Kamala Harris Says She Has “Concerns” About Trans Student Athletes
https://www.them.us/story/kamala-harris-trans-student-athletes-position-concernsOpen linkView original on lemmy.world118
Comments147https://www.them.us/story/kamala-harris-trans-student-athletes-position-concernsOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
I’m also concerned for their safety and wellbeing. That’s why you’re concerned, right Mrs. Harris?
…That’s why you’re concerned, right?
Concerned about, not for.
Fucking spineless weathervane. No wonder she lost. Focus group driven decision making.
Oh look it’s not just Newsom and that rep from Georgia anymore. The spineless democrats are testing the waters now to see how throwing trans people under the bus will go.
It is not throwing trans people under the bus to keep trans women out of competitive female sports.
This needs to stop being a hill that people want to die on. It's fucking rediculous to argue they should be allowed to participate in a discriminatory category we created intentionally to allow non-competitive persons to have their own competition.
Sorry trans women, theres literally one extremely specific thing you aren't allowed to do. I support you in literally any other life endeavor, or in playing that sport recreationally or competitively in an open gender category.
Separate but equal, total neolib move that’s super classy. “Your discomfort is tolerable because I don’t have to deal with it”
Also this is not the only example of dems throwing trans under the bus. The far more egregious example is newsom going on right winger podcasts and giving validity to the utter bullshit of the cass review and the idea that you shouldn’t be allowed to transition until your mid 20s (plus all the sports bullshit). Backing legislature that is anti trans too. not just sports stuff, though there is a lot of that. The NDAA banning trans care for any military children was voted in by several democrats and some states did the same for Medicaid with dem support. Texas’s bathroom bill had some dem support. Memorializing Charlie Kirk, a total shithead who was openly and vehemently anti trans. Etc
No spine, no moral code. End result is a minority class that has constant existential anxiety because one side actively wants to destroy them and the other is like “supporting you is like a whole thing, I’m just in this for the donor money”
Do you understand that you're implying all women are physically inferior to all men? That a man could never lose a race to a woman?
Or do you think we should always exclude all the top athletes because everyone else would also feel “discomfort from losing to [people] they have no chance of beating?"
Disregarding the rest, transwomen are not all born with typical XY chromosomes and the XX/XY karyotypes for sex designation are a lot more complicated than xx=lady and xy=guy.
Aside from extra or damaged chromosomes, chimerism, and other genetic differences, there are mitigating factors in genetic expression that can affect development in a number of ways. As one example, there are women with XY chromosomes who don't even know it, and recent studies have found a lot more of them than previously thought to exist.
So, even before taking into account gender dysphoria, sex isn't that cut and dry in the first place.
Like clockwork, the censorship never fails.
Everyone should make a habit of checking the modlogs to see what these tyrants are trying to keep from us. It's despicable.
In this case, I'm being censored for saying: "Wouldn't women have to deal with "discomfort" from losing to males they have no chance of beating?"
checks modlog
I don't think that was it.
Your rhetoric matches that of notable asshole Riley Gaines who competed and tied against Lia Thompson at UPenn then went on to become a maga darling on this issue specifically and eventually just on trans hatred. The linked article is about her rhetoric and how she believes trans sports is the wedge issue to remove trans rights altogether by progressively erasing more and more. They won’t stop here.
Otherwise the trans issue has been debated to death but essentially if someone has been on hrt for a significant period of time the picture is far muddier than what you portray.
I don't know who those people are and don't have to answer for anything they've said or done. Stay on topic.
Are you trying to suggest that it would be acceptable to have MTF transpeople competing with women if they are "on hrt for a significant period of time"?
You can say that if it's your argument. You don't have to say "things are muddier" and expect me to fill in the gaps for you.
Don’t order me around. Maybe face the fact that you are bedfellows with fascist garbage that are using this wedge issue as a foot in the door to completely eradicate what they call “trans ideology” (a fucked up term).
I do have to say that because the issue is overly nuanced and you appear to want to dumb it down to a single issue. Thus: muddier. Hrt for 1-2+ years significantly lowers muscle mass and upper and lower body strength. Hemoglobin is lowered and stamina is impacted. Many of the competitive advantages are neutralized, but not all. Depending on the sport essentially all are. Wingspan and hand size do not change (unless transition started very early, which is another issue that right wing assholes try to block, but that’s a whole separate thing). So what sport? Rowing? More debatable. Golf? Less debatable. Transition started very early, like 7-8 years old? Less debatable.
See? Muddy, nuanced. But again, this has been discussed to death but you morons dont listen and keep just focusing on its not fair because biology even though your understanding of biology apparently ended in 8th grade with a c- in the class
Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm not looking for you to "dumb it down." You need to take a stance and own it if you want to say anything of value.
It's a yes or no question, but you seem to be incapable of giving a yes or no answer. If it depends on the sport, then say "yes for this sport, but no for this one." You can't say "more or less debatable" and then say "it's been discussed to death" as though that means anything.
