Yeah they are. But fun fact, garnishments and liens work just as well without an INTERNATIONAL TREATY and a surprising number of these loons still work and own stuff.
Yes but they're their own country, and the USA needs to form a treaty to have say in their business, unless they're "travelling" or receiving welfare or benefit in some other way
The reality is that they are not bodies politic, have no demos, and every person everywhere ever is subject to the law of the jurisdiction in which they are present.
"I don't have anything to do with that kid! Why should I have to pay child support?"
Unfortunately I know people like that in real life, who don't seem to understand that the child support is largely because they want nothing to do with their kid
She is the only one granted the choice to end the responsibility. The father is left with massive financial responsibility for 18 years, that the mother had the choice to prevent. This even occurs in cases of rape.
Child support isn't meant to punish a parent that's no longer in the child's life. Even if thats the end result, it's meant to support the child.
Because of the bodily autonomy argument there won't be true equality surrounding pregnancy because nobody has (or should have) weight of decision of whether to carry the child except for the person who does so.
But if a child is brought into the world as a result, it needs to be supported. And that's the responsibility of the parents- willing or not.
I think that if male birth control becomes safe and available it will be much closer to equality.
Your logic is fundamentally flawed. In several ways. I see several people arguing with you ineffectively because they assume you are arguing in good faith or have a coherent position... Neither of which I am convinced you possess.
In the US (and most of the world) it is a fundamental right of bodily autonomy that any individual is not subjected to any forced medical situation in the support of another person's life, regardless of that person's age, gender or relationship with the other person. Even if we agreed on when personhood happens (I assume we disagree on it) at no point must one person give up their bodily rights for another. If you provide a special case for pregnancy then we are in a discussion of if your inconsistent belief structure is valid.
Your logic is fundamentally flawed. In several ways. I see several people arguing with you ineffectively because they assume you are arguing in good faith or have a coherent position…
You're free to disagree with me, but everything I say on here is in good faith.
In the US (and most of the world) it is a fundamental right of bodily autonomy that any individual is not subjected to any forced medical situation in the support of another person’s life, regardless of that person’s age, gender or relationship with the other person.
Yep, I agree.
Even if we agreed on when personhood happens (I assume we disagree on it) at no point must one person give up their bodily rights for another.
I have no strong opinion on when personhood happens, I simply don't know.
If you provide a special case for pregnancy then we are in a discussion of if your inconsistent belief structure is valid.
A special case for what? You never expressed your disagreement with me.
If they were going to want the baby aborted, they shouldn't have had sex without a condom. You don't get to cum inside someone and then tell them what to do with it. Your jizz, your problem.
Obviously not. They're saying that the person that gets pregnant gets to decide whether or not they want to abort. It's not the decision of the sperm donor.
What a person does with their own body is entirely up to them. If you play your part in making that baby, and the person you came inside of plays their part too, you both have to pay for it. The sperm donor has one opportunity to opt out of being a parent, and that one opportunity is when they're having sex.
I love this assertion by them. Because it's them saying they are an independent nation. But they are living on or within the US's declared borders and do not have a treaty as the American Indians do. Therefore they'd qualify as invaders or secessionist and the US military/immigration authorities should have jurisdiction to prosecute them. Afterall, this Sovereign Citizen is currently abroad in another country.
It's a pretty weird claim. They think they are their own country? Okay then... Do they realize that foreign countries can be taken to war against their wishes? I hope so, because that's probably going to happen to a lot of these people.
Is there no counter narrative of unsatisfied customers who chime in on every post to say "I tried this nonsense in family court and the judge took my kids gave my ex sole custody!"
If your serious, it's something we do every few years to see how many people live in the US (like how many people live at your house), what race and gender you all are, income and that sort of thing. Basically it just gives the government a general idea of how many people live in the US, whether or not they are citizens and other social and economic shit. You fill them out anonymously and it only effects general population reports and stuff, it doesn't really effect you personally. It's pretty much only used for statistical purposes.
I think the MDHS one is Mississippi child support and this "sovereign citizen" is a deadbeat parent (surprise).
They knock on doors and write whatever what said by people
They ask foreigners only 7 questions and 33 questions for citizens
If you say you are unicorn mare from Equestria they will write that here lives unicorn mare from Equestria
It is used to get factual information about what people live here
They don't ask pasports or any other document
Participating in census is not mandatory here. If you make census mandatory it will probably be no better than existing beaurocracy and defeats purpose of getting on-ground truth.
The US of course tries to get everyone to respond, and sends people out to follow up with people who don't respond, such as this sovereign citizen in the original post. (The picture is of the 2020 Census envelope and as such is ~4 years old, by the way.)
Some European countries do an administrative records census, wherein they know who is in the country based on passport control, birth and death records, and so on. These censuses have the (admitted) flaw that someone who is in the country illegally would almost certainly not be counted, but on the flip side they are MUCH cheaper and faster than the US-style census. It's basically just running an SQL query on the database.
Other countries do a mix of the two. Even the US uses administrative records sometimes, if good data is available, and they can't get a response another way.
The US's situation is more complex than many countries, because driver's licenses (which serve as IDs) are issued by the individual states, not the federal government, and relatively few Americans ever get a passport. So, the closest things to a "master list" of people in the US that the government has are things like IRS and Social Security records - but those have flaws, too - for example, they don't count legal visitors.
I do not know what China et al do to complete their censuses.
They knock on doors and write whatever what said by people
They ask foreigners only 7 questions and 33 questions for citizens
If you say you are unicorn mare from Equestria they will write that here lives unicorn mare from Equestria
It is used to get factual information about what people live here
They don't ask pasports or any other document
Participating in census is not mandatory here. If you make census mandatory it will probably be no better than existing beaurocracy and defeats purpose of getting on-ground truth.
I do not know what China et al do to complete their censuses.
