Let's stop playing around and talk about ditching something big: Visa and Mastercard
Visa and Mastercard are American companies, and they essentially tax everybody by taking a percentage of purchase prices for themselves. Not exactly a small percentage either, 1.2% to 2.65%. Ever wonder why so many merchants say they don't accept American Express? That's because they charge quite a bit more to merchantes, 50% more than Visa or Mastercard. Anyway, we're letting American companies tax us and we love them because we get rewards when we use cards. But it's just a shell game because we pay more up front because businesses need to charge more to make up for payment processing charges. They get to sit in the middle and rake in the money.
Now the alternative in Canada is Interac. Interac charges a set amount per transcation. How much? 2 to 5.5 cents. Unless you're going through Apple or Google Pay, and then it's a percentage again.
Interac is also Canadian.
Want to stick it to Trump? Stop using credit cards (and Google Pay or Apple Pay) and switch to Interac. Want to make Canada better? Stop using credit cards and switch to Interac. Is it going to be inconvenient? Yes. Online shopping will be much harder but I have seen online Interac payments before and we can ask our favourite Canadian merchants to accept Interac online.
Ahh, so as an American my only option is cash. 😔
Cash is better for privacy too. Don't be paying for that abortion, gun, or donation to environmental cause in this climate with Visa.
Not denying that. Most card purchases my family has is for groceries or clothing anyways.
A book here and there.
Ah yes, groceries. Link up a 100% accurate list of all the specific items you buy with your name. I thought some American stores did this for a while but am not sure.
I don't have much experience with American cards. I know debit cards are more common down there. Do they have the same merchant fees?
They're usually also managed by visa and such. I can't remember the exact numbers, but they have a higher initial fee and a lower percentage for a purchase.
I work for an American credit card company, and my advice is to ditch credit and debit cards entirely. Use cash.
As another American who works in the industry, it's a wedding cake of frighteningly bad software piled on top of well-intentioned but poorly implemented mandates piled on top of willful ignorance frosted with solving problems people don't actually have. And the little couple on top are both the capitalist pigman from a 1930s Soviet poster that we all recognize thanks to Hexbear :`(
I prefer cash too.
Good info from the inside, thanks. I had some money in a Digital Payments ETF but I recently dumped it and moved the money to a European fund instead. This makes me feel a bit better about that decision.
Credit cards (when used correctly) is one of the few pro consumer products we have left.
Most cards come with fraud protection, something you cannot get with cash, checks, or gift cards.
Similarly, most cards come with purchase protections like extended warranties. I have a credit card that gives me free damage protection on my cell phone so long as I pay the monthly bill with it.
I'm not saying cash isn't great but there are good reasons to use a credit card. At least for now.
I don't think those benefits are worth it when you consider the cost of having your purchase history and personal data for sale to anyone who wants it.
Yeah one of the few fixes to our shitty situation is to end surveillance capitalism. It’s deconstructing our behaviors trending them and exploiting them vs ourselves and the people around us.
Cash becomes a component of a healthy surveillance free (ish) lifestyle. But you probably wouldn’t be posting on any internet site if you were all in on it enough for swapping over to cash to matter. haha.
Eh, the job comes with certain expectations, they don't even have cash tills in the cafeteria.
I use my credit cards just enough to generate a plausibly normal profile, and cash for everything else.
I've been looking for a more ethical job, but the market for tech work is real fucked up right now..
Right, but that shit should be required by law, not bequeathed by US tech monopolists at a ridiculous fee.
I would love to hear your side of things. Cash is better for curbing impulse spending and it is of course anonymous but it is inconvenient. I feel like there's a target on my back when I walk around with more than a couple hundred dollars.
If enough people know you're carrying that much cash for it to be a potential issue, you've got other security issues that should honestly be your priority.
My personal opinion is that the convenience isn't worth the unspoken costs, much less the overt ones. Credit card processors already charge merchant fees on top of the interest charged by the banks that issue those cards, but they also get all your personal data associated with that card. It's more than enough to be worth selling to advertisers, so anyone who cares to spend a few bucks can buy your purchase history and build a profile. Name, address, contact info, the coffee shop you visit regularly and when you can be found there, the daycare you send your kids to, etc. It's very not-safe, especially when the government decides your type of person is now unpersoned.
