Dave Chappelle fills Netflix special with jokes about trans and disabled people
Dave Chappelle has released a new Netflix special, The Dreamer, which is full of jokes about the trans community and disabled people.
“I love punching down!” he tells the audience, in a one-hour show that landed on the streaming service today (31 December).
It’s his seventh special for Netflix and comes two years after his last one, the highly controversial release The Closer.
That programme was criticised for its relentless jokes about the trans community, and Chappelle revisits the topic in his new show.
He tells jokes about trans women in prison, and about trans people “pretending” to be somebody they are not.
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/dave-chappelle-netflix-trans-disabled-b2471534.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world396
Comments491
It's amazing how many snowflake comedians start crying about being cancelled and then go on to have numerous netflix specials about it. Almost like they were never actually cancelled in the first place but they learnt that if they said they were enough times, the terminally dim people who enjoy their material will pay money to see their bully fantasies played out on stage by an old rich guy.
'cancelled' is now simply "people were mean to me on shitter". Their right to express vile horseshit is obviously intact.
Same as it ever was. They always roll out these new words to convey their shock and disgust at the fact that they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
This is as relevant as ever:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHqma3rx-xI&t=160s
(James Acaster)
As seen in these very comments 😂
"Oh sure we can't joke on trans people but you get to swing at Dave Chappelle!?"
Love this bit and will upvote it every time.
This is a good point. These jokes aren't just bad, they're boring. Why not just tell jokes about airline food?
In one of Dave’s early Netflix specials he talks about Bill Cosby and how complicated his crimes were for a black standup who was both inspired and influenced by Cosby as regardless of how shitty he is as a person is a giant of that medium. I sort of feel that way about Dave now, his show and early standup sets were so fundamental to how my sense of humor formed that I can’t completely divorce myself from them, but who he’s become is shameful and i can’t ride with him anymore.
Like fuck him for being so shitty and bigoted in general, but an extra fuck him for letting down the people he inspired and influenced. He’s become the very thing he should have destroyed
I am so sick of his comedy of grievance. Every act he does over the past few years is about how unfair the world is to him and how people don't acknowledge how great he is.
He's riding out the glory of an okay sketch show that he made two seasons and then torpedoed 20 years ago.
Yeah, I’m reminded of Jerry Seinfeld. Some comedians are great for life, most have a time and a place and excel then and there. I’m the 90s Seinfeld was bigger than big, in the 10s he was telling college campuses they’re too pc for not laughing at jokes about trans people. In the 00s Chappelle left on a high note and was a popular icon of comedy who quit too soon. In the 20s he was a raging bigot who should’ve stayed quit. Meanwhile Larry David is still making tv and fairly popular, but that’s because he mostly sticks to punching himself in the face.
Chappelle has said that Key and Peele were just doing "his show." But look at how Jordan Peele has reinvented himself as one of the iconic horror film directors of our generation (and maybe all time?). He wouldn't be out of place in a list alongside Alfred Hitchcock, Eli Roth, M. Night Shyamalan, Clive Barker, or George A. Romero.
Also, like so? People wanted more and you quit so others said they could do something similar. And as you said, Peele is doing stuff nobody dared do before in a different genre now.
I think at the root of his problem Chappelle seems to think that he’s the greatest and people just refuse to see it. He seems to lack the humility that is needed for a comedian to stay relatable
Gonna take friendly umbrage with you putting Shyamalan on that list but not mentioning John Carpenter or Wes Craven :)
Fair!
I take umbrage with Eli Roth being on that list at all...
I give him slight props for 1 decent movie but yeah I know what you mean.
You could also absolutely argue that what Key and Peele were doing was continuing on with a successful team-up that started on MadTV. If SNL got cancelled and Keenan Thompson got his own sketch show a couple of years later... I mean, that would make sense, wouldn't it? People find him likable and he has sketch comedy writing and performing experience.
Meanwhile Chappelle made some edgelords all defensive. Samesies!
I mean I'm happy that Peele has found success, but this is not accurate in any way.
He has one okay movie, and none of his movies can really be considered horror.
I've got a love-hate thing with his writing. David is a master of unconventional suicide by words. He's very funny but so good at causing intentional cringe that I suspect that his humor could be weaponized in the event of another world war.
Full agree. I think Jason Alexander did an amazing job of playing him in a way that didn’t hurt as bad to watch as when David plays himself. I tried curb your enthusiasm and it was funny but I just couldn’t watch more than one episode the cringe was so intense.
Seinfeld is a groomer
I remember in "The Closer" he said "now Key & Peele are on Comedy Central, doing my show."
Like dude, you did not invent the sketch comedy show. SNL had been going on for decades before he even thought of doing his own spin on it. I used to like his comedy, but not so much after that special, and definitely not after this.
I grew up with (and loved) the Chappelle Show but Key & Peele is sooo much better. I rewatched some of his show a few years ago and most of the skits don't hold up well at all. It's mostly just black stereotype caricatures that are only "not racist" because a black guy wrote them
The fucked part is one of the reasons he stopped doing Chapelle Show was (according to him sometimes) because he recognized a good chunk of his audience was laughing at the black stereotype shit instead of with him about how ridiculous it was. And now he's cashing in on punching down at other groups and cares not a bit about it.
Yeah. I like some edgy humor but the show was an invitation for racists to be more public with their opinions...which they did
Yeah, seems Dave’s always had a problem with misreading the room. Still does, just is bitter about it now
And misogyny. I can’t remember a woman on that show that wasn’t eye candy or the butt of a joke.
It was a joke you absolute donkey.
Jokes are meant to be funny and that is just whinging on his part, you bloody walnut.
Did the live audience laugh?
Big-name comedy show audiences are moronic fanboys who will laugh at anything.
Dude is a multi millionaire in his 50s who does nothing but bitch about how other rich people "stole" his money. Sooooo relatable Dave, wow!
I mean, yeah, he's a piece of shit, and yeah he's still riding on that old fame, but come on. That was a great sketch show, not merely an ok one. The fact that he has turned into Clayton Bigsby should not distract from the fact that the first episode of his show featured a faux documentary about a black white supremacist. That was some amazing television. I'm all for bashing Dave for the many, many shitty things he's said and done in the past few years, but let's not rewrite history here.
It's far from the worst, but great? I guess there's no accounting for taste. I'd prefer Mr Show, Monty Python, In Living Color, Key & Peele, Portlandia... does Robot Chicken count?
What. The. Fuck.
I've never been the biggest Chappelle fan, but years ago, before he started going down this path, I had basic respect for him as a comedian. Now he's actually promoting punching down? And he didn't feel like he was punching down enough with trans people, so he had to be an ableist as well as a transphobe?
And Netflix would not have put this on their site sight unseen, so they 100% knew that this was a celebration of attacking vulnerable people.
Christ, even when I was in high school I knew that the guy who pushed the kid in the wheelchair over onto their side was a shithead and so did almost everyone else. So basically Chapelle wants his fan base to be the little weasel kid who stands behind the bully with a grin on his face because someone else is getting it when it could have been them.
I wonder if anyone will come in here and defend him with some mumbo jumbo about free speech?
Here he is introducing (and inadvertently humiliating) his friend Elon, who he shares a shocking amount of awful views with:
https://youtu.be/BdBga225HBk
Chappelle still tries to act like he's one of the disenfranchised black people, while living in a mansion and hanging out with Elon Musk.
