US to withdraw from NATO under Republican bill
https://www.newsweek.com/nato-us-withdraw-senator-mike-lee-republican-effort-2090914Open linkView original on lemmy.ca787
Comments326https://www.newsweek.com/nato-us-withdraw-senator-mike-lee-republican-effort-2090914Open linkView original on lemmy.ca
Look how stupid your country is, to hand the death of NATO to Putin because you’re on his side.
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Fuck you.
We're pretty pissed off at ourselves right now too. I'm sorry things got this far and wish I could offer more than fear and frustration...
I keep seeing this sentiment and I don't understand it. Are you speaking purely out of anger and ignorance? The recent No Kings protest was either the third or first largest protest in the history of the U.S.A. and some communities have literally been running ICE gestapo out of their towns.
The Christian Conservative minority have gridlocked the American government, silently stacked the judicial system in their favor, and partnered with the American oligarchy to bankroll fascists and create the most pervasive, effective, and enduring propaganda machines ever seen (that's already worked its way into Australia and had been finding footholds in Europe).
The idea that Americans aren't doing anything about this or that there could ever possibly be a single unified movement that magically fixes "the issue" is incoherently reductive and impractical. If I see a comrade struggling for air I don't yell at them to just breathe. I help them remove the pig standing on their neck. What are YOU doing to lend a hand or show lost comrades that there's still hope?
It definitely isn't.
It really sounds like you cowards are holding REALLY tightly to the same talking points- so fucking desperate not to face your inadequacy and complete lack of spine. It’s gross, honestly.
Guess what, you’re not “one of the good ones.”
Your comment makes no sense and helps no one.
Coward.
They just had the largest protest in their history, have a handful of cities under military intervention to stop the protests, and are close to elect somebody that promises to fight against the federal government as mayor of their largest city.
What exactly do you expect them to do?
They’re likely expecting what we here in America call a “second amendment solution”, while ignoring that anyone who tries that is going up against the most powerful military to ever exist and will just get themselves killed.
It has taken the religious right almost 50 years of planning to take over government to this point. We’re not going to undo their bullshit overnight. But at least America is finally waking up to it and starting to work against the buffoon we unfathomably put in the white house. As well as the indoctrination the right wing of this country has been under for a generation now.
The death of NATO is a good fucking thing. No more US military bases in the EU, no more forced expenditure of civil budget in weapons causing austerity, no more bombing of Libya and Yugoslavia, no more US influence in European politics. If you're European you should salivate at the thought of NATO ending.
The end of NATO doesn't mean any of that. We have bases in non-NATO countries too, so obviously that isn't because of NATO. It does mean Russia has almost free reign to invade more countries. If Russia can cause issues without being part of an alliance like NATO, why do you think the US can't when it's not part of NATO?
First of all, the country currently forcing my country to cut expenditure in healthcare and to put it into military is the US, not Russia. And the country funding and arming the most flagrant example of genocide in the 21st century is the US.
Second of all, Russia doesn't have geopolitical reasons, nor the military/economic strength, to invade EU countries. And even if it did, the EU has nukes so you don't need further military expenditure as deterrent.
Third, even if you forget all I've said above, the EU can still have a military alliance without the US, and it would be a much better thing.
Wrong. There's no requirement for spending as a part of NATO. There's also no requirement for the US to do anything. The invasion of Ukraine by Russia is almost certainly the reason your country, whichever it is, is increasing military spending.
They have reasons. Some EU nations are former Soviet states. Just the "restore the former borders of the Soviet union" reason is reason enough, ignoring the resources or anything else. Do they have the strength? Why is that included here. Does it matter? It doesn't have to be smart to happen.
I don't know what you people who keep bringing up nukes think they're for. You can't use them. Using them will only ensure you lose, because everyone turns against you. They are only useful to deter other nuclear strikes, and also to deter nations from creating a last stand situation where you have already lost so there's nothing to lose in using nukes. You can't win a war with nukes.
Forget or dispute? You're implying your logic is faultless. Anyway, sure. They can. They don't though. I advocate that they do. I'd love to see the EU with its own defensive force. I don't want them to be reliant on the US, like they currently are. However, that necessarily requires most EU nations to increase their military spending, which you're apparently against. You want magic, not reality. You want all the benefits of military power without any of the costs. Sorry. That can't happen.
Article 42
And
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Support_and_Enabling_Command
Not a strict requirement, but pressure to do so. Whose idea was it to raise to 5% again? The only president who rejected the idea, Pedro Sanchez from Spain, got threatened with tariffs if Spain doesn't conform.
Russia has been pushing for closer political and economic ties with Europe for the past 30 years. Russia was promised that if they dismantled the communist project NATO would cease to expand eastward, and NATO kept expanding eastward regardless. Turns out NATO was never about defending Europe (because it never has), it was always about creating tensions between Russia and Europe because a continuous political alliance of industrialized nations that spans from Gibraltar to Bering would be too powerful for the US to control.
The justification is the invasion of Ukraine. But as a European, the number of times our military has been used to defend Europe has been 0 since WW2, it's only ever used to support US imperial ambitions, to bomb brown children, or to keep control over colonies in Africa. Europe deals so much fucking damage with its imperialism, that's one of the biggest reasons I don't want military expenditure. They tell us it's to defend from "le evil Ruzzians" but 5 years later Europe will be bombing brown children with that money, mark my words. For fuck's sake Europe can't even stop supporting the genocide of Palestinians. How can you want Europe to spend more money in military instead of engaging in diplomacy and not antagonising Russia?
It does matter. If Europe already has the military strength to repel Russia, why do you want the extra expenditure in weapons?
Why wasn't the Soviet Union or any of its satellite states invaded by the west since they got the nukes, then? The cold war was raging, and yet there was no incident of overt military conflict between eastern and western block. How so?
If love to see the EU pushing for diplomacy and not antagonising the largest country in the world which happens to be right beyond its borders. I would line to see a European military alliance independent from the US but I wouldn't like it spending 5% of the yearly budget at the cost of already starving healthcare, education and pensions. Denmark already approved to raise retirement to 70 fucking years old in order to pay for this, Finland is pushing to remove holidays from the calendar, and England already said that raising this budget will have effects on expenditure in social services. This is absolute bullshit.
