I am a very liberal person and I have very liberal children, except for one. I'm pretty sure my Gen Z son has been taken in by fascist doctrine. What can I get him for Christmas?
Not only that, but the hatred on the right will consume them. Sit back, lay low, don't participate and let the fools burn themselves. Opposition will only give them targets to blame for their failures.
Being conservative depends on you being fearful rather than empathic. The fast way to get people to turn from conservatism is promoting behavior that is focused on doing good for others and providing an environment where someone might not have as much external stressors triggering a fear response.
Love conquers all? This isn't a Hallmark movie, yo. Have a chat after Xmas. If you have the presence of mind to see your kids supporting shit we literally fought wars over, you don't pat them on the head and say "ah it'll be fine".
Ignore all the joke answers here. It seems insensitive given the subject matter.
He's probably lonely and feeling left out. If he has siblings it's all the more likely.
I was an alienated teenager who was in a place similar to your son I think. I eventually realized I and many others we're being used to further the agenda of some unsavory fucks who wanted to send us back to the 1860's.
Try to show him how much he means to you. Let him know you care about him. Just don't drive him away, Show some love and compassion and he'll realize he's drinking the kool-aid eventually I think. Hope this helps, good luck!
Also, should work with him emphasizing that politics isn't really about having a party but before that, having an ethos. At the end of the day you need to evaluate how your ethos aligns with the parties actions, not ideas. I can't believe anyone today is conservative as I had once known them because I know the GOPs actions align only with obtaining power. Unless your ethos is "fuck you i got mine" the GOP offers you nothing. Which also means that you've already got yours. Which, looking at conservatives, I have my doubts. And if they don't have theirs, well then it's just, "fuck you." Which I can understand why a teenager would feel that way.
Barry Goldwater wouldn't recognize what his party has become. He tried to warn them. He pretty much predicted the rise of Christian nationalism.
"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." - Barry Goldwater
I know almost zero about berry goldwater but know with a stark certainly you will never catch a current conservative saying anything like that. To think, goldwater was probably as prominent a figure as john mccain.
He was the Republican presidential candidate in 1964. He ran against Lyndon B. Johnson. He was a very well respected man in the party. I'm not going to pretend he's the greatest politician of all time. I definitely have ideological differences but I respect him for what he fought for.
A plane ticket. Others have suggested he's bored and I concur. IMO, he needs to be intellectually challenged while simultaneously having his fears assuaged. Fear, I believe, is a key driver in pushing people toward fascist ideologies. Most likely he fears not being loved.
Traveling to countries with very different cultures can be both stimulating and reassuring, especially if it involves some significant challenge - a physical one like climbing a significant peak or somewhere that's just super hard to get to. You can demonstrate that you love and care for him by going with him. Just the two of you.
Fear is a key driver (period). I just heard this on the radio. They analyzed what pulls people in and it's fear. Fear also keeps people lingering longer. I didn't hear enough to explain it (I got to my destination before the show was over). Putting it together with other things I've heard, the algorithms that are tuned to keep people engaged on the site skill natually choose things that stoke fear and that is probably the same thing that the facist propaganda is promoting, too.
While cooking classes might be nice, I would think for someone who is suspected of falling into the fascist sphere of influence that masculinity is more than likely highly emphasized so they would more than likely be offended by the thought of cooking.
Although if you could frame it in a masculine sense like barbeque then maybe you could get somewhere. I don't know if there are specific group barbeque classes though lol
This is a really interesting cultural one that always kinda surprises me.
Where I am, cooking has always been a very masculine thing. Cutting up meat with sharp knives, setting things on fire, etc. The chef industry here is very male dominated and men cook together as a social thing when hanging out. In most families I encounter, the dad does most of the cooking with the exception of maybe baking? It's weird to hear that it would ever be thought of as insufficiently masculine.
In fact I think it would be seen as maybe a bit embarrassing/weak if you were a man who couldn't cook.
To be honest, my shithead US centric mindset kicked in there. OP never mentioned being from the US, but the rise of fascism has been a major focus as of late so I assumed they were.
It's good to know other countries are more sensible and don't share our stupid concept of masculinity being degraded by not having a woman be your kitchen slave cook.
If he's consuming right wing social media, it might be because he's bored. Others have suggested left wing media, but maybe just finding other activities to do would help. These cost money, but maybe camping/hiking, hobby electronics/combat robots, dirt bikes/go-karts, RC planes/drones or metal fabrication are ideas that come to my mind. These are hobbies that have either politics neutral or left leaning communities. If he picks up that you're trying to politically influence him, he'll likely dig his heal in.
This is great advice, and combine it with talking to him. My son was into Tate, and then Rogan, and a few others throughout his years. He would tell me about something they said and I would tear it down with logic and empathy, and then explain the right mindset from which to view whatever the given subject was. Indoctrination requires isolation, so keep an open dialogue, and an open mind, and talk them down from the ledge.
Something that interests him other than fascism. Idk why that has anything to do with a gift. A gift is there to show appreciation and love, not to manipulate their pov.
Yeh, this is a weird question. Kid has to know he's going to be accepted by his own Dad and still be able to make up their own mind on things. Hopefully when they've more fully developed they might sway a different way but acceptance from their Dad shouldn't really be conditional upon it.
I know, right? You can just get something else he's interested in. Like OP, maybe the kid likes antiquities, you could get him some from Benito Mussolini's 12000 piece collection in the Colonial Museum. Or maybe he likes art, you could buy him one of Hitler's paintings.
I would say, a good conversation. Listen to him, ask question, don't be too judgemental (and that can be hard). But also accept, that for a big part, you can't form/force his way of thinking. In the end he has to find his own way in life.
Some kids adopt an edgy political identity as a form of protest or rebellion. I can see this being the case here, especially if your whole family is particularly left-leaning. Kid wants to feel like he has an autonomy over his own decision making and that he's not just a carbon copy of you or his siblings, so he becomes a contrarian.
As a teen I was also taken in by extremist political ideology on 4chan, but the thing that snapped me out of that is, surprisingly enough, my curriculum at school focusing heavily on critical thinking and problem solving as essential skills. That's unfortunately not something that can easily be condensed down into a gift-sized package. I'm sure there are some books out there that can help, but I worry that it might be too on-the-nose or that he might just not like reading much to be interested in dry subject matter like philosophy or political science.
I kind of agree with other posters here that taking a family trip somewhere, maybe not explicitly as a gift for him, but as an experience for all of your children, will expose him to stimuli that drastically differ from the way he currently sees the world, which is influenced by a nonstop stream of fearmongering propaganda and a lack of perspective of what a world outside the town or city he grew up in actually looks like.
I’m not right leaning, but I live in a right leaning area, and I think most all of us could stand a bit of time back in nature. So here’s what I would consider.
A hunting or fishing license and classes
A long weekend camping in the woods
A trip to a national park
Boat license lessons
A craft class at a local Uni, like welding or pottery. They’re usually pretty cheap and a lot of fun
A rafting trip
Not knowing him at all nor what he likes, perhaps a guitar and guitar lessons. That’s something I truly enjoyed in my late teens/early 20s. Or tickets to a music show or comedian he likes.
I would advise against hunting, fishing, and boating. I'm part of that community and it's mostly racist older men. You can find progressives like me, but most people he would encounter would just reinforce the kind of ideology you're trying to steer him away from.
So, what makes you think he's been taken in by fascist doctrine? Are we talking, "he thinks Dave Chapelle is funny and rolls his eyes at wokeness" or are we talking "defends hitler at the dinner table"? I ask just because I feel like some very liberal/leftist people can be pretty jumpy about things that are ultimately harmless. Additionally he might just be doing/saying things to act out and get a rise out of you. You're not gonna fix that by making him read "white fragility" or something.
As far as gifts go I agree with many others in suggesting something that will make him interact with other worldviews in the real world. Maybe you can get him into a hobby that is shared by people across many different socioeconomic backgrounds like basketball or martial arts or travel or something.
Local co-op Stardew Valley was a huge bonding thing for me and my kids. We also did a lot of Towerfall. Or something like It Takes Two, if it isn't too on-the-nose.
