Lemmy.world Hexbear Statement
Update:
The comments from this post will not be removed as to preserve the discussion around the announcement. Any continued discussions outside of this thread that violate server rules will be removed. We feel that everyone that has an opinion, and wanted to vent, has been heard.
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Original post:
Yesterday, we received information about the planned federation by Hexbear. The announcement thread can be found here: https://www.hexbear.net/post/280770. After reviewing the thread and the comments, it became evident that allowing Hexbear to federate would violate our rules.
Our code of conduct and server rules can be found here.
The announcement included several concerning statements, as highlighted below:
- “Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated.”
- “The West's role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
- “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term "rules-based international order." It is in the Left's interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
The rhetoric and goal of Hexbar are clear based on their announcement: to "dismantle western propaganda" and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.” It’s to push their beliefs and ideology.
In addition, several comments from a Hexbear admin, demonstrate that instance rules will not be respected.
Here are some examples:
“I can assure you there will be no lemmygrad brigades, that energy would be better funneled into the current war against liberalism on the wider fediverse.”
“All loyal, honest, active and upright Communists must unite to oppose the liberal tendencies shown by certain people among us, and set them on the right path. This is one of the tasks on our ideological front.”
- https://lemmy.world/comment/121850
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1487168
- https://lemmy.world/comment/1476084
- https://lemmy.world/comment/171595
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3648500
Overall community comments:
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526128
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3526086
- https://www.hexbear.net/comment/3652828
To clarify, for those who have inquired about why Hexbear versus Lemmygrad, it should be noted that we are currently exploring the possibility of defederating from Lemmygrad as well based on similar comments Hexbear has made.
- https://lemmygrad.ml/post/158656
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/882559
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/540170
- https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/446529
Defederation should only be considered as a last resort. However, based on their comments and behavior, no positive outcomes can be expected.
We made the decision to preemptively defederate from Hexbear for these reasons. While we understand that not everyone may agree with our decision, we believe it is important to prioritize the best interests of our community.
I definitely appreciate the hesitation in defederation, but I'm in favor of defeding with both hexbear and lemmygrad.
I've seen more than enough "Stalin did nothing wrong posts" to know that discussions are pointless and would lead me only to frustration and a desire to drink.
Honestly the hardcore tankies initially soured me from joining the fediverse at first, until I understood how the fediverse functioned and realized it was just a loud minority that held extreme views. It's still disturbing to read genocide denialism while openly supporting things such as authoritarianism and Russian imperialism.
Tankies are souring a lot of people from joining in my subjective experience. One of my friends questioned the presence of them and the views of the developers (and also why the "main" (not accurate but they haven't even joined, so) instance lemmy.ml had the .ml domain to begin with) and I couldn't give a satisfactory answer at the time, as I didn't know enough about the place yet.
Upstanding instances should do their part to defederate from any tankie or fascist instances, so we can all distance ourselves from extremist rhetoric and make it seem like an actually OK place to hang out.
I moderate 8 subreddits with a combined userbase of 4.2million subscribers. And a bunch of small ones.
Originally I intended to bring those userbases over here. But the way this instance has been run and the interactions I and other mods have had with the team over PM trying to resolve various issues resulted in each and every one of the modteams I'm in saying "yeah fuck that" over time and getting to know the place. This would have resulted in stickyposts and bringing over thousands, perhaps 10s of thousands, in extremely enthusiastic waves. And this didn't just affect the teams I'm part of, because everyone on those teams also shares links to many many other teams through all the backrooms.
Communists aren't the problem. This instance's policies - which started out looking incredibly promising and had everyone highly optimistic - has singlehandedly killed the interest of dozens and dozens of modteams and by extension the opportunity to bring across massively more people.
You do realize that you don't need to join Lemmy.world, right? There's plenty of other instances with different moderation policies that might suit you, or you could just make your own instance. That's kind of the whole point of the fediverse. The reason why there's so much contention around this post is because the people who have accounts here are somewhat stuck until account migration is added.
Of course I do have you read my username?
Apologies, I did not.
(previous comment bugged, reposting it)
Given the way Hexbears own rules are written, the tone and very obvious motivations behind it, I’m not sure we’re missing much.
But would you care to share some examples of what the issues are?
Sorry what? I can't read context so I don't quite get what you're trying to say. Could you maybe quote what you were responding to?
I'm not sure what the problem is with hexbear's rules. It's a socialist instance of course it aims to remain socialist. Do you look at the lgbt instances and say "how dare they have motivations to keep their community lgbt!" No of course you don't. It's a fundamentally absurd notion.
Hexbear's goal is to be leftist and have a fucking laugh while doing it. Nothing more. This shit has created a mountain of entertainment, nothing changes for Hexbear but this instance has pissed and shit all over itself.
Yeah, I checked out Lemmy some time ago and noped out pretty quick after seeing it was mostly just Lemmygrad at the time. Happy to be here now that there's a lot more going on and not super keen on that face of Lemmy gaining a bigger presence again.
Are you the PoppinKREAM from reddit?
Yes I am, hello o/
Whether it's reddit or lemmy I've always blocked all politics and world/local news related communities, since they rarely seem to really be a place that's been cordial in the comments. And I've moved onto RSS feeds anyways over user submission driven news feeds.
Seems to be what has kept me the most sane and happy using social media.
"Stalin did nothing wrong" posts. Where are those, exactly?
We criticize Stalin plenty. We just don't buy that he ate babies and murdered innocent farmers with his bare hands.
Just block them bro.
I had enough of people like you, but you don't see me asking that we defederate you.
Au contraire, mon ami:
link
I was demonstrating a point.
just admit you were wrong. It's ok.
?
you high?
It's because as a solid minority. That is often hated in the places they once had jurisdiction for good reason. You generally don't get the chance. Or if you did, it would close you off in a tiny little Echo chamber that's already far too strong. And I say this as someone who is supportive and open towards communism and abolishing Concepts such as private property and replacing with personal property. But I am sanctially against ml communism.
I absolutely think there can be a discussion about whether or not Vladimir Lenin's Legacy on the whole was neutral. He definitely did some good things for russia. Though those same things were happening around the world regardless. So it is impossible to say that they wouldn't have happened without him. But it is possible to say absolutely that a lot of death destruction and brutality were enabled by him. And his ideology single-handedly setback discussions of all left-wing Economic Development for a century or so. Those defending Stalin Mao or even Xi today. Well I don't have anything diplomatic to say about them.
Does hesitation mean something else where you live?
Freedom of speech does not constitute an obligation to listen.
Good for you!
Exactly. Freedom of speech != Freedom from social consequences
Well, in a truly "free" society, yes freedom of speech would constitute freedom from "social consequences." However, the United States, and in fact, no Earth government, is a truly free society. There are rules and laws that exist, thus restricting freedoms. However, specifically regarding freedom of speech as it is mentioned in US law, it specifically is a protection for citizens from retaliation by the US government, and does not cover interactions between citizens.
So I wouldn't say "freedom of speech doesnt mean freedom from social consequences," but rather "freedom of speech does not include a requirement that others listen." There are laws with regards to how other citizens can respond, including laws against assault and libel and such. But there is no law that says anyone must to listen to what you have to say simply because you have the freedom to say it. Thats quite a preposterous idea.
At least in the US, each citizen has the right to say what they choose within the constraints established by law, and to choose who they will listen to.
Just as people can refuse to listen, they also can refuse to interact with persons that say things that upset them. This is a social consequence, and one that would be still be present in a “truly free society”.