It's been discussed so much that you're unable to take a stand? Seems like more discussion is required, but like I said you don't seem capable of having one. If you can't stick your neck out and say "it's okay after this criteria is met for trans women to compete with women in this sport," then what are even trying to argue?
The real problem here is that you're afraid of your own argument, so you want other people to make it for you. That's just not good enough.
It's ridiculous your politicians are concerning themselves with school sporting or just sporting events in general.
Leave the schools and sport orgs to decide if they can compete.
There are much more serious problems to deal with than this nonsense
Politicians shouldn't be regulating sports. Period.
Sure, but many sports have banned it without the government's intervention. So my point still stands.
Do you have examples of non government intervention here? It seems like most organizations were in the process of rewriting their rules to be more inclusive which is why conservatives turned this into a panic.
FINA (The world Swimming body) banned them a few years ago. https://www.npr.org/2022/06/19/1106173020/swimming-bans-transgender-women
World Boxing banned them recently. https://worldboxing.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/World-Boxing-Sex-Eligibility-Policy_FINAL_20Aug25.pdf
World Rugby banned them as well. https://www.npr.org/2022/06/19/1106173020/swimming-bans-transgender-women
World Athletics goes even further, banning any transgender woman who went through male puberty from rankings AND also banning some female at birth women in the ban if they have certain sex-disorders and don't keep their testosterone levels extremely low.
I'm not sure any of these groups are writing them to be more inclusive, unless they simply had no policy before. Lots of the groups that allowed them are even increasing the restrictions, since the old guidelines around testosterone less than 10 nmol seem to have been found to be insufficient and some of those groups have dropped it to 5 instead.
Testosterone is a hell of a performance enhancing drug.
In that first article it notes that the instigating decision was the olympic comittee relaxing testosterone requirements and allowing individual sports to make determinations.
The FINA does straight up allow trans men into men's sports. If you read the FINA policies one of the ways for a trans woman to compete is to have started puberty blockers at 12 yrs old and maintain normal female levels (less than 15 nmol) whereas the target for therapy is 50 nmol (standard male levels are 300+ with 500 being typical)
So the weird thing here is that it's not uncommon to see cis women with ~20-30nmol especially among career athletes where they're already selecting for oddities. The criticism here seems understandandable; I'm not sure its entirely about fairness.
I think the thing that's crazy about that is that it basically excludes every trans person because its almost impossible to get on blockers that early.
The boxing rules are just sad. How dumb.
Its important to note though these are international orgs targetting top athletes. I'm not sure governments can regulate them. The state intervention being requested is to remove like 2k kids nationwide from like junior varsity teams.
Trans men in men's categories is a non-issue. It's a non-issue for a reason, they have no advantage and they're usually at a disadvantage. There are like a half dozen famous attempts of trans men who have tried to break into competitive mens sports, and none of them have been successful at climbing the rankings or winning any significant competitions, any medals I've seen are like (they won silver at the 34-40 age category for Duathalon - This was Chris Mosier) where yes it's technically competitive, but nobody is winning any prize money.
The public generally speaking doesn't have any issue with trans men competing against men.
This is the opposite in women's sports, despite making up such a small portion of the population, there have been more than a few instances of trans women medaling in international competition.
Lia Thomas did such a significant amount of harm to the trans image because of her choices in this regard, but she is living proof that transitioning CAN be unfair in women's sports. When something can be unfair in competition, it needs to be banned.
At the end of the day, I wish trans women all the opportunities of the world, except competitive women's sports.
Calling women athletes “non-competitive” tells us what you think of women athletes.
There are competitive sports where gender literally doesn’t matter (like darts.) There are sports that require subdivisions within them to allow equally skilled athletes of different physiological builds to compete (boxing.)
The thing is, sports regulatory bodies were already making the decisions of how trans and intersex athletes can compete. To say that trans athletes should be kept out of all competitive female sports shows that you either have it in for trans people or you just don’t understand sports.
And no one yet has given a coherent argument for why the government should be involved.
You and I both know that women are not competitive with men in most sports. You pretending that they are (or could be) is just a bad faith argument.
The darts argument is also in bad faith, there's no restriction in the primary darts tournament series based on gender at all, and they do not have a separate women's category for the normal tournaments. There are a handful of women's only events, but they are not part of the main tours in which anyone can compete.
Find me an example of a professional female boxer beating a professional male boxer within the same weight class. I'll wait. Here's arguably one of the best female boxers, with a 54-0 record and multiple world titles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucia_Rijker, She got KOed in the second round by an amateur kickboxer, who was male and 10 pounds lighter than her (1-2 weight classes down depending on the ruleset). He wasn't as good on technique, but just cleaned her out with more speed and power anyways.