Money literally rotts the brain. Study after study shows wealthy people become more sociopathic as they accumulate more wealth and power. We shouldn't cap wealth just because it's morally right, it also prevents those in power from becoming all consuming sociopaths.
I saw that when the news broke and it was glorious. Sadly, it taught Elon absolutely nothing.
and chris rock! i was just thinking how these 2 used to be very funny, if not somewhat irreverent... i get it. but now theyre both on this conservative soap box its so weird!
theyve become the anti-carlin!
Carlin is Carlin. Everybody else only tries to approach him or has given up on the idea of doing it. The man had a 50+ year career with a consistent upwards trend. In 4 years we will be at the 20th anniversary of his death. And the man is still relevant and funny to this day.
Chappelle, Seinfeld, Allen, etc. All just hacks who got lucky. Would anyone even know who Seinfeld was without Larry David? That man is another gem for sure.
I can't even watch or recommend others to watch half baked any more between Chappelle and Bruer.
I haven’t heard about Rock. That’s disappointing. It’s a common thing with comedians these days to get upset if their comedy either goes to far or just isn’t funny and blame it on people being too sensitive. It feels like that’s been pushing some of them to the right even though that’s not really the issue they are being confronted with.
At least Chris just told rich people jokes about his kids in college. Wasn’t relatable, but it felt honest.
Wait, Chris Rock too!? WTH!!??
nothing quite as egregious as chappelle, but his recent special was completely class tone-deaf, and boring. ' i dont enjoy politically correct terminology', 'i am rich, entitled human', 'will smith sucks' were the main tones i remember from watching his last special.. that and thinking, 'when did chris rock get boring'?
For me, the dividing line when he became unfunny was when he started being in every Sandler movie. It was somewhere along the way that all of those comedians in those movies just lost it.
A lot of transphobes, white-supremacists, and similar ideologues would support eugenics for disabled people so that isn't a far off description. Whether comedians like him realize it or not, they are normalizing social darwinism essentially.
Of course they will.
At this point I feel like Netflix is encouraging this kind of content.
Netflix is a bunch of suits. In their perfect world they can cater different content to trans people and to transphobic people at the same time, in order to make maximum money.
And on top of that they know that outrage fuels views. They keep making inflammatory content that will outrage one side and get the other to spite-view it. Of course inflammatory content to left wingers tends to be bigotted and hateful, while inflammatory to right wingers tends to just be anything not overwhelmingly white, straight, and patriarchal.
I read a view that not punching down is offensive and not right.
See it's based on everyone being equal and there is nothing wrong with being disabled (the person mentioning this view was disabled). So if you rip on all your friends for whatever, but then don't rip on your disabled friend for being disabled then that is treating them like that can't handle it or that they aren't equal.
Honestly it's comedy, some isn't but most is offensive. Comedy doesn't have to be for everyone but I don't think it should be stopped just because someone doesn't like it. The whole punching up, punching down thing is just weird. It's a self imposed rule people treat like law.
"Everyone is equal, so it's offensive to punch up at a bully without also punching down at their victim" ...is a weird take.
I dunno, there's a couple problems there. You can still punch up or punch down while recognizing that everyone's equal, because we can recognize that status doesn't have to really do with whether or not someone's equal. i.e. someone can be lower or higher status, monetarily, socially, while still being of equal worth, in terms of like, their value as a human. So you can still "punch up" or "punch down", because there's still problems in society, we don't live in a kind of totally equal utopia, or what have you, and to not recognize that and say that we do, and then use that as a justification to be able to punch down, you know, that would be bad.
Oftentimes, the reason people find ire with "punching down", is that it makes fun of people from the perspective of their lack of status and their lack of worth as a human. It's fine to make fun of disabled people, in general, but it's not really funny to make fun of someone who's in a wheelchair, for the fact they're in a wheelchair, most especially if you're not in a wheelchair, because that's punching down. You also see this thing where people who occupy minority positions, like being in a wheelchair, will try to ingratiate themselves to the majority, sometimes with some degree of success, by basically punching themselves in the face socially. "Oh, I'm in a wheelchair, isn't that so funny guys?", but unironically, which negatively impacts, in this example, the disabled, especially as it is used as evidence for being like "hey disabled people are okay with it" or "hey this other guy's okay with it, so if you complain, you're just lame and don't have a legitimate grievance". Now it's their "choice" to punch themselves, but we can also recognize it's arising from their need to try and improve their situation, and the extenuating circumstances, and so it's kind of not that funny in the broader picture, and we also try not to blame them for it on the basis that it's as a result of their circumstance.
You would probably get better laughs and better comedy out of it anyways, if you tried to point out the kind of existential insanity of being someone in a wheelchair, and moving through the modern world, which has not been crafted for you. People in wheelchairs have difficulty using the restroom, for example, because restrooms aren't really laid out for them, so you could maybe come at it from the angle of "why do we still have urinals", or "what the fuck is up with asian squat toilets", or something to that effect. Maybe make fun of everyone wanting you to cut off your legs, and give you robot legs, when really all you wanted was to have a wheelchair that lets you piss and shit, and like, an elevator that isn't broken. The reason chapelle's modern shit isn't that funny, imo, is because he doesn't understand the perspective of trans people enough to make effective jokes out of it. Which, to be fair, is pretty hard to do, if you're not trans. Which is sort of why most comedians don't try it, the same way most white comedians don't try to do racial comedy about black people.
That's not all to overcorrect and say that all his shit in "the closer" was bad, because it wasn't, and he had a handful of good points, but the problem is going to kind of arise when those good points also come with a handful of pretty bad points and pretty bad jokes. Just like his actual show. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that a good amount of dave chappelle's popularity comes from the double tradeoff of it being extremely popular in the 2000's to kind of be more comfortable with being "edgy" and making fun of black people, on the basis that they're equal, and "I'm not a racist, so it's okay" type shit. People laughing at him, rather than with him, but on the basis that we live in a harmonious post-racial society, barring all of the "weird racists". He even ended up saying as much, as to why he wanted to quit his own show, that he felt people were laughing more at him. The double tradeoff I'm talking about, there, is that he was using the same platform, out the other side of his mouth, to make funny and insightful comedy that pushed the buck. He could attract white people looking to laugh at the minstrel and misogyny, but then turn around and give some good shit on top of it. Even just to portray the reality that black people were still oppressed. Is that tradeoff worth it? It maybe is, if you're able to give good enough insight to kind of balance the rest out, but if the insight is lacking, if the perspective is lacking, then obviously people are gonna be more likely to get very frustrated with it. That's all me talking out my ass, though.
If you think comedy largely has to be offensive and that ribbing your friends is the same as somebody going on TV and saying the same thing, you're missing out on a lot of good comedy. There's so much comedy that doesn't just come down to "saying something offensive for the shock factor."
This comes off like "I can say the N word because I have a black friend and he finds it funny when I say it." Ribbing your friends has the implicit understanding between you and them that it's not ill intentioned or mean-spirited. You could make a joke about your friend's wheelchair, but you wouldn't walk up to a random person on the street in a wheelchair and make fun of them for it. You can make a racist joke with your friends because everybody there knows you're not being serious and you're probably making fun of the people who would actually make a joke like that, but if you go up in front of a bunch of strangers and do the same joke, they don't know that you're not being serious about it. It just sounds like you're being racist.
Punching up and punching down are very specific things, not just joking about a minority group or not; and they're not laws or rules, they're labels for a concept. Calling something a square isn't some self imposed rule - it's just the label for a rectangle that has 4 sides of identical length.
