With participants who likely flew themselves their bikes in from all around the world for a pointless competition. I wouldn't compare an international bike race to a person who rides their bike to work to help the environment.
Sporting events are the best way to reach hundreds of millions of people to deliver the message. Athlete flights are a tiny price to pay for it. And protesters literally fucked it up. Because they are dumbfuck attention whores and nothing else.
On Twitter the group claims that Ineos is fielding a team, now British Cycling is allegedly sponsored by Shell and yet visiting any of the official web sites does not list any of those sponsors. Must be very shy sponsors.
Cycling is environmentally friendly, but let's not equate world championship to cycling as transport. The event itself must have a lot carbon footprint. Still, weird choice of event to protest, but I can see them doing what they can to get the publicity they need.
And if they protested people commuting into a city, a huge source of global emissions, they'd be criticized for that too. People always manage to label protests as the wrong time/place. What they really mean is "protest is fine as long as no one, especially me, is asked to actually pay attention to it."
And if they protested people commuting into a city, a huge source of global emissions, they’d be criticized for that too.
May, just maybe, those aren't the only two choices. Maybe they could also protest in front of offices of politicians and actually reach the people who can change anything.
Greenpeace recently protested on top of British PM Rishi Sunak's private mansion while he was away. And they still got swamped with "YoU cAnT pRoTeSt LiKe tHaT" and people coming up with the most contrived reasons to say they are hypocritical.
It literally does not matter how these people protests, people will always say they are doing it the wrong way, because chuds dont actually mean it when they say that. They simply dont want them to protest at all, so they can pretend its not happening.
And maybe, just maybe, the protesters should have a goal of not only getting their message out but winning people over to their side. Maybe a goal of gaining support.
I don’t think this strategy of “annoy as many people as you can” will succeed in gaining any positive attention
I don’t think this strategy of “annoy as many people as you can” will succeed in gaining any positive attention
It's literally the only strategy that has ever worked before, other than outright violence.
After all, who gives a shit about "positive attention" for its own sake? What matters is actually effecting change, and that does not require people to like you.
The Civil Rights Act was passed in large part because of it. Is your argument that the Civil Rights Act changed nothing? Because that's silly. Or were you just not thinking, and trying to score internet points? Because that's also silly. You're being silly.
100%. The moment you point out that this isn’t the way to go you’re instantly seen as the bad one, that you don’t want to be inconvenienced. It’s so dumb.
I have this big thing I love to go into where I list dozens of better ways of getting media attention and starting dialog, one of the ideas is a big group of well organised people going to clean train stations and educate people on why trains are more climate friendly than cars and why that's important...
Talked up a lot of people involved in and supporting direct action and they all say one of two things 'i don't have time for this' or 'yeah sounds great but I'm going to stick with things that haven't been working for decades thanks'
I really have come to belive that for most people in these things the environment is just an excuse for attention seeking, or the support of these groups acts as a way of telling themselves 'we try so hard but nothing changes' because they don't actually want change, they just want a way of separating themselves from the guilt of consumerism.
It's like the chorus of people saying that it's corporations that use all the plastic, like the list of top ten plastic uses isn't just a list of companies that make products everyone uses - coke is in the list for example, they don't have a massive pile of plastic bottles to swim in like Scrooge McDuck nor do they have some magic power that forces people to buy their drinks. Working together we could change the world, but no one wants to change they just want a moment of self importance and an excuse for being part of it.
You know what that actually sounds like a very cool idea. I am sure I would get in trouble here in Germany for doing that, because how dare I put cleaning products on something I don't own, but it's a very cool idea nonetheless
Less trouble than blocking a road, and if they did that would be a long running news story 'the sixteen people arrested for cleaning a train station...' it's an attention grabber.
The idea makes a lot of sense in the principal of satyagraha, like Gandhi's salt march - creating a scene to force them to respond and show their true colours. What politican is going to speak against a movement like that? Especially if the cleaning protests have popular support because they've been done respectfully and with great care. It gives the politicans that support green measures a far better position to express their opinions 'people care about the planet so much they're willing to risk jail just to clean a train station and try to get people away from cars, it's our duty as legislators...' it's already a powerful speech.
I daydream for hours about different ways it could work, the most important thing is that commuters aren't disadvantaged or annoyed by it - I'd have small cleaning teams with a member tasked with making sure the team is out the way and I'd make sure they all know the station so they can direct people, help with their bags, etc. The other important thing would be that there are people able to engage in friendly conversation about important issues, why public transport is so important and what other things are important.. directing them to prepared resources and climate news, even better if they can make it fun for the people using the trains - something to talk about and almost crow over with their car driving colleagues 'the journey in was great, station looks amazing and while we waited they were doing a funny puppet show explaining the situation with shell poisoning the Niger Delta... How was traffic?'
I really do think it would be a far better way of spreading the message than throwing paint at much loved artworks or ruining people's cycle races. Those are so easy to ignore and make conversation hard but something like this or other acts of radical and revolutionary altruism could really get people thinking.
This is mildly infuriating but ruining the climate is very infuriating. So I understand the protesting and I hope we're gonna see a good second half of the race.
When you’ve done everything that’s reasonable, and no one in power listens, so have to become unreasonable. And people say, why can’t you just be reasonable?! 😕
That's indeed a much better way to actually change anything than to glue yourself onto a bicycle track and make up stories about turning away trans viewers.
Yeah no shit sherlock, and it would be better still to not even get in power, but instead just wave your arms and magic away all the excess co2 in the atmosphere.
"Rebecca, 28, “as a trans woman I’ve been told I’m not welcome on the cycling track by UCI, at the same time they allow a petrochemical company to field a team showing they have no real care for people. I take to the track to point out this hypocrisy and stand for a better future”"
Can't recycle them either. You could potentially downcycle carbon fibers but I'm pretty sure in most places they'll just end up in the incinerator, or somewhere in nature.
Wow. You completely missed the point of my comment. Congrats for this achievement. I'm speaking out in favor of steel and aluminium frames and you come up with fucking gasoline. Wow. Just wow.
I don't know about this Cycling competition, but the Tour de france thing has more helper cars, truck, cameraman motorcycle. Entire mobile village with caravan, trucks etc. Thats a lot of ecological impact even if indeed Cycling is one of the greenest transportation method.