Do you know if the doctrine he’s been taken in by is religious or secular in nature?
I ask because I could recommend some books you could get him that just might get the kid to think a little harder about things.
For context, I teach philosophy and religion for some community colleges and have been looking for ways to get these Gen Z alt right boys to quit the propaganda.
While a lot of them seem to be lost causes, there are some who can be challenged to read outside their sphere, so long as what I give them isn’t too overtly “other.”
Depending on what he’s into, there might be some authors who know how to talk to an oppositional reader.
i was going to mention some books too but then i saw the pink floyd answer and realised that would be far more likely to not end up sitting on a shelf :(
The more you try to overtly meddle the more the kid will be convinced of their beliefs, reactionaries thrive off disagreement and arguments.
Get them something normal, perhaps something the connects with nature. Your goal should be to get them to connect with you and the rest of the family, you want them too feel like they are part of the in-group.
In the context of this thread part of the in group would imply a political in group which would be psychopathic manipulation. Ur implication was very simply "make your kids feel included in the family as long as they agree with my ideology". Do not change the meaning of what u said post saying it. Do not bullshit on my leg and call it a brown kitten.
When i was in ny early 20s, i was a Ron Paul guy. When I was in my early 30s, I was a Bernie guy.
So what changed, and what was the same? In my 20s, I didnt have a fundamental understanding of how money really works. Ron Paul was big on the gold standard, which makes sense kn the surface. Crypto is similar where it makes sense on the surface; finite supply means no inflation and no value loss. I somehow also reasoned that not having the gold standard was the cause of inequality, but I honeslty cant understand why, and i cant remember either.
In my 30s, I understood how they money system works mich better. Why we left the gold standard, and how it was holding back progress. I understood how our money is actually backed by muscle, and therefore the national debt doesnt really matter all that much until the day comes when the dollar has no value, because the US is defunct.
Im sure I have much more to learn as I am in my early 40s now.
The point I am trying to make, is that your son probably lacks understanding and wisdom, and is currently easily swayed by surface level logic.
Thisbis really in addition to the other great stuff people have said in here
I'd think you could probably argue that anything but Empire and Deldar isn't really that suspect though. The other factions are more comically evil or destructive than ways to hide your power level from dad.
1.) I grew up in this line of thinking (but also deeply religious, so it's a little different) and it dissipated due to two main things: psychedelics and losing weight/becoming more confident and in-shape. In my case, I hated myself because I was unattractive and very overweight. I saw other people getting girls and resented how easy it seemed, while I felt invisible.
2.) Much of my family is like this and it is always due to a similar lack of confidence/self-loathing.
I'm not suggesting anything, just throwing it out there. That's a hard thing to "gift" around, if it's even at all potentially relevant. Gym membership or weights? You'd have to have a pretty unique relationship with your son to give him psychedelics or a trip to a nice strip club, and I'm not even sure that solves anything necessarily (just using it as an extreme example). Could be badass. Could be really weird/icky. Probably the latter. Massage is less weird? I don't know.
Which is why I agree with the sentiment of separating it all from Christmas and just love him and give him something that shows you know him and know what he would like, so that he feels seen and appreciated. "I'm not going anywhere" is the most-powerful message you can try to send. I'd say IF you try to gift something like that, make sure it's only a side item. Don't make the entire thing about your differences.
Many cliches of parenting turn out to be realities as you go. You find yourself realizing tropes exist for a reason. They grow up fast. Different phases at different periods. Moody teenagers. They're not always true, but they often turn out to be understandable. Besides the above, it's worth considering whether there might be some element of "rebellion" in it, if he grew up liberal. Maybe it's just "doing the opposite of my lame family," like a little bit of a "fuck you, dad!!!" phase? No matter what, you lose the more you dramatically respond. I think riding it out by being the rock who loves him no matter what is ultimately the best play, which means some awesome gift that he would love.
1.) I grew up in this line of thinking (but also deeply religious, so it’s a little different) and it dissipated due to two main things: psychedelics and losing weight/becoming more confident and in-shape. In my case, I hated myself because I was unattractive and very overweight. I saw other people getting girls and resented how easy it seemed, while I felt invisible.
My GenZ son is in his early twenties and lockdown and covid impacts on his health and school have really thrown him for a loop. He has not been overcome by fascist ideologies, but we seem unable to inspire him with any motivation. He's the same sweet person he's always been, but I think he is content to just play video games in his room and do D&D with his friends a couple times a week forever. (I understand that, but we won't always be here to put a roof over his head, and we are not wealthy people. He's going to need to support himself when we go.)
He is also very overweight (the entire family is, but he's really accelerating it) and although he doesn't seem very very bothered by it, I know he's aware of it.
I understand the need for exercise and I understand calories. Those things don't need explaining. But I'd love to know how you got over that hurdle to start doing something about your body. I feel like some successes there could easily translate to greater confidence and motivation in other areas.
We spend lots of time together, we enjoy him just like we always have, he just seems rudderless and we're trying to help him without controlling him, but with limited success.
Anything you might be able to share about your turnaround could be helpful. Though I'm not offering him psychadelics. 🙂
Unfortunately, that really is the answer for me. Psychedelics made it all finally click in a way that stuck. I had previously seen marginal success in dieting, but could never keep it off. Because I was coming from a religious background, part of it was, "What's the point?" Sex is wrong. I married young. Life sucks. And so on. Psychedelics made all of the percolating doubts and insecurities click into place in a clear way. "I'm NOT really religious; I don't believe it. I'm not raising my kids that way. No third-party is going to step-in and change my body for me. Nobody is going to put the weights in my hand and check my progress. I have to take care of me. I either have to take action or shut up and live with the consequences. I'd really prefer to live a life where I'm more desirable and it's not really anyone else's fault if I'm not putting in enough effort and 'losing the mating game.'" And so on--can't really characterize a trip like that with words obviously.
I might have/probably would have eventually gotten there without psychedelics? I think? Maybe? I don't know. But they certainly provided the swift kick in the ass I needed to clarify years of baggage. I know it's not helpful to say "give your child psychedelics," but it just happens to be what helped me (specifically, one instance of using shrooms was the most-impactful, I mostly only ever microdosed a few times besides that one trip).
I have a long-time close friend who has long struggled with weight in a serious way. He briefly lost it and suddenly he was dating a beautiful Ukrainian girl, seeing the benefits of being healthy, loving life. That was a long time ago, it ended, he gained it all back. The closest I've come to getting through to him is to be a bit more crass than I normally would be in saying, "REMEMBER HOW GOOD IT WAS TO BE WITH THAT GIRL!? DON'T YOU MISS THAT AND WANT IT BACK? ISN'T THAT WORTH A FEW MONTHS OF WORK?" But being a bit more pointed in my language. But again, you're probably not going to say, "Don't you miss that good pussy!?" to your son, so...I'm kind of useless to you, maybe.
I can see how that makes sense. I'm not anti-psychedelics in general (if presented with a binary choice of being anti or not), but I'm also not of the experience level nor comfort level to be offering them to my son. If they would become something available to him clinically I'd support it if recommended by his doctor of course. (not that he needs our permission at his age)
Nonetheless I appreciate that you took the time to make that detailed write up. Thanks!
It sounds like your question is not actually about what to get him for Christmas, but instead about how to cope with the situation and maintain a relationship with your son
Well yeah, "how do i build a lasting relationship with my child before they start throwing me and all my friends in the gulag" is a pretty good question
This is totally valid. Fascism in this country is on extreme high. Especially in schools and other public places due to how the government uses propaganda at schools and banning everything related to being a good person.
I don't know the situation so it's hard to recommend anything besides education, remember that there human and make mistakes, don't dictate but strongly suggest ways that what there learning is fundamentally wrong. I have no kids. But whatever happens remember there human. And being accepting and loving can go a long way.
Reading through the comments here, I would say a gift certificate or membership to some activity they've expressed interest in. Ideally, something physical, that either involves working/playing/whatever with other people, or which has a social element to it.
