Does TERF give a damn about Trans men going to Men Restrooms?
Because all the conversation I've seen has been against Trans Women going to women's restrooms. Which is strange to me because, according to the twisted concept of TERFs, Trans men are not men (even though they are), but "women".
Aren't they worried about "women" going into men's bathrooms?
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The thing you have to understand about TERF ideology is that they think:
So naturally they think trans women are evil rapey men trying to infiltrate women's spaces, while trans men are weak-willed stupid little girls who've been seduced into Gender and don't know any better.
Very feminist, much radical.
it's so clear and so sad how accurate your words are
Well, I'm aware of that. I'm just baffled by how little TERFs care about those "stupid little girls seduced by gender".
In their worldview, they are "women" entering a space full of "evil men", which sound worse than a "man" entering a space full of women.
I don't hear them talking about trans men and toilets (I guess they think they're st risk, but it's their own fault?) but I've heard lots of criticism of trans men as telling women they aren't allowed to be masculine, or erasing lesbians, or other poorly informed things.
There’s a subset of TERFs that are lesbians, they’ve seen a lot of butch lesbians transition fairly recently (from what I’ve collected on the TERF forum I’m aware of) and they seem to point to that a lot. They seem to just consider transmen to be butch lesbians who “bought into gender ideology” and consider them to be quite delusional for doing so. I don’t get any sense of particularly “protecting butch lesbians from themselves” they seem to frame it more as those women are lost causes and the way to “protect them” is by not allowing them to be “infected” by trans identity, they definitely talk about them like they’re “asking for it” if anything bad does happen to them because they do believe they are women entering a world of evil men but have no way of physically preventing it.
I don’t consider myself a TERF, I do consider myself to be a fairly radical feminist (no we aren’t automatically trans exclusionary) so I do sometimes see them in rad fem spaces and was genuinely curious about the perspective but it seems fairly not cohesive there’s tons of conservative think in it, lots of “crunchy” women etc. TERFs honestly seem to care way more about the TE than the RF, they don’t seem to have any uniting ideology…
What's the difference between regular feminism and radical (non-TERFy) feminism? I don't know if I'm radical or not.
It's not the only possible criteria of course, but certainly the easiest to check for:
Can you do a kickflip?
If you're views diverge sharply from the mainstream, you're radical.
If you think we should change society to bring about gender equality, you are radical. If you think it society is good with some small tweaks like legislating parity of pay or a certain number of women in c-suite positions, you're a liberal feminist.
Afaict most supposed terfs are actually either non feminist conservatives or liberal feminists.
They seem to just not care/know that transmascs exist. I think it's just a matter of erasure.
If they saw a transmasc enter their space they'd probably lose their shit.
The term "seduced into gender" is hilarious
I've read that porno.
The F stands for Fuckwit not Feminist.
yoink!
thanks, I'm stealing that :)
Excellent explanation, and happy cake day, if that’s a thing we say.
Yeah, I never really understood the term "TERF", as their idiology is counter to that of any kind if feminism that I've ever seen, which is generally all about equality between genders.
So if terf was actually radical feminism (it’s not), it would be basically the horseshoe theory where you’re so ”radical” you get back to “traditional” values with a bit of misandry sprinkled in.
Every time a women came into the men’s bathroom I just assumed it was urgent and that the women’s bathroom was occupied or closed. Never had any different thought.
Edit: I don’t think any sane man would care if a female, trans, cyborg or alien would go pee.
Respect my right to be robophobic
If you came into my bathroom, I would stay until you finished.
making sure they wash their hands. good on you
Kinky
You make Bender sad.
Sounds like a closeted robosexual.
I remember being at a bar... Queue out the door for the ladies, mens almost empty.
One of the girls in the queue said something like "I wish we could use the mens" as a comedy throwaway.
I said "do it, if you're comfortable doing so, we don't care". I mean, there are still stalls with doors right?
Half a dozen very relieved ladies bolted for the mens.
I like to think I made some people's evening just a little better that night.
That's the really crazy thing: the entire bathroom issue was manufactured in the first place because the damn signs on the doors never had any legally-enforced meaning to begin with!
Plus, I’ve never glimpsed another bathroom-goer’s potty parts in a public bathroom. It’s such a made-up non-issue.
It does happen and it is uncomfortable, regardless of whom. Situations im thinking about include
The most satisfying part is when it doesn’t even affect our line. Women are heading to our stalls where as most men are using urinals so we still get through just as fast
My wife followed me into the men's room last night in Vegas cause the ladies room was closed for cleaning. Didn't realize anyone was in there, but a dude that happened to be going number 2 bolted outta there like the flash, it was kinda funny.
One night out my partner and I got separated, leaving me with her handbag, I needed a piss so I took it in to the toilet with me, should have seen the reaction of the two men in there.
