Is it a reasonable expectation to check peoples profiles when commenting on their comments to ensure I am pronouning them correctly?
Looks like my account was banned/restricted for the above interaction, have already sent the mods on world an email asking if they'd be willing to reverse that. Had an episode of psychosis a few months ago where I did say some offensive stuff, (understandably) got a 3 month ban on .lol for that, so could see my account having been flagged.
I uh, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect people to check others profiles to ensure we are correctly pronouning them… when making a throw away comment that is less than 10 words involving a ludicrously common saying. Jerboa does not show users pronouns. I could switch to an app that DOES show the pronouns, do any Lemmings have a recommendation for a free Lemmy mobile app that has that feature?
Edit: Edie chimed in, Jerboa does show pronouns. It's a formatting issue with mobile vs browser (She has them on individual text lines so they don't appear on mobile).
Was just going to respond to the user in question to let them know I wasn't purposefully trying to offend that individual, to discover I'm not able to post or make comments on world now, so figured I'd see what y'alls opinion on the matter is.
You weren't misgendering; you were meming. Modifying one part of "the man, the myth, the X" to adapt it to the situation is fine and good, but when you start swapping out too much of it ("the X, the myth, the Y" -- or worse, "the X, the Y, the Z") you lose the reference.
Yeah that's my thought. It's an expression. I've said things like "c'mon man" to people IRL I know to be women, without complaint. If I was using the word "man" in this kind of way and the person I was saying it to asked me not to, I would of course respect their wishes and stop doing it to them, but I've not seen it happen before.
But a third person coming in to whinge when the person I was talking to had no complaint? 🙄
(As a side note, with this specific expression I quite like the alternative of "the ma'am…". That helps it scan exactly the same as the original phrase.)
And other people deliberately use all of the "come on man" and "Hey mate" and "Dude is not gendered" explicitly at trans people, because it lets them get away with misgendering. So trans people, who experience that stuff every day, can be a little sensitive when someone does that, even if they aren't doing it deliberately.
In this case, not knowing the person, and not having access to their pronouns, the comment was fine. But once you know it's an issue, repeating it despite knowing it's an issue is a shitty thing to do.
Doesn’t really matter here. The saying is “the man, the myth, the legend”. If you go changing every part of it you might as well have not said anything at all because it won’t make any sense.
Agree. Some expressions become so iconic they get genderless. Just like sometimes it's accept to use "man" and "dude" as a genderless exclamation
I once got a temporary ban on another platform for arguing/suggesting that dude has become genderless.
I know multiple woman that use "dude" that way, but some people are somewhat understandably sensitive on the topic of gender.
it depends a lot on context tbh, usually its fine but you can kinda tell when someone is calling you a dude to be an ass
Regardless of your opinion on whether dude has become genderless or not (I also use dude for my friends of any gender), the word is a gendered term that has become ubiquitous. If someone doesn't want me to use "dude" referring to them, I won't. It's not good to assume, so until I know that someone doesn't mind, I'm not going to use gendered terms contrary to their gender. I wouldn't call a man "sis" or "girl" the same way I would women I'm friends with, unless I know that doesn't make them uncomfortable. I wouldn't call a woman "bro" or "guy" the same way I would men I'm friends with unless I checked. All of those terms are gender nonspecific for me, but they might make someone who doesn't have my lived experience uncomfortable.
The Ma'am the myth the legend is right there though :D
I'm probably a bit further to the right than most on the fediverse with this opinion but...
I think, once you have been informed of someone's pronouns, it's flat out rude to not use them. I don't know if it's a banning issue but that's for the moderators on your instance to decide or the instance the community is on. Even if you don't agree with someone's lifestyle, it's just polite to address people the way they'd like to be addressed.
But surely there's a difference between intentional misuse and accidental. I think banning someone for not looking up someone's pronouns before a public interaction seems like pushing things a bit far here. I certainly am not checking such things. But, then in general when online I will use gender neutral wording because frankly, for online interactions someone's rarely information that matters for the interaction. I don't really need to know.
My view is, I think it is almost always clear when someone is being malicious and thus transphobic and when someone makes an honest mistake/did not know better. We, as a whole, really should be differentiating between obviously malicious and non-malicious cases.