We have the far right getting stronger and stronger due to the worsening living conditions of Europeans because of austerity policy and lack of intervention of things like salaries or rent prices. Cool, let's increase military expenditure to 5% right before fucking LePen, AfD, Vox and their equivalents get to the governments, what could possibly go wrong? Remember my words: in 5 years time, the European money will be spent not in conflict against Russia, but in middle east / Africa. Supporting military expenditure of the west is absolutely crazy.
No, I dont want the benefits of military power because I'm not a warmongering European chauvinist like you, I want the benefits of diplomacy, of social spending, and of good relations with neighbouring counteies. I don't want my fucking healthcare money to end up in the pockets of Rheinmetall in order to lobby my politicians to go to war. I'm an able-bodied male and I don't want my country to send me to be cannon fodder in the name of European imperialism.
Alright, you're just being a Russian mouthpiece.
Oh, Russia was promised NATO wouldn't expand? Not so much.
The entire rest of your comment is similar Russian drivel. I'm not going to spend any more time with this because your opinion is not founded in logic. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." You have a chip on your shoulder and it's hindering your understanding.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful. None of them are good. Some of them are just temporarily doing more evil to gain power than others. Once you look at the world with this point of view, it makes much more sense (though some leaders are just stupid, crazy, or self-obsessed).
"You disagree with my point of view, so I'm not gonna respond to any of your arguments because my state propaganda told me your point of view is forbidden and ontologically evil and I can automatically discard any discussion about it. Yes, I'm the one whose opinion is founded on logic"
Please explain me how my concerns about the far right rising (arguably pro-russian) and the worries about the welfare state in Europe and my support for a EU-wide military alliance are Russian talking points.
In the Tucker interview Putin references the meeting where he asked for membership. The minutes of that meeting could have been published to proof him wrong. In other words Russia was kept out and as an opponent by the choice of Nato.
Besides the wording is that there was no agreement and not that there were no promises. That suggests that Russia's point of view is not entirely wrong.
In that light, aren't Nato's actions forcing Russia's hands?
Casting the first stone from paradise, eh?
Americans have been burning paradise. Sit yout ass down and be quiet.
I mean, not to absolve America of anything, but it's not like the rest of the world hasn't been complicit in burning paradise either.
Just removing the US from another world stage
Soon we will be completely irrelevant
Which is the plan
Gonna be as isolated at North Korea by the end of this administration. As trusted too.
Except they have the largest nuclear arsenal and the world biggest navy. They can't be ignored.
Only "solution" I see is civil war. The nukes are still a problem for the rest of the world though
My brother-in-law is career Navy and he says they'd get mopped by the Chinese.
Eeeeehhh, if you just look at numbers of boats, yes. The US Navy has far, far more experience, though. Drones are also going to change the game in ways we're only starting to see with the Ukraine War. With that, the answer might be "everyone's boats are sunk now".
China probably couldn't gain air superiority over Taiwan, and without that, an invasion will fail. That will be true even if the US ends up losing more boats.
sounds like E1 speak to me. I'm sure your BIL is a lovely cadet, but he should learn when to turn-to and stfu.
He's an officer and over 20 years now. This discussion took place shortly after he gave me a tour of the bridge of the carrier he was assigned to at the time. The terminals were running Windows XP. This was 7-8 years ago tops.
ah, so you're full of shit and know nothing.
Great insight, corporal cumsock
I wish they were just removing themselves from the world stage. What they're actually doing is shifting away from a model of direct co-operation with allied nations and strong economic ties with otherwise less friendly nations, to unilateral action wherever and whenever they feel like it.
Their foreign policy isn't moving towards isolationism, it's moving towards unchecked fascist domination.
lol the currency is heading to worthless, what are they going to buy resources with? Trade also requires allies.
So fucking hyped for this
Honestly, the American far-right unknowingly dismantling US global hegemony piece by piece is pretty sick
they’re doing it very knowingly… they wrote an entire nearly 1000 page fucking document detailing exactly what they’re doing in excruciating detail.
the fascists == idiots trope needs to go bc that’s exactly what makes them dangerous. lots of these fuckers are quite intelligent and conniving. you should be weary.
Oh yeah, they have a plan all right.
Now, the plan isn't any good and everyone gets screwed, even them.
But it is, technically speaking, a plan!
Oh, we're weary all right.
That plan doesn't work. It assumes that the rest of the world just sits back and takes their crap lying down which isn't happening. They genuinely think they can just take over Greenland and nothing would happen. I don't know if they're intelligent or not, but they're definitely delusional.
They’ve handily proven time and time again in recent memory how they can in fact just do things and the rest of the world will sit back and take it lying down, though. That’s the problem. Anyone who thinks it’s just an America issue or something like that grievously misunderstands the tenuous house of cards that the pax americana and era of modern peace is built upon. Realistically, how far are you willing to go to prevent fascism? Would you die for it? Would you crawl through the trenches in a land many seas away from home? Some people might say yes but realistically most Westerners and others would never dare give up their creature comforts. It’s not delusional to think the world can change in the way they suggest precisely because they’ve suggested it - that is the hallmark of the fascist movement and what ties their collective ethos together, a philosophy of domination in all aspects.
Idk in short, I agree that yeah these people are certainly morally bankrupt. Lots of them are delusional. Any group of people has some like that. That doesn’t mean we should strawman them. There’s lots of idiots and they might think the US could invade Greenland without causing an international crisis. Either fortunately or unfortunately, these aren’t the people saying that the US wants to own Greenland or that we should go to war with Iran, for example.
The people who control and run this movement are not delusional. They’re dangerous.
i made the freudian slip originally before publishing the comment but decided to keep it in because it felt apt. lol
Oh don't worry, we're really freaking tired and weary of this nonsense.
But we should also be wary of how sneaky these bastards are.
One goal was to increase defense burden-sharing with allies. but withdraw from NATO wasn't a project goal.
The followers of fascist movements are alsolute morons. The leaders are ruthless and capable opportunists.
Just when I warmed up to the idea that NATO was a necessary evil to counter Putin's worse evil.
It is but losing the traitor in the assembly is not a bad thing. Now if Europe could jailbreak all that American tech they have in their military gear too, that would be nice.
It also is a necessity to keep the USA from going Putin... Trump wouldn't stop wanting to be a King. As a King he'd work on becoming the Emperor. As Caesar Donald the step to becoming the god emperor isn't that big...
Kinda just hoping we can skip all that and go straight to the "Et tu, Bruté?" bit.
Between this and USAID I can't say I'm unhappy about it. Of course dismantling imperialism is a good thing, but I also don't understand. The republicans should be all about illegal invasions, bombing civilians, and installing puppet dictators, so they should love USAID and NATO, yet here we are. Is this just incompetence?
