I'm currently training a new employee who comes from the "My school handed out Chromebooks" generation, and hol...eee...shit... Its frustrating as hell.
Literally every single instruction gets followed up with "no...double click"
I am that generation, but I was blessed enough (not dirt poor) to have a family Windows PC at home, and my mom got me a HP laptop later because she knew I was gonna be going to a tech school program in my Junior year, and knew that Chromebooks were dogshit.
My tech teacher would constantly complain about the kids who had like zero Windows knowledge, and couldn't do shit like open a PDF in word, or simply find the terminal. I knew this shit would happen when I was in school, I literally told my mom that anyone who can't afford a windows device at home is fucked in the work environment. Compounded by the fact most teens are iPhone purists and make fun of Android, they're just too used to "shit just works"
Yeah games hold me back. I got teenage niblings that play on my PC when they come over and they want Windows and fortnite. It's a nice family/friends setup though, 4k tv with game mode and four controllers.
I get it, Windows is trash, but at least using Windows and Android got me to care about what my device does and can do, eventually leading to me getting Fedora.
The point is that I have experience with having to fix the occasional issue and know basic computer skills due to using Windows.
I started using Linux maybe 10 years earlier than that and stopped using Windows at all around Windows 7 (at which point it was just the occasional dual-boot into Windows for a few games every couple of months) and at no point can I remember a time when Windows was good in that time period.
Hardy Heron gang rise up! Me too! I'm now in my late 30's and still need to venture into the world of PGP encryption. And my daily driver is Debian. Distro hopped in the early years... Fond memories of BunsenLabs #! (Crunchbang) and Slax. Had many toxic encounters with OpenSUSE forum users, twas a major turnoff for a young penguin.
Yeah, I'm having a lot of trouble working with younger hires, and I'm not even 30. If I had to summarize, they're able to do things like memorize button combos, but there's just no comprehension about the how the buttons were only pressed to achieve larger goals.
I can sympathize from both directions. Teaching my iPad generation nephew to use a Windows PC is a challenge.
At the same time I look like a total incompetent when trying to do anything using the GUI on a Mac. My muscle memory is just plain wrong after 20+ years of Windows and assorted Linux variants I keep clicking in completely the wrong places
Over the last 40 years I've used Mac, Windows and various Linux desktops as well as the Atari desktop called GEM (used it in an early music studio), Amiga and BeOS. Probably a few more over the years.
I always go back to Windows because it has support for pretty much everything I throw at it and the OS isn't as bad as nerds want you to believe. Yeah, it crashes and gets unstable from time to time, but EVERYTHING does.
Everything does, indeed, crash; but the rate on windows is ridiculous. I was thinking the same way as you, but a year ago was given a windows laptop at work, which was my first windows device in close to 5 years ar the time.
It is, without any exaggeration, completely unusable compared to my tiny sway or hyprland desktop. Got a replacement laptop about half a year in - same nonsense. So hardware faults are ruled out.
Eventually made a deal and set up my favourite distro on it - all insanity went away. It might not run photoshop, but I don't need it. At least it doesn't crash every few days.
Many words to say a simple thing: people get used to software being shit. It's really nowhere near that bad if you leave windows environment.
I hate to say it, but maybe you just didn't take the time to learn Windows?
I've had the same pc running windows 10 day and night for 5+ years (I think I've literally had to reboot it 9 times in all that time), and it has never crashed. And I have RUN that thing ragged.
I had used windows for decades prior to that. Never been a windows admin professionally, but definitely new my way around.
I've had my desktops with reasonable uptime as well, but it was on win7 (and probably 10). However, system uptime is not everything. Things running within that system have to keep running as well and they don't.
I think thr closest comparison I can give is upgrading speakers - you can't really tell a higher quality speaker plays your music any better until months pass, you get used to it and then hear the same track on a previous set. It's night and day.
I'm as much as a Linux guy as anybody else, but this really just seems like an interfacing issue. I've never done anything professionally with computers, but I run all of my self hosted stuff right on my windows machine (no virtualization) with no issues. The only times things MIGHT go down is when I'm updating. I've never used Windows 11, so if it's as bad as Windows Vista then that makes sense, but then why not just use Windows 10? It exists and you can use it and it works
I started dual booting Ubuntu and Windows when I was 19 or so and when I'd go back to my Windows partition to do something I realized I had either forgotten or never learned a lot of how to navigate it. I opened it and went "Where is my terminal?" and then remembered cmd and started using it to look for a directory before remembering that's never how I'd done things on Windows. It was an odd experience.
Funny. We had a bunch of Lenovo laptops we ordered in for the developers. A few stayed as Windows and a bunch got various versions of Linux installed.
The Windows laptop chugged along and did their thing, We had a problem with some of the Linux laptops overheating. Some just were unusable unstable.
Ideally we all use what works best for us. I'm not going to get into an argument over which OS is better because clearly it has to do with what hardware it's on, how it's setup, and who is running it. I also think it's pathetic to make an OS part of my personality. I use whatever at work, but at home I use Windows so I don't have to mess with things. I get it installed on good hardware, update some drivers, and the thing chugs along fine. I can't remember when my workstation at home has ever crashed. My Windows laptop does from time to time because it's a Asus ROG that it a bit dodgy. My Apple laptop and my Chromebook are buggy and crashes as well so maybe I just have bad luck with personal laptops.
You're right about hardware - sometimes it just is dodgy. But a tiling wm is a tiling wm.
Developers looking after their laptops? That's asking for trouble. They know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to dig themselves out of the holes they're creating.
I've never made linux as part of my personality - I've discovered it. We naturally lean towards things we're good at and get good at things we lean towards. I'll (hooefully) never initiate preaching of linux and its userspace, but if a conversation happens to go that way - I'll happily chime in.
I wonder if it’s really a computer issue or a more general lack of problem-solving skills. In your 20s you should still easily and quickly be able to switch to any OS and understand the logic. If you don’t the issue is likely not limited to computer-skills.
Back in the day when installing Solaris and OpenBSD and such you had to specify in numerical values the number of sectors of hard disk space you wanted to format drives with. Shit is considerably easier now with modern UNIXy systems.
When I installed Linux for the first time around that time frame, I had to write X configs (for XFree86, not X.org) by hand. And be sure to get your monitor timings exactly right or risk permanent damage, said the scary warning.
That was always 'fun'. Trying to find things like the 'front porch' timings was an exercise in frustration at times. Then put it all together and try it, hoping it either worked, or at least didn't go too badly. The 'boiinng' noise sone monitors would make was always a bit alarming.
I ended up soldering together an adapter to convert from VGA to a monitor that took separate red, green and blue inputs with a sync pulse on green. Working out the timings for that was interesting, but I doubt any other PC OS could have driven it.
The mid 1990s for me, OpenBSD came out in 1996 and Solaris was Solaris was like 1992. I was admining a Solaris SPARC station back around 1997 that had a gnarly install if I remember correctly. It was on 3.5” floppies and I still have that SPARC station and the original Solaris OS sitting in the basement collecting dust. At one point that SPARC was being used by some of us working with the PHP group to diagnose file system limits on Solaris and build PHP binaries back when I was involved in PHP development. Fun times.
My first Linux install was like Red Hat 5.2 or something and it was much nicer.
Bah! Young'un! ;) Installing Slackware off of a stack of 5 1/4" floppies and trying to work out your harddrive's geometry without switching the machine off to look at the label was a challenge. Doubly so if you were trying to dual boot.
my first linux install was on a 486 from a box of floppies we got at a computer convention in the late 90s. Back then you had to do all sorts of crazy setup steps like figuring out drive layouts and screen frequencies. It was craziness but when you're 13 and want to tinker with computers that's what you did.
Watching a millennial (around the same age as myself) simply turn off the monitor when I asked her to restart really put things into perspective for me.
I don't take any knowledge for granted anymore, all my clients get step-by-step, stupid-proof instructions for even the simplest tasks.
You are assuming they can't when in reality it is more that this is learned helplessness, they have been told over and over that they wouldn't understand anyway so they aren't even trying.
It doesn't go anywhere. In the file explorer you can just open the disk and work with the contents. Linux can access ntfs drives.
You could detach them before installation, I did that with windows too in the past, to make sure they aren't accidentally formatted during installation.
You're right. In fact, I think the easiest OS to install is probably some sort of Linux distro. But most people don't install their OS. And Windows is shipped built-in on many computers (even though we're starting to see some Linux options as well).
I grew up on Windows my entire life, but really only as a user until I got into teenagehood. I still remember when I was 12 and had to reinstall Windows 7, and I was given the option of either x64 or x86. I thought "Oh, my laptop is stupidly old, it's gotta be the lower number" and it took an embarrassing amount of time to then actually try the x86 option which immediately worked.
Fairsies :3 I just said a decade cause that's my first experience, and I couldn't be bothered looking into when the install process was really simplified for a random lemmy comment lol
Installing MacOS on Intel Macs is really easy if you still have your recovery partition. It's not even hard even if you've overwritten the recovery partition, so long as you have the ability to image a USB drive with a MacOS installer (which is trivial if you have another Mac running MacOS).
I haven't messed around with the Apple silicon versions, though. Maybe I'll give it a try sometime, used M1 MacBooks are selling for pretty cheap.
Funnily enough I've had the opposite experience: installing Linux on a 12 year old laptop: 30 mins and done, installing windows on the same laptop: 5 and a half hours
My point is that if my machine didn't take 2-3 mins to restart (and all the usb slots were stable) then I probably wouldn't have needed much more than the 30 mins.
Thinking about it, I probably did reboot about 30 times for various different things.