I mean for govt to know how much each ring of hell is polulated and who in fact lives there instead of just registered needs either to knock on the door or spy on everyone. Not that I know what China does for their censuses.
Honestly their BS does kind of work they just seem unable to grasp that all the things they're saying also apply to everyone else. They don't have to aknowledge their electricity providers authority to charge them for electricity and the electric company doesn't have to keep supplying it. Its like some kind of extreme narcisicm.
'Cept in most locales you have to maintain your home's "habitability status" to not get it condemned, which requires having a functional electrical supply. And usually also working plumbing, heat, some manner of cooking apparatus, and a refrigerator.
"Muh Freedumb!" aside, these types of code requirements were as I understand it at least initially put into place to prevent slumlords from charging rent for an "apartment" that has access to none of the above.
Anyhow, if you really don't want to pay electric bills it's really not too tough to get yourself some solar panels or something. Somehow that never occurs to these people. There are counties out in the boondocks where you are permitted by law to live fully off the grid if you feel like it, so maybe they ought to move there and quit bothering everybody with their nonsense.
I think water and sewage are required but I don't think electricity is because a property is technically habitable without power. As long as there is not a vulnerable person confirmed living at the address. I mean it all seems a bit arbitrary, but apparently those are the rules.
I think it's mostly about making it unpleasant for squatters without violating their human rights too much. It straddles the line but not too badly.
This is another one of them there varies by state/county/city things. Where I live you must be connected to the grid. This causes problems for people who don't want to be connected to the grid, i.e. they have more than enough solar or windmill and battery capacity to not require it from a functional standpoint. But the county forbids you from not paying the local electricity monopoly their monthly bribe.
This is relatively recent -- as of the last 4 or 5 years or so. The power company now helpfully charges a "connection fee" if you use 0 kWh, which started happening exactly at the same time the law was passed to make it illegal not to be connected to them. I can't help but conclude that these two facts are not coincidental.
My previous area was like that, and that was why I didn't bother getting a battery system for my solar. And the connection fee went up, and up, and up.
The appeal is there. Imagine not having to pay any taxes or any of your bills. The idea practically sells itself to anyone who has no civics education.
I mean, that does work. Unless the letter is sent certified mail, it's not guaranteed to arrive. It could be lost on the way so they can't prove you got it.
Of course if you write all over it and post it online then you clearly got it.
By and large, I think most of these people are just trying to get out of legal and financial obligations. I bet if a government agency sent them a check, they'd fucking cash it. But it's when they're required to pay money or complete the littlest forms that they balk. They are just bad scammers.
Yup, its an old Civil War era law for folks who tried to avoid dying in the Civil War by moving to Canada. Reasoning was, if you wanted to draft dodge you could support the war financially instead. Then during the early 2000s as folks who graduated college at the wrong time and ended up more college debt than they can ever pay off started moving abroad to escape it, they increased the fee and took other steps to make renouncing more difficult since expats were renouncing their citizenship to stop owing taxes in the US
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not from US, but I'm pretty sure this is not how it works.
Ah but it is. The US is, as far as I know, the only country who taxes its citizens who are living abroad. And yes, it is as stupid and shitty as it sounds.
Perhaps I could have worded it better. I meant not accruing additional taxes to pay. But if you're already debt dodging by changing countries, realistically what is the federal government gonna do?
Stateless people (not this whacko) are often stateless through no fault of their own. Shifting borders, oversight in government policy, or legal discrimination have deprived them of the rights and privileges they are entitled to.
Pretty much wherever they go, they have a hard time getting ID, enrolling in school, finding legal housing or work, etc.
About 100K Armenians were just made stateless and kicked out of Azerbaijan recently. You didn't hear about it because of Israel and no one cares about Azerbaijan.
These were people who predated the Soviet Union, became part of the Soviet Union, outlasted the Soviet Union, and then wanted their own country. They were living on land claimed by Azerbaijan but they understandably thought "That's a made up country. They just made it up. We can make up our own country."
Unfortunately, "living somewhere for a hundred years" doesn't count for much today. So Azeris kicked them out of their homes and they had to leave to Armenia. Azerbaijan is now eyeing Armenian territory and these people have to apply for Armenian citizenship, through no real fault of their own.
Very changed. And, worse, whitewashed. The original man was Iranian. The was a French film made about the situation too. A white man played him in that movie as well. Plus, it was a comedy.
There's a certain level of brain malfunction necessary to think this shit will work, and one way that can manifest is poor coordination for fine movements like writing.
Nope, I Do remember a few middle school dropouts though and how incredibly dumb they were. I assume they weren’t allowed to drop out in elementary. Idk, thirty years ago.
Have them go through customs every time they leave their property to get groceries.
Get yourself a conscientious officer who makes sure he doesn't have enough hours in a day to fetch something he forgot on his first run.
Btw, tough luck with your utilities, I assume it's quite a lot of paperwork for international piping and electrical connections, especially if your utilities company is motivated not losing 100$ a month.
Give em what they want and put em on a boat onto international waters and they can build waterworld, or not. Better than indulging their make-believe and causing everyone else a headache.
Only thing worse than citizenship is statelessness.
You think the government is fucking you over now? Wait till you're denied legal residency practically anywhere on earth and your very existence is considered a criminal trespass.
Is this the kind of people who post disclaimers in social media that "unauthorize" the company running said social media from using the "content" they post there?
Should these “sovereign citizens” be arrested and put in illegal migrant camps the minute they set foot on public roads, or should we reserve that VIP treatment only for brown Spanish-speaking people?
Sovereign citizens are some of the stupidest dregs of society. It doesn’t even take proper legal training to realize how wrong and how stupid their statements are when they do this kind of garbage.
It requires such a weird pick and choose approach to the law to make these arguments and it just baffles me. Like who do they even expect to back them?
