The owners take advantage of our commons, tear up our roads, and succeeded because of domestic infrastructure, only to refuse to pay full price for labor and allowing even those wages, in lieu of the taxes they bribe our government to enact loopholes to dodge, to "trickle down" domestically as their always bullshit yay market capitalism talking points lied?
It's absolutely clownshoes that outsourcing labor/manufacturing is allowed, not because of domestic shortages for a skill, but to explicitly pay pennies on the dollar for the employees you need and screw the country you don't want to pay taxes to despite record profits even harder.
It's insane. But we let the owner class dictate whatever they want here, and our well bribed government will even sell it for them by calling it "something something freedom" while never mentioning social consequences, accountability, or responsibility. We aren't so much a country as a piggy bank and cudgel for the global owner class.
But capitalism has to go with them. Because as it is, the owner class already enjoys a borderlees world, while manipulating those borders against everyone else.
Borders exist solely to maintain and enhance the power of a nation state's elite. If a people allow an elite class to rise without check, borders will always be inevitable.
Here, for certain industries (might be all but I don't have first hand accounts of that), the contractors must make sure that the companies/freelancers they employ pay their taxes, otherwise, they are on the hook for it.
Do the same. If a company outsource work, they should prove that they pay the same as they would in their region, and if it not, be hit hard by fines and/or jail time.
Should apply to that as well if they're interacting with the US market. All the way through subcontractors to the end employee. No hiding behind contracting local companies.
i don't like outsourcing either, but realistically the machine of capitalism isn't going to allow you to be rid of it in its entirety
honestly i don't even know if getting rid of multinational organisations is on the whole a good thing, and that's the only way i can see of getting rid of outsourcing
Outsourcing entirely being gone isn't realistic... But there's a huge difference between moving an entire team of say developers to India and having a worker teleconference in to be a cashier. Anyone directly interacting with a customer or end user in any capacity should be paid the same as a local employee in the location they're "working".
Remember when we learned that Amazon's "just put it in your cart to buy" algorithm was really just a bunch of people in India watching you shop on the store surveillance system? That was, like 3 months ago maybe??
We may not agree with it, but this is exactly the same thing as an overseas call center. They're not physically located in the US and are not subject to any laws here.
Also, y'all are thinking of what $3 buys in the US. The purchasing power is far different. $3 buys a lot over there.
You misunderstand. We aren't unaware or ignoring the purchasing power difference, that's obvious, everyone knows currency differs. The issue is and always has been the outsourcing to increase profit in general, regardless of country or purchasing disparity. There is no reason to use a teleconferenced cashier for a retail location other than minimizing employee pay, not just by paying the minimum required here but literally taking a local job and shipping it overseas so you can instead pay what would be a clear poverty wage here, while undoubtedly having record profits like all these companies end up with.
We aren't unaware or ignoring the purchasing power difference, that's obvious, everyone knows currency differs. The issue is and always has been the outsourcing to increase profit in general, regardless of country or purchasing disparity
This makes it sound like your problem isn’t someone getting hurt; it’s someone doing well.
Everyone complains about small businesses being driven out, especially in NYC. Their two biggest costs are rent and labor, so of course they try to minimize both of them.
So, there actually is a reason to do this beyond pay, but clearly pay is the actual reason they do it.
A restaurant has a set amount of staff. What happens if a few are sick and they have trouble finding someone to fill in?
A remote agent like this could be from a larger organization being contracted out and you'd never have to worry about not having someone to be available.
Edit: 1 person could even be managing multiple stores where they queue the person to assist you as it detects you approaching. Less ideal would be 'someone will be available in 45 seconds' type queuing.
Or they just hire enough staff to run the business in the first place. Something that used to just be how you operated a business. If the business wants to gamble on regularly operating without enough employees to cover multiple sick calls then they need to deal with the results of that decision.
Pull from other locations to cover, or God forbid, a manager actually covers a shift, or just close the location for a day if they cannot cover it. You know, what every business that operates with employees deals with.
You're making excuses and trying to find a justification for a fucking disgraceful, greedy choice by the owner of this business.
No I'm not, you're just jumping to conclusions. I clearly said it's obviously about the pay.
The actual idea has potential merit like it or not. It doesn't have to be scummy. It could be a US based corporation that pays US employees the same or more than what they'd get paid to be there in person.
The employee as I said could be managing more than 1 store, thus be providing more valuable work, and thus earning even more than they'd be earning at the restaurant, or 711, or wherever.
And they could be doing it from the comfort of their home making for a happier employee.
It just turns out that the way this has been implemented has been terrible and exploitative.
Edit: it could even be numerous ipad based kiosks around a mall where you could talk to someone and ask questions about the mall, without having to find and go to the info booth that's in a single spot (that could also have an actual person there for those that want that). There'd always be someone available since there'd be multiple people for multiple malls all trained on each mall.
Why would anyone who works for money shill for the benefit of the rent seeker?
Have you seen nearly Facebook America? They regularly vote against their own interests. Wouldn't surprise me at all that the same people are the ones barely making ends meet, are advocating against unions, being pro corporate business, and laughing all the way to bankruptcy and homelessness day by day because it makes them feel superior to just one person.
Depends on the region, lowest is about 350 php or 6 usd per day. Most of the call centers are in the big cities however where wages are a bit higher and they well enough to be thought of as a decent job.
Actually, it could be. That could be considered vandalism (you're intentionally making unauthorized modifications to equipment to prevent it from working as expected) which is illegal.
But this is New York, so who knows if they would even enforce that.
So people can just unplug cables at data centers because it's "$0 property damage criminal mischief"?
Come on, their lawyers would (successfully) argue that they experienced loss of revenue for any amount of time their remote cashier system was not connected and operational...
adding that she splits tips with her manager and kitchen staff at the restaurant.
They don't even let her keep her entire tips. The whole situation is fucked. Somebody mentioned in the article also brought up a great point...
“Today, this is a Filipino woman behind a screen, controlling a POS system — but it’s not crazy to believe that probably in the next six to twelve months, this could be an AI avatar doing all the same things,” he said.
Well yeah. When you eat at a restaurant, and tip, generally you’re not intending to tip the solely the cashier.
Before chanting along with the hate chant just think for a second. When’s the last time you tipped a cashier, with the intention of the tip going to the cashier and none of the rest of the staff?
Um...yes I do. If I enjoy the service of one particular waiter, I expect that the tip (at least the majority of it, let's say around 75-90% if not 100% of it) goes to the waiter who served me. If I'm tipping a cashier, I just give him a few bucks and tell him to pocket it discreetly.
They are not physically in the US, and probably work listed as some sort of overseas contractor. Whatever wages they earn are from their employer who contracts for the restaurant.
There's a movie called Eurotrip. Its about 3 college aged kids taking a road trip through Europe.
