Spyke
canada·Canadabyveee

Changing consumer habits could spell the end of bagged milk

"Consumption of milk per capita has gone down every year over the last 30 years," says Sylvain Charlebois, director of the Agri-Food Analytics Lab at Dalhousie University. "Actually, it's gone down by more than 20 per cent since 2015."

While bagged milk is often cited as a unique Canadianism, it's actually not sold west of Ontario. Those who prefer it, however, say it's more cost efficient and some even believe it tastes better.

Changing consumer habits could spell the end of bagged milkhttps://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/changing-consumer-habits-could-spell-the-end-of-bagged-milk-1.6804820Open linkView original on lemmy.ca
lemmy.world

With all the news about microplastics maybe we should go back to glass bottles.

75
Revan343reply
lemmy.ca

Glass's issue is transportation cost, so you'll want to make milk supply more local...wait a minute, this is starting to sound like commie shit

74
BCsvenreply
lemmy.ca

We have glass bottle milk in vancouver area. $1-$2 deposit on the bottle, good incentive to return it when you get your new bottle.

23
Revan343reply
lemmy.ca

I don't know if I can sarcastically say 'sounds like commie shit' any harder before it would sound like I'm actually against it

That does sound fantastic. How's the shelf(/fridge) life of the milk?

11
BCsvenreply
lemmy.ca

It seemed on par with jugged/bagged milk as they were pasturizing it. It tasted much better though more like the milk I remember from the UK as a kid. Not sure if they feed differently or just smaller batches that get to market sooner.

4
lemmy.sdf.org

Used to live across the border in Southern BC. Had access to a glass-bottled, "cream-top" (non-homogenized) milk from a local dairy. Fridge life was in-line with regular jugs. Plus, it tasted better and was likely healthier ([EDIT: have not found verification for this at this time] homogenized milk contains fat globules small enough to directly absorb into the bloodstream without digestion, possibly contributing to heart disease).

3
Randomgalreply
lemmy.ca

Do you have a source for the fat molecules bit? That is a wild assertion, crazy if true. But I'm pretty sure fat doesn't work like that.

6
Revan343reply
lemmy.ca

I was thinking the same thing. Fat isn't water (read:blood) soluble, and I have a hard time imagining any significant amount emulsing into your blood stream

3

Indeed. It is worth noting that fat globules in dairy aren't JUST lipid. They are really a mixture of lipids, glycolipids, proteins, and other stuff. The glycolipids and proteins have polar and non-polar parts and organize into a membrane around the non-polar (hydrophobic) lipid fraction, keeping it from precipitating out of solution. Effectively, milk fat globules come with their own emulsifiers.

2

Have been looking for a reputable source on that - busy on work projects. Might be something that has been shown to be bunk at this point. I did, however, find a few recent interesting papers characterizing the physical structural changes that occur with homogenization. IIRC, the average globule size gets reduced to ~1μm in diameter.

2
Anticorpreply
lemmy.world

There was a local dairy in my hometown and they had a little shack set up on the road where you could buy bottles of milk. It was the best milk I've ever drunk in my life.

7

There's a dairy in my city that's really taking off in recent years with the same glass approach too. A lot of restaurants, cafes, etc all using their stuff now and if their social media following is any indication then a fair bit of regular consumers too. I like to remain optimistic that stuff like this continues to inspire more sustainable, local food and beverage companies.

2
dlpklreply
lemmy.world

Fuck it let's make our own milk at this point

6
Revan343reply
lemmy.ca

My wife says no cows, because apparently I underestimate the amount of milk a cow makes. I'm gonna have to get used to goat milk

4

It is much easier to raise a goat on a small acreage than it is to farm enough oats to extract a worthwhile amount of oat milk.

Also, haven't liked any oat milk I've tried. To be fair I don't like goat milk either, but it is much closer to what I'm used to, and would definitely be easier to get used to

4
Patchesreply
sh.itjust.works

They make mini cows.

How do you think they make those little quarts of milk?

4
BCsvenreply
lemmy.ca

There is NextMilk and NotMilk brands., both formulated to be similar to actual milk in texture, and taste. You won't be "Wow, I can't believe it's not milk" But it is surprising close compared to oat, soy, or almond milks

1
BCsvenreply
lemmy.ca

As in your love of actual cow milk, or the oats takes a lot of farming debate? Not Milk is like pineapple juice cabbage juice and other components that somehow come together to work like milk.