More fundamentally though, I think the problem comes down to money itself. The use of any form of currency as both a store of value and a medium of exchange creates a multitude of perverse incentives to the detriment of society. Families work best when money isn't coming between them, and I think that principle is generalizable to our species as a whole.
Well, when on business trips, I can't just have a bunch of cash with me, so I could pay for hotels and every eventuality
Is there any way around that?
Best I can think of is taking a traveler's check to a local bank or currency exchange.
Hm...ok, thanks
I'll evaluate my alternatives
Also, sometimes buying something online, because I quickly need the hardware, only really works with credit cards.
All though real time money transfers at least start to speed up the traditional way ...
The Guardian published a story today about how Sweden's move to a cashless society is backfiring on them.
There also is no middle-man with cash.
Checkbooks exist for a reason.
Ok now, let's not go bringing back that nonsense. Cash is fine. You're no more likely to be robbed than usual because you're carrying a lot, and you can do what I do. If you need to carry a lot of money in cash, put $49 in your wallet and the rest in your sock.
I have carried $100-500 sometimes as high as $2k in my wallet for decades without a problem. Usually on the lower end of the 100-500 range unless I think I'll need it.
This might be a problem for someone who can't hold onto their belongings and leaves a trail of lost things everywhere they go. It might also be a problem for someone who lives in an area with high petty crime where they can expect to get jumped every once in a while. This is unlikely to be a problem for most people in the US states and European countries I've spent time in. Even in Argentina, which is not the safest place, I use cash exclusively.
As others have mentioned, when it starts getting into that $500-$1k range, you always have checks, wire transfers, Western Union, etc. I'm not selling out my privacy for a $5 bagel if I can help it.
Canadian debit cards are very different than American cards.
I nearly asked "What about American Express?". Sometimes I wonder how I graduated kindergarten.
It's okay, there are 35(?) countries I believe in America. 1 that gets talked about a lot. Being that they are discussing this from Canada in America, I'd say it's safe to consider maybe American Express could have been from Canada. Mexico, Argentina, Brasil, and most other large countries in America aren't English primary, so it would be harder to pass them off.
From my experience, all countries in North and South America (except the U.S.) refrain from referring to anything they do as American because they would 100% be assumed to be U.S.
Indeed, it took me a while to realize the other person meant "The Americas," aka North and South America and not the US, aka "America."
Mine as well. I also used to spell Brasil with a z, but since Bubba Gump tried to rename the Gulf of Mexico I'm avoiding our naming conventions.
The Canadian banks are big enough to build a wholly Canadian credit system for global use, especially if they could get everyone in Canada (and maybe elsewhere) to switch right now.
They probably get too many incentives from Visa and Mastercard to find it enticing though, which is why they're always pushing credit cards and offering cashback and airmiles, etc.
I think there is a European alternative being developed. Perhaps we can get in on that.
lol Canadian banks don’t even do their own credit analysis, and they rely on interac… they can’t even rollout the basics
For this to work, Interac needs to incentivize using it like credit cards do.
All types of loans require a credit score of some kind, and credit cards are one of the best ways to build this. Additionally, credit cards usually offer some kind of return.
Also because of poverty, a lot of people have a dependency on credit or payment plans.
Interac needs to make a Canadian answer to the credit card.
I'm European. We don't get credit card benefits, we just get stolen from. Everyone uses them nonetheless.
Oh wow no cash back at all??
What is it? You always pay the exact amount, why any cash back?
On a lot of credit cards you get rewards for using them, like interest income. Basically the more you use it, the more interest you get, and you'll get a credit in your account annually.
Some cards have different rewards like 2% back on all grocery spending for example.
Oh, we don't have that. Nor air miles. Nor easy refunds.
I suppose the "richer" Europeans do though, I heard it referenced in an English movie of the same name.
Also, we never used checks, pretty much. Probably contributed to the explosion of CC use in the 90s despite the lack of benefits.
That's very interesting, I learned something new today!
I've only ever used a debit card when I was in Europe. There was zero incentive to get a credit card. Moving in the US was different, I needed to build credit and cards were the best way.
Now I have a Prime card because 90%+ of my spending is on Amazon and at Whole Foods, both of which give 5% cash back. I get thousands every year, something really hard to give up. I wish I could stop giving Bezos money, but the convenience of Amazon is just too much of an advantage for me. And I know that shopping is now just a drop in their earnings compared to AWS.