I forget what country they get to, but it's a run down mostly Indian country. They stay at a hotel, and the bell hop handles their bags. They try to give him a tip, but realize they only have like 17 cents. So he gives him a nickle, and says "Its not much, but maybe having some American money is novel."
The bellhop is shocked. Made to look like he's angry. So the bellhops boss is just walking by. This is after his interaction with the main characters are done. His boss starts yelling at him. And he yells "FUCK YOU! YOU SEE THIS??? I GOT A NICKLE!!! I OPEN MY OWN HOTEL!!!" And the boss is horrified. He says something like "For a nickle, that hotel will be the nicest in (whatever country they were in)."
Your take away here is that Americans are the real victims? If we are talking about countries, theres not many that have caused as much suffering and death as America. We just do it for money instead of religion.
America exploits the rest of the world, full stop.
America exploits the rest of the world, full stop.
South America, west Africa, some of the Middle East, yea. Rest of the world, not that much. Out of any conquering army, the US installed regimes have been a bit above the Soviets. Japan and West Germany did great, SK had a tyrannical dictator, so was Chiang-Kai Shek- though the US nowhere near installed him. But neither the Kim's nor Mao were much better. South Vietnam was propped up by the US but created because of the French. Ho Chi Minh may not have been that bad, and his replacements were ok. Pol Pot was very bad though. Lets not talk about the Soviet invasions of Poland, Budapest, and Prague. And even before that how they forced out previous democratic governments. Basically all the Soviet regimes in Europe sucked(Tito may have been ok, but wasn't Soviet). Not to mention actions in Mongolia and Central Asia.
If we were to mention British, French, and Spanish empires too. I'd say US world order is a bit above average compared to other world orders- especially in more recent years. Definitely not defending a lot of CIA actions abroad and FBI actions domestically.
I would rather use a POS terminal than try to talk to someone over zoom with no headphones. If it's not a human in person who can just say "hmmm the computer is broken here's your sandwich" then it's worse.
I know you are being cheeky.. But you are using their lingo. It is strategic as it skips the the perp ie the rent seeker looking to underpay for labour.
You know how fake teevee always got NYC migrant bussing story?
But we never hear about migrants being bussed into the heartland to work in meat packing or some other hard work.
This shit has got to be outlawed. Companies are doing this across the board. Literally skirting labor laws, outsourcing jobs that should be going to us citizens, all to just continue pouring more money into the tops pockets. When will we have all had enough?
It's a simple enough solution in this case. They are performing the work of employees, so for all intents and purposes, they are employees. They are directly interacting with US customers at a physical location within the US. Their place of work is that physical location, even if they are not physically present. They need authorization to work in the US, and the minimum wage laws applicable to that location applies to these workers.
All that is missing is the lawsuit under existing labor laws, which they will probably lose.
Sounds like something the Department of Labour could legislate... Or could have.
But the supreme court just ruled that this falls under the courts jurisdiction and there's a snowflakes chance in hell that a case pushed high and far enough will result in those ghouls will rule in favour of labour interests.
Yeah, I don't think SCOTUS would side with an IRS or Labour Department rule requiring businesses pay minimum wage. But you're forgetting the "racist" angle: the courts would love nothing more than to support a State Department determination that they are "immigrant workers" and require a work visa.
It's usually impossible not to, because we have no visibility into the supply chain or there's no other options. In this case, it's impossible to ignore.
Are there movements in the US or globally to force all business into worker coops? Unions are good but I think this is their ultimate limitation, that employers can just offshore their jobs
Argentina has somewhat of a history of workers seizing their factories. I think it would be extremely hard in the U.S. due to the well-funded police. Generally, I guess the movement would be "anarcho-syndicalism."
Edit: misremembered worker factory takeovers in the past as occurring in Venezuela instead of Argentina.
Thanks. I didn't know about Venezuela's history at all. But I meant not more on a policy level to mandate that all companies must be owned equally by employees instead of shareholders
By that hyper-simplistic "logic" people shouldn't be forced into prison if they murder someone.
Clearly some kinds of forcing in some situations are "good", and if some are good but other not, that means the real discussion is all about "when is forcing right and when is it not?" something that childlike "logic" of yours doesn't even begin to address.
The meme is right, the claim of belonging is complete bullshit. Your toothbrush and your home belong to you, a business involving multiple people belongs to everyone involved. The idea that it doesn't is narcissism and evil.
It rightfully belongs to the workers. The firm is basically a vehicle for appropriating the positive and negative product of production. The just basis of property is getting the positive and negative fruits of your labor (i.e. the labor theory of property). In a capitalist employer-employee relationship, the employer gets solely holds the whole product while workers are denied their claim to it despite it being a result of their labor.
Forcing is absolutely good. We force companies to do all kinds of things, in terms of corporate governance (publicly traded companies must have their finances audited, for example), ownership (banks used to be prevented from buying stock so that they would not avoid calling in bad debt), and how they do business (collusion between big tech to keep salaries down for example).
Having no actual person guarding your business is a recipe for theft. If this catches on it will be so much easier to steal from places. I'm ok with this
You shouldnt ever try to protect the cash register at your place of work. They give 0 fucks about you and will have a job posting up before your body is cold.
Fact but it does not negate that physically present employees deters some crime.
High traffic grocery stores who put in self check outs are staffing several guards now and put in some clown fences and gates...
But hey guy who put in self check and guy fired cashiers both got bonus...
Guy hiring security and putting fences also got bonus. These clowns will pay anyone any amount of money as long they don't pay the worker for the actual job.
I remember working in a store and a guy walked through the scanner at the door and it went off, the other employee looked at me and was like "that guy stole something, hey?" And I was just like "yep" and we went back to whatever we were doing lol
Can confirm, if they give any appearance of being human, even for years on end, it's a lie, they are complete psychopaths and will throw you into the fire not even to save themselves, just to feel slightly less insecure.
The recommended course of action in a robbery is to follow instructions and hand over anything they ask for. If they grab product and walk out of the store, don't try to stop them. This is actually less of an insurance liability than having an actual person there.
Yes but in general people are less likely to steal if there is a person standing in front of them watching. I'm not even talking about robbery just people stealing a candy bar or whatever. If it's just sitting out with no one around people will take it.
Working as a graphic designer in the US since the early 2000's, every employer I ever worked for eventually used Fiverr to pay someone overseas a fraction of what they paid me to do the same work. This doesn't seem meaningfully different.
Not saying this is okay, just that it's not even remotely (no pun intended) a new problem.
There was an article that exposed Amazons cashier-less stores were just bunch of Indians overseas reviewing footage because their classification algorithms failed half the time
No, that is just a pre-recorded message. I once went through a mcdonald's drive thru that had just closed. They asked me for my order and after I gave it, I realized no one was in the restaurant. I pulled around and they asked me again every time I stopped at the order point, but there was no cars in the lot.
