Later studies found that pintos were not particularly more likely to explode than other cars of the same form factor from that era. Turns out, plenty of other manufacturers cut costs by placing the fuel tanks in the rear bumper. And either way there's plenty of other things you should be more concerned about in deathtraps from that era, such as the steering column impaling you if the front of your car collides with anything, or the roof caving in if your car is ever upside-down.
What did Ford in was the Pinto Memo. Evil corpo pro-tip: Doing clownishly evil napkin math on the relative costs of lawsuits vs a cheap fix is fine, just don't be so dumb as to write it down where a hungry journalist might find it.
Anyway are teslas better or worse than the pinto or comparable modern cars? Who fucking cares, if people actually cared about car safety they would all be lobbying to ban cars within cities and Tesla "F"SD would be illegal everywhere. Anyway it seems that the Swasticar branding is doing more damage to Tesla's reputation than any amount of ludicrous safety and manufacturing issues ever did.
Quick eyeball of Tesla figures shows about 5mil sold over all models. Ford Pinto sold about 3mil. So the percentages are pretty close with Tesla deaths nearly quadruple Pinto deaths. And the truck hasn't been out long so who know how many that will kill in accidents given its construction.
That was the 90's. In 2025, you infiltrate the federal government, fire anyone investigating you, close departments that are a nuisance, and subvert the judicial branch.
Yeah, but not for much longer. I've had my Model 3 for 7 years, well before Elon went full public Nazi, and when there were almost no similar alternatives for less than $80k.
Just Blbeing anti-Tesla just because it's the thing you do now is stupid. Facts are facts. Fascists aren't the only ones that like to ignore inconvenient facts.
Acting like the hundreds of thousands of existing Tesla owners are the same as people currently buying just makes you look like a dipshit.
Acting like the hundreds of thousands of existing Tesla owners are the same as people currently buying just makes you look like a dipshit.
You sound a bit defensive here.
I wasn't suggesting anything beyond the strong coping signal I saw with you defending the safety of a vehicle in the face of data.
You make it sound like I called you a musk fanboi so if we want to talk about things people do to make themselves look like dipshits, your post is a top contender.
That's exactly how your previous sentence came across, especially given the anti-Tesla sentiment. You can't honestly be trying to claim otherwise while being in the comment section of social media like Lemmy talking about Tesla.
If only that was true, but it isn’t. They’re about even, and even if they where behind on %, it should have been a pretty big case as we’re supposed to have learned and be more vigilant
we’re supposed to have learned and be more vigilant
There is a regular ICE car fire every 3 minutes in the US, even after the changes made in vehicle design. But no one likes to talk about that fact. It's normal and you don't get to feel superior on the internet for making a snarky reply making fun of a billionaire who doesn't know you exist or care about what you think.
Yes! Musk makes these cars. As the great engineer he is he hand built the original tesla using old tools he inherited from his father.
I get to feel as superior as i want. The rules set out for plebs like you dont work on me.
Yep, I can't use this statistic for anything if it can't compare to totals. I'm assuming that teslas, as a whole brand, outnumbers ford pinto, a single model, by at least 10x.
I hate to defend Tesla because I hate the owner and there are serious issues with things like having the emergency escape door latches hidden and difficult to access...
But there were 1.5 million Pintos affected by the safety recall across 5 model years. Tesla sold more than that many cars last year alone, and estimates are they've sold about 7 million vehicles total.
The fire fatality rate was higher for Pinto than Tesla.
It's hard to comprehend how things have simply inflated over the years. We're dealing with massive numbers now, compared to 1970-1980....
That being said, even with the much higher numbers, we should consider the fact that as the numbers have gone up, so has safety technology.
So the cars should be expected to be safer year over year. The percentage of failures should be less.
That being said, just because it's a smaller percentage doesn't necessarily mean that we shouldn't care about it happening.
In the end, I find your comment to be very useful in gaining a bit of perspective. While it might not fundamentally change my opinion, or anyone else's, it's good to understand the magnitude of these numbers, in comparison to the overall volume of vehicles out there.
Ah, yes, the thing we all haven't heard and seen constantly for years. /s
Tesla's exploding has been widely covered since the very first one happened, both as actual news and jokes/memes.
This image is dumb as fuck, simply because of that. And I'd say with certainty that a LOT more people are aware of Teslas exploding than how many even know there was a car named Fort Pinto.
