Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”
https://apnews.com/article/china-byd-auto-seagull-auto-ev-cae20c92432b74e95c234d93ec1df400Open linkView original on lemmy.ca
Hyperbole as rhetorical device is getting exhausting and makes me extremely skeptical.
This whole article is just paid marketing. Some AP journalist didn't tear this car down and analyze its build quality.
No, but UBS did, on its teardown of the BYD Seal.
Specially when you see the stats and it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH. And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
That's further than I'd drive before a 20 minute rest stop, and faster than it's legal to drive anywhere in the US, except for Texas State Highway 130.
As opposed to the Cybertruck, which has a revolutionary, but very expensive, design featuring only one windshield wiper.
Cybertruck is a bad comparison, everyone already knows that thing is a steaming pile of hot garbage.
I don't think comparing it to cybertruck is really a win. I could be in a bubble, but I hear nothing but terrible things about them.
Also, anecdotally, going on long family trips in my van, I frequently do 350 miles between stops on 900 mile trips. I'd say 80 is a typical speed on the Ohio turnpike, but I'd be a little worried about driving that thing pedal to the floor for 2-3 hours straight (no worries though, it'll never get that range at full speed).
That said, hey if this car meets your needs I'm all for that. Everyone should have options. I would consider buying one for my kids when they start driving as long as it's safe in accidents.
It also doesn't meet US auto safety standards.
Yeah here in the uk there's plenty of good charging points, woodland trust and national trust are putting them in at a lot of locations so I could plan a relaxing walk in the woods with my journey if I ever needed to go more than 150 miles, I think that would be really nice.
Supermarkets have tave them too, so I could plan getting the shopping I need for the trip while it charges, this would allow me to avoid predatory pricing at garages too.
I just looked on a road distance map and it's about where I would normally stop for a break, I've done longer drives but only rarely and I can't think of a time an excuse to stop for a walk in the woods wouldn't have been welcomed.
Oh and I only have one wiper but it was made by Hyundai so I guess it gets a pass lol
I stopped reading there.
Thanks for letting us know.
You're welcome
a threat to US auto industry? You promise? Cus US auto industry is a climate killing powerhouse of gas guzzling SUV's. Any politicians wanting to pretend to be capitalist, or to be in favor of the environment, let me buy this car.
No one i know under 50 years old wants a giant truck or suv, and thats all they wanna sell us. My only friends with new car $ bought a small wagon, which is all I'd want myself.
Those huge electric pickups are too heavy for our guardrails on top of everything else; it's insane and dangerous to let the big three make car culture here even worse.
I know so many boomers with fucking monster vehicles. Even my car nut friends daily drive sedans and small EV's. We're not idiots or rich.
So poor people drive smaller, cheaper cars. Got it.
You're just in different circles, I suppose.
I think you're reading into it the wrong way buddy.
I don't have the money for a big car and don't need one. Taking out a massive loan just to have a big car would be idiotic.
Where could we even park them if we did? My garage barely fits the two sedans my wife and I need to get to work on opposite sides of town, in a city with functionally no mass transit.
I might not mind owning a single SUV if I used it exclusively for long trips and as a make-shift camping van. But I simply do not have the acreage in my postage-stamp lot size of a three-story walk-up to host more than that. Not that some of my neighbors don't try, clogging all the sidewalks and curb spaces with their monster trucks.
Then you just don't know many people. Or live in a bubble. I see people in their twenties driving trucks in the richest city in my state known for being a hyper liberal college town.
The bigger issue is the U.S. auto dealership industry.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/11/09/car-dealerships-ev-sales/
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done? Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
Direct sales, which is becoming increasingly popular in a car market where dealership market ups price people out of purchases.
We'll see how long that lasts. Dealerships are the last great American petty aristocracy in a business environment that's increasingly all about absolute monarchies. Tesla has already been lobbying hard to overturn the ban on direct sales in Texas, and is doing plenty to end-run the system in the meanwhile. Amazon would love to get into the automotive market (we'll see where they go with their Rivian partnership). Silicon Valley hates these guys for getting in the way of their own drop shipping schemes. And its just a matter of time before the dam bursts.
You can't do direct sales in a lot of states.