I think this is due to credit card companies screwing over retailers in the US, and overall driving up all prices. The EU has a lower set % they can take per transaction, so there’s less impact on prices but also less fake incentives to use credit cards that ultimately just drive up all prices.
Pretty sure it’s this video that I learned it from: PolyMatter about credit cards
Is that a Cashback reference?
Yup! It's the most recent movie I've seen.
Many credit cards in North America have a cash back or loyalty points scheme. In cash back, you essentially get a cut of the network fee back as virtual value to pay off your statement. With points, you earn the points based on the amount spent, and can redeem them for things like travel or gift cards. Some merchant categories earn more as an incentive (e.g. 2% of purchase value or 10 points per dollar for groceries and monthly automatic bills, 1% or 5 points on everything else).
Edit: Oh and I should mention, some offer complementary car and travel insurance benefits, airport lounge access, electronic device insurance too. So it's definitely compelling for a lot of people, since >90% of places don't offer cash discounts or CC Fee, so people would essentially get or lose the benefits with no difference in price.
Well, we get none of that, which is why most cards used here are debit cards despite all being colloquially known as "kreditky".
You can get a line of credit from your local bank, tranfser the available funds into your checking account on demand, then use your Interac card. The amount and rates are variable, so you can start with a small amount with a high rate (like starter credit cards), and as you build a reputation, you can be loaned larger amounts at a better rate. No third party credit card company required.
This is definitely one of the biggest hurdles with getting rid of credit cards, the lack of easy credit history.
Going the line of credit route is ok, but there's no grace period before interest is charged, unlike most credit cards. So it's something to be aware of.
Part of the problem for me is that paying interest to RBC, BMO, Scotiabank, TD, CIBC, BN in place of American payment networks when they aren't really hurting for money, is not really helpful or impactful for anyone except for me in a negative way.
Credit unions do exist, and they keep money in the community much better than the big banks do.
The main reason to ditch Visa and Mastercard is hopefully if they get hit hard enough they'll lean on Trump to shut up about annexing Canada. Greenland and Panama too.
There's absolutely a way, for sure, I just mean it's gonna be difficult to get most people on board until there is an option just as or more convenient than the current one.
Mileage may vary, but in my experience in attempting to get a line of credit, theres a lot more information that needs to be not only shared (for the banks and credit unions I’ve tried applying to, both and credit card statements for the last 3 months needed to be shared, along with a written explanation on what I’d need a line of credit for).
The barrier to approval is rather high as well, especially if you don’t have any assets to provide as collateral (for a secured line of credit at least.)
It’s doubly a challenge if you don’t have a “good enough” net worth as well which if you’re out of school and had to take out student loans, then you’re already starting out with negative net worth.
In comparison, I was blanketly approved for multiple credit cards and all I had to provide was the necessary identifying information and a salary.
It sounds like I’m shooting down the option of getting a line of credit, but it can be a very difficult process to obtain one unless you can get a guarantor to co-sign, or you happen to be in a financially secured position to begin with, which isn’t the case for a lot of people, but still a very good option to attempt at getting.
I’ve given up taking visa / Amex / Mastercard. My business now only accepts Interac e-transfer and cash.
Interac is hands down the most secure way to pay for something. I never have to take a card from a customer, the customer never has to take on additional debt, the money is automatically deposited into my account within seconds, and it costs me absolutely no money to do this and I have to pay no money to a merchant to make it happen.
I wish I could do this at more places.
I’m on board for this but this proposal is up against a familiar devil: the network effect.
Shops support Visa and Mastercard because customers use them, customers use them because shops support them. This creates a powerful network that is extremely difficult for an upstart to unseat.
So while it’s a good idea to encourage people to take individual action on this — and you’re doing a great job doing so, and I’m taking it to heart for my own actions — we also need to accompany this with a policy solution to help overcome the network effect.
You're right and the network effect would be very hard to overcome for this. It would need a lot of media attention just like liquor and alcohol.
I whipped this up too.
This is super cool. And you’ve inspired this Canadian to start moving more payments to Interac. Love the message and I’m on board.
My suggestion to accompany this with policy is not an alternative to taking personal action, but complementary.
One piece of constructive feedback on the artwork— it might be helpful to stress the positive aspect front and centre. For example lead with Interac with a maple leaf, and the American systems in lower prominence by having them 2/3 sized and positioned below.
Please don’t misconstrue my feedback in your mind as an attempt to distract or demoralize you through bike-shedding or anything like that. You’re doing great stuff and it’s inspiring.