Linux users are inherently more tech savvy because there are no limits. On the contrary, there is documentation and free knowledge aplenty. Windows and especially Mac hide and obfuscate everything happening under the hood and you are vaguely warned away from doing anything not specifically blessed by the corporation. That's why those users are less tech savvy on average.
Just the fact that someone is using Linux at all means they are probably tech savvy, simply for the fact they had to install it in their own. If all prebuilds came with Linux, it would likely be the other way around. (Although why someone would, out of free will, go and install Windows is beyond me)
Interestingly people who learned to use PCs back in the early days most likely installed themselves Windows on their own MS-DOS PCs and probably also upgraded it themselves, whilst Mac users did not.
Which kinda gives weight to the idea that it's the technical barrier to entry into using a certain OS that makes for tech savvy users of that OS: they had to be tech savvy already (or at least have the mindset of trying stuff out which is IMHO what creates tech savvy users) in order to get that OS running.
Mac use to be much more open and direct about things. Even the pre-unix Macs were more obvious then Windows of the same era. Unix Mac was way, way more adjustable and while it's not system related, shipped with iMovie and other bits of software for creating things.
Make the study about iPad/mobile computer kids verse desktop kids and you'll see a sharper contrast.
I think that we need convergent offering systems because the Fisher Price nature of mobile operating systems is so unlimited, smartphones aren't even Limited in their Hardware like they were 10 to 15 years ago. Linux funds already exist they're just expensive and usually a bit of respect but there's no reason we can't have the desktop experience on the go. If nothing else you can strap a screen and a battery to a Raspberry Pi and that serves as the proof of concept, now you just make that in an appealing form factor and you're all set
Linux users are inherently more tech savvy because there are no limits.
You clearly have not met my parents. I installed Linux on their PC because they are not tech savvy. Doesn't matter if Windows or Linux breaks down, they can't fix it anyway, so might as well reduce the chance they manage to infect their device with all kinds of malware.
Which distro did you install for them? Same ship, and it's sinking :'( They've got an old (2011?) Toshiba Satellite that's on thin ice when Windoze 10 becomes EOL this October. PopOS! or something else?
I would look at the Atomic spins from Fedora or other immutable distro. Your Parents can be separated from the OS while being able to install/uninstall user software as they like without a problem. The OS can update itself in the background without them even knowing about it. The Budgie version is simple to use with an easy to get used desktop. It also offers just enough customization to make most people happy. The atomic Cosmic spin might also be a possibility also.
It is Ubuntu, not my favourite distribution, but easy enough that they are able to work with it. Most software is also either available through the included repositories or has a dedicated Ubuntu executable.
It also has LTS versions, which are supported for quite some time. That way you can set up a system which they can use for years without having to deal with major changes during that period.
I think that's a pretty recent phenomenon and it still requires that there's a good friend or family member who is a Techie to actually happen.
That said, thinking about your post does bring a whole "chicken and the egg" possibility to mind: are Linux users tech savvy because of the open nature of Linux or are Linux users tech savvy because for most people the technical barrier to entry into running Linux is still high enough that they have to be tech savvy to begin with in order to start running Linux?
I think it requires a bit of both.The average user only wants their computer to work and doesn't care if Linux is OSS or exposes the inner workings of the system more. For them there is simply no reason to install a different OS, pre-installed Windows might be a bit annoying at times, but generally it does its job just fine.
For us choosing a distribution, downloading an ISO image, creating a boot disk and going through an installer which asks 'scary stuff' like "do you want to accept our partition suggestion, or do you want to create your own? Oh PS this action may RESULT IN DATA LOSS" is all easy-peasy.
We are able to find alternatives for programs we need, or are able to track down a Linux version. Either in the distro's package repo, Flatpak (or Snap, for the more masochistic minded) or by compiling from source (with all the complications and parameter setting that sometimes requires). Or we run the Windows EXE in Wine.
Most users simply aren't tech savvy and/or don't care enough to go through these kinds of 'hoops'. Acquiring this knowledge requires investment, without motivation (which usually needs to be intrinsic) that simply won't happen.
We hate stuff like Windows being a black box and Microsoft trying to push their MS accounts down our throats enough to not blindly put up with it. Most people I know just create the account, go through with the installation and go along with their days.
It's the painful truth that yes, it requires a certain attitude to want to switch to a different OS.
What also doesn't help is the attitude I sometimes see in the Linux community. For example, I recently posted my experience with gaming on Linux. In short: it sucked, badly. Some responses I got were helpful, but there were also a lot of 'meh, that game publisher sucks anyway, you shouldn't play their games' responses. Fortunately I'm not a novice when it comes to Linux, but I can image a beginner would just say 'screw it', install Windows again and advise everybody they know to stay the fuck away from that elitist cesspool. If we hate that MS dictates what we do with our devices we sure as hell shouldn't start dictating what our (potential) fellow Linux users do with theirs.
I agree there is an obfuscation of what is happening under the hood in Windows and Mac systems- but that doesn't stop the tech savvy from digging a bit further. I played around with resource files back in my System 6, 7, and 8 days, and got pretty comfortable with registry edits from Windows 95 onwards.
I think it's more that Linux only appeals to the tech savvy, precisely because of the lack of that obfuscation layer.
I grew up with mac, but I was always so frustrated that I couldn't play the games and run the programs my friends could on their computers. I finally bought my own PC in high school, and was so happy to have the control I always wanted. I haven't switched to Linux yet, but at this point it's inevitable; I'm just dragging my feet on figuring it out.
Download VirtualBox, its free and open source. Download a few Linux isos, actual Linux isos, and fire them up in a VM to see what sticks out to you. People usually recommend Mint As a bridge from Windows, personally I'm liking PopOS a lot more than I thought I would. Both are based on Ubuntu which is ubiquitous. I hear a lot about immutable distros, but I haven't ventured there yet. Point is you can figure it out for free and completely without hassle.
VMs are a good way to dip your toes, but honestly, doesn't hurt to boot from a USB and try that way too. That's how I checked of Fedora, which I stuck with and now dual boot with. I rarely go to my Windows partition unless there's something I have to do that can't be done on Linux.
I don't touch terminal often, and I use Fedora Silverblue, which is immutable, making it harder for me to fuck up my system somehow. I have used the rollback feature due to updates with the kernel breaking bluetooth, so there's the bright side of rollback distros.
I installed Linux mint last night and honestly it was a lot easier than I thought. I work on Mac and game on windows usually.
It took a couple of hours (mainly rebooting my machine over and over because it's so beat up) but the install and documentation held my hand most of the way, and a YouTube video covered the rest.
Now I get to see how smooth it is to use before I put it on my main machine.
A lot of people suggest a dual-boot (more technical, but it will run faster than virtualbox) as then you can just reboot the computer and use the windows "half" whenever you need to do something Linux can't handle.
Just be aware that clicking the wrong button may write over the windows part of your machine. There was a lot of "are you SURE?" confirms first though. If that makes you too nervous, then maybe try virtualbox instead first (as the others suggest).
Not necessarily. For those who grew up with winmodems it was the reality. Fortunately where I grew up, dsl and more importantly coaxial broadband took off veey early on. Though there were dsl softmodems, these were rare. The difficult part was a windows logon software provided in isp cds. For macos users the isps usually sent IT guys with 'drivers' initially and for linux users they sent IT guys to help install windows. The 'dialing' program did nothing but few http requests but in those days packet capturing was not so easy.
A friend of mine 'hacked' the isp (weak telnet or ftp) to steal the debug version of said software to figure out the requests in logs. Unfortunately the local isp discovered the 'hack' somehow and found the 'proof' by seeing linux cds on their desk. Isp guys issued a pretty serious warning for their parents that the kid is becoming a hacker/criminal by using linux. This reminds of that famous text.
Why? My parents couldn't teach me how to get a modem working, so when we bought a 14k4 modem, I had to install that thing at age 12. Granted, I didn't have to compile them, they came on a floppy, but it wasn't exactly userfriendly
How that make you feel? I intend to do the same to my kids tbh. Starting with problem solving exercises they're learning at school and make it more advanced as it goes just to unblock the OS. I'm sure eventually I'll need to take matters to a kernel level to be able to keep it going, but I'm fine with that as long as we're all learning.
It was a fun project and we actually did compile everything starting with a boot floppy and RHEL source. Dad did most of the work to start and gradually handed it off to me to get different things working. I had a big binder of documentation to read through, but hese days there are a ton of Linux from scratch tutorials out there to follow.
Macintosh versus some IBM (or clone) running MS DOS is a completely different era than Windows Vista versus PowerPC Macs, which was a completely different era from Windows Store versus Mac App Store versus something like a Chromebook or iPad as a primary computing device.
Used DOS and an IBM Selectric II in highschool. Installed windows 3.1.1 in college. W95 at my first job. Upgraded to them all to W98, ME, 2000, 7, 8, 10, and 11
Installed Linux the first time with Unbuntu Warty Warthog. Had the CD mailed to me.
I still managed to fuck up GRUB today again.... because I'm very talented apparently.
Yes I did on my personal machine. I got a Compaq on sale right after XP came out in 2001. It was a really nice build that just kept running back before HP turn the brand into cheap shit.
Then my first son was born in 2004 and money was very tight for a few years. Vista came out in all its glory so I kept the Win 2K for a few more years. When 7 launched I finally replaced it in 2009. It lasted 8 years.
I currently have a 11 year old Win8 laptop that is dual booting Win10 and Mint right now ( Upgraded to a Sata SSD) My main laptop is on Win11 and is 6 years old.