Also, "I'm only affected by international treaties because I'm a Sovereign Citizen" and "This correspondence is illegal duo to US law Title 18 1341&1342.”
The all rights reserved line confuses me the most here. Where and to what are they asserting copyright?
Are they claiming copyright on all that gibberish that they copied from a webpage somewhere or are they claiming that MDHS and the Census Bureau are violating copyright by printing their name and address on the letters?
Without a treaty with Mississippi (which I don’t think a state can enter into an international treaty to begin with) or the US Government, this chucklefuck can’t really assert that they want their copyright protected and enforced by the US when they are claiming that the US violated that copyright (still don’t know what is supposed to be copyrighted).
Another thing always frustrates me with this stuff is that anyone who has watched the news in the past 40 years should be well aware that the US and plenty of other countries don’t really give a shit about sovereignty unless there’s a treaty, a bunch of nuclear weapons, a big ass military, or a powerful economy protecting it.
They're trying to claim copyright for what they wrote on the letter, so it can't be shown to any third party without their permission.
That way it's impossible to prove in court that they received the notice, cause the judge isn't allowed to see it.
AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED
I am assuming you posted this in jest, so forgive me if I've missed the bus, but these are actually very important things to ask for everyone when approached by LE. Charges get dismissed when they answer them wrong or inaccurately. I many cases, they do not have the right to withhold an articulable suspicion, so getting their lack of a response is extremely important, and these two questions are how you get that.
That said, people can also use them to be obnoxious, so I also assume that might have been the joke here. Sorry again. I'm very dense.
Several years ago I was unlawfully arrested for refusing to sign a medical release. I fought the charge and had it dropped, but the experience was extremely upsetting.
In the US, law enforcement can and will:
Attempt to coerce you into incriminating yourself.
Attempt to trick you into consenting to a search of your property.
Attempt to stop you for long enough to find evidence or suspicion of a crime, or provoke you into commiting one.
Everyone should know how to exercise their rights to politely but firmly deal with this behavior.
That's rough, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I went through a situation where the cop made threats, harassed me at work, and followed me around for a week because I had witnessed him planting evidence and discretely told him in case he didn't realize what he was doing was a crime. I honestly thought he would appreciate the discretion or at the very least inform me of why I was wrong. Nope, he went irrational. So I learned my rights and admittedly was an obnoxious dick the first opportunity I had to exercise them. My response wasn't far off from this thread's top comment. It didn't get me arrested but the guy was furious and made every effort to fuck me over. Luckily he was incompetent and the judge dismissed the docket then chewed him out for wasting the courts time. After that, I've remained courteous and civil with cops, but they only get what I am legally required to say, and not another word.
Lots of countries have a variant of these crazies. e.g. Freemen of the Land in the UK, Ireland & commonwealth, Reichsburger in Germany. It all boils down to the same thing - very, very stupid people think they can steal property, dodge taxes or get out of legal trouble with pseudo legal incantations based on misinterpretation of obscure treaties or defunct laws. And naturally what happens is they miraculously transform minor infractions into massive fines and actual prison time. Very, very stupid people and occasionally very dangerous.
It's really successful psy op propaganda. Divide and conquer. Make people fight against their own country from within, if you're lucky you won't have to fire a single bullet, just fan the flames until the country burns itself to the ground.
This very much walks the line between "sovereign citizen lunatic" and "needs to be committed to a mental institution." Although to be fair, it's a pretty blurry line.
Title 18 1341 covers fraud by US mail. I kind of doubt that official government agencies, with charters and legal authorities for operation, are committing mail fraud on the regular and that sovereign citizens are the only ones smart enough to peel back the veil.
Maybe the rest of us sheeple need to wake up.
I wonder what kind of protections and rights that sovereign citizens actually have. Non-US citizen resident aliens and tourists with Visas all enjoy some rights. Native peoples with tribal sponsorship have another set of rights. Sovereign citizens fall into none of those buckets as they reject the notion of obtaining permission to enter and reside in-country and they also apparently renounce citizenship if they had it in the first place. Does this mean that they fall into the illegal alien classification? As people with no country, where would they even be deported to?
I kind of doubt that official government agencies, with charters and legal authorities for operation, are committing mail fraud on the regular and that sovereign citizens are the only ones smart enough to peel back the veil.
I think that is a great summary of their beliefs.
Sovcits don’t have the right to renounce their nationality as far as the USA government is concerned.
There is an official process to remove USA citizenship/nationality, it costs money and has to be done at an embassy. See here:
“The U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Supreme Court have concluded that the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality […] does not exist where a renunciant claims a right to continue to reside in the United States, unless the renunciant demonstrates that residence will be as an alien documented properly under U.S. law.”
Since sovcits don’t have a second nationality, they can’t live here legally as an alien. So basically, their request to renounce their nationality would be rejected. They still owe taxes and child support, so sad for them. They still may be able to reject their citizenship (right to passports, right to vote) but not their nationality and couldn’t be deported. I’m not a lawyer, I mean, just thought it was interesting. I imagine children who’s parents have not gotten them a birth certificate would have similar (but fixable) legal problems.
Anyway, stateless people do actually exist in the world, they are refugees and face hardship. The UN considers it a human rights problem.
I found this article interesting (it is about stateless refugees trapped in the USA, and this law college would like to advocate for them):
Heck no, voting would create enjoinder merging the real person with the legal person and they'd have to write their name in all capital letters from then on and put a gold fringe on all their flags
Remember in Contact when she was in the ship and the like....ghost face kept coming off of her face and saying other stuff? Yeah. That's what would happen.
They have the finest education Google University offers. Given the quality of Google's search results is rapidly circling the drain, this is truer than ever.
Meanwhile me, "No one by that name has lived here since at least X" or "No such business at this address, the LLC was dissolved in 2017". I get a lot of credit card offers for previous owners and businesses they sat up. Sometimes for businesses that haven't existed in years.