Punching down is specifically when you make jokes at the expense of a minority, rather than making jokes about a minority. It's the comedy equivalent of kicking a kid in the balls because your friends think it's funny. You can make trans jokes without it being yet another "I saw a chick with a dick and that's gross and I vomited" kind of joke. Punching down would be going on TV and making jokes about how black people aren't as intelligent as white people and that's why they're poor and do drugs and end up in prison. Not punching down would be making a joke about how all day people kept coming up to you and telling you how proud of you they are for being brave enough to be yourself and wishing you well in your transition...but you're not trans, you just forgot to put on makeup that day.
Punching up is when a joke is a criticism of a common minority experience at the expense of the people who perpetrate that experience. Like making a joke about how you know that a new black guy moved into town because suddenly everybody is calling you by his name; and when you finally meet the guy, it's like you're already best friends because you already know everything about each other. And then a random black guy you don't recognize shows up drunk in front of your house so you bring him over to your friend's house because you assume he's a friend of theirs - but they had brought him over to your house first because they assumed he was your friend.
Basically, if you have to be an asshole to be funny, then the only people who are gonna laugh are other assholes.
Comedy is funny. That's what it is.
It doesn't have to be offensive. But it can be offensive.
It's just a joke and being overly sensitive about something that isn't true can mean you miss a lot of good quality humour because you find it more important to be offended than to laugh.
It can be offensive, and offensive comedy can be absolutely hilarious. But, it's often rather lazy comedy and "it's just a joke" is also used by bigots to hide from the consequences of their awful opinions in the same way that bullies do after they get caught. It's important to know the difference between somebody making a joke and somebody telling you what they really think but are too afraid to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHqma3rx-xI
I said it in his last special, a comedian doesn't punch down. Apparently he heard this criticism from others and decided to double down. He's truly become a piece of shit of a guy and I wouldn't be surprised if he's jumped on the Maga train.
"Punching down" also indicates that he thinks he's somehow on a different level from them. So, it should mean, for example, that he's making fun of comedians who are less successful than him. Or maybe it means he's making fun of people who have less money than him.
But, there's likely a trans person out there who has more money than him, so what does he actually mean? He's the one quoted in this special as saying "I love punching down!" Those are his words that he chose. Is he saying that he's inherently better than a trans person or a disabled person?
It used to be popular for white people to think they were inherently better than black people. Talk about a lack of perspective.
Harshly criticizing a powerful group or system (punching up) is considered fair social critique. Harshly criticizing a group or system that is already vulnerable (punching down) is just bullying. It's not about feeling superior in this context, it's just about someone with a huge platform using it to put down people who already have a harder life than they need to.
So.. MAGA then? Sounds like maga.
Pretty sure the whole punching down thing comes from a story he told in one of these netflix specials where a trans woman in a bar told him she likes his comedy but that he needs to stop punching down against her people. He got all indignant about it and tried explaining that it's not punching down because he's black. His logic being that black people are so far down the totem pole it's impossible for any one of them to "punch down" against a different marginalized group.
Him using the phrase now comes across more to me as him reveling in the position that he's, in his mind, been mischaracterized into by the trans community. And less so him actually believing he's better than anyone.
Still not at all a good look. And he's definitely an asshole. The fact that he's still fixated on this one perceived slight that happened to him several years ago should tell you all you need to know about him. My dude has produced multiple Netflix comedy specials focused on getting back at a community he feels wronged by because a woman said something to him once in a bar that he didn't like.
It also ignores the existence of black trans people.
I interpret it as just being a less oppressed class laughing at a more oppressed class. But it does raise a good point.
Here’s well known social media karma harvester… George Carlin explaining the concept in… 1990
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsTheMicStillOn/comments/nx3gcz/george_carlin_speaks_on_punching_down_120/
"talk about lack of perspective"
Just a heads up, punching down is a term used in the comedy world. It's more like, telling a dumb joke that's easy. It's an easy win that most people will laugh at, rather than creating humor using actual skill.
Just a heads up, 'punching down' means 'To attack or criticize someone in a less powerful position'. That's the definition. It's not limited to the comedy world.
No it's not limited to it, but Chappelle is deeply part of the comedy world. That's where he would be using the term from.
and yet in comedy it still refers to attacking people in a less powerful position. It has nothing to do with jokes being easy or dumb.
I misread somehow, you're absolutely right.
Maybe the other person is thinking of low hanging fruit.
How can someone be so confident and yet so wrong? 😂
OR, ya'll are missing the joke entirely, in that he doesn't think he's 'punching down'... nore is he making fun of who you think he is.
In fact, the joke is at the expense of people like those in this thread who are getting bent out of shape taking words out of context. It was tailor made to upset YOU, specifically. YOU, and your unnecessary outrage, are the butt of the joke. He's mocking those who go overboard with the virtue signaling, and you all here are taking the bait hook, line & sinker.
There is a problem right now with self elected 'thought police' trying to remove all discourse, and that is VERY unhealthy for a liberal society. Totalitarianism is not healthy, no matter what your motivation is. Sacred cows are ALWAYS something to be targeted by comedy & satire, and the left wing totalitarianist word/thought police are very much a valid target, every bit as much as the MAGA idiots. For society as a whole, they are equally as dangerous, the end goal is the same but with different underlying motivations.
That being said, the special was lackluster. It felt like he was contractually obligated to give Netflix another special by the end of 2023 but didn't have enough material yet & even what he had wasn't very polished.
You've set off my 1984 alarm: Never use the term, "thought police" in reference to private individuals making decisions about others actions. If you actually read 1984 (it's a short book and easy to find online, go read it) the Thought Police were part of the government. As in, policing people's thoughts was a function of the government (in order to maintain the status quo, avoiding change aka extreme conservativism).
Here, you're referring to a collection of people that have decided--on their own--to boycott a comedian because they don't like where he stands on certain topics. That's not Thought Police! Call them snowflakes or "too sensitive" or "hysterical" or some other bullshit (don't care, really) but please for the love of Orwell stop using that term to refer to non-governmental entities or the actions of people that aren't part of any authority.
When the government starts cracking down on people's speech then by all means refer to this action as, "Thought Police".
Don't believe they aren't aware that they're hypocritical.
I have heard the 1982 argument numerous times from people that support banning books.
These strategies have been used for ages
~Jean-Paul Sartre
This represents a common issue in the discourse. Conservatives tend to use a group of people to try and score points against leftists, liberals people NOT a part of the minority while using the minority as nothing more than a weapon. It doesn't matter how much we get banged up. In this case it's cis people using the existence and expressed needs of trans people to try and discredit other cis people while misrepresenting the needs and causes of trans people. We are not bullets to be fired at our own defenders.
You think no trans people are made to feel alienated by this? That in the shockwave following another bombing run we don't get to hear variations of this rhetoric in our workplaces and get to feel like we need to chose between our mental health and the precarity of keeping food on the table? That people won't feel empowered to come at us with new fodder to make us to routinely have to defend ourselves against whatever transphobic nonsense is getting panned as a "dig against the libs"? We fight for rights to actually live in our bodies with a mental load out that is hard for cis people to comprehend at a basic level and that gets represented as high humor by someone who very obviously hasn't got a clue during a time when we are under political fire and human rights campaigns have labelled the USA actively hostile to trans people. It's beyond poor taste, it's preaching to the ignorance and intolerance of people directly.
bigotry isn’t “intelligent discourse”, and calling out bigots for their bigotry isn’t “totalitarianism."