1

Oats take a lot of space and equipment to farm, and any brand name anything doesn't help; the idea here was self-sufficiency

1
lemmy.ca

I would absolutely love the glass bottles.

I worry about breakage and substandard cleaning in the coming era of downsized food safety checkers in the Bitcoin Milhouse cabinet, but a few plebes dying from salmonella will fix that spending ... almost.

14
discuss.online

I dont think any liquids are sold in cardboard. It woukd leak. Usually its lined with plastic, so no longer compostable.

But glass cab be reused.

13
dlpklreply
lemmy.world

What about cardboard lined with natural wax?

5
GBU_28reply
lemm.ee

I don't think cardboard recycling can tolerate anything like that

2

It could happen. It seems to be working for Farm Boy.

3
kbin.social

With all the price gouging happening and shrinkflation, changing consumer habits could spell the end of food.

39
lemmy.ca

Is it "changing consumer preferences", or is it the industry seeing an opportunity for shrinkflation.

30

Personally, I stopped buying milk. My daughter has a dairy allergy but I used to buy almond milk for her and dairy milk for myself, but I've switched to just almond milk for both of us to reduce my contribution to the beef industry. I'll still buy some dairy products like cheese and ice cream, but generally am trying to minimize my demand.

2
Grassreply
sh.itjust.works

Don't make me try this ... Carbonated milk was inexplicably revolting but nitrogen may actually work.

2

You'd need a creamer nozzle (like used for Guinness Draft) and a very cold line chiller, but it just might work. Kegging the milk would be the hard part, but it could be done.

3
fedia.io

So Canadians are giving up on milk and just drinking maple syrup now? Sweet!

10
lemmy.ca

I once made the mistake of telling my american coworkers that I buy over a gallon of fresh maple syrup from a local sugar shack each year and I was excited for spring because I was running low… I think I warped their perception of the canadian diet.

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Holyginzreply
lemmy.world

We know in our hearts it's not true. But we cling to what little magic remains in our minds and hearts and enjoy the fantasy that it is true.

4

Then if it helps, here are a few things I use it for: crepes, pancakes, French toast, lattes, coffee, maple whipped cream, oatmeal (maple and cream make a mean porridge), I fry eggs in maple syrup and butter, use it in icing, add it to salad dressing, make a glaze from it, sugar/pecan pie tarts, instead of syrup in cocktails, I’ll use it as a topping on ice cream…

It was the primary sweetener in Canada until cane sugar took over, so anything that needs sugar or brown sugar you can substitute maple for.

I usually buy 4L which lasts a year.

2
folkravreply
lemmy.ca

The crazy part is, I don’t consume maple syrup that often. But when I do, it’s always way too much.

3
BCsvenreply
lemmy.ca

It makes a good salad dressing when mixed with balsamic vinegar and oil. Also a decent BBQ sauce of Ketchup, Mustard, Soy Sauce, and Maple Syrup

2
folkravreply
lemmy.ca

My wife has a mean marinade using maple syrup. I love to use it with chicken thighs I throw on the barbecue for that sweet caramelization.

2
BCsvenreply
lemmy.ca

Nice. It is also good mixed into vodka :)

1
folkravreply
lemmy.ca

I have bottles of Sortilège (maple whiskey) and a Tomahawk maple cream (similar to Bailey’s) on the kitchen bar. I don’t even like whiskey usually, but with maple syrup everything becomes good I guess

2

Hmm, never tried Tomahawk. I will look for that.

2

I tried explaining this to some Australian friends online and they thought I was trolling.

2
lemmy.ca

How will our kids get their daily dose of microplastics????!!!!

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yeehawreply
lemmy.ca

Don't worry, they don't have to try, it's likely in well water at this point. Guaranteed most of your store bought food probably has it too.

6

Bottled water? Most mustards and ketchups? Or well, any liquids in a plastic container? They now sell even olive oil in plastic bottles. I avoid them like the plague. We all should.

4
lemmy.world

You guys drink milk out of bags? We use glass, plastic, or cardboard jugs down in the States.