A truly free society would have no consequences, laws, or restraints on behaviour.
You can see a very obvious reason why that would be very bad. Thus there is no society on Earth that is truly free. Restrictions exist to protect people, that is the nature of things.
I think you've managed to define an oxymoron of a society.
Society does not exist without consequences. That's what laws/rules/agreements are necessitated on. As in, a society with no consequences is not a society. I'd go so far to say that society is a system of consequences.
Even in a "lawless societies" hierarchies form, and then agreements turn to rules turn to defacto law.
This is like saying "I can never truly be free because gravity binds me to the ground". Like, ok, sure, but you had to define freedom in a non-standard way to get to that conclusion (I'm trying make this make sense, is it landing well?)
No? That would imply it's not free, as the receivers aren't free to act upon the given information freely?
If the society is truly "free", as in, absolutist free, then if someone said something you didn't like, you could just punch them in the face without consequence. But that means the original speech had a consequence based on the social interaction with you!
Now if only everyone would be so quick to defederate preemptively from Nazi instances.
Not really no. I have a pretty extensive defed list on my instance if you want to check, but it's not all Nazis (bots as well).
What a great sentence, well said. I’m going to use that in the future.
I usually support that sentiment, but it only applies when it is in your hands whether we listen or not. In this case, the admins singlehandedly decided that none of us can. This is pretty much a form of censorship IMO
The admins don't control you. You can have an account anywhere else you want to. So unless you're paying for the servers here, you can deal with the Terms of Service or not use it.
As I said in another reply:
The people who own a lemmy instance have the right to associate (federate) with whatever other instances meet their guidelines.
If you don't agree, then you are free to join a different lemmy instance that is federated with objectionable material.
You don't have the right to demand that lemmy.one meets your standards. You don't own it.
If you find that no other instance federates with what you want, you're free to make your own, with blackjack, and hookers.
https://youtu.be/e35AQK014tI
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/e35AQK014tI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Try telling that to the lemmyers (lemmings?) In this Technology thread that were clowning mastodon.art for blocking social.bbc for BBC's history of transphobic rhetoric, considering there are a decent amount of transgender people (and other LGBTQIA+ identifying people) are members of their instance. Same situation, definitely not the same reaction.
EDIT: It was in Technology on lemdro.id, not Fediverse. EDIT 2: Spelling
Yeah but there's a big difference.
As people right fully call out in that thread, defederation from the BBC without them having had a fediverse presence to do anything worth defederating with is wild. It's the same broken argument as pre-emptively defederating from threads was, barring worries about sync-load or something.
But in the case of Hexobear, they do have lots of content based upon which you can judge whether federation with the instance is worth the extra moderation effort for you as an admin or not. In this case the lemmy.world admins decided that it is not worth it, an defederated.
However, importantly they had something to judge what working with the communities from the instance would be like. With BBC or Threads, no one had that. And while every instance admin is of course free to do whatever they want, they're also making a really good point against the fediverse as a technological solution if they act that way.
Consider that if it were a central site, defederating from tankybear is the equivalent of banning a community. The BBC/Threads thing is preemptively blocking a community from ever being created. There are very rare cases where the latter might be warranted, but it's tough to imagine scenarios where it would have a meaningful reason.
I don't agree that there's a big difference, though. Yes, one has much more of a base for their claims than the other, but both defeds are based largely on the personal opinions of the administrators of the instances, whether they're politically motivated or rooted in the desire to not have to moderate and micromanage the content posted from that instance. In that way, both of these are the same decision made on the same grounds.
Hrm, an understandable POV (even though I personally disagree). But then I would also say, what is the alternative? Since a large part of the Fediverse is about everyone running their own custom instance if they want, naturally they're also the one to decide if that place goes down or behaves differently. I wouldn't really know how to truly improve upon this.
BBC is transphobic? Since when?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/b4buJMMiwcg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I'm restating their reasoning. Not speaking firsthand on whether or not they are. Sorry, should have clarified.
What gives you the right to constrain what other people see? Just go ahead and ban them yourself if they offend you so.
I just created this new account because people like you see in themselves the right to constrain what I see.
The people who own a lemmy instance have the right to associate (federate) with whatever other instances meet their guidelines.
If you don't agree, then you are free to join a different lemmy instance that is federated with objectionable material.
You don't have the right to demand that lemmy.one meets your standards. You don't own it.
If you find that no other instance federates with what you want, you're free to make your own, with blackjack, and hookers.
https://youtu.be/e35AQK014tI
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/e35AQK014tI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
that is exactly what I did. I would much rather not associate with people like you. You appear to be horrible people.
My only regret is that I donated to this server.
For example I don't want to listen to you. Go away. Defederate yourself.
You totally have that ability... it's under "Block User".
That was my point.
Congratulation. You are the first user i have blocked.
I'm not in favour of pre-emptive defederating. It feels like censorship doing so and that bothers me.
Their note to their users specifically says to keep their anti establishment opinions and trolling to their own communities and don't spread it further for fear of defederation. It hardly sounds threatening to us.
Defederating can happen at any point, and I think would be better kept as a reactive response and last resort rather than proactive.
The more our large instances start fracturing and closing off from one another the less useful Lemmy will become. You're hardly blocking out an idealogy, if hexbear users wanted in they could just sign up and that would make it harder to find them. At least having them federated makes it easy to filter out @hexbear if we wanted.
Practicing tolerance goes both ways. Calling communities 'them' vs 'us' and judging a group based on the noise of the few doesn't seem like the right approach. If hexbear became a problem and moderators complained of hate speech and conflict then absolutely we use the tools we have to keep things functioning, but filtering out groups because we don't like 'their' belief systems will make us judgemental and biased as a result. This is a platform to promote discussion not an echo chamber to gather like minded opinions and bounce them off each other in perpetuity.
I have lurked here for a long time, but I just don't understand the logic here. I read the statement that was linked here, and it just seemed like they were saying that they should be respectful and follow our rules? ... Isn't dismantling propaganda... through "informed rhetoric" a good thing? Why are NATO, the IMF or World Bank automatically good? ... Aren't we just creating a bubble by preemptively blocking a large lemmy instance just because we don't like their political speech? As far as I can tell they aren't promoting racism or bigotry. Has lemmy.world preemptively banned nazi or right-wing instances?
I have no idea who Hexbear is, but it's well documented how th IMF and World Bank work to endebt developing countries to the US's corporate rule and then steal all their resources... Are we... Not allowed to talk about that here?
Not in favour of this.
I chose Lemmy.world because I wanted an instance that would federate even with people I might disagree with. If it's illegal and abusive, sure. But to defederate on ideological grounds? I was planning a recurring donation but this makes me consider setting up my own instance.
They're welcome to whatever discussions they want to have on their instance. As long as they respect the rules of other instances when they're here, then everybody wins.
As for their point about dismantling western propaganda - if they have documented sources then let's have a conversation. It's not like there isn't western propaganda
okay this is freaking wild:
I'm gonna come out and say, even with the statement, I'm not in favor of preemptive defederation like this.
I know the admins of an instance are hosting us basically out of the goodness of their own hearts, and I appreciate that. And I understand they can do whatever they want, and we can move to a different instance if we want. I get it.
But I joined .world because I wanted a neutral instance that would connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic. Could hexbear be particularly problematic? Sure, maybe. But I think there's a big difference between defederating in response to a problem and defederating in anticipation of a potential problem, especially since the users aren't given a chance to discuss it. Like, I know we're not technically entitled to give our input if we're not admins, but I think it would be nice, y'know?