I will ask again- Is Dave Chapelle entitled to a Netflix Special?
Netflix is entitled to a Dave Chapelle special. Contracts were signed. We could be getting a Kanye moment, though.
That's a separate issue. That's a contractual issue. We're talking in terms of speech here. Because this whole 'thought police' thing sure makes it sound like his rights are somehow being violated if he doesn't have a Netflix special.
There is definitely trans friendly humour that can see us be the willing butt of the joke... But representing us as "just pretending" or appealing to the squeamishness of cis people about our potential medical choices or making open commentary on our genetalia or coping strategies isn't exactly humour we can laugh along with when we face that shit from people regularly and have to either pretend it doesn't bother us or ask people to drop it just to move on with our day.
For you it's a novelty, for us it's fucking routine annoyance. People want to confront us to have these conversations about how we're weird or wrong or liars with us over and over again and repeat like mindless parrots idiotic shit people believe about us that is patently false and then have the gall to wonder why we dislike them for it.
Chappelle wants to make believe he's saying the taboo things that people are forcibly restrained from saying to our faces... But we hear this shit from family members and friends we have to let go of and coworkers and random idiots who corner us in public. But when we ask people to please for the love of god just STOP they get offended and wheel out the "you can't tell me what to do!" and the "you're so fragile! "
We aren't fragile, we're just tired of your stale bullshit.
When I tell someone to shut the fuck up I'm merely expressing my own right to free speech, I'm not taking away someone else's right to speak! How is that "thought police"? They are still free to ignore me, they just have to deal with the fact that I disprove.
And that's what babies like this are really mad about. Baby can't stand the thought that people don't like him!
I'm also free to not watch his special, not give him money, and tell other people to do the same. And baby doesn't like that!
Is Dave Chapelle entitled to a Netflix special? Does he have a right to a Netflix special? Is not letting him have a Netflix special taking away his basic free speech rights?
If so, I want my Netflix special too.
Man, don't waste your time and energy.
Most of these commenters just want to be angry.
I agree with your comment 100%.
Wow, it usually takes some knowledge about a subject to come to a conclusion like that.
But you came to that conclusion without any knowledge at all.
Just like most of these comments about Dave Chappelle's latest standup.
Pretty on brand of you to form an ignorant and severely judgemental conclusion based on little to no information at all.
You sound like an American Republican.
You can't even make a real argument, and just use sarcasm and personal attacks.
Be angry at me all you want.
But next time you see such an obviously baiting headline, like this "article"... ask yourself if it's a real article or just clickbait that wants to trick you into scrolling through 40 ads to read something that doesn't expand on the headline AT ALL.
And then wonder if there is a lot of "news" floating out there meant to make you angry just so you drive traffic to the source.
If you question this kind of nonsense even once, moving forward, then these last 10 minutes was well worth the effort.
And here you are baiting, strawman after strawman
I'll take comments that show the individual has no idea what they are talking about, for $500, Alex.
it's essential to consider the broader context of oppression when discussing the dynamics of 'punching up' or 'punching down' in comedy. historically, black people have faced systemic oppression, which continues to impact their lives in various ways. this systemic oppression isn't just about individual experiences of racism but also about the overarching power structures that disproportionately affect black communities.
when a black comedian addresses topics related to race, they are often speaking from a place of personal and collective experience with these systemic issues. their humor might be a way to cope with or highlight the absurdities and injustices of these systems. therefore, even when their jokes might seem to target groups traditionally seen as more powerful, it's not the same as 'punching down.' 'punching down' implies attacking those who are less powerful or oppressed, and given the historical and ongoing context of racial oppression, a black comedian making jokes about race or related societal structures isn't an act of punching down but rather a form of social commentary or critique.
That doesn’t work against groups that are even further behind in their quest for civil rights. Trans people are still fighting to use bathrooms or participate in sports the Black people fought for 60-70 years ago.
the comparison between the struggles of black individuals and transgender individuals is valid, yet it's important to understand each community's unique challenges. while both groups share a common goal of equality and fair treatment, they face distinct battles rooted in different forms of discrimination.
black people have historically dealt with segregation, police brutality, voter suppression, housing disparities, and many other racially motivated issues. they've made significant progress in terms of civil rights over the past few decades, thanks to the efforts of activists, organizations, and legislation. however, there's no denying that these issues persist, requiring continued work towards eradication.
transgender individuals, on the other hand, primarily struggle with gender identity and expression. they fight against misconceptions, prejudice, and bias, which often manifests as restricted access to facilities, employment, healthcare, etc. trans people also experience higher rates of violence compared to the general population, which illustrates the severity of their plight.
while both groups have experienced similar periods where the right to basic services was denied based on an inherent characteristic, their journeys are not identical. this isn't about pitting one group against another; rather, acknowledging that the battle for equal rights is ongoing for everyone regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender identity, or any other aspect of human diversity.
What does this have to do with anything? He’s punching down, he’s not used to there being an unrelated group at the same level as a group he belongs too. The only comparison is the general level that he’s not punching up. That’s it.
The whole notion of you can't punch down never made sense to me. A group of people that you can't criticize or make fun of is not a group below you.
What do you mean "can't"? There's no law or anything, you can insult whoever you want just like Dave.
Then what's all the outrage about?
As usual, the algorithmic media machine is trying to drum up anger and emotion because that gets clicks and ad views. There were definitely a few transphobic jokes that I was not okay with, but to say he the special is "filled" with them is a bit much.
Also the quote "I love punching down" was clearly not sincere the way he delivered it. I didn't like the special, but the outrage over it is overblown especially considering that putting it in the news will only get more people watching it.
Dave Chappelle is the Clarence Thomas of comedy.
Anybody who's followed Chris Rock since the 90s will be familiar. It starts out as an "edgy" black comedian with an overwhelmingly white audience. It ends with your core audience using you as a black voice, that one black friend, who justifies regressive politics. I don't know if Dave is in on the joke, laughing all the way to the bank. Either way, he's playing the clown.
I thought the whole reason he abandoned his successful show was in part a refusal to shuck and jive. Kinda disappointing that he's putting on a minstrel show now.
This is an absolutely brutal takedown of Dave Chappelle
Wow.
He’s not putting on a minstrel show, he’s just voicing out his biases. The Chapelle Show had a subversive and punk edge to it because it made of fun of regressive attitudes about race, what’s happening right now just kind of proves that Chapelle himself was never subversive.
I agree with this assessment, but I also have to wonder, based on the percentage of white people who have shown me the "black kkk member" bit, and found it maybe a little too funny, what percentage of his audience was actually in on the joke. It doesn't really matter whether or not he's actually putting on a minstrel show, what matters is whether or not people perceive it as one. Partially, impossible to insure against, but still, something to be conscious of.
I'm not sure why people are surprised.
He's always held these opinions, he just hid them among other opinions that weren't as noticeable because he spread the hate around, and mostof the jokes were funny.
This is the same guy that got on his show, and had a segment where a white girl sang his words for him. If you can find the clip without using a service he profits from (I can't right now, it's only available in little "shorts" on YouTube), the whole thing is just him saying shit he doesn't like, that would get his ass "cancelled" if he said them. And the longest segment is about gay sex being gross. Trans issues weren't as visible back then, but the guy has always said this type of thing.