As directed by Vladamir Putin.
How would the military industrial complex not kill Trump if this were true?
Jail, I imagine
What's next? Helping Russia in their wars? I hope it was fucking worth it to "own the libs."
Next is Canada and Greenland, then on to Europe where I will meet big daddy Putin in the middle.
China could also attack Taiwan. That'll go much smoother when USA is alone and distracted
Thanks to nato, america been bombing and organizing coup in ton of countriea with impunity.
france was right all along
Yes, but what's the point? Nobody listens to France anyway, we are irrelevant. The only way to push our ideas is if somehow the EU embrace them.
And then we've got our own issues (doing nothing climate-related, lack of financing for science, nazi ideas getting popular, etc...).
They want out because it's stopping to be a market for the US military industries, as Europe increasingly wants to spend domestically. As such, it now has very little interest.
US: We want you to spend more on defence!
Europe: Ok, we will buy more, from our own companies!
US: That's not what I meant! I'm going home!
They wanted to leave during Trump’s first term because it helps Russia’s war with Europe
The increased spending is just meant to make the incumbents unpopular so the Russian backed candidates can win
That's probably a factor as well.
Cause and effect are a little twisted here. Trump was already undermining NATO during is first term by saying European members should spend more. They didn't agree at the time, but the Ukraine War proved that Europe really did need a more domestic MIC, and now they are.
Trump wasn't saying it in the first place because he thought it would help NATO.
This is only happening because Drumpf is meddling with deliveries and contracts. It makes America an unreliable supplier and partner when a contract or agreement means nothing because the orange shiteweasel may change his mind tomorrow, and redirect the arms that you already paid for......
They're also threatening to annex or outright invade long-term allies. You don't want to be in a war where the people you're fighting against are the only ones who can maintain and replace your weapons.
And yet the UK is buying more American jets 🤦
BAE Systems is a major supplier.
UK is 15% of the F35a supply chain, and 20,000 UK jobs are involved. This decision helps UK too. I will bet however, that overall, there will be less international money spent with the American MIC, but concede that number will be greater than zero.
Our PMs have been US lapdogs for longer than I've been alive; with a similar both sides issue where all the cunts come from the exact same private schools and social circles.
If the US leaves NATO, Europe would lose a lot of support.
If the US stays in NATO, they would refuse to support them anyway and could use their veto power to stop any potential action.
If they're not going to have the support of the US military either way, and the US staying in NATO could prevent the organization from taking any action at all, it may be in the best interest of Europe for the US to leave NATO so they can't cripple it from within.
NATO is a defensive alliance so the only thing a US veto would do is prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. But that wouldn't happen until the war is over, and it doesn't look like that's going to happen until Russia's economy collapses. At that point Russia won't be a threat for awhile so kick the US out, add Ukraine as a member since Ukraine would be a stronger ally than the US anyway.
You're confusing NATO with the UN.
This took longer than I thought it would. It seemed like a priority during trump’s 1st term, then it stalled.
Given some of Putin’s comments lately, he seems increasingly restless. I wonder if this is related to that?
He's preparing to attack the Baltics.
I would say the rest of NATO should be able to hold against Russia for sure, especially in its current state.
I would just be worried about short-term problems because of disrupted logistics due to the US withdrawing. Or maybe that other countries would follow the US in leaving.
But in the end, that is just my guess.
Nato for sure can stand its ground even without the US. But Russia doesn't need to blitzkrieg and win huge swathes of territory in order to accomplish their goals of destabilizing the EU. Everyone saying "they're already losing in Ukraine, they wouldn't dream of opening another front" obviously hasn't studied Russian history.
I think the biggest deciding factor in whether this happens or not is actually China. Ostensibly, they wouldn't risk losing a huge market like the EU but afaik things aren't going well over there either, so if Xi wants to be the strongman Putin is desperately trying to be just in order to hold on to power, I can absolutely see them choosing Russia's side in a global conflict.
Based on news lately cracks on Russian economy start to show and their meat grinder in Ukraine crawls forward with massive casualties. At this rate they can't attack a garden shed.
Putin himself can preparen and wish to conquer whatever he wants but as long as the little remains what's left of Soviet Union might is scattered around Ukraine, Russia can't really do anything. If Europe can't get their shit together and Russia eventually wins (after several years at this pace) in Ukraine it would still take years to build up any kind of military force against anyone and even then they'd need to fight against whole EU and whatever remains are left of NATO.
US: "NATO members need to up their defense spending!"
NATO: "Okay, we'll do it."
US: "Actually, We're leaving NATO." 🤡
asdf
It's a common American view that the other countries weren't spending "enough", whereas from the perspective of everyone else on the planet it's America that's spending a hugely disproportionate amount of wealth on killing, and just expecting its allies to do the same.
https://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.php
asdf
I'm pretty sure that last decade or so has shown that Europe doesn't spend enough. It's not just Russia's invasion. Military action in Libya was reliant on the US to sustain more than a few days of action.
I keep getting this sinking feeling that this is all leading up to a precise and coordinated attack of evil.
Russia bombards the EU, the US attacks Greenland and Canada, while Israel finally bulldozes Gaza and Iran. China takes Taiwan and the south sea.
All at the same time so NATO is overwhelmed and can’t decisively defend it all without risking spreading too thin. No matter what happens, one of the bad guys gains ground.
I honestly have no idea if this is even possible, it’s based on a dream I had a few weeks ago.
Disturbing thought though.
Russia is losing against Ukraine, the fuck they gonna do against EU, unless they use nukes in which case who cares, it's game over
yup Russia using nukes anywhere near russia like Ukraine would mean the radiation will spread to russia too. so yes, it is game over.
Russia has an army that is capable of invading another country. The only country in NATO that have done that is the US. I don't think Russia invading the whole of the EU is a realistic possibility but grabbing a few ex Soviet countries off the border...
asdf
You're right, let me rephrase that. The US is the only NATO country with living experience in invading non-neighboring countries with current methods, doctrines and technologies. That's not a simple thing to do and that know-how is extremely valuable if you want to invade someone else.
adsf
methods aside. Tiny UK is pretty impressive actually when you think about it, they "united" so many countries all over the globe across the ocean. If only they have treated the people better.
asdf
Also UK returned most of their colonies back to the people unlike some huge countries like russia which is still trying to expand its colonies and territories in this modern day and age. and other huge countries making claims on Greenland or Taiwan.