Yeah a big competitive bike race with corporate sponsors and television cameras has little to do with cycling as a green method of transportation. It’s a bigass corporate gangbang and a fair target for disruption. Only the most lazy, dense observer would look at the Tour de France and think it was there to promote environmentalism.
I don't know the ideologies of the protestors, but I do agree with protesting against "big cycling". Cycling around on a trusty steel bike which you can repair yourself is environmentally friendly. Buying a new carbon fiber bike every few years because it is 2% more aero than the last is not. Instead of standardized parts, the cycling industry wants you to buy cheap ones that break fast, and can only be replaced with their specific parts. They sell this to you by including some upgrades in chains, cassettes etc. The cycling industry is the same as any other industry, it exists to make profits. Truly sustainable things do not come from making profits.
I've commuted to work by bicycle maybe 2 decades out of my career of almost 3 decades, NEVER with any bicyle worth more than 200 EUR (during my time in The Netherlands I always got second hand bicycles ... well, more likely 4th or 5h hand) and you clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
You're talking about, maybe, the consumer high-end "recreative" cycling, the kind that's sold to fad-following consumers who will at most pull out the bicycle on a weekend day, put on a "Tour de France" disguise (complete with "sponsor" sticks) and go cycle to be seen cycling.
In countries were people actually cycle for utility purposes those are a tiny fraction of people and the "cycling industry" is something else altogether than what you describe. Normal people use normal bicycles which are not too expensive, especially because you really don't want to park a 1000+ EUR on the street, not if you want to come back and still find all of it there.
Further, even at the high-end, the actual pros know how to fix their own bicycles and know the value of standardized components: it's really only the "two-wheel fashionistas" that would go for overpriced bicycles with non-standard elements.
Going after cycling because of a few idiots (and there are idiots in every human endeavour) and calling it pro-Ecology is the pinnacle of stupidity and doing the work of the enemy.
I am indeed talking about consumer high-end cycling, and I see it poisoning peoples minds in my city with their marketing that says to be eco-friendly and cycle to work you have to buy a brand new bike for £1000. I am arguing about the case in my city and the direction I don't want to see cycling in general take. I agree with you that in many places, cycling is much better, the Netherlands is a great example. I am not going after cycling as a whole, just the rich directors of Shimano, SRAM, Trek, Specialized, etc. that have greenwashed expensive high-end cycling and make people believe that they need the latest stuff. I am not saying that the industry is already in a bad place, just that it could head that way.
So what's the problem if the high-end consumer types are being fleeced by a subset of the industry?! There being a segment of the industry fleecing them is sorta the standard for all people who take a fashionista approach to anything, not just cycling: the crowd doing stuff to be seen doing stuff are always feeding from and feeding back a whole segment selling overpriced "for show" stuff. I mean, think Fashion (the clothing and shoes one): there's High Fashion for people with more money than sense and then there's a far far larger segment of the industry for everybody else.
During my time cycling in London I kept on doing it in a relaxed way like in The Netherlands (even though the cycling facilities in London were laughable compared to those in even the smallest of dutch towns) and yeah, there were plenty of what I called "Les tour de France" (fancy bicyle, kitted like they're in The Tour complete with fake sponsor sticks) commuting right along with me but that didn't seem to make any difference for the regular cycling community or their access to decently priced equipment.
Sure, whilst on one hand seeing people out there commuting by bicycle over-dressed (if you will) might make many think they need all that kit to do it, on the other seeing lots of people cycling on the road also gives confidence to others that "it's not that dangerous after all" and inspires them to try it, plus also trains the other road users to properly account for bicycles sharing the road with them. Certainly this is what I saw during my years commuting to work by bicycle in London when, in 6 or 7 years, it went from quite niche to a lot more common.
As far as I can tell either there is really no difference for the wider cycling community that such people exists or they might even be subsidizing the rest by overpaying for untested new equipment which sometimes ends up getting adapted for the broader community (and there standards do matter and a parts maker is not really going to be able to sell parts that require bulk cycle manufacturers to make custom solutions just for those parts) plus they're helping to get everybody else used to there being bicycles on the road.
I'm not arguing against a strawman, I'm arguing against an extreme case. In the city where I live, people buying loads of fancy new expensive bikes to seem "eco-friendly" is large. The number of high-end bike shops is large. Repair costs are extreme; £60 for a medium job. This is of course, a predominantly white, affluent city. I regularly see new gravel and commuter bikes (the latest trend) manufactured by the likes of Specialized, Trek, Canyon. These cost in the region of £1000 +- 200. I agree that there is not mass migration away from standard parts yet, but I am worried that that is the direction the cycling industry wants to take. There is already an explosion of different cassette standards, meaning you need unique tools to change many of the new cassettes. Disk brakes add complexity and expense, and your average commuter bike arguably does not need disk brakes, they are just a shiny addition to make it more marketable. My argument is against the increase of these expensive bikes, fancy parts and brands that produce them, as it just pushes people away from cycling and the ecological and health benefits it can bring.
I can see this argument, but I just hate the way the industry is heading, to extract as much money as possible by selling upgrades, new frames, etc etc. The price of a new bike has also risen 2-3x since before COVID and won't go down. Frame materials are becoming more resource intensive, parts are becoming less replaceable and more proprietary.
Yes, I have cycled a fair amount and raced too. Now I have downscaled my cycling to just getting around. Would you care to elaborate? If I was not clear I would like to explain myself. I knew many people who were always looking for the next upgrade to get a little performance boost, and willing to pay a great deal of money for it.
What's to elaborate? Modern bikes are miles better than anything made 20 years ago and components last forever, especially ebike certified components. And you can still fix everything yourself for pennies. Including the most complex pneumatic suspension.
I would argue the difference between modern bikes and old bikes for short to medium commutes (<1 hr) is immaterial. I have commuted on a carbon racing bike, an aluminum gravel bike (~£500) and a ~40 year old steel road bike I got for £20. Of course the carbon bike is very light and fast, but it has a massively greater ecological and financial cost. The aluminium gravel bike is pretty nice to ride, but not significantly different to the steel bike, which I actually find more comfortable on the road. The rotors on the gravel bike will soon need to be replaced, and that will probably be £100. I would agree with you that some modern components are better, notably corrosion resistant chains and puncture-resistant tyres. I would disagree on repair costs, in my experience, a repair at a shop in my city will cost at least £30 for something very simple like a new chain (which I can fit myself for less), and a while ago I had to pay £60 to replace a Di2 cable that got severed. (It went through the BB and I don't have the tools to take out and refit a BB).