I managed to shoot my windows install like half year ago by deleting the wrong stuff from my EFI partition (which is too darn small TBH) and still haven't bothered to fix it. CP77, it figures, by now runs just fine under proton.
Happens. Something like ten years ago I decided to boot into windows for the first time in a year or so and you know what happened? It installed a service pack for half an hour. Just sat there, for a year, already having downloaded the files, waiting to be booted to annoy me. I just wanted to play some Skyrim.
Well it's not in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but that's just one source. I assumed they meant "excluded" because I've never seen "discluded" used... Ever?
It's just very rare, the Oxford English Dictionary claims that it is 400 times less common than 'excluded'. I would expect many Brits and other native speakers to get confused or at least slow down when reading it too.
But the time I was ~11 I had built my own computer. Mother was kind enough to take a leap of faith and set a budget for the project. My parents are absolutely not tech people. So they had no idea what I was doing and could offer no assistance other than monetary. It worked out in the end though.
Same here, I learned by fucking it up and doing it until it worked.
Ah, I once literally burned a motherboard with an overheated CPU, as in the machine turned off when the mobo was black, smelly and bendy and something finally came loose.
That day, I learned the important lesson of having the store install the CPU for me, got a complete replacement for it too.
I've been using pop OS for 5 years and barely understand anything at all, we're not all super nerds. I got it to save a bit of upfront money on a new build with the plan to buy windows when I needed it, never needed it.
I enjoyed a lemmy moment in the thread about things the Canadian government needs to do to not be as dependent on the US and the first bullet point in a comment was switch to Linux
My guess is I'd fit u/but_my_mom_says_im_cool's definition of a "Lemmy Linux bro". I'm that person that responds to any post about bad behavior from Microsoft with some variation of "use Linux".
But I won't shame any individual for using Windows. That's their choice.
I'm the Linux/open source/digital privacy person in my friend group. And I'm vocal enough about it that people know this, but I don't shove it down anyone's throat. But I will answer questions and offer suggestions when asked. And I've had some small successes in bringing people around in this way.
Hello dear likely reddit refugee. If you want to link to a user on the Fediverse you can use this syntax @[email protected]. On most clients this will turn into a clickable link and (at least on Mastodon) it will notify them that they were mentioned.
I mean if you need some specialized proprietary software they're only runs on Windows that's one thing but we all have some old laptops sitting around that you could throw Linux mint on and be that much closer to freedom
Letting other people make decisions for you like that is weak-willed. My interest in things is intrinsic and isn't affected by external factors, yours should be too
Yeah that’s what self righteous Linux bros say. If you really believed that, you would be against all the Linux bros trying to convert everyone. I’m happy with my pc experience, im not interested in Jehova… I mean Linux thanks!
I don't care one way or the other who uses Linux and who evangelizes or demonizes Linux. I just find bandwagoning and anti-bandwagoning kind of offensive on a visceral level. Think for yourself breh. Letting strangers pull levers and push buttons in your brain is gross.
Kind of a good analogy cause if I lived in the matrix universe i would much prefer to take the blue pill and just stay in the system. I don’t wanna live underground with the filthy survivors!
Linux bros are like Rick and Morty fans. No matter how much you’re enjoying your pc experience they have to jump in to tell you that you’re wrong and everything that isn’t Linux sucks
Yeah that snark you’re showing is the kind of thing that makes people ignore your message and makes people annoyed with Linux bros. You’re only playing into the stereotype.
I'm curious what her hypothesis is, I don't think there is a correlation at all personally, seen a ton of people who know nothing about their computers regardless of Mac/Windows as their primary os.
I doubt there would be much difference. I was started on an old brick-style Mac before switching to PC and am now the most technical person in almost any group I enter. It's not as if Mac devices are entirely void of programmers and other technical users.
I'm a backend dev and the last 3 companies I've worked for are exclusively apple only. It feels, to me, like apple took over US tech startups. Obviously pretty poor sample size.
I'm pretty old an have been working in IT for almost 20 years now. Back in the day in would be more like this "hey welcome to the team, here's your PC". Someone would point to a desktop with Windows (XP) on it. If your company was "good" at IT you would have roaming profiles, so you could use any desktop with your own profile. If you would get a laptop (usually if you did IT consultancy that would be the case) it would be some locked down version of Windows where you would not even have admin rights.
In one of my first jobs a colleague (developer) couldn't do his job because his pc was so slow and locked down. One day he came into the office with a CD-ROM that had Ubuntu on it. He just wiped the desktop and installed it. As a young office worker I was shocked! You can do that???
Yeah, we're Apple only as well, but that's largely because we didn't want to deal w/ the BS of the corporate images, and they only support Windows. I could probably argue a case for Linux, but we've been on Apple for years, so that would be an uphill battle.
My anecdotal observation is the same. Most of my friends in Silicon Valley are using Macbooks, including some at some fairly mature companies like Google and Facebook.
I had a 5-year sysadmin career, dealing with some Microsoft stuff especially on identity/accounts/mailboxes through Active Directory and Exchange, but mainly did Linux specific stuff on headless servers, with desktop Linux at home.
When I switched to a non-technical career field I went with a MacBook for my laptop daily driver on the go, and kept desktop Linux at home for about 6 or 7 more years.
Now, basically a decade after that, I'm pretty much only driving MacOS on a laptop as my normal OS, with no desktop computer (just a docking station for my Apple laptop). It's got a good command line, I can still script things, I can still rely on a pretty robust FOSS software repository in homebrew, and the filesystem in MacOS makes a lot more sense to me than the Windows lettered drives and reserved/specialized folders I can never remember anymore. And nothing beats the hardware (battery life, screen resolution, touchpad feel, lid hinge quality), in my experience.
It's a balance. You want the computer to facilitate your actual work, but you also don't want to spend too much time and effort administering your own machine. So the tradeoff is between the flexibility of doing things your way versus outsourcing a lot of the things to the maintainer defaults (whether you're on Windows, MacOS, or a specific desktop environment in Linux), mindful of whether your own tweaks will break on some update.
So it's not surprising to me when programmers/developers happen to be issued a MacBook at their jobs.
My family’s first computer was a 68k Mac, specifically a Quadra 605. I tried (and failed) to teach myself C++ using that system at the tender age of 9, but eventually moved over to Windows PCs. Had a Linux-based web server running on spare parts as a teen, though, and did succeed at teaching myself PHP and later Python well enough to hack together my very own blog software. Not very good blog software, mind you, but the critical thing was that it worked! Even spent a few years as and SMB sysadmin even though my degree is in [building] architecture.
Since then I’ve drifted away from the very deep end of tech world, but I would never say that first Macintosh stunted my skill.
Played it as a kid but ngl the game is bad. It wants you to go fast but at the same time throws as many spikes and enemies as possible to prevent that. Might be better if it were widescreen.
Have you been screened for diagnosis? Because if not, there's not a great way to tell you aren't autistic. Autism occurs in even the most functional people and masking is a skill many autistic people develop to fit in without realizing they are doing it.
I don't see a reason to go for a screening without evidence to indicate I might be autistic. It may cost money to get screened, and what's the point in getting a diagnosis even if I am autistic?
Your insurance might double in price, and some people/companies/countries might do profiling. Meaning that you will be limited if you ever want to relocate in the future.
If you love your life too much you could give it a shot.
Blud, it's not even that tekky, u js choose a distro n DE press next a few times and you're done, your nan could install it.
You don't even need to touch the terminal for anything other than installing shit n updating, and u can even js use a GUI if ur that braindead u can't type in a few words into a black box.
All the Linux bashing, and calling users neeks online is js regurgitated US gov propaganda.
Windows is becoming less usable by the hour, and Apple products are becoming more expensive and less repairable so we're seeing a higher influx of users than ever, not even mentioning the fact they're both spyware controlled by a fascist orange man.
Is that not fairly normal though? I must've been around that age when someone at school handed me a mandrake disk and kicked off my first linux experience.
I'd be kinda ok with someone jokingly saying that about themselves when they're actually autistic. But just randomly calling a stranger autistic in association with a specific interest is so regressive and insulting.
I switched to Linux after my experience with Windows Millennium Edition. Many people have since referred to me as some sort of programming genius and hacker.....I don't know crap about any of that. I've simply followed instructions and referred to the help communities, whenever I've had trouble. Using the mainstream distributions (I'm guessing) has kept me from having much trouble.
I think my kids may benefit, as my wife only uses Mac, I have 2 Ubuntus and a Mint, and the kids use Chromebooks at school. We have 2 iPad and a Galaxy tab in the house. 1 kid has an Android phone and the other an iPhone. My wife and I both have flagship Android phones.
Sometimes it's fun to watch them debate over which systems they prefer, depending on the school projects they work on.
Started on Mac. Still use one as my (not so-) daily driver. In the ~30 years in between, I've (professionally) been a PC field service technician, mainframe operator, datacenter tech, enterprise monitoring administrator, and a whole slew of other tech hats. In my personal time, I learned OS 7-8 inside and out (ResEdit ftw), built PCs out of spare parts (throwing Linux on some just to do it), turned an old tower into an external SCSI enclosure, built VM stacks for fun (DOS 6.2, Win 3.1, Win95 all on the same Mac box decades ago, just because I could), half-wired my parents' house for ethernet, built them a Hackintosh from parts, stuck a Linux VM on an old laptop to host Citrix so I could remote into work and have that one extra layer between personal and business, and gotten completely disillusioned with tech as a hobby and as the framework for modern society.
Some people are just naturally computer savvy. My class and I were taught on how to use command prompt, but only few of us could get it. We just wanted to play Command and Conquer and DOTA, and leave the tweaking to the nerds.