Amazon is not a manufacturer. They should be able to act as a dealer and the only problem being all the different paperwork for all the different states
Leverage your precious free market capitalism and compete, assholes. It's not a threat, it's an opportunity.
So, there's a guy Silicon Valley Billionaire named Peter Thiel who released a book back in 2014 called "Zero to One", in which he advocates for the monopoly system and claims any good businessman ultimately seeks to corner the market.
The US car market has been consolidating over the last 40 years, in an effort to cartelize and ultimately monopolize the automotive industry. We've passed a host of regulations and taxes that compel foreign manufacturers to build and assemble cars domestically, to partner with US car firms, and to absorb parts of the market American firms don't want to occupy (US firms have functionally given up making small cars - almost everything is a truck or an SUV now). And we've unleashed our investment banks on East Asian industries, guaranteeing financial control of the largest firms in Korea, Japan, The Phillipines, and Taiwan via our international system of credits and debits.
The goal was never free markets, it was captured revenue streams. As we enter a new high surveillance age, vehicles are increasingly part of the always-on Internet Of Things information network used to continuously monitor anyone with enough money to afford a cellular device.
Excising firms like Huawei, ByteDance, and now BYD from the US marketplace is about cementing that captured state of the American economy and tightening the surveillance network. These are absolutely perceived of as threats, because they don't integrate into our controlled networks. Until Chinese businesses are willing to submit to Five-Eyes surveillance and the Chicago School Economics of the New York banks, they're not welcome in our country.
I don't see a problem here. If the US auto makers are so worried, they should buy a few of them, copy their secrets, and sell them at a marked down price.
Turnabout is fair play, after all.
They'd prefer to sell you a giant SUV or truck with massive profit margins and so they can continue to flout emissions standards.
Don't forget our big three are just chomping at the bit to get in on the subscription model. Oh, you want 'good' brakes, well that's $19.99/month. And there's no 'secrets' to the chinese cars, I am willing to bet that they are just selling them at a loss. It's not like they have to report real earnings to anyone.
They are just trying to kill the entire car industry. Which, at this point I could give a shit about. Car manufacturer seem to think that a car should be an investment… Except it depreciates.
Personally I’m not sure I would want that car as my only vehicle because I only have space for one car, but if I get a bigger place with a two car garage I would definitely be interested in a small electric car that doesn’t break my budget. I would probably use it 1/5 trips.
I saw an article somewhere on lemmy recently that had some commentary from an American tear-down r&d type shop that said they think BYD makes a small profit on them
Very interesting. But the cynic in me says that even if we could tear it down and learn from it, we would manage to negate the savings with other costs. If they are making a profit, even if it's tiny, that would still negate the tin foil hat people from being able to say they are just using them in infiltrate our nation with their spying and devious ways. Well one would think, but tin foil hat people will find a way to work around that, because what's the best way to hide that you are infiltrating our nation then making it look like you are making a tiny profit. (Taps forehead..)
This is an EV. There isn't any emissions to be concerned about. At least not from the car itself.
Right, but it's easier to continue to flout those standards than to build a high quality and affordable EV, with comparable profit margins. And the marketing is easier ("You're not a real man without this giant truck!").
They sell what buyers want. Look at sales numbers of small cars versus everything else.
So small imported EVs aren't actually a threat, then?
They are a threat when they're sold well below cost due to the Chinese government's massive subsidies which make it impossible for any other non-Chinese manufacturer in the world to compete with them.
Sounds like what buyers want is cheap cars then.
Yeah just like they want cheap products when Walmart comes to town and before too long the local economy is in the crapper as all the town's revenue gets funneled to Arkansas.
What you're advocating for is a race to the bottom just so you can buy one (maybe two!) new car(s) instead of an affordable used car like most people do. Let China sell their cars here with the same subsidies that every other company qualifies for on a level playing field.
Buyers do not want them, at least not anymore
They've been saying that axing the small sedan was to put money into EV. Seems they lied to pocket it, but we get nothing because free market capitalism is bullshit.
That article simply states the sales of the Dodge Ram and Ford F150 were down last quarter and makes no mention of any other segment or manufacturer. Dodge hasn't made a small sedan since 2016 and Ford hasn't made one since 2020
Huh, and I haven’t bought a vehicle from either since before then. What an amazing coincidence!