I'm all for Tesla going down the drain, and more of them exploding (without casualties), but report on that instead of making up dumb shit (that no one hears about it).
For one thing, in the Pinto days we didn't have information firehoses shooting streams of content at us 24/7. People were putting up "Hang In There" cat posters with scotch tape. And "You don't have to be CRAZY to work here... but it helps!!!" Those were simpler times.
Because that's actually a lower number when you compare it to cars in general. Those 83 fatalities happened over a period of 10 years.
EVs catching fire left and right is actually, probably, a talking point manufactured by the oil industry. Be careful who you ally with when you hate Tesla.
Also, get the fuck out of Facebook or wherever you get these shit memes.
Also. WE HEAR ABOUT IT ALL THE FUCKING TIME. There is nothing anyone likes more than taking a shit on Tesla. Often it is deserved. I still wouldn't sell either of mine for basically any ICE car. Yeah they suck. I'm still in.
Then Elon and Tesla dismiss any valid complaints and criticisms as "far left gay communist propaganda" just 'cause he thinks everything's politically motivated, 'cause he thinks everyone should agree everything he does and those who don't are the enemy just like fascists and (also) actual communists.
You are right. There were 3 million pintos sold. So far there have been 6 million teslas sold. So it's much worse than we thought. 1970s tech joke of a car has a better fire rate Than a 2020s tech car. Thanks for bringing that up!
Utilitarianism is really only viable when the other option is EVERYBODY dies (give-or-take a percentage point or two); killing 10 to save 1000 only really works as an argument if the alternative is 1010 unavoidable deaths. 20 avoidable deaths and 80 avoidable deaths are still a fuck ton of avoidable deaths, especially when we HAVE the resources and the knowledge to prevent them but we just don't because of profit margins and shareholders
Calling it now: In the future, it’ll eventually come out that manufacturers knew EV batteries were not suitable for extreme temps (explode in extreme heat, won’t hold a good charge in extreme cold), and there’s been a massive industry push to keep these issues out of talking points.
Toyota will be vindicated in their push for hydrogen.
Right. Couldn’t be the monopolies protected in the fossil fuel & auto industries. Just a totally organic, politically backed opposition to cheap fueling with one of the most abundant resources on the planet.
It's not abundance that matters, it's availability. It takes a ton of energy to separate (usually from fossil fuels) and then compress (to seven fucking hundred atmospheres). By the time you're done it's barely more efficient than gas itself, just with no local emissions. And it's anything but cheap, it's similar price to gas.
I haven't charged my car at a "station" since my last road trip, almost a year ago. Plug it at home, ready next day. In summer, for free, and with green energy from solar panels.
If monopolies had so much power, BEVs and hybrids wouldn't exist. Or they would support Toyota and launch H2 cars themselves.
Hydrogen is just inferior to batteries for passanger cars. Could be a solution for long haul where batteries start to be too heavy.
Hydrogen is not created by electrolysis powered by fossil fuels. Most is created by SMR directly from methane.
But since you insist:
charging a battery is about 90% efficient. You put 10 kWh in, you get 9kWh in. Discharching is more than 90% efficient, let's say 80% source to motor. Pulling 10 kWh from the socket gives the motor 8kWh to work with.
electrysis of water has a typical efficiency of 70%, in lab conditions 80%. Then you need to compress it, creating heat and losing another 10%. Finally, fuel cells are about 50% efficient, leaving you around 30% of the original energy. So pulling 10kWh from the socket leaves you with 3kWh to drive with.
That's (among others) how batteries are superior to hydrogen.
My point is you're gaslighting to pretend that fossil fuels burnt to power EV’s are better fossil fuels burnt to power electrolysis.
They both need the energy source to be made clean, but hydrogen will be cleaner at that point, regardless of the efficiency issues (which are already being addressed).
I just wrote why fossil fuels burnt for charging EVs are better than electrolysis. Not gaslighting, just math. Almost triple better in fact. Did you read it or just plugged you ears and sang very loudly?
And again, if you have fossil fuels you don't do electrolysis, there's better, more efficient methods to reform methane into hydrogen. Not close to the efficiency of batteries, but better than electrolysis. Use better arguments to defend your opinion, man.