Nah, I really don't think anyone is naturally computer savvy. Computers are literally the furthest thing from nature in existence. Some children are given the freedom and/or encouragement to explore computers, and some aren't. Giving a child an iPhone or an iPad as their first computer is the opposite of this, btw.
Edit: For the record, nobody I know who uses a terminal on a daily basis used it in class for the first time.
Can confirm. Started on a Mac. Was using terminal, hex editor, resource forks, and squirrel basic to modify my Catz installation before I was 10. Windows peers seemed to think computers were made of rainbows and unicorns
Weird. I was thinking the post was saying Mac kids were less digitally literate because of the whole "it just works" culture. When I ran a help desk, the Mac users were definitely less adept. The pattern seems to continue with iPhone and Android users I encounter today.
Well, now I really want to see the results of such a study. My hypothesis is that it actually has more to do with the activities each computer is used for rather than the actual OS. As in, gamers (Windows) are more likely to be tech literate than authors (Mac), or graphic artists (Mac) are more likely to be tech literate than office workers (Windows).
Yeah, that is a pattern I've seen. I grew up having to troubleshoot stuff offline just to get a modem on PC to work on dialup to get to a BBS or CompuServe or editing mods for computer games, whereas my Mac friends were mostly playing with artistic programs on Mac. I also used artistic software on PC but that too required more skill. I don't recall seeing them deal with a command line interface whereas most of my earliest games ran in DOS.
Yeah. But that’s since 2001. So 24 years of Unix. Pretty sure that covers most recent grads or new hires ;)
I started on BASIC Apple IIe (had the full numpad for playing math munchers faster!)
Then we had a system 6 Performa that later got upgraded to System 7 then even 8 before I was able to save for a PC (Pentium 3 333mhz) during my last year of high school.
When I was a child I was trying to type QBASIC code from a magazine called DOS into my (inherited) Atari 1024ST with Omikron Basic and tried to figure out why that didn't work so well.
Omg, this is the best early-morning laugh that I've had in a long time. Mac-nerd, here. From childhood. Also a Linux nerd for servers. This is so great that I immediately sent it to friends in tech. I'm still laughing like a nut.
The thing with Macs is you don't have to spend 80% of your time troubleshooting them. I love my Mac and OS X. I boot it up, log in, and don't have to think about it. The UI is very intuitive and easy to use as well.
I started on Commodore (Vic20 that I don't remember much, C64, and A500) mostly with a tiny bit of Atari and then was on Windows at home for decades (I tried installing Linux (Mandrake and Redhat) back when it fit on a floppy, but without a lot of success). I guess I'm too old and not neurotypical enough?
Can we stop throwing around "autistic" for anything? Have people actually ever met autistic kids? It has nothing to do about having uncommon interest, it imply much more things than that.
my favorite pornotrope is how people still swear by the belief that apple computers suffer no "malware", because why are androids apparently so promiscuous like any black person wants to spoof torvalds' github username
back in the 80's, whole rooms of Apple Computers sat empty, all day, everyday.
At all the different schools i went to as a child.
I assume it's because none of the teachers wanted to learn them, it was real fucking shitty growing up surrounded by so many stupid fucks.
but now, soon, AI will be x1000000000⁷ better teachers. So at least the children will have an actual chance in this world, and so many of them won't choose liberal arts as their course of studies. -all that time they were just disciplining the children
I'm currently training a new employee who comes from the "My school handed out Chromebooks" generation, and hol...eee...shit... Its frustrating as hell.
Literally every single instruction gets followed up with "no...double click"
FML
I am that generation, but I was blessed enough (not dirt poor) to have a family Windows PC at home, and my mom got me a HP laptop later because she knew I was gonna be going to a tech school program in my Junior year, and knew that Chromebooks were dogshit.
My tech teacher would constantly complain about the kids who had like zero Windows knowledge, and couldn't do shit like open a PDF in word, or simply find the terminal. I knew this shit would happen when I was in school, I literally told my mom that anyone who can't afford a windows device at home is fucked in the work environment. Compounded by the fact most teens are iPhone purists and make fun of Android, they're just too used to "shit just works"
Hmm.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/opening-pdfs-in-word-1d1d2acc-afa0-46ef-891d-b76bcd83d9c8
Word can open PDFs in word for editing them.
It's honestly more intuitive than opening then with the internet browser (edge).
Thank you, I literally switched over to my Windows partition just to try to prove that (but you gotta pay to download it anyway...)
They've got an online version of word and Excel for free, not sure about editing a PDF on there but the online Excel works really well.
LibreOffice has free editing of .pdf files in writer. So glad I switched to Linux last year. Games are pretty seamless too.
Yeah games hold me back. I got teenage niblings that play on my PC when they come over and they want Windows and fortnite. It's a nice family/friends setup though, 4k tv with game mode and four controllers.
You just screenshot it and then paste as image!
It's a thing.
"Blessed" and "windows" on the same sentence only make sense of there's a fire and you can jump from one.
I get it, Windows is trash, but at least using Windows and Android got me to care about what my device does and can do, eventually leading to me getting Fedora.
The point is that I have experience with having to fix the occasional issue and know basic computer skills due to using Windows.
Yeah yeah we get it, you hate Windows.
But if the alternative is nothing more than a phone OS, Windows is a blessing.
I switched to Linux with Ubuntu 8.04 (April 2008). I assume your comment refers to a time before that.
I started using Linux maybe 10 years earlier than that and stopped using Windows at all around Windows 7 (at which point it was just the occasional dual-boot into Windows for a few games every couple of months) and at no point can I remember a time when Windows was good in that time period.
Hardy Heron gang rise up! Me too! I'm now in my late 30's and still need to venture into the world of PGP encryption. And my daily driver is Debian. Distro hopped in the early years... Fond memories of BunsenLabs #! (Crunchbang) and Slax. Had many toxic encounters with OpenSUSE forum users, twas a major turnoff for a young penguin.
Yeah, I'm having a lot of trouble working with younger hires, and I'm not even 30. If I had to summarize, they're able to do things like memorize button combos, but there's just no comprehension about the how the buttons were only pressed to achieve larger goals.
My favorite part is that my older coworkers are still convinced that Gen Z is super computer savvy.
Compared to Boomers, maybe...
Sounds like my mum. Follows the process without understanding the reason why.
How are they editing videos (even with CapCut)?
I can sympathize from both directions. Teaching my iPad generation nephew to use a Windows PC is a challenge.
At the same time I look like a total incompetent when trying to do anything using the GUI on a Mac. My muscle memory is just plain wrong after 20+ years of Windows and assorted Linux variants I keep clicking in completely the wrong places
Over the last 40 years I've used Mac, Windows and various Linux desktops as well as the Atari desktop called GEM (used it in an early music studio), Amiga and BeOS. Probably a few more over the years.
I always go back to Windows because it has support for pretty much everything I throw at it and the OS isn't as bad as nerds want you to believe. Yeah, it crashes and gets unstable from time to time, but EVERYTHING does.
" Yeah, it crashes and gets unstable from time to time, but EVERYTHING does. "
** Debian enters the chat **
Debian can be just unstable as everything else. Sorry.
Haven't seen it. Only with NVidia stuff. And we all know why that is. I've been rock solid since my twenties. Come at me, bro!
OS religious fanatics are weird, bro.
Point to where the .deb package hurt you.
Everything does, indeed, crash; but the rate on windows is ridiculous. I was thinking the same way as you, but a year ago was given a windows laptop at work, which was my first windows device in close to 5 years ar the time.
It is, without any exaggeration, completely unusable compared to my tiny sway or hyprland desktop. Got a replacement laptop about half a year in - same nonsense. So hardware faults are ruled out.
Eventually made a deal and set up my favourite distro on it - all insanity went away. It might not run photoshop, but I don't need it. At least it doesn't crash every few days.
Many words to say a simple thing: people get used to software being shit. It's really nowhere near that bad if you leave windows environment.
I hate to say it, but maybe you just didn't take the time to learn Windows?
I've had the same pc running windows 10 day and night for 5+ years (I think I've literally had to reboot it 9 times in all that time), and it has never crashed. And I have RUN that thing ragged.
I had used windows for decades prior to that. Never been a windows admin professionally, but definitely new my way around.
I've had my desktops with reasonable uptime as well, but it was on win7 (and probably 10). However, system uptime is not everything. Things running within that system have to keep running as well and they don't.
I think thr closest comparison I can give is upgrading speakers - you can't really tell a higher quality speaker plays your music any better until months pass, you get used to it and then hear the same track on a previous set. It's night and day.
I'm as much as a Linux guy as anybody else, but this really just seems like an interfacing issue. I've never done anything professionally with computers, but I run all of my self hosted stuff right on my windows machine (no virtualization) with no issues. The only times things MIGHT go down is when I'm updating. I've never used Windows 11, so if it's as bad as Windows Vista then that makes sense, but then why not just use Windows 10? It exists and you can use it and it works
I don't want to use windows. I've found something better.
I started dual booting Ubuntu and Windows when I was 19 or so and when I'd go back to my Windows partition to do something I realized I had either forgotten or never learned a lot of how to navigate it. I opened it and went "Where is my terminal?" and then remembered cmd and started using it to look for a directory before remembering that's never how I'd done things on Windows. It was an odd experience.
Funny. We had a bunch of Lenovo laptops we ordered in for the developers. A few stayed as Windows and a bunch got various versions of Linux installed.
The Windows laptop chugged along and did their thing, We had a problem with some of the Linux laptops overheating. Some just were unusable unstable.