7

Some places do things a bit differently. More news at 11

13

It's not even all of Canada, just Ontario, Quebec, and the maritimes

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PhAzEreply
lemmy.ca

Yea, it's shipped in a rectangular bag. It goes into a milk holder that holds the bag snug, and you snip the corner off so it pours like a spout. The jug that holds it provides the handle and stability for the bag. When the bag is empty, toss it, put the next bag in.

2

That sounds like a pretty good system once you have the jug, assuming those bags don't look like jellyfish to sea turtles.

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Leekerreply
lemmy.world

Is the bag held really well by the milk holder? I'd always worry about the bag tipping out of the milk holder, while pouring.

1

Yea, I've been using it all my life and never once had a bag fall out.

1

Well enough. The bag of milk forces enough air that it's basically suction held until the milk's almost gone.

0
lemmy.ca

I love bagged milk, but I can't go through THREE FUCKING BAGS as a family of two.

They're more eco-friendly than the box or the jug, but I guess that goes against the goal of consuming more raw materials.

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veeereply
lemmy.ca

More eco-friendly? Where I am we can’t recycle any of the bags whereas the box and jug we can.

11

It's worth remembering that being accepted in a blue bag and actually being recycled are two very different things. Much of the plastic we've "recycled" over the years just ended up in landfills in China.

Remember the old "Where does it go?" "Away," PSAs from the late '80s and early '90s? Well, plastic recycling has been that, but at an industrial scale.

9
lemmy.ca

Yes, the plastic is quite thin and requires less power to recycle than the waxed cardboard or thick plastic jugs, if your recycling ends up recycled at all.

3

Thank you, good read! I just remember finding out a while ago that it was better than the environment (and it does make sense given how little plastic is used), but couldn't find the source again.

With this new information, will consumers swing over to milk bags? Bagged milk is sold only in four-litre allotments in Canada, which may be too much for some consumers, leading to unconsumed or spoiled milk. This would wipe out any environmental benefits.

Precisely my concern above hahah, I don't see why they can't be sold individually with a little stamp on them stating the brand, the quantity and the percentage. We don't really drink milk, we only use it for cooking and hot beverages.

2

In Canada the energy costs are less important than the plastic waste as the majority of our electricity comes from hydro or nuclear.

And the plastic IS waste, "recycled" plastic can only make up a tiny faction of newly manufacture products and most waste is rejected anyway because it's not "clean" plastic.

2

Also, the cardboard hasn't been waxed in years. It's plastic lined

0

As a family of 5, we go through it easily in a week.

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lemmy.world

I've always wondered about the bagged milk... Don't they get broken a lot? I'm genuinely curious

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Dalrazreply
lemmy.ca

I'm in my 40s and I can only remember one bag breakingon me, but that's because my dumb ass dropped it.

11
MrJameGumbreply
lemmy.world

I'm also in my 40s and I can remember a lot of busted milk jugs over the years... Maybe we should be using the bags instead lol

4
lemmy.ca

My mom busted a 4L jug on the stairs. The cap popped off. It's never the same after.

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folkravreply
lemmy.ca

The plastic feels a bit like a heavy duty ziplock bag, or piping bag material, made as a tube (so strong shape, structurally) then flat sealed on both ends. Quite thick so not that easy to puncture by accident. Once in a while there’s one that leaks but they get removed at the grocery store by stockers, mostly. It’s easy to spot, it just looks flat and at worst (if the hole is on the bottom), there’s a liter and some of milk all over in their fridge.

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Anticorpreply
lemmy.world

How do you store it once it is opened? How do you pour it?

2
sh.itjust.works

Stores sell sturdy plastic jugs that the milk bags fit into snugly, so it basically pours like a pitcher. You just snip a small corner off the top of the bag once it's inserted into The jug. The jug lasts forever, though it does get funky over time with any dribbles of milk that make it between the bag and jug.

7

Thanks. Someone else described it, but the picture helps. This is a completely different method for milk distribution than we have where I live.

2

It happens, but not very often. I used to work dairy in a grocery store, so you’d see it, fairly often, but usually we the workers would catch it (because the bag would be leaking).

I’ve never seen a bag pop, or puncture outside of that.

5

Exactly. I'm not sure what metaphor fits best. If there isn't one, it's an odd combination of "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" and "chicken and the egg".

They can't claim there's no demand for it if it isn't on the shelves in the first place.

Times change, the customer is always right in matters of taste, etc.