As I said I am pretty sure they can't even properly invade ukraine and are struggling there.
I am not an expert on this but I am pretty sure a bunch of EU countries joined the US in afghanistan.
Israel might bulldoze Gaza and maybe a few Mashriq countries, but it would suffocate on Iran. That's a fucking big country.
Graveyard of empires for a reason. They can try to OORAH!! MISSLES AWAY!!! Iran all they want, the resulting occupation will NEVER be a peaceful one, as there will ALWAYS be rebels in the hills and deserts.
17th biggest in the world. I was surprised when I learned that.
Israel, Iran, China, and Taiwan are all outside the scope of NATO.
Canada, Greenland, and most of the EU do fall under NATO protection though. It's a defensive alliance with well defined boundaries, member countries may have interests in other parts of the world, but since none of Israel, Iran, China, or Taiwan are NATO members it's not something NATO deals with. Unless one of those countries were to attack NATO of course.
Russia is in no shape to make war on Europe right now, they have their hands full with just Ukraine, and face economic collapse. Iran is in a similar situation. Trump has stopped his 51st state talk, but he's insane so you never know. China invading Taiwan? Trump is weak (he only talks tough) so you never know. But China is authoritarian and as we've seen of late authoritarian regimes don't seem to be doing well running military campaigns so it's possible they don't even have the capability of invading Taiwan.
China might have a 2 year window coming up where it's even possible to invade Taiwan. Their military has modernized a lot, but they probably aren't quite to the point of being able to pull it off. At the same time, they are looking at a demographic cliff from the long term implications of the One Child policy.
It's possible this window as already closed. That said, authoritarian regimes have started wars before that were terrible ideas.
Yeah with how effective drones have been in Ukraine (especially in hitting the Russian Navy) I kinda doubt they'll have the capability. I feel like Taiwan is probably developing the capability to mass produce drones right now. They most definitely have the technology. Amphibious invasions are really hard to pull off, and China doesn't have a lot of naval experience. And nobody has ever done it with a thousand drone boats in the water.
And yup, authoritarians do stupid things with their military, we saw that already with Putin's invasion of Ukraine. So the question is, how stupid is Xi Jinping? I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I think China is not stupid. If anything military wise they'll do against Taiwan, it will be likely to blockade them.
So the Trump strategy of trying to kill trade is "wise" now?
I can see trump believing something so stupid as that, and putin might saber rattle about it, but the majority of the world, and china/india especially in this situation, probably would not go along with it. Europe still has functioning nuclear capabilities. Putin does not want nukes hitting his country, full stop. China does not want a nuclear situation kicking off with their neighbor to the north, and knows that the US under trump would likely turn on them despite a war ruining both countries. India no more wants china controlling the waters to their east than the countries immediately around those waters do, and would likely cause issues, which china also doesn't want. As we've seen in the modern times with ukraine and some of the middle east conflicts and the india/pakistan border, nuclear powers tiptoe around anything that resembles direct conflict. The recent dogfight over the border was a pretty good idea of how reserved even 'open' conflict is.
So putin is likely not going to do anything more than a symbolic grunt at his western border, and china will just slowly weather down taiwan if the u.s. is withdrawing its influence. The idea of reunification isn't THAT taboo in taiwan, and the candidates for it gather a decent chunk of votes. If the u.s. starts acting like a bitch around the world (oh, gee, just look at what's happening right now), the sentiment towards it and china could easily see a rapid shift.
I agree with you, but my tinfoil hat is telling me to dig a shelter, preserve food and start making ammo. You know, for game hunting.
Many valid points, but having nukes generally only prevents getting nuked, not attacks by other means. At least as long as either party still has something to lose.
ruzzia has had it's teeth pulled by Ukraine, so despite the barbarian posturing, they won't be starting another war for a few years.
The thing is the EU is mostly concerned about Europe, while the US wants to play world police. So if China would invade Taiwan and NATO is without the US, I'm not sure they are going to get involved, it would open the gate for Russia. If the US is still part of NATO I'm not sure what will happen as it's not an article 5 event. So the other NATO countries are not automatically involved even if the US is.
And add a dose of the US invading Canada and Greenland when they're no longer a part of NATO.
Wait, "attack of evil"? The US is literally funding and arming the genocide in Gaza, the US IS the greatest evil. You may argue for Russia being a close second (discounting Israel), but how is the US not absolutely the worst by any metric? How many millions did it murder in Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, and how many millions more were murdered under its approval in Southeast Asia(Suharto) or Latin America (Pinochet)?
I’m not advocating for the US. The idea of arguably the most aggressive regimes in the world somehow coordinating the timing of their next big moves is just a bit terrifying to me.
NATO isn't gonna defend Taiwan or Iran. The US will defend Taiwan, Russia will defend Iran. NATO has no interest in either. NATO will defend Canada and Greenland as best they can.
This is literally the behavior of a traitor
Seriously, what happened USA? You were never the best, not even close, you were one of the worst, but st least you tried. Now you just kinda dropped pretence and went full asshole
And only 6 months into one administration. Honestly I've never seen politicians work so fast at anything
That's fine, just pack your shit and close all military bases in nato countries as well.
Hey, you know how much money they spend on having this bases? Some regions depend on it.
On the other hand... I think Trump and his mad posse wouldn't risc being such bigmouths without their Bases in Turkey or Ramstein.
Also their level of megalomanic moronity makes me fear that when the USA leaves Nato it would start attacking the rest of the world. Canada and Mexico first. Then they would find "justifications" to raid through middle america and "bring idiocrazy" to south america. Reinstating slavery for everyone that ain't "a good godfearing white patriot"... Because... the white race is superiour and needs Lebensraum.... Oh god, I've heard that shit all over in history class when I grew up in Germany in the 1970ies...
Please, anyone stop them now!!!
I remember german history class aswell, it might get ugly history seems to repeat itself a lot.
Yes, why do people never learn from history... Especially when it endangers their lives
Damnit I remember the frogging digits of the telefonnumber we had in out flat from where we lived until 1980!
We should wait for them to start a war with someone like Canada, and THEN ambush them. But to do that, Russia needs to be overrun.
I think preventing any unnecessary bloodshed should be first priority.
Unfortunately, that's not how Imperial Presidencies work.