Ideally we all use what works best for us. I'm not going to get into an argument over which OS is better because clearly it has to do with what hardware it's on, how it's setup, and who is running it. I also think it's pathetic to make an OS part of my personality. I use whatever at work, but at home I use Windows so I don't have to mess with things. I get it installed on good hardware, update some drivers, and the thing chugs along fine. I can't remember when my workstation at home has ever crashed. My Windows laptop does from time to time because it's a Asus ROG that it a bit dodgy. My Apple laptop and my Chromebook are buggy and crashes as well so maybe I just have bad luck with personal laptops.
Have a nice day!
My Windows 11 laptop has never crashed in all the time I've owned it.
I don't get it. There is no double click on chromebooks?
It's there, it's just not necessary for launching an application. It's the same as on Android.
I wonder if it’s really a computer issue or a more general lack of problem-solving skills. In your 20s you should still easily and quickly be able to switch to any OS and understand the logic. If you don’t the issue is likely not limited to computer-skills.
Have the exact opposite problem: double clickers are a hell in a web world !
Tbf installing linux is not that hard
Back in the day when installing Solaris and OpenBSD and such you had to specify in numerical values the number of sectors of hard disk space you wanted to format drives with. Shit is considerably easier now with modern UNIXy systems.
Back in what day? My first Linux was in the early 2000s, and even back then it wasn't any more complicated than a Windows install.
When I installed Linux for the first time around that time frame, I had to write X configs (for XFree86, not X.org) by hand. And be sure to get your monitor timings exactly right or risk permanent damage, said the scary warning.
That was always 'fun'. Trying to find things like the 'front porch' timings was an exercise in frustration at times. Then put it all together and try it, hoping it either worked, or at least didn't go too badly. The 'boiinng' noise sone monitors would make was always a bit alarming.
I ended up soldering together an adapter to convert from VGA to a monitor that took separate red, green and blue inputs with a sync pulse on green. Working out the timings for that was interesting, but I doubt any other PC OS could have driven it.
The mid 1990s for me, OpenBSD came out in 1996 and Solaris was Solaris was like 1992. I was admining a Solaris SPARC station back around 1997 that had a gnarly install if I remember correctly. It was on 3.5” floppies and I still have that SPARC station and the original Solaris OS sitting in the basement collecting dust. At one point that SPARC was being used by some of us working with the PHP group to diagnose file system limits on Solaris and build PHP binaries back when I was involved in PHP development. Fun times.
My first Linux install was like Red Hat 5.2 or something and it was much nicer.
It's absolutely insane how much progress was made from 1995-2000.
Oh man. I remember Solaris. I tried to install that on something and never got it running.
Bah! Young'un! ;) Installing Slackware off of a stack of 5 1/4" floppies and trying to work out your harddrive's geometry without switching the machine off to look at the label was a challenge. Doubly so if you were trying to dual boot.
Lemmites are old brah
my first linux install was on a 486 from a box of floppies we got at a computer convention in the late 90s. Back then you had to do all sorts of crazy setup steps like figuring out drive layouts and screen frequencies. It was craziness but when you're 13 and want to tinker with computers that's what you did.
I've met people that struggle with the concept of shutting a computer down.
You are 100% overestimating the average non-techy
Watching a millennial (around the same age as myself) simply turn off the monitor when I asked her to restart really put things into perspective for me.
I don't take any knowledge for granted anymore, all my clients get step-by-step, stupid-proof instructions for even the simplest tasks.
You are assuming they can't when in reality it is more that this is learned helplessness, they have been told over and over that they wouldn't understand anyway so they aren't even trying.
Oh no, these very same people have been told time and time again they can.
It's not a can't, it's a won't.
Ah, the learned helplessness<->weaponized incompetence spectrum.
Don’t forget to park the hard drive before you power down.
Ok so now you gotta help me figure something out
Im sort of a hoarder when it comes to my data - as in I don't know what takes up 80% of my storage space but it does.
And I really want to switch to Linux, but the daunting task of finding where 8+ TB of data needs to go before I install it has slowed me down.
Actually 8TB isn't that bad thinking about it. Maybe it's just time to find anything I care about and just purge the rest, and start fresh?
It doesn't go anywhere. In the file explorer you can just open the disk and work with the contents. Linux can access ntfs drives.
You could detach them before installation, I did that with windows too in the past, to make sure they aren't accidentally formatted during installation.
:O that's amazing
When you're on Linux, use czkawka to clean out your files. It searches for duplicates, big files, empty files, ...
Also works on windows, if you want to clean first.
https://github.com/qarmin/czkawka
btw, you're creating backups, right? A big disk 8TB is fairly inexpensive. Back it up before you do large file transactions.
... Yeah we'll go with the idea that I'm creating backups
Oh it's not on the same drive as windows. It's just scattered amongst various SSDs
I'd recommend Winderstat to figure out what's causing the bloat
“Do you want to install GRUB on /dev/sda?”
Solved with just one drive.
I overclomplicate my setup by having like 4 old hard drives of different sizes, cause I hate to throw them out.
You're right. In fact, I think the easiest OS to install is probably some sort of Linux distro. But most people don't install their OS. And Windows is shipped built-in on many computers (even though we're starting to see some Linux options as well).
I grew up on Windows my entire life, but really only as a user until I got into teenagehood. I still remember when I was 12 and had to reinstall Windows 7, and I was given the option of either x64 or x86. I thought "Oh, my laptop is stupidly old, it's gotta be the lower number" and it took an embarrassing amount of time to then actually try the x86 option which immediately worked.
Now.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ been quite easy for like a decade at least
Two decades minimum, my first install was an Xubuntu live cd more than 20 years ago
Fairsies :3 I just said a decade cause that's my first experience, and I couldn't be bothered looking into when the install process was really simplified for a random lemmy comment lol
Yeah no fun.
Ikr? At least we still have LFS /j
Easier than installing any other OS.
I recently had to make a bootable iso for windows for someone in my family and it was a way bigger pain than linux, so.. not wrong lol
Never tried installing mac so can't say how the experience of that is :3
Installing MacOS on Intel Macs is really easy if you still have your recovery partition. It's not even hard even if you've overwritten the recovery partition, so long as you have the ability to image a USB drive with a MacOS installer (which is trivial if you have another Mac running MacOS).
I haven't messed around with the Apple silicon versions, though. Maybe I'll give it a try sometime, used M1 MacBooks are selling for pretty cheap.
At 12 I would still have been too scared of breaking something, which I think is a reasonable fear, at the very least if you're sharing a PC.
At 12 I was too scared of downloading most programs for fear of viruses, if I had been asked to partition a drive I would have cried.
Even arch was easy back in 2010 as long as you could read the guide.
When I dual booted Ubuntu about a decade ago it took an afternoon and needed a lot of extra command line stuff to do anything.
Last night I installed Linux mint and it took about two hours. Most of the time was me rebooting my ancient laptop though.
On a newer (less worn out) machine I could probably do it notably faster.
Funnily enough I've had the opposite experience: installing Linux on a 12 year old laptop: 30 mins and done, installing windows on the same laptop: 5 and a half hours
My point is that if my machine didn't take 2-3 mins to restart (and all the usb slots were stable) then I probably wouldn't have needed much more than the 30 mins.
Thinking about it, I probably did reboot about 30 times for various different things.
Been a PC/windows user and builder since the 2000s and as someone who doesn’t work in coding or tech. Linux confuses me
I mean.. I don't work in coding or tech either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ installing linux is literally just putting an ISO on a USB drive tho
Linux users are inherently more tech savvy because there are no limits. On the contrary, there is documentation and free knowledge aplenty. Windows and especially Mac hide and obfuscate everything happening under the hood and you are vaguely warned away from doing anything not specifically blessed by the corporation. That's why those users are less tech savvy on average.
Yeah, leave some spunk for the rest of us!
I'll jerk off as hard as I want, thanks.
Using Linux counts as jerking off? You should try talking to a Mac user
It's okay they've built up calluses over the years.
Just the fact that someone is using Linux at all means they are probably tech savvy, simply for the fact they had to install it in their own. If all prebuilds came with Linux, it would likely be the other way around. (Although why someone would, out of free will, go and install Windows is beyond me)
Interestingly people who learned to use PCs back in the early days most likely installed themselves Windows on their own MS-DOS PCs and probably also upgraded it themselves, whilst Mac users did not.
Which kinda gives weight to the idea that it's the technical barrier to entry into using a certain OS that makes for tech savvy users of that OS: they had to be tech savvy already (or at least have the mindset of trying stuff out which is IMHO what creates tech savvy users) in order to get that OS running.
...because it's the easiest OS to install and use?
Mac use to be much more open and direct about things. Even the pre-unix Macs were more obvious then Windows of the same era. Unix Mac was way, way more adjustable and while it's not system related, shipped with iMovie and other bits of software for creating things.
Make the study about iPad/mobile computer kids verse desktop kids and you'll see a sharper contrast.
I think that we need convergent offering systems because the Fisher Price nature of mobile operating systems is so unlimited, smartphones aren't even Limited in their Hardware like they were 10 to 15 years ago. Linux funds already exist they're just expensive and usually a bit of respect but there's no reason we can't have the desktop experience on the go. If nothing else you can strap a screen and a battery to a Raspberry Pi and that serves as the proof of concept, now you just make that in an appealing form factor and you're all set
You clearly have not met my parents. I installed Linux on their PC because they are not tech savvy. Doesn't matter if Windows or Linux breaks down, they can't fix it anyway, so might as well reduce the chance they manage to infect their device with all kinds of malware.