If it was just some small instance of trolls that's one thing, but hexbear is actually quite a big instance, so this is a very impactful decision. I don't like it being made preemptively behind the scenes like this.
Your desire to "connect with pretty much everyone unless they were particularly problematic" is admirable,. Just remember, please, that the wider the gates are opened, the more idiots wander in and the more work for mods and admins.
After dealing with the first thousand or so idiots, you can smell 'em coming. I'm with the admins on this.
Sure, I'm aware of idiots on the internet, but if we tried to avoid idiots on the site we wouldn't federate with anyone. Lemmy.world is specifically billed as a "generic Lemmy server for everyone to use," I want the gates to be open fairly wide, that's why I'm here. Not for everyone, like I'm glad we defederated with exploding heads, but we still gave them a shot first and there was at least some more community discussion on it before that decision was made. That's what would make me feel a lot better about this.
"Give them a shot first" is easy to say, but it's hours or days of moderators and admins' lives.
They chose to be admins and moderators. Perhaps they should be expected to administrate and moderate.
In another very real sense, their users chose the instance they're on. People were asking at the beginning what the difference between each instance was. This is how the admins have chosen to administrate and moderate. Maybe it's the users who should recognise that the shoe is on the other foot.
Fwiw though, I don't disagree with the choice to defederate.
Avoiding echo chambering (is that a verb?) will take work. Admins and mods should be willing and ready to do that for the health of the fediverse.
Fwiw, I was a reddit mod for a sub of 4.3 million, so I'd like to think I'm not being naive about this, but I could be wrong...
As others have pointed out, the population of the whole fediverse is currently less than a bunch of subreddits with far less than 4.3 million users. Mod/admin energy shouldn't be taken for granted, but people are way overstating the potential for issues.
A game thread on any popular sporting event has way more comments and problems than basically any post in the history of this place.
I would like to start off with apologizing for if this comes off harshly.
I respect that you were a mod for a community that size, but I'm not really sure that I can give that much credit without knowing more. Reddit had all kinds of mods. Good mods, bad mods, sleeping mods, controlling mods, chill mods, etc. Reddit hasn't exactly had much of a great reputation for many of it's mods and admins, you know? I've seen some very bizarre things happen on that website in the past regarding certain mods, to put it one way.
Since this is a different platform with different groundwork, I would imagine that the tools would probably be at least a little bit different. Maybe the mods who used to moderate 24/7 have decided to spend more of their time on their hobbies or with their loved ones. Maybe they are on a different platform. Maybe they got bored of moderating, who knows.
I think that we should make sure that we keep human expectations for people if we want to keep our mods good and happy. I think that that's another way that Reddit really messed up. Reddit's 24/7 pressure to constantly moderate probably led to a lot of mods becoming burnt out. If people try to treat volunteers as employees, they're likely to lose many of those volunteers. I mean, these people are already going our of their way to help contribute.
I have to say, I see a hell of a lot more "other people need to do xy " on this thread, than I see "I think x is missing. I'll help add it!".
Not harsh at all 🤝 I respect your perspective, but I stand by my comment. If we sign up for a job, we should do right by it. Also shameless plug: the community was r/streetwear and you can find us at [email protected]
P.S. feel free to peruse my history on r/streetwear to judge if I was a lazy/crazy mod
Non-federation with a CTH-successor certainly makes running a community on lemmy.world more desirable. Back on reddit, before the bannings about 1/3 of mod actions were from TD users, 1/3 were from CTH users, and the last 1/3 was just randos. It's not like CTH was just a regular sub, they were the source of a lot of moderation.
Is joining hexbear an option for you? It's not like we're obligated to only have one account across the lemmyverse.
Sure, but having fewer accounts is easier: that's the whole purpose of federation in the first place, isn't it?
It's fine now, but I haven't been on Lemmy for that long, and I don't want to have to make a new account every few months to see a new instance.
Maybe "federation" or something like it should actually take place on the client side, so you'd join instances with almost the ease of subscribing to communities. Then the client code would handle combining feeds, using the right credentials to post to a given place, funnelling DM's from multiple instances to a single inbox, etc.
I think if we are here now, the fediverse vision has already failed. Defederation is a last resort yet this is the third round of drama in the 1 month past redditgeddon? Two actual defederations and one extended discussion set off by a single troll on another instance.
So, I think fediverse decentralization hasn't yet gone far enough. Thus the idea of handling instance coordination on the client rather than leaving it up to server admins.
A single login solution is to find a third party that federates with both lemmy.world and hexbear. Hexbear's list is pretty limited so it'd have to be one of those, but unless others follow lemmy.world's choice you'll be able to see and post on both instances.
Well I think this is just the nature fediverse as well. You gotta respect the admin and it’s really not super hard to use multiple logins with different instances via an app.
If Lemmy starts to allow seamless migration of accounts across instances, this will become less of an issue. But I suspect creating multiple accounts isn't going to be palatable to most users.
The more servers we defederate with, the fewer posts will show up in our feeds from everywhere. People aren't going to make an account for everywhere. I'm not particularly sad about this server in particular, but in general the Lemmy.world admin trying to stop people running into content that isn't illegal is annoying and him imposing his ideology on lemmy.world, which paints itself as neutral.
The more servers we defederate with, the fewer posts will show up in our feeds from everywhere. People aren't going to make an account for everywhere. I'm not particularly sad about this server in particular, but in general the Lemmy.world admin trying to stop people running into content that isn't illegal is annoying and him imposing his ideology on lemmy.world, which paints itself as neutral.
You don’t welcome cancer in to your body because you support all life.
Nazis and Russian trolls are not here to debate or inform. Their sole purpose is to degrade trust in democracy, spread propaganda, and other heinous shit.
Defederation is our only defense and we owe it to users to fight hate and lies.
The thing is that kind of example assumes that it is cancer. Which is something I'm not happy assuming yet, especially without discussion.
Hexbear has over 20k users. I find it hard to believe they're all Russian trolls, or even that most of them are.
Unfortunately for you, the userbase of Hexbear is predominantly non-Russian! Ergo, your conclusion is incorrect!
russian trolls aren't necessarily russian... remember that donald trump guy?
Oy vey. Conspiracy theories are against the Code of Conduct! Rule 3. I'll leave you with a warning.
Well, okay, tankie scum. Happy with that label?
Well said.
Admins not bothering with users' thoughts or opinions is what brought us here from Reddit. I wish they would poll us, even informally, before making these kinds of decisions.
A perfectly fair and balanced opinion. It's ultimately up to the admins since they've effective got to clean the mess if it happens, but gauging community sentiment would always be nice
They specifically said they're being trolls and going to brigade tbf.
That first bullet is saying "don't do stuff that's going to get us defederated" to their users, no? It's a bit tongue in cheek but I feel like it's not as aggressive as some people are describing. The whole server came from a subreddit that was very memey/shitpost.
I think their admins are doing an honest job trying to put out reminders for good behavior (**edit: I hadn't originally followed the links to the admin's comments elsewhere, I no longer think they're doing an honest job), the problem is that the sub they grew from never heeded similar admonishments and their federation post explicitly says they will not be moderated for activity outside of hexbear, so it's really just a suggestion, not a rule.
I don't agree with anti-western ideology being a good reason for defederation, but I do expect hexbear to be a major source of trolling from past experience with r/CTH. Reddit post-Donald and post-CTH bans was a noticeably less trolly (NOT saying they're even remotely equivalent, just both were sources of trolling and were banned at the same time).