So glad I could inspire you! And I didn't take any offense to your comments. I just kinda woke up angry this morning (my other pet peeve is unsynchronized traffic lights) and made this post. I suppose I could put some real work into making an image that can be shared. I like your ideas.
I feel you on that. I’ve been on a bit of a tear myself, spilling thousands of words on this site and Reddit and Bluesky in various posts and comments.
You have a point when it comes to online shopping (although I'd call it a simple monopoly), but there's no such effect at physical stores. Interac and cash are already universally accepted, people can stop using visa/mastercard right now and not even have to think about it. Just grab a different card when you leave the house.
Needs to be a solution for those of us who are housebound and/or rural. Online is our only option.
You’re correct that it’s a monopoly, but the point I’m trying to make is that because of the network effect the monopoly will be difficult to unseat without accompanying policy.
Just like tipping, a percentage system makes no sense. It's the exact same work to bring me a $50 meal vs a $500 one. And for payment processing, a flat fee makes much more sense because there's no difference in processing a $100 transaction vs a $10,000 one.
So why does a percentage-based system persist? Because workers want higher wages (understandable when restaurants refuse to pay them more and expect the customer to pay part of their income). And for giant corporations like Visa and MasterCard, it's literally never enough for them. They can make more money, so that's the only reason. It's so dumb...
Ah, but it's a credit card, emphasis on credit. The bank issuing the card is making a short term loan that will either get paid off by the card holder at the next billing cycle, or will automatically turn into an indefinite length loan at what is usually an exorbitant interest rate.
The bank is always taking a risk that they won't get paid. That's why the amount they get paid for this risk needs to scale with the size of the transaction.
Debit card doesn't have this specific risk; the money is either immediately transferred from the cardholder's account or the transaction is declined.
This is a brilliant strategy. Thank you for sharing that.
I have a cash back VISA card. The week after Jan 20, I pulled my card info off every online service I use, stopped using the card entirely, and a few days ago canceled it completely. It was a tough choice. I generally earned about $600 a year cash back, but it's time to free ourselves of America and forge our own path. I don't really see the Can/American relationship ever being repaired at this point. Time to move on.
Cashback/rewards schemes on cards ought to be illegal anyway. The money ultimately comes from higher prices.
Cards like Amex are just not accepted in most small businesses in Australia already (but this is by choice, not law)
There's no free lunch
I have never yet had a problem challenging and reversing a charge made to my credit card. Their fraud detection also seems to be superior. On the other hand, members of my family have had to jump through hoops when challenging fraudulent Interac transactions. They have felt like they are being seen as the more likely perpetrator, and meanwhile the money is no longer in their account while the process drags out. Very stressful.
In general, I prefer using cash because of less information being generated, but I agree that we shouldn't pretend that CCs don't also have advantages (if you're not one to rack up debt). Smaller purchases where carrying cash is reasonable? Absolutely. Larger purchases where you need some insurance? CC.
The other day I made a purchase at a store and noticed I was charged for something I didn't buy (not that something was charged twice, it was an entirely foreign item that wasn't even physically there). The transaction had to be voided and then re-done. The cashier and the manager (who was needed to void the tx) both said it was good I had paid by credit instead of debit because it's a lot harder even for them to return money via debit. I have no idea why, and neither did they.
Some years ago, Air Canada's system said I didn't pay for my flight when I tried to check in. But I was already on the manifest and had already been assigned a seat. How could I possibly have an assigned seat if I hadn't paid? The desk agent was sympathetic but could not overrule the system, so I had to pay again for the seat that was already assigned to me. Air Canada could not refund the original payment because I supposedly had never paid it in the first place. I had to use a chargeback to get my money back. If not for CC chargeback, I would have lost that money entirely.
That airline sounds like the stereotypical corporate BS we've all grown used to now. Not asking in an asshole way, but because I want to understand: did you have a receipt?
I had a booking/confirmation number and everything. I even showed the CC statement from my phone, which also had the booking number, too, but the counter agent didn't have the ability to change it even though he could see my name and seat on the flight. I had no time left, so I paid again and ran to security and then to the gate.
At least the the counter agent gave me a voucher for the trouble. I got myself a beer on the plane with it, because I needed it at that point!