Which distro did you install for them? Same ship, and it's sinking :'( They've got an old (2011?) Toshiba Satellite that's on thin ice when Windoze 10 becomes EOL this October. PopOS! or something else?
I would look at the Atomic spins from Fedora or other immutable distro. Your Parents can be separated from the OS while being able to install/uninstall user software as they like without a problem. The OS can update itself in the background without them even knowing about it. The Budgie version is simple to use with an easy to get used desktop. It also offers just enough customization to make most people happy. The atomic Cosmic spin might also be a possibility also.
Thanks for the suggestion, will check it out.
It is Ubuntu, not my favourite distribution, but easy enough that they are able to work with it. Most software is also either available through the included repositories or has a dedicated Ubuntu executable.
It also has LTS versions, which are supported for quite some time. That way you can set up a system which they can use for years without having to deal with major changes during that period.
I think that's a pretty recent phenomenon and it still requires that there's a good friend or family member who is a Techie to actually happen.
That said, thinking about your post does bring a whole "chicken and the egg" possibility to mind: are Linux users tech savvy because of the open nature of Linux or are Linux users tech savvy because for most people the technical barrier to entry into running Linux is still high enough that they have to be tech savvy to begin with in order to start running Linux?
I think it requires a bit of both.The average user only wants their computer to work and doesn't care if Linux is OSS or exposes the inner workings of the system more. For them there is simply no reason to install a different OS, pre-installed Windows might be a bit annoying at times, but generally it does its job just fine.
For us choosing a distribution, downloading an ISO image, creating a boot disk and going through an installer which asks 'scary stuff' like "do you want to accept our partition suggestion, or do you want to create your own? Oh PS this action may RESULT IN DATA LOSS" is all easy-peasy.
We are able to find alternatives for programs we need, or are able to track down a Linux version. Either in the distro's package repo, Flatpak (or Snap, for the more masochistic minded) or by compiling from source (with all the complications and parameter setting that sometimes requires). Or we run the Windows EXE in Wine.
Most users simply aren't tech savvy and/or don't care enough to go through these kinds of 'hoops'. Acquiring this knowledge requires investment, without motivation (which usually needs to be intrinsic) that simply won't happen.
We hate stuff like Windows being a black box and Microsoft trying to push their MS accounts down our throats enough to not blindly put up with it. Most people I know just create the account, go through with the installation and go along with their days.
It's the painful truth that yes, it requires a certain attitude to want to switch to a different OS.
What also doesn't help is the attitude I sometimes see in the Linux community. For example, I recently posted my experience with gaming on Linux. In short: it sucked, badly. Some responses I got were helpful, but there were also a lot of 'meh, that game publisher sucks anyway, you shouldn't play their games' responses. Fortunately I'm not a novice when it comes to Linux, but I can image a beginner would just say 'screw it', install Windows again and advise everybody they know to stay the fuck away from that elitist cesspool. If we hate that MS dictates what we do with our devices we sure as hell shouldn't start dictating what our (potential) fellow Linux users do with theirs.
I agree there is an obfuscation of what is happening under the hood in Windows and Mac systems- but that doesn't stop the tech savvy from digging a bit further. I played around with resource files back in my System 6, 7, and 8 days, and got pretty comfortable with registry edits from Windows 95 onwards.
I think it's more that Linux only appeals to the tech savvy, precisely because of the lack of that obfuscation layer.
I grew up with mac, but I was always so frustrated that I couldn't play the games and run the programs my friends could on their computers. I finally bought my own PC in high school, and was so happy to have the control I always wanted. I haven't switched to Linux yet, but at this point it's inevitable; I'm just dragging my feet on figuring it out.
Download VirtualBox, its free and open source. Download a few Linux isos, actual Linux isos, and fire them up in a VM to see what sticks out to you. People usually recommend Mint As a bridge from Windows, personally I'm liking PopOS a lot more than I thought I would. Both are based on Ubuntu which is ubiquitous. I hear a lot about immutable distros, but I haven't ventured there yet. Point is you can figure it out for free and completely without hassle.
Thanks for the tips! I'll have to check that out.
VMs are a good way to dip your toes, but honestly, doesn't hurt to boot from a USB and try that way too. That's how I checked of Fedora, which I stuck with and now dual boot with. I rarely go to my Windows partition unless there's something I have to do that can't be done on Linux.
I don't touch terminal often, and I use Fedora Silverblue, which is immutable, making it harder for me to fuck up my system somehow. I have used the rollback feature due to updates with the kernel breaking bluetooth, so there's the bright side of rollback distros.
like shitpost OSes?
My daily driver is Hannah Montana Linux, keeping amongOS running in my server
as God intended o7
Sometimes the term 'linux ISOs" are used to describe other less innocent files
like porn? how would you setup porn in a vm? still confused 😭
Lol maybe sometimes porn but usually just pirated digital media. As in 'I have 32TB of Linux ISOs.'
I installed Linux mint last night and honestly it was a lot easier than I thought. I work on Mac and game on windows usually.
It took a couple of hours (mainly rebooting my machine over and over because it's so beat up) but the install and documentation held my hand most of the way, and a YouTube video covered the rest.
Now I get to see how smooth it is to use before I put it on my main machine.
A lot of people suggest a dual-boot (more technical, but it will run faster than virtualbox) as then you can just reboot the computer and use the windows "half" whenever you need to do something Linux can't handle.
Just be aware that clicking the wrong button may write over the windows part of your machine. There was a lot of "are you SURE?" confirms first though. If that makes you too nervous, then maybe try virtualbox instead first (as the others suggest).
My father made me figure out how to compile Linux drivers for a modem card before I could have internet.
Forgot the /s?
Not necessarily. For those who grew up with winmodems it was the reality. Fortunately where I grew up, dsl and more importantly coaxial broadband took off veey early on. Though there were dsl softmodems, these were rare. The difficult part was a windows logon software provided in isp cds. For macos users the isps usually sent IT guys with 'drivers' initially and for linux users they sent IT guys to help install windows. The 'dialing' program did nothing but few http requests but in those days packet capturing was not so easy.
A friend of mine 'hacked' the isp (weak telnet or ftp) to steal the debug version of said software to figure out the requests in logs. Unfortunately the local isp discovered the 'hack' somehow and found the 'proof' by seeing linux cds on their desk. Isp guys issued a pretty serious warning for their parents that the kid is becoming a hacker/criminal by using linux. This reminds of that famous text.
Perhaps they were provided the driver source on cd. So they had to figure the cd ROM drivers first, which were provided on a floppy disk.
The dad just dropped this one day and refused to elaborate further
Why? My parents couldn't teach me how to get a modem working, so when we bought a 14k4 modem, I had to install that thing at age 12. Granted, I didn't have to compile them, they came on a floppy, but it wasn't exactly userfriendly
How that make you feel? I intend to do the same to my kids tbh. Starting with problem solving exercises they're learning at school and make it more advanced as it goes just to unblock the OS. I'm sure eventually I'll need to take matters to a kernel level to be able to keep it going, but I'm fine with that as long as we're all learning.
It was a fun project and we actually did compile everything starting with a boot floppy and RHEL source. Dad did most of the work to start and gradually handed it off to me to get different things working. I had a big binder of documentation to read through, but hese days there are a ton of Linux from scratch tutorials out there to follow.
I started on a Mac and now I'm an IT expert.
But that's because my next computer was a Dell.
My condolences, on both counts.
Could be worse. Dad had a Gateway desktop. I'm still licking old wounds...
I started with a DEC Alpha CP/M, then moved to a Macintosh SE. And yes, I do IT. Where does that place me?
Over 40.
Was it a desktop mac? I feel like only laptop macs should count for the experiment.
Laptops really weren't a thing back then.
Year of birth matters a lot for this experiment.
Macintosh versus some IBM (or clone) running MS DOS is a completely different era than Windows Vista versus PowerPC Macs, which was a completely different era from Windows Store versus Mac App Store versus something like a Chromebook or iPad as a primary computing device.
Run a second correlation on the incomes of these families and the tech literacy of their children and see what you find. I have a hypothesis.
Looking at the comments, it occurs to me that we're not a representative section of the online community.
Were literally people who went out of their way to not use a conventional/commercial tech product.
I wonder what the % of people on here is who have built a pc, used a raspberry pi or installed Linux compared to the outside world.
I would bet the number is extremely high. I've done all these things.
I used MacOS for a bit, switched to Windows, then when I was 15 I installed Linux :3
Granted I do very much have autism
I used MS-DOS as a kid and installed Windows 98 when I was 12. Started to use Linux in my 20s.
Granted I am old.
Used DOS and an IBM Selectric II in highschool. Installed windows 3.1.1 in college. W95 at my first job. Upgraded to them all to W98, ME, 2000, 7, 8, 10, and 11
Installed Linux the first time with Unbuntu Warty Warthog. Had the CD mailed to me.
I still managed to fuck up GRUB today again.... because I'm very talented apparently.
Can you even call yourself a Linux user if you didn't fuck up GRUB a few times? 😀
Did you really stick it out all the way from Win2K to Windows 7?
Yes I did on my personal machine. I got a Compaq on sale right after XP came out in 2001. It was a really nice build that just kept running back before HP turn the brand into cheap shit.
Then my first son was born in 2004 and money was very tight for a few years. Vista came out in all its glory so I kept the Win 2K for a few more years. When 7 launched I finally replaced it in 2009. It lasted 8 years.
I currently have a 11 year old Win8 laptop that is dual booting Win10 and Mint right now ( Upgraded to a Sata SSD) My main laptop is on Win11 and is 6 years old.