I throw that stuff straight in the recycle bin. If the previous owner cant be arsed to change the mailing address of their rental LLCs, I can't be arsed to do it either.
My father gets credit card offers to this very day addressed to my cat, because he used its name to sign up for a duplicate free trial for one of those CD-of-the-month clubs in the '90's. That cat died of old age two decades ago, but somehow gets "preapproved" credit card offers -- plus a ton of other ridiculous junk mail.
What was your cat's name? Please tell me it's nothing a sane human would name their actual child. I'm picturing credit offers addressed to "Mister Snifferbootles Smith"
Harry brandishes his wand in the familiar circular pattern and shouts: "HABEAS CORPUS". He can feel the spell take effect. The judge's eyes glaze over, and she releases Harry's client due to lack of sufficient evidence to hold them.
This section contemplates mail fraud and the penalties incurred for committing said fraud.
I find it incredibly entertaining that, although these laws magically do not apply to them, these people invoke them to attempt to intimidate government officials.
That's a lot of magik incantations right there or plain old ignorant wishful thinking - I'm not sure which.
I did know a guy that tried to be a sovereign citizen. He was never the brightest wick in the candelabra and was also a huge conspiracy nut and misinformed health nut ever. Overall, he was pretty harmless and never caused anyone any problems. Just a really strange guy.
"I'm a sovereign citizen your laws don't apply to me, except when they pertain to rights that I like"
I wouldn't mind the movement too much if they actually practiced what they preached and went and lived on some large ranch somewhere in the middle of nowhere and grew all their own food and never left.
They pretend that it's like going back to basics hunter gatherer lifestyle, but really it's just about not paying taxes.
I think it's the general "mom said you can't go over this line, what're you gonna do, what're you gonna do, what're you gonna do, what're you gonna do".
On principle they are right, in general they're just intolerable little brothers.
It's a shame because I agree with them in principle (I don't feel like a UK citizen, I feel like a human) but they seem to lack awareness of reality. Yes, the government is overbearing and an unjustified power in your life, no that doesn't mean you can pretend they don't exist and not face consequences. I wish it were that easy
The MDHS State Disbursement Unit is the Child Support department. Dude went nuts because he doesn't want to pay child support. What a POS.
One of their biggest things they're always trying to do is "discharge" theur child support.
Yeah they are. But fun fact, garnishments and liens work just as well without an INTERNATIONAL TREATY and a surprising number of these loons still work and own stuff.
Yes but they're their own country, and the USA needs to form a treaty to have say in their business, unless they're "travelling" or receiving welfare or benefit in some other way
The reality is that they are not bodies politic, have no demos, and every person everywhere ever is subject to the law of the jurisdiction in which they are present.
And I imagine thEy had no contract with the child in question
"I don't have anything to do with that kid! Why should I have to pay child support?"
Unfortunately I know people like that in real life, who don't seem to understand that the child support is largely because they want nothing to do with their kid
What if before birth they prove that they wanted the child aborted?
If they are forced to be pregnant with it, that's their choice.
Have you ever spent nine months with a pregnant woman? They don't do it because it's fun.
That's not how it works.
Of course not, I'm asking if that's how it should work?
No, it should not. When two consenting adults have sex without protection, the resulting pregnancy shouldn't be the sole problem of the woman.
She is the only one granted the choice to end the responsibility. The father is left with massive financial responsibility for 18 years, that the mother had the choice to prevent. This even occurs in cases of rape.
Child support isn't meant to punish a parent that's no longer in the child's life. Even if thats the end result, it's meant to support the child.
Because of the bodily autonomy argument there won't be true equality surrounding pregnancy because nobody has (or should have) weight of decision of whether to carry the child except for the person who does so.
But if a child is brought into the world as a result, it needs to be supported. And that's the responsibility of the parents- willing or not.
I think that if male birth control becomes safe and available it will be much closer to equality.
Your logic is fundamentally flawed. In several ways. I see several people arguing with you ineffectively because they assume you are arguing in good faith or have a coherent position... Neither of which I am convinced you possess.
In the US (and most of the world) it is a fundamental right of bodily autonomy that any individual is not subjected to any forced medical situation in the support of another person's life, regardless of that person's age, gender or relationship with the other person. Even if we agreed on when personhood happens (I assume we disagree on it) at no point must one person give up their bodily rights for another. If you provide a special case for pregnancy then we are in a discussion of if your inconsistent belief structure is valid.
You're free to disagree with me, but everything I say on here is in good faith.
Yep, I agree.
I have no strong opinion on when personhood happens, I simply don't know.
A special case for what? You never expressed your disagreement with me.
If they were going to want the baby aborted, they shouldn't have had sex without a condom. You don't get to cum inside someone and then tell them what to do with it. Your jizz, your problem.
My parents were using a condom lmao. They're not perfect.
So, do you oppose abortion in general?
Obviously not. They're saying that the person that gets pregnant gets to decide whether or not they want to abort. It's not the decision of the sperm donor.
So, a mother has a choice to opt out of paying for a child if they can't afford it. But a father is given the same choice.
What a person does with their own body is entirely up to them. If you play your part in making that baby, and the person you came inside of plays their part too, you both have to pay for it. The sperm donor has one opportunity to opt out of being a parent, and that one opportunity is when they're having sex.
Yes, but when one person has the choice to not have a child, the other person can express their desire to not raise the child.
Why?
Why?
I only agreed to get my dick wet, your child support contract is invalid
“I DO NOT HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY WITH YOU” is about to be my go to line to get out of uncomfortable situations.
I still like, "YOU'RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR"
"THIS IS NOT MY BEAUTIFUL WIFE"
"THAT'S MY PURSE"
"I DON'T KNOW YOU"
"I think you will find that I do not have testicles."
"SHE BLUFFING! FINISH HER!"
A lovely chinese dinner, you say?
Succulent.