For different reasons though. In japan it's for small restaurants which don't employ many people or don't have a lot of space or both. For McDonald's it's for pinching a dollar more for their empire.
That only works if consumers organize and have discipline. Like a boycott. Were talking about americans here, they wont bother unless its a trans woman
Not knowing the law in the US I guess it is fully legal. Given that there is no union or chain responsibility in the supply chain or similar to GDPR in EU you guys are fucked until someone abuse the system one way or another.
On the other hand it shows work from home is feasible even with these kind of things.
I hope it's just supplemental. Like have one cashier and when it's busy have one remote in to help for a period of time (card only payments) then log out. Could have a 3rd party company manage a group of online employees to rotate between places worldwide.
Still don't think I'm cool with it but seems inevitable unless AI just replaces all of them quicker than expected
I have bad eye sight...I read the screen behind her as "Japanese fried children" suddenly I knew I had misread that. Like there's no way New York would stoop that low and be that cruel to children. I corrected myself before any other thought occurred actually. But it was momentarily disturbing.
If a remote worker can actually do the job at a high enough level, then the writing is on the wall.
Globalization will eventually take over those roles and laws that try to prop up a local worker will end up like Oregon's old law that says you can't pump your own gas.
The only way to 'win' is to equip the local guy with skills that absolutely cannot be done remotely, or educate him to do things at a level unmatched by the remote worker coming from another culture.
If my initial reaction is “that’s too bad”, does it make me greedy?
Like, I don’t think US workers are more deserving as human beings than anyone else… but a part of me knows hardcore globalization would hurt people geographically close to me… I’m like some national relativist or something?
I feel like I should want everyone to win regardless of where they were born. And $3/hr is huge vs. the $6/day min wage in parts of PH. Know friends’ friends are farming rice for six bucks a day.
the problem is it circumvents minimum wage laws. They're employing a person so they should be paying them the appropriate wages to do business in new york or the US. They're also benefitting from payroll/income taxes but not paying into the programs.
Are call centers the same way? And any company relying on Business Process Outsourcing (BPO) firms?
Would be a lotta layoffs overseas if we restricted all foreign labor making less than local minimum wage. Is that a fair trade off? (Not being facetious, genuine question again)
Oh one thing that’s kinda messed up is when tech companies go through consultancies to hire workers in India, the consulting companies take HALF!! Wild!
Yes it is a fair tradeoff. Any time we make a law we're raising the cost of goods and services here. If there's no regulation or import taxes to balance prices with outside the jurisdiction, then the "race to the bottom" de facto negates the law in question.
So if we ban XYZ here, but allow untaxed imports from countries with XYZ, then we haven't really banned it - we just moved it.
Everything in the US is already expensive, that "great wage going to a Filipino/a" is at the expense of a person in their own hometown not having a job.
Too bad? Put the shoe on your other foot. If we in the US ban imported rice to protect our farmers, would you and friends feel comfortable in that time things take to adjust? The loss of income?
How far does $6/day go in the Philippines? I can tell you how far it goes in NYC.
Things in america should be more expensive. We do not pay for the full cost of what all of our goods and services cost, mainly due to exploitative measures like in this post.
You can double down all you want but the real answer is that we just shouldn't be able to buy nearly as much stuff as we do. We love being consumers anf watching the trash heap grow, while we take advantage of anyone smaller than us in any remote corner of the Earth.
At no point have I ever said our excessive consumerism is good, only that people shouldn't be competing internationally for an in-person job.
Having been raised in NYC, I can tell you directly that the job market is a bit fierce, and I think offshoring basic service jobs is terrible for everyone involved, owner included.
I agree with your post but wanted to add that I think we are starting to realize the effects of cutting out relationships with people in our community.
I suppose thats just another aspect of offshoring that is problematic.
I don’t know what to think because I want everyone to win, but it’s hard to deny I’m biased towards my countrymen here stateside.
Re-reading my comment, did it sound like I meant:
it’s too bad this job is being outsourced
or
psh, too bad, this is the reality of a global world!
I did mean the first one.
I should want everyone to win but I’m biased towards Americans in situations like this - and I don’t know if I can justify it, if I can universalize the maxim.
I understood you meant the first one. I'm also biased towards the people of my former home city.
There are several sources that collude to raise prices for the average New Yorker, rent and food amongst them. I'm not at all blaming the lady taking the job remotely, there is pain in financing & operating the business, for the employees in getting to and from, and getting paid close to what their work is actually worth.
The bitch is that none of this system is voluntary. Work or starve, how inhumane.
Sure, it might be convenient, but our society is not structured in a way that allows this to work. We need deep, deep social support or people will suffer greatly
you: "Yeah I lost my job, but hey, now someone in India gets to earn a living...can you help me prop up my cardboard box to keep the rain out? thanks."
Jobs are not a finite resource. If there is a pool of people who want to work, someone will find stuff to pay them to do.
I seriously would love for my entire current set of job responsibilities to be automated. There are a couple of value-adding full-time jobs' worth of work I could be doing for my employer that are just being left on the table right now.
Well this is just absolutely untrue. If there's a pool of people who want to work then someone will just give them a job? what kind of magical unicorn world are you living in? So in your world unemployment rates just...don't exist or are a fabrication? those people are just lazy?
If you got fired from your job and you couldn't find another one, in your head, whose fault is that? yours? the mythical job provider who hasn't blessed you with another?
If I ran a business and was provided the option of hiring you or someone in another country for peanuts, I'd tell you to kick grass.
But you want to work I hear you say! someone HAS to pay me to do something! nope, I'm not going to pay you, I'm going to pay this kid in India or his brother that just got off the plane half of what I would have to pay you.
There will always be some level of unemployment (a percentage of people who want job a won't have found one), but if automation made the unemployment rate permanently go up, all the people who used to hand knit socks who lost jobs to powered looms, all the people who used to drive plows with oxen who lost jobs to combines, all the blacksmiths who lost jobs to powered forges, and equivalent percentage of the population for subsequent generations forever would remain unemployed. And yet, somehow, subsequent generations have managed to mostly find jobs.
I agree it sucks that anyone would lose their job, but why is the default of people in the "west" having well paid, air conditioned jobs, and other people getting those jobs stealing from them.
Since we're discussing the default, I'd assume average NYC everything. If a restaurant can't afford to pay minimum wage for the area, then I wouldn't assume their business is a good use of space.
shouldn't the federal minimum wage apply to everyone who is doing work in the US? This seems like fraud
how would you distinguish this from regular outsourcing
Outsourcing is the problem.
The owners take advantage of our commons, tear up our roads, and succeeded because of domestic infrastructure, only to refuse to pay full price for labor and allowing even those wages, in lieu of the taxes they bribe our government to enact loopholes to dodge, to "trickle down" domestically as their always bullshit yay market capitalism talking points lied?