The whole point of having a women's category is to allow fair competition. Allowing trans women to compete breaks that fairness principle. Just like any sort of doping breaks that fairness principle. If something is possibly unfair, then it's unfair. Even if most people don't gain an advantage, it's still unfair. Unfairness cannot be allowed in competition, it ruins the whole thing.
You're right that the government shouldn't be involved, but they were getting banned by sports bodies left right and center for competing unfairly, so it's the same outcome. The government should still back off and lets sports bodies do it, but it won't change the inevitable outcome.
This applies to you and your position at least as much as the people you're talking about
It really doesn't. The polling on this issue is very clear, even trans supporters aren't very in favour of it and its causing a massive backlash against trans rights in general.
Ooo yeah let's be concerned over the, what .002% of our population doing things they wanna do and being who they wanna be. Yeah that's a big talking point when 80% of the rest of the country can't afford rent.
Fuck. Just leave trans people alone already Jesus Christ...
I was about to say its's 0.75% for USA, but your are probably right once you factor in how many Trans people then have to care about getting into a sport.
USA seems to think every citizen plays or watches sports.
I have had coworkers and randos ask if I saw the game last night, so I have to ask which game? They mention a football/hockey/baseball game. I reply that I don't watch team sports. They then continue to talk about the game like I'm a decades old fan catching up on what I missed. At this stage I've tuned out the details and am actually wondering how their whole life centers around somebody elses accomplishments in a city they have never been to. And also wondering how they missed the cue that I'm not interested in sports.
But that is USA; identity based on guns and sports. Trans somehow becomes an attack on their identity.
The US's sports obsession is one of the contributors to rising fascism.
The passive but passionate adherence to teams or individual competitors is a form of atavistic servility that is easily repurposed into tribalism.
Who cares what kamala thinks or says?
She lost, quite predictably, after being annointed by establishment tools that brought us hillary and joe, and will fail us with newsom if they can.
Do not follow their lead. They are doomed to fail in unseating r's let alone restoring society.
Pretty much. It's another "Hey let's demonize those nasty Democrats!" because those get clicks. Because those conservative stories about raping kids and shooting up a place doesn't get any traction anymore.
We already know who's most likely to rape kids and shoot places up, and it's sure as shit not trans people. It's just more right-wing projection.
She's trying hard to get back in the game, so she can lose again and lock us even further into fascist rule.
Her willingness to keep showing up is reminiscent of the Washington Generals.
Jesus fucking Christ, sports shouldn't be a political issue at all. It's literally a fucking game, the government and politicians shouldn't be involved in this shit at all in the first place. We should care about as much about Kamala's opinion on the WNBA as we do about her opinion on Minecraft. The leagues are privately-owned companies, let them run their fucking company how they want (which up to this point, has been trans-inclusive).
Agreed, but people are sooooo into sports and their teams. Sometimes I think we've turned politics into sports teams, making bipartisan politics harder to achieve.
Why do you think GW Bush's daddy bought him a baseball team, and why do you think Trump was involved in WWE? The same rube-manipulation techniques that are used in sports are used in fascist politics.
only sometimes?
Generally yes. But the government also enforces civil rights, including against sex and gender discrimination, especially at public (i.e. government-funded) universities.
Everything that comes put of Kamala's mouth concerns culture war crap. I'm convinced she's just a MAGA sock puppet, because not only does she have no chance of winning over republican voters, but also now alienated democrat voters with this crap. Unbelievable!
Ignore her, and newsom. Jon stewart 2028.
Did no one actually read the article past the vaguely misleading headline?
Oh, so they are going to mandate weight and height classes across the board for all sports and stop separating sport by gender?
Prior to Republicans passing laws to outright ban transgender athletes from participating altogether, they actually had standards in place for how long athletes had to be on HRT, before they were allowed to compete. By all physical accounts, this meant that those athletes had comparable muscle mass and bone densities to the gender they identified as.
What else would you expect? Even between biological girls of the same age, there are significant differences between individual athletes. Once you include training, diet and other normal genetic factors...the differences between a trans athlete on HRT and a cis athlete is actually well within those standard margins. Any advantage they might have, comes from skill and training alone.
It was more of a joke in how ridiculous it would be to implement such a system... the logistics would be crazy for team sports...
But like you said, it would be easier to just let them play...
If you want to be crazy you can add a new format for anyone, but men... and make the men's category just open so that anyone can join...
My problem with the article is how much air Americans give to the topic of trans athletes in sports when Americans have more pressing problems. Healthcare, affordability of life, violence are real issues affecting Americans much more than sports games. I don't think giving air to this conversation is helping Americans.
That's the entire point of all these "culture war" issues. They're used as distractions for more pressing matters, that the ruling class really doesn't want to address, because they know conservatives will be outraged by them, and progressives won't be able to just let people be victimized, for no reason. If the public tires itself out, fighting over topics like these, there's a better chance we won't have the energy to demand real action on more expensive things.