Does the bill include all military installation closures and those that are on European territories? For example Greenland. If MAGA wants out, then GTFO and I do not want hear any crying afterwards because that will give the Europeans every excuse not purchase US made weapons. I'm certain US MIC lobbyists will weasel their way in to tear apart the bill.
This is what I don't get about their plan to take over the US. It won't work because it will cost everyone money, the people they are ultimately beholden to will lose out because of actions they chose to take.
As soon as the consequences become apparent interest in project 2025 is going to drop off a cliff.
I want to believe
The consequences have been apparent for nearly a decade already. Arguably longer.
If they're going to withdraw then why are they strong arming all the other nations to spending 5% GDP on defense? If they're not in NATO, who gives a fuck what they want?
Probably because they want those 5% GDP spent for contracts with the 'murican military industrial complex.
But that's definitely (hopefully?) not going to happen if they pull out of NATO.
Never underestimate the corruption and stupidity of European politicians. "Divide and conquer" works like a charm on most of our corrupt assholes. See the stupid opportunist fuck that the Germans elected chancellor. His (our :'( ) government is pushing for the use of the Palantir(!) software from fucking uber-Nazi-piece-of-shit Thiel in German administrations.
They're demanding it of Australia (not NATO, but we do have ANZUS) too.
So, they wished the increased spending to the monkey paw and got exactly what they were wishing for: countries are cancelling orders of complex US equipment all over the world, and Europe is developing a military industry to compete with them.
that is the less undesirable outcome, but still it is depressing how primitive and fucking dumb humans are to still be bashing each others skulls in in the year 2025.
I don't think the US military complex consider that "less undesirable" than basically any other possible outcome.
... well, it may be better in their minds than an asteroid destroying Earth before they can cash-out. Maybe. I'm not sure about this one...
Either I disagree about the preferences of those murder-weapons-vendors, or you misunderstood my intentional double-negative, whose purpose it was to emphasize that it is absolutely not desirable that budgets have to be increased for mass-murder weapons.
I am saying the military industrial complex over in the divided states of fuck all and everyone, would absolutely prefer if people bought from them, less so as a cash-out but preferably as a permanent source of income. A privatized murder-weapons industry in the billions is the best way of ensuring we will never get lasting peace on this planet.
Defending yourself is so dumb, hey? Go and whine to Pootin. Everyone else has to react to the bully, or go extinct. Pacifism has no place so long as there is ONE invader/bully left.
I feel sorry for your 1 brain cell.
My one brain cell is sad that you have already been reduced to stupid dad insults LOL. Please bathe next time you're sober. You smell like piss.
It was a talking point that Trump had in his first term. He tends not to let go of bad ideas once they get into his head.
At the time, people didn't take it seriously. With the Ukraine War, Europe feels like it has to now. But it's going to be domestic production, not paying US MIC companies like Trump was thinking.
The 5% is probably too much, but its realistically 3.5% the othet 1.5% can be spend on infrastructure (like make bridges strong enough so tanks can drive over them), on cyber defense and other things that are not weapons.
Also it's about deterrence, when we spend enough Russia can't attack unless they match the spending, this is part why the Soviet Union collapsed.
The Soviet Union collapsing is what allowed the war in Ukraine. Do you see why rising military budgets in Europe doesn't exactly promote peace?
Tell it to Pootang, Yuri !
Putin is famously the president of the Russian Republic, very different from the Soviet Union. I don't know why you thinking me criticising what Russia has become somehow makes me Russian?
This is like saying Germany losing WW2 is what allowed Israel to attack Iran.
The antagonism between Ukrainians and Russians is a project the west has been pushing for a century. First it was Nazi Germany weaponizing a hunger episode that hurt Ukraine disproportionately more in order to create anti-russian sentiment (see Stepan Bandera), then it was Europe+US talking of Ukraine as a Russian colony during Soviet times.
In the 1991 referendum, Ukraine voted to remain part of the Soviet Union which was illegally dismantled against the democratic will of the majority of the Soviet population. Despite this, the country was dissolved, the economy was auctioned to the most corrupt bidder, the industry was dismantled, and by 2022 Ukraine still hadn't recovered the economic level it had before 1991. The dissolution of the Soviet Union literally caused a demographic crisis in Ukraine comparable to the ongoing war.
Until 1991, the tensions between Ukraine and Russia were minor and the countries had a benign, sisterly relationship. It is the breaking of the eastern block that primarily triggers anti-russian nationalism in Ukraine and vice versa in Russia. It's the broken promise of the west not to push NATO eastward that puts Russia on its toes, and it's western-backed colour revolutions like the Euromaidan that proved Russia that Europe would always position itself against Russia, and not establishing friendly economic and diplomatic ties.
Was Ukraine actually added to NATO? No
Do Ukrainians want to be Russians? No
In fact after the NATO summit of 2008 where Bush said Ukraine should be a NATO member, Putin who was at that NATO summit said he didn't want that (same for Georgia).
After that NATO didn't push membership further and Putin attacked and claimed parts of Georgia anyway.
About a month after Putin said he had no plan to attack Ukraine he took Crimea.
I know people from both Ukraine and Georgia and they always tell me that Russia has been an agressive neighbor forever and they really don't want to be Russians.
I'm not saying the west it perfect and we definitely did things wrong. But the invasion of Ukraine is 100% Putin, he did this, there was no war, nobody was threatening Russia. In fact the EU was slowly getting a better economic relationship with Russia.
But in the end all of this doesn't matter, it's not about NATO, or the west. If you listen to what Putin is actually saying, he thinks Ukraine and Georgia both are not counties. In his view they have always been part of Russia, so he would have invaded them at some point anyway.
I dont know. maybe to help them get ready or look like he's doing so?
If you think Drumpf may be a Pootin asset, then it makes perfect sense. Spending more GDP on defense usually makes the incumbent party less popular, which may create opportunity for russia leaning candidates. Obviously, this would weaken NATO. NATO countries go along with Drumpf because they really still hold some hope that USA won't leave the fold. They are still in the Denial stage of mourning. Anyway, events in Ukraine have shown that more GDP spending on military is pretty much essential for any country within range of ruzzia.
That's the elephant in the room.
For those who don't know, Trump is threatening tariffs on Spain for not complying.
To me it means that the threat of leaving Nato is a ruse to facilitate armament for a big war against China. Fewer people would support that.
I'm not saying Donald is a russian asset... But what more could daddy vladdy wish for?
Mike Lee is obviously a fucking traitor lol Americans stand up for your country and shoot the motherfucker
Irritatingly unlikely, sadly.