It's absolutely clownshoes that outsourcing labor/manufacturing is allowed, not because of domestic shortages for a skill, but to explicitly pay pennies on the dollar for the employees you need and screw the country you don't want to pay taxes to despite record profits even harder.
It's insane. But we let the owner class dictate whatever they want here, and our well bribed government will even sell it for them by calling it "something something freedom" while never mentioning social consequences, accountability, or responsibility. We aren't so much a country as a piggy bank and cudgel for the global owner class.
Something something candlemaker’s petition
For those in WTF.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/candle-makers-petition.asp
Borders are violence
I agree, and I'm for dismantling them.
But capitalism has to go with them. Because as it is, the owner class already enjoys a borderlees world, while manipulating those borders against everyone else.
Borders exist solely to maintain and enhance the power of a nation state's elite. If a people allow an elite class to rise without check, borders will always be inevitable.
That the neat thing, you don't.
Here, for certain industries (might be all but I don't have first hand accounts of that), the contractors must make sure that the companies/freelancers they employ pay their taxes, otherwise, they are on the hook for it.
Do the same. If a company outsource work, they should prove that they pay the same as they would in their region, and if it not, be hit hard by fines and/or jail time.
But one can only dream I guess
Should apply to that as well if they're interacting with the US market. All the way through subcontractors to the end employee. No hiding behind contracting local companies.
i don't like outsourcing either, but realistically the machine of capitalism isn't going to allow you to be rid of it in its entirety
honestly i don't even know if getting rid of multinational organisations is on the whole a good thing, and that's the only way i can see of getting rid of outsourcing
Outsourcing entirely being gone isn't realistic... But there's a huge difference between moving an entire team of say developers to India and having a worker teleconference in to be a cashier. Anyone directly interacting with a customer or end user in any capacity should be paid the same as a local employee in the location they're "working".
A Telecashier is fucking stupid and ridiculous.
Remember when we learned that Amazon's "just put it in your cart to buy" algorithm was really just a bunch of people in India watching you shop on the store surveillance system? That was, like 3 months ago maybe??
yesssssss, but i don't know how you'd make a legal distinction between those two
then again i'm not a law talking guy so what do i know
Who said anything about that? We're just talking about putting tariffs on outsourced labor to correct for negative externalities.
This practice is rampant across industries and only getting worse. We must demand an end to it through legislation.
We may not agree with it, but this is exactly the same thing as an overseas call center. They're not physically located in the US and are not subject to any laws here.
They aren't doing work in the US though.
That is naive. I hope you don't have any employees
$3 is loads more than the Philippines minimum wage. I think it's $8-$10 per day.
Also, y'all are thinking of what $3 buys in the US. The purchasing power is far different. $3 buys a lot over there.
I'll ask my wife when she gets home, but I bet $3 is equivalent to $10-$12 in the US.
You misunderstand. We aren't unaware or ignoring the purchasing power difference, that's obvious, everyone knows currency differs. The issue is and always has been the outsourcing to increase profit in general, regardless of country or purchasing disparity. There is no reason to use a teleconferenced cashier for a retail location other than minimizing employee pay, not just by paying the minimum required here but literally taking a local job and shipping it overseas so you can instead pay what would be a clear poverty wage here, while undoubtedly having record profits like all these companies end up with.
This makes it sound like your problem isn’t someone getting hurt; it’s someone doing well.
Everyone complains about small businesses being driven out, especially in NYC. Their two biggest costs are rent and labor, so of course they try to minimize both of them.
You know what's cheaper than hiring a cashier and teleconferencing them from the Philippines?
The owner running the cash register. You know, like nearly every non-chain restaurant in the country.
Owner could be the chef, it you know, might not want to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week
Then don't open a restaurant if you can't even afford the minimal staff to run it.
They found a way to make it work.
So, there actually is a reason to do this beyond pay, but clearly pay is the actual reason they do it.
A restaurant has a set amount of staff. What happens if a few are sick and they have trouble finding someone to fill in?
A remote agent like this could be from a larger organization being contracted out and you'd never have to worry about not having someone to be available.
Edit: 1 person could even be managing multiple stores where they queue the person to assist you as it detects you approaching. Less ideal would be 'someone will be available in 45 seconds' type queuing.
Or they just hire enough staff to run the business in the first place. Something that used to just be how you operated a business. If the business wants to gamble on regularly operating without enough employees to cover multiple sick calls then they need to deal with the results of that decision.
Pull from other locations to cover, or God forbid, a manager actually covers a shift, or just close the location for a day if they cannot cover it. You know, what every business that operates with employees deals with.
You're making excuses and trying to find a justification for a fucking disgraceful, greedy choice by the owner of this business.
No I'm not, you're just jumping to conclusions. I clearly said it's obviously about the pay.
The actual idea has potential merit like it or not. It doesn't have to be scummy. It could be a US based corporation that pays US employees the same or more than what they'd get paid to be there in person.
The employee as I said could be managing more than 1 store, thus be providing more valuable work, and thus earning even more than they'd be earning at the restaurant, or 711, or wherever.
And they could be doing it from the comfort of their home making for a happier employee.
It just turns out that the way this has been implemented has been terrible and exploitative.
Edit: it could even be numerous ipad based kiosks around a mall where you could talk to someone and ask questions about the mall, without having to find and go to the info booth that's in a single spot (that could also have an actual person there for those that want that). There'd always be someone available since there'd be multiple people for multiple malls all trained on each mall.
I mean, yeah probably. That's not the point. The point is that it's a race to the bottom for people living in higher cost-of-living places.
I really don't care how much buying power they have over there. A fair days work here in the US should be paid in turn.
And flood the islands with US currency? Seems that would lead to massive inflation and hurt the people not working "in" the US.
So what your saying is they should be paid less because their currency is trash? That's a logical fallacy.
Well, if you’re gonna advocate for people, you should care what their experience is.
No, you can always advocate for someone to get paid more regardless of your knowledge of conversion rates.
Okay. Imagine the purchasing power of someone who made the NYC minimum wage of $16/hr.
Maybe pay people for their time, not what the exchange rate "might" be.
If I’m paying NYC minimum wages, I’m getting someone from NYC, in NYC.
Sorry lady from the Phillipines. You’re out of a job because they put in this new “outsourcing must be at local wage rates” law.
Do you think anybody in NYC would cry over this?
I am not sure why anyone in NYC would care about
Lol what is your angle here
Why are people from NYC more deserving of a job than her?
That ain't how this works. If somebody is has some sort of special skill that is needed or there is a shortage, fine.
But using foreign labor to lower wages locally, is just a bad policy for the state and for the workers, only people benefiting is the rent seeker.
Why would anyone who works for money shill for the benefit of the rent seeker?