When the folks across the aisle you're champing at the bit to reach demonstrate goodwill and common sense, maybe you might have a ghost of a chance. Until such time, you're validating the position that trans women have no place in established sports.
So...until then, goodwill and common sense shouldn't apply to your approach? What policy should you adopt, until the other side decides to get their shit together?
Should we advocate for exactly the kind of hyperbolic position that Republicans use as a strawman, to argue against inclusion?
There's no peer-reviewed, statistically sound evidence that trans people have unfair advantages in sports.
Not that sports should matter that much.
Neoliberal garbage. This is why she lost to literal fascists.
And behold the thing that I said was going to happen, has happened. More democrats engaging in transphobia to try to pry votes away from the fascist party by being fascist-lite.
Can we stop pretending the democrats can be reformed now? Their leadership has time and time again proven they do not give one fuck about progressive politics.
Why should I give a shit what a politician says about fucking sports, period?
This ends up being very effective as a wedge issue for Republicans, because they can make shit up about the other side, and run against the lies they tell themselves, because the truthful situation is complicated and the lie is simpler to understand.
Some sports are strictly separated by gender, and some are not. Generally speaking, it's people who administer the leagues that make that decision. Everything from pro leagues down to rec leagues will have rules based on gender, and they are created by whoever administers the leagues to foster competition.
I don't feel qualified to know which sports confer a distinct advantage to people who go through male puberty. It certainly isn't all of them, but there must be some where it makes sense to exclude humans who have gone through male puberty from women's leagues. But, I don't feel most politicians are qualified to know that, either. People who know each sport best should make that decision, based on science and the knowledge of their sport, and politicians should just butt out. But you get better soundbites by lying about it and airing grievances about it than by being rational.
It's only a wedge issue because of people like Harris. If she had a spine and decent values, she could have explained that actually trans athletes in sports are not a serious concern, because look at the data FFS.
My first reaction especially given other things I've heard about this book was Wtf is wrong with this lady?
The full quote is not quite as bad as I assumed:
Every time somebody brings up concerns over trans athletes I always think about these images of Katherine Switzer running the Boston Marathon:
I question why we have gender divisions in the first place, bc it's definitely not that society was ever concerned about fairness. The reason gender divisions were created in the first place, is the same reason we originally had racial based divisions until one day we didn't.
That guy wasn't physically assaulting Switzer and trying to stop her from becoming the first woman to run the Boston Marathon bc he was concerned she may be at an unfair disadvantage. He was trying to stop her bc back when the marathon first started somebody made "No girls allowed!" one of the rules, and this guy was uncomfortable with change. It seems pretty obvious now, that was just a dumb and unnecessary rule to begin with.
If this is all really about fairness like people claim, then maybe we should consider just nixing gender divisions entirely and moving to something like weight class or skill level divisions for competitive sports.
There are plenty of sports where gender divisions basically dont exist until you hit the college level. Hockey is a prime example. There are all-girls select youth teams, but all teams that arent exclusively for girls are open to anyone that can hang. There are plenty of girls that play competitively with boys through highschool hockey. There are plenty of women who play with men at the adult level in beer leagues and the like. But at the juniors, college, pro, and olympic levels they are gender divided.
Realistically at the highest levels of play some division does make sense, as that is where the highest level of physicality is allowed, and generally that is the reason why it can be less safe for women to be playing alongside men. As well as the fact that few women would be playing college or pro hockey if there were not gender divisions.
That said however, I see no reason why the odd woman that can hang in upper levels hockey shouldnt be allowed to play, nor would they be barred from doing so if they could. Likewise I can see how forcing womens upper leagues of the sport to accept cis men who cant hang in the upper levels of mens hockey would push women out of the sport. So it makes sense that they have exclusivity there.
Its one of those issues where I have no issue with gender divisions at the highest levels, in the interest of allowing a professional level of womens sport to exist, but at the same time trying to apply that same logic to youth sports completely falls apart. All youth sports should be just be open gendered competitions. If you see open-gendered hockey at the 12-14 year old level the girls are often 1-2ft taller than any of the boys and physically the more dominant group, and yet no one says the boys’ safety is at risk over it.
Not to mention that lost in all of the trans fear-mongering is the fact that when people take hormones their bodies significantly change. If someone born male starts hormone therapy to transition, their feet will shrink, they will lose muscle mass, so on and so forth. So at the end of the day they truly have zero physical advantages over cis women they would compete with in sport. Women’s leagues in the upper levels of a sport make sense, but it also makes perfect sense to allow transwomen to play with them. People dont seem to understand that male physicality is the result of a continual supply of hormones making you look as you are, not solely the result of past hormonally influenced growth. If you cut off the hormones making you a big strong man, you will no longer be big nor strong
I think divisions at the highest level are understandable, but does it absolutely have to be gender based division?
For contact sports like hockey, it would be interesting to see if you really went with a strict division by something like weight class how much would gender really change competitiveness?