Wasn’t The_Donald already abandoned by its members before Reddit banned them to make it look like they were being neutral?
Concerning
Seconded
Find another instance? That’s the beauty of the fediverse.
Well yeah, I already said I know that's the go-to if you don't like one instance. But I'd still like to be able to express my opinions before doing that. It's not that big a deal but I'd still ideally rather not, y'know?
The users already made their intentions clear with their instance rules acting as proxy. It’s an aggressive stance and it is not conducive to fair and open conversations about anything.
Well, you picked the wrong instance, then. Lemmy.world never claimed to be neutral. The goals have always been clearly stated, currently here: https://lemmy.world/legal
Well the server is described up at the top as a "generic Lemmy server for everyone to use," which feels like it's setting up to be a pretty neutral stance.
This is exactly the thought process I went through while reading the post. Doing it preemptively can make it come across like you’re severing the connection due to opinions rather than rule breaking.
But still, THANK YOU to the admins, in general. I am not accusing you of anything negative like that. I trust that you thought it through way more than I did. Thanks for keeping this big general insurance of ours awesome.
I get your argument, but I'm with the admins. It's not like a shop keeper closing their doors because they see someone coming with tattoos and a biker jacket. It's more like they're closing their doors because they heard the person saying they make their living shoplifting and they intend to shoplift in that store. Hexbear stated pretty explicitly that they intend to be a problem. No reason to wait for them to do that.
I'm not really seeing it to be honest. That first bullet point there seems pretty clearly saying to their users to not be a problem so that they don't get defederated.
I'm sure you can find someone calling to brigade such and such on there somewhere but they have over 20 thousand users total. That's a lot of people to rule out.
Feels like a pretty big call to look at a place that has 20k users and think they're all trolls and bots. I get that people aren't interested in differing opinions / discourse nowadays, but defederation before even giving it a go feels a little weak.
The message is pretty clear though: be as subversive as possible but don't set off the alarms that will get us defederated. I don't see them telling their users to be good, I see them telling them not to get caught.
There is nothing wrong with following the rules and being "subversive." That is literally just challenging people's ideas.
As always, the limits of tolerance are met when it comes to suggesting we tolerate intolerance. The boundary must be set there.
What the fuck?
I was assured by this server that it has no problem with socialists. This is worse than I expected it to be, I expected a half-hearted attempt to justify this action through means other than "they're socialists and hold socialist views".
To the three points here:
"Western propaganda" - Is capitalist propaganda. Of course socialists oppose it, we oppose capitalism.
"Nato" - An anti-nato position is held by literally every single socialist organisation in Europe. You will not find a socialist org with a pro-nato position. Ffs just look at DiEM25's position on this, it's probably the most well known cross-nation alliance of socialist groups and parties in europe including people like Yanis Varoufakis, Jeremy Corbyn and Zizek to name a few but that really doesn't do the size of the DiEM organising alliance justice. Even Noam Chomsky is anti-nato ffs. What the fuck are you doing acting like this is a fringe position not held by a huge number of people over here in Europe and at the forefront of leftist politics on the continent? Taking the position "you're not allowed to be anti-nato" is blatant american imperialism.
"It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished." - Duh? What the fuck do the liberals running this instance think socialists believe exactly? When Marx calls for revolution do you think that we mean to continue the organisations that existed prior? No, we seek to abolish them and create new socialist organisations that serve the new socialist state we seek to create.
Absolutely mindblowing that this instance ever pretended it was going to play nicely with socialists. I'm disgusted.
Every single take above is also the take you will get from every single socialist community over on reddit. The anarchist communities will also even have an anti-nato position. Like jesus christ. I expected this post to be bad but I didn't expect it to be "Yeah fuck socialists, oh and fuck what anarchists believe too".
I'm flabbergasted that @[email protected] just completely lied about not intending to block based on ideology, and it's extremely telling that Hexbear gets a pre-emptive defederation for this shit while literal actual nazis were a chore to get defederated.
Why is it wrong to be critical of western propaganda?
Gotta say, pre-emptive defederation seems like a bit of an over reaction. There's plenty of leftists in other instances, not just hexbear and lemmygrad. Hell, I'm an anarchist that regularly comments on political/social threads in this instance, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Lemmy in general is pretty obviously far left leaning. I don't see the harm in federating with hexbear, unless they show themselves to be actively harassing or trolling. But you'd have to federate first to find out if they will
Personally, I'd rather just block the stuff I don't like rather than have lemmy.world trying to decide "who's worthy of federation".
What have they actually done?
I'm all for defederating from instances that cause problems but all the quotes above basically seem to say, "I know you want a revolution but you still gotta follow the rules of whatever instance you're posting on."
It's your server so your under no obligation to provide a reason for defederating beyond disagreeing with them but it leaves me wondering if there's anything else or if it's just a matter of disliking them?
Good. I commented earlier about how horrible hexbear was. I signed up for hexbear, hoping to meet leftists, but these are not leftists. They just parrot Chinese/Russian propaganda. They have no original takes, no critical thinking. Call me whatever, but, I'm pro NATO. I don't give a shit about what bullshit propaganda you show me from a totalitarian regime. If the U.S. is bad, then the CCP is pure evil.
??
I just think it's funny how exploding heads took lots of polling and hand wringing before defederation and socialists get defederated on sight. I also think we should add "This is an expressly pro-NATO instance" to the front page, so people realize this before they make an account here.
Too bad this instance won't approach federation with Threads in the same manner; I don't think any positive outcomes could be expected from their behavior either.
I don't mind what the servers admins need to do. But please don't take quotes out of context.
“With the cumulative updates Users may show/hide avatars, show/hide scores, show/hide NSFW content, show/hide read posts, show/hide notifications for new posts, block users, block communities, report direct messages, mods can distinguish a comment to sticky it to the top of a post. Users may set their feed in their account settings to determine if the default feed is local (hexbear.net only), subscribed (user subscribed communities only), or all (all posts on unblocked communities on federated instances).
Hello users of Hexbear in the next couple of weeks (exact date will most likely be somewhere around the 5th of August) we will be taking the site down for approximately three hours to update to lemmy 0.18.3 and begin federation., as we prepare for federation we wanted to create a primer for etiquette when engaging in the fediverse.
Please read and respect the rules of the community instance in which you are posting/commenting. Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated. Realize that you are a representative of the hexbear instance when you post on other instances.
Know that your posts, comments, and DMs involving communities/users of other instances are stored on those instances databases, while delete requests are sent there is no guarantee they will be honored, especially if a different platform is involved (mastodon, etc).
In addition, a reminder that you may set your feed or search to local/subscribed/all and block users/communities to have a greater control over what content you have. Local is Hexbear only, subscribed is communities from hexbear and federated instances that you have specifically subscribed to, and All is hexbear + all federated instances. There will be a pinned post in the !hexbear community where you can nominate instances for our allow-list or block-list.
In closing, I want to remind everyone that the moderation policy of Hexbear communities will not change and will be strictly applied to any users from a federated instance. While we are not responsible for moderation policy of remote communities our admins do see reports you make of posts/comments on federated instances, and we are able to remove them, while not actually deleting the post/comment it does hide it so Hexbear users cannot see/interact with it.”
As a leftist can I just say how cringe it is to treat "fighting liberalism on the fediverse" like it's activism? Go outside.
IDK, I don't think this is the right move at all... The announcement post and the comments you pointed out were cherry-picked and misinterpreted. They are an ideological instance. You wouldn't say
blahaj.zoneis trying to "spread" LGBTQ+ "ideas". They're just a specifically queer instance.Everything Hexbear said was, the way I read it, in the direction of "let's behave and be good with the federation". I think you're just confounding your own ideologies, and the way you think things should be done, with what the community at large wants.