Have you seen nearly Facebook America? They regularly vote against their own interests. Wouldn't surprise me at all that the same people are the ones barely making ends meet, are advocating against unions, being pro corporate business, and laughing all the way to bankruptcy and homelessness day by day because it makes them feel superior to just one person.
I know this isn't what you meant. But you know de-localizing jobs would probably have the effect of lowering rents.
And the people who are now employed, and their local community that they spend that money in.
Again why is someone in NYC more deserving of it than someone else?
Depends on the region, lowest is about 350 php or 6 usd per day. Most of the call centers are in the big cities however where wages are a bit higher and they well enough to be thought of as a decent job.
I would just unplug the camera and computer. Every day. Even if I wasn't buying anything.
Fuck this business.
Be sure to wear gloves.
Why?
Because a person 8000 miles away can't wipe down anything so the place has to be dirty
Ya because they totally won't cut corners to save a buck
Because you don't want to leave fingerprints behind when you unplug something on camera.
Secret…agent man!
Hi
Oh sorry, I didn’t mean you, not-so-secret agent man
It's not illegal to unplug something
Actually, it could be. That could be considered vandalism (you're intentionally making unauthorized modifications to equipment to prevent it from working as expected) which is illegal.
But this is New York, so who knows if they would even enforce that.
They can just plug it back in. It'll be ok.
Oh, I guess if you can just plug it back in, that just invalidates the downtime that was caused or data being lost.
Being able to undo vandalism doesn't make it suddenly not vandalism.
So people can just unplug cables at data centers because it's "$0 property damage criminal mischief"?
Come on, their lawyers would (successfully) argue that they experienced loss of revenue for any amount of time their remote cashier system was not connected and operational...
They use fingerprints for murder cases, not camera unplugging cases.
Also, this lady now has a job and you’re talking about ruining her job.
Man wtf is this shit jfc..
I'd presume they have a few cashiers from the Philippines but at least one person managing the store.
Boo for OP who didn't name and shame
https://nypost.com/2024/04/09/us-news/nyc-restaurants-use-zoom-cashiers-from-philippines/
They don't even let her keep her entire tips. The whole situation is fucked. Somebody mentioned in the article also brought up a great point...
What a shitty future we have.
From the article, Sansan Chicken, Sansan Ramen, and Yaso Kitchen, all in NY. (Since nobody has said it yet)
Well yeah. When you eat at a restaurant, and tip, generally you’re not intending to tip the solely the cashier.
Before chanting along with the hate chant just think for a second. When’s the last time you tipped a cashier, with the intention of the tip going to the cashier and none of the rest of the staff?
I never intend for them to go to the manager.
Um...yes I do. If I enjoy the service of one particular waiter, I expect that the tip (at least the majority of it, let's say around 75-90% if not 100% of it) goes to the waiter who served me. If I'm tipping a cashier, I just give him a few bucks and tell him to pocket it discreetly.
That's right folks, this is why you don't tip cashiers or anyone else for that matter unless they get sub min wage rate.
Zoom ID and pass are in the image tho 😄
Was about to say the same. Up vote instead.
this should be straight up illegal.
It's not only legal it's effectively encouraged. Capitalism is a race to the bottom, regardless of consequences.
When the supreme Court has their finger in the scale it makes everything feel fuckin hopeless
They don't help, sure, but this shit happens anyway in capitalism. It's an inevitability.
Yeah it sucks how money flows to the people who can use it most under capitalism, without anyone having to force it to happen.
Is this how you think capitalism works? Yikes.
Capitalism is not a meritocracy the second someone fies and passes on their money
The person in the Philippines gets a good job out of this
They're being paid minimum wage. It's not a great job.
Edit: And apparently they split their tips with the people working in the restaurant too, so I really feel like this is just exploitation.
The minimum wage in the Phillipines is around $10 a day.
If this is right:
Looks like the absolute max is less than $10, and the absolute minimum is less than six dollars.
to
How come agricultural laborers get shafted? An immediate guess is the government trying to keep food costs down.
Resulted in community silence instead
Why does it seem that the ones who have everything have nothing inside, nothing inside?
We must be mistaken
People should just not go there. But it's america and they probably have 1dollar chicken nuggets or something.
I would probably just turn around if I saw and understood what I was looking at. Definitely wouldn't go back a second time.
They are not physically in the US, and probably work listed as some sort of overseas contractor. Whatever wages they earn are from their employer who contracts for the restaurant.
That’s probably how it works.
At that point why even have a cashier? Just put a POS and have people swype to enter like a subway.
Sounds like they've already got a POS, just higher up on the org chart.
Ah, wordplay!
I'm confused, what else could POS mean but Piece of
rshit?POS - Point of Sale
Also POS - Piece of shit
FTFY (sorry, just having fun 😊)
POS POS: piece of shit point of sale
Username checks out.
$3 is good pay over there, buys way more than our $3. Bet people are scrambling for those jobs. Good money when the daily min wage is $8-$10.
For example, my wife's ex took her family and friends to the fanciest restaurant they could find. $120 (including tip) for 16 people.
Americans are the ones exploited here. McDonalds is pumping money out of the country and taking our jobs.
There's a movie called Eurotrip. Its about 3 college aged kids taking a road trip through Europe.
I forget what country they get to, but it's a run down mostly Indian country. They stay at a hotel, and the bell hop handles their bags. They try to give him a tip, but realize they only have like 17 cents. So he gives him a nickle, and says "Its not much, but maybe having some American money is novel."
The bellhop is shocked. Made to look like he's angry. So the bellhops boss is just walking by. This is after his interaction with the main characters are done. His boss starts yelling at him. And he yells "FUCK YOU! YOU SEE THIS??? I GOT A NICKLE!!! I OPEN MY OWN HOTEL!!!" And the boss is horrified. He says something like "For a nickle, that hotel will be the nicest in (whatever country they were in)."
Your comment reminds me of that scene.
But do you think Scotty ever found out?
Don't tell him just in case.
Your take away here is that Americans are the real victims? If we are talking about countries, theres not many that have caused as much suffering and death as America. We just do it for money instead of religion.
America exploits the rest of the world, full stop.
South America, west Africa, some of the Middle East, yea. Rest of the world, not that much. Out of any conquering army, the US installed regimes have been a bit above the Soviets. Japan and West Germany did great, SK had a tyrannical dictator, so was Chiang-Kai Shek- though the US nowhere near installed him. But neither the Kim's nor Mao were much better. South Vietnam was propped up by the US but created because of the French. Ho Chi Minh may not have been that bad, and his replacements were ok. Pol Pot was very bad though. Lets not talk about the Soviet invasions of Poland, Budapest, and Prague. And even before that how they forced out previous democratic governments. Basically all the Soviet regimes in Europe sucked(Tito may have been ok, but wasn't Soviet). Not to mention actions in Mongolia and Central Asia.