They built pretty shitty cars anyways so its no great loss
The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss. To be clear, no governments should be spending public funds on propping up automotive companies. It’s a move to try and manipulate the market.
So are the Big Three, every time they fail to see what's in front of their noses and get into trouble.
And they are setup for another fail right now, nothing but suvs on their lots and realistically gas has nowhere to go but up again.
Should've let them fall last time instead of the big bailouts.
Not true. They also have trucks
Who are the Big Three to you? Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep is owned by a Scandanavian company.
If that were actually the case wouldn't we want them sold here at a loss so we could drain resources from the Chinese government.
Someone has to pay for the R&D to make EV's possible. So far, that's not BYD. It's been US and European countries.
OK but let's talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?
Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you'll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.
I don't know if the laws have changed but (for some reason I forget), a dealership here imported two three-wheeled small pickup trucks from China within the last decade or so. So it was at least possible within the recent past somehow.
How do you, an average American, purchase an anti-worker product created by an adversary government? Simple, you move to China along with the rest of the American CEOs.
Anti worker. Riiight.
That's just you speaking the Big Three's mantra. If they'd gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn't need Big Brother to run to their aid.
This is no different than what happened in the 70's, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it's time they did.
This isn't about technology at all. It's about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don't get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The higher labor cost is also required because the standard of living is completely different. People in NA can't work for Chinese wages and survive. And if you want to create a race to the bottom, that's anti-worker. The shareholder class of the Big Three is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there's much more balance between them and workers.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members. I don't think many would have a problem with BYD building NA factories, especially if unionized by the UAW.
@Buelldozer is right, he's just being extra spicy about it.
UAW labor doesn't cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.
That's before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.
That's because they don't have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54
That's why Chinese labor is cheaper.
Toyota plants aren't unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.
"paid well" only has meaning in the context of standard of living, or cost of living. You provided that context. Within it they're paid relatively well. They're not getting state pensions or healthcare anytime soon so we work within the context.
They are not.
This exposé is a bit suspect, or at least this part is which makes me question the integrity as a whole:
Average human walks 3mph. This dude apparently never sleeps.
The whole thing reads like a corporate "uNioNS BaD" article
???
.
I don’t understand. Were Honda & Toyota forced to, or did they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?
This is no different than the 70s tho, when the oil crisis and subsequent importation of compact vehicles forced the Big Three to mothball the 'boats'.
BYD would likely want to gauge support in America before committing to building factories, especially in a nation where land prices have skyrocketed.
You're darn right I'm being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.
It's astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It's disgustingly short sighted and selfish.
Yeah I'm a bit puzzled because I think these folks are supportive of labor given they seem positive about workers in China having better safety nets. Yet letting cars in that will destroy local manufacturing isn't going to do anything positive for North American labor. If anything is going to help, it's supporting them instead of non-union car makers and supporting union action at non-union manufacturers. I'm of the opinion that we can't expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have. They simply won't represent labor to a significant extent unless they see workers as organized voting blocks that don't lap up corporate propaganda.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. — Audre Lorde
I don’t think we should try to play the game by the capitalist class’ own rules, which they created for themselves. We’re never going to be able buy the political system by outspending the capitalist class: they own the means of production and it’s their political system.
Right now labor is very divided, shattered. It was significantly more organized a hundred years ago, though still divided along racial lines, a mistake we mustn’t repeat. People don’t seem to remember now how many socialists existed back then and were deeply involved in that organizing, before they were crushed by red scares and other skulduggery. And unfortunately almost all of our surviving unions came from explicitly anti-socialist roots, the others having been purged. Socialists are still extremely few in the US.
We can’t buy government, and we know our vote alone has very little power. What we need is a resurgent, re-organized labor movement, and new labor media (we used to have our own newspapers!) to counteract corporate media, and we need new mass industrial actions that fit today’s material conditions*. That’s how we forced the state to make concessions in the past.
*Simply organizing “blue collar” workers again won’t cut it, because many of us are not that now.
What you suggested is what I imagine. Thank you for articulating it!
They think they're leftists. But they're too "me first" on consuming to realize they're not.
Are you seriously trying to make the claim that a Chinese auto worker is doing as well as a UAW member? If you are I want proof, if not then what are you talking about?