Puncture resistant tyres plus tubeless setup is already saving you and the planet a lot of resources.
As for repair shop prices, well I fix everything myself. And that's the whole point - unlike with all other tech, you can still fix your bike yourself and you can infinitely upgrade it if required.
Why do you think 13 gear cassettes are a thing? The chain has to be thinner and everything is much more precise. Add to that mechanical load and it is much worse for every casual rider in reliability than the older 2x9, 3x9 systems.
But you can still buy all the older systems.
It's not like they stopped producing or supporting older standards.
Both my local shop and the webshop I use have all cassettes from 7-12 gears. Neither currently has 13 gear cassetes, though.
First of all 2x and 3x systems are NOT reliable at all and must die. Second 1x10 systems are cheap AF and will last you a very long time. Especially modern ones made to sustain ebikes. They will outlast any 2x and 3x shit and work much much better in all and every scenario.
Yeah, there's a big difference between pro cycling and biking to get around. The pro peloton isn't remotely sustainable—lots of international travel, transfers of team cars, team buses, helicopters, signal relay planes, etc. I suppose no pro sport is green. But biking for transport is one of the most efficient and sustainable.
SailGP claims to be trying, although I have... questions... about how they get both their boats and personnel from event location to event location, as well as the use of combustion-powered support boats during races. (Frankly, I won't really believe they're green until they've built a sailing cargo ship to schlep those racing catamarans around.)
Of course. All in saying is that it makes us talk about how cycling is a good alternative to motor transport. Doing the pro peloton to work isn't an option.
Sportswashing is a term used to describe the practice of individuals, groups, corporations, or governments using sports to improve reputations tarnished by wrongdoing. A form of propaganda, sportswashing can be accomplished through hosting sporting events, purchasing, or sponsoring sporting teams, or participating in a sport.
I've commuted regularly by bicycle for almost 2 decades in 3 other countries, but were I am now - Portugal - I won't because drivers are stupidly dangerous (some of the worst in Europe judging by accident statistics), though unlike almost all of my countrymen here I refuse to buy a car and walk, use public transportation or at worst rent one when needed.
The infrastructure isn't even worse than in Britain (were I did regularly cycle to and from work): it's just that when there are no segregated cycling lanes the quality of everybody else with you on the road makes a huge difference when you're the narrow crosssection (so harder to spot for drivers who just quickly peek on the mirrors and easy to fit on their blindspot) squishy, i'll protected and low-acceleration road user.
It really depends on the energy generation mix on the country were they're racing.
Electricity generation is however emitting less and less (as renewables become an ever larger fraction of it) which makes electric cars directly have less emissions all the while requiring no vehicle changes whatsoever, something not all possible with non-electric means of motorised transportation since the "generate the energy" directly in the vehicle so you need to upgrade the vehicle to improve the energy generation.
So yeah, that stuff is promoting emission free propulsion (already so today in some countries, certainly tomorrow in all), something which cannot be said of the other options.
It's pretty stupid to go after the "not yet perfectly ecological" alternative when there are a ton of "outright anti-Ecological and will never be any better" ones to go after.
Not only is it ridiculous to protest the promotion of emission-free propulsion, it's also accepting that their own people could be killed and bystanders traumatized for life.
My guess is that those "protesters" are paid and organized by some oil industry people (maybe without the activists glued to the floor knowing about this), just to give real climate activists a bad image. I've talked to a real climate activist recently, and she was furious about those "gullible idiots".
Many conspiracies are true. Probably not the ones about aliens or lizard people, but certainly the ones about oil companies (and oil countries) lying and spreading propaganda.
There are plenty of examples of dumb environmental protests too, though. I’m not saying it’s impossible for these to be false flag impostors but to go all the way to the extreme of calling people gullible idiots for not seeing that they are hired impostors… that’s just extreme. It smacks of many conservative fantasies: gun violence victims are just hired actors, blah blah blah. Thinking that people who ruin your narrative are all hired fakes is a sign of delusion.
No, saying that dumbass environmental protestors who are against bicycles must be hired by oil companies to give environmentalism a bad name. That’s a straight up theory that there is a conspiracy by oil companies to hire actors and ruin environmentalism.
Yes it is a theory about a conspiracy. However, it's not a "conspiracy theory".
A "conspiracy theory" is, by definition, lunatic - e.g. chemtrails, fake moon landing, vaccine microchips
A plausible theory about a conspiracy is not a "conspiracy theory" - e.g. Epstein didn't kill himself, environmentalists protesting a cycling event are a false flag op. These may be wrong; they may be ardently believed without sufficient evidence; but they are reasonable explanations for the given facts.
I consider suspect any theory that says “the people who disagree with my narrative must be hired actors planted to make me look bad.”
I realize false flag operations have occurred but it is just too easy to go around thinking that inconvenient people must be actors. Let alone to call anyone who DOESNT believe this a gullible idiot.
“Never ascribe to malfeasance what can be ascribed to stupidity” seems to apply here. Have you ever been on a college campus? There are plenty of really dumb protestors in this world. Far more than there are false flag actors.
Cycling races are very polluting. Not because of the bikes but because of everything besides the bikes (cars, motocycles, cameras, plastic goodies, ...)
I want it to be brought to people’s attention, I want countries to take action. All I hear around me is that people who do this are seen as loonies, as idiots who don’t have anything better to do, which paints a bad picture for the cause they’re trying to bring attention to.
Stop alienating people. You’re most definitely not helping the cause either.
I also never said I think it is crazy. I find the way they’re going about it strange, sure, but if I have to choose between nothing happening or this then I’ll choose for this.
I indeed did not think that that is alienating. It might be because English is not my native tongue but thought the word silly didn't have any negative connotations. If that is the case then my apologies for that. Do you have any suggestions which word I should've used? I could've gone for 'strange' or 'weird', but those are negative to me in this context.
I do wonder why you're coming up against me with such a negative attitude. The way you're writing your comments are full of blame already, even though you don't know my stance. Just because I think the way protests like these go about it isn't the best doesn't mean I am the devil and I support oil companies and whatnot, that's such a leap to make.