YES, I ain't even Canadian but been saying this since day, those 2 companies are such a huge factor in how much leverage this 2 party dictatorship has over majority of the world, that and Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. This is why Cash is King, and using American payment processors just feeds their power and leverage over global finance.
You can see how its affected Russia when US payment processors halted operations as part of sanctions. The only viable alternative is using Monero for online transactions and physical cash.
Monero is the only realistic and promising way of paying people online without relying on the two largest payment processors on the planet, fully under the control of the US. The ONLY crypto that's actually treated and used as a currency, rather than a stock like btc, and actually has any real world use and offers privacy.
As much skepticism as it might have, if you can't use cash for a transaction, crypto is another viable alternative which can be decentralized, trustless and private preserving, as long as you don't fall for VC scams like Solana, Avalanche, Sui, etc
As always, DYOR
In Brazil, there is no alternative :(
For a huge chunk of the internet there isn't one either. If Visa/Mastercard suddenly decide they don't want to do business with you anymore, you're fucked.
When I was paying at a local shop recently, I mentioned to the owner I'm trying to pay cash now rather than card because Visa is a US company and he he thanked me, since using a credit card costs them money.
What happens if your card is Interac and Visa debit?
Good question! I suppose the merchant can use either system with your card.
That is true. The vendor will process through the system of choice.
They will choose the cheapest option which should generally be Interac.
Good news.
I recently stopped using my cashback Mastercard in favour of my plain old Interac. I did notice that when I add my Interac/Visa Debit to Samsung Wallet it only shows the Interac logo.
It’s not all or nothing as you have options folks:
If you still want to use credit cards to increase your credit rating and to receive the cashback you can just Interac/cash/direct deposit for small businesses and charities then use the credit cards for the big guys.
You can also just boycott Visa, Mastercard, American Express and Discover for the duration of the trade war or the Trump presidency.
Sometimes incremental change is the way to go.
Additional information from Goodsuniteus on the political contributions of the credit processors:
Visa: 51% democrat / 49% republican / very high contribution level.
Mastercard: 56% democrat / 44% republican / very high contribution level.
American Express: 56% democrat / 44% republican / very high contribution level.
Discover: 72% democrat / 28% republican / very high contribution level. (May be acquired by Capital One)
Capitol One: 48% democrat / 52% republican / contribution level very high.
PayPal: 66% democrat / 34% republican / contribution level high.
Apple Pay: 85% democrat / 15% republican / contribution level very high.
Google Pay: 85% democrat / 15% republican / contribution level very high.
Samsung Pay: 63% democrat / 37% republican / contribution level medium. (At least South Korean)
Why do companies put money on both parties? If I'm a candidate and they give money to my enemy it's like not giving me money at all right? Right?
It may be beneficial for a company to donate to specific senators/representatives which are likely to win races. One notable example is DisneyWorld donates primarily to democrats but always ensure some $$ (bribe?) goes to the republicans who win in Florida.
There's a couple websites out there, but I use this one when finding companies/products to buy from.
https://www.goodsuniteus.com/
Good post. This is pretty much what I do.
Just FYI, you don't need credit cards to increase your rating. Just keep up on your loans. Although hence, it does require a loan or two
See, not using Google Pay is something even I, a non-Canadian, European person can do. doingmypart.jpg!
Most bigger Dutch banks used to have their own payment app, but they've all switched to integrating with Google Pay, and removed the alternative.
I've gotten used to mobile payments — to the point where I don't even know my debit card pin anymore — so it's hard to switch back, but damn is it annoying the service companies have gone evil.
It's been convenient to use my phone to tap and pay for things. But like, only slightly more than pulling out my debit card. Just got a new minimalistic wallet with a card ejector too so it's kinda fun to use.
I actually need the cash back I get from my credit card though, it's more than 1000 per year
But you do understand that if credit card cash backs didn’t exist, prices would likely fall by more than the cash back?
Here is the problem. You're not going to get the general population to care enough to change their behavior, and then the only people who miss out are the people who are no longer getting their cash back off their whiny self-righteous protest that amounted to less than a rounding error.
Case in point: I live in one of the most liberal cities in the United States. There is technically supposed to be a one month long boycott (lol) of Target right now. Guess the parking lot of which local retailer is still as packed as it always is every day?
People won't give a shit until they are massively inconvenienced with no alternatives.