Even in gender based divisions for noncontact sports like basketball, individual skill level can be more important than mass. Mugsy Bogues was a pretty rare case, but he was 5'3" and holding his own with guys that were well over 6' tall.
Maybe divisions with some combination of weight and skill level? Or some other factor? Idk I feel like we'll never really know until somebody is willing to try.
Generally they are gendered based on physical purposes, but what youre saying makes some sense yeah. In hockey, its gendered both because men play a more physical game and because historically (at least until more recently) women havent had equal access to the sport at the youth level. So both physicality and skill are lacking among women at the pro level. If you forced a women’s league to be open to cismen then cismen would push out all of the women, as they have had more time to develop their skill. The end result would be that many women wouldnt be able to hang well enough to compete with men just as they cannot compete on a mens olympic or pro team. So having a womens exclusive league makes sense. But there also is no rational reason to bar transwomen from competing, since they are also women.
Basketball is the same, and is also a contact sport really. In womens ball, the three point line is shallower than it is in mens basketball because of physicality differences. Mens basketball is also often played more physical and less technical. Womens sports in general often lean on technical skill over physical dominance, which personally I find more interesting to watch. But yeah, there is no reason to bar women from competing with women at high levels of sport just because some of those women might have been born male
The best way for us to move towards having open classes of as much of all sports as is possible would be to make youth sports open-gendered competition, so that any given sport ultimately moves towards neutral rules and styles of play. No different three point lines, etc. And allow women to develop technical skills that can work around their opponents physical advantages the same way that small men are able to find ways to do it in pro mens sports. But that takes time to develop, we cant just drop the rules without that development and expect women not to get clobbered by men when they arent used to competing with men under mens rules and styles of play. Equal access to sport and development is crucial to creating the kind of world that youre talking about, and were pretty far from that
The NFL already allows women. But I don't think there are any female players, due to physical differences and lack of developmental leagues, like you mentioned.
I think they've had female referees, though.
Men have the advantage. I mean high school boys out compete woman Olympians. Sorry but testosterone is a hell of a drug.
Bc testosterone helps build secondary sex characteristics like muscle and bone mass. Other than that it's not some kind of secret formula for success.
If you had a male and female matched pound for pound for muscle and skill level why would testosterone matter?
There was even a woman goaltender for the Tampa Bay Lightning organization in the 1990s! She tried out for the team and was in minor league hockey for five years.
She did play in two preseason NHL games, in 1991 (allowing two goals on nine shots) and 1993.
And we all know, sports is the most important thing right now. Or ever.
Especially when no trans athletes are at the top of any sport they're involved in.
It's all about harassment of a small, vulnerable minority. It has nothing to do with fairness.
This shit again? I can't believe we're still talking about this like it's an issue that matters AT ALL.
Out of all the trans issues you care about trans sports? It's almost like you want people to hate us. Who am I kidding that's exactly why. Fucking right wing shills in the DNC. Out of every issue with trans people, Americas by majority are supportive except for mf trans sports, because of course it's extremely stupid, especially if you aren't going to let kids have some hrt when they want to transition. No coincidence there. Of course that's what they will pick to run on because the DNC is controlled by the same fucking hateful dipshits that control the rest of the state. The DNC will do everything in its power to make sure the Republicans win because they know their voters are stupid enough to help them implement a police state and mass surveillance and turn America into an autocracy. Fuck the DNC.
Don't forget in the last election you didn't hear a peep out of the fucking DNC only for their candidate to pull out right at the end to guarantee trump a win. That should tell you how Americans really feel. The only people who vote Republicans at this point are a few mentally retarded people and some boomers with dementia. They lie about everything.
Yeah, well, expressing concern about trans people being killed by Nazis might be a bit risky. Far easier to parrot inane policies developed by right-wing fanatics whose only goal in life is to hurt people.
This is why those from the soggy center should never be let into office. We need someone who's going to clean house, and put an end to fascism and the religious right in the US and, if possible, globally, before they round us up and kill us.
Trans sports isn't a good issue. It's the least popular of all trans issues and also is the only actual position where the Republicans have the moral high ground. Trans issues aren't good to run on anyways because only a bit over half of the country is in favor of trans rights outside of medical access and stuff. The bathroom stuff is more reasonable. You can have some fair laws around this, like people have to be on hormones for over a year or something before they can use the other bathroom. The trans sport things is unfortunate. There just isn't really a good trans friendly solution that isn't really unfair for cis students. The only way a trans person can compete fairly in women's sports is if they are on hormones for years.
There is no goddamn problem! Fuck sake I should not have to choose fascist asshole or shifty semi fascist.
People are already getting ready to make you fall in line.
The left is full of cowards.
This post has nothing whatsoever to do with the left. Why are you lying?
Just got finished telling off a useful idiot who was trying to get me to fall in line.
Right so it actually has nothing to do with what you commented on. Got it.