My biased selection would be rock climbing if this is of some interest and you have a climbing gym that isn't a giant pain to access (which you might not). Solo sport, but a) you need a belayer - that was my Dad when I was doing it, and b) the gym rats I've come across are often very friendly, open people.
Can be as challenging as you make it, gets you talking with IRL people, opportunity for what sounds like really necessary quality time going up there, if he gets into bouldering or makes a gym buddy and can get there himself he can eventually do it independently, etc.
Might make sense for them, might not - only you would know, really.
let your children come to their conclusions on their own. do not try to force them into believing one thing or another. share what you believe is right and let them critically think and analyze the world for themselves
it's perfectly natural for teenagers to rebel against their parent's world view- especially when they feel like they are being forced into it. it's part of growing up and crafting your own unique identity. nobody has it all figured out when they are a teenager, even though they think they do. so they may seem arrogant and ignorant.. but that's perfectly normal. if you successfully imparted them the values of empathy and compassion when they were young, they will eventually come to proper belief systems
as for present, you know your son a lot better than any of us will.
I used to be heading down this path as a teenager. For me, college was the eye opener. When I broke away from my normal bubble of people, I would have my opinions and biases challenged.
I like the travel suggestion as well. Also I went to some music festivals around that time that were pretty significant to my beliefs. I guess it depends on the type of music they prefer though.
Have your son travel, sending him off to see how other people live and how cheerful and helpful most people are is probably going to open his eyes.
Puerto Rico, Bahama’s, St Lucia, British Virgin Islands are all fairly safe and you can mix and mingle with the locals. Just don’t stay somewhere where you will only stay on the resort. Get a hotel or resort in the middle of a community
I had a wonderful time in St Luca several years ago and stayed at the resort below. It’s a small resort in the middle of a town with lots of interaction with locals.
If you want something that he would enjoy, Mein Kampft.
I mean, I'm sure at this point he has been exposed to most literature and works to not be a fascist, this won't get fixed with a gift. Maybe try to have a 1 on 1 conversation with him, let him speak an express why he thinks like that, let him go deep, let him talk about his feelings. Fascism always root on untrue information and resent. If he respects you, you can then talk about where he is wrong, confront the lies, but embrace him as a person.
If you want to win your son back, it will take real work, respect, and love. These people get lied to, and they believe because they are full of resent and want an explanation, someone to pin all the problems, an enemy. Uprooting that is hard, but sometimes family and friends can do it. If family and friends deepen those core beliefs, nothing is going to change.
Source: When I was younger, I was that stupid too. Friends made me realize it.
We really need better terms than facist or nazi. People keep confusing the meaning of the words because its all we have for description of this thoughtset. There might be some overlap, but unless it 100% fits it just creates opportunities for people to be confused and issue to get muddied by pointless arguments and misunderstandings.
For some time i have thought this type of thoughtset as "dark humanity", but i'm not sure how fitting term it is and it feels kind of over dramatic. It just feels like humans are fundamendally split about one or more core issues, with some in the middle too. Though i'm also worried that making such clear distinction would also make the separation more solid. The issues also need more defining.
Why we need better terms is that we need to be able to confront these people without insulting them as first thing, otherwise we are just aiding the enemy by pushing them further in. Calling someone nazi or facist only hurts if there is any chance to save them. Its no better than calling someone libtard.
The fuck it is. Fascists are fascists are fascists. There is not some moral equivalence between that and libtard, and honestly fuck you for making the comparison.
What i'm trying to do is suggest we should try to find alternatives to where we are eventually going, which is both sides attacking eachother for real.
And while there is no moral equivalence, there is equivalence between our hate of fascism and their hate of our way of thinking. We shouldnt drive away those who are not completely lost.
Also, i dont see the need to be immidiately so offended and attack me verbally like that. You can point out the mistakes someone has made and offer your own corrections to them and discuss like civilized people. I feel like i dont see things as others do, i think i have some kind of autism. so how am i supposed to learn from my mistakes like this?
The opposite side of intolerance...? Yes. I do want to be that. If ensuring that people can live peacefully necessitates violence, then so be it. They are the ones who have been perpetually escalating and the left has been tolerant and attempted to work together with people. In response, they have repeatedly shat in their own hands and smeared it on our faces then made fun of our smell. It's pathetic that this is where we are at.
If there is truely no way to avoid violence, then we should stop fucking around. If there is any organized effort going on regarding opposing facism, planet dying, billionaires taking everything its failing quite badly at conveying there is any hope.
Gen Z men that fall for the machismo of "hustling" just can't conceptualize the amount of financial difference between them and their idols. Get him something he can work towards making a hobby and hope that you can talk to him about why he thinks the way he does; listen and try to empathize and offer him an alternative solution to what he has forged for himself.
Just out of curiosity, do you know what drew him to this line of thinking in the first place? Any particular media he's consumed? Knowing how one first enters into fascism can help in undoing that damage.
Probably overbearing parents trying to force an ideology down his throat without letting him developed hia own identity and personal philosophy. Trying to force anything upon someone will always lead to them rebelling. Same as conservative parents trying to force their gay kids to be strait. The irony is palpable.
You came up with an awful lot of assumptions based on absolutely zero evidence. Sounds exactly like the type of critical thinking one should expect from somebody who seems to tolerate children being indoctrinated into fascism.
I made 1 singular assumption. That being op thinks his son is a fascist when i fact he most likly is only slightly right wing and a Trump supporter at worste. I heighly doubt he is calling for a extermination of people like an actuall fascist.
You assumed the kid's parents are pushing their beliefs on him. You assumed he was struggling to form his own identity. You assumed he is rebelling. You assumed OP equates conservatism to fascism.
Every part of what you wrote was an assumption, chief.
does he like music? see if theres any old punk shows around or any records/vinyls if he likes that at all. sex pistols, dead kennedys, hell, even green day.
As a lefty who received "gifts" from her conservative parents, let me suggest giving the gift separate from a major holiday. Something I wish my parents had done that could work as a gift of sorts for you would be to take your son out for coffee or breakfast. Nothing fancy, preferably not busy. Talk to them about why they think what they do. Don't combat them, just try to understand. Ask them if they would be comfortable talking more after you've had time to think about what they said.
"Hey [child's name], you know that we have strong beliefs about certain subjects. We feel we have good reasons to believe the things we do, but there are smart people in the world who disagree with us. You are a smart kid, and that is reflected in the way you look for answers to problems that the way you have been brought up to think hasn't offered a solution for. It would mean the world to your mom and I to know out son better, what are some things you've thought deeply about recently?"
The article doesn't mention this, so I am adding that you can also read that annotated version online for free at https://www.mein-kampf-edition.de/ (but only in German; not sure if there are annotated translations into other languages, I never checked because German is my first language).
While those are cool books you’re not going to turn a facist kid leftist by gifting them anarchist books they aren’t ever going to want to read.
Especially when their radicalisation likely came from the instant gratification of social media.
They probably feel like the odd one out. Feelings of loneliness can often lead to this kind of radicalisation. You want to make the kid feel loved. Gifting them books from your ideology is pretty much the worst thing you could do (unless it’s some sort of “side gift”). Because it’s basically screaming “I’m not going to get you anything you want unless you change for me” — aka. I do not love you unconditionally, which a kid never wants to hear
I'd be curious about what makes him different from the others. There's been some research regarding fluid intelligence* vs. crystalized intelligence, where liberals tend to be more on the fluid side. It kind of makes sense because rather than trying to figure out what they can't understand off the bat, conservatives tend to rage against it.
As far as gifts, I dunno. Maybe a puzzle game? I don't know what's big in the puzzle game world now, if anything. The idea is make your son more comfortable with the idea of tackling novel problems instead of trying to cram them into an existing framework.
*it's called "intelligence" but I tend to think of it more like a thinking strategy. Fluid intelligence being "can I think of a way to solve this?" while crystallized intelligence is "what strategy that I'm familiar with already can solve this?"
Edit: maybe get him a busuu, rosetta stone, or duolingo subscription so that he can learn a new language, and maybe the desire to travel to experience life outside of the country, learn about new cultures and people, and so on.
To be honest brilliant seemed so cool to me like 7 years ago and I got a subscription and found that I basically learnt nothing from it even though I spent hundreds of hours.