But for some reason, he's stopped doing it to everyone, which is what made it acceptable. He didn't spare any group, but he also didn't target any single group more often than others, except perhaps black people. And it's always acceptable to joke about your own group.
Now, he's just being a douche. The jokes aren't at all funny unless you find it funny to just bash people with no attempt at humor. It has gone far past the kind of abrasive, but exaggerated hate he used to use, but it isn't something new.
That's what always happens. It turns out when you're an asshole to "everyone", eventually you're just an asshole to minorities.
Reminder that Reid Hastings the Netflix founder is a prolific anti union and anti public school pact funder. He is a piece of shit outside of giving chappelle a platform
He also literally said "Netflix is not in the business of speaking truth to power" when he censored The Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj for Saudi Arabia.
What's a "public school pact"? I went to public school and no one ever informed me of any pact!
Fuck! When I saved that orphan from the nobles and someone chanted, "remember the pact" was that what they were talking about‽
I must've been sick that day.
They most likely mean PAC (political action committee), which is just another name for a lobbyist group.
Oh, you must've taken study hall as an elective instead of that Commune With the Old Ones class. I heard it was mislabeled as "Gym Class" so it's understandable.
He's running out of content
I'm not sure how many of you watched this based on the comments here
But his jokes really were not transphobic in this special at all
Watch the thing with context and see
"I love punching down!"
When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
I'm shocked that Dave Chappelle not only went down this route but has doubled down, especially since he walked from his own show nineteen years ago due in part to the negative racial stereotypes being pushed by the show's execs and the lack of creative control Comedy Central gave him.
And I'm more shocked that Netflix thought it was wise to release another special filled with transphobic drivel, especially since the last one generated so much negative press for them.
I watched both his and Gervais' latest last night out of morbid curiosity. Both were profoundly unfunny. To be fair, Chappelle was marginally funnier than Gervais, whose act seemed like a barely-disguised checklist of right-wing talking points spouted off by a narcissistic man-baby who constantly laughs at his own "jokes" (and seemed like he had a laugh track or just poor audio editing) Chappelle, at least, elicited a few chuckles when he was willing to make himself or th, insanely wealthy (pretty lackluster running bit about the submarine implosion) the butt of the joke. His constant making "joking" about trans, gay, and bisexual people was just not funny.
I think that the root cause of their shifts is that they were always in life for themselves, looking up at the rich and powerful thinking "I want that". So, when they were getting established, the underdog thing was useful. But, they never saw themselves as underdogs but the temporarily-embarrassed millionaires. Once the got their piece, they're right there next to the boomers with the "fuck you, I got mine" attitude to court the favor of those that will reduce their need to give back to the society that they benefitted from. I'm pretty sure neither of them are actually discriminatory in their private lives (they both basically say as much); either they just absolutely lack scruples and are happy to play a shithead to make money and powerful friends or, their pride and ego doesn't allow them to publicly acknowledge fault and not understanding that context and nuance matter (odd to think as they are professional wordsmiths).
I used to believe this, because I truly believe that we should be able to joke about everything and anything.
But when you have photo ops with right-wing nutters, run exclusively in circles with conspiracy nuts, and placate the likes of Elon Musk at your shows, it shows that even the great Dave Chappelle isn't beyond being sucked into the anti-woke brigade.
When your act starts to focus almost solely on certain subjects, you become typecast, and that's what's happening to Chappelle and Gervais. When you're putting out more material on trans people than what you were initially known for covering, something has changed in you. Most comedians that strike a nerve or hit gold on a specific topic don't make their entire identity about it, like Jim Jeffries and the infamous gun routine. They reference the impact, and move on. IMO, Chappelle and co should have moved on maybe one or two specials ago...
Rage bait
Wait, I thought he already released a special full of trans jokes... Is this another one?
He's released multiple at this point. Guess it really is the hill he wants to die on.
Its probably because people told him not to do it, and he's not gonna let anyone tElL hIm wHaT tO dO.
someone has a fixation...
A fetish, if you will.
He doubled down with this new one, and is appealing to the bottom of the barrel. Wouldn't be surprised if Dave is a low key Trump supporter
As someone who watched the special I think his greatest crime is just not being funny and thinking he's brave for doubling down. He's a boomer with a fan base and tons of money. If anything, this thread is proof that cancel culture is fake. He's Elon musk if Elon musk used to be funny.
And then after every joke he does that thing where he slaps the mic on his leg to make a sound to indicate that it’s now time to laugh.
Well that sucks. I like a lot of Dave Chappelle’s comedy and I remember in the special I had watched it a couple or few years ago he was talking about how members of the trans community expressed their thoughts to him as that he was punching down and he ended it with saying he would stop because the trans community is busy fighting for their rights to exist and until he was sure that “we are all laughing together”. I thought that was a very admirable thing to say and for him to see the effect his commentary can cause. I guess that was just him stringing words together that sound good for the product he sells.
He isn't even funny more. For someone who was at his height it's kind of pathetic that the only way he stays in the news is to be edgy now.
They are fighting for their rights to exist which sucks that they have to do that. But they are also fighting for their right to alter children forever and that's fucking crazy.
Puberty changes you forever. Letting a kid who, out of their own initiative, says "I don't want to be a man/woman" take hormone blockers in order to delay their puberty so that they can choose what they want to be once they're an adult is not altering them, but enabling them to make their own choices once they're capable.
Enabling a child to make a life altering decision before they're brain is fully developed is child abuse.
Hormone blockers are the opposite of a 'life altering decision', because you can stop taking them and whatever would have happened earlier will take place right next. Letting puberty actually happen is 'life altering', far costlier to undo and never by a complete degree.
I just reread what you said and I've never heard that take. Your saying the drugs they're giving them doesn't actually alter them forever? I don't see how missing puberty while your body is growing wouldn't effect you forever. When boys go through puberty they get physically larger and stronger, when girls go through it, they're body changes in physical ways as well. If they didn't get puberty until they're body stops growing wouldn't that just keep them stuck with a child's body for the rest of their life?
If a person with female genetics starts taking hormone blockers since they're 11 until they're 20, then stops any kind of hormone treatment, they will still grow breasts. If a person with male genetics starts taking hormone blockers since they're 11 until they're 20, then stops any kind of hormone treatment, they will still develop more muscle mass than someone without testosterone (provided they do phisical exercise). Note that taking hormone blockers is not the same as taking testosterone or estrogen.
So you're saying if we had a set of identical twins and only one of them was on hormone blockers until they were 20, their body would grow to look exactly the same as the twin who wasn't on the blockers?
Cannot watch him now. For me he has even tainted my fun recollection of his early stuff that I'd liked.
Ancient comedian desperately struggles to stay relevant, only manages to capture the attention of a few boomers and nazis. news at 11.
Not surprised he has all the self reflection of a bigoted comedian being told not to use a slur.
He will be remembered with an asterisk to anything positive he did.
Punching down is never funny. Picking on people who have been marginalized or attacked for being who they are winds up being cruel, not humorous. Maybe a skilled comedian could punch down in such a way that it's funny, but it would be an extremely rare event.
If you want to punch and be funny, you have two options. The first is to punch up. Hit the people in power. Hit the people who have luxury. For example, a joke making fun of poor people isn't likely to be funny. A joke making fun of wealthy people, though? That has a much better chance of being funny.
The other punch style is the self punch. This is where you make fun of yourself or your own "group." For example, I'm Jewish. If a non-Jew makes a "Jews run the world" joke, it'll likely come across as highly anti-semitic. If I were to make that joke, I'd stand a decent chance of getting a laugh. (Well, assuming that I had basic comedy skills.)