You realize it's "cheap" in China because their Government subsidizes it and the manufacturers abuse their employees, right?
I have no love for the American Auto Industry but this idea that BYD or any other Chinese "New Energy" vehicle is competing on anything like a level playing field is ludicrous. They are cheap because they pay their workers like dogshit, they treat their workers like dogshit, they have near zero environmental safety regulations, and they have near zero environmental regulations hell. 2/3rds of their electricity is produced by burning coal!
Lusting after a cheap BYD product just because you despise American Auto Manufacturers is literally cutting of your own nose in order to spite your face.
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well. It’s not just the Chinese government. For my purchase, the direct incentives alone were $11,500 (and that doesn’t count the tens of billions in indirect subsidies) - if a legacy manufacturer could make an EV for even double the cost of BYD, I’d buy it since my cost would be the same
I’ll give you higher wages and move the goalposts toward you to account for it ….. let’s say double the price. Where is my flood of EVs from legacy manufacturers for no more than double the price of Chinese manufacturers?
What you refer to as "heavily" (~15B across four years) is what China spent per year every year from 2009 through 2022, for a total of 173 Billion dollars. Their latest package, announced last September, will have them spending 73$ Billion across the next four years. Their Government has literally been subsidizing EV production at 3-4 times the rate of the United States for over a decade! Yeah, that's a totally level playing field. No shenanigans there, no Sir.
As the article notes the Seagull, rebadged as a Dolphin Mini, sells for $21,000 in Latin America so you aren't going to get it for $24,000 in the United States and most especially not if it's built here where they can't employ people for 5 USD an hour.
You don't have to like it, or me, but it's completely irrefutable that the 12,000 price is only possible due enormous government subsidies and cheap Chinese labor. Allowing those vehicles into the United States is the end of all domestic auto manufacturing, not just the Big 3, and all of the workers who are employed there. We already watched this play out with Steel, Textiles, and other manufacturing based industries.
"Literally"? Really? People lusting after BYD products have no noses now?
That's the only thing you respond to?
I always was under the impression that america is similarly anti-worker, esp. hearing news about tesla strikes. Probably not as extreme as China though if you compare safety standards. When I look at car companies, there is honestly no good option that I would happily support by buying from. What do you mean about CEOs moving to China, is this a thing?
Lolz. Lmao even.
Most products in the states is literally this.
China: offers affordable EV
US Auto: NOoooooooooooooo!!
I won't defend the US auto industry, but there are issues in play here that might not be obvious. For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance
Those are just excuses:
They might be used as excuses by a complacent industry, but they are not just excuses. They are also valid reasons for concern, and would still be so even if not used as talking points for Detroit lobbyists.
Regardless of that, China's government has spent more than a few years subsidizing products and services in order to make their exports dirt cheap abroad, eventually making other nations dependent on them. (See also: the Belt and Road Initiative.) This fits the same pattern, and would still be a problem even if US auto industry protectionism didn't exist.
Agreed, but once again, that doesn't invalidate the problem that I mentioned. A foreign adversary having deep, real-time access to the nation's infrastructure, traffic patterns, sensitive information revealed through conversations and cameras, etc. is a larger problem than the personal privacy issues that already exist domestically.
The difference lies in where the collected information goes. That might not matter to some people on a personal level, but on a national scale, handing all that info to an adversary nation is cause for concern.
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers? There’s a difference in responsiveness and I’m sure data brokers make a pretense of anonymizing that will need a bit of adjustment, but I’m not convinced it’s as different as everyone is afraid of
That would also be a cause for concern. Both should be addressed.
Those are probably both totally relevant points but it's not going to matter because everyone's suffering so much from inflation that they'll go ahead and take the bait and buy it anyway. Even those that are aware of the intentional nature of the dumping and aware of the risks of surveillance won't be able to responsibly buy a car that cost $60,000 when they can get one for 12k.
That, along with a bloated auto industry and terribly underdeveloped public transit. Here's hoping this turn of events will lead to real progress in fixing these problems.
If so, it'll be because enough people discover that the problem is the system itself.
I see your reasonable, logical arguments, and raise another Affordable EV.