1
lemmy.ca

It's funny we have no issues drinking milk from many animals, but people would be grossed out knowing it's milk from a human breast, and wouldn't drink it.

Edit: changed any to many

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Patchesreply
sh.itjust.works

It's funny we have no issues drinking milk from any animal

Bruh we definitely have issues drinking milk from other animals.

Have you ever seen anyone drink Dog Milk? Cat Milk? Possum Milk? Pangolin Milk? Motherfuckin... Platypus Milk? They all mammals.

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Kage520reply
lemmy.world

What I'm wondering is, we have made strides to synthetically make milk with the use of yeast to make the proteins. So theoretically, we could make any milk. Why are we making cows milk this way?

6

Because we have an entire industry of cows that produce so much milk that they must be milked, or they will get sick and die.

1

I wonder how much cost and risk is involved in reintroducing it.

1

I grew up with bagged milk but don't have it where I live now. With my two kids and I enjoying breakfast cereal regularly, our recycling bin fills up fast. I miss milk bags. So low waste. I remember we'd slit the end and use them for sandwich bags in our lunch bags. Or use them to wrap blocks of cheese.

I swear I remember my mum freezing sealed bags of milk for the cooler to keep meat cold on the way to the cabin.

2
lemmy.world

Tastes better 🤣🤣🤣🤣 those micro plastics sure kick up the flavor a few notches!!

2

Don't worry, those plastic jugs and plastic lined cardboard boxes are fulfilling your daily microplastic requirements just fine.

11

Nearly ever milk receptacle except for glass will be sealed with plastic. Microplastics are not a bagged milk specific problem.

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sh.itjust.works

Are these changing consumer habits mostly being driven by how insanely expensive and low quality milk products are becoming? Canadian cheese and butter are trash and cost an arm and a leg - especially when you get into goat and sheep cheeses that a lot of lactose intolerant west coasters prefer.

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lemmy.ca

Having had the cheese available in America, I have to say better grasses makes better cheese.

I refute your assessment of Canadian cheese, my good man, and I shall be available by the flagpole after recess. It's a duel.

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xmunkreply
sh.itjust.works

Oh we're definitely better than America but we should be able to match up against Europe.

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Anticorpreply
lemmy.world

Have you ever tried Beacher's cheese? You should try some good quality cheese before dismissing all American made cheese.

1

I've actually had some splendid American cheese but it's quite the rarity. Grafton is a solid brand and some of their aged cheddars are amazing.

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dubyakayreply
lemmy.ca

Why are you getting down voted so much? You are absolutely right. Canadian milk products (including milk) are complete garbage. We can thank our milk cartels for that, plus the really stupid regulations put into place over concerns of germs that basically limits the amount of raw or non-homogenized milk on the market.

How come most of Europe can produce far superior tasting cheeses and also consume fresh milk from milk vending machines, but there's an inane control on it in North America?

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GBU_28reply
lemm.ee

"lactose intolerant West coasters"

0

Checks out, I'm from the west coast and I'm intolerant of lactose products of poor quality.

But fuck thoese milk drinkers back east.

2
xmunkreply
sh.itjust.works

As a lactose intolerant west coaster I'm really confused if that's setting people off. We've got a huge Asian population out here and lactose intolerance is much higher among them. Personally, while we're not of Asian descent both me and my partner are lactose intolerant so finding reasonable dairy products that don't give us diarrhea is a priority - and we're not shy of making our own stovetop cheese if all we can get is milk.

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Right, the dude used it as a flippant insult as if lactose intolerance is a West Coast fad when in reality there's lactose intolerance is everywhere and isn't a fad

1

Shit bro getting downvoted by the dairy industry 😂

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howrarreply
lemmy.ca

We're talking about milk here, not milk products.

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xmunkreply
sh.itjust.works

Is milk somehow not a milk product? I think my point stands for milk products in general - goat milk is insanely expensive in Canada and it's not significantly more expensive to produce than cow's milk.

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howrarreply
lemmy.ca

How is the quality of cheese relevant to the sale of bagged milk?

0
howrarreply
lemmy.ca

Nor are most people making cheese with bagged milk from the grocery stores.

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lemm.ee

Do you usually make the cheeses you buy in the grocery store?

Your argument makes no sense.