That being said, IDC that much, but I do disagree.
PS: Posting from my
lemm.eeaccount because this post doesn't show up on mylemmy.worldaccount for some reason.For the sake of absolute transparency, and clarity, would you mind specifying exactly what rules would be violated if Hexbear were to be allowed to federate with Lemmy.world?
This is a rather assumptive statement. You can only guess that this would happen, and have no tangible proof that it actually would -- the previous quotes that you provided outline your ideological differences, and not proof of conspiracy. You leave out the fact that in the Hexbear post that you linked they are telling their users to behave on other instances. In the quotes that you provided, you, quite conveniently, left out some important contextual information which changes the perceived intent -- the full version of the quotes that you pulled is as follows:
While, yes, I agree that this is a rather uncouth way to word an official statement to the members of an instance, it shows quite the opposite for intent to spread harm to other instances.
Your point here makes little sense to me. If anything, the examples that you just provided state otherwise. These quotes do not prove intent to cause harm on other instances through rule breaking. Your argument seems to be founded purely on an ideological difference.
I have no issue at all with defederating with an instance if they are obviously harmful to the fediverse on the whole -- instances that promote spam, trolling, brigading, etc; however, hexbear, from what I see in the linked official post, shows no evidence of such intent. All I see is difference in ideology.
I echo the dissatisfaction people have with this and won't be donating again. This is Lemmy.world not Lemmy.(we need a safe space from the communists)
The fact you were upset about Beehaw's defederation but then turn around and do this is massive hypocrisy.
This is you imposing your personal ideology on your users. The fact you lead with those 3 "concerning statements" tells us everything. You only like free speech when it aligns with your own beliefs.
Shame.
Defederating instances on ideological grounds isn't a bad idea IMHO, and I can see why people might not want their feeds to end up full of people who just sort of assume that what we're here to do is use facts and logic to destroy western propaganda, with the goal of bringing about the downfall of the International Monetary Fund. That sounds like an extremely tiring project to be involved in; you wouldn't want to hang out with somebody who does that in every thread.
But I think it's important for the reason here to be that Hexbear is embarking on a project of ideological warfare. Not that the community consensus there is that the IMF is a bad idea. A load of communists is probably fine, while a load of evangelical communists determined to exactly follow the letter of every rule while maximizing the amount that they can evangelize is probably not fine.
This is entirely reasonable to me. I don't believe there is any good reason to federate with instances that are intending to astroturf, censore dissenting information, and peddle propoganda. You can see their vote brigading in a post on c/fediverse discussing this situation.
Federating with such instances does more harm than good, providing an audience for propoganda aimed at fomenting extreme perspectives thru deviant misinformation and content/narrative control.
Creating those kind of fringe echo-chamer instances is how we end up with toxic and extreme groups like SRS and incels or the donald (on reddit). They can even start out as satire and then quickly devolve into toxic hate.
The argument that we want a diverse fediverse doesn't mean that we should federate with toxic instances with bad intentions. That's not the kind of diversity that we should be promoting. That's the kind of toxic userbase that should be quarantined...
Hexbear disabled downvoting because it was being used by transphobes to bully trans users. They'd wait for a trans user to post and then pile on with downvotes so that their comments would always begin in the negative.
lemmy.world can't even be bothered to ban transphobes.
Sorry brother, the hive mind detected wrongthink and you have been punished for it.
Absolutely nothing. Hypocrites simply cannot stand being reminded of what they are.
You summed a lot of their points up into one blunt sentence, which also implies that you were not actually looking for discussion here.
Comments like this are almost like a different flavour of a downvote.
Your comment had no counter arguments, no questions, no sources or reasonings, no related points, but instead it's just a very shortened "quote" of what you were responding to.
Your comment also didn't really actually add anything to the discussion other than showing that you think of that person's comment negatively, just like a downvote would have shown.
Irony, imo.
What you said wrong was provide a false equivalent.
Protecting users from toxic instances is not a bad thing, and is not counterintuitive to producing a healthy and diverse fediverse.
Whereas lemmy.world allows criticism of all governments and governing styles. The only anti-free speech instance in this discussion is hexbear.
I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased, being a poster over on chapo.chat (or Hexbear as it's now [embarrassingly] called), but I hope those of you who support decision can at least understand how frustrating the purported justification is. The notion that hexbear has a consistent ideology to push beyond general amorphic leftism doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, so in the end the decision to defederate just comes down to "these people have opinions".
I don't have any idea of who they are, but I don't get it: we're not preemptively defederating from Meta because it would be closed minded to do so (as per your admin decision), while Meta bad behavior is well documented (they've been fined by EU several times already), and we want to preemptively defederate from these people without even knowing how they will actually behave? Why? Shouldn't they be "innocent until proven guilty"?
Sorry, but talking against NATO means violating lemmy.world rules? What the hell, I’m out of here.
wait, so it really is just ideological? Like, y'all don't ban users who come into lemmygrad to specifically troll communists on ideological grounds, but when hexbear tells its users to engage in good faith you defed them? what the hell?
Edit: Like honestly this is kinda gross, they specifcally try and smooth things out and make things easier for your admins so you don't have to deal with a flood of hexbear users spamming PPB everywhere and you just use it as evidence to defederate lol
This is what we call an unfalsifiable orthodoxy.
Disappointing as fuck. You're defedarating based on ideological differences and a guess that they won't engage in good faith? And you're reaching that paltry conclusion after cherry picking posts?
Not to mention the posts you've shared aren't bad at all? They're literally asking their users to engage properly in a civil manner.
Big yikes man.
I don’t really have a problem with the main post you linked to. Are we a strictly pro-NATO server or something? I think I’m missing exactly what the issue is 🤷♂️
Being in favor or support of the status quo is also pushing an ideology.
So communists are not welcome on lemmy.world or what? What even is a Hexbear? How different is this move from when Elon decided to reinstate every banned account apart from Alex Jones'? How thin is the skin of lemmy.world mods? What's the point of censorship on this platform? I can go to Reddit and Twitter if I want protection from communist ideologies??
Taking a glance at Hexbear, it looks ridiculously juvenile.
Doesn't feel like it merits pre-emptive defederation, though.
So preemptively defederating from Meta (literally Evil Corp, that backed genocide and fascism) is not okey, but doing the same with communists is.
I'm starting to get a feel of what Lemmy World really is.
I'm a bit new to the fediverse and I came to lemmy.world because it's one of the big ones and thought it would be "neutral". But nothing quoted in this post seems dangerous or against the rules ? You don't even explain what rules they are supposedly breaking ? It's weird that the admins posted this thinking "people will understand". All you are saying is "these people are from the left", we don't like them.
You should clearly states in your rules/description that you are a neoliberal instance and contradictory opinions will be squashed.
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of hexbear.net, or a fellow traveler?"
What a disappointingly reactionary approach to federation.
Not a big fan of cherry-picking posts and comments to pre-emptively defederate because of opposing ideals.
This opinion comes from knowing nothing at all about hexbear prior to this post.
preemptively hitting my last resort button
How is the second statement problematic? It is a fact, that is largely documented in academia and many movements everywhere in the world. Disappointing decision....
As one authoritarian admin to another, I applaud you on the use of unilateral decision-making without any input from your mods or user base.