Especially your comment "Oil companies love that you think any noticeable protest is crazy." is funny to me, because from my perspective YOUR comments are what oil companies love, you make me not want to associate with this subject at all.
Yeah don't they know about the free speech circle that exists on the other side of town underneath the freeway overpass next to the river? That's where protests belong!
It's almost like the media is trying to make people hate them so oil companies can get their way.
Don't support these companies.
What's the "acceptable" form of protest in your opinion? Literally anything they do gets an article about how wrong it is, because they are trying to upset those with power.
Yep. Years back the Occupy Wallstreet protests were really gaining traction until corporate media decided to go to the camps and find the most insane examples of people to interview to represent the protest as a whole. The whole thing crumbled shortly after and Wall Street is still ruining running our lives to this day.
An acceptable form of protests not only gets the message across but wins people over to your side. Meanwhile you seem to be claiming that any publicity is good publicity, as if anyone is unaware of your message, and don’t care that you’re alienating the people who could be helping you
People in power want people to be apathetic and uneducated. Any protest that reminds people how fucked we are, and that there is this massive looming problem that the people in power are doing nothing about upsets the people with power.
The people in power want the general population to be apathetic and forget how fucked we are. So any protest that reminds them of the problem hurts the agenda of the people in power.
Yep, OP’s agenda is succeeding: there was no message getting across, no support gained, and I’m purposely avoiding finding out what their organization is so I don’t have to avoid donating/helping
This is a common occurrence in recent years by leftist groups. They have no bloody clue how to get their message out and connect with people that they make absolutely boneheaded moves. Moves that typically make these people look worse than if they did nothing.
There were environmental protesters in the US a few months back who stopped an entire highway. So now you have dozens or even hundreds of cars just idling there which is the worst thing to do for emissions. There have been similar protests before, but what really struck me with one of the protests was that there was some guy who was driving to meet his parole officer. If he was late to the meeting for any reason, he'd get thrown back in jail. The guy was pleading with these people to move to the side and let him go and they wouldn't budge. What a bunch of absolutely douchebags. These moves do not endear your audience to your cause, for fucks sakes.
Then there are groups like PETA. People of all races and cultures love animals, and yet these clowns find a way time and time again to turn people away from a cause that should otherwise be a homerun. Who wants to see animals being abuse? No one, and yet with the tactics these guys pull, they turn off more people than turn onto their organization because they always focus on the wrong things.
There were environmental protesters in the US a few months back who stopped an entire highway. So now you have dozens or even hundreds of cars just idling there which is the worst thing to do for emissions.
Fucking Koala brains. If you cant even be bothered to TRY and understand the point of the protests, then at least keep your mouth shut rather than polluting the world with your ignorance.
British Cycling is sponsored by oil company Shell according to the article.
Do you mind? I'm trying to be righteously infuriated over here.
It's amazing how "righteous fury" people seem to get over folks protesting sporting events because the fucking planet is on fire.
"Oh but couldn't they be more calm and quiet about it, I want to watch the race!"
With participants who likely flew themselves their bikes in from all around the world for a pointless competition. I wouldn't compare an international bike race to a person who rides their bike to work to help the environment.
Sporting events are the best way to reach hundreds of millions of people to deliver the message. Athlete flights are a tiny price to pay for it. And protesters literally fucked it up. Because they are dumbfuck attention whores and nothing else.
Tour de France sends the message performance is everything, and if you don't perform, destroy your body with drugs. It is inherently toxic.
I'm sure they had many sponsors? Admittedly, I've done zero research...
Visit https://www.cyclingworldchamps.com/ and scroll to the bottom. Neither Shell nor Ineos are on the list of sponsors.
Seems the protestors didn't either.
"One of the riders in the lead group was Britain's Owain Doull. British Cycling is sponsored by oil company Shell."
https://www.reuters.com/sports/cycling/protesters-halt-mens-road-race-2023-08-06/
Visit https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/ and scroll to the bottom. Neither Shell nor Ineos are on the list of sponsors, only lotteries.
On Twitter the group claims that Ineos is fielding a team, now British Cycling is allegedly sponsored by Shell and yet visiting any of the official web sites does not list any of those sponsors. Must be very shy sponsors.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/partners Shell is the first one listed on this page.
Dunno what to tell you bud. Reuters, BBC etc all report it so either they're all lying or they see it where we don't.
This is what I see
Sauce: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/partners
Huh, so indeed one of those shy sponsors that don't appear on the main page in the footer.
So reading through that, the Shell sponsorship is about bike chain lubricants and electric charging. Yes, very evil things.
Is shell paying you to run defence? I don't get it. Shell=bad and you should google it if you don't know why
Shell is good and you're a lunatic.
Y'all remember that post the other day about leaving all the idiots behind on reddit... About that...
The protestors too. So? XD
Cycling is environmentally friendly, but let's not equate world championship to cycling as transport. The event itself must have a lot carbon footprint. Still, weird choice of event to protest, but I can see them doing what they can to get the publicity they need.
I think its because of this: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/1915960
I guess big oil has nothing against cycling, as long as its the sport and not the mode of transport...
Same is true for almost every form of entertainment but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the truly big polluters.
Sources of entertainment have - by definition - more viewers and attention than Exxon's office building.
I always find it odd when people claim that something is by definition. Whose definition?
Anyway, this event is promoting cycling and disrupting a cycling event does nothing to help further promoting any form of cycling.
And if they protested people commuting into a city, a huge source of global emissions, they'd be criticized for that too. People always manage to label protests as the wrong time/place. What they really mean is "protest is fine as long as no one, especially me, is asked to actually pay attention to it."
May, just maybe, those aren't the only two choices. Maybe they could also protest in front of offices of politicians and actually reach the people who can change anything.
Yes, why has no one tried that before, 😂
Greenpeace recently protested on top of British PM Rishi Sunak's private mansion while he was away. And they still got swamped with "YoU cAnT pRoTeSt LiKe tHaT" and people coming up with the most contrived reasons to say they are hypocritical.
It literally does not matter how these people protests, people will always say they are doing it the wrong way, because chuds dont actually mean it when they say that. They simply dont want them to protest at all, so they can pretend its not happening.
That's the problem.
???