Yes it does. He mentioned he "should not have to choose fascist asshole or shifty semi fascist," and I responded with how people are already trying to make us fall in line and accept the semi-fascist.
You should brush up on your reading comprehension!
There it is. Democrats could easily walk back stances on guns and it would hurt them less than this pollster brained idiocy.
All democrats have to say is "government has more important things to do than regulate sports, there are sports commissions that have asked and answered these questions. This is politicians seeking another way to intrude upon our lives."
America has real problems! Healthcare, food, jobs, affordability. Talking about trans athlete's possible competitive advantages is such a misalignment of our priorities.
Yeah, but shitlibs won't talk about those things because they want to keep the corporate bribe money flowing.
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. There is no such thing as values on the liberal wing of politics, just as there are no values on the MAGA wing. As soon as capital is involved, they will drop anything they stood for.
Ah yes. BoTh sIdEs
I'm queer. I'm not falling for your bullshit. Libs will drop trans people as soon as they can if it means appeasing their corporate overlords. We've seen it all over the "civilized" world. They did it in the UK, they're doing it right now in the US.
Possibly, but third party isn't an option. You can and should criticize Democrats, but calling them fascists and the same as maga is pretty unproductive.
This comment section could be a case study about how China and Russia have used wedge issues to divide America. This kneejerk bullshit is why we have an orange goomba in the white house.
It's not China and Russia, it's both Republicans and Democrats being fascist Nazis, only one is slightly nicer and more convincing that they give a shit about human rights.
This is a tactic used by far right parties for much longer than China and Russia have had the chance to interfere with US and Europe politics.
Republicans picked these wedge issues all by themselves, following the manual of fascism to the T.
Ding ding ding
Also, trump has been an enormous wedge in US and world society, arguably his worst crime of all
I'd be more concerned about the group responsible for more than 50% of violent crimes, but I guess we're allowed to be scared of people playing sports too.
Absolutely painful to watch progressives here already trying to lose 2026.
A post about Kamala Harris has fuck-all to do with progressives. Why are you scapegoating?
Ohh good, please more purity tests!
This isn't a "purity test" thing; this is a "quit blatantly lying" thing. Harris is a liberal, not a progressive. She's not even trying and failing to be in that category; she just doesn't give a fuck to begin with.
This shouldn’t be an issue. Both sides should stop trying to mandate this. There should be men’s sports, women’s sports and co-ed sports, even at the pro level. Give athletes the freedom of choice and let them sort themselves.
Having 3 buckets, one third of which any one person is banned from participating in over arbitrary generic markers, doesn't really sound like "freedom of choice".
I have concerns too. The most pressing concerns are about how they're being threatened and bullied, and centrists like Harris and Newsom are facilitating it.
Kamala is horrible.
ITT: "I haven't read the article but I'm going to sit on a high horse and claim I'm the enlightened one anyway!!!!1"
Can somebody explain to me why we shouldn’t have a trans league or allow them to play with the opposite gender? There’s a reason we have men’s and women’s leagues. Trans women can have a big advantage over many cis women. What am I missing here?
A few years ago, I played roller derby. It's one of the most trans inclusive sports on the planet. Trans women are explicitly welcome to play in the womens leagues.
I live in Australia, in a city of a couple of million people. We had 4 or so different derby "clubs", and each one of those could field anywhere between 1 and 3 derby teams of various levels. Once you looked outside of the city to include towns and smaller cities within a couple of hours drive, there were around 10 or so "teams". I was one of 2 trans folk active in my city at the time (3 if you count someone who was playing on the mens team)
Now, every capitol city in Australia has a similar situation, though the bigger cities can field a few more teams than my city could.
At one tournament weekend, with a whole year of planning, folk decided to put together a trans team for a demonstration game. It took the whole country to fill that team, and they played the game, without having had any chance to practice together.
There wasn't enough trans folk to make two teams, let alone a meaningful season, with playoffs and multiple rounds against different teams.
"Just make a trans league" has the same meaning as "trans people aren't allowed to participate".
You could make a trans and cis league, keep cis league and then eventually create a trans league.
Notably, this is so typical of the issues we face. It's a type of (subtle) transphobia called "Just asking questions" or, more rudely "JAQing off"
You "just asked a question" about trans leagues.
I made a multi paragraph response, from a first hand, lived experience.
Your response in turn, did not connect or engage with a single thing I wrote, despite my entire post being a reply to your question, and was basically just another question, shifting the goal posts to the try and arrive at an answer that aligns with the perspective you clearly already hold.
A perspective clearly on display in your other engagements in this thread, where you haven't once given ground, taken anything on board or shifted your position in response to someone giving you an answer to your questions. All you have done is push for exclusion, and then just shift the board around to push from a different direction.
You may not be actively transphobic, but you are doing the work of transphobes either way, because you phrase your questions as if you're open to hearing the responses from folk, but keep pushing for exclusion, no matter what answer you get.