And on top of that, think about the infrastructure. Compressing, transporting and even storing hydrogen requires complex equipment. I can generate green energy at home and charge my car with it, right now. We'll, not right know as it almost midnight, but I did it earlier today. Not at some point in the future, not addressing issues and maybe and perhaps. Literally today. No transport, other than the cables from my roof to my car.
And if I didn't have solar panels I could buy a generator for 300 bucks and create my electricity at home with some gasoline.
The problem is the cars, not the batteries. Tesla doors don't work when the power is cut, and you have to know the manual backup method, and people die of smoke inhalation because they panic and don't know.
You’re confusing cause & effect. The EV batteries catch fire, and then they get stuck in them due to system failures.
From what I’ve read, part of the problem there is that Tesla cut corners by tying all of the systems together on a single bus. It causes unrelated systems to suffer a cascade of failures during incidents.
Different times, different causes, and different ratios of incidents to total cars. I hate Musk, think any potential for Teslas has declined heavily in quality, and lots of mistakes have been made in its development. But this kind of comparison is a definite apples and oranges. Plus grouping every incident under "blows up" and the cause of death is a bit much. How many of those were due to drivers? How many Teslas that did have some fire warned their driver to pull over and save them, vs. a Pinto that...would just catch fire and couldn't possibly do that.
I mean be fair if you're going to be critical. There is plenty to be critical about, especially with the disaster known as the Cybertruck. Plus the last part...if no one is hearing about it, then why is it a damn meme at this point, and unjustified because while Tesla fires are a nasty thing to put out, there are still far more ICE fires, and THEY only get a side note in the local news, if that.
The fact is that cars should have gotten safer but not all have and you're here trying to say on some technicality that it's ok. But you don't even have facts to back that up
I never said anything like that, but if that's your perception of it, then so be it.
If you want a commonality of the two situations separated by 50 years, both car companies in their own ways have tried to rationalize the problems to downplay them, because in all that time it's still cheaper to pay settlements and fines than to fix the core problems. That is true beyond the car industry.
I seem to be unable to upload this gif directly to a comment. Please tell me what the difference between these two are, since we're clearly too stupid to determine it for ourselves.
Lots of people who are paying attention. Pretty much everyone on the news, including but not limited to government employees who were illegally fired by Elon.
Geez, yall just eat this stuff up and regurgitate it right back. One might expect kickbacks for pushing another's agenda like this, but alas, there are plenty of rubes on the internet that do it for free.
Later studies found that pintos were not particularly more likely to explode than other cars of the same form factor from that era. Turns out, plenty of other manufacturers cut costs by placing the fuel tanks in the rear bumper. And either way there's plenty of other things you should be more concerned about in deathtraps from that era, such as the steering column impaling you if the front of your car collides with anything, or the roof caving in if your car is ever upside-down.
What did Ford in was the Pinto Memo. Evil corpo pro-tip: Doing clownishly evil napkin math on the relative costs of lawsuits vs a cheap fix is fine, just don't be so dumb as to write it down where a hungry journalist might find it.
Anyway are teslas better or worse than the pinto or comparable modern cars? Who fucking cares, if people actually cared about car safety they would all be lobbying to ban cars within cities and Tesla "F"SD would be illegal everywhere. Anyway it seems that the Swasticar branding is doing more damage to Tesla's reputation than any amount of ludicrous safety and manufacturing issues ever did.
Fatal Self Driving
Because the percentages are less than the qty. The denominator is larger and the percentage is technically lower.
Idk I'm just talking out my ass but it sounds like it could math.
Quick eyeball of Tesla figures shows about 5mil sold over all models. Ford Pinto sold about 3mil. So the percentages are pretty close with Tesla deaths nearly quadruple Pinto deaths. And the truck hasn't been out long so who know how many that will kill in accidents given its construction.
That was the 90's. In 2025, you infiltrate the federal government, fire anyone investigating you, close departments that are a nuisance, and subvert the judicial branch.
what's this from?
Fight Club
oh shit what a blast from the past
It is this. Everyone seems to have forgotten the Ford Exploder and all the rollover accidents well above the industry average as well.
Tesla vehicle owner detected.
Yeah, but not for much longer. I've had my Model 3 for 7 years, well before Elon went full public Nazi, and when there were almost no similar alternatives for less than $80k.
Just Blbeing anti-Tesla just because it's the thing you do now is stupid. Facts are facts. Fascists aren't the only ones that like to ignore inconvenient facts.