If we were to mention British, French, and Spanish empires too. I'd say US world order is a bit above average compared to other world orders- especially in more recent years. Definitely not defending a lot of CIA actions abroad and FBI actions domestically.
Plus the addition of hindsight bias being applied to what used to be morally grey actions.
I do wish we would just be more honest as a country.
The POS is too busy running the company
Sometimes it’s nice if someone gets a job, and sometimes people like to talk to a person while they’re paying.
I would rather use a POS terminal than try to talk to someone over zoom with no headphones. If it's not a human in person who can just say "hmmm the computer is broken here's your sandwich" then it's worse.
Good thing they build a wall so these mean immigrants are not stealing jobs.
I know you are being cheeky.. But you are using their lingo. It is strategic as it skips the the perp ie the rent seeker looking to underpay for labour.
You know how fake teevee always got NYC migrant bussing story?
But we never hear about migrants being bussed into the heartland to work in meat packing or some other hard work.
Who is paying to bus them anyway?
Asking for a friend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
Oops! All Plantations now!
Guess it wasn't much of a land for the free. Unless people start pushing back, I gotta question if it's the home of the brave, either.
Can't wait to hear how Trump says Philippines
This shit has got to be outlawed. Companies are doing this across the board. Literally skirting labor laws, outsourcing jobs that should be going to us citizens, all to just continue pouring more money into the tops pockets. When will we have all had enough?
It's a simple enough solution in this case. They are performing the work of employees, so for all intents and purposes, they are employees. They are directly interacting with US customers at a physical location within the US. Their place of work is that physical location, even if they are not physically present. They need authorization to work in the US, and the minimum wage laws applicable to that location applies to these workers.
All that is missing is the lawsuit under existing labor laws, which they will probably lose.
Good luck finding a judge taking such a position
Judiciary is just a rubber stamp for the corporate needs. Last 40 years of court rulings speak for themselves.
Courts ain't saving slaves
Sounds like something the Department of Labour could legislate... Or could have.
But the supreme court just ruled that this falls under the courts jurisdiction and there's a snowflakes chance in hell that a case pushed high and far enough will result in those ghouls will rule in favour of labour interests.
Yeah, I don't think SCOTUS would side with an IRS or Labour Department rule requiring businesses pay minimum wage. But you're forgetting the "racist" angle: the courts would love nothing more than to support a State Department determination that they are "immigrant workers" and require a work visa.
So what can the citizens do to get traction on this?
I would not shop here. If I saw this, I would turn around and walk out. Go somewhere that they value work.
BuT nO oNe WaNtS tO wOrK aNyMoRe
:D
Obligatory -
How about this one from about 2000 years ago:
Matthew 9:37
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+9%3A37&version=KJV
That was awesome. Deep cut!
Everyone in the US takes advantage of cheap overseas labor. It’s just usually not directly in your face.
It's usually impossible not to, because we have no visibility into the supply chain or there's no other options. In this case, it's impossible to ignore.
This feels cyberpunk. Some netrunner will hack the system and give free meals away because fuck the corpos, right?
I don't think you need a netrunner to plug a mouse into the pc behind the monitor and hit "Leave" on the (I assume) Zoom call.
Even easier, unplug the ethernet cable.
Whoa, slow down there, Einstein, I don't understand your hacker jargon!
Or turn off the monitor and bounce lol. If you don't have employees to fix things, systems are hilariously easy to break.
“If someone’s consistently lucky, it ain’t luck”
Fuck corpo shit
Are there movements in the US or globally to force all business into worker coops? Unions are good but I think this is their ultimate limitation, that employers can just offshore their jobs
Argentina has somewhat of a history of workers seizing their factories. I think it would be extremely hard in the U.S. due to the well-funded police. Generally, I guess the movement would be "anarcho-syndicalism."
Edit: misremembered worker factory takeovers in the past as occurring in Venezuela instead of Argentina.
They'll send in the national guard
Thanks. I didn't know about Venezuela's history at all. But I meant not more on a policy level to mandate that all companies must be owned equally by employees instead of shareholders
Got some sources on that? I was born and raised there and all I can find is the government seizing factories, not the workers
Edit: some sources of my own
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/general-motors-says-venezuelan-officials-illegally-seize-plant-n748741
https://www.lanacion.com.ar/el-mundo/las-expropiaciones-venezuela-ruta-directa-al-desastre-nid2376403/
Oh shit. Mixed it up with Argentina.
Yes:
https://www.abolishhumanrentals.org
@aboringdystopia
Thanks! First time hearing of this.
Forcing isn’t good.
By that hyper-simplistic "logic" people shouldn't be forced into prison if they murder someone.
Clearly some kinds of forcing in some situations are "good", and if some are good but other not, that means the real discussion is all about "when is forcing right and when is it not?" something that childlike "logic" of yours doesn't even begin to address.
Forcing to defend the lives of others, is very different from forcibly taking what belongs to others
The meme is right, the claim of belonging is complete bullshit. Your toothbrush and your home belong to you, a business involving multiple people belongs to everyone involved. The idea that it doesn't is narcissism and evil.
You're free to believe what you want, I'm personally a Lockean property rights enjoyer.
Cringe and evil
I think stealing the labor of others is evil
Funny bc thats in agreement with what I just said. Unless you think your home and toothbrush are not yours bc you didn't make them.
It disagrees with the second statement not the first
It rightfully belongs to the workers. The firm is basically a vehicle for appropriating the positive and negative product of production. The just basis of property is getting the positive and negative fruits of your labor (i.e. the labor theory of property). In a capitalist employer-employee relationship, the employer gets solely holds the whole product while workers are denied their claim to it despite it being a result of their labor.
@aboringdystopia
Forcing is absolutely good. We force companies to do all kinds of things, in terms of corporate governance (publicly traded companies must have their finances audited, for example), ownership (banks used to be prevented from buying stock so that they would not avoid calling in bad debt), and how they do business (collusion between big tech to keep salaries down for example).
Yeah because private Enterprise will be guided by the invisible hand to do the right thing
Having no actual person guarding your business is a recipe for theft. If this catches on it will be so much easier to steal from places. I'm ok with this
You shouldnt ever try to protect the cash register at your place of work. They give 0 fucks about you and will have a job posting up before your body is cold.
Fact but it does not negate that physically present employees deters some crime.
High traffic grocery stores who put in self check outs are staffing several guards now and put in some clown fences and gates...
But hey guy who put in self check and guy fired cashiers both got bonus...
Guy hiring security and putting fences also got bonus. These clowns will pay anyone any amount of money as long they don't pay the worker for the actual job.
I remember working in a store and a guy walked through the scanner at the door and it went off, the other employee looked at me and was like "that guy stole something, hey?" And I was just like "yep" and we went back to whatever we were doing lol
This is the way. Ive seen the "security" do the same shit, they don't get paid enough to throw down over a can of doritos either lol
Retail jobs will tell you this too as they want as little liability as possible.