Yaa that is similar to my viewpoint, though I am also a cis, white, blonde, blue eyed, tall, male, so my experiences/opinions are coming through the privilege lenses absolutely :| Having to deal with conversations like this all the time with "normies", can imagine people who are deep into such social circles get tired of dealing with the acting-in-bad faith bullshitters.
Rule #21 of the internet: everyone is a guy
Addition 1: every women is actually a guy
Addition 2: every kid is an 18+ guy
Addition 3: little girls are FBI Agents
What about the dogs on the Internet? I thought everyone was actually a dog.
Yes, but it's a guy dog.
Usually when I make a mistake while trying to act in good faith, I apologize. Posting about the interaction without apology and flashing names of non-mods involved is not the way to correct your mistake, nor to garner sympathy.
I did apologize to the mod I emailed. Not looking for sympathy, frankly I was more interested from a technical perspective as to why her pronouns aren't showing on Jerboa, but they were on the browser.
Browsers will collapse white space, line breaks are converted to spaces.
Jerboa does not collapse white space, and instead rendered the display name with the line breaks. But, one possible reason is that, the area for usernames/display names can only display 1 line, so all of the pronouns got cut off.
That wasn't your question though. If a technical jerboa question is what you intended to ask, about 90% of your post didn't need to be included and the question in the title needed to be very different.
As to your edit, I would not recommend PM'ing the user directly; that may be very unwelcome and further breach rules of that community. Personally, I would have asked the mods for a chance to edit my comment and apologize publicly. But with previous history of your self-described "psychosis", if I were the mod I would be skeptical of your motivations.
Ya the admin of Blajah made a solid point that I should have anonymized the post, I rarely post/comment, so not super familiar with the etiquette. Definitely will keep that in mind in the future. & hey my person, there are a lot of severe mental disorders other than gender dysphoria that exist out there :|
You are supposed to do deep research on the person you're commenting to....
I barely even read usernames, plus Voyager App doesn't show profile bios, so even if I wanted to check their profile I can't and I'm sure as fuck not using the mobile website to get the information.
Same. Voyager doesn't show it, I'll do my best, but I'm not going to feel bad when I miss
That's why I just stick with they/them, anyone who gets annoyed about me using that isn't worth the energy, it's an anonymous message board, I don't know you, that's my purse!
Dumbass here gets it!
Remember kids, moron is a genderless word that can be applied to anyone!
That's not an excuse nor justification for misgendering anyone, neutral pronouns exist, use them.
If you tell me I will use them, I'm not a mind reader, I'm a dumbass with an internet connection.
If you get upset by someone using non gender neutral pronouns in general speech I don't think you're old enough to be on the Internet, and if you are we need to raise the age of access.
I'm not even interested in the username of the person I'm responding to. I tend to ignore it completely unless there's a comment like "lol, username checks out".
There are very few times I will bother to check someones profile. They have to either say something so awesome that I want to see more, or have given a take so hot I want to see if they're trolling or if this is standard behaviour for them.
While it looks like the whole Jerboa/"miscommunication" thing has been sorted out here I want to chime in to say that no, I don't think that checking profiles for anything is a reasonable expectation.
If somebody corrects you about gender, just say woops, correct yourself, and move on. It's an honest mistake, a simple fix, and nobody should be offended. Especially online. If they are still offended, it's because they want to be.
I think the issue here is that it wasn't a case of "somebody corrects you about their gender". It was "a third unrelated person comes in and rudely yells at you that you should have already known not to use a turn of phrase".
The user's pronouns were in her username, OP's client just doesn't display additional lines.
Especially since in this case it was not even the person that was misgendered that called it out. Maybe the original person doesn't even care.
If you don't mind answering, what sort of surgery did you get for a NB transition?
Going to dig through your comment history later, im curious to see what has been said o.o reminds me of the greentext of the black guy telling a story at a party of all white people, and he says the N word and a white girl asks him to not say that as it makes her uncomfortable and the black dude mentally is like "?????? Are you fr?.."
Telling people not to do something when it makes you uncomfortable, for sure, that's adulting 101. Hoooowever... Feel that shows how much social interaction that gal has actually had with African Americans outside of a professional setting.. not much :|
If any human gets upset about cultural appropriation, they're not smart enough to continue engaging with. That whole karenesque idea should've died when it was about braids in white peoples hair.