Americans forced the world into the capitalist system, and now they don’t like it when China does capitalism. Why are they so afraid of the free market?
Except it’s not capitalism when China does it, it’s socialism. The EV manufacturers like BYD have had massive subsidies from the state to bring those products to market, and that level of state support and intervention is not palatable to Americans.
Political, Climate change and National Security concerns aside, the subsidies are how the US government are about to justify the tariffs.
So are massive subsidies only socialism when China does it?
The US has been doing that for decades.
yes but then the US doesn’t expect to sell huge quantities of its cars in China and upset the market. Nor would China permit that.
They not only sell huge quantities of cars in China, they export new and used cars to China for sale.
They're not upsetting the market because they're already a huge part of it.
Upsetting the market is generally good for consumers. Why exactly would you want to lick the boots of American auto manufacturers when they're actively price gouging in the absence of any competition?
We can talk about the massive subsidies the US government did and do to the automakers. The propaganda paid with tax money to have a centered car environment.
Each country subsidies its automaker but doesn't want the other to do so because "Free market™". It's at best hypocrite.
A electric car that is not a SUV? I am in!!! Here in Canada the only option for EV are Prius and SUV. No small EV car under 20k. I say bring them on!! Otherwise I will continue to buy juices from arabian country.
I don't want a Chinese car but at the same time if American automakers are going to continue refusing to make affordable electric cars and only give massive SUVs and trucks as our gas options then it seems like that's pretty much the choice we'll be left with.
Edit: if this frightens the Biden administration then they need to find a way to put pressure on American manufacturers to make some decent vehicles.
I'm really not a fan of China, but I'm inclined to agree. We need smaller, more affordable vehicles. SUVs are antiquated, and trucks are largely decorative for most of the population. We need smaller, lighter vehicles. Though we also should be investing much more into mass transit rather than (largely redundant) highways and roads anyways, as it's a huge waste of taxpayer money. Keep the key highways, build rail to reduce reliance on shit we shouldn't really be rebuilding anyways. A lot of highways are going to be hitting the end of their useful lives soon, anyways, and require rebuilds.
The Big Three have already had Biden's ear for a while on this, which is why he's quadrupling tariffs on Chinese EVs this week. Source
What? The big three are trying to rig the game in their favor again? I'm very surprised! ...not really, it's business as usual from them.
It doesn't. That car will never be here without direct investment in U.S. factories.
We have a free trade agreement with Mexico, and legacy car manufacturers are heavily dependent on Mexican factories with no tariffs or restrictions.
…. BYD has announced manufacturing in Mexico.
BYD said they aren't importing from Mexico. Despite that fact, the Senate is moving to block them from importing from Mexico.
Even if they built them in a US factory their cars would still be better and cheaper. They just know that once they start the US will ban them like Tiktok, and they'd rather keep the battery and bus factories they already have in the US and avoid competing with anybody politically connected.
It's easy to build a cheap car when you ignore the human rights of your workers and the environmental damage of your production process.
Lol western nations dint give a fuck about that. They just externalized the environmental costs to China and other poor nations until now and then sold the end result to their customers. The only problem is that that US doesn't own the company.
Ah yes America, the global leader in human rights and environmental protection.
Or our businesses don't want this type of competition? An affordable and reliable sub 10k EV? This would hurt our businesses and billionaire class, no?
If I needed a new car, and had a 10k EV as an option, it'd be my first choice to look into.
Por que no los dos, though.
You'd seriously consider buying the cheapest car on the market?
Our businesses can't compete because we don't want poison in our air/water, cars made with child labor, or factories that regularly maim or kill employees.
Is that why all the manufacturing of every industry (including most of the parts for the cars assembled in USA) was sent from America to China?
?
It’s okay when we do it because our factories at least looks clean and modern despite all that shit happening anyway.
Yes. As bad as you think we are, China is worse.
You manufacture EVERYTHING in China.
WTF
Translation: I've brought into the idea that america is the best and therfore without any evidence I'll assume that every bad thing that happens is worse in China.
It's weird that people acknowledge china has made huge investments in modernizing industry while america has not but then act like investing trillions in high tech manifacturing has changed nothing and the country is still just guys in pointy straw hats scratching at the dirt.