Sorry I didn’t remark on your experience playing roller derby. I absolutely responded to what you said by saying that they could create a separate league that combines people because there aren’t enough numbers. That was your whole point with your big long answer. Don’t need to respond to every piece it. You may not be a pretentious but you’re doing the work of pretentious people.
Trans leagues don't work because there aren't enough trans people. That's not going to change. Trans people will always be a minority. We won't suddenly get the numbers to support segregated teams.
Your solution is delay segregation, so that we can be segregated in the future. It so fundamentally misses the heart of the issue... Segregation is the problem... If cis folk would just "not" segregate trans folk, the problem would be gone. So your solution is to start with the point we want to end up at, where no one is excluded, until we get to a point where exclusion is possible, and then do it!
Yeah, because my attitude is the real issue here, not the ongoing campaign of exclusion and hatred targeting trans folk...
There already is segregation in sports. This is not new and for some it’s not some targeted attack on trans people. It’s coming from the same reason we separate men and women’s sports. In fact, it’s quite inclusionary to try to segregate trans sports because that’s what we do already. One day trans people may no longer be the minority they are and you might be thinking, hey I’d like to have a trans exclusive league.
The whole idea is to have a league where people are cool with playing with trans people or even make it a league where anybody can play, but also keep leagues for just cis people. Then if you want have a trans league.
It literally is. The transphobic organisations pushing this openly admit that it's a wedge tactic, a first step to make future trans segregation easier.
You can rest assured, we will not reach a day when I enjoy being segregated
So, "open" leagues tend to just be mens leagues, with the odd adventurous cis woman, and the gender diverse people that have been pushed out of their other spaces.
And I don't want to play with men for the same reason that most cis women don't want to play with men. On average, they are stronger, faster and put me at a higher risk of injury.
And it doesn't matter how "open" the league is, when the majority of people in it are cis men, it's deeply uncomfortable to navigate that space as anyone who isn't a cis man.
I'd assume there aren't actually enough trans women trying to play sports to form a league. NCAA President Charlie Baker testified in December 2024 that he knows of fewer than ten transgender college student-athletes among 510,000 athletes total.
You could make a league that trans and cis people could play in, and keep a league for cis. Then eventually start trans league.
Guess who else has an advantage over many other cis women? Cis women with "superior" genetics. We don't bar them. In fact, finding them seems to be one of the main drives of sports.
Usain Bolt has such a massive genetic advantage over everyone else and no one is calling for him to be banned from running, or to be forced in to his own league. Same with Michael Phelps. Let's not even get started on tall people in basket ball.
A person's sex is just more genetics.
Well, there is Imane Khelif. There was a push to bar her from boxing. But that kind of thing happens very rarely.
The push to ban her was because of a conspiracy theory that she wasn't actually born female, wasn't it? I think that puts her in to the "ban because she's trans" category, rather than the "ban her for superior genetics" category. Ie, without the current "trans sports panic" no one would have even considered banning her.
I think the reason they were accusing her of being trans was just because she's naturally a good boxer.
The difference is HRT could be considered as gaming the system whilst being born that way is luck of the draw.
Michael Phelps has gentics made for swimming that allow him to perform multiple strokes to perfection. He's considered a lucky man. If there was a pill one could take to attain such superhuman abilities. It would be considered doping, and rightfully so.
Being trans is being born that way.
How so? The classifications are based on sex and not gender
That's irrelevant. Being trans isn't "gaming the system" it's just something you're born being. No one is going to transition for an advantage in a ball game and it's ridiculous to even suggest it.
Right! No one is doing so now, but there's nothing stopping people from doing so if it becomes so normalized. It's a reductio ad absurdum of your argument. You're acting like this is the first time legislation can be passed in favour of a group of people such that it can't be abused by others strictly for personal gain.
Furthermore, just because people's intentions for transitioning now aren't chiefly to obtain an advantage in a ball game doesn't mean that they DON'T actually possess an advantage...
Also you need to provide a justification for why my initial distinction is "irrelevant". The classifications into men's and women's sports are based on sex and not gender.
No one would ever do it and it's ridiculous and transphobic to suggest it. Do you think a cis man would actually choose to live like this for a possibly minor advantage in women's sports? It's a joke.
I'm sure someone might try, but once the realities of gender dysphoria sink in and their boobs start growing they'd realize it isn't worth transitioning to the wrong gender just to be able to dunk in the WNBA or whatever. I don't think you realize how fucking horrible it is for your body to mutate into a (WRONG HORRIBLE NO NO NO) form that you hate. No one would choose to live like that for what might ultimately be a very minor advantage. Stop entertaining that as a legitimate concern.
Whether we should segregate sports by sex instead of other considerations is a separate conversation that other people in this thread want to have, but that's besides the point I'm trying to make. I'm telling you, gender dysphoria isn't something someone would choose.
Gender dysphoria is real. Stop trivializing it.