True. True.
I'll leave it up to own my shame.
No worries, but I just could not let it lie there! ;)
My God what have I done
I love this assertion by them. Because it's them saying they are an independent nation. But they are living on or within the US's declared borders and do not have a treaty as the American Indians do. Therefore they'd qualify as invaders or secessionist and the US military/immigration authorities should have jurisdiction to prosecute them. Afterall, this Sovereign Citizen is currently abroad in another country.
You have to say it ALL CAPS and in RED INK. LoL
Telling my boss this next time I'm voluntold to fix another failing project.
It's a pretty weird claim. They think they are their own country? Okay then... Do they realize that foreign countries can be taken to war against their wishes? I hope so, because that's probably going to happen to a lot of these people.
Bullshit. You know that mail is regarding the child support payments you're trying to weasel your way out of.
They are always asking how to "discharge" child support on the sovcit groups.
Is there no counter narrative of unsatisfied customers who chime in on every post to say "I tried this nonsense in family court and the judge took my kids gave my ex sole custody!"
No, those users are banned from the forums.
Hard to get Internet access in prison
One of those was a census. How tiny is their world if they don't know what a census is, and who sends them?
What is census? And who's sending it?
(asks non usa-an)
If your serious, it's something we do every few years to see how many people live in the US (like how many people live at your house), what race and gender you all are, income and that sort of thing. Basically it just gives the government a general idea of how many people live in the US, whether or not they are citizens and other social and economic shit. You fill them out anonymously and it only effects general population reports and stuff, it doesn't really effect you personally. It's pretty much only used for statistical purposes.
I think the MDHS one is Mississippi child support and this "sovereign citizen" is a deadbeat parent (surprise).
Thank You for explanation
Out of curiosity, does your country not have a census? I would have guessed every country does to have accurate information about their populace.
In my hellscape there are three sources of information about who lives in country
Participating in census is not mandatory here. If you make census mandatory it will probably be no better than existing beaurocracy and defeats purpose of getting on-ground truth.
Sorry, yes it has every 10 years, it's just english is not my native langusge and I never used(heard/saw) census so I was confused.
No that was digitalized like twenty years ago.
How? Is it China? I can't imagine real digitalized census without China level of surveillance.
I, uh, happen to be an expert in censuses.
The US of course tries to get everyone to respond, and sends people out to follow up with people who don't respond, such as this sovereign citizen in the original post. (The picture is of the 2020 Census envelope and as such is ~4 years old, by the way.)
Some European countries do an administrative records census, wherein they know who is in the country based on passport control, birth and death records, and so on. These censuses have the (admitted) flaw that someone who is in the country illegally would almost certainly not be counted, but on the flip side they are MUCH cheaper and faster than the US-style census. It's basically just running an SQL query on the database.
Other countries do a mix of the two. Even the US uses administrative records sometimes, if good data is available, and they can't get a response another way.
The US's situation is more complex than many countries, because driver's licenses (which serve as IDs) are issued by the individual states, not the federal government, and relatively few Americans ever get a passport. So, the closest things to a "master list" of people in the US that the government has are things like IRS and Social Security records - but those have flaws, too - for example, they don't count legal visitors.
I do not know what China et al do to complete their censuses.
Copy-pasta from my another comment:
In my hellscape there are three main sources of information about who lives in country
Participating in census is not mandatory here. If you make census mandatory it will probably be no better than existing beaurocracy and defeats purpose of getting on-ground truth.
I mean for govt to know how much each ring of hell is polulated and who in fact lives there instead of just registered needs either to knock on the door or spy on everyone. Not that I know what China does for their censuses.
The best thing about sovereign citizens is they're the only ones not in on the joke.
And they so persistently do not understand why their BS doesn't work.
Honestly their BS does kind of work they just seem unable to grasp that all the things they're saying also apply to everyone else. They don't have to aknowledge their electricity providers authority to charge them for electricity and the electric company doesn't have to keep supplying it. Its like some kind of extreme narcisicm.
'Cept in most locales you have to maintain your home's "habitability status" to not get it condemned, which requires having a functional electrical supply. And usually also working plumbing, heat, some manner of cooking apparatus, and a refrigerator.
"Muh Freedumb!" aside, these types of code requirements were as I understand it at least initially put into place to prevent slumlords from charging rent for an "apartment" that has access to none of the above.
Anyhow, if you really don't want to pay electric bills it's really not too tough to get yourself some solar panels or something. Somehow that never occurs to these people. There are counties out in the boondocks where you are permitted by law to live fully off the grid if you feel like it, so maybe they ought to move there and quit bothering everybody with their nonsense.
I think water and sewage are required but I don't think electricity is because a property is technically habitable without power. As long as there is not a vulnerable person confirmed living at the address. I mean it all seems a bit arbitrary, but apparently those are the rules.
I think it's mostly about making it unpleasant for squatters without violating their human rights too much. It straddles the line but not too badly.
This is another one of them there varies by state/county/city things. Where I live you must be connected to the grid. This causes problems for people who don't want to be connected to the grid, i.e. they have more than enough solar or windmill and battery capacity to not require it from a functional standpoint. But the county forbids you from not paying the local electricity monopoly their monthly bribe.
This is relatively recent -- as of the last 4 or 5 years or so. The power company now helpfully charges a "connection fee" if you use 0 kWh, which started happening exactly at the same time the law was passed to make it illegal not to be connected to them. I can't help but conclude that these two facts are not coincidental.
My previous area was like that, and that was why I didn't bother getting a battery system for my solar. And the connection fee went up, and up, and up.
i'M tRaVeLlInG!
The appeal is there. Imagine not having to pay any taxes or any of your bills. The idea practically sells itself to anyone who has no civics education.
> Refuses to open letter
> I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR INTENT
Ok, buddy.