This isn’t necessarily a market answer though. In a well functioning country, government could intervene to disrupt the status quo. For example, in Denmark, the government mandated a very, very low fee card system (imaginatively called DanCard) that basically ran at cost rather than profit. While it’s a fully private system now, regulation still governs a maximum charge which is far lower than the fee for using a Visa or Mastercard or, worse, Amex.
In a world where government works on your behalf, actions can actually occur to benefit the citizens.
Yeah that makes sense
People prefer cards over carrying cash though, and you have to kinda work to collect the cashback. Most don't bother, which is why the system is profitable overall.
Honestly I think you're better off extracting money from a large corporation you don't like (if you can, it's obviously difficult) compared to ignoring them.
For example, if you really hate a company, flood their sales line with nonsensical calls. It'll usually be a domestic agent for the sales line, and in Australia at least the average cost to answer a call fully loaded, charged by a call centre management company, is around $30AUD. You also increase demand for low paid workers. If you could figure out a way to do this en-masse for a company without annoying the individual agent, you could do some serious financial damage in a way that's probably legal.
Edit: If I hated a company, and I had a lonely/senile relative, I would give them a special phone where every button on the phone called the sales line. That way the elderly relative gets a chat and keeps their brain active, and you get to cost the company hundreds of dollars a day. The sales agent is also unlikely to be bothered by an occasional chat with a senile person to break up their day.
My cash back is a single button press on the online banking and I have the money in 24h, no working for it whatsoever
I think need to have $50 minimum though
At least where I'm from, some stores offer discount for cash greater than the cashback. I always ask :)
Yeah try offering a mechanic cash. It works well. Lol
Nationalize them! Bring this back under societal control and eliminate that tax.
Then SpaceX, Twitter, and Amazon.
Of course this assumes we defeat the fascists and fix the Supreme Court first.
I think this is spoken from the point of view of an American? Canada can't nationalize American companies...
Canada could however fund its own federal credit system to compete and add a big fat tariff on MC and Visa tx's if they wanted to force people to adopt it rapidly.
I have a terrible habit of forgetting which community I'm in.
That’s alright haha. But I agree that every country should have their own national card system like Interact here in Canada
I have the same question as sloppychops. If my interac debit card is also Visa, how would I know whether the payment terminal is routing through Visa or Interac?
I am one who offers to pay in cash sometimes to small businesses, treating it like an additional tip. But more and more businesses in the Vancouver area use Clover (A Canadian subsidiary owned by Wells Fargo) and Square (American fintech), and either take card only (which they get their cut with Interac debit too), or the staff get a little impatient when I rummage around for cash in my wallet.
I checked my bank for that recently. If you tap or use your PIN in Canada, it's Interac. Everything else is VISA.
Please understand that there are also many third party card processors. That is the company that takes the transaction from the merchant to the payment system. The payment system then takes the transaction to the bank.
Don't be discouraged, but someone may need to become card processors to vendors.
Pressure on Visa and MasterCard may work, but the boycott will need to overcome license fees.
There is hope. Here in Norway, we have a parallel system called BankAxept handling card and online payments within the country. Most/all debit cards are dual, and Visa is only used as a fallback. I believe lobbying for a similar system in other countries, or better yet for the EU as a whole, would be a good way to get started.
It's not in any way a tax. It's a fee you pay for a service you wish to use. It's as much a tax as the money spent on a doughnut is a tax.
The rest of your idea is great. Wish I had access to something like that.
At least you can see a tax on your receipt. Visa, MasterCard and so on all have in their contracts with businesses that you can't tell the customers how much it costs.
I call it a tax because the charge is a percentage of the transaction instead of a flat fee. The fact that Interac can charge a flat fee shows that it is possible.
The "tax" is only accepted because consumers can't see it, and then we're offered rewards like the percent cash back. That's our own damn money they're rewarding us with!
I've known some methane who claim that they also have a flat fee, even from visa and MasterCard. So it can certainly be done.
So in regards to payment cards etc.... the CC's basically have three primary benefits to them: 1. They can do 'quick' settlements for in person POS services. 2. They are generally accepted for online payments far more than other methods. 3. They provide access to credit / funds that the customer/user may not normally have access to, in exchange for a high interest rate on amounts owing each month. This also allows people to make larger purchases periodically, and pay off the purchase price over a slightly longer period.