Terf ideology more or less boils down to
Transwomen are predatorial men
Trans men are foolish women who were tricked
They probably don't believe in enbies.
A couple of months ago I was trying something with a second account on Facebook. Gave myself a gender neutral name, used a profile picture where it's hard to tell, and set the non-binary flag as my banner.
Ended up in an argument with a TERF at one point. She was so convinced that I was a biological woman falling prey to "trans ideology" that she even showed up on my profile the next day, commenting on something and trying to convince me to change the path that I'm on. And just because it's relevant to this story, I feel like I should mention that I was shipped with male factory parts.
So yeah, I experienced that first hand with a TERF who can "always tell", who was convinced that I was one of these foolish women being tricked.
It was pretty affirming at first but as time went on it felt less like a win and made me feel awful and deceptive. Because I didn't once mention anything about my sex but didn't correct her either and just let her keep making assumptions. Deleted that account not long after that.
Edit: fun fact, not long after that on my main Facebook account that uses my very gendered real name, in another argument with a bigot, I was accused of being a woman pretending to be a man online.
What are enbies?
Non Binary, or NB
Oh, thanks.
Nope. Because it's about policing women and the appearance of women and the gender norms of women while pretending to be so very very concerned about the safety of women.
Look, we need to protect the sanctity of women's sports, while paying them about 1% of whatever ludicrous amount men get, so they can play at empty stadiums.
I'm normally against gatekeeping but I fully support demanding people "concerned about the sanctity of women's sport" actually name three women's sports teams.
Then double down to challenge them for three trans athletes on women’s sport teams. Anywhere
But the best time for a womens soccer game is 11am on a Wednesday! I am sure everyone interested enough will take the day off to go watch and if the stadium is empty, thats because womes sports are uninteresting and the men play better.
Ding ding ding. It’s just another form of the “won’t someone think of the children” fear mongering that gets used to restrict freedoms.
I’m a dude and have used the women’s room a lot of times.
Sometimes you gotta shit and dudes rooms don’t always have seats.
I dare you to live on the road with a punk rock band and only use one genders bathroom for the whole tour.
You’ll shit your pants.
Just channel your inner GG Allin and shit on stage.
This guy gets it
Giving me random CKY flashbacks
wat.
Men’s restrooms especially in punk rock clubs are often in a state of disrepair. Many of them will have toilets that don’t have seats.
Generally at clubs like this one of the restrooms is better than the other
Sometimes it’s the men’s room sometimes the women’s.
I don’t care. If you gotta shit. You gotta shit.
Do it in the bathroom not on stage.
Not like gg.
No. They should be considering this, given that plenty of trans men look like large and intimidating men (because they are), and they'll be forced to use womens' restrooms if the TERFs had their way.
Ultimately, the restroom issue is only superficial. TERFs (and other bigots) will pick issues like this, but they don't actually care about the issues they're yelling about. What they really care about is keeping their privilege and their sense of superiority. And that requires having a "them" group to put down and exclude, to clutch their pearls around.
So when you see irrational takes like the restroom thing, remember that it's irrational because it's not actually important to them (though they themselves likely don't realize that).
They also care about ruining trans people's lives in any way possible. I'm sure there are plenty of transphobes who simply haven't thought the bathroom thing through, but don't forget the other reason they'd be happy to put passing trans men in women's bathrooms: it forces them into an impossible decision. When an angry mob drags a trans man out of the women's toilet, you think they're going to listen to protestations of being AFAB? If anything, that'd just rile them up further. So a when someone is faced with the decision of choosing either the room they're least likely to be noticed in, or the one the law technically assigned to them, they may instead choose to stay home. They may even start considering detransitioning. This is a feature, not a bug.
Yeah, that's the "put down and exclude" part. The thing is, though, is that the transphobes don't believe it's because they want to ruin trans folks' lives. In fact, they believe they're doing the Right Thing™. Pressuring people to stay closeted is something they're definitely attempting to do, but they genuinely believe it's for everyone's benefit, even the trans folks (again, this is irrational). They don't take pleasure from the pain and discomfort they cause (at least not consciously), they take pleasure from feeling righteous.
Idk, there seem to be plenty of bigots that take pride in hurting us. The cruelty is the point for them. Some of them genuinely believe we are groomers and pedos. And I swear to science that if anyone ever calls me one of those IRL, they will get punched in the face. I may end up getting the shit kicked out of me or worse, but that is something I’d wear on my shoulder proudly.
I mean, *phobes have little problem with also being hypocrites.
Well they have to get the idea to self-project from somewhere. Like US politicians and paedophilia
TERFs don't want trans people using any toilet. TERFs want to push trans people out of public life, and ideally to stop existing all together, by making existing in it as difficult as possible.
Amazing how hard it is to express the TE in TERF is an absolute.
And the feminist part seems silent. It’s almost as though these people are misogynistic.