Acting like the hundreds of thousands of existing Tesla owners are the same as people currently buying just makes you look like a dipshit.
You sound a bit defensive here.
I wasn't suggesting anything beyond the strong coping signal I saw with you defending the safety of a vehicle in the face of data.
You make it sound like I called you a musk fanboi so if we want to talk about things people do to make themselves look like dipshits, your post is a top contender.
That's exactly how your previous sentence came across, especially given the anti-Tesla sentiment. You can't honestly be trying to claim otherwise while being in the comment section of social media like Lemmy talking about Tesla.
If only that was true, but it isn’t. They’re about even, and even if they where behind on %, it should have been a pretty big case as we’re supposed to have learned and be more vigilant
If we had learned, we wouldn't be where we are.
There is a regular ICE car fire every 3 minutes in the US, even after the changes made in vehicle design. But no one likes to talk about that fact. It's normal and you don't get to feel superior on the internet for making a snarky reply making fun of a billionaire who doesn't know you exist or care about what you think.
Yes! Musk makes these cars. As the great engineer he is he hand built the original tesla using old tools he inherited from his father. I get to feel as superior as i want. The rules set out for plebs like you dont work on me.
He knows who I am, I’m the billions of dead people committing Medicare fraud! So efficient!
there are more teslas than there are pintos?
That seems like a safe bet to me.
Yep, I can't use this statistic for anything if it can't compare to totals. I'm assuming that teslas, as a whole brand, outnumbers ford pinto, a single model, by at least 10x.
Mor than 3 million Pintos were sold and all Tesla models combined are under 10 million
With this in mind, the fatality rate is roughly the same (so far)
That would be a shockingly bad statistic for Tesla to be on par with a Pinto. Yikes
I hate to defend Tesla because I hate the owner and there are serious issues with things like having the emergency escape door latches hidden and difficult to access...
But there were 1.5 million Pintos affected by the safety recall across 5 model years. Tesla sold more than that many cars last year alone, and estimates are they've sold about 7 million vehicles total.
The fire fatality rate was higher for Pinto than Tesla.
It's hard to comprehend how things have simply inflated over the years. We're dealing with massive numbers now, compared to 1970-1980....
That being said, even with the much higher numbers, we should consider the fact that as the numbers have gone up, so has safety technology.
So the cars should be expected to be safer year over year. The percentage of failures should be less.
That being said, just because it's a smaller percentage doesn't necessarily mean that we shouldn't care about it happening.
In the end, I find your comment to be very useful in gaining a bit of perspective. While it might not fundamentally change my opinion, or anyone else's, it's good to understand the magnitude of these numbers, in comparison to the overall volume of vehicles out there.
*Opens /all*
*3/first 5 posts "tesla" or "musk"*
"You don't hear about it."
My dude it's all I hear about ffs.
I guess it should be “why aren’t I hearing about this” and more “why isn’t anyone doing anything about this.”
Which is kind of just the reaction to everything Musk in general.
I mean, the Cybertruck is a joke.
She's a 21st century pinto, oh yeah!
A 21st century pinto, oh yeah!
Went to check the numbers and this site says the total number of Tesla deaths is higher(although not specifically from fires)
www.tesladeaths.com
I think the takeaway from that site is that the self driving deaths really aren't that far behind the deaths from Tesla fires.
Ah, yes, the thing we all haven't heard and seen constantly for years. /s
Tesla's exploding has been widely covered since the very first one happened, both as actual news and jokes/memes. This image is dumb as fuck, simply because of that. And I'd say with certainty that a LOT more people are aware of Teslas exploding than how many even know there was a car named Fort Pinto.
I'm all for Tesla going down the drain, and more of them exploding (without casualties), but report on that instead of making up dumb shit (that no one hears about it).
For one thing, in the Pinto days we didn't have information firehoses shooting streams of content at us 24/7. People were putting up "Hang In There" cat posters with scotch tape. And "You don't have to be CRAZY to work here... but it helps!!!" Those were simpler times.
I dunno, I've heard a lot of jokes about Teslas exploding
When Trump dies, President Musk will yeet the body in a flaming cybertruk to explode Obama's library because DEI
This is an acid trip of a comment
Tesla blames it on a software issue that will be "fixed in the next update"
Because censorship
Adjusting for inflation that hardly seems like a.... oh fuck it. Things should be getting better not worse!
sigh
Because that's actually a lower number when you compare it to cars in general. Those 83 fatalities happened over a period of 10 years.