Go look at the dji factory, it's a beautifully elegant engineering masterpiece as or more advanced than any western factory. The design is efficient, robust, and retoolable with workers getting good wages and a range of benefits that rival or exceed similar employment in Europe or the US, most working 9-5 in good safe conditions with adequate breaks.
MiC25 the project to invest in and promote Chinese tech manifacturing is reaching maturity and exactly what was intended and expected is happening. The lesson should be that investing in infrastructure and modernization is a great idea but instead people want to dismiss that and say 'no surely things are always better here in the west where the only investments we make are bailing out the rich every time they fuck up'
Yes china has a lot of problems like any county, just assuming that everything they do is evil and terrible makes no sense.
I don't think America is the best either, just less bad than China in most cases.
As of 2023, 40% of the Chinese workforce is engaged in farming, primarily at the small scale. Your racist implications aside, a large portion of the country is still relatively undeveloped.
China executes more than 1000 people every year, sometimes for things which are protected rights in the US like political dissidence (aka free speech). They are the #1 country in numbers of executions. They kill more people than the next 10 countries on the list combined.
China is the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases; the largest source of marine debris; the worst perpetrators of illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing; and the world's largest consumer of trafficked wildlife and timber products.
The Chinese government regularly spies on its own citizens, censors what their citizens know, and manipulates them with propaganda.
China has 5 times the workforce as the US but 16 times the workplace fatality rate. More than 225 Chinese people die from workplace accidents.
China regularly holds more than 1 million people in internment camps. In these camps many are abused, tortured, raped, or used as slave labor. That is on top of the 1.7 million people in the penal system where torture is regularly used as punishment.
But yeah, they have one or two nice looking factories.
Our businesses can't compete because we spent the last 30 years outsourcing all of our manufacturing and production to cut cost.
Look at the rivers here and tell me with a straight face that we give a meaningful pity fuck about the environment.
Do you have any idea how bad the rivers used to be? A river outside Cleveland used to catch on fire and a river in Chicago used to bubble due to all the rotting slaughterhouse runoff.
Where is your evidence of these claims
I've been online long enough to know a sealion is coming when I see one. Not engaging.
Riiight. Running from providing actual proof isn't the own you think it is.
I addressed it in another comment
https://lemmy.world/comment/10040038
Problem is, that goes for expensive cars as well.
At some point we need to decide are we in the West are either (a) importing cheap small cars from China, or (b) stopping poor people from driving. Because petrol is on the way out.
That's why ebikes and scooters are becoming so popular. Small short range mobility vehicles are filling the gap.
I think that's the key tbh. Most people aren't going to need a massive car for going about town. Just something that can carry your shopping and get you to work and back will do.
I just wish I didn't have to choose between a small car and a car that won't get stuck in the snow. I don't know why they think small cars must also have a small ground clearance.
Western auto workers weren't and aren't anywhere near ethical with their workers. Also Western automakers do have plenty of wiggle room, but they're not charities.
Agreed on both accounts. Still us manufacturing is nowhere near as bad with workers rights and pollution as China. The smog is often so bad over Beijing that it blocks out the sun.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/beijing-air-pollution-photos_n_5698a1c6e4b0b4eb759e0155
China has a workplace fatality rate of around 10-15 per 100k workers compared to 5-6 for the US.
https://www.arinite.co.uk/the-worlds-most-dangerous-countries-for-workers
But hey, the US is only half as bad as what they call the literal devil
Exactly!
The car still sucks ass, dude. Literally no one is buying cheap Chinese shit that has a million problems. They're not even close.
They seem pretty popular here in Australia.
I'd never buy one but I'm glad they'll bring down the prices of proper cars.
Just want to remind people that BYD has been in the American market since 2011. They've been involved with building industrial vehicles like trucks and buses.
I look at both sides here, where every new vehicle has a chip that tell the auto makers just about everything about you ... but cheap, well-made EVs should be available to the average Joe, not just the wealthy.
What pisses me off the most is the Big Three have gotten billions in subsidies/corporate welfare, and instead of creating cheap EVs to fill the market they build gas-guzzling SUVs and full-sized trucks for $60k+ per.
My son refuses to buy a new vehicle. He says the old ones run better and he's able to fix them himself, which offsets the cost of maintaining any new vehicle.