The first is that trans women do not have a big advantage over cis women. They have, at best, a very slight advantage, depending on their time on HRT and age.
The second is that there isn't a lot of trans people. Trans people make up around 2-3% of the population, so they would have around 1/30th of the number of teammates in their school. That would be difficult to make a full team around. And because they're segregated out, they would need to find other teams to play against, as well.
The third thing you're missing is that you really only care about trans women in this debate. Do you care if trans men compete against cis men? They compete at very similar levels, too, and if you think being born as a woman is a disadvantage, then why do they do just as well after transitioning?
And the last thing is that we have gendered leagues due to a sexist history behind sports. Women weren't allowed to compete in a variety of sports for a long time. Women's leagues were initially created for the same reason black leagues were created. We have kept them because they are a really lazy way to determine what category of play you are in, as though they act similar to weight classes in wrestling. But athletes within the same sex can compete at completely different abilities for different reasons. Taller players can have a much bigger advantage against shorter players in a ton of sports, so why don't we use height as a determiner of which league you play in instead?
only considered trans women because generally in sports you’re trying to be stronger and larger. Trans men can do that and have the disadvantage.
I get what you’re saying about separate leagues but the strongest and tallest men would have an advantage over the strongest and tallest women, skill aside.
Maybe just make a mixed league that everybody is cool with playing in and keep separate leagues too.
No, I get it. But, you're using what you feel is true versus what is true. The "advantage" you're talking about isn't significant among any study, ranging from a 7% advantage in some athletic categories to a 13% disadvantage in others.
Competitive sporting associations have rules and regulations for trans athletes competing in sex-segregated leagues, and they typically involve around two years on HRT and I'm not sure if you're aware of the side effects of starting HRT, but athletes typically see substantial muscle loss. These competitive organizations do not see trans athletes excel when following these rules. And that is because trans athletes aren't superior to cis athletes.
The strongest and tallest man probably has some advantages in some sports over the tallest and strongest woman, but you need to compare the strongest and tallest trans man to the man and trans woman to woman because those comparisons are surprisingly more in favor of the cis athlete than you would probably like for a whole host of reasons.
In sports every little bit matters. There’s not enough data among athletes to support what you’re saying. Some studies show that there is still an advantage. What you feel is true is true based on cherry-picking studies.
Unless you can point to all of the trans athletes dominating sports right now, my point is pretty easy to defend. If it is a competitive advantage, there would be multiple trans athletes at the top of women's sports regardless of how uncommon being trans is, and there simply isn't.
You're saying there's not enough data, but you're also saying that it shouldn't be allowed, therefore ensuring there will never be enough data using, again, the exact same excuses for making black leagues (competitive advantage). And to accuse me of cherry-picking while explicitly doing so is ironic, since I was using aggregated studies.
It would be simpler for you to claim that you will never accept trans people, instead of trying to use logic to defend your stance, because you're wrong.
You’re assuming a lot. I’ll never accept trans people? That’s a big statement. Sorry to have offended you. Hope you have a nice day.
Wait, where are you going? You still haven't shown this group of trans people that are the top of women's sports.
Statistically, if there is an advantage, trans people would be the top of their sports, given that all other factors would be normalized. So, you simply have to show that there is a congregation of trans people at the top. That would inarguably prove that you are correct and there is a competitive advantage to being trans. If you leave, I will continue to be under the (correct) assumption that there is no advantage to being trans.
Can you give some examples of these sports?
When trans women go on GAHT/HRT, our bodies change a lot. I've lost considerable muscle mass and strength versus just over a year ago (it was very noticeable in the garden this year, oof). The lack of testosterone also changes your mental state and tones down the stereotypical male competitive nature. You literally become softer.
My personal opinion is that if you're on hormones for at least a few years, you've shown that you clearly want to play and shouldn't be disqualified, and at the very least be given a chance to participate. As far as I'm concerned, this entire thing is politically-charged and is about as interesting as acetaminophen and vaccines causing autism.
What you don't hear is trans men wanting to compete in men's sports. They need to have a voice too, as rare as it might be.
Not enough trans anthletes to warrant their own league. Who would even watch it?
Just get rid of all sports in educational institutions and make them all private clubs. Problem solved
You know, they used to not separate sports by gender, until the ladies started beating the men. Then all of a sudden, nah we gotta split em up. So, even if their argument had any kind of validity, it still doesn't.
Right now, women are allowed to compete with men in the NBA, NFL, and MLB.
We never see them participating because they physically cannot compete with the males.
According to whom? The Heraean Games were held in conjunction with the ancient Greek Olympics. Are you saying that they were designed to spare men's feelings, or are you saying that the tradition of sparing men's feelings was already in place in the ancient world?
Sure she supports genocide, but she'll protect those trans people you progressives care about for some stupid reason. Fuck, most of them aren't even billionaires.
Later: on this subject she also agrees with charlie kirk, a good christian and family man who never said anything unpleasant don't fire me.