For item 1, the physical cards are not that different than the regular debit cards that get used. There's nothing 'technically' stopping a debit card from being mapped to a line of credit account on a banking system -- such a card would be able to get used anywhere debit cards can get used, so pretty good market penetration off the bat. Only thing potentially stopping the tech side would be 'paper' agreements with interac etc... but those are 'easy' to change with enough demand. So you'd potentially need some adjustments from industry to accommodate this, across the payment switch providers and back end orgs.
For item 3, the availability of credit on those cards / accounts is entirely do-able through a small FI -- historically, they offered lines of credit based on 'signatures' / 'a promise to pay' and good general payment standing at a credit bureau. Canada's regulators changed much of that, forcing industry to heavily preference real estate backed loans -- debt servicing risks for cc 'personal' locs are generally offloaded onto the credit card company directly. So the govt would likely need to relax their regulations on this front, otherwise its untenable for a small FI to provide credit based on signatures. In some ways this would likely be better for the end user, in terms of rates and limits, as a smaller FI, especially one that's cooperative in nature, is less likely to push exploitative rates/conditions.
To clarify how that's controlled by regulators: in BC as an example, the BC FSA regulates Credit Unions, and it also oversees the Credit Union Deposit Insurance Corporation -- the thing that insures the CU's deposits. Credit Unions pay premiums to CUDIC based on the "risk assessment" of the FSA. The FSA rates you very risky if you do signature loans / stuff not backed by RE or other 'fully funded' types of securities (eg. a $5k line of credit, 'secured' by a $5k term deposit). The annual cost difference can eat up like 30% of the small FI's profit, if they're deemed risky. Unless there was some way to 'make up' that loss via the 'risky loans', it's not a viable business decision for CUs to take -- especially when you add in the need for slightly increased monitoring for more 'fluid' payment accounts. Best to keep the regulators happy, to keep your insurance costs as low as possible. So you'd need govt to change its approach.
For item 2, there are lots of viable options for online payments already -- the issue is mostly user adoption and business standardization / app availability. For purchases that aren't 'in person', having a slightly longer settlement time isn't a big issue -- if you're buying a thing online, in general, who cares if the payment is 'instant', or if it takes 15 mins to clear. Things like the interac e-transfers are able to route payments to people in this fashion, and are heavily used in some areas currently -- paying trades, paying rent, paying kids extracurricular, and anything where 'cheques' use to be a norm. AFTs are also still used for many 'bigger' bills/companies, but they're decreasing in popularity -- there are fewer millenials/genZ who are using AFTs for payments, and fewer businesses that go through the process of getting it setup on their end to allow for it. That last parts a similar impediment to adoption of etransfers more broadly -- you see CC payment options for most online purchases, but you almost never see e-transfer options... even though they're functional for regular person to person payments. Having a business email setup with an auto deposit isn't too difficult -- as noted, many small contractors go this route -- but its not common at larger businesses.... for no particular reason.
All that on item 2, is basically to say you need to get most businesses to adopt a 'standard' method for online payments. If every shop you went to had a different 'payment app' you had to download, create an account, transfer money to the account, to use the account... it wouldn't have general end user appeal due to its burden. Credit cards have a simple, ubiquitous standard that's got a ton of apps and plugins to accommodate -- we'd need similar embracing of a, general industry/economy/nation wide approach.
All of these things are do-able, if there's political will. But only if there's political will. If you look at the financial industry, they're generally in bed with US/foreign tech companies these days. Even our govt is run on Microsoft. Getting people to move away from American options would require clear messaging from regulators of "critical infrastructure" industries (like banking), and potentially options for government support as part of those tech migrations (tax breaks to hire specialists/retrain people/develop different apps). Like a positive step would be seeing the BC FSA charge huge "insurance" premiums for Credit Unions which are almost entirely in Microsoft's cloud / US controlled infrastructure. We don't see any of that currently -- instead, we see regulators like the BC FSA shrugging as the industry debates whether online banking portals should be outsourced to a company in Portugal, one in India, or one in the USA (the Canadian CU Trade association, central1, recently walked away from this service area -- with their CEO even getting a bloody business in vancouver award for abandoning it). We likely won't see anything 'material' on this front until after the next election at the very earliest, is my guess. But even then, I doubt they'll put the kind of urgency on it to avoid this sort of thing becoming a potential issue in trade talks.
The other major advantage of credit cards is consumer protection. Generally speaking you can't file a dispute or do a charge back on a debit transaction -- or at least it's very difficult and time-consuming. Credit cards offer a certain amount of peace-of-mind when it comes to things like fraudulent transactions.