Plus the registers only usually have a couple hundred bucks max at one time.
Can confirm, if they give any appearance of being human, even for years on end, it's a lie, they are complete psychopaths and will throw you into the fire not even to save themselves, just to feel slightly less insecure.
From 1977 to 2021, in 2021 inflation-adjusted dollars, state and local government spending on police increased from $47 billion to $135 billion, an increase of 189 percent.
Privatize the profits, socialize the costs
gestures broadly at the entire us pharmaceutical industry
The recommended course of action in a robbery is to follow instructions and hand over anything they ask for. If they grab product and walk out of the store, don't try to stop them. This is actually less of an insurance liability than having an actual person there.
Yes but in general people are less likely to steal if there is a person standing in front of them watching. I'm not even talking about robbery just people stealing a candy bar or whatever. If it's just sitting out with no one around people will take it.
Stealing and robbery are different
I'm sure there's a technical difference but I really don't care about it.
Unplug the display & camera, get meals for free?
... and walk into the back to make your own food?
Way better than yelling at them about no onions on my sandwich
Don't yell at the cashier, he didn't do anything wrong.
Depends on whether they put the order in correctly or the kitchen staff didn't follow it, doesn't it Jim bob?
I'd be tempted to do it just for the chaos factor.
Japanese Fried Chicken? JFC
Looks like this is "Japang". Terrible reviews online and described as actually a "ghost kitchen".
Ghost kitchens for those who don’t know are basically “restaurants” for online takeout orders. They don’t do in person service.
It’s more they use spray existing kitchens to do so.
The Denny’s around here is a ghost for like 3 different places
Yes sorry you are correct, forgot that critical piece. They often service multiple “places”
The monthly subscription to the kiosk software still costs more I bet.
Right, Corpomerica will corpomerica
They do have a kiosk. Just one that’s supervised by someone in the Philippines
Ah yes, it's the minorities who are stealing jobs. Not the lack of regulations blocking corpos from outsourcing work.
And black jobs, too!
/s
Shhhh don't say that part. We're supposed to hate each other.
Working as a graphic designer in the US since the early 2000's, every employer I ever worked for eventually used Fiverr to pay someone overseas a fraction of what they paid me to do the same work. This doesn't seem meaningfully different.
Not saying this is okay, just that it's not even remotely (no pun intended) a new problem.
This whole thing is a to send a message to begin with as with AI, actually more so.
Most of the "AI job losses" are this sort of offshoring actually... Joke is on the wage slaves.
This is pure Astronaut meme with “wait, AI is just 3rd world wage slaves?”
There was an article that exposed Amazons cashier-less stores were just bunch of Indians overseas reviewing footage because their classification algorithms failed half the time
I’m honestly surprised the corps haven’t done this to all of their drive-thrus.
No, that is just a pre-recorded message. I once went through a mcdonald's drive thru that had just closed. They asked me for my order and after I gave it, I realized no one was in the restaurant. I pulled around and they asked me again every time I stopped at the order point, but there was no cars in the lot.
You're assuming McDonald's employees are rich enough to afford cars.
Theyre stealing our jobs without even being here! /s
Maybe someone will catch on to who the actual enemy is here...
Lol. Not the hicks. Theyll see foreigner and get pissy
What happens when you join the zoom id listed?
The host denies you access. I just tried, waited for 5 minutes before being denied access.
Okay but like... how are they gonna count out my change?
In Japan, you order from a vending machine, pay the machine, get a slip of paper, and hand it to the cook.
I think that system is fantastic.
We have this in the US to. Even McDonalds does them!
For different reasons though. In japan it's for small restaurants which don't employ many people or don't have a lot of space or both. For McDonald's it's for pinching a dollar more for their empire.
So about saving money, which is the same reason
McDonald's is franchised
Ya I hate that. I have walked out of a McDonalds and went to the drive thru just so a person would take my order.
I also love the amount vending machines Japan has. I'd love to have machine for tea or late night ramen around every corner.
Not what you want to hear, but it sounds like you just want a kettle
Haha. If those two were the only things offered in vending machines in japan, then yes. But they don't.
For giving you change: https://www.yourposstuff.com/T-Flex-Coin-Dispenser-p/tflexsc.htm
For counting your change, probably something like this https://www.innovorder.com/en/automated-cash-recycling-system
Those are awesome for the 7.2 minutes in a row they work without some intervention.
Source: McDonald's drive-[through].
Ohh
So that’s how it works - video was actually quite interesting.
In the Netherlands you have self checkout with cash. No cashier involved.
Cashless payment, or those machine that will count the money, sorta like vending machine.
Ok what the actual fuck?
They call it free market
I'm almost certain this has been tried before multiple times and always ended badly. I see no reason to think it would be different now.
No one wants to see the people who are being exploited.
“Please don’t destroy my job to satisfy your desire to virtue signal”
— the person who now has a job as a cashier
Sucks to be them. Stop enabling our owner class to hollow out our economy even more
I just wouldn't go to that restaurant. Plenty of other places to go.
Critical thinking spotted!
Whoever clicked the link drop the name of that shithole so NYC shitposters know to avoid.
Uh huh......avoid......
tightens brick
damn fed... can't folk just not spend their money at a place that devalues their labour tho
That only works if consumers organize and have discipline. Like a boycott. Were talking about americans here, they wont bother unless its a trans woman
You very likely very right but it does not mean that people should not do it and spread the word. Hopefully one day we can hit critical mass.
Vote with your money people, it is the most effective way to exercise of power you have. You must consume but some choices are better than others.
Oh absolutely we should try, Im just a cynic
me too but but got to fight the good fight.
denying corpos profits does bring some joy in life tho, the last bit of agency before the cyberpunk future.
Thankfully even without the name it’ll be pretty obvious if you stumble across it.
This is going to be the response to "work from home"
Cashiers fought for WFH?
If you're talking about other sectors, it's been done before (off-shoring in the 2000s).
Yeah but he reminding us "that daddy can do it anytime to you"
U feel me?
Is this real? Is there any proof of this actually being a thing?
So … they do ask for tips, right?
Always dear... otherwise owner's children will starve ;)
The tips go to the owner.
Tips are split and go to the whole team
Not knowing the law in the US I guess it is fully legal. Given that there is no union or chain responsibility in the supply chain or similar to GDPR in EU you guys are fucked until someone abuse the system one way or another.
On the other hand it shows work from home is feasible even with these kind of things.
I HATE THE ANTICHRIST
Does this mean I can give the cashier a 50 cent tip and I can get her number for laters?
Jetsons predicted this
I hope it's just supplemental. Like have one cashier and when it's busy have one remote in to help for a period of time (card only payments) then log out. Could have a 3rd party company manage a group of online employees to rotate between places worldwide.