Drag agrees, Lemmy is very cruel to trans people. Drag gets so many people yelling at drag for using drag's first person neopronouns. So many people insisting drag's pronouns are third person and making it into an argument.
Drag threw me for a loop the first time drag replied to me. I assumed it was a bit at first because this is the Internet and all, but I looked at drag's history to see what the story was, since it's not like anyone gives an introduction before commenting.
Other than the pronouns, Drag's posts are like anyone else's. Nothing was trollish, and Drag has explained drag's pronouns a few times. It's interesting to see drag's idea is to create something simpler, but as it is not very English in structure, it sounds very strange at first. I think I've gotten the idea now, though I have had to make a few corrections as I type this.
First, I think people should be able to be whoever they want to be, especially online, if they aren't doing things to be jerks. Drag has not done anyone wrong that I've seen. So if Drag asks me to call drag by something, why wouldn't I? Drag has engaged with me in a friendly way, so I owe drag the same.
Second, I enjoy it as a creative exercise. It keeps my mind engaged while writing what would otherwise be a bland reply. It's kind of fun to see language experience some flexibility and evolution, and if it honestly makes Drag feel better about drag's self, I can accommodate that. If you can't abide that, just move on and let Drag live drag's life.
Even though most of us are liberal here, it doesn't mean we're free of bias or not stuck in our own ways. Even if we don't get something, it doesn't hurt us to cooperate with someone that it does make sense to. That's just my feelings though.
Based and I-also-have-over-a-thousand-US-dollars-of-bad-dragon-pilled.
I supposed I left myself open for something like this! 🤣
Oh I meant you’re based for being chill, and I myself have an unreasonable amount of dragon dildos hahahaha
Ahh, well from what I hear, they make a top quality product, so I'm glad you're giving yourself the best!
I never check usernames or comments. It is about the conversation at hand.
I assume sone people are sensitive of pronouns if they have transitioned or altered their pronouns, but simple catch phrases should not get you banned--if it was clearly not harrassment.
I try to be cautious of gendering and use they/them when possible, but also i feel individual people need to realize the world does not revolve around just them as an egocentric bubble, and sometime shit happens and you have to deal with your feelings about it, and either A) ask for what you need, or B) move on. Having mods protect your feelings for a perceived slight does not prepare you for the outside world of actual interaction with humans.
Again, anyone please don't take this as condoning purposeful harassment, bullying of those not in the boomer view of gender. I grew up as a cismale that did not follow the normal idea of what a boy or man is. I was the artsy, poetry type that had mostly female friends. This caused toxic males to label me gay. Cuz gay to hang out with women, LOL.
On a funny note my as a bearded man standing at the pharmacy counter, my pharmaciat called me "Sir Or Madame" as one phrase. They clearly had just taken a course on inclusivity, or have something in them that made them respond per the exact script corporate presented. There wasn't even a need to address me with an honorific, they could have just said Next, or I can help you now.
No.
I don’t think it’s necessary to check every profile for potential pitfalls when interacting with them. But honestly, in this case there is an obvious transgender flag in the profile name that should make you at least question your first assumption.
Do trans men have a different flag?
I don't think there is. The transgender flag is for anyone that is trans. There are transfemme and transmasc specific flags (though they aren't in Unicode so they can't be used like I do the trans flag). Do note that transfemme / -masc does not mean transgender woman and man, they describe how one would like to present and/or express themselves.
What percentage of the populace do you think knows what the transgender flag looks like? :|
well if you didn't know now you do and can avoid this kind of interaction again if your so worried about it
The online percentage.
65% is my guess.
Globally? Dawg... how many countries in Asia and Africa is gay marriage even legal in, let alone some semblance and awareness of transgenderism.
Not globally, but on lemmy. I assumed that’s what you meant.
No, if they want to be gendered appropriately, they should have it in their username.
It did. OP's client doesn't display it. It's pure miscommunication.
I do! And they isn't one of them...
Besides that, I do accept that OP couldn't see my pronouns, it isn't their fault that I deliberately tried to fuck with my display name, and that their app then honours the newlines I put in there but truncates it to one line.
Apologies! I couldn't see any pronouns from the image so defaulted to gender nonspecific they. Edited.