I refuse as well, and will continue to refuse, at least until my 1997 and 2005 vehicles can no longer be repaired for some reason. I'd love some EV tech but the idea of driving a Big Brother vehicle that's fender-to-fender loaded with spyware and "features" that can only be enabled via subscriptions is horrifying and dystopian. Also forget all the Big Screen distractions inside and all the self-driving antifeatures. At least 1/2 of my driving is done for pleasure and I expect to be focusing on the road and what's happening around me.
They have to sell cars. I hear the EV F-150 is selling like shit despite all the interest online, which really disappoints me. I couldn't be happier with my Chevy Volt (other than it's too low to the ground for my body to comfortably climb in and out of) and many would say it's the best PHEV - or at least was for its time. The Bolt consistently ranks very highly among EVs. I absolutely disagree that American car manufacturers are dropping the ball here. They are trying to figure out how to make and sell these cars to consumers who have made clear they want trucks and SUVs with the cargo/passenger capacity for trips.
Cost of labor is higher here, but not nearly enough to explain this price difference (and is anyone suggesting we shouldn't pay autoworkers good wages?). Something doesn't add up. Corners have to have been cut to create an EV half the cost of everyone else. I welcome fair competition to help drive prices down, but I'll wait to see what happens. I'm super skeptical of any miracle solution, particularly when the verbiage about it has such an emotionally charged tone.
Did you have the chip issue in the volt a few years ago? Man that was a pain, lost mine for months waiting.
I’m currently buying ford mavericks for my fleet, and really wish they’d get off their ass and make it a plug in hybrid. We need more low to mid vehicles in the US or china will take the market even at 100% tariff markup. That’s embarrassing, but the outcome of them all pushing to “Yank tanks” for profit.
I didn't have the chip issue, but I know it was bad and covid supply chain issues turned it into an absolute shit show for those who did. So far it has been an absolute dream. I'm just too old and have bad joints to easily get in and out. I used to commute over 200 miles a day in it, so I got every watt out of that battery every day. I still push that battery to its limits at least once a week. Anyone who thinks 30 miles is plenty is crazy - especially in northern winters where range is cut in half.
They’re not dropping the ball, they’re throwing it away. You’re giving two examples that have been our best hope for affordable EVs but are no longer made
Well, that's a fair point. The Bolt is being replaced by an EV version of the Equinox, which I like better for the crossover size factor, but I suspect it won't hit quite the same as the Bolt.
No replacement for the Volt, though. Which kinda sucks, though it wasn't a cheap market car by any means. I think mine was 35k new and I didn't spring for the fancy version.
I've resolved to find and cut the antenna(s) when I have to buy a new car for this reason.
Do you own a cell phone though? Those things can collect way more data than any car ever could.
Wikipedia
doesn't have an article in Englishbut does have one in French :https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull
Speed, max : 130 km/h
Range : 305 km with 30 kWh sodium? bat. pack,
... 405 km with 38 kWh Lithium bat. pack
Lower cost sodium ion (?) battery tech.
https://www.moniteurautomobile.be/actu-auto/nouveaux-modeles/byd-seagull-11000-et-des-batteries-sodium-ion.html
Electric motor : TZ180XSH (permanent magnet synchronous for higher efficiency)
Kerb weight : 1,160–1,240 kg
Yes it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull
Might be a connectivity issue on your end (or the mobile link playing up).
Thanks, I put a strike through over the
offendingpart.It's not hard to beat "US craftsmanship", did the writer saw anything about the cybertruck?
Cars which won't pass inspection in the US and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
The export model, the Dolphin Mini, is expected in Europe in 2025.
When I post a comment that mentions Europe I keep that in mind.
Are you suggesting that there is a material difference of minimal testing standard between the EU and the USA?
Capital interests might have something to say about it in the US. No way they're letting the government allow those in.
They might not pass inspection, I don’t know. But that’s only in states with inspections. Not all states have those.
They still have regulations and certain standards need to be met. I think it's set by the NHTSA.
Unless they're over 25 years old. But then there's state laws for that too. I just want my kei truck.
The seagull ev being discussed is not 25 years old.
Any new vehicle sold in the US needs to pass NHTSA standards. We're not talking about emissions testing.