When the right complains that the left has ruined comedy, what they really mean is that they can't make fun of people who are suffering without being called cruel.
He's such a culture warrior hack now. Trans jokes? It's getting old bro. Your material sucks.
Stephen Fry once said that comedy is about punching up. Anyone can punch down, it takes real talent to punch up, you have to make fun of your betters, because they think they are your betters.
Beating on people who are already incredibly socially ostracized is not comedy, it's bullying. If you think it's comedy then you're a bully.
Well, I’m glad I’m closing my Netflix account.
If you don't like it, don't watch it. I've kinda given up on Chappelle. I'm not offended, he's just not really funny to me anymore. I'm sure I'll catch the few funny bits in a YT short soon and that'll be enough for me.
I think that's the biggest crime for a comedian - not being funny. He's just doing the same jokes over and over now, and it's being done by other comedians, too, so it's even more derivative.
Right? Like, you have a single job. If you can't manage that, it's time to retire.
ITT: People who thought it was ok and punching up when he made fun of ghetto black people early in his career but today have an objection when its trans white people being the topic of 3 jokes out of an hour special
Old man that's not funny and becoming irrelevant got a lot of attention from right wing chuds, so decided to pander to the right wing chuds to try and stay relevant.
He's got a really niche audience. People who think they're all cool just for being "politically incorrect." Like other comedians in the american scene.
I used to like his comedy – great storyteller and all. But lately, it's like his specials follow this routine: some jokes on how racism's still an issue, mixed with a bit of him claiming he's the top comedian alive. And let's not forget the bits where he suggests making fun of people's choices is all in good fun.
The crowd at these specials? Feels like a bunch of yes men, laughing and clapping at every word from Chappelle. It makes watching his stuff on Netflix a bit of a struggle for me.
Don't get me wrong, the guy's talented. Awesome timing and storytelling. But nowadays, being a badass doesn't mean being a bully, and it seems like that shift bugs him and his entourage of yes men. That's probably why his specials come off a bit too harsh, at least in my book.
It's crazy to me that he bitches about racism still being an issue, while he spreads hate and bigotry on another minority group.
He is right about racism, and it’s fine if his cause involves fighting it. But you’re right, bigotry and hate on others is BAD.
I hate that Netflix keeps recommending this to me. No. I don't want this kind of shit.
This is just NotTheOnion territory at this point
Yeah that's like all he does these days. The guy is out of material. Like the third or fourth special where that's the main Crux of it. Washed up
If you are disgusted by this and still subscribe to Netflix, you should consider canceling. Vote with your money and hit them in the share price.
Chapelle and Gervais seem stuck on hitting people who really can't hit back. Fucking Chapelle brags about it, Gervais is now pretending its all an act. Fuck both of them.
Oh I understand who he is. He used to be funny. Now he is just another bad act.
Did he used to be funny?
Karl and Stephen were funny. Ricky was always kind of insufferable.
Case in point: the number of times Karl's musings turned out to be true, and Ricky had berated him for those musings. Such as Karl positing "most ants don't do much," turns out that is true.
I was fine with his cringe when basically the joke was on him. He seems to have lost the thread of his humor.
Tell me. Tell me now!
Why does he think about trans people so much? Hmmm.
I knew this clown was on the decline since his first Netflix special where he has that bit about child molestation and how if its someone like Michael Jackson, it's NBD. Talk about cringe inducing.
Anyone reveling in "punching down" is a piece of shit.
His comedy has always been about making fun of essentialism in the way only comedy does (Men are like, Women are like, White people are like, etc).
His problem is that he got mad people were calling him mean and his bloated ego decided the solution was to double down and be mean on purpose. Then he decided he was smart enough to understand the entire project of personal identity (something humans have been concerned about since the beginning of writing and which likely isn’t getting much further without a solution to the mind-body problem) and did some internet research and, after generalizing the experience of two trans people and committing erroneously to the fact that most people would claim to be internally consistent in their beliefs, he decided he’s not even being vindictive anymore, he’s simply understood something true and so he’s allowed to use his (formerly anti-racist) platform to say it.
Loved his early stuff. This trans stuff not as much.
Like a shitty band that can't make it, going "christian" for a guaranteed captive audience. If you find yourself not culturally relevant anymore, the bigots will always pay for validation.
Funny at the expense of others is the least funny kind of funny.
Dave is just a weak, hateful little guy now
I saw it come up and thought I’d wait for reviews. Fears confirmed.
Must be nice to have "fuck you money" and just say insane shit but I won’t support it.
Even funnier than the special is how 90% of the commenters here obviously haven't watched it (or his previous special) and are literally just regurgitating opinions from shitty clickbait headlines like this article.
Haha Dave tickles my funny bone and gets it raging hard
poke the bear...
It was pretty weak if you ask me. I've read worse reddit comments
Think what you like about Dave Chappelle but he only had one joke about raping women. Come on people.
Edit: this comment is so perfectly controversial I can't even guess which people are down voting and which are upvoting.
.... its .. not ok... to ... tell... jokes... about... certain... people ?
This makes his losses even funnier to me. I remember when this moron never got paid for his first show because his lawyers fucked him over on his contract.
I’d had felt sorry for him if he wasn’t such a vile racist.
What a clown.
Love how he did jokes about black poverty and drug addicts for years and everyone was fine with it., but are suddenly pearl clutching about trans gags.
The Independent knew what they were doing.
They take a couple of his lines completely out of context, put it in a headline, and people can't wait to post a comment about how much they hate him.
I wonder how many of you have been given your opinion of him and never actually watched him?
I will definitely admit this latest special was "meh". But man, I'm pretty confident most of the commenters here have strong opinions of this special without ever watching it.
This thread reads like a bunch of Boomers were given a headline that "Biden paid for coke that Hunter snorted off hookers butt, in the Whitehouse.", and couldn't wait to post how much they hate Biden and that he's a criminal, or whatever.
okay, so you watched him and i didn't (got rid of netflix a few years ago).
did he make a bunch of jokes about trans people and people with disabilities? what's the context you got that i need to more accurately understand this performance?
edit a word
Watch it. Stop getting your opinions from social media.
it's not anything i'm interested in watching, honestly.
I'm not going to watch every stand up special ever made just to keep up with the news. Either tell me what context allegedly changes things or don't and shut up.
Or just don't get into internet arguments about shit you don't know anything about.
I'm not even arguing. I'm stating that the fact that I don't have enough hours in the day to watch everything that comes out. When the Ghostbusters reboot came out I said "Wow, that looks like shit!" and moved on. Some people tried to tell me I can't trust a trailer, so I read the reviews and they confirmed what I suspected. Then people tried to tell me that I can't trust reviews either, so I said "Fuck you!" and moved on, because by that logic I'd have to see everything that catches the eye of the media and I have neither the time, money, nor energy to do that. I'm not going to put myself through something I don't think I'll enjoy just because someone on the internet told me to.
The fact that nobody in this thread is able to provide additional context tells me there isn't any. This should be easy. Just do it.
See you'll note I'm not arguing here because I don't know shit about this special. I've been partying, because it's new years, so I haven't seen it.
Imagine if you just didn't get all pissed off about a thing you don't understand completely.
I'm not going to defend or attack him.
I would have to do half his routine for the context to work and I am not interested in doing that.