If they don't open it they can't have read it and therefore aren't bound by what's in it. <- sovcit logic
I mean, that does work. Unless the letter is sent certified mail, it's not guaranteed to arrive. It could be lost on the way so they can't prove you got it.
Of course if you write all over it and post it online then you clearly got it.
By and large, I think most of these people are just trying to get out of legal and financial obligations. I bet if a government agency sent them a check, they'd fucking cash it. But it's when they're required to pay money or complete the littlest forms that they balk. They are just bad scammers.
They probably vote too.
"Not a US citizen"
Okay, so GTFO if you're renouncing your citizenship. And don't use any public roads or services as you're leaving...
Just deport them, and since they have nowhere to go, I guess that means throw them in the ocean?
Or make a treaty with an interested nation to deport them to.
I'm guessing Russia and North Korea would be interested.
No. Idiots are on the other side of bath tub formerly known as ocean.
To Mexico, it would be funny so see their faces. /s
doesn't US charge you for giving up your citizenship too?
Yup, its an old Civil War era law for folks who tried to avoid dying in the Civil War by moving to Canada. Reasoning was, if you wanted to draft dodge you could support the war financially instead. Then during the early 2000s as folks who graduated college at the wrong time and ended up more college debt than they can ever pay off started moving abroad to escape it, they increased the fee and took other steps to make renouncing more difficult since expats were renouncing their citizenship to stop owing taxes in the US
Short version: USA wanted slaves
I'm not a lawyer and I'm not from US, but I'm pretty sure this is not how it works.
Ah but it is. The US is, as far as I know, the only country who taxes its citizens who are living abroad. And yes, it is as stupid and shitty as it sounds.
No, I mean stopping owing part. If you did not pay taxes but should have while you were citizen, you are still owe taxes.
It seems US is most backwards country. Well, it could be most upside-down country, but this title is already claimed by Australia.
Perhaps I could have worded it better. I meant not accruing additional taxes to pay. But if you're already debt dodging by changing countries, realistically what is the federal government gonna do?
Yeah it's something like $2600
If these people are not citizens of any country, they’d have to be deported to International Waters for not holding a visa right?
Well the ocean doesn't discriminate.
Stateless people (not this whacko) are often stateless through no fault of their own. Shifting borders, oversight in government policy, or legal discrimination have deprived them of the rights and privileges they are entitled to.
Pretty much wherever they go, they have a hard time getting ID, enrolling in school, finding legal housing or work, etc.
About 100K Armenians were just made stateless and kicked out of Azerbaijan recently. You didn't hear about it because of Israel and no one cares about Azerbaijan.
These were people who predated the Soviet Union, became part of the Soviet Union, outlasted the Soviet Union, and then wanted their own country. They were living on land claimed by Azerbaijan but they understandably thought "That's a made up country. They just made it up. We can make up our own country."
Unfortunately, "living somewhere for a hundred years" doesn't count for much today. So Azeris kicked them out of their homes and they had to leave to Armenia. Azerbaijan is now eyeing Armenian territory and these people have to apply for Armenian citizenship, through no real fault of their own.
Just to to a fucking airport, god.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0362227/
Based on a true story for the most part. I honestly can't remember how much they changed. It's been a long time since I read about the real story.
Very changed. And, worse, whitewashed. The original man was Iranian. The was a French film made about the situation too. A white man played him in that movie as well. Plus, it was a comedy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri
Why do they always have the same handwriting?
It's the lead poisoning.
There's a certain level of brain malfunction necessary to think this shit will work, and one way that can manifest is poor coordination for fine movements like writing.
Actually a really valid point
Pills/ computer duster, I assume
Middle school dropouts
Were you taught handwriting in highschool?
Nope, I Do remember a few middle school dropouts though and how incredibly dumb they were. I assume they weren’t allowed to drop out in elementary. Idk, thirty years ago.
Handwriting doesn't really correlate with intelligence
Dropping out in middle school does
Idk about that, given I don't think in most of the US you can drop out until at least 16.
Like I said, 30 years ago. Not sure who or what it is you’re advocating for here
I think this person will find that they are very much a citizen of the United States of America.
I still think we should just take them at their word and deport them.
Have them go through customs every time they leave their property to get groceries. Get yourself a conscientious officer who makes sure he doesn't have enough hours in a day to fetch something he forgot on his first run. Btw, tough luck with your utilities, I assume it's quite a lot of paperwork for international piping and electrical connections, especially if your utilities company is motivated not losing 100$ a month.
To Somalia.
Hey Somalia's been doing better lately. Maybe Yemen?
Real "Virgin Sovereign Citizen" / "Chad Houthi Rebel" moment coming up.
That doesn’t solve the problem if they get in trouble somewhere else. Also they’d be bothering future Americans wherever we send them
Not if we deport them to, say, the moon.
That’s still America. Source: 🇱🇷 was there first
Oh yeah, the old star and stripes.
We could dump them all on the Principality of Sealand.
Send them into international waters
Antarctica, I guess?
What can anyone do there? Install penguins on computers?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_claims_in_Antarctica
Pretty sure the unclaimed chunk is big enough to hold most of them
Middle of the ocean where they belong
Doesn't matter. Whatever group it's cheapest to throw them in with.
Give em what they want and put em on a boat onto international waters and they can build waterworld, or not. Better than indulging their make-believe and causing everyone else a headache.
Only thing worse than citizenship is statelessness.
You think the government is fucking you over now? Wait till you're denied legal residency practically anywhere on earth and your very existence is considered a criminal trespass.
Stay in airport limbo forever
And you're not even Tom Hanks.
That motherfucker must feel so powerful writing that... stuff.
I mean the only other kick he's going to get is to the teeth by the feds, so I hope he's getting something out of it.
Is this the kind of people who post disclaimers in social media that "unauthorize" the company running said social media from using the "content" they post there?
Or add a cc license to their Lemmy posts
That shit made me cackle when I saw it
What's wrong with that?