And maybe, just maybe, the protesters should have a goal of not only getting their message out but winning people over to their side. Maybe a goal of gaining support.
I don’t think this strategy of “annoy as many people as you can” will succeed in gaining any positive attention
It's literally the only strategy that has ever worked before, other than outright violence.
After all, who gives a shit about "positive attention" for its own sake? What matters is actually effecting change, and that does not require people to like you.
When has this stragety ever worked?
Lunch counter sit ins in the 1960s are the first thing that came to mind.
Yeah..
Racism is almost non existent now, because of this /s
The Civil Rights Act was passed in large part because of it. Is your argument that the Civil Rights Act changed nothing? Because that's silly. Or were you just not thinking, and trying to score internet points? Because that's also silly. You're being silly.
It never worked, don't delude yourself.
Weird flex to brag about not knowing history
What if you want to make a movement lose support? Could you then do this as a tactic to hurt a cause?
100%. The moment you point out that this isn’t the way to go you’re instantly seen as the bad one, that you don’t want to be inconvenienced. It’s so dumb.
People have done that but the publicity isn't nearly as large as a globally televised event.
That’s a fair point yeah, I guess the publicity does help
Any publicity is good publicity, huh? Here’s a data point that says “nope”
I have this big thing I love to go into where I list dozens of better ways of getting media attention and starting dialog, one of the ideas is a big group of well organised people going to clean train stations and educate people on why trains are more climate friendly than cars and why that's important...
Talked up a lot of people involved in and supporting direct action and they all say one of two things 'i don't have time for this' or 'yeah sounds great but I'm going to stick with things that haven't been working for decades thanks'
I really have come to belive that for most people in these things the environment is just an excuse for attention seeking, or the support of these groups acts as a way of telling themselves 'we try so hard but nothing changes' because they don't actually want change, they just want a way of separating themselves from the guilt of consumerism.
It's like the chorus of people saying that it's corporations that use all the plastic, like the list of top ten plastic uses isn't just a list of companies that make products everyone uses - coke is in the list for example, they don't have a massive pile of plastic bottles to swim in like Scrooge McDuck nor do they have some magic power that forces people to buy their drinks. Working together we could change the world, but no one wants to change they just want a moment of self importance and an excuse for being part of it.
You know what that actually sounds like a very cool idea. I am sure I would get in trouble here in Germany for doing that, because how dare I put cleaning products on something I don't own, but it's a very cool idea nonetheless
Less trouble than blocking a road, and if they did that would be a long running news story 'the sixteen people arrested for cleaning a train station...' it's an attention grabber.
The idea makes a lot of sense in the principal of satyagraha, like Gandhi's salt march - creating a scene to force them to respond and show their true colours. What politican is going to speak against a movement like that? Especially if the cleaning protests have popular support because they've been done respectfully and with great care. It gives the politicans that support green measures a far better position to express their opinions 'people care about the planet so much they're willing to risk jail just to clean a train station and try to get people away from cars, it's our duty as legislators...' it's already a powerful speech.
I daydream for hours about different ways it could work, the most important thing is that commuters aren't disadvantaged or annoyed by it - I'd have small cleaning teams with a member tasked with making sure the team is out the way and I'd make sure they all know the station so they can direct people, help with their bags, etc. The other important thing would be that there are people able to engage in friendly conversation about important issues, why public transport is so important and what other things are important.. directing them to prepared resources and climate news, even better if they can make it fun for the people using the trains - something to talk about and almost crow over with their car driving colleagues 'the journey in was great, station looks amazing and while we waited they were doing a funny puppet show explaining the situation with shell poisoning the Niger Delta... How was traffic?'
I really do think it would be a far better way of spreading the message than throwing paint at much loved artworks or ruining people's cycle races. Those are so easy to ignore and make conversation hard but something like this or other acts of radical and revolutionary altruism could really get people thinking.
This is mildly infuriating but ruining the climate is very infuriating. So I understand the protesting and I hope we're gonna see a good second half of the race.
When you’ve done everything that’s reasonable, and no one in power listens, so have to become unreasonable. And people say, why can’t you just be reasonable?! 😕
Get elected and become a person in power then.
Because the corporations you are protesting are the ones who fund the campaigns necessary to get elected.
Make enemies with everyone and make sure nobody outside the fossil fuel industry will want to fund your campaign either.
Holy shit, why didnt we think of this before!!!!11!!
Hey! Everyone @[email protected] just solved climate change!!!!!!
Those glue fumes are bad for your brain.
That's indeed a much better way to actually change anything than to glue yourself onto a bicycle track and make up stories about turning away trans viewers.
Yeah no shit sherlock, and it would be better still to not even get in power, but instead just wave your arms and magic away all the excess co2 in the atmosphere.
Carbon capture is an actual thing, not magic and Shell is working on that, including two projects in Scotland: https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/carbon-capture-and-storage.html
BTW: The world's biggest CO2 emitter is China with a third of all emissions.
Okay, I refuse to believe anyone is actually this stupid, so I'm just going to disengage.
What's mildly infuriating is that you are complaining about these protesters without providing any details on the protest.
No worries dude! I got you. Google to the rescue
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/elite-mens-road-race-halted-by-protest-at-2023-uci-world-championships/
https://nitter.net/Thisis_Rigged/status/1688142514421661696#m
"Rebecca, 28, “as a trans woman I’ve been told I’m not welcome on the cycling track by UCI, at the same time they allow a petrochemical company to field a team showing they have no real care for people. I take to the track to point out this hypocrisy and stand for a better future”"
Shell produces, among other things, resins used so much in modern bicycles' carbon fiber
Can't recycle them either. You could potentially downcycle carbon fibers but I'm pretty sure in most places they'll just end up in the incinerator, or somewhere in nature.
Wow. You completely missed the point of my comment. Congrats for this achievement. I'm speaking out in favor of steel and aluminium frames and you come up with fucking gasoline. Wow. Just wow.
JFC lady pick a point to be outraged about and stick to it!
She did. She's just protesting alongside others who are protesting for different reasons.
How frustrating, it's far easier to dismiss them when they're a faceless homogeneous mass.
I kind of agree with you. Those points are so completely unrelated, it just makes the cause look stupid. Even if you agree with both causes.
No it's not!
"White moderate" pearl-clutching is much more than "mildly" infuriating.