It’s good at making you “feel” like you’re learning but it’s pretty bad at actually teaching things.
I’d recommend some Scott Galloway. He’s an advocate for young men, but he’s not one of those toxic manosphere types. He’s not exactly a leftist, but he’s certainly a liberal by today’s standards.
I'm a millenial but one of my most conservative friends has parents who are total left wing hippies. Sometimes kids end up rebelling or defining themselves in opposition to certain aspects of their family members.
unironically, some books on philosophy and more broad political sciences.
Assuming he isn't the stupidest person in the room at any given time, some good reading on philosophy and sociological structures (politics) will be interesting.
Don't ask me for recommendations, there are better places to go, and im sure a few people here will have good recommendations.
education is the single biggest thing preventing people from being more educated, funny how that works really.
Ooooh he's a huge reader. anarchy state and utopia? I'd like a specific suggestion. He's a huge Ayn Rand fan.
edit: I am very excited about your response because my son is too smart for the usual deprogramming tacks, but steering him away from fascism in any way would be great.
Is your kid into The Smiths? Back In The Day, all the Ayn Rand fans I knew were pretty annoying, but we could agree that The Smiths made some great music. So maybe get your kid some Smiths albums or a t-shirt or something.
(do kids still do albums these days? also, I know Morrisey has made some questionable statements, but we're talking about reaching out to a fascist here...)
holocaust documentary with real footage so he can see what the end consequences of that shit is. if seeing hundreds of naked emaciated corpses getting thrown nto huge mass graves with bulldozers doesn't make him rethink then he's a fucking psycho.
Because we’re detached from WWII; the story of what actually happened is largely settled. With current events, you’re going to find all sorts of people defending indefensible acts because they’re still too connected to them.
There's an example for you, two comments down someone accused him of being a fascist for this conversation with absolutely no evidence to show he supports ethnic cleansing but plenty to show he simply disagrees with the person calling him a fascist (on what constitutes a fascist, if nothing else.)
Fair enough, I can't either from my app, but if that's the case it would have been worth mentioning. As it stands it appears he's simply assumed to be a fascist for the crime of questioning whether a third person labeling a fourth person as fascist has a basis for their accusation. And until I see a screenshot of sunzu2 saying he does support ethnic cleansing, all I can do is work with what evidence I've seen.
Other than fascism, what else is he into? Lean in that direction. Make it apparent that you are all a loving family, and he is a part of that as long as he remains willing to put in the work/maintenance that love requires.
Is he into music? The retro devices seem to be in right now. I got my nephew one year a Walkman and he's been buying cassettes. Now he has a VCR and collecting tapes. I loved all that mechanical stuff when I was a kid and I think that feeling transcends generations. He just needs a hobby to spend his thoughts with, politics are not worthy of our time.
A lot of people recommend anything, outdoors, hiking, camping, dirt bikes etc.
I want to say you have to be careful with those. As you can easily spiral into right wing, conspiracy theorist territory.
Youtube is very good at pushing that kind of content.
Maybe something about food, like cooking classes, or about traveling.
Edit: I developed my comment a bit more below. Hiking isn't a right wing hobby per say. But here is the experience I had with youtube. If you start browsing video about camping and hiking. You will probably start browsing video about solo camping, then survivalism. Then youtube will try to push video about paranormal activities and conspiracies.
So the important part is cut down on social media.
I think a lot of right wing people are people who have travelled very little. If OP can afford it, maybe a trip somewhere with the family.
No no, it's not really what I mean. Hiking is great, and everything that has to do with nature.
But I enjoy sometimes watching video about surviving in nature, bushcraft and youtube algorithm started pushing stuff about Paranormal shit, conspiracy things.
It might be true about anything. it's juste something to keep in mind. Before pushing OP's son to get a hunting or fishing license.
But clearly disconnecting from social media can help.
If you have to advise about hobbies, boardgaming is nice, rollerblading too.
First question: when you use the terms “liberal” and “fascist” do you mean them in their original sense or as they are currently employed in US English?
Perhaps if u talked to ur son abput his beliefs and didnt invalidate his opinions simply because u disagree u might both learn a little and grow as people. Calling ur son a fascist is only going to make him more steadfast in his beliefs.
Trying to force him to believe what u want instead of teaching him to think fof himself and excercise his free will to develop his own identity separate from what u told him might be a wise idea.
As for what to get him for Christmas how about sonthibg unrelated to politics that he legitimately wants. Go speak to him and ask him.
A lot of young men are sucked into this world, what you have described is exactly what I took OP to be looking for.
They might get them a membership to a gym or tools for a hobby that allows them to socialise outside of online.
Op mever called their son a fascist or mentioned they want them to believe the same thing. Fascism is harmful, thats why even the fascists call the others fascists, it is not a bad idea to want to realign someone's viewpoint with reality.
Why does he have to be taken in by "fascist doctrine"? Maybe he just disagrees with your worldview. Get him a book on personal finance and investing. Obviously he will be taking care of you when you're elderly.
Not only that, but the hatred on the right will consume them. Sit back, lay low, don't participate and let the fools burn themselves. Opposition will only give them targets to blame for their failures.
Being conservative depends on you being fearful rather than empathic. The fast way to get people to turn from conservatism is promoting behavior that is focused on doing good for others and providing an environment where someone might not have as much external stressors triggering a fear response.
Normal gift, yes.
Love conquers all? This isn't a Hallmark movie, yo. Have a chat after Xmas. If you have the presence of mind to see your kids supporting shit we literally fought wars over, you don't pat them on the head and say "ah it'll be fine".
Be a good parent; talk to your kids.
Ignore all the joke answers here. It seems insensitive given the subject matter. He's probably lonely and feeling left out. If he has siblings it's all the more likely. I was an alienated teenager who was in a place similar to your son I think. I eventually realized I and many others we're being used to further the agenda of some unsavory fucks who wanted to send us back to the 1860's. Try to show him how much he means to you. Let him know you care about him. Just don't drive him away, Show some love and compassion and he'll realize he's drinking the kool-aid eventually I think. Hope this helps, good luck!
Also, should work with him emphasizing that politics isn't really about having a party but before that, having an ethos. At the end of the day you need to evaluate how your ethos aligns with the parties actions, not ideas. I can't believe anyone today is conservative as I had once known them because I know the GOPs actions align only with obtaining power. Unless your ethos is "fuck you i got mine" the GOP offers you nothing. Which also means that you've already got yours. Which, looking at conservatives, I have my doubts. And if they don't have theirs, well then it's just, "fuck you." Which I can understand why a teenager would feel that way.
Barry Goldwater wouldn't recognize what his party has become. He tried to warn them. He pretty much predicted the rise of Christian nationalism.
"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." - Barry Goldwater
I know almost zero about berry goldwater but know with a stark certainly you will never catch a current conservative saying anything like that. To think, goldwater was probably as prominent a figure as john mccain.
He was the Republican presidential candidate in 1964. He ran against Lyndon B. Johnson. He was a very well respected man in the party. I'm not going to pretend he's the greatest politician of all time. I definitely have ideological differences but I respect him for what he fought for.
A plane ticket. Others have suggested he's bored and I concur. IMO, he needs to be intellectually challenged while simultaneously having his fears assuaged. Fear, I believe, is a key driver in pushing people toward fascist ideologies. Most likely he fears not being loved.
Traveling to countries with very different cultures can be both stimulating and reassuring, especially if it involves some significant challenge - a physical one like climbing a significant peak or somewhere that's just super hard to get to. You can demonstrate that you love and care for him by going with him. Just the two of you.
I think this is the best one. It's a real, enjoyable gift recommendation that doesn't sidestep the parent's concerns about their kid
It has beautiful alcoves, i hear.
How do you say, the “nooks and crannies.”
That shithole?
Fear is a key driver (period). I just heard this on the radio. They analyzed what pulls people in and it's fear. Fear also keeps people lingering longer. I didn't hear enough to explain it (I got to my destination before the show was over). Putting it together with other things I've heard, the algorithms that are tuned to keep people engaged on the site skill natually choose things that stoke fear and that is probably the same thing that the facist propaganda is promoting, too.