EVs catching fire left and right is actually, probably, a talking point manufactured by the oil industry. Be careful who you ally with when you hate Tesla.
Also, get the fuck out of Facebook or wherever you get these shit memes.
Also. WE HEAR ABOUT IT ALL THE FUCKING TIME. There is nothing anyone likes more than taking a shit on Tesla. Often it is deserved. I still wouldn't sell either of mine for basically any ICE car. Yeah they suck. I'm still in.
I don't doubt that model Ys catch fire sometimes but the pic on the right looks like AI to me.
Yeah, that fire would be coming from the front storage space.
Looks like there's fire in the back too but the smoke is only coming from the side.
Then Elon and Tesla dismiss any valid complaints and criticisms as "far left gay communist propaganda" just 'cause he thinks everything's politically motivated, 'cause he thinks everyone should agree everything he does and those who don't are the enemy just like fascists and (also) actual communists.
You are all getting portable incineration in car free of charge and you complain?! Some people are impossible to please!
You guys heard about percentages?
You are right. There were 3 million pintos sold. So far there have been 6 million teslas sold. So it's much worse than we thought. 1970s tech joke of a car has a better fire rate Than a 2020s tech car. Thanks for bringing that up!
Utilitarianism is really only viable when the other option is EVERYBODY dies (give-or-take a percentage point or two); killing 10 to save 1000 only really works as an argument if the alternative is 1010 unavoidable deaths. 20 avoidable deaths and 80 avoidable deaths are still a fuck ton of avoidable deaths, especially when we HAVE the resources and the knowledge to prevent them but we just don't because of profit margins and shareholders
Tesla doesn't Equal pinto, it's actually much worse
Wdym I hear shit about it daily
![money] (https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/281d08be-9651-49e0-9c99-cfb597e508a6.jpeg)
It's more like ~3 pintos
We literally constantly hear about it. It's the safest post "TESLA SUCKS" haha here's 800 updoots.
Because cover ups.
Obviously you hear about it, we are all talking about it. My favorite is if it goes into a body of water you cant get out and then you slowly drown.
Calling it now: In the future, it’ll eventually come out that manufacturers knew EV batteries were not suitable for extreme temps (explode in extreme heat, won’t hold a good charge in extreme cold), and there’s been a massive industry push to keep these issues out of talking points.
Toyota will be vindicated in their push for hydrogen.
Yes Toyota will be vindicated any day now, as more hydrogen stations close and their sales go down. Any day now.
PS: the Mirai still has a quite sizable high volt battery, because fuel cells can't ramp up fast enough and for regen.
Right. Couldn’t be the monopolies protected in the fossil fuel & auto industries. Just a totally organic, politically backed opposition to cheap fueling with one of the most abundant resources on the planet.
It's not abundance that matters, it's availability. It takes a ton of energy to separate (usually from fossil fuels) and then compress (to seven fucking hundred atmospheres). By the time you're done it's barely more efficient than gas itself, just with no local emissions. And it's anything but cheap, it's similar price to gas.
I haven't charged my car at a "station" since my last road trip, almost a year ago. Plug it at home, ready next day. In summer, for free, and with green energy from solar panels.
If monopolies had so much power, BEVs and hybrids wouldn't exist. Or they would support Toyota and launch H2 cars themselves.
Hydrogen is just inferior to batteries for passanger cars. Could be a solution for long haul where batteries start to be too heavy.
Please explain how a battery charged from fossil fuels is superior to electrolysis powered by fossil fuels.
Hydrogen is not created by electrolysis powered by fossil fuels. Most is created by SMR directly from methane.
But since you insist:
That's (among others) how batteries are superior to hydrogen.
My point is you're gaslighting to pretend that fossil fuels burnt to power EV’s are better fossil fuels burnt to power electrolysis.
They both need the energy source to be made clean, but hydrogen will be cleaner at that point, regardless of the efficiency issues (which are already being addressed).
I just wrote why fossil fuels burnt for charging EVs are better than electrolysis. Not gaslighting, just math. Almost triple better in fact. Did you read it or just plugged you ears and sang very loudly?
And again, if you have fossil fuels you don't do electrolysis, there's better, more efficient methods to reform methane into hydrogen. Not close to the efficiency of batteries, but better than electrolysis. Use better arguments to defend your opinion, man.