I don't know about this Cycling competition, but the Tour de france thing has more helper cars, truck, cameraman motorcycle. Entire mobile village with caravan, trucks etc. Thats a lot of ecological impact even if indeed Cycling is one of the greenest transportation method.
Yeah a big competitive bike race with corporate sponsors and television cameras has little to do with cycling as a green method of transportation. It’s a bigass corporate gangbang and a fair target for disruption. Only the most lazy, dense observer would look at the Tour de France and think it was there to promote environmentalism.
I don't know the ideologies of the protestors, but I do agree with protesting against "big cycling". Cycling around on a trusty steel bike which you can repair yourself is environmentally friendly. Buying a new carbon fiber bike every few years because it is 2% more aero than the last is not. Instead of standardized parts, the cycling industry wants you to buy cheap ones that break fast, and can only be replaced with their specific parts. They sell this to you by including some upgrades in chains, cassettes etc. The cycling industry is the same as any other industry, it exists to make profits. Truly sustainable things do not come from making profits.
I've commuted to work by bicycle maybe 2 decades out of my career of almost 3 decades, NEVER with any bicyle worth more than 200 EUR (during my time in The Netherlands I always got second hand bicycles ... well, more likely 4th or 5h hand) and you clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
You're talking about, maybe, the consumer high-end "recreative" cycling, the kind that's sold to fad-following consumers who will at most pull out the bicycle on a weekend day, put on a "Tour de France" disguise (complete with "sponsor" sticks) and go cycle to be seen cycling.
In countries were people actually cycle for utility purposes those are a tiny fraction of people and the "cycling industry" is something else altogether than what you describe. Normal people use normal bicycles which are not too expensive, especially because you really don't want to park a 1000+ EUR on the street, not if you want to come back and still find all of it there.
Further, even at the high-end, the actual pros know how to fix their own bicycles and know the value of standardized components: it's really only the "two-wheel fashionistas" that would go for overpriced bicycles with non-standard elements.
Going after cycling because of a few idiots (and there are idiots in every human endeavour) and calling it pro-Ecology is the pinnacle of stupidity and doing the work of the enemy.
I am indeed talking about consumer high-end cycling, and I see it poisoning peoples minds in my city with their marketing that says to be eco-friendly and cycle to work you have to buy a brand new bike for £1000. I am arguing about the case in my city and the direction I don't want to see cycling in general take. I agree with you that in many places, cycling is much better, the Netherlands is a great example. I am not going after cycling as a whole, just the rich directors of Shimano, SRAM, Trek, Specialized, etc. that have greenwashed expensive high-end cycling and make people believe that they need the latest stuff. I am not saying that the industry is already in a bad place, just that it could head that way.
So what's the problem if the high-end consumer types are being fleeced by a subset of the industry?! There being a segment of the industry fleecing them is sorta the standard for all people who take a fashionista approach to anything, not just cycling: the crowd doing stuff to be seen doing stuff are always feeding from and feeding back a whole segment selling overpriced "for show" stuff. I mean, think Fashion (the clothing and shoes one): there's High Fashion for people with more money than sense and then there's a far far larger segment of the industry for everybody else.
During my time cycling in London I kept on doing it in a relaxed way like in The Netherlands (even though the cycling facilities in London were laughable compared to those in even the smallest of dutch towns) and yeah, there were plenty of what I called "Les tour de France" (fancy bicyle, kitted like they're in The Tour complete with fake sponsor sticks) commuting right along with me but that didn't seem to make any difference for the regular cycling community or their access to decently priced equipment.
Sure, whilst on one hand seeing people out there commuting by bicycle over-dressed (if you will) might make many think they need all that kit to do it, on the other seeing lots of people cycling on the road also gives confidence to others that "it's not that dangerous after all" and inspires them to try it, plus also trains the other road users to properly account for bicycles sharing the road with them. Certainly this is what I saw during my years commuting to work by bicycle in London when, in 6 or 7 years, it went from quite niche to a lot more common.
As far as I can tell either there is really no difference for the wider cycling community that such people exists or they might even be subsidizing the rest by overpaying for untested new equipment which sometimes ends up getting adapted for the broader community (and there standards do matter and a parts maker is not really going to be able to sell parts that require bulk cycle manufacturers to make custom solutions just for those parts) plus they're helping to get everybody else used to there being bicycles on the road.
You clearly didn't read what they wrote, and then went on a tirade about it.
Nothing you said really applies as a retort to the other user's comment.
I'm not arguing against a strawman, I'm arguing against an extreme case. In the city where I live, people buying loads of fancy new expensive bikes to seem "eco-friendly" is large. The number of high-end bike shops is large. Repair costs are extreme; £60 for a medium job. This is of course, a predominantly white, affluent city. I regularly see new gravel and commuter bikes (the latest trend) manufactured by the likes of Specialized, Trek, Canyon. These cost in the region of £1000 +- 200. I agree that there is not mass migration away from standard parts yet, but I am worried that that is the direction the cycling industry wants to take. There is already an explosion of different cassette standards, meaning you need unique tools to change many of the new cassettes. Disk brakes add complexity and expense, and your average commuter bike arguably does not need disk brakes, they are just a shiny addition to make it more marketable. My argument is against the increase of these expensive bikes, fancy parts and brands that produce them, as it just pushes people away from cycling and the ecological and health benefits it can bring.
Few "big bicycling" inspires a lot of "small bicycling"
I can see this argument, but I just hate the way the industry is heading, to extract as much money as possible by selling upgrades, new frames, etc etc. The price of a new bike has also risen 2-3x since before COVID and won't go down. Frame materials are becoming more resource intensive, parts are becoming less replaceable and more proprietary.
Have you ever cycled in your life? Because that's not how it works.
Yes, I have cycled a fair amount and raced too. Now I have downscaled my cycling to just getting around. Would you care to elaborate? If I was not clear I would like to explain myself. I knew many people who were always looking for the next upgrade to get a little performance boost, and willing to pay a great deal of money for it.
What's to elaborate? Modern bikes are miles better than anything made 20 years ago and components last forever, especially ebike certified components. And you can still fix everything yourself for pennies. Including the most complex pneumatic suspension.