Additionally, I would suggest activities that doesn't isolate him further or put him in a group of like minded people. Cooking classes would be nice.
While cooking classes might be nice, I would think for someone who is suspected of falling into the fascist sphere of influence that masculinity is more than likely highly emphasized so they would more than likely be offended by the thought of cooking.
Although if you could frame it in a masculine sense like barbeque then maybe you could get somewhere. I don't know if there are specific group barbeque classes though lol
This is a really interesting cultural one that always kinda surprises me.
Where I am, cooking has always been a very masculine thing. Cutting up meat with sharp knives, setting things on fire, etc. The chef industry here is very male dominated and men cook together as a social thing when hanging out. In most families I encounter, the dad does most of the cooking with the exception of maybe baking? It's weird to hear that it would ever be thought of as insufficiently masculine.
In fact I think it would be seen as maybe a bit embarrassing/weak if you were a man who couldn't cook.
To be honest, my shithead US centric mindset kicked in there. OP never mentioned being from the US, but the rise of fascism has been a major focus as of late so I assumed they were.
It's good to know other countries are more sensible and don't share our stupid concept of masculinity being degraded by not having a woman be your
kitchen slavecook.Why is his political opinion important for a Christmas present? Just give him something he'd like.
Just make sure they're white.
Maus the graphic novel
That's a doozie, for sure!! Some heavy shit in there.
Might be a bit of a loaded gift, however?
If he's consuming right wing social media, it might be because he's bored. Others have suggested left wing media, but maybe just finding other activities to do would help. These cost money, but maybe camping/hiking, hobby electronics/combat robots, dirt bikes/go-karts, RC planes/drones or metal fabrication are ideas that come to my mind. These are hobbies that have either politics neutral or left leaning communities. If he picks up that you're trying to politically influence him, he'll likely dig his heal in.
This is great advice, and combine it with talking to him. My son was into Tate, and then Rogan, and a few others throughout his years. He would tell me about something they said and I would tear it down with logic and empathy, and then explain the right mindset from which to view whatever the given subject was. Indoctrination requires isolation, so keep an open dialogue, and an open mind, and talk them down from the ledge.
Bootstraps
This is my favorite one.
Voucher for 1 free vasectomy?
Something that interests him other than fascism. Idk why that has anything to do with a gift. A gift is there to show appreciation and love, not to manipulate their pov.
Yeh, this is a weird question. Kid has to know he's going to be accepted by his own Dad and still be able to make up their own mind on things. Hopefully when they've more fully developed they might sway a different way but acceptance from their Dad shouldn't really be conditional upon it.
I know, right? You can just get something else he's interested in. Like OP, maybe the kid likes antiquities, you could get him some from Benito Mussolini's 12000 piece collection in the Colonial Museum. Or maybe he likes art, you could buy him one of Hitler's paintings.
Coal. For some reason Republicans love that stuff.
I would say, a good conversation. Listen to him, ask question, don't be too judgemental (and that can be hard). But also accept, that for a big part, you can't form/force his way of thinking. In the end he has to find his own way in life.
Some kids adopt an edgy political identity as a form of protest or rebellion. I can see this being the case here, especially if your whole family is particularly left-leaning. Kid wants to feel like he has an autonomy over his own decision making and that he's not just a carbon copy of you or his siblings, so he becomes a contrarian.
As a teen I was also taken in by extremist political ideology on 4chan, but the thing that snapped me out of that is, surprisingly enough, my curriculum at school focusing heavily on critical thinking and problem solving as essential skills. That's unfortunately not something that can easily be condensed down into a gift-sized package. I'm sure there are some books out there that can help, but I worry that it might be too on-the-nose or that he might just not like reading much to be interested in dry subject matter like philosophy or political science.
I kind of agree with other posters here that taking a family trip somewhere, maybe not explicitly as a gift for him, but as an experience for all of your children, will expose him to stimuli that drastically differ from the way he currently sees the world, which is influenced by a nonstop stream of fearmongering propaganda and a lack of perspective of what a world outside the town or city he grew up in actually looks like.
I’m not right leaning, but I live in a right leaning area, and I think most all of us could stand a bit of time back in nature. So here’s what I would consider.
Not knowing him at all nor what he likes, perhaps a guitar and guitar lessons. That’s something I truly enjoyed in my late teens/early 20s. Or tickets to a music show or comedian he likes.
These are really educational, and I actually made a new friend at one, and I'm a middle-aged man.
I would advise against hunting, fishing, and boating. I'm part of that community and it's mostly racist older men. You can find progressives like me, but most people he would encounter would just reinforce the kind of ideology you're trying to steer him away from.
So, what makes you think he's been taken in by fascist doctrine? Are we talking, "he thinks Dave Chapelle is funny and rolls his eyes at wokeness" or are we talking "defends hitler at the dinner table"? I ask just because I feel like some very liberal/leftist people can be pretty jumpy about things that are ultimately harmless. Additionally he might just be doing/saying things to act out and get a rise out of you. You're not gonna fix that by making him read "white fragility" or something.
As far as gifts go I agree with many others in suggesting something that will make him interact with other worldviews in the real world. Maybe you can get him into a hobby that is shared by people across many different socioeconomic backgrounds like basketball or martial arts or travel or something.
Start with video games. But try to make it a game that has couch co-op so your family can come together.
Local co-op Stardew Valley was a huge bonding thing for me and my kids. We also did a lot of Towerfall. Or something like It Takes Two, if it isn't too on-the-nose.
Do you know if the doctrine he’s been taken in by is religious or secular in nature?
I ask because I could recommend some books you could get him that just might get the kid to think a little harder about things.
For context, I teach philosophy and religion for some community colleges and have been looking for ways to get these Gen Z alt right boys to quit the propaganda.
While a lot of them seem to be lost causes, there are some who can be challenged to read outside their sphere, so long as what I give them isn’t too overtly “other.”
Depending on what he’s into, there might be some authors who know how to talk to an oppositional reader.
i was going to mention some books too but then i saw the pink floyd answer and realised that would be far more likely to not end up sitting on a shelf :(
An education?
Ask him what he wants and use that as a starting point?
The more you try to overtly meddle the more the kid will be convinced of their beliefs, reactionaries thrive off disagreement and arguments.
Get them something normal, perhaps something the connects with nature. Your goal should be to get them to connect with you and the rest of the family, you want them too feel like they are part of the in-group.
Isnt this the same type of thing the church tries to do? "Make em feel part of the in-group" thats pure psychopathic manipulation right there.
My brother/sister/nonbinary sibling in christ "make your kids feel included in the family" is absolutely not in any way psychopathic manipulation.
In the context of this thread part of the in group would imply a political in group which would be psychopathic manipulation. Ur implication was very simply "make your kids feel included in the family as long as they agree with my ideology". Do not change the meaning of what u said post saying it. Do not bullshit on my leg and call it a brown kitten.
I'm not the guy you originally replied to. I'm a random third party that read what he said, read what you said, and then commented what I did.
I didn't read "you want them to feel like part of the in-group" as political. I read it as "you want them to feel like part of the family"
At no point was the qualifier, "as long as they agree with your ideology" included. You invented that yourself.
How do you contact brain washing without other brain washing?
They're not going to logic out of a belief that they didn't logic into.
So ur trying to justifying brainwashing of a child?
U absolutely can logic out of a belief thats essentially what CBT is.
Plane ticket to Peru and a Ayahuasca retreat
When i was in ny early 20s, i was a Ron Paul guy. When I was in my early 30s, I was a Bernie guy.
So what changed, and what was the same? In my 20s, I didnt have a fundamental understanding of how money really works. Ron Paul was big on the gold standard, which makes sense kn the surface. Crypto is similar where it makes sense on the surface; finite supply means no inflation and no value loss. I somehow also reasoned that not having the gold standard was the cause of inequality, but I honeslty cant understand why, and i cant remember either.
In my 30s, I understood how they money system works mich better. Why we left the gold standard, and how it was holding back progress. I understood how our money is actually backed by muscle, and therefore the national debt doesnt really matter all that much until the day comes when the dollar has no value, because the US is defunct.