But just think, for a moment, about all the stupid shit boomers say, believe, and respond to, from just a headline. When they do it, you get frustrated and angry for them going off, half cocked, over nonsense.
Then realize, you are responding the same way. Not the same beliefs, mind you, but letting yourself get riled up about what someone else said about a third person.
Crap like this article is written solely for people to have an emotional response to it. They are monetarily motivated to do it. Revenue is driven by Internet traffic and ad clicks.
The reason data is so valuable is because they know what you react to. They see what generates that visceral response and then generate/tailor content because it drives viewers and clicks.
Take it a step further and you can see how it is used to generate political support and sales.
Don't let yourself get manipulated by an online article.
I am NOT telling you to like Dave Chappelle or that he's a good guy. I am telling you that the responses here, on this post are exactly why it is being done. Both his standup AND the way the article is written.
It's not about getting 'riled up about what someone else said about a third person'. You don't need to see a whole special or context to know transphobic or bigoted language when it's so prevalent. What he has said, whether he was joking or not, was already hurtful, and there is no quote or context that isn't him doubling down further.
I get what you are saying though and I agree, but I do think it's tough to not have any kind of emotional response when people are encouraging things that question your humanity or right to live.
The article itself doesn't even elaborate on the headline. It doesn't provide any real examples and just makes claims without allowing the reader any sort of useful information.
I watched the show and I can provide some context.
He did make some jokes but they weren't about trans so much but about his relationship with the community.
The handicap jokes were about making fun of himself and his comedy and how he is viewed by the trans community. It was expressed for shock value too. Said in a way to show he doesn't care who he makes fun of, that no people are safe from his humor. It fell kind of flat for me but it did not "fill his routine" as the article states.
The punching down joke was clearly sarcasm.
That being said, I found his standup to be as you described. Kind of tired and old.
He told a story about meeting Jim Carrey, while he was filming Man in the Moon. Jim was immersed in his role and everyone was talking to him, as if he was Andy Kaufman, even off set. Dave compared that to trans. Like he knew he was talking to one gender but he had to pretend they were another gender. He didn't explicitly say it that way, but that is what I inferred.
I have been a huge Chappelle fan. I have seen him really highlight hypocrisy and double standards in a cutting, but hilarious and insightful way.
But, I felt this latest standup was not particularly witty or insightful. At least when his set invloved LGBTQ. I felt he was just poking the bear to have the last word kind of thing.
His Jim Carrey story just made me feel sad because it made me believe that he really doesn't understand. Jim Carrey was trying to become someone he truly wasn't. Someone, whom is trans, is trying to become the person they truly believe they are.
He had some good insight, for me, about what it meant to him, when Wil Smith hit Chris Rock and he segued that into people's dreams and the underlying theme of the show. But then he taked about them both being men and it just reminded me that toxic masculinity is a real thing, but his set did not address it.
He talked about Lil Nas X and even though it was meant to come across as supportive, it felt forced.
But overall, I felt the jokes that involved trans were low hanging at best, and baiting at worst.
However, this "article" and the response to it, is exactly why he told those jokes the way he did. The Independent doesn't care, they are just playing the game to get clicks.
The most passionate response to Dave's routine shouldn't be more than, "That was it?"
True, news platforms definitely know how to game these controversies, thank you for giving me an idea of what the thing actually is hah. I'm not surprised it wasn't a hate-filled tirade, as people might be inclined to think with this headline.
Like you said though I feel more sad than anything usually in relation to this sort of thing. Even if he is saying offensive things, I think you are right that he genuinely doesn't understand what being trans really is and that ignorance can be hard to separate from more malicious bigotry. Even supportive people can come off as "oh what's the harm, they can be a woman if they want to pretend" at times.
If a person isn't queer or trans, or good friends with people who are, it can probably be hard to understand how much hate still exists. A comedian might think these people just need tougher skin, not realizing the potential harm, so I don't usually blame them much.
It made you sad because it's anti-trans.
Chapelle, in that cute little anecdote, is literally denying the existence of trans identity and claiming they're just acting and it's a choice. That is the way that the right is trying to erase trans identity, and it's the same playbook they used when attacking the gay community (i.e by claiming it's a lifestyle choice and not an issue of identity).
As for him not "understanding", bluntly, that is a choice. He's not some misguided poor soul. He has access to all the information you and I do. He could educate himself. But he's made a decision, and that decision is to deny the existence of trans people.
Frankly, it seems to me your fondness for Chapelle is leading you to downplay his beliefs and his behaviour.
I mean, did he do it or not? If he did, then your argument is "You guys have to watch the jokes to see if you think it's funny or not before judging whether it's tasteless."
Dave Chapelle was never funny. I hope he does something actually funny like drive his car into a telegraph pole.
yeah it's called comedy
Ha, yeah Dave's great.
Comedy is the last bastion for free speech. Our constitution's first amendment protects free speech regardless of how sensitive your feelings are or how much it has triggered your fabricated anxiety issue.
ITT: People who suck out all of the context and humor out of a joke and then insist it was never funny (even though the dude sells out arenas and everyone laughs and he's widely considered by comedy fans and other comics to be a living GOAT). Comedy is democratic. You can't say the stand up comedian is this or that, because he is telling jokes.
Comedy is part of a conversation, all art is, an artist is using their medium to say something. He has a massive platform and he is choosing to encourage even more hate against trans people. Even if his jokes about it weren't so played out and dumb there are endless things he could joke about. It's an asshole move and he chooses this topic probably because he knows it riles people up, because he is lazy and has nothing better to joke about.
He is one of the GOATs if you look at his history and he probably can still make good jokes about better topics if he chose to. Massive assholes have had huge crowds plenty throughout history, it just proves that plenty of people are dicks too.
Yes you can lol
He wasn't hired to read a script. He wrote and rehearsed the jokes he chooses to tell
Does that mean Anthony Jeselnik is a literal Nazi because he wrote jokes about the Holocaust and being the grandson of a Nazi? Or that Don Rickles was really an asshole for being an insult comic?
I do think Dave is bigoted, but I don't agree with this particular argument since insult comics and offensive comics don't have to believe the dark shit they write for the sake of humor. It's what Dave says and does off stage that shows he actually believes the shit he says.
I haven't heard Jesselnik's routine, but the Rickles comparison is not apt because Rickles was an insult comic, which is a form of doing a character, and Chapelle is a topical comedian in the vein of Pryor and Carlin. Much like Pryor and Carlin, his comedy is also a platform to express his actual views. Unlike Pryor and Carlin, he is using that platform to specifically express bigoted views. I don't think anyone would expect you to divorce Carlin's or Pryor's jokes from their politics. They make absolutely profound statements with their jokes. Listen to Pryor talk about why he won't say the N-word anymore. It's funny, and at the same time it will make you want to cry because it's so insightful.
So I think you absolutely can associate the character of a topical comedian with the content of their comedy. Because the best topical comedians out there make their comedy about their personality and opinions.
I wouldn't call him a literal Nazi but I can still get an idea of who he is as a person by the jokes he chooses to tell
You couldn't possibly be more wrong about Jeselnik or the style of black humor that he does so well.
This is boomer-tier missing the plot.
I have always found him to be obnoxious even at the height of his fame. It's bro "aren't I so edgy?" humor. Those kind of jokes just became boring for me after freshman year
I'm not missing the plot at all - I get what he's doing. I'm just not his target demographic because I matured past high school
I don't believe you.
If you had, you'd be able to recognize that his style of humor isn't yours and that's ok. You wouldn't think "man this guy must really be a Nazi."