I managed to shoot my windows install like half year ago by deleting the wrong stuff from my EFI partition (which is too darn small TBH) and still haven't bothered to fix it. CP77, it figures, by now runs just fine under proton.
Happens. Something like ten years ago I decided to boot into windows for the first time in a year or so and you know what happened? It installed a service pack for half an hour. Just sat there, for a year, already having downloaded the files, waiting to be booted to annoy me. I just wanted to play some Skyrim.
Discluded? Are you sure you don't mean excounted?
Disclude: To exclude, not include, to remove from inclusion
Well it's not in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but that's just one source. I assumed they meant "excluded" because I've never seen "discluded" used... Ever?
No, discounted
oh nice, 20% off
Must be hard to understand these terms as an American I guess.
It's just very rare, the Oxford English Dictionary claims that it is 400 times less common than 'excluded'. I would expect many Brits and other native speakers to get confused or at least slow down when reading it too.
I actually meant it as a joke about tariffs and discounts, not to shame someone. My bad.
Oh, yeah that makes sense too.
If you've had to mess around with EMM386 and HIMEM settings to play Wing Commander 2, you win.
That game was super fun
Same here, I learned by fucking it up and doing it until it worked.
Ah, I once literally burned a motherboard with an overheated CPU, as in the machine turned off when the mobo was black, smelly and bendy and something finally came loose.
That day, I learned the important lesson of having the store install the CPU for me, got a complete replacement for it too.
I started on a Mac, and now I live as a nomadic caveman, never contacting the civilized world.
Lemmy Linux bros make me avoid Linux at all costs
I've been using pop OS for 5 years and barely understand anything at all, we're not all super nerds. I got it to save a bit of upfront money on a new build with the plan to buy windows when I needed it, never needed it.
I’ve been using windows since 3.11 and building my own machines since XP and I have never paid any money for windows lawl
I enjoyed a lemmy moment in the thread about things the Canadian government needs to do to not be as dependent on the US and the first bullet point in a comment was switch to Linux
Keeping you off Linux has been the goal all along
Yeah I use Linux but I also hate people who shame people who use windows because it does what they need.
I agree with this sentiment.
My guess is I'd fit u/but_my_mom_says_im_cool's definition of a "Lemmy Linux bro". I'm that person that responds to any post about bad behavior from Microsoft with some variation of "use Linux".
But I won't shame any individual for using Windows. That's their choice.
I'm the Linux/open source/digital privacy person in my friend group. And I'm vocal enough about it that people know this, but I don't shove it down anyone's throat. But I will answer questions and offer suggestions when asked. And I've had some small successes in bringing people around in this way.
Hello dear likely reddit refugee. If you want to link to a user on the Fediverse you can use this syntax @[email protected]. On most clients this will turn into a clickable link and (at least on Mastodon) it will notify them that they were mentioned.
You guess right! Thanks for providing the correct syntax.
I don't think they should be ashamed of using Windows just because it's Windows, I think they should be ashamed for so many other reasons.
(I mostly use Windows)
I mean if you need some specialized proprietary software they're only runs on Windows that's one thing but we all have some old laptops sitting around that you could throw Linux mint on and be that much closer to freedom
Cool story....bro
Letting other people make decisions for you like that is weak-willed. My interest in things is intrinsic and isn't affected by external factors, yours should be too
Yeah that’s what self righteous Linux bros say. If you really believed that, you would be against all the Linux bros trying to convert everyone. I’m happy with my pc experience, im not interested in Jehova… I mean Linux thanks!
I don't care one way or the other who uses Linux and who evangelizes or demonizes Linux. I just find bandwagoning and anti-bandwagoning kind of offensive on a visceral level. Think for yourself breh. Letting strangers pull levers and push buttons in your brain is gross.
But you do it too. No matter how self righteous or “above it all” you pretend to be, because everyone does it to some level about something
We see ourselves as like Morpheus from The Matrix. we're trying to get people to take the red pill
Kind of a good analogy cause if I lived in the matrix universe i would much prefer to take the blue pill and just stay in the system. I don’t wanna live underground with the filthy survivors!
True
I feel the same, I'm genuinely starting to despise Linux users because of this site. Worse than vegans.
Linux bros are like Rick and Morty fans. No matter how much you’re enjoying your pc experience they have to jump in to tell you that you’re wrong and everything that isn’t Linux sucks
Yep. Once I uninstalled Onedrive, turned off the news and stock numbers etc on the login screen etc, it's ticked along just fine.
People massively overstate how bad it is.
I have had windows change my privacy settings multiple times on update.
I'm guessing you use a Microsoft account?
Nope, local account.
"But all those ads in your OS! Oh the humanity!"
disables suggestions with one checkbox
To be fair, I shouldn't really have to do any of that, but people are absolute drama queens about it.
What's wrong with vegans?
The joke is that they can't resist telling people they're vegans.
I’m a Linux user but some of the people on here make me want to go back to Windows.
What's stopping you? It's a personal choice, pretty much only you cares, you should do what you like.
I use windons for 35 hours a week and linus for like 5. but i can still pretend i'm a linux user on here and no one gives a fuck..
Yeah, people with a good message that annoy you should be ignored. That's how logic works...
Yeah that snark you’re showing is the kind of thing that makes people ignore your message and makes people annoyed with Linux bros. You’re only playing into the stereotype.
Thanks for proving their point
Seems to be how the world works for sure.
I'm curious what her hypothesis is, I don't think there is a correlation at all personally, seen a ton of people who know nothing about their computers regardless of Mac/Windows as their primary os.
I doubt there would be much difference. I was started on an old brick-style Mac before switching to PC and am now the most technical person in almost any group I enter. It's not as if Mac devices are entirely void of programmers and other technical users.
Yeah, Apple computers are disproportionately common at tech conferences and meetups.
I'm a backend dev and the last 3 companies I've worked for are exclusively apple only. It feels, to me, like apple took over US tech startups. Obviously pretty poor sample size.
I'm pretty old an have been working in IT for almost 20 years now. Back in the day in would be more like this "hey welcome to the team, here's your PC". Someone would point to a desktop with Windows (XP) on it. If your company was "good" at IT you would have roaming profiles, so you could use any desktop with your own profile. If you would get a laptop (usually if you did IT consultancy that would be the case) it would be some locked down version of Windows where you would not even have admin rights.
In one of my first jobs a colleague (developer) couldn't do his job because his pc was so slow and locked down. One day he came into the office with a CD-ROM that had Ubuntu on it. He just wiped the desktop and installed it. As a young office worker I was shocked! You can do that???
Yeah, we're Apple only as well, but that's largely because we didn't want to deal w/ the BS of the corporate images, and they only support Windows. I could probably argue a case for Linux, but we've been on Apple for years, so that would be an uphill battle.
My anecdotal observation is the same. Most of my friends in Silicon Valley are using Macbooks, including some at some fairly mature companies like Google and Facebook.
I had a 5-year sysadmin career, dealing with some Microsoft stuff especially on identity/accounts/mailboxes through Active Directory and Exchange, but mainly did Linux specific stuff on headless servers, with desktop Linux at home.
When I switched to a non-technical career field I went with a MacBook for my laptop daily driver on the go, and kept desktop Linux at home for about 6 or 7 more years.
Now, basically a decade after that, I'm pretty much only driving MacOS on a laptop as my normal OS, with no desktop computer (just a docking station for my Apple laptop). It's got a good command line, I can still script things, I can still rely on a pretty robust FOSS software repository in homebrew, and the filesystem in MacOS makes a lot more sense to me than the Windows lettered drives and reserved/specialized folders I can never remember anymore. And nothing beats the hardware (battery life, screen resolution, touchpad feel, lid hinge quality), in my experience.
It's a balance. You want the computer to facilitate your actual work, but you also don't want to spend too much time and effort administering your own machine. So the tradeoff is between the flexibility of doing things your way versus outsourcing a lot of the things to the maintainer defaults (whether you're on Windows, MacOS, or a specific desktop environment in Linux), mindful of whether your own tweaks will break on some update.
So it's not surprising to me when programmers/developers happen to be issued a MacBook at their jobs.
Well you have access to a lot of the same CLIs that Linux users get, right?
I'm not a fan, but I know a handful of professional developers who main apples.
My family’s first computer was a 68k Mac, specifically a Quadra 605. I tried (and failed) to teach myself C++ using that system at the tender age of 9, but eventually moved over to Windows PCs. Had a Linux-based web server running on spare parts as a teen, though, and did succeed at teaching myself PHP and later Python well enough to hack together my very own blog software. Not very good blog software, mind you, but the critical thing was that it worked! Even spent a few years as and SMB sysadmin even though my degree is in [building] architecture.
Since then I’ve drifted away from the very deep end of tech world, but I would never say that first Macintosh stunted my skill.
(100% autistic tho, so ymmv)
Dislike the idea that only autistic people use linux.
Only the ones who install it at 12
I did that, not autistic.
I too have never been diagnosed, but I do have my suspicions.
What are your feelings about Sonic?
Played it as a kid but ngl the game is bad. It wants you to go fast but at the same time throws as many spikes and enemies as possible to prevent that. Might be better if it were widescreen.
Have you been screened for diagnosis? Because if not, there's not a great way to tell you aren't autistic. Autism occurs in even the most functional people and masking is a skill many autistic people develop to fit in without realizing they are doing it.
I don't see a reason to go for a screening without evidence to indicate I might be autistic. It may cost money to get screened, and what's the point in getting a diagnosis even if I am autistic?
Your insurance might double in price, and some people/companies/countries might do profiling. Meaning that you will be limited if you ever want to relocate in the future.
If you love your life too much you could give it a shot.