If this was a specific-purpose non-politics instance like many are, I'd say power to you. But for an general-purpose instance that advertises itself as being:
...then there's a need for some serious self-examination. Preemptively blocking thousands of users, and talking about blocking another long-lasting substantial community because some other community made comments about them? This is disappointing, this does not sound properly thought-out.
You're right, defederation should only be considered as a last resort. Not as a broad-spectrum discriminatory first action.
I'm not sure where "global communism" and "fascist state headed by Vladimir Putin" intersect, but it sure ain't anywhere sane. Defederation from the Lemmygrad school of insanity seems like a grand old time.
It’s more like “the enemy of my enemy is a friend.” We don’t love the Russian Federation and would rather the Soviet Union still existed.
The reason we have critical support to Russia at all is because the United States empire throws a coup in your country any time you go against their interests (see Euromaidan in Ukraine).
Think of it like how the US and the Soviet Union were temporarily allied to fight the common enemy of the Nazis.
Still doesn't make a lot of sense to me, nor to a lot of other people. Ukraine doesn't have the right to decide their country wants to join NATO? Russia wants oil or a buffer so innocent Ukrainian citizens get to die? It's not innocent Russians dying, because they are the aggressor in this case. They are being the US here, like the US was in Iraq. They interfere in just as many elections, have oligarchs, so much corruption, etc. But because they're not the West, they're the good guys?
But while I still don't agree with that lemmygrad's strange, hypocritical takes, I still don't agree with defederating (with them or hexbear). Defederating should be a last resort in my opinion.I don't want echo chambers. Talk to people or ban the troublesome ones. Hopefully improved mod tools released one day helps with all this defederating.
NATO doesn’t even want Ukraine remember? Then they’d have to actually contribute to the war more than letting it be fought to the last Ukrainian.
We don’t want more dead Ukrainians. If you’d like to hear our take, go check it out.
The US is involved in this situation — are you sure the US isn’t being the US here?
Agreed, I’m glad Lemmygrad doesn’t defederate Lemmy.world despite how tempting that must be sometimes to our admins.
Ahh yep there's the pro-Russian opinion.
"Stop giving arms to Ukraine so we can invade without killing so many of them, or them killing so many of us".
Fuck off, invader apologists.
On one hand, imperialistic hyperliberalism. On the other hand, imperialistic fascism.
A fascist and a "critically supportive communist" at a table is two fascists at a table. You get the bullet.
Don’t support fascism.
I’m new to this communism thing. As far as I’m aware, I’m a communist because I actually do want a better world.
If you’re talking about the Russian Federation, I certainly don’t think they’re still socialist. The word critical in critical support does heavy lifting here. I want a communist government, not the Russian Federation government, and I’m happy to criticize them. Can you please explain how the Russian Federation is fascist though?
As an aside, in my previous example, do you think the USA got along great with the USSR after World War 2 even though they had been fighting together?
If you want to see revolutionary consciousness developed, then why exactly am I deeply evil and need to be murdered?
I'm from lemmy.ml, so I shouldn't really have a say in this matter, but I just wanted to give some of my thoughts.
There's no problem in defederating from instances. However, I'm a bit confused by the reasoning given for the defederation. The points highlighted appear to simply be some normal leftist and anti-imperialist ideas, and I fail to see how it signifies intent to violate the rules of the lemmy.world instance (besides maybe point 7, if we were to consider supporting governments deemed "authoritarian" by the west as also being the same as calling for the opression for the people those governments are accused of oppressing (Which I don't believe is valid reason since that's simply not the case. For example, people who reject the idea that there is a campaign against the uyghur ethnic group in China, generally don't do so because they hate that ethnic group, but because they believe the claims are false)).
If leftist instances such as hexbear are problematic, I don't see why instances like lemmy.ml aren't, whose description some time ago was the following:
Some time ago they removed the word «leftist» in the description, but very much still allow people who hold similar beliefs as the ones you highlighted to use the instance and to express themselves.
What a spez move. Pre-emptively de-federating is just a bad move, no other way to look at it. They're a very diverse group and generally much kinder than most lemmy users. At the very least you should've tested federation for a day or two to see how the interactions play out. But anybody here can go over there and see for themself how nice they can be even when disagreeing, which they do a lot among themselves.
Also where in the Code of Conduct does it say the only ideology allowed is liberalism? Going the way of Reddit with vague justifications and arbitrary decisions will make the administration a lot of profit some day, but there's a reason people left that one.
That's pro Putin propaganda, not leftist politics.
Yeah, it seems like we're now losing out on 20k people to interact with which seems a shame.
I mean, I haven't been banned yet, and theres plenty of tankies floating around. Lemmy.world is pretty lax as I can tell.
You must not have seen the post in question.
The entire thing was directly, openly planning to go to other instances and intentionally disrupt them. Idgaf what their beliefs are, you get defederated for that. It's bullshit.
Seriously, go wade through the comments over there. They're gederating specifically to fuck up everyone else.
You have been proven wrong by quotes and logic!
Literally a commenter on one of the linked posts:
Edit to say: I support the defederation.
This single user's plan does even involve using Hexbear. Lemmy.world would have to defederate from all other instances to prevent this person from trolling.
Did you look at the posts? It’s all over the comments! Would you like some more examples for your edification?
i dont like extremists on my feed, good work
Ok, I'm out of here. This is my last post on lemmy.world. I created a new account in a server that (hopefully) does not use defederation for political reasons.
I'm just sorry that I donated here.
Well this is unfortunate. Seems like a mistake tbh. 20k people is a huge loss.
I'll have to make alt accounts soon if account migration isn't a feature.
edit: This is reminding me of when people were calling Lemmy Devs 'tankues'. Are we being sabotaged again?
As an instance owner myself some of this is concerning. I understand why lemmy.world would want to defederate from them. I won't defederate on my instance at this point, but if personal attacks start to happen or rules get broken, then it will be considered.
This i feel is the best take for most instance owners. Wait, watch and react. Good to keep federation going until you actually observe them participating in bad faith
I’ve watched this song and dance, and participated in it, for decades. Putting up with gross people because they might feel like being decent is just delaying an ever escalatingly divisive and inevitable bandaid pull. Saw it with voat freezepeach, saw it with trump freezepeach, saw it with several hateful freezepeach sites. The lemmy.world admins did the right thing.
Let me ask you a question: if an instance popped up that said their purpose was to collect child porn, would you wait until you saw some child porn before defederating? What about something more mild, like if their mission was to dox and harass climate activists?
I think the exception to defederating being a last resort is when you have an instance that says upfront that they are going to be a problem. In that case, I think we should believe them.
my jaw just dropped did you just compare a socialist instance to CSAM and doxers bahahahaha
That's such a tired style of argument. No, I didn't draw any equivalency between them. I made an analogy that was further on the spectrum to make a philosophical point. And then I picked another analogy that I clearly pointed out was way more mild. What's your answer to the question? When someone says they're going to do something bad, do you just stand there and wait for them to do it?
they're both shit analogies is my point, why even start with CSAM and nothing hexbear does or would do is close to doxing. Their admins aren't encouraging brigading and I would be surprised if you could even find 5 comments actually encouraging that in the federation post (and no, saying that you must dunk on the libs with me comrades!!! type posts are not threats to brigade, they're jokes lol)
"it was just a joke, bro" has never convinced anyone.
Your post history is a pretty good indicator that lemmygrad should be next up on for defederation. Additionally, it was pretty easy to find a comment on one of your posts calling for violence. Upvoted, of course.
link it then. I'm not seeing anything in my first couple pages of comments... Unless you meant the death to America comment?