Both parties have spent considerable time batting around the 2nd Amendment as a toy in their game. A polarizing empty-promise point with emotional strings attached, so now all the blowhard bullies sexually fetishize weaponry, and many of the types who would disagree with authoritarians are paralyzingly afraid and ignorant of anything "military looking" that makes loud noises.
"Because only cops and troops should have guns!" said the enlightened neoliberals, as they gladly handed over their responsibilities of self-protection and firearms education to the might-makes-right crowd.
"Muh freedom! An' 1776 or somethin'! An' own the libs, don't tread on me!" says the gun "collecting", MAGA-hat wearing, massive-smoking-diesel-truck-in-the-suburbs driving, angry and scared working man, who carries a copy of the Declaration of Independence (he hasn't actually read, or if so, cherry-picks the parts he likes) and is completely ignorant on the Bill of Rights, who loudly decries and slanders "The Government(TM)" ...but conveniently simps for his abusive bossman and "backs the blue" when they mercilessly beat a bunch of people waving signs and assault reporters. Who waves a Bible (also unread) around yet shows contempt and hatred for his neighbor. Who thinks a bunch of armed insurrectionists storming the Capital because they didn't like poll results aren't traitors.
Lol.
Lmao.
God help us.
Many of the people who are opposed to this clown show have been successfully declawed and defanged if their legal processes have fallen apart, which we're watching happen in real time. They're also scabs who just want their creature comforts and will keep their heads down hoping "somebody else will take care of it."
Incredible to observe the rapid (self)destruction of US. I'm just waiting for a couple of states to declare independence. Within a 5-10 years USA will be history like the Sovjet Union; it will break down into smaller countries.
all of which is advantageous for putin.
Not without a lot of bloodshed, unfortunately.
I had so many brain dead idiots attack me over at Reddit, for claiming America would withdraw from NATO if trump won. They weren’t just Americans, but also Europeans.
He did hint at it during his first term. So it wasn't an unprecedented prediction. Especially when it has become obvious that the previous guard rails have come off.
Russians are technically europeans too.
No, they are not, get this notion out of your fucking head
Ok, then lets be real, there are no europeans there are only eurasians.
Russia's most densely populated, and politically most relevant are is on the European continent. Get that into your fucking head.
I got banned from one of the NCD communites (not world, different instance) here for insinuating the US doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO lol
We'll see if this gets anywhere. Right now it's just one idiot pushing this.
Honestly, NATO might be better off without them
Why do you think that? How would losing half the military assets and technology would benefit NATO?
Half the military and technology assets that won't ever actually be used to help NATO under Trump.
He'll veto every action that goes against Russia... Which is what NATO was originally formed to do...
NATO is not against russia. It is against certain things that russia does to its neighbours who subscribe to NATO membership.
US arms are still flowing to Ukraine and the sanctions against Russia still stand. I'm not saying things haven't gotten worse under Trump but it's clear that the US still has an anti-Russia policy.
The US is great at spending money in the military, but it absolutely sucks at actual war.
Look how they wasted trillions in Afghanistan to surrender to the Taliban.
the US military exists solely to funnel tax payer money to military shareholders.
Actually, if you're curious, look up how many wars the US has actually outright won on their own without being part of a coalition of allies.
The answer is shockingly few.
Even their great revolution needed help from an, at the time, true superpower i.e. the French.
checked a wiki page about that.
it's frankly embarrassing how much the US military actually sucks.
likely human history most expensive military, and a complete waste of resources
The expense and waste is the point. Winning never was.
war is profitable, winning is irrelevant, soldiers lost are replaceable.
thats why they do these aggressive recruitment propaganda every few years, having a movie like top gun maverick helped alot last year and propaganda like business insider video of military jobs. and yes most of them are aimed at POCs. when obama came into power, recruitment/military was actually downsizing in a peacetime military, but trump reversed it the moment he was in his first time. i was in forums where it was when obama was in charge, it was getting harder and harder to get into the military(people were getting denied left and right for medical and financial and crime reasons that mightve seen consideration during the bush era), then i magically reversed the moment he left office.
The true Rule 34.
it was always to justify the defense budget to go into the pockets of the contractors, the politicians and the lobbyists.
I'll grant you it's a big racket, it's corrupt, it's inefficient, but I don't think it's a skill issue.
https://youtu.be/d5v6hlRyeHE
I wouldn't consider failing to win the hearts and minds of the local populace using violence a military failure rather than a policy failure.
Ukraine showed that modern warfare is a different game than it used to.
it's s resource war, cheap drones can cause lots of damage, and it is far more costly to fight them. long range rockets, v defense systems...
and given that US have painfully expensive toys, they won't be able to hold of again a cheap enemy.
yhea, Maybe the F22 can outmanoeuvre another airplane in a dogfight, but who tf needs a dogfight? the enemy can just launch a volley of self guided missiles that costs 100x to intercept.
That's true, but I doubt the US military is standing still on the drone front. Surely they'd be able to field their own swarms of drones. Perhaps some electronic warfare stuff too to disrupt drone communications. And if not at this moment, it won't be long. Every military on Earth is learning from what we're seeing.
That was to funnel money, steal gold, and oil.
in a way, the "mission accomplished" was true
yea Just like how the Afghans kicked expansionist russia out. Afghans are strong people. it is a place where empires go to commit suicide.
Although US got Osama (hiding in Pakistan though).
Yeah but we won the war om werewolves.
basically like how the russians do it, with bodies, and money, except the usa wastes more money. no strategy, just keep throwing waves of campaign after campaign of wars, plus it also justify have a 800bn budget. tangentially, this is what mr benjamin is doing constant war aggression so he keeps getting aid from the us. Pakistan does it too, just pretend they are doing something about the taliban in thier borders, just to keep getting aid.
Maybe it sucks holding the country or building new relations but it excels at invading it and did it successfully in Afghanistan as well.
Agreed. Drumpf is Pootins "man"*on the inside. Look to him to delay and prevaricate any NATO decision, and generally try to sabotage them
a man child
with the constant threat of trump working with PUTIN, who wants nato in disarray, its a good thing for the EU to divest from the usa.
Another Russian shill?
Well, a Republican, so yes.
Of course NATO is not a trusted organization to an administration consisting exclusively of Russian agents.
Seriously, are we sure these assholes even speak English and have English names or is there some cover-up going on?
He's just stirring shit to get his name out there isn't he?