True, though Debit cards offer some protections as well. I mean, interac cards do fully cover fraudulent charges already under their zero liability policy, so I'm guessing your main point is that it's "easier" to challenge bogus cc payments.
But in general, while I agree it's a feature of the cards, I don't think it's a 'main' thing that drives their usage. Sorta like, in the interac card agreements, there's usually a clause that says buying something with a warranty on debit, adds a year to the warranty period, up to a max of something like 5 years - so the default 1y warranty turns into 2y. It's a nice feature, if you take advantage of it. But that's not something that most people know/care/take advantage of, and it's not a 'driving' feature for people adopting/using interac cards.
Fuck banks. If you're ditching Visa, let's talk about creating like an open source bank or something similar.... The world central open bank. Anyone from anywhere can deposit any valuable into it etc etc including bitcoins. Then maybe no charge if you use the world card!!!
Same with mastercard.
You're complaining about something Interac does that credit cards can't even do? I'll wait while you send money with Visa by text.
Ah, I see. I was comparing Interac to credit cards.
3 times in my life I took out a consolidation loan to corral all those costs and pay them off. Credit cards are both a blessing and a curse. Gov't should provide credit services at a reasonable, non-compounding, interest rate.
Between credit card companies, finance companies and the banks, the interest they extract yearly would put all the space billionaires to shame.
No one has enough money, and this trend will get worse as this trade war goes on. Unless you can replace the credit buffer this initiative is a non starter.
To many people are living partly on a credit card, we need to ether replace it with an non american credit card, some other form of credit (LoCs are harder to get at the moment) or find a way to get more money to Canadians.
Also, you can use your bank card online as a credit card.
Doing so would be over Visa Debit or Mastercard Debit - not Interac. The only difference is that they have a lower interchange rate.
I dont see how you can do that without launching your own national credit card companies. And good look trying to do any grass roots organizing for that.
Note that most of that fee (80%) goes to the issuing bank. The rest is split between network ("the logo on you card") and the actual payment processor.
Yes, it's still .15% that visa or mc take but still (also, I think visa was a cooperative at one point held by all the member banks, not sure that still is the case). And CCs are dumb but that's not the point here :)
(Source: https://www.retailcouncil.org/payment-and-credit-card-fees/)
Hey, that's a great source link. Thanks for that!
I guess having the issuing bank take most of the fees is why everyone pushes having you use their credit card.
Either way, a boycott of American includes not sending a % of a purchase to the US.
Did you even read the post? Nowhere does it argue for ditching electronic payments. Outside of the west, alternative payment apps are widespread.
crypto doesnt help, because all of the crypto coins can easily be captured and influenced by big tech. most of them are also super heavily reliant on US tech
looking for a technological solution to a systemic problem is a bad idea really
if you really want to change things, we need to end capitalism
Everyone says "dicking around" instead of "dicker around", I don't think that the poster has any other motives.
Are you off your meds or something?
Thank you for looking up the definition, and I can recall that "dickering" would be definitely used when bartering and I think I grew up with "stop dicking around" as a colloquialism for "let's get serious about this". I clearly did not intend for the title to be for men only, but I can see how the wording could offend and in fact I was a little uncomfortable with it myself. I was searching for a word stronger than "playing" but didn't want to go with "fucking". Either way I have edited the title. Women actually are the demographic to target for this kind of action as women perform a massive 80% of domestic spending!
Do you want a genuine definition of the phrase?
You could substitute the word "playing".
I'd say men playing with their dicks instead of doing productive things is the exact definition.
This is what crypto was made for. No more censorship by toxic duopoly.
I thought crypto was made to buy weed. /s
Can't wait for US government to sue blockchain for facilitating illegal transactions
That's literally what I thought Insta-gram was for. I only knew of it because dealers used it and I thought it allowed you to get a gram delivered almost instantly.
It’s made for the dark web. A hell of a lot worse than just weed.
It isn't made for dark web. It's made for everyone, no matter the usecase
Are you 14? This might be the dumbest post I’ve ever read in my life. Like, love the energy bud. Just use your fucking debit card.
I have never seen the option to use or have ever heard of interac in my life.
Interac is something every Canadian is familiar with. Americans have Venmo, etc. We have Interac.
Remember, Google — as opposed to obnoxiousness — is your friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac?wprov=sfti1