And on top of that, think about the infrastructure. Compressing, transporting and even storing hydrogen requires complex equipment. I can generate green energy at home and charge my car with it, right now. We'll, not right know as it almost midnight, but I did it earlier today. Not at some point in the future, not addressing issues and maybe and perhaps. Literally today. No transport, other than the cables from my roof to my car.
And if I didn't have solar panels I could buy a generator for 300 bucks and create my electricity at home with some gasoline.
The problem is the cars, not the batteries. Tesla doors don't work when the power is cut, and you have to know the manual backup method, and people die of smoke inhalation because they panic and don't know.
You’re confusing cause & effect. The EV batteries catch fire, and then they get stuck in them due to system failures.
From what I’ve read, part of the problem there is that Tesla cut corners by tying all of the systems together on a single bus. It causes unrelated systems to suffer a cascade of failures during incidents.
EV batteries are still a problem: https://www.wired.com/story/ev-battery-fires-explained/
The cause is bad design. There are plenty of cars using batteries with the same or very similar chemistry that don't catch fire.
Which car company invented an EV battery that doesn’t catch fire? Someone would’ve won a Nobel prize for that.
Every other one. Unless you mean when they're damaged. All batteries can catch fire when damaged, that's just the nature of concentrating energy.
And I hope I don't need to tell you what can happen to fuel in an accident.
So what are you saying is the bad battery design in Tesla batteries specifically?
Different times, different causes, and different ratios of incidents to total cars. I hate Musk, think any potential for Teslas has declined heavily in quality, and lots of mistakes have been made in its development. But this kind of comparison is a definite apples and oranges. Plus grouping every incident under "blows up" and the cause of death is a bit much. How many of those were due to drivers? How many Teslas that did have some fire warned their driver to pull over and save them, vs. a Pinto that...would just catch fire and couldn't possibly do that.
I mean be fair if you're going to be critical. There is plenty to be critical about, especially with the disaster known as the Cybertruck. Plus the last part...if no one is hearing about it, then why is it a damn meme at this point, and unjustified because while Tesla fires are a nasty thing to put out, there are still far more ICE fires, and THEY only get a side note in the local news, if that.
So much missing of the point and defending going on here
Apples and Oranges. One car killed people, the other killed other people in other ways. Totally different.
A meme is only as good as what goes into it. And yes, I'll defend the facts over a silly meme that bends them to make it work.
Did I go overboard for just a meme, yeah, probably. I stand by what I said though, from a point of view of reality.
The fact is that cars should have gotten safer but not all have and you're here trying to say on some technicality that it's ok. But you don't even have facts to back that up
I never said anything like that, but if that's your perception of it, then so be it.
If you want a commonality of the two situations separated by 50 years, both car companies in their own ways have tried to rationalize the problems to downplay them, because in all that time it's still cheaper to pay settlements and fines than to fix the core problems. That is true beyond the car industry.
The meme actually makes a good point but you can reject it if you want
Yall so worried about this tesla shit. Yall are so ficking edgy. Yall are absorbed with the cult of personality.
Elon ain't nothing to spend so much emotional energy on. It's you guys who make him into something he's not. Take some breaths.
He's destroying our country bro
Who told you that?
dudes wasn't elected into his position and is an actual Nazi, do you NEED any more proof than that?
Lololol my god... youre brain washed and dumb. You presented no facts, but you consider it proof?
I don't like bashing the public school system, but it is letting down so many kids and parents.
I seem to be unable to upload this gif directly to a comment. Please tell me what the difference between these two are, since we're clearly too stupid to determine it for ourselves.
https://preview.redd.it/vpt4ycl43eee1.gif?width=480&format=mp4&s=c1a798d43430c807cadb69df4ea3d454e9a5b0c2
Lots of people who are paying attention. Pretty much everyone on the news, including but not limited to government employees who were illegally fired by Elon.
Geez, yall just eat this stuff up and regurgitate it right back. One might expect kickbacks for pushing another's agenda like this, but alas, there are plenty of rubes on the internet that do it for free.
"make him into something he's not"
he did a Nazi salute. What more convincing do you need?
Do you realize most people agree he didn't intentionally do a nazi salute? Oh, and he's shut down everyone that has asked him about it?
If he actually did a nazi salute, what would be the point if he just denied it? What is the point?
Jesus fucking Christ...