Utahns generally don't like to draw attention to themselves as firebrands (e.g. Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch), so methinks the Senator is planning to get into the 2028 presidential primary.
Isn't this the same psycho whose reaction to Minnesota politicians being assassinated was conspiracy theories?
Yes it is
wow, even after NATO members helped US.
Outside of NATO, even Ukraine soldiers helped US. Apparently, over 5000 Ukraine soldiers served in Iraq, third largest contingent after US, UK.
From a Turkish perspective, it's fucking ridiculous for Trump to first convince us to increase the defense budget, then withdraw from the alliance completely. The fuck is his goal?
Mike Lee floats a lot of turds, even in excess of what the standard put out. He's been agitating against NATO membership practically since his first day in the Senate, along with his close friend Rand Paul.
This bill won't even make it out of committee, unless Lee can get a bug in Trump's ear over it.
Why do you believe Rutte pushed through the 5% military spending target? It is needed to replace the US in Europe and be a working deterrent to both Russia and the US.
It also is a bad move to leave NATO, as this makes the EU the logical center to coordinate the defense of democracies.
Well, in a democracy it's important that people who want this can try to make it happen via official procedure, which this is.
That said, the people who want this are assholes and probably in bed with Russia.
So we dont buy US military kit. It's got kill switches and hard to keep running without their support. It's increasing looking like they aren't aligned with the free world.
Oh trump's definitely not the "daddy" in this relationship.
Not really. European NATO countries are currently strong enough to repel a Russian attack if we so wish. Taking into account how strong the Russia is at the moment. It will be stronger in the future, but we are easily able to increase our strength more than the Russia can.
And if USA withdraws from NATO, then the rest of EU, not only Finland, Baltics, Sweden, and Poland will be forced to take defence seriously. This will make NATO more like it was supposed to be, and it will no longer be used for offensive wars.
But... USA withdrawing from NATO would of course have negative sides:
But still: The EU is the biggest economy on this planet. We are absolutely able to win a war against a country with an economy only as big as one of our 27 member states. We just need to bother to do so. Which means we'll need to change our mindset. Heh.
Right now nearly all aid to Ukraine comes from Europe and Russia is not able to win that war. At least not easily. That is with Russia in a war economy, whereas Europe half asses deliveries for the most part and obviously there are over a million professional European soldiers with some really good kit around as well.
I'm fairly sure Ukraine is almost stronger than EU combined right now. We would NOT speedrun Russia, and Russia is a death cult that would have hundreds if not millions of casualties on their side, even if we did (saying this as a Serbian, and we are normally very proud of our combat abilities for some reason).
Russia could not even prevent Assad from falling to some militia with some training from Turkey, while Iran was also helping. What do you believe is going to happen, if they would try to fight another professional military? They are not even winning in Ukraine, which gets some support from Europe, while Russia has a full on war economy.
What's that flag?
SEATO apparently. Did not know that existed
Southeast Asia Treaty Organization
Nobody cares what the State Duma has to say
Great!! Fuck right off USA!!! Without you idiotic dipshits in NATO the rest of the aligned countries don’t have to listen to your moronic whining to spend $ on US defense weaponry/planes etc. You won’t be missed and piss off. From Canada’s POV we’re really looking forward to spending billions on Saab Gripens - so we can protect ourselves from you.
watch how they whine, when european decides to close and expel all the bases and military from thier borders, Asian might not do it though because of CHINA, which is a different beast, and issue.
hello Russian shill.
Are you high? The US president is literally a Putin fluffer. But please, go on.
🙄🙄🙄
yes!
and...?
There are plenty of ruzzian shills and Pootin taint attachees, but the comment you responded to, is an extremely fair one, and probably represents the majority opinion. Drumpf is a friend to no one in NATO, and is possibly even an enemy.
Trump is not the US. by advocating for the US to leave NATO you weaken the stability of NATO.
Putin and his lackeys directly benefit from a weak NATO and thus anyone who willingly advocates for the weakening of NATO is either
I'm not in support of Trump, y'all just keep pushing that narrative on me. which honestly only convinces me you're part of group 1.
Trump isn't the representative of the US? That's great news but it's not aligned with reality
trolls are out in droves today!
did I say he was "not the representative" or he was "not the US"?
somebody needs to work on reading comprehension. I can forgive it though assuming Russian is your primary language.
Sound like ruzzian, spruike shit like a ruzzian, probably is a ruzzian. I bet you stink of beets, cigarettes, cheap vodka and urine.
Fuck off fellow dumb fuck American. I hate being an American because of losers like you.
USA showing again how they are traitors and cowards.
Gotta make daddy putin happy
So is it their goal to turn the US into an irrelevant backwater or what?
So far they've introduced bills that diminish their own military force, decimated global trading relationships, now they're trying to back out of the final commitments they have left. By the time 2030 rolls around no one will want to be president because they'll have no power.
Nah they want to attack whoever they feel like without having to go through a meeting.
"This is an invasion that could have been an email!"
Yes. The most charitable interpretation is that people have forgotten the lessons of the 1900s and think that a replay of Herbert Hoover is a good idea.
Last time it took a few decades and destroying countless lives to fix. Hopefully the cost is lower this time.
The worship of limitless work and the military, a toxic obsession with hyper-individualism and isolation, with a paper-thin facade of morals and self-proclaimation of greatness, while everyone is broke, without opportunities, hooked on drugs, and stuck with crumbling infrastructure in vast stretches of remote nothing-land, while getting used and abused by multinational corporations and barons?
Sounds like they're just pushing the mentality of the southern states to a national level.
Hope, this doesn't go anywhere. NATO is frail as it is.
I don't know if a US less NATO would be that frail, it would absolutely shrink the alliance, but that can make it more flexible, being able to re form to Europe's new needs, rather than as an extension of the US military
What's more, we wouldn't be dragged into the US' imperialist shit anymore. Well, hopefully.
Sure, that could be a consequence in the long run, but it would be pretty bad for our immediate situation.
Meanwhile, Putin and Russia is cheering this on. The parties they are going to throw are going to be absolutely epic. You’ve heard the party of the decade, you’ve heard of the party of the century, get ready for the party of the millennium.
The press I saw from nato meet where really disturbing as in they where blatantly sucking up on him.. so maybe there was something known already. Also the Iran stunt is incredible, what is happening?
Step 1: Get help from NATO in the middle the east. Step 2: Once NATO needs your help withdraw. Step 3: PROFIT.