CC BY-NC-ND 4.0
Yup
Should these “sovereign citizens” be arrested and put in illegal migrant camps the minute they set foot on public roads, or should we reserve that VIP treatment only for brown Spanish-speaking people?
Yes they should and Brown Spanish speakers should get to detain them.
...could they be driving tuk tuks?
Sovereign citizens are some of the stupidest dregs of society. It doesn’t even take proper legal training to realize how wrong and how stupid their statements are when they do this kind of garbage.
It requires such a weird pick and choose approach to the law to make these arguments and it just baffles me. Like who do they even expect to back them?
"Not a U.S. citizen"
Throw this ass clown out into international waters like they're DJ Jazzy Jeff overstaying his welcome
"All Rights Reserved"
But none of the responsibilities.
Also, "I'm only affected by international treaties because I'm a Sovereign Citizen" and "This correspondence is illegal duo to US law Title 18 1341&1342.”
The all rights reserved line confuses me the most here. Where and to what are they asserting copyright?
Are they claiming copyright on all that gibberish that they copied from a webpage somewhere or are they claiming that MDHS and the Census Bureau are violating copyright by printing their name and address on the letters?
Without a treaty with Mississippi (which I don’t think a state can enter into an international treaty to begin with) or the US Government, this chucklefuck can’t really assert that they want their copyright protected and enforced by the US when they are claiming that the US violated that copyright (still don’t know what is supposed to be copyrighted).
Another thing always frustrates me with this stuff is that anyone who has watched the news in the past 40 years should be well aware that the US and plenty of other countries don’t really give a shit about sovereignty unless there’s a treaty, a bunch of nuclear weapons, a big ass military, or a powerful economy protecting it.
They're trying to claim copyright for what they wrote on the letter, so it can't be shown to any third party without their permission.
That way it's impossible to prove in court that they received the notice, cause the judge isn't allowed to see it.
AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED AM I BEING DETAINED OR AM I FREE TO GO WHY AM I BEING DETAINED
I am assuming you posted this in jest, so forgive me if I've missed the bus, but these are actually very important things to ask for everyone when approached by LE. Charges get dismissed when they answer them wrong or inaccurately. I many cases, they do not have the right to withhold an articulable suspicion, so getting their lack of a response is extremely important, and these two questions are how you get that.
That said, people can also use them to be obnoxious, so I also assume that might have been the joke here. Sorry again. I'm very dense.
Several years ago I was unlawfully arrested for refusing to sign a medical release. I fought the charge and had it dropped, but the experience was extremely upsetting.
In the US, law enforcement can and will:
Attempt to coerce you into incriminating yourself. Attempt to trick you into consenting to a search of your property. Attempt to stop you for long enough to find evidence or suspicion of a crime, or provoke you into commiting one.
Everyone should know how to exercise their rights to politely but firmly deal with this behavior.
100%
That's rough, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I went through a situation where the cop made threats, harassed me at work, and followed me around for a week because I had witnessed him planting evidence and discretely told him in case he didn't realize what he was doing was a crime. I honestly thought he would appreciate the discretion or at the very least inform me of why I was wrong. Nope, he went irrational. So I learned my rights and admittedly was an obnoxious dick the first opportunity I had to exercise them. My response wasn't far off from this thread's top comment. It didn't get me arrested but the guy was furious and made every effort to fuck me over. Luckily he was incompetent and the judge dismissed the docket then chewed him out for wasting the courts time. After that, I've remained courteous and civil with cops, but they only get what I am legally required to say, and not another word.
ACAB
Jesus. Good on that judge though.
Yeah, it could have been worse. I was very fortunate.
You’re free to go.
Lol, subtlety is the true soul of wit.
Nope. You nailed it. I actually ask these questions.
Lol, thanks, my apologies if my responses was superfluous.
Sovereign citizens are a hilarious little delight to break up the drudge that these times bring. There's always a balance.
These people are called Cookers where I'm from, because their brain is cooked.
Mate
I bet their car is a fucking sight.
It's their vanifesto
I learned a new word today!
Every day's a school day!
One of my favorite youtubers munecat made a great video on Sovereign Citizens and how the brain rot is going international
Lots of countries have a variant of these crazies. e.g. Freemen of the Land in the UK, Ireland & commonwealth, Reichsburger in Germany. It all boils down to the same thing - very, very stupid people think they can steal property, dodge taxes or get out of legal trouble with pseudo legal incantations based on misinterpretation of obscure treaties or defunct laws. And naturally what happens is they miraculously transform minor infractions into massive fines and actual prison time. Very, very stupid people and occasionally very dangerous.
‘Reichsburger’ sounds like a fast food item
“Hello let me get one Reichsburger with cheese” “Do you want fries with that?”
It's really successful psy op propaganda. Divide and conquer. Make people fight against their own country from within, if you're lucky you won't have to fire a single bullet, just fan the flames until the country burns itself to the ground.
You know who.
It's a great video by an awesome channel
My dude, the name of the organization and the stated intent of the letter is literally in the envelop you're writing on top of.
This very much walks the line between "sovereign citizen lunatic" and "needs to be committed to a mental institution." Although to be fair, it's a pretty blurry line.
What it's not completely sane to send mail back to its source covered in insane statements?
Title 18 1341 covers fraud by US mail. I kind of doubt that official government agencies, with charters and legal authorities for operation, are committing mail fraud on the regular and that sovereign citizens are the only ones smart enough to peel back the veil.
Maybe the rest of us sheeple need to wake up.
I wonder what kind of protections and rights that sovereign citizens actually have. Non-US citizen resident aliens and tourists with Visas all enjoy some rights. Native peoples with tribal sponsorship have another set of rights. Sovereign citizens fall into none of those buckets as they reject the notion of obtaining permission to enter and reside in-country and they also apparently renounce citizenship if they had it in the first place. Does this mean that they fall into the illegal alien classification? As people with no country, where would they even be deported to?