I generally just use gender neutral language. I would check the person's bio before using a phrase like that tho, especially if they have a trans flag emoji in their name
That being said, getting banned/restricted for that comment alone seems a bit extreme to me tho
Nah it can’t be expected
I've had people flip out at me on Lemmy for 'misgendering' it's so ridiculous.
Like we don't know if it's a man or woman. It's the internet, yknow?
If you don't know then why are you using gendered pronouns for them?
I actually wasn't but that's a different story
And when you speak up about how useless all of this is your comment might get removed :O
I recommend sticking to gender nonspecific instead of defaulting to masculine.
God I hate it when people call animals "they". Like "the dog doesn’t like their squeaky toy" - it’s a dog! Call it "it"! "The dog doesn’t like its squeaky toy"
If they say "the goose doesn't like his ball" that is misgandering.
To be fair, some languages outside of English reserve "it" (or the equivalent 3rd person neuter pronoun) for "non-living" things. For people whose native language is one of those languages, calling an animal "it" may seem a bit too harsh even while speaking English.
It don't like your comment...
"The dog likes his squeaky toy."
Like everyone is fighting over gender in human race, I would like that you finally understand that dogs/cats/cows even the squirrel in your garden... Those are sentient living beings... Stop treating them like just a fucking object !
But even in English - if you are completely gender neutral - "the human does not like its work in the office" is the same.
That is simply incorrect English, words have more referents than gender. Traditionally "it" is reserved for non-human things of all types, but definitely does not ever apply to a human, and calling someone an "it" without it first being requested by them is near-universally recognized as a dehumanizing insult.
Hummm... Maybe I don't get all the grammatical rules in English, but it's really disheartening to treat living beings as objects.
As I remember
Itis an article for objects and I would never consider my dog as an non-living object. He's way more "human" than most people that I have encountered in my life.I know that for some people it's quite a struggle. Whether it is their focus, lazyness, energy levels, unwillingness during their toilet time or something else.
So, I'd say no. That's part of why I usually just go for they/them. Just like when you don't know someone's pronouns irl
Then there are those of us who grew up in an era where usernames either didn't matter or didn't exist (depending on the platform), so you quickly became conditioned to just not reading their name let alone clicking into their whole account to see who they are. I am guilty of it, but people looking at your profile is creepy.
I know that on Reddit before I left, the only time I ever took a good hard look at someone else's account is if they said something that made me so unbelievably angry that I had to look at everything else they said to find something to clap back with. By the time I would get partway through their post history, I would realize that I let a random stranger on the internet tilt me and then I'd calm down and feel stupid for a while before going back to my own business.
We are all strangers on the internet. Let's keep it that way.
Right, do tell me how "semperverus" or "edie" tells me anything about gender? Yes, I know my profile is empty with just some comments, feel free to be as creeped out as you like.
Looking trough your profile I can't figure out your gender either. Just a fanatic use of slurs
Just stop giving a fuck, there's a metric shitton of crazies doing janny work, it's unpaid and very unsatisfying. If they ban you, it's either their instance's loss or nobody's. The account costs nothing because it's worth next to nothing. I don't even need the links that I myself post and the others' I can see even if they ban my account. This is a shitpile, it being in the fediverse doesn't make it less of a shitpile.
Uh, yes, but its a mutual misunderstanding from both sides...
I think you shouldn't assume everyone on the internet to be a man. It is misogynistic. I don't think there would be anything wrong with e.g. referring gender neutrally to someone who turns out to be a woman because you didn't check her profile which says she's a woman, but it is annoying to see people assume everyone on the internet to be male. I've especially experienced this in more techy communities which definitely seems like sexist stereotyping to me.
That's a pretty reasonable misunderstanding, I don't speak for anyone but myself but generally as long as there's no malice involved I'm not upset by an accidental misgendering.
I'm on jerboa too and didn't even know there were specific pronouns on accounts, I just chucked mine in my bio.
There aren't specific pronouns. One can just use the display name option to add pronouns
Generally I wouldn't take that kind of thing too seriously from hexbears they love conflict and actively seek it out
I lurk quite a bit, rarely comment or post. Have seen a lot of complaints about the Hexbearers, didn't think they were too bad (well there are accounts on there that do seem to like to push Russian/Chinese talking points frequently + consistently). However overall the community provides some high quality content/insight.