Step 3: Become irrevelant, getting replaced by otherwise mediocre countries. That's one way to bring world peace, I guess.
Can the US get invaded yet? Someone needs to bring us some freedom...
Lol, they are really regarded, US paying more is by design right from the start.
Yes, please. I'm sick of my country working with these degenerates yankees
Australia really needs to close Pine Gap as well.
Australian democracy vs the CIA round 2
Hopefully we can trust the GG this time!
I'm sure they already have the dirt to make a persuasive argument
Better yet, stand up for ourselves and when an unelected royal appointee predictably does not side with Australian interests we tell them to shove it.
Mike Lee is a notoriously despicable person even by GOP standards and the bill doesn't have any legs. Like, just a week ago he said terrible things about the Minnasotan politicians who were shot dead in their homes, and he's also the one who was pushing to sell off public lands (which he was bullied out of; also seems to be in the pocket of the Mormon cult).
The US stance on NATO is complicated under the current US regime but I doubt it'll be by this assholes bill.
Hol up. Didn't NATO guy wank all over daddy's boobs already?
I thought that was more of a language barrier thing tbh, poor guy probably would have used father or dad if he knew the connatations.
Partly, yes. But also partly because world leaders have realised that if you don't want the US to fuck you up the ass you need to say nice things to Trump, preferably combined with gifts.
Mike Lee? The guy who proposed a federal porn ban?
For the other nations in nato it would be for the best (imo obviously). Republican usa is not a reliable ally and the other nato nations have not all come to terms with that new reality yet. If the usa quits nato, then it instantly removes all doubt and the remaining nations of NATO can immediately start work on improving the alliance, instead of being stuck in limbo for a few more years while they're hoping that the usa will somehow magically unfuck itself.
We already know all of that and work is already being done to improve the alliance among non-US NATO members. The US is already considered non-reliable and the only benefit of the US being a member is that it puts some doubt in the minds of adversaries long enough to build up the militaries of the non-US members.
It seems highly unlikely for this to pass. There are so many bills being proposed but often it's not actually relevant since it's going nowhere.
Agreed. Sensationalist newsweek article and title.
I hope so. The united snakes should not have any influence for all the countries they bombed and couped for decades
As predicted years ago.
Trump is Putin's ally, not NATO's.
This was forseen by some YEARS ago..
As I've said before, they're committed to destroying all the "woke" countries in a pincer between Putin & Trump,
& that's why Greenland is required, so the US can do to Canada what Russia's been doing to Ukraine, & once Canada's destroyed, then the hated-by-them-both EU can be destroyed.
It's a strategy, & it will succeed unless the TrueNATO countries SMARTEN UP SHARPLY, QUICKLY, which looks to not be going to happen..
Whatever.
There are other worlds in endless-stream-of-universes: our continuums/souls will just do it again, on another world, after obliterating this "Garden of Eden" world, right?
whatever.
Watching humankind "prevent" snuffing-of-humankind is like watching a junkie's life be obliterated by whatever junk they're addicted-to.
Inevitable, depressing, pointless..
Oh, sure, it's possible that the addict in question might somehow change & fight-for-their-life against their unconscious-mind's obliteration-addiction, but is it likely?
not.
Of course they do. Here's hoping they all die in a fire
The thinly veiled US exceptionalism that America is funding it. And their standard attack against other nations that they are welfare states taking advantage of USA.
Fucking assholes, if people are taking advantage of us. Then be proud we are so strong and rich that they even can.
I like this! It's a good thing for the EU to decouple from the US. The EU's military budget is definitely good enough, just very badly managed. This will push the EU to get its shit together and achieve proper autonomy. Only then it'll be able to enter international agreements on equal footing with other superpowers and not have it be a serfdom relationship in exchange for protection
If we attack the USA, can I get some land in North Carolina?
Good, the neoliberal world order is destroying itself
Good....GOOD. Immigrants in EU welcome! 😁
Won’t go anywhere. But it’s a nice try.
All of Europe will be Russia.
This bill is going nowhere, and Trump just said at the summit that he would honor article 5.
I know Trump often changes his mind, but the summit showed that Trump has definitely changed course for the better regarding NATO.
Bullshit. This isn't the game you play with the orange turd.
Not sure how much I trust Trump, but yeah Mike Lee (who introduced the bill) is someone who just likes introducing bills. The fact no one else joined him means this article and conversation is about all he could expect to actually happen.
Don't threaten me with a good time time
Yeah, no, that's not going to be a good time for anyone
Except everyone who isn't in NATO or near an American military base lmao
I’m in no way supporting Russia or Republicans when I say this but NATO since its inception has been used for Western imperialist goals and establishing US global hegemony, so in no way do I support its existence anymore
You are in every way supporting both Russia and the Republicans saying that. If It wasn't for nato, the Baltic states and maybe even some central European countries wouldn't exist by now.
Sorry I’m not supporting an imperialist military organization that bombs civilians and has had nazi leadership
Edit: Crazy this opinion is downvoted
Which country are you from, my friend?
You don't have to support nato if you don't want to... just don't say you are not supporting Russia. Nato has one purpose and it's to stop the Soviet union / Russia from taking over Europe.
NATOs other purpose is to stop socialism/communism from existing and emerging anywhere, unjustifiably. The Soviet Union wasn’t going to take over Europe, that was a lie created by the US and others. The US was the aggressor during the Cold war working overtime to sabotage any socialist nation because of “freedoms” and “democracy.”
Russia has been a capitalist country since the fall of the USSR (goal accomplished I guess) but the West has still wanted to destroy them even before the Ukraine conflict. Yes what Russia is doing is wrong and they need to be stopped, but also the US, EU, and NATO.
As someone from a country take over by the Soviet union... Lol.
Lol well the Soviets did have to move through Eastern Europe to Berlin to fight the nazi invasion
They also had to drink water when they were thirsty. Both of which are irrelevant to decades of brutal occupation.
Yep. Definitely a Pootin troll.
Nope I don’t support Putin at all. I’m glad I stopped thinking like you.
I doubt that you think much at all. Just take the rubles, and peddle the crap from the white board in the data centre in St Petersburg.....
LOL Pootin troll spotted. Shouldn't you be digging babushka a fresh latrine pit, Yuri? The old one is full and Pootang needs it to recruit more of YOU from.
Are you ok? I can condemn the US/NATO while also condemning the current Russian regime
So, you don't support Pootin and ruzzia, then?