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xmunkreply
sh.itjust.works

There are probably some slight differences between milk used for further processing and milk sold directly to consumers but it's of a very similar quality. A lot of cheese in Canada is made from third party milk rather than milk produced on premises.

1

You can make the argument that the quality of milk in general is dropping, and that's reflected in the quality of milk products. But to say that poor quality of milk products themselves are driving the decrease in milk consumption? I don't see how the logic follows.

-1

bagged milk is a pretty wild concept to me, but obviously there are a lot of facets of american life that are fucking bonkers to everyone else (and lots of us) so I cant really speak to it

1
lemmy.ca

I just had a shower thought, probably dumb and I am tired, but how about pipes to deliver regular liquids/fluids? 🤔

I think I read somewhere in Germany brewery would have pipes to bars delivering a continuous supply of beer.

Now let's do that with ultrafiltered and/or ultra-high-temperature milk (less prone to spoiling).

How about adding pipes for beer (or some other alcohol or wine), cooking oil (whichever most suitable), and any other frequently used liquid I forgot?

If spoilage is well controlled, would that be a less energy intensive distribution method?

1

If we're piping allergens straight into people's homes, might as well have another one for peanut butter.

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ralakusreply
lemmy.world

Just imagine the initial costs and maintenance costs of those pipes. It's already expensive routing water for people's houses. It's much less costly to do what was done in the past and have regular deliveries for those products in a reusable glass container and regular pickups of those containers. You also wouldn't really get a choice on the variant of the liquid you want like the type of beer, oil, or milk since everyone has their own preference or needs like with allergies.

Imagine if someone moves into a new house with a beer service line installed and they don't drink beer. The beer in that line would go bad and get really disgusting and probably contaminate beer in the rest of the line. The same goes for milk too. Imagine how disgusting a pipe filled with months old milk would be. Even ultra high temperature pasteurization won't save it. Imagine if you get a leak in your milk or beer pipe. Imagine if gets too cold or hot for the liquid and you get really warm beer out of the line or a slushy beer solution.

If you can guarantee those service lines will be used regularly, then I can see it being worth it since the maintenance costs and installation costs would be outweighed by the savings. Beer lines from a brewery to bars makes sense since the bars will be regularly going through a constant supply of beer. But on a regular consumer level, it's not worth it.

Tl;dr It's a logistical nightmare.

4

It's also a health nightmare. Beer and oil are some of the unhealthiest liquids you can consume (for different reasons, and in excessive quantities obviously), and having a functionality unlimited supply of them directly to your home would wreak havoc on the health of people with low self control or addiction issues. Like imagine an alcoholic living with the prospect of unlimited beer they could access at literally any time they wanted. That would be hell for them.

2
veeereply
lemmy.ca

Do you eat cereal with water?

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PhAzEreply
lemmy.ca

Ugh, might as well be water or apple juice then

8
UckyBonreply
lemmy.world

So would you say you still drink mammal's milk because your taste buds are a bit underdeveloped? I mean, if you can't even tell nut and grain milk from apple juice. Sure some good stuff in milk that helps your brain 🧠 huh?

0
LostWonreply
lemmy.ca

They're pretty clearly saying that nut milks are watery and taste nothing like dairy milk. Coconut milk would be closer to the creaminess of dairy milk at least, but it's expensive and might require heating first for those of us with sensitive stomachs. It'd also have to be grown ethically, for those who actually care about human labour and environmental impacts.

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UckyBonreply
lemmy.world

I'm sorry that the options in your country are so bad, maybe one day you get some good brands around. If you're talking about ethics you shouldn't even be considering dairy. But hey, you're probably a better gymnast than I am when it comes to environmental impacts :)

0

Because fuck being an empathetic human and actually connecting with people as equals, right? Keep on winning the entire Internet over with that unimpeachable charm and welcoming approach.

2
lemmy.world

Oh ya, totally useless. Humans don't derive any nutrition from milk. It just teleports through their body.

7
arinreply
lemmy.world

I've yet to see adults drinking milk naturally meant for humans(aka breast milk) the dairy industry really got us good in brain washing

1

I don't think any food is naturally meant for us, but that doesn't stop us from eating it. Humans are pretty good at digesting organic compounds for sustenance.

4

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1

This isn't a Canadian specific thing. Its common in most of the world.

But the problem isnt milk, its animal milk. Soy and oat milk should be fine.

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