Im sure I have much more to learn as I am in my early 40s now.
The point I am trying to make, is that your son probably lacks understanding and wisdom, and is currently easily swayed by surface level logic.
Thisbis really in addition to the other great stuff people have said in here
A cooy of disco elysium
Second this, communism go brrr
A hobby
gets really into 40k
Thats only a problem if he picks the wrong faction.
Not sure if heresy
Almost certainly heresy, even if the Inquisition was somehow a faction it would still probably be heresy.
What's the right faction?
Wrong, Space Dwarves exist.
I'd think you could probably argue that anything but Empire and Deldar isn't really that suspect though. The other factions are more comically evil or destructive than ways to hide your power level from dad.
Double wrong, GW just hasnt had the time to write enough lore about them for us to understand just how they are absolute assholes.
If it's not in the text, I don't have to care about it!
The Wall (the full album) by Pink Floyd
I don't know how to put this delicately, but:
1.) I grew up in this line of thinking (but also deeply religious, so it's a little different) and it dissipated due to two main things: psychedelics and losing weight/becoming more confident and in-shape. In my case, I hated myself because I was unattractive and very overweight. I saw other people getting girls and resented how easy it seemed, while I felt invisible.
2.) Much of my family is like this and it is always due to a similar lack of confidence/self-loathing.
I'm not suggesting anything, just throwing it out there. That's a hard thing to "gift" around, if it's even at all potentially relevant. Gym membership or weights? You'd have to have a pretty unique relationship with your son to give him psychedelics or a trip to a nice strip club, and I'm not even sure that solves anything necessarily (just using it as an extreme example). Could be badass. Could be really weird/icky. Probably the latter. Massage is less weird? I don't know.
Which is why I agree with the sentiment of separating it all from Christmas and just love him and give him something that shows you know him and know what he would like, so that he feels seen and appreciated. "I'm not going anywhere" is the most-powerful message you can try to send. I'd say IF you try to gift something like that, make sure it's only a side item. Don't make the entire thing about your differences.
Many cliches of parenting turn out to be realities as you go. You find yourself realizing tropes exist for a reason. They grow up fast. Different phases at different periods. Moody teenagers. They're not always true, but they often turn out to be understandable. Besides the above, it's worth considering whether there might be some element of "rebellion" in it, if he grew up liberal. Maybe it's just "doing the opposite of my lame family," like a little bit of a "fuck you, dad!!!" phase? No matter what, you lose the more you dramatically respond. I think riding it out by being the rock who loves him no matter what is ultimately the best play, which means some awesome gift that he would love.
My GenZ son is in his early twenties and lockdown and covid impacts on his health and school have really thrown him for a loop. He has not been overcome by fascist ideologies, but we seem unable to inspire him with any motivation. He's the same sweet person he's always been, but I think he is content to just play video games in his room and do D&D with his friends a couple times a week forever. (I understand that, but we won't always be here to put a roof over his head, and we are not wealthy people. He's going to need to support himself when we go.)
He is also very overweight (the entire family is, but he's really accelerating it) and although he doesn't seem very very bothered by it, I know he's aware of it.
I understand the need for exercise and I understand calories. Those things don't need explaining. But I'd love to know how you got over that hurdle to start doing something about your body. I feel like some successes there could easily translate to greater confidence and motivation in other areas.
We spend lots of time together, we enjoy him just like we always have, he just seems rudderless and we're trying to help him without controlling him, but with limited success.
Anything you might be able to share about your turnaround could be helpful. Though I'm not offering him psychadelics. 🙂
Unfortunately, that really is the answer for me. Psychedelics made it all finally click in a way that stuck. I had previously seen marginal success in dieting, but could never keep it off. Because I was coming from a religious background, part of it was, "What's the point?" Sex is wrong. I married young. Life sucks. And so on. Psychedelics made all of the percolating doubts and insecurities click into place in a clear way. "I'm NOT really religious; I don't believe it. I'm not raising my kids that way. No third-party is going to step-in and change my body for me. Nobody is going to put the weights in my hand and check my progress. I have to take care of me. I either have to take action or shut up and live with the consequences. I'd really prefer to live a life where I'm more desirable and it's not really anyone else's fault if I'm not putting in enough effort and 'losing the mating game.'" And so on--can't really characterize a trip like that with words obviously.
I might have/probably would have eventually gotten there without psychedelics? I think? Maybe? I don't know. But they certainly provided the swift kick in the ass I needed to clarify years of baggage. I know it's not helpful to say "give your child psychedelics," but it just happens to be what helped me (specifically, one instance of using shrooms was the most-impactful, I mostly only ever microdosed a few times besides that one trip).
I have a long-time close friend who has long struggled with weight in a serious way. He briefly lost it and suddenly he was dating a beautiful Ukrainian girl, seeing the benefits of being healthy, loving life. That was a long time ago, it ended, he gained it all back. The closest I've come to getting through to him is to be a bit more crass than I normally would be in saying, "REMEMBER HOW GOOD IT WAS TO BE WITH THAT GIRL!? DON'T YOU MISS THAT AND WANT IT BACK? ISN'T THAT WORTH A FEW MONTHS OF WORK?" But being a bit more pointed in my language. But again, you're probably not going to say, "Don't you miss that good pussy!?" to your son, so...I'm kind of useless to you, maybe.
I can see how that makes sense. I'm not anti-psychedelics in general (if presented with a binary choice of being anti or not), but I'm also not of the experience level nor comfort level to be offering them to my son. If they would become something available to him clinically I'd support it if recommended by his doctor of course. (not that he needs our permission at his age)
Nonetheless I appreciate that you took the time to make that detailed write up. Thanks!
I'm not joking or kidding or insincere. I actually don't know what to do.
Get him something related to his interests. It's weird to make Christmas political like this
Christmas has always been political
Yeah, I'm not watching "why we need a war on Christmas" on YouTube. Sorry
It sounds like your question is not actually about what to get him for Christmas, but instead about how to cope with the situation and maintain a relationship with your son
Well yeah, "how do i build a lasting relationship with my child before they start throwing me and all my friends in the gulag" is a pretty good question
This is totally valid. Fascism in this country is on extreme high. Especially in schools and other public places due to how the government uses propaganda at schools and banning everything related to being a good person.
I don't know the situation so it's hard to recommend anything besides education, remember that there human and make mistakes, don't dictate but strongly suggest ways that what there learning is fundamentally wrong. I have no kids. But whatever happens remember there human. And being accepting and loving can go a long way.
Reading through the comments here, I would say a gift certificate or membership to some activity they've expressed interest in. Ideally, something physical, that either involves working/playing/whatever with other people, or which has a social element to it.
My biased selection would be rock climbing if this is of some interest and you have a climbing gym that isn't a giant pain to access (which you might not). Solo sport, but a) you need a belayer - that was my Dad when I was doing it, and b) the gym rats I've come across are often very friendly, open people.
Can be as challenging as you make it, gets you talking with IRL people, opportunity for what sounds like really necessary quality time going up there, if he gets into bouldering or makes a gym buddy and can get there himself he can eventually do it independently, etc.
Might make sense for them, might not - only you would know, really.
let your children come to their conclusions on their own. do not try to force them into believing one thing or another. share what you believe is right and let them critically think and analyze the world for themselves
it's perfectly natural for teenagers to rebel against their parent's world view- especially when they feel like they are being forced into it. it's part of growing up and crafting your own unique identity. nobody has it all figured out when they are a teenager, even though they think they do. so they may seem arrogant and ignorant.. but that's perfectly normal. if you successfully imparted them the values of empathy and compassion when they were young, they will eventually come to proper belief systems
as for present, you know your son a lot better than any of us will.
An extremely late term abortion
Dunno. Look at how few Jews under 30 are Zionists, despite the brainwashing attempts they're bombarded with
Das Kapital
I used to be heading down this path as a teenager. For me, college was the eye opener. When I broke away from my normal bubble of people, I would have my opinions and biases challenged.
I like the travel suggestion as well. Also I went to some music festivals around that time that were pretty significant to my beliefs. I guess it depends on the type of music they prefer though.