I think the main reason people aren’t as concerned about trans men using men’s restrooms is that they don’t pose any more physical threat to the men in there than any other man would. A trans woman using the women’s restroom, on the other hand, is seen - fairly or not - as potentially introducing a physical dynamic that some people find more concerning.
I mean, even a cis woman could walk into a men’s restroom and most guys wouldn’t care. At my local swimming hall, there’s often a cleaning lady washing the floors in the men’s locker and shower area while guys are completely naked around her, and no one bats an eye. Now imagine the chaos if a 50-year-old male cleaner walked into the women’s showers - completely different reaction.
For the same reason most don't care if a trans male athlete wants to play against cis men but they do care when it's the other way around.
What about a trans man going into the women's restroom? Why don't they care about that?
::: spoiler spoiler Because they're stupid :::
Cis women don’t care about a trans man going into the women’s restroom because they’re stupid?
I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but I’d argue the opposite - many cis women would care about a trans man entering their restroom, just like they’d care about a cis man doing the same. From their perspective, it’s often about perceived male presence, regardless of the person’s gender identity.
They would if they knew trans men existed. But there are women who make their entire political identity about trans people, and still don't know trans men exist. Because they're stupid.
I think one thing that most people can agree on is that they prefer walking into an empty public restroom.
Nobodyfew of us like using the facilities while under observation.I’d be more than happy if we steered the argument in that direction. Little bit of privacy would be appreciated by us all and this problem goes away if all the restrooms are private and non-gendered
As far as I can tell, no. No one ever seems to care. I can only assume it's because they view men as the "dominant" sex and women as "weak".
Which is bizarre cause it’s incredibly fucking sexist.
It's not a TERF thing. Nearly no one cares about who goes into a "Men's" Restroom and it's always been that way.
They celebrated when Noah Ruiz (a trans man) was assaulted by men for being in the “wrong” bathroom (he had been told to go to the woman’s.)
This brings up an interesting question or I’m not close enough to the problem to have thought of. I’ve seen women use men’s rooms plenty of times and no one cares.
The transness is the big key. They are okay with women in men’s restrooms as long as they are women, but a trans man attempting to use a men’s restroom is a boundary violation - because it’s part of that man’s statement that he is trans.
It’s a deep insecurity - they live in worlds that are set in stone, and recognizing that human variation is infinitely more complicated than the boxes we try to shove people in is terrifying.
They don't want trans men in women's bathrooms either. They want trans people to not be able to use public bathrooms at all.
Here is a video in which Katy Montgomerie (a fairly well know trans campaigner) discusses this: https://youtu.be/vmH6S_jwbl4
Doesn’t this just follow long established gender norms (self referential joke intended)?
As a thought exercise assume two genders and consider your reaction toward using the wrong restroom.
So it actually does make sense for this issue to be an outgrowth of long standing societal norms, but maybe it’s an opportunity to have a deeper discussion about why we do that and whether/when it’s warranted at all. We had shared bathrooms in college and everyone survived (although I was always frustrated that I never used it as an opportunity for “fun”)
They’re seriously more bothered about there being a trans woman in a different cubicle where you can’t see each other than if it was a lesbian perving on your sounds, or a gay man being at the stand ups and sneaking a look at your winky (12” flaccid before you ask). This is not stuff normal people care about.
Not worried about lesbians though
Well just this week a cis butch lesbian had police called on her for using the women's restroom.
in the 1960s and 70s there was a similar moral panic about lesbians, and a rejection of lesbians as women and as belonging to feminist groups by a vocal minority of second-wave feminists, very similar in some ways to the current moral panic about trans women and the vocal minority of TERFs.
https://www.advocate.com/history/betty-friedan-anti-lesbian
It’s such a weird emotionally driven thing though. At one point I was putting on a lesbian barbecue…. Weirdly enough (a lesbian couple was our neighbors and I’ll do a cookout for anyone). Most were great people but a couple stood out
Their logic is that women are a historically oppressed group and that certain rights are a zero-sum game. They would say someone who has been born a man has forfeited male privilege and therefore don't have a right to anything which "belongs" to women.
If our discourse wasn't so polarised people wouldn't become entrenched like that but social media has made ration/empathetic discussion impossible.
Trans people are also a historically oppressed and marginalized group, so much so that history has hidden a lot of them. That oppression has also been rooted in misogyny. So any attempt to uproot misogyny which ignores this fact is doomed to fail.
It's the definition. Trans exclusionary RADICAL FEMINIST.
They put women's rights first.
FTFY
Only their narrow definition of woman. And as an old cishet woman myself, I say the only thing radical about them is the amount of conservatism they're channelling. There's nothing feminist about that.
It's absolutely not my place to gatekeep feminism, but...
IMHO They're not practicing feminism (defined as empowering women) the trans exclusion turns it into radical misandry (disempowering men) by excluding any trans people from their definition of women: they consider transfem and transmasc people as men.