I'm sure 80% of them are lovely people, but the minority are so damn loud and travel in packs
I personally try to avoid gendered language, but if I do use it, I tend to check their profile-bio :)
Using a client that shows the pronouns in hexbear is good and it sounds like you are doing that now.
As a follow up, I recommend approaching gender just as one would if they were bring mindful with new people. If you don't know pronouns, using they/them is a fine way to start referring to someone neutrally. You can also just use their name. It is considerate to then figure out what they prefer in a non-awkward way, either by how others talk or by just asking them nicely. Having pronouns displayed by names is just helpful for clarity and speeding things up online.
when unsure or lazy i use they/them
Sometimes moderation is ridiculous. More “zealous” moderation teams just strike everyone relentlessly. Usually the kind of people that make boomers label every young people as snowflakes
Back when I was on Reddit, on the LTT subreddit, I started reading rumours that formerly known as Anthony (I am here meming with the whole X ordeal), had transitioned into Emily, and I checked the website sorta confused. I thought it was just a mistake or a joke until I saw it actually confirmed. So I did that whole party meme with me at the corner not realising that he had transitioned into she, and everyone else already having congratulated her. This got me banned.
I just checked the apps I use, and sync shows display names properly.
yes, it takes 2 seconds and minimal effort.
Whatever your thoughts on the original situation, you know her pronouns now, and you've directly reposted the thing that got you banned. This time around, you don't have an excuse. You know that it's an issue, but you didn't anonymise the post, effectively sharing the misgendering with even more people
The misgendering, and the fact that it was accidental, is the point of the post. If anything OP is sharing her correct gender with "even more people", and creating a discussion where we can think about how to stop this happening in future both to this individual, and on Lemmy in general. Why would you want to shut that down?
It could easily have been anonymised. The conversation can happen without misgendering someone a second time around.
Literally just edit the person's name out of the image, and boom, same discussion, but this time without repeating the same mistake
You are correct I should have anonymized the post, will keep that in mind in the future.
I don't necessarily agree with your previous message, but I do agree it's a bit unfair to include the identity of the person who was misgendered in this post. It isn't even a guarantee that they were the person who took serious issue with what OP said. They may not have even reported OP. So it seems unfair to call them out, even if the intent was to provide context.
And yet, in that little whine right there, you managed to use the very gender neutral pronoun that would have saved you all this hassle (including the hassle you're making up of having to go and look up the pronouns of every individual you interact with).
So you know it exists, and you know how to use it, but you decided to try and be funny instead, and it backfired.
You misgendered someone, and now have to deal with the most minor of minorest consequences for harm you caused to another.
You are still free to create 100 different accounts on 100 different instances, just not the one where you broke the rules. No one owes you a platform, deal with it.
Your choice now is to double down and make it worse, or you can be an adult, admit you made a mistake, and learn from it for the future so you don't repeat it.
I dare to say you have already chosen, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Technically OP is free to create another account on that same instance.
Just be more careful with gendered language. Also, the trans flag was right there
I did not know that was the trans flag. Appreciate ya letting me know >_<
“The them, the myth… the X”. Forsure, that does seem more meme anyways.
Happy to help, and don't feel down for the restriction, in today's hellworld where people's identities are constantly and violently challenged it's hard to not be jumpy when something doesn't seem right
I was staring at that username for quite a bit after reading the comment saying that it was in their username. I did not get it, either.
Even knowing that there's a trans flag, and that that's what is in the username, I wouldn't know what pronouns to use.
Maybe a stupid question, but how do I tell from the flag whether that's a trans fem or trans masc?
You don't but you'll know that it probably matter that you get it right
There are no stupid questions, but the one you should ask yourself is "should i try to use gender neutrale language and/or check their bio or should i not care and risk hurting someone?"
If you care about not hurting people, you'll find the right answer, and if an honest mistake happens, own it and people will generally be understandable. It's really not that different from common courtesy, it just isn't the norm yet
I personally prefer to stick to gender neutral language in general. Maybe it's my autism, but a lot of the time profiles don't help me much unless there are preferences are listed explicitly
I too stick to gender neutral language in general, it just feels better to do so when i don't know who is "in front" of me. When profiles don't help I think it's best to not assume anything and just speak neutrally
So, to be clear, you want people to treat trans people differently than everyone else?