Have your son travel, sending him off to see how other people live and how cheerful and helpful most people are is probably going to open his eyes.
I had a wonderful time in St Luca several years ago and stayed at the resort below. It’s a small resort in the middle of a town with lots of interaction with locals.
https://coco-resorts.com/
I would send him to Europe over the Caribbean. Its too easy to stay on the resort and learn nothing in the Carribean.
Literally the link I posted was a small resort in the middle of a community…
A turd.
If you want something that he would enjoy, Mein Kampft.
I mean, I'm sure at this point he has been exposed to most literature and works to not be a fascist, this won't get fixed with a gift. Maybe try to have a 1 on 1 conversation with him, let him speak an express why he thinks like that, let him go deep, let him talk about his feelings. Fascism always root on untrue information and resent. If he respects you, you can then talk about where he is wrong, confront the lies, but embrace him as a person.
If you want to win your son back, it will take real work, respect, and love. These people get lied to, and they believe because they are full of resent and want an explanation, someone to pin all the problems, an enemy. Uprooting that is hard, but sometimes family and friends can do it. If family and friends deepen those core beliefs, nothing is going to change.
Source: When I was younger, I was that stupid too. Friends made me realize it.
The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair.
We really need better terms than facist or nazi. People keep confusing the meaning of the words because its all we have for description of this thoughtset. There might be some overlap, but unless it 100% fits it just creates opportunities for people to be confused and issue to get muddied by pointless arguments and misunderstandings.
For some time i have thought this type of thoughtset as "dark humanity", but i'm not sure how fitting term it is and it feels kind of over dramatic. It just feels like humans are fundamendally split about one or more core issues, with some in the middle too. Though i'm also worried that making such clear distinction would also make the separation more solid. The issues also need more defining.
Why we need better terms is that we need to be able to confront these people without insulting them as first thing, otherwise we are just aiding the enemy by pushing them further in. Calling someone nazi or facist only hurts if there is any chance to save them. Its no better than calling someone libtard.
The fuck it is. Fascists are fascists are fascists. There is not some moral equivalence between that and libtard, and honestly fuck you for making the comparison.
What i'm trying to do is suggest we should try to find alternatives to where we are eventually going, which is both sides attacking eachother for real.
And while there is no moral equivalence, there is equivalence between our hate of fascism and their hate of our way of thinking. We shouldnt drive away those who are not completely lost.
Also, i dont see the need to be immidiately so offended and attack me verbally like that. You can point out the mistakes someone has made and offer your own corrections to them and discuss like civilized people. I feel like i dont see things as others do, i think i have some kind of autism. so how am i supposed to learn from my mistakes like this?
The opposite side of intolerance...? Yes. I do want to be that. If ensuring that people can live peacefully necessitates violence, then so be it. They are the ones who have been perpetually escalating and the left has been tolerant and attempted to work together with people. In response, they have repeatedly shat in their own hands and smeared it on our faces then made fun of our smell. It's pathetic that this is where we are at.
If there is truely no way to avoid violence, then we should stop fucking around. If there is any organized effort going on regarding opposing facism, planet dying, billionaires taking everything its failing quite badly at conveying there is any hope.
I agree completely.
Some political theory, then read it yourself so you can stop being a liberal /j
A Peoples History of the United States by Howard Zinn
Gen Z men that fall for the machismo of "hustling" just can't conceptualize the amount of financial difference between them and their idols. Get him something he can work towards making a hobby and hope that you can talk to him about why he thinks the way he does; listen and try to empathize and offer him an alternative solution to what he has forged for himself.
Just out of curiosity, do you know what drew him to this line of thinking in the first place? Any particular media he's consumed? Knowing how one first enters into fascism can help in undoing that damage.
It's usually far-right dipshits on social media who disguise racism, sexism, transphobia as comedy. Gavin McInnes for example. I hate that fuck.
Probably overbearing parents trying to force an ideology down his throat without letting him developed hia own identity and personal philosophy. Trying to force anything upon someone will always lead to them rebelling. Same as conservative parents trying to force their gay kids to be strait. The irony is palpable.
You came up with an awful lot of assumptions based on absolutely zero evidence. Sounds exactly like the type of critical thinking one should expect from somebody who seems to tolerate children being indoctrinated into fascism.
I made 1 singular assumption. That being op thinks his son is a fascist when i fact he most likly is only slightly right wing and a Trump supporter at worste. I heighly doubt he is calling for a extermination of people like an actuall fascist.
You assumed the kid's parents are pushing their beliefs on him. You assumed he was struggling to form his own identity. You assumed he is rebelling. You assumed OP equates conservatism to fascism.
Every part of what you wrote was an assumption, chief.
does he like music? see if theres any old punk shows around or any records/vinyls if he likes that at all. sex pistols, dead kennedys, hell, even green day.
I don't know how else to show him I love him or that he's a part of this family.
Coal
No! That's what they want!
The wicked have enough coal
Hell, its making them rich!
As a lefty who received "gifts" from her conservative parents, let me suggest giving the gift separate from a major holiday. Something I wish my parents had done that could work as a gift of sorts for you would be to take your son out for coffee or breakfast. Nothing fancy, preferably not busy. Talk to them about why they think what they do. Don't combat them, just try to understand. Ask them if they would be comfortable talking more after you've had time to think about what they said.
"Hey [child's name], you know that we have strong beliefs about certain subjects. We feel we have good reasons to believe the things we do, but there are smart people in the world who disagree with us. You are a smart kid, and that is reflected in the way you look for answers to problems that the way you have been brought up to think hasn't offered a solution for. It would mean the world to your mom and I to know out son better, what are some things you've thought deeply about recently?"
Annotated Mein Kampf:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/04/annotated-version-of-hitlers-mein-kampf-a-hit-in-germany.html
The article doesn't mention this, so I am adding that you can also read that annotated version online for free at https://www.mein-kampf-edition.de/ (but only in German; not sure if there are annotated translations into other languages, I never checked because German is my first language).
My 1st thought as well
While those are cool books you’re not going to turn a facist kid leftist by gifting them anarchist books they aren’t ever going to want to read.
Especially when their radicalisation likely came from the instant gratification of social media.
They probably feel like the odd one out. Feelings of loneliness can often lead to this kind of radicalisation. You want to make the kid feel loved. Gifting them books from your ideology is pretty much the worst thing you could do (unless it’s some sort of “side gift”). Because it’s basically screaming “I’m not going to get you anything you want unless you change for me” — aka. I do not love you unconditionally, which a kid never wants to hear
I'd be curious about what makes him different from the others. There's been some research regarding fluid intelligence* vs. crystalized intelligence, where liberals tend to be more on the fluid side. It kind of makes sense because rather than trying to figure out what they can't understand off the bat, conservatives tend to rage against it.
As far as gifts, I dunno. Maybe a puzzle game? I don't know what's big in the puzzle game world now, if anything. The idea is make your son more comfortable with the idea of tackling novel problems instead of trying to cram them into an existing framework.
*it's called "intelligence" but I tend to think of it more like a thinking strategy. Fluid intelligence being "can I think of a way to solve this?" while crystallized intelligence is "what strategy that I'm familiar with already can solve this?"
Edit: maybe get him a busuu, rosetta stone, or duolingo subscription so that he can learn a new language, and maybe the desire to travel to experience life outside of the country, learn about new cultures and people, and so on.
To be honest brilliant seemed so cool to me like 7 years ago and I got a subscription and found that I basically learnt nothing from it even though I spent hundreds of hours.
It’s good at making you “feel” like you’re learning but it’s pretty bad at actually teaching things.
A textbook will go so much further.
I’d recommend some Scott Galloway. He’s an advocate for young men, but he’s not one of those toxic manosphere types. He’s not exactly a leftist, but he’s certainly a liberal by today’s standards.
And if your son is old enough, and a virgin/incel, maybe buy him an evening with female companionship.
I'm a millenial but one of my most conservative friends has parents who are total left wing hippies. Sometimes kids end up rebelling or defining themselves in opposition to certain aspects of their family members.