And yes, when people are making jokes amongst themselves they do get to say it's a joke, it wasn't meant for you???
https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/570166
Quote:
People can have different opinions on topics mate. This whole "one user said XYZ I don't like, we should defederate" needs to end.
One user advocated for violence, the comment is upvoted, and it's a top level comment on a post the guy I responded to posted, so I can be reasonably sure he saw it. So, the options we have in front of us are that he did the right thing and reported it, but the mods/admins didn't act, or he saw it and didn't report it.
Which one screams "we want these people to be federated with us"?
It is NOT one user.
It is this kind of back and forth we would be having if we didn't defederate. It's tiring.
I've defederated from lemmynsfw.com because someone subscribed to them and I saw the pornography on my instance and that is against one of the site rules. The same would be said for any other pornography or breaking of site rules no matter where it came from. At this point though, hexabear have not harassed anybody on my instance or broken any of the site rules, so there is no basis to defederate them. If that does happen, then a decision will be made.
Hexbear is for left-unity and has users that range from all spectrums of the left. The clear message here is, if your on the left, lemmy.world is not the place for you. If you support the free exchange of ideas, lemmy.world is not the place for you. The mods couldn’t even be bothered to lie about which rules hexbear users were supposedly going to violate.
People are way too quick to defederate. Let the users use the platform and ban them if they break rules. Arguing isn't against the rules as far as I'm aware as long as it's in the right threads. You think this is going to keep users out? No its just going to drive then to another instance
a last resort. preemptively defederate
a last resort. preemptively defederate
a last resort. preemptively defederate
a last resort. preemptively defederate
I guess lemmy.world really is like reddit.
Oooh let the spicy fedi instance drama begin. The best part of decentralization!
Loving all the hexbear alt-accounts in the comments here ❤
Btw, if people didnt understand this. I AM being ironical...
Not a lemmy.world user, so just sharing my thoughts/ideas on this at a general level
I appreciate the thought that went into this decision and I think this is an example of defederating being a good idea.
Ok. It’s been nice. I’ll find a new instance.
These comments are wild. At the end of the day, if we really dislike the actions of our instance, we can just change to a different one, or self host. Does it suck? Yes.
I don't think I can reasonably expect someone else to tailor their own instance that they created and paid for to my specific interests. A previous instance wasn't to my liking, so I just made a new account somewhere else. Isn't that supposed to be the whole point?
"If everyone defederates with everyone there will be no content". Well, it's a good thing that it's not everyone defederating with everyone.
I think that maybe the people who are really upset about defederating should try to host their own instances and act as admins for those instances. I totally understand wanting to do your own thing with the amount of time and effort that stuff requires.
Personally? I'm still pleasantly suprised/happy that so many people have created instances that they opened to the world. I also feel lucky that people are putting in a lot of effort to make places that anyone -even complete strangers- could join. I'm happy that there are a wide variety of instances.
Well these are totally true and the decision quite disappointing.
I read this mostly like "they seem like a bunch of assholes so we're defederating so we don't have to interact with a bunch of assholes". Cause the folks on Hexbear seem intense compared to lemmygrad, etc. I know it's really the anti-NATO stuff, but eh.
I don't like not getting content though, so I'm really not in favor of this move. But I'm also an ex-redditor who liked to lurk communities I don't agree with since it's not like the comments are going to jump out and get you. (Of course, as an American I think I get hit by more far right than far left, though they agree on some of the weirdest conspiracy shit sometimes).
Also it's not like I can't have multiple accounts across the fediverse, lol.
I think it's important to make note of the fact that they were banned on Reddit for good reason. As a community, they have always been toxic and would consistently brigade and harass other communities on Reddit that even remotely disagreed with them on anything. There was a consistent issue in Jewish focused Reddit subs with users of theirs starting fights about Zionism on random Jewish posts and generally harassing to random people that would be remotely critical of communism. They would behave in a similar way to how exploding-heads did prior to being mass defederated, specifically going into threads and brigading/downvoting and attempting to sway discussions in their favor in bad faith.
You are defederating from Hexbear because you don't want people in lemmy.world to see opinions you disagree with?
Honestly, I don't mind this considering the examples given.
Ignoring the fact that most complaining here are likely members of that instance, I don't understand users' insistence that they shouldn't be defederated. Are most ignoring the numerous examples of Reddit subs users inferred "likely won't be a big deal" becoming obviously problematic down the line, with the inevitable ban/quarantine occuring with most upset it wasn't dealt with from the start?
😞 adding another 119,000 names to the black book of communism
I am also unsure about lemmygrad, as although I dislike the instance, (and a few parts of db0 as well) I do agree with defederation being an extreme option. ::: spoiler unrelated note I am concerned about the defederation system as a whole, as an instance could defederate with all but the most extreme left/right wing instances, causing an extreme echo chamber to develop. (albeit only on lemmy) :::
Edit: Nevermind, I looked into it more and I support defederating Lemmygrad.
What is it with Lemmy and far-[left | right] politics...
As you know, I'm anti-defed. But in this instance I'm with admins. Hexbear is a cesspool for genocidal lunatics.
Also, you linked a post from a year ago, from a user who hasn't even posted in a year? are you serious?
It's always difficult. On the one hand it's not great to de-federate based on political opinion. After all, I'd have no issues with these people posting memes and other content, adding non-political insight in non-political communities, and even discussing politics in political communities. An echo chamber doesn't really help anyone after all. However, these people seem to actively look down on anyone even slightly more right wing as them, and as shown in the examples they also seem likely to aggressively push their views in places where that would not be appreciated. To me defederation seems like the good call, at least temporarily, to ensure that moderators won't have their hands full. But it would be nice to see at least attempts to federate with these extremists, just to give them a chance to play nice. It would be better in the grand scheme of the fediverse to keep things as connected as possible and to avoid echo chambers.
Judging by their responses in this thread it sounds like you made the right move, go back to /b/ crybabies
I guess I'm back at join-lemmy.org to find a new instance. Any recommendations?
Not a fan of this defederation - I wanted to at least have fun dunking on them
There's a difference between liberal left (which is what a majority of rational, secular people belive in), honest far-left, which is about socialist economics, eat the rich, BLM/anti-racism, anti-cop, gender abolition, human rights, actual anti-colonialism etc. and the kind of "far-left" that is "anti-west", which isn't really about honestly discussing these issues, but rather about dividing people, being contrarian to established things that work and make sense, and trying to paint everyone who disagrees even a tiny bit as the scum of humanity. On the other hand, any defederation further enlarges the rift between communities and makes being informed on what others think more cumbersome. Also, they think Beehaw, a place that is supposed to be inclusive, is fascist? I am not sure how it is. It's mostly left and liberal, really.
y'all are incredibly embarassing
I respect the autonomy of you admins to federate with who you choose, but as a user, I would prefer not to defederate, and let the votes moderate their 'contributions'. And, of course, defederate if there are too many rule breakers and/or bots. But I also realize the potential hassle this could pose for you admins, so I sympathize with your decision even if I'm not in complete agreement.
Lemmy.world, you are positively glowing right now :3
It never ceases to amaze me how threatened liberals are by tiny groups of commies. And of course, the fact that a bunch of liberals are busy denigrating the very commies that made their migration away from capitalist Reddit possible in the first place is, unfortunately, very par for the course for liberals.
Wow, I've been on lemmy for a month after Sync died and now I'm already seeing the start of its demise. I haven't heard of Hexbear before and don't really have interest in it, but pre-emptive defeterating is a bit much. I don't think it's good for the fediverse either. It'll probably end up renamed to clique - verse.