Still don't think I'm cool with it but seems inevitable unless AI just replaces all of them quicker than expected
This is a particularly suited post for this magazine and the image just completes it
I have bad eye sight...I read the screen behind her as "Japanese fried children" suddenly I knew I had misread that. Like there's no way New York would stoop that low and be that cruel to children. I corrected myself before any other thought occurred actually. But it was momentarily disturbing.
If a remote worker can actually do the job at a high enough level, then the writing is on the wall.
Globalization will eventually take over those roles and laws that try to prop up a local worker will end up like Oregon's old law that says you can't pump your own gas.
The only way to 'win' is to equip the local guy with skills that absolutely cannot be done remotely, or educate him to do things at a level unmatched by the remote worker coming from another culture.
Yeah, that's how labor exploitation works
If my initial reaction is “that’s too bad”, does it make me greedy?
Like, I don’t think US workers are more deserving as human beings than anyone else… but a part of me knows hardcore globalization would hurt people geographically close to me… I’m like some national relativist or something?
I feel like I should want everyone to win regardless of where they were born. And $3/hr is huge vs. the $6/day min wage in parts of PH. Know friends’ friends are farming rice for six bucks a day.
the problem is it circumvents minimum wage laws. They're employing a person so they should be paying them the appropriate wages to do business in new york or the US. They're also benefitting from payroll/income taxes but not paying into the programs.
Good point!
Are call centers the same way? And any company relying on Business Process Outsourcing (BPO) firms?
Would be a lotta layoffs overseas if we restricted all foreign labor making less than local minimum wage. Is that a fair trade off? (Not being facetious, genuine question again)
Oh one thing that’s kinda messed up is when tech companies go through consultancies to hire workers in India, the consulting companies take HALF!! Wild!
Yes it is a fair tradeoff. Any time we make a law we're raising the cost of goods and services here. If there's no regulation or import taxes to balance prices with outside the jurisdiction, then the "race to the bottom" de facto negates the law in question.
So if we ban XYZ here, but allow untaxed imports from countries with XYZ, then we haven't really banned it - we just moved it.
Everything in the US is already expensive, that "great wage going to a Filipino/a" is at the expense of a person in their own hometown not having a job.
Too bad? Put the shoe on your other foot. If we in the US ban imported rice to protect our farmers, would you and friends feel comfortable in that time things take to adjust? The loss of income?
How far does $6/day go in the Philippines? I can tell you how far it goes in NYC.
Things in america should be more expensive. We do not pay for the full cost of what all of our goods and services cost, mainly due to exploitative measures like in this post.
You can double down all you want but the real answer is that we just shouldn't be able to buy nearly as much stuff as we do. We love being consumers anf watching the trash heap grow, while we take advantage of anyone smaller than us in any remote corner of the Earth.
At no point have I ever said our excessive consumerism is good, only that people shouldn't be competing internationally for an in-person job.
Having been raised in NYC, I can tell you directly that the job market is a bit fierce, and I think offshoring basic service jobs is terrible for everyone involved, owner included.
I agree with your post but wanted to add that I think we are starting to realize the effects of cutting out relationships with people in our community.
I suppose thats just another aspect of offshoring that is problematic.
It's a race to the bottom, which I'd call a systematic bug.
Who's buying anything fun when nobody has a job? So yeah, I agree with what you're saying too.
I don’t know what to think because I want everyone to win, but it’s hard to deny I’m biased towards my countrymen here stateside.
Re-reading my comment, did it sound like I meant:
or
I did mean the first one.
I should want everyone to win but I’m biased towards Americans in situations like this - and I don’t know if I can justify it, if I can universalize the maxim.
I understood you meant the first one. I'm also biased towards the people of my former home city.
There are several sources that collude to raise prices for the average New Yorker, rent and food amongst them. I'm not at all blaming the lady taking the job remotely, there is pain in financing & operating the business, for the employees in getting to and from, and getting paid close to what their work is actually worth.
The bitch is that none of this system is voluntary. Work or starve, how inhumane.
What you shluldve wanting is some Phillipino employer to pay the lady what shes worth, and the American business to hire an American
this is simply cool and good
I'm not a fan of this, it's definitely not great, but I've tested the AI drive through lanes, not the worst possible future.
Sure, it might be convenient, but our society is not structured in a way that allows this to work. We need deep, deep social support or people will suffer greatly
I don't think anyone ever said anything about it being convenient. I'm pretty sure I specifically said it was bad just not as bad as it could be.
Yeah it’s definitely dystopian that someone in the Philippines gets to earn a living 🙄
hope your job never gets offshored
you: "Yeah I lost my job, but hey, now someone in India gets to earn a living...can you help me prop up my cardboard box to keep the rain out? thanks."
Jobs are not a finite resource. If there is a pool of people who want to work, someone will find stuff to pay them to do.
I seriously would love for my entire current set of job responsibilities to be automated. There are a couple of value-adding full-time jobs' worth of work I could be doing for my employer that are just being left on the table right now.
Well this is just absolutely untrue. If there's a pool of people who want to work then someone will just give them a job? what kind of magical unicorn world are you living in? So in your world unemployment rates just...don't exist or are a fabrication? those people are just lazy?
If you got fired from your job and you couldn't find another one, in your head, whose fault is that? yours? the mythical job provider who hasn't blessed you with another?
If I ran a business and was provided the option of hiring you or someone in another country for peanuts, I'd tell you to kick grass.
But you want to work I hear you say! someone HAS to pay me to do something! nope, I'm not going to pay you, I'm going to pay this kid in India or his brother that just got off the plane half of what I would have to pay you.
Welcome to the real world.
it is not the way the world has to work just because it's the way the world currently works
There will always be some level of unemployment (a percentage of people who want job a won't have found one), but if automation made the unemployment rate permanently go up, all the people who used to hand knit socks who lost jobs to powered looms, all the people who used to drive plows with oxen who lost jobs to combines, all the blacksmiths who lost jobs to powered forges, and equivalent percentage of the population for subsequent generations forever would remain unemployed. And yet, somehow, subsequent generations have managed to mostly find jobs.
I agree it sucks that anyone would lose their job, but why is the default of people in the "west" having well paid, air conditioned jobs, and other people getting those jobs stealing from them.
The default is locals having the job.
Why should it remain that way?
Because the surplus from this change is going to the owner and not the workers.
It's in NYC, I would not assume the owner is financially stable. Small businesses struggle because of two main costs, rent and labor
How is this my problem?
Nobody ask how my budget at home work when I negotiate my salary.
Financial viability of a shiti business is the "owners" problem.
They never include me when they accounting them profits tho ;)
I wonder why dear?
Since we're discussing the default, I'd assume average NYC everything. If a restaurant can't afford to pay minimum wage for the area, then I wouldn't assume their business is a good use of space.
Capitalism's spatial fix.