And sometimes, kids get less conservative with age. I did a u-turn in my mid-20s and am probably the furthest left in all of my family.
A copy of mein craft
It's hard to do that when he shows such clear disdain for his siblings.
unironically, some books on philosophy and more broad political sciences.
Assuming he isn't the stupidest person in the room at any given time, some good reading on philosophy and sociological structures (politics) will be interesting.
Don't ask me for recommendations, there are better places to go, and im sure a few people here will have good recommendations.
education is the single biggest thing preventing people from being more educated, funny how that works really.
Give him a book by Robert Nozick, so he discovers what coherent conservative philosophy sounds like
Ooooh he's a huge reader. anarchy state and utopia? I'd like a specific suggestion. He's a huge Ayn Rand fan.
edit: I am very excited about your response because my son is too smart for the usual deprogramming tacks, but steering him away from fascism in any way would be great.
Give him 1984 so he can understand where authoritarianism leads.
EDIT: who the fuck downvoted this? How is teaching a kid about the horror of authoritarianism a bad thing?
Animal farm, too.
Of course good shout
In the context of Lemmy, my best explanation is that tankies hate Orwell.
Do they not see the irony in that?
Honestly it’s a very lazy tack. Imagine what would actually happen if you are a young conservative and your leftist aunt or whatever gives you 1984.
if he likes ayn rand, i would suggest bioshock: rapture by john shirley
Is your kid into The Smiths? Back In The Day, all the Ayn Rand fans I knew were pretty annoying, but we could agree that The Smiths made some great music. So maybe get your kid some Smiths albums or a t-shirt or something.
(do kids still do albums these days? also, I know Morrisey has made some questionable statements, but we're talking about reaching out to a fascist here...)
Oh god Ayn Rand? I’m surprised he has the attention span. Yeah Anarchy State and Utopia.
Steel man his perspective. Give him something he finds interesting which will also teach him to develop his argumentation.
holocaust documentary with real footage so he can see what the end consequences of that shit is. if seeing hundreds of naked emaciated corpses getting thrown nto huge mass graves with bulldozers doesn't make him rethink then he's a fucking psycho.
Because we’re detached from WWII; the story of what actually happened is largely settled. With current events, you’re going to find all sorts of people defending indefensible acts because they’re still too connected to them.
By “fascist” you mean “supports ethnic cleansing”, or “doesn’t agree with me on every single political issue”?
Which political issue do you get called fascist for?
I'm sorry you've been exposed to that. I oddly haven't. Maybe it's the words I'm picking. Maybe it's the thoughts behind those words.
I guess without actual examples we'll never know.
https://lemmy.world/comment/13627379
There's an example for you, two comments down someone accused him of being a fascist for this conversation with absolutely no evidence to show he supports ethnic cleansing but plenty to show he simply disagrees with the person calling him a fascist (on what constitutes a fascist, if nothing else.)
I don't know how to check the mod log. Maybe that guy did? No idea
Fair enough, I can't either from my app, but if that's the case it would have been worth mentioning. As it stands it appears he's simply assumed to be a fascist for the crime of questioning whether a third person labeling a fourth person as fascist has a basis for their accusation. And until I see a screenshot of sunzu2 saying he does support ethnic cleansing, all I can do is work with what evidence I've seen.
Hah! Possibly. It's very fascist to not label others fascist for no reason. I think that's the fifteenth tenet of fascism.
Found the fascist.
Is the idiot in the room with you now?
Maybe don't say the N word in a derogatory tone then.
Drag recognises you didn't specify which word you used. And in drag's book, that means everyone is free to wildly speculate.
Its sad as fuck that this needs to be asked. The word facist used to mean something.
Other than fascism, what else is he into? Lean in that direction. Make it apparent that you are all a loving family, and he is a part of that as long as he remains willing to put in the work/maintenance that love requires.
Marx
Is he into music? The retro devices seem to be in right now. I got my nephew one year a Walkman and he's been buying cassettes. Now he has a VCR and collecting tapes. I loved all that mechanical stuff when I was a kid and I think that feeling transcends generations. He just needs a hobby to spend his thoughts with, politics are not worthy of our time.
A lot of people recommend anything, outdoors, hiking, camping, dirt bikes etc.
I want to say you have to be careful with those. As you can easily spiral into right wing, conspiracy theorist territory.
Youtube is very good at pushing that kind of content.
Maybe something about food, like cooking classes, or about traveling.
Edit: I developed my comment a bit more below. Hiking isn't a right wing hobby per say. But here is the experience I had with youtube. If you start browsing video about camping and hiking. You will probably start browsing video about solo camping, then survivalism. Then youtube will try to push video about paranormal activities and conspiracies.
So the important part is cut down on social media.
I think a lot of right wing people are people who have travelled very little. If OP can afford it, maybe a trip somewhere with the family.
So hiking is fascist now?
No no, it's not really what I mean. Hiking is great, and everything that has to do with nature.
But I enjoy sometimes watching video about surviving in nature, bushcraft and youtube algorithm started pushing stuff about Paranormal shit, conspiracy things.
It might be true about anything. it's juste something to keep in mind. Before pushing OP's son to get a hunting or fishing license.
But clearly disconnecting from social media can help.
If you have to advise about hobbies, boardgaming is nice, rollerblading too.
You ought to edit your comment above because it reads like you’re telling people those things are dangerous.
Survivalist militias are, and guess who already has a history of going too far...
https://theauthoritarians.org/
........a ballgag?
A ticket to visit https://nmaahc.si.edu/explore/exhibitions/slavery-and-freedom
or
https://www.theauschwitztours.com/
A course for https://coursebrowser.dce.harvard.edu/course/slavery-and-historical-memory/
Gift him the yellow badge. Let him wear it and slowly remove his luxury to do things throughout the December.
Disconnection notice from the ISP.
A contract to not use the internet for a year in exchange for X cash/gift.
Fake Klux invitation.
A visit to people with different views including the thing his on, plus if old people for uncool effect.
First question: when you use the terms “liberal” and “fascist” do you mean them in their original sense or as they are currently employed in US English?
Maga hat and the tshirt with Trumps mug shot or the picture after he got shot
Perhaps if u talked to ur son abput his beliefs and didnt invalidate his opinions simply because u disagree u might both learn a little and grow as people. Calling ur son a fascist is only going to make him more steadfast in his beliefs.
Trying to force him to believe what u want instead of teaching him to think fof himself and excercise his free will to develop his own identity separate from what u told him might be a wise idea.
As for what to get him for Christmas how about sonthibg unrelated to politics that he legitimately wants. Go speak to him and ask him.
A lot of young men are sucked into this world, what you have described is exactly what I took OP to be looking for.
They might get them a membership to a gym or tools for a hobby that allows them to socialise outside of online.
Op mever called their son a fascist or mentioned they want them to believe the same thing. Fascism is harmful, thats why even the fascists call the others fascists, it is not a bad idea to want to realign someone's viewpoint with reality.
Trump doll. Peter Dutton doll. Hitler doll.
Etc
A bible lol
I'd suggest NOT giving him more liberalism, since that has already demonstrated the predictable outcome.
Indeed. Perhaps a positive reinforcement?
Scratch a fascist and a liberal bleeds.
That's literally what fascist parents do to their gay and trans kids. Great fucking plan.
It was just an example
Why does he have to be taken in by "fascist doctrine"? Maybe he just disagrees with your worldview. Get him a book on personal finance and investing. Obviously he will be taking care of you when you're elderly.
Social Networking Sites: Full of fascists actively trying to recruit people into fascism
Social Media Sites: Full of videos and memes pushing fascism
Governments Around the World: Increasingly giving into or controlled by naked fascists
You: "Have you considered financial literacy?"
What the fuck, dude?
Tell me more about these naked fascist media sites. Do you have any examples?
I'm not sure what order you read my reply in, but it wasn't linear, was it?
Well, I guess it’s time to choose between
I really, really hope you’ve got the guts to admit you’ve been juicing on hyperbole.
How the fuck can you see the results of the last US election and the rhetoric on the right and say stupid shit like this?
Probably has something to do with them not being particularly intelligent.