Would it not? I don’t know anything about that, so I can’t say, but would Biden be cracking down on imports if it wasn’t a concern for them?
I would say no at the prices they're selling for in China. The crackdown is due to the massive subsidies being pumped into these manufacturers by the Chinese government which would make it impossible for any other manufacturer to compete with them since they're selling them below cost.
Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, 'no threat'.
California is the largest economy in the United States, and one of the largest in the world. It’s also the one with the largest market for EVs in the US. As an added bonus, it’s very conveniently positioned on the west coast, with easy access to shipping lanes from China. And finally, it’s probably the state that’s least likely to care if a US auto maker on the other side of the nation is struggling. Only fifteen states in the US require inspections, and California isn’t one of them. In fact, the only state that isn’t on the east coast that requires an inspection is Texas. All other states have nothing but emissions tests, if that, and any EV would be excluded from those, for obvious reasons.
You don't live in reality.
That would include Michigan, which is where they design a lot of US domestic cars.
That's false. The same car is sold in Mexico & Brazil and probably other countries as well
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/03/01/byd-dolphin-mini-rolling-in-mexico-cheapest-electric-car-by-far/
Two other countries with extremely lax safety standards.
This may surprise you but US manufacturers count on a lot of income from selling outside the US. They’re all global conglomerates. Even looking through your roses colored glasses, do you really think legacy manufacturers will do well when they lose all of their global sales?
I've seen enough QA issues with most of the Chinese EVs I would highly doubt any of them make it to the USA for consumer sale at any scale. Some have overheating issues, panels fall off, cheap seat belts, uncomfortable seats, sizing issues (too small for larger Americans), goofy AC vents that blow weak when pointed downward and high when pointed at your face but don't allow for other adjustments.
BYD has been making buses and work trucks for the US market for years. I've only had a ride on a few BYD buses, but they seem to be quality.
Good to hear they've had some success in the US, but I do worry about the quality of their consumer products. Too many companies can't translate success in onr section of a market into another section.
I really want a small EV.
I mean at those prices you don't expect too much quality. Unlike Teslas that are poorly built but priced like the aren't
I agree with many of these points, but have two thoughts here. First, the same was true of many items being produced in China in the past, but quality control got better and honestly most of the products you can buy for a reasonable price are partly or wholly made in China. Second, Tesla is a good example of a US based company with many of the same issues. Loose panels, door handles that fall off, accelerators that get stuck, and so on. Bad engineering is not only available in Mandarin.
I hope they can produce a good quality electric car and help accelerate the transition.
1000% this.
This article is fuckin ridiculous. There hasn't been a Chinese auto manufacturer that is even CLOSE.
Ahh yes, when a product advertises that it is “well built” that is a massive red flag.
It was an American company doing a teardown of the vehicle that said it was well built.
So now we have Americans reverse-engineering Chinese products?
This timeline is definitely off the rails!
Why is it so shocking? Has the US car industry meaningfully evolved in the past several decades, pre-Musk Tesla aside? :P
UBS on its teardown of the BYD Seal.
Okay but how's the safety, reliability, and build quality? Good, or Chinesium?
"well built" ... "Chinese" 🤔
Even if there are no trade barriers, it would be very unsafe to drive a tiny car like this in the US due to the number of gigantic trucks and SUVs on the streets.
This is why new cars has been getting bigger and bigger and leading to this "car size arms race".
Or, we just want bigger vehicles. Pure supply and demand.
More evidence that I'm not an American, because I don't want a bigger vehicle
Don't get me wrong, I don't like that cars have been getting bigger and bigger either, they are unsafe for everyone but the occupants and they wear out the roads faster, but it is just something that is still actively happening.
I just got off the freeway jockeying for position with trucks whose hoods are the height of my entire car, so I am acutely aware that it's happening. It's just yet another way that I feel like an alien in my birth country.
I don't even like buying Chinese shoes because they fall apart before the season ends. Do these shoes spy on us as well ?
Yes but all cars with smart software or trackers such as OnStar spy on you and sell your data. A car that won't spy on you is that $12000 Toyota pickup that lacks most of these features designed for spy use (which won't come to the US even though I want one).
Smart shoes are a thing and probably collect data as well.
BYD was founded in 1995.