I would argue the difference between modern bikes and old bikes for short to medium commutes (<1 hr) is immaterial. I have commuted on a carbon racing bike, an aluminum gravel bike (~£500) and a ~40 year old steel road bike I got for £20. Of course the carbon bike is very light and fast, but it has a massively greater ecological and financial cost. The aluminium gravel bike is pretty nice to ride, but not significantly different to the steel bike, which I actually find more comfortable on the road. The rotors on the gravel bike will soon need to be replaced, and that will probably be £100. I would agree with you that some modern components are better, notably corrosion resistant chains and puncture-resistant tyres. I would disagree on repair costs, in my experience, a repair at a shop in my city will cost at least £30 for something very simple like a new chain (which I can fit myself for less), and a while ago I had to pay £60 to replace a Di2 cable that got severed. (It went through the BB and I don't have the tools to take out and refit a BB).
Puncture resistant tyres plus tubeless setup is already saving you and the planet a lot of resources.
As for repair shop prices, well I fix everything myself. And that's the whole point - unlike with all other tech, you can still fix your bike yourself and you can infinitely upgrade it if required.
Why do you think 13 gear cassettes are a thing? The chain has to be thinner and everything is much more precise. Add to that mechanical load and it is much worse for every casual rider in reliability than the older 2x9, 3x9 systems.
But you can still buy all the older systems. It's not like they stopped producing or supporting older standards. Both my local shop and the webshop I use have all cassettes from 7-12 gears. Neither currently has 13 gear cassetes, though.
First of all 2x and 3x systems are NOT reliable at all and must die. Second 1x10 systems are cheap AF and will last you a very long time. Especially modern ones made to sustain ebikes. They will outlast any 2x and 3x shit and work much much better in all and every scenario.
And this makes us talk about the fact that cycling is one of the most environmentally friendly alternatives to fuel driven personal transportation.
Yeah, there's a big difference between pro cycling and biking to get around. The pro peloton isn't remotely sustainable—lots of international travel, transfers of team cars, team buses, helicopters, signal relay planes, etc. I suppose no pro sport is green. But biking for transport is one of the most efficient and sustainable.
Of course, but there's also a big difference between a cycling race and a car race.
Neither are vital transportation, but one is a helluva lot more polluting for entertainment than the other.
SailGP claims to be trying, although I have... questions... about how they get both their boats and personnel from event location to event location, as well as the use of combustion-powered support boats during races. (Frankly, I won't really believe they're green until they've built a sailing cargo ship to schlep those racing catamarans around.)
Of course. All in saying is that it makes us talk about how cycling is a good alternative to motor transport. Doing the pro peloton to work isn't an option.
Cycling might be.
Cycling the sport isn't. The sheer volume of support cars, media cars, motorbikes at every race is utter insanity.
That's before we get into the sponsorship from oil and chemical companies, and at least two sportwashing teams
For the folks too lazy to look it up:
Seems the protest was effective then
Try cycling where I live and you'll hate the idea of cycling in a week
That's not a problem with cycling. That is a problem with city planning.
Which isn't a excuse not to improve it.
Why?
They live on the international space station
Death roads most likely
I've commuted regularly by bicycle for almost 2 decades in 3 other countries, but were I am now - Portugal - I won't because drivers are stupidly dangerous (some of the worst in Europe judging by accident statistics), though unlike almost all of my countrymen here I refuse to buy a car and walk, use public transportation or at worst rent one when needed.
The infrastructure isn't even worse than in Britain (were I did regularly cycle to and from work): it's just that when there are no segregated cycling lanes the quality of everybody else with you on the road makes a huge difference when you're the narrow crosssection (so harder to spot for drivers who just quickly peek on the mirrors and easy to fit on their blindspot) squishy, i'll protected and low-acceleration road user.
If you actually would like to read about it: https://www.reuters.com/sports/cycling/protesters-halt-mens-road-race-2023-08-06/
So what is your plan instead?
Interrupting motorsports may give then more sympathy.
They tried that. Reddit’s unanimous opinion was that they should’ve been run over.
Like when they glued themselves on a race track of Formula E electric racing because promoting emission free propulsion is apparently bad as well.
Emission free, eh? How was the electricity generated?
It really depends on the energy generation mix on the country were they're racing.
Electricity generation is however emitting less and less (as renewables become an ever larger fraction of it) which makes electric cars directly have less emissions all the while requiring no vehicle changes whatsoever, something not all possible with non-electric means of motorised transportation since the "generate the energy" directly in the vehicle so you need to upgrade the vehicle to improve the energy generation.
So yeah, that stuff is promoting emission free propulsion (already so today in some countries, certainly tomorrow in all), something which cannot be said of the other options.
It's pretty stupid to go after the "not yet perfectly ecological" alternative when there are a ton of "outright anti-Ecological and will never be any better" ones to go after.
Haha, haven't heart about that. Sounds ridiculous!
Not only is it ridiculous to protest the promotion of emission-free propulsion, it's also accepting that their own people could be killed and bystanders traumatized for life.
But hey, those three or so people got their 30 seconds in the spotlight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgekxYhO26s
Cool. Now tell us all that Greta predicted the end of the world and yet we're all still here.
I don't care about that nuclear power apologist.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=fgekxYhO26s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
— Reuters
British Cycling is the Host partner of the championship, according to the official website of the championship (linked to at the UCI website, "Organizer website" section), and its partner is Shell UK (announcement).
Someone pointed it out in the comments before, but it's neatly summarized now 😝
My guess is that those "protesters" are paid and organized by some oil industry people (maybe without the activists glued to the floor knowing about this), just to give real climate activists a bad image. I've talked to a real climate activist recently, and she was furious about those "gullible idiots".
It’s a little funny how someone believing an actual literal conspiracy theory would call others gullible idiots.
Many conspiracies are true. Probably not the ones about aliens or lizard people, but certainly the ones about oil companies (and oil countries) lying and spreading propaganda.
There are plenty of examples of dumb environmental protests too, though. I’m not saying it’s impossible for these to be false flag impostors but to go all the way to the extreme of calling people gullible idiots for not seeing that they are hired impostors… that’s just extreme. It smacks of many conservative fantasies: gun violence victims are just hired actors, blah blah blah. Thinking that people who ruin your narrative are all hired fakes is a sign of delusion.
Umm.. What conspiracy, the climate change?