I think that is a great summary of their beliefs.
Sovcits don’t have the right to renounce their nationality as far as the USA government is concerned.
There is an official process to remove USA citizenship/nationality, it costs money and has to be done at an embassy. See here:
travel.gov faq
Importantly:
“The U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Supreme Court have concluded that the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality […] does not exist where a renunciant claims a right to continue to reside in the United States, unless the renunciant demonstrates that residence will be as an alien documented properly under U.S. law.”
Since sovcits don’t have a second nationality, they can’t live here legally as an alien. So basically, their request to renounce their nationality would be rejected. They still owe taxes and child support, so sad for them. They still may be able to reject their citizenship (right to passports, right to vote) but not their nationality and couldn’t be deported. I’m not a lawyer, I mean, just thought it was interesting. I imagine children who’s parents have not gotten them a birth certificate would have similar (but fixable) legal problems.
Anyway, stateless people do actually exist in the world, they are refugees and face hardship. The UN considers it a human rights problem.
I found this article interesting (it is about stateless refugees trapped in the USA, and this law college would like to advocate for them):
U Chicago article
Not sure where they will be sent, but pretty certain that the men who "deport" them will be wearing white coats.
They talk often about having a local state assembly, which seems to be their local collective of bonkers sovcits.
To chucklefuck island, of course…
I can't believe we forgot to sign a treaty with this fellow.
Hey, Blinken!!
Did you just say "Abe Lincoln"?
I was about to say 'these people vote' but....do they?
Heck no, voting would create enjoinder merging the real person with the legal person and they'd have to write their name in all capital letters from then on and put a gold fringe on all their flags
Why did you just respond to me? I do not understand your intent.
I DO NOT HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY WITH YOU
Why is this on my screen.
WHO ARE YOU
I DO NOT CONSENT TO SEEING YOU ON MY SMARTPHONE GET OUT GET OUT
I AM SOVEREIGN
I don't know how to tell you this, but you're a bit early. We haven't even discovered the mass effect yet.
You exist because we allow it!
Remember in Contact when she was in the ship and the like....ghost face kept coming off of her face and saying other stuff? Yeah. That's what would happen.
Removing themselves from the political process is the last smart thing they do
This is like a shittier unhinged version of Liam Neeson's phone call in Taken
They’ve used all the magical incantations they could find on social media while doing “research.”
They have the finest education Google University offers. Given the quality of Google's search results is rapidly circling the drain, this is truer than ever.
Meanwhile me, "No one by that name has lived here since at least X" or "No such business at this address, the LLC was dissolved in 2017". I get a lot of credit card offers for previous owners and businesses they sat up. Sometimes for businesses that haven't existed in years.
I throw that stuff straight in the recycle bin. If the previous owner cant be arsed to change the mailing address of their rental LLCs, I can't be arsed to do it either.
My father gets credit card offers to this very day addressed to my cat, because he used its name to sign up for a duplicate free trial for one of those CD-of-the-month clubs in the '90's. That cat died of old age two decades ago, but somehow gets "preapproved" credit card offers -- plus a ton of other ridiculous junk mail.
What was your cat's name? Please tell me it's nothing a sane human would name their actual child. I'm picturing credit offers addressed to "Mister Snifferbootles Smith"
Oh damn
I only do it in hopes that it might remove it from the list or something.
For those curious...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1341
I don't even understand what they are citing.
The sov cit folks think that laws are magic words, and if you recite them in the right order you can do anything you want.
So like... delusional Harry Potter fans.
Harry brandishes his wand in the familiar circular pattern and shouts: "HABEAS CORPUS". He can feel the spell take effect. The judge's eyes glaze over, and she releases Harry's client due to lack of sufficient evidence to hold them.
https://bloggingwv.com/replacing-wand-with-wang-in-a-harry-potter-book/
To be fair to them, this IS effectively how law is supposed to work. Watch "Breaking the Spell" . It's a great film.
This section contemplates mail fraud and the penalties incurred for committing said fraud.
I find it incredibly entertaining that, although these laws magically do not apply to them, these people invoke them to attempt to intimidate government officials.
That's a lot of magik incantations right there or plain old ignorant wishful thinking - I'm not sure which.
I did know a guy that tried to be a sovereign citizen. He was never the brightest wick in the candelabra and was also a huge conspiracy nut and misinformed health nut ever. Overall, he was pretty harmless and never caused anyone any problems. Just a really strange guy.
All rights reserved, "without prejudice".
Are you sure about that, buddy?
"I'm a sovereign citizen your laws don't apply to me, except when they pertain to rights that I like"
I wouldn't mind the movement too much if they actually practiced what they preached and went and lived on some large ranch somewhere in the middle of nowhere and grew all their own food and never left.
They pretend that it's like going back to basics hunter gatherer lifestyle, but really it's just about not paying taxes.
I think it's the general "mom said you can't go over this line, what're you gonna do, what're you gonna do, what're you gonna do, what're you gonna do".
On principle they are right, in general they're just intolerable little brothers.
In case you've never heard of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement
I've even seen videos on YouTube, but my brain genuinely won't process that they're for real.
Like even clicking into the comments my thought was: really does anyone really think this. Idk
MS resident
This is 1000% accurate
I simply love the title of this post.
"visual storyteller" 😂
It's a shame because I agree with them in principle (I don't feel like a UK citizen, I feel like a human) but they seem to lack awareness of reality. Yes, the government is overbearing and an unjustified power in your life, no that doesn't mean you can pretend they don't exist and not face consequences. I wish it were that easy
I too find laughing at people with serious mental illness so wholesome /s
Not everything is mental illness, some people are just dumb and smug about it.
This is though.
Impressive that you've diagnosed that condition from that image.
Thanks :)