You are being illogical. You claim that Hexbear will not respect instance rules, yet the linked post on Hexbear has their admins explicitly begging their users to respect other servers' rules. The truth is that you do not want a large quantity of users with heterodox opinions mingling with your own. This is why you block Hexbear but not the smaller Lemmygrad. Instead, I suggest you add to your Code of Conduct that lemmy.world is an anti-communist server and will not tolerate Marxist-Leninists. That way you will no longer be hypocritical, and you will probably also make a lot of your users happy!
edit: I see I am being downvoted - clearly by Leninists angry that I suggest a divorce! However, your emotions will not silence my pure logic!
I don’t think it’s the opinions, I think it’s the users’ literal stated plans to harass users of other instances.
Users can be banned, and if it's a persistent and draining issue for admins after a couple weeks then defederation would actually be understandable.
Defederation is happening based on Hexbear's potential comments and behavior when there are some absolutely unhinged lemmyworld comments in this very thread.
But it's Hexbear that "wants to be douches."
Gotta say I'm not surprised that the admins of a "nuetral" instance preemptively ban a socialist instance that's telling its users to follow the rules on other instances while it dragged its feet to ban a nazi instance which was actually causing problems.
Signed,
Hexbear user since inception
Good call
Steve Huffman commends you on upholding his moderation policy.
Defederation/Banning in the name of containing "different viewpoints" is just Reddit all over again
Right, so because a community has different views than the leftists you all think it's your place to "protect" users preemptively without discussion or reason, basically fucking worse than Reddit?
You'd better think long and hard on that.
This is too quick of a movement towards defederation. Except in the most extreme of circumstances, it should be up to individual users whether they want to engage with other communities, and users can always block communities they find objectionable. It is not in the best interest of users to treat them as being incapable of making their own reasoned decisions about this kind of thing.
Fortunately, thanks to the wonders of the fediverse, I can just make a new account on a different instance and start engaging with Lemmy that way. Anyone have any recommendations on alternatives to lemmy.world?
L.
And that's why I'm glad my main accounts are not on world, which has just been a different flavored, smaller Reddit since its inception.
Ffs! This going to be an Enlightened Centrist instance?
It's one thing to defederate from an anti-imperialist instance that's specifically intended for trolling including with coordinated bot attacks, but another to shun one of the biggest instances on Lemmy just because you disagree with their ideology!
I'm not a fan of tankies myself (especially since they're hypocrites who would denounce western imperialism in one sentence and defend USSR/Christofascist current Russia imperialism in the next, but IMO, defederating from them reeks of censorship of ideas rather than consequences of/defence against actions.
Politics ruining everything again
We really should have a method of banning remote individual users from your own instance. I'm as anti tankie as they come, but defederating isn't the answer. It's just continually shrinking and sharding the fediverse in a way that will hinder our growth.
I would like to thank everyone who came to lemmy.world and ended up recreating Reddit, warts and all. Looking forward to your announcement to kill 3rd party apps next week.
Their instance also seems to be offline.
The URL is https://hexbear.net. They haven’t federated yet.
They have a point. But as a Filipino who's very concerned about a possible Chinese invasion (though I live far down south so my main concerns are whether Mindanao regions' budgets can handle all the Taiwanese refugees and movers from Luzon) I'm very skeptical of their actual agenda.
You guys really just want people who think the same way as you on your instance. You should clearly state that instead of letting people waste their time here.
these people really crossing the line between "ideology" and mental illness.
Is it not possible we just have a social media platform where we talk abouts hobbies and computers and not evangelise our political beliefs?
I don't think this is the right way to go if another Server advice's its users to engage with everybody else on the fediverse in the best manner. The point here picked only seem to reflect the world views of the admin which cant be discussed or challenged. I guess this is fine because everybody can search for another server but if the server team here cares about its users opinions I'd like to voice my disagreement and would love to have this decision maybe put up to a vote / test period or something similar. Even If I will switch to another instance, thank you for providing this server.
Curious to me how when I look at this post on other instances, other comments seem to be on top. Not sure if that's a side effect of the DDOS shit or if it's a really great example of the version of Lemmy you see from one instance is different than you see from another.
Stopping by this thread to offer a window into the Hexbear response to this statement. This thread is all serious and miserable, but we're having a great time over there laughing about all of this and dunking on the worst of the comments.
Edit: Oh and also here and here.
PS: I am absolutely loving the downvoting, it's hilariously cute; I legit can't stop giggling right now
I'd love to see Lemmygrad cut off, it's full of propaganda and malicious users.
Lemmy is a bit shit, isn't it. That's a shame.
If opposition to Western propaganda and Western imperialism is against your rules, it's certainly your right to defederate. I made the right choice jumping ship from .world back when you refused to preemptively defederate from Threads!
I don't understand why Lemmy is constructed in a manner where instances are automatically federated with other instances by default. Wouldn't it make more sense, from a security standpoint, to change that so instances are automatically defederated with all other instances by default?
Thats like creating a new social media account where you are automatically friends with everyone else, and you have to selectively remove people as they become problems.
On the one hand defederating from an instance based on their ideology is probably not the best precedent to set,
On the other, they're tankies who've ate up the state capitalist and red fascist propaganda hook, line, and sinker and are trying to associate themselves with leftism, making the rest of us look bad. (If I were more conspiracy minded I'd say that this is an intentional attempt to discredit leftist politics.) So really I think it balances out. Personally I'd rather users be able to block whole instances, instead of having admins make that decision, but seeing as that's not available this is the next best thing.
sounds like something run by Russian intelligence
Indeed, they even use Moscow time!
How dare people operate in that time zone! Russian civilians should all adopt western time and speak English! 🙄
Lol. The actual reason they use it is they needed a standard time and thought it would be the funniest one considering the Allegations™
Source?
Based move
Good. Fuck tankies, lmao
Then go back to hexbear. The best thing about the fediverse is having a choice if you don't like the way an instance is run.
You're clearly not able to be an adult about things. If you're taking as me being a jerk, you're wrong. I'll say it again, the best thing about the fediverse is being able to choose where we want. Take it as you want, but if you can take a stance, so can I and definitely the admins.
Stop with the aggression and projection. You started with name calling and being hostile. I just reminded you of an option. You're the one being aggressive. You need to get a grip.
Find an instance to federate with it.
Because you have that option that’s why. You don’t like it? Find somewhere else. This isn’t Reddit where you’re stuck by the hands of the mods and admins.
There’s a difference between ideology and Russian bot farms spreading garbage.
The only one being aggressive is you. I’m just explaining how this works.
That's the beauty of the Fediverse. Read this page: https://lemmy.world/legal. If you don't agree with it, feel free to find an instance that suits your need.
The irony! It burns! The goggles do nothing!
Then next time you do the same just downvote the post and move on.
good decision. do not want the red fash to spread to other instances
Good shit admins. Tankies gonna tankie, but I'm glad they aren't going to tankie here.
Hahaha lemmy world.
Too left, you never be right. Block everything that is not left, eh?
So they are a bunch of brigading hardcore ideologists that want to convert others. Now I know why they were banned from my instance from the very beginning. Good for you guys that you acted before it got a wider problem in the first place.
It's interesting how much right wingers and fake communists hate the "libs".
Anyone can see that liberalism is inherently more aligned with leftist/communist/anarchist properties and cannot exist under capitalism.
Hexbear servers gonna see some Ukrainian drones into the window soon.