No, saying that dumbass environmental protestors who are against bicycles must be hired by oil companies to give environmentalism a bad name. That’s a straight up theory that there is a conspiracy by oil companies to hire actors and ruin environmentalism.
Yes it is a theory about a conspiracy. However, it's not a "conspiracy theory".
A "conspiracy theory" is, by definition, lunatic - e.g. chemtrails, fake moon landing, vaccine microchips
A plausible theory about a conspiracy is not a "conspiracy theory" - e.g. Epstein didn't kill himself, environmentalists protesting a cycling event are a false flag op. These may be wrong; they may be ardently believed without sufficient evidence; but they are reasonable explanations for the given facts.
I consider suspect any theory that says “the people who disagree with my narrative must be hired actors planted to make me look bad.”
I realize false flag operations have occurred but it is just too easy to go around thinking that inconvenient people must be actors. Let alone to call anyone who DOESNT believe this a gullible idiot.
“Never ascribe to malfeasance what can be ascribed to stupidity” seems to apply here. Have you ever been on a college campus? There are plenty of really dumb protestors in this world. Far more than there are false flag actors.
Because no conspiracies have ever existed.
Therefore all conspiracies are true. Your logic is impeccable.
That's not the point though is it, smartass?
Its not to protest the event, or cycling. Its a protest against climate destruction using a widely watched event. To bring attention to it.
Cycling races are very polluting. Not because of the bikes but because of everything besides the bikes (cars, motocycles, cameras, plastic goodies, ...)
I just assume these dumb protest ideas are actors paid by oil
Where did you get that it is environmental protestors?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/elite-mens-road-race-halted-by-protest-at-2023-uci-world-championships/
I stg posts like these are just part of some sort of psyop at this point.
Maybe bc cycling fans will listen
all this does is to make sure to alienate the cyclists who would actually listen.
Mother fucker we all about to die from climate change and you worried about how it might make people feel bad.
i see
The men’s road race wasn’t temporarily interrupted. When a race is interrupted, it’s done for good because you lose all the positions and momentum.
You're not watching the race are you...
Nope. But I don’t need to in order to know that races that get interrupted can’t be started again and still be valid.
Well it did even after a 45 minute break.
Hahaha fucking idiots
I find this so silly. I feel that all this does is make people mad instead of getting them aware and informed on what they’re protesting about.
So you're advocating for people being so selfish that the death of a livable environment is secondary to being fully comfortable today?
Yes that is exactly what I’m saying. Not.
I want it to be brought to people’s attention, I want countries to take action. All I hear around me is that people who do this are seen as loonies, as idiots who don’t have anything better to do, which paints a bad picture for the cause they’re trying to bring attention to.
Oil companies love that you think any noticeable protest is crazy.
Stop alienating people. You’re most definitely not helping the cause either.
I also never said I think it is crazy. I find the way they’re going about it strange, sure, but if I have to choose between nothing happening or this then I’ll choose for this.
"I think this is so silly" isn't alienating? Ok.
I indeed did not think that that is alienating. It might be because English is not my native tongue but thought the word silly didn't have any negative connotations. If that is the case then my apologies for that. Do you have any suggestions which word I should've used? I could've gone for 'strange' or 'weird', but those are negative to me in this context.
I do wonder why you're coming up against me with such a negative attitude. The way you're writing your comments are full of blame already, even though you don't know my stance. Just because I think the way protests like these go about it isn't the best doesn't mean I am the devil and I support oil companies and whatnot, that's such a leap to make.
Especially your comment "Oil companies love that you think any noticeable protest is crazy." is funny to me, because from my perspective YOUR comments are what oil companies love, you make me not want to associate with this subject at all.
Why... just why?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeling_Curve
Yeah why don't they know their place, where no one will notice them???
Yeah don't they know about the free speech circle that exists on the other side of town underneath the freeway overpass next to the river? That's where protests belong!
It's almost like the media is trying to make people hate them so oil companies can get their way.
Don't support these companies.
What's the "acceptable" form of protest in your opinion? Literally anything they do gets an article about how wrong it is, because they are trying to upset those with power.
Yep. Years back the Occupy Wallstreet protests were really gaining traction until corporate media decided to go to the camps and find the most insane examples of people to interview to represent the protest as a whole. The whole thing crumbled shortly after and Wall Street is still
ruiningrunning our lives to this day.An acceptable form of protests not only gets the message across but wins people over to your side. Meanwhile you seem to be claiming that any publicity is good publicity, as if anyone is unaware of your message, and don’t care that you’re alienating the people who could be helping you
How do you protest something without inconveniencing anyone in the process?
They downvoted you because they have no answer to your question.
People in power want people to be apathetic and uneducated. Any protest that reminds people how fucked we are, and that there is this massive looming problem that the people in power are doing nothing about upsets the people with power.
The people in power want the general population to be apathetic and forget how fucked we are. So any protest that reminds them of the problem hurts the agenda of the people in power.
Are you even reading the comments I'm posting?
No. That's what people like you do who don't even understand the context of the protest.
Edit: And OP, who's likely doing this intentionally to spread his agenda.
Yep, OP’s agenda is succeeding: there was no message getting across, no support gained, and I’m purposely avoiding finding out what their organization is so I don’t have to avoid donating/helping
Noted! I will go burn a few tires to teach them.
This is a common occurrence in recent years by leftist groups. They have no bloody clue how to get their message out and connect with people that they make absolutely boneheaded moves. Moves that typically make these people look worse than if they did nothing.
There were environmental protesters in the US a few months back who stopped an entire highway. So now you have dozens or even hundreds of cars just idling there which is the worst thing to do for emissions. There have been similar protests before, but what really struck me with one of the protests was that there was some guy who was driving to meet his parole officer. If he was late to the meeting for any reason, he'd get thrown back in jail. The guy was pleading with these people to move to the side and let him go and they wouldn't budge. What a bunch of absolutely douchebags. These moves do not endear your audience to your cause, for fucks sakes.
Then there are groups like PETA. People of all races and cultures love animals, and yet these clowns find a way time and time again to turn people away from a cause that should otherwise be a homerun. Who wants to see animals being abuse? No one, and yet with the tactics these guys pull, they turn off more people than turn onto their organization because they always focus on the wrong things.
Fucking Koala brains. If you cant even be bothered to TRY and understand the point of the protests, then at least keep your mouth shut rather than polluting the world with your ignorance.