🤔
Blud, it's not even that tekky, u js choose a distro n DE press next a few times and you're done, your nan could install it.
You don't even need to touch the terminal for anything other than installing shit n updating, and u can even js use a GUI if ur that braindead u can't type in a few words into a black box.
All the Linux bashing, and calling users neeks online is js regurgitated US gov propaganda.
Windows is becoming less usable by the hour, and Apple products are becoming more expensive and less repairable so we're seeing a higher influx of users than ever, not even mentioning the fact they're both spyware controlled by a fascist orange man.
The only tricky bit is porting over a drive. Fresh installs are easy.
Is that not fairly normal though? I must've been around that age when someone at school handed me a mandrake disk and kicked off my first linux experience.
I'd be kinda ok with someone jokingly saying that about themselves when they're actually autistic. But just randomly calling a stranger autistic in association with a specific interest is so regressive and insulting.
It's the weirdest combination of ableism and aspie supremacy all in one gross package.
I learned because I was torrenting and broke the family windows computer. It was either fix it or get grounded.
I suddenly vividly remember putting my mom’s Chromebook into developer mode and installing crouton on it so I could play Minecraft.
I switched to Linux after my experience with Windows Millennium Edition. Many people have since referred to me as some sort of programming genius and hacker.....I don't know crap about any of that. I've simply followed instructions and referred to the help communities, whenever I've had trouble. Using the mainstream distributions (I'm guessing) has kept me from having much trouble.
I think my kids may benefit, as my wife only uses Mac, I have 2 Ubuntus and a Mint, and the kids use Chromebooks at school. We have 2 iPad and a Galaxy tab in the house. 1 kid has an Android phone and the other an iPhone. My wife and I both have flagship Android phones.
Sometimes it's fun to watch them debate over which systems they prefer, depending on the school projects they work on.
Should've written "Mac PCs" just to mess with people.
I take it someone has already pointed out that excluded was the word wanted?
But... I started on a BBC Micro.
Maybe I'm not up to date on my porn slang but "BBC micro" sounds like an inherent contradiction.
We didn't own a BBC Micro, my school did.
My modern luxury at home was one of these:
Started on Mac. Still use one as my (not so-) daily driver. In the ~30 years in between, I've (professionally) been a PC field service technician, mainframe operator, datacenter tech, enterprise monitoring administrator, and a whole slew of other tech hats. In my personal time, I learned OS 7-8 inside and out (ResEdit ftw), built PCs out of spare parts (throwing Linux on some just to do it), turned an old tower into an external SCSI enclosure, built VM stacks for fun (DOS 6.2, Win 3.1, Win95 all on the same Mac box decades ago, just because I could), half-wired my parents' house for ethernet, built them a Hackintosh from parts, stuck a Linux VM on an old laptop to host Citrix so I could remote into work and have that one extra layer between personal and business, and gotten completely disillusioned with tech as a hobby and as the framework for modern society.
I followed you right off that cliff.
30ish more years of this. 🫠
Cheer up! We may not live that long.
Some people are just naturally computer savvy. My class and I were taught on how to use command prompt, but only few of us could get it. We just wanted to play Command and Conquer and DOTA, and leave the tweaking to the nerds.
Nah, I really don't think anyone is naturally computer savvy. Computers are literally the furthest thing from nature in existence. Some children are given the freedom and/or encouragement to explore computers, and some aren't. Giving a child an iPhone or an iPad as their first computer is the opposite of this, btw.
Edit: For the record, nobody I know who uses a terminal on a daily basis used it in class for the first time.
I just want to point out that I was somewhat tech literate in the 2000s. and The Mac OS still scared me.
Can confirm. Started on a Mac. Was using terminal, hex editor, resource forks, and squirrel basic to modify my Catz installation before I was 10. Windows peers seemed to think computers were made of rainbows and unicorns
Weird. I was thinking the post was saying Mac kids were less digitally literate because of the whole "it just works" culture. When I ran a help desk, the Mac users were definitely less adept. The pattern seems to continue with iPhone and Android users I encounter today.
Well, now I really want to see the results of such a study. My hypothesis is that it actually has more to do with the activities each computer is used for rather than the actual OS. As in, gamers (Windows) are more likely to be tech literate than authors (Mac), or graphic artists (Mac) are more likely to be tech literate than office workers (Windows).
Yeah, that is a pattern I've seen. I grew up having to troubleshoot stuff offline just to get a modem on PC to work on dialup to get to a BBS or CompuServe or editing mods for computer games, whereas my Mac friends were mostly playing with artistic programs on Mac. I also used artistic software on PC but that too required more skill. I don't recall seeing them deal with a command line interface whereas most of my earliest games ran in DOS.
Anecdata: everyone on the film set in 2009 except for the studio accountant used a Mac, and the accountant was a Thinkpad Guy.
What are you confirming? They didn't state their hypothesis.
Yeah I guess not. It seemed obvious to me, but I guess for other people it seemed obvious in the opposite direction.
Was taught using Apple2 then Macs in Jr High.
I built my own PC in high school (late 90s), upgraded it through college, then switched back to Mac’s when they went Intel.
I can’t muddle through Ruby, Python, Perl, Php C/C++, Objective-C and Swift. But wrote Actionscript, JS, and HTML/CSS for a living for 15 years.
How you start doesn’t matter and Mac’s are still better than Chromebooks. They have Unix shells FFS.
Since macos X. Prior did not...
Yeah. But that’s since 2001. So 24 years of Unix. Pretty sure that covers most recent grads or new hires ;)
I started on BASIC Apple IIe (had the full numpad for playing math munchers faster!)
Then we had a system 6 Performa that later got upgraded to System 7 then even 8 before I was able to save for a PC (Pentium 3 333mhz) during my last year of high school.
I grew up on Mac and only switched to Windows when I was 30. lol
I still wonder what Linux is like… It’s probably cool.
My first experience with Linux was at 10 years old or so. I had a netbook that I'd installed Ubuntu on.
Flash forward nearly 14 years and I use Arch as pretty much a daily driver these days.
I played education games on a Apple II in 1998; I was in the first grade.
Is Apple IIe a Macintosh?
yep, exact same thing. Apple is the name of the company, Macintosh is the brand of computer
Is it the same exact thing if it came out years before the original Macintosh?
It was rhetorical, and it's not the same thing as Macintosh. Strictly commandline, like DOS.
I started on Mac and installed Linux on a PS3 just to see if I could, where does that put me on the spectrum
You are the
brute squadspectrum.where my amiga weirdos at?
Loved my Amega so much. Spent hours drawing in Brilliance.
When I was a child I was trying to type QBASIC code from a magazine called DOS into my (inherited) Atari 1024ST with Omikron Basic and tried to figure out why that didn't work so well.
The study is about kids, not ancient beings.
I only knew one person with an oric-1 is that you, Neil?
Omg, this is the best early-morning laugh that I've had in a long time. Mac-nerd, here. From childhood. Also a Linux nerd for servers. This is so great that I immediately sent it to friends in tech. I'm still laughing like a nut.
The Picard Maneuver, inciting violence once again, I see. tips fedora
10 Print "BBC micro crew" 20 Print " I'm only dyslexic not autistic" 30 GOTO 10
The thing with Macs is you don't have to spend 80% of your time troubleshooting them. I love my Mac and OS X. I boot it up, log in, and don't have to think about it. The UI is very intuitive and easy to use as well.
I started on Commodore (Vic20 that I don't remember much, C64, and A500) mostly with a tiny bit of Atari and then was on Windows at home for decades (I tried installing Linux (Mandrake and Redhat) back when it fit on a floppy, but without a lot of success). I guess I'm too old and not neurotypical enough?
What about TRS-DOS?
My first usage of tech was my parents Apple 2E. So I don't know what that means... It wasn't Windows or Mac (the 2E is pre Macintosh).
"When I was a kid the computer didn't need some filthy OS!!"
ZX81 - C64 - Amiga (that wasn't an OS, it was just for launching stuff! /s ) gang
A home-built (from a set) one-board computer counts as what?
Is Dragon 32 a Mac or Windows computer?
Well that feels targeted.
First machine was an Apple IIe, second was MS-DOS, I want to say version 6.2.
Fun. I didn't grow up issuing a Mac, not did I grow up using Windows.... Nor Linux.
When I started on computers, we used DOS.
I'm old.
I'm not old enough to remember punch cards, I was solidly in the x86 generation, but still.
For the record, I do IT support now. I'm the one that helps you with your printer.
Mac not being able to play any games forced me to mess around with other operating systems on it
VIC-20
🤣🤣🤣
Can we stop throwing around "autistic" for anything? Have people actually ever met autistic kids? It has nothing to do about having uncommon interest, it imply much more things than that.
Did she intentionally use the word disclude to make linux autists mad?
The hard way is sometimes the most free way and the free way is usually the easy way. No sense stopping the forces of nature.
This is all types of wrong.
my favorite pornotrope is how people still swear by the belief that apple computers suffer no "malware", because why are androids apparently so promiscuous like any black person wants to spoof torvalds' github username
do androids sleep with promiscuous scapegoats?
No need for a study. Everyone knows apple is for fucktards.
You realize that not every user of a computer is a developer, right?
back in the 80's, whole rooms of Apple Computers sat empty, all day, everyday. At all the different schools i went to as a child.
I assume it's because none of the teachers wanted to learn them, it was real fucking shitty growing up surrounded by so many stupid fucks.
but now, soon, AI will be x1000000000⁷ better teachers. So at least the children will have an actual chance in this world, and so many of them won't choose liberal arts as their course of studies. -all that time they were just disciplining the children