Are you replying to the right person? My comment - that you replied to - said the following:
I'm not sure how you could have possibly read that and thought, "this guy thinks jezelnik is a Nazi!"
To be fair, Just because poeple Like it doesnt mean it is good. Hitler was elected too. Im Not saying he is a bad comedian, i dont know him. I Just think the Argument "it is good because its popular" ist Bad.
He did try to coup in 1923, but that failed and which ended him in "jail",where he wrote Mein Kampf. And He was appointed as "Reichskanzler" in 1933. The nsdap got about 17.4 Million votes that year. Wikipedia page
Pretty much. Look at Kevin Hart.
Is there a more boring comedian? I have not found a single joke of his even mildly funny.
Hitler was appointed not elected. Please read a book
You want me to read a book, but you cant even read my other comment in which i wrote he was appointed. My Point was that his ideology was widely supported.
I see. My argument here is more like "many diverse groups of people basically unanimously had the same involuntary reaction to the jokes, therefore the jokes are funny."
If I show a steak to a room full of people and 99% of their mouths water, we can safely say that the steak is appetizing.
My other point is when you strip away from a joke the context, innuendo, voice, and attitude, or you go in prejudging the comedian, you have so altered the material that it cannot be fairly judged.
I've seen all the specials and he's never struck me as any sort of bigot.
As a queer who has watched essentially everything he's released in his career, he has always had material that came off as bigoted against queer and trans people, and I've still been a fan of his until recently but I don't have a strong judgement on what his actual views might be, comedians always try to be controversial. What are the diverse groups you are talking about? Has there been some kind of objective study on the average response to his comedy? It's always been popular among a decent number to make fun of queers and trans people, women, disabled people, other groups, does that mean we can't still say "wow fuck that guy" when they do it?
By that logic, your comment having more downvotes than upvotes means it's a bad take.
He sells out arenas because there are a lot of assholes who think his bigotry is funny. Or people who didn't realize he was gonna keep on that line and left disappointed.
I hope someday people go back and look at all of these goats in their writing that aren't referring to farm animals and wind up with the greatest cringe of all time.
EDIT: Seriously, "GOAT" is a stupid acronym that I blame crappy sports punditry for...people sound like idiots saying it.
"HEY EVERYBODY! FUCK CHAPPELLE! AM I DOING IT RIGHT?! CAN I FIT IN, TOO?! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!"
Ehh. I'll probably still watch it.
Netflix appreciates your support for bigotry and is glad that you will be added to the data that shows that bigotry makes for popular programming. Otherwise, we might not make this sort of thing anymore.
I’ll be pirating this as god intended. That way I can make up my own mind about the content while also delivering one small paper cut to The Man.
They never said how they're gonna watch it, plenty of ways to see it on the high sea.
I don't really think that changes what I'm saying. I think it is unlikely that Netflix doesn't take piracy into account when calculating viewership. Because even if those aren't subscribers, they're viral marketers and drive up subscriptions because of it. Obviously, they don't want their programming to be pirated, but I think it would be foolish of them to not fold those into overall viewership numbers. I would say the same thing about Max and The Last of Us or Disney and The Mandalorian.
Your views on piracy and Netflix are so outdated. Modern day piracy is not transparent because most people abandoned torrenting which is how netflix got their numbers originally. There is nothing for them to gauge audience on, no seeders no peers. Today pirate sites are huge money makers. They have their own apps and ecosystems with quality and services better than paid services with highly sophisticated CDNs that make use of temporary domains to rotate the DNS of the players so they can't be caught.
All you do is talk out of your ass
Netflix can count on me!
Yes, you've already made your pro-bigotry stance known above. I'm just not sure why you think it's something to be proud of.
Have a day off
What?
EDIT: While you're all downvoting me, could one of you take the time to please tell me what the person I responded to meant by "have a day off?" I honestly don't know what that is supposed to mean.
It means go laugh at a joke ya wet blanket.
Did you find Rosanne's latest comedy special to be a gut-buster or were you a wet blanket who didn't watch it and laugh at her hilarious jokes?
I'm proud because I'm going to watch it twice. The first time with my trans friend. Both her and I find the topic of trans rights and freedom to exist very serious but we also know when to turn it off and enjoy a comedy show. I'll probably watch it again with my wheelchair bound nephew simply because he finds it's funny. If someone were to "punch down" on any of those ppl I have and will continue to to fight for them. It's funny that you, I, and others in the thread are on the same side of the larger issue only outside of the context of comedy.
There's no bigotry here. I know how to take a joke and some of the "targets" of his joke know how to take one as well. The real victims here are the persons who cannot take a joke. Dave will continue to attack you guys indiscriminately.
Uh-huh. And your mother is a Navajo and your best friend is both Jewish and Tibetan.
Algonquin actually. Grew up up with some sassy Jews though. No Tibetan afaik but what's your point? We still on the same side, no?
This is all very believable indeed.
Just not disabled and trans people, apparently. Good job, you. You're so supportive of people whose lives are hard enough without some cunt obsessing over them so he can "punch down" at them. Have a fucking cookie 🍪
He does a few jokes. You do the obsessing .
Is this you?
You seem to be singing a different tune there... Of course in that case, it was someone mocking white people...
Wells that’s a bit creepy of you…. But I think most people can tell the difference between being attacked (in this case, supporting the murder of gays) and being the subject of a joke ?
Maybe not, maybe that’s the problem, right ?
You’re attempting to compare a comedian telling jokes, to an elected official advocating murder. That’s always going to be a difficult thing to do.
I know. Having a memory of something that happened a few days ago and an ability to use a search function sure is creepy.
Also, the 'being attacked' you are talking about is someone saying, "Another ancient white guy. Color me shocked."
Which... I don't know... seems a whole lot less offensive than using multiple Netflix specials to repeatedly demean trans people.
But you're right, "Another ancient white guy. Color me shocked." That's just beyond the pale. What a vicious, heard-hearted, racist attack!
He’s not telling jokes. He’s repeatedly making statements that trans women aren’t real women. The very same statements that are being legislated around the country denying trans people the right to use bathrooms, participate in sports, receive necessary healthcare, have parental rights, etc. it would be like a white comic in the 40s “joking” about black people using their own bathrooms or water fountains.
Given this is this comedian's 2nd (or 3rd?) netflix special in a row where he goes after trans people, I'm not sure who's actually got the obsession.
"Goes after."
That's a stretch. He's telling jokes, not inciting an angry mob.
I was just 'exaggerating for comedic affect.' y'know - like Dave Chappelle does?
The angry mobs are already incited, he's just giving them good rhetoric
Don't forget to check out the latest season of Queer Eye too girl
Y'all are actual children.
Maybe because trans people are already in fear for their safety in much of the world? It's popular for even elected conservative politicians in the US to call them mentally ill. If your identity and right to live were a fun topic for a popular comedian with a huge following, do you think you might get irked by that? School shootings can affect anyone, those aren't about a marginalized group.
Are you putting trans people on the same level as mass shooters and pedophiles...?
Odd that you're not calling for those other subjects to face condemnations and scrutiny as well. I don't think mass shooter jokes or jokes about child sexual abuse are funny. Comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum it has real-world effects on how people think and feel about the subjects it ridicules. We shouldn't tolerate the normalization of these things.
So... you do think mass shooting and child sexual abuse should be joked about? Then what was the point of your comment at all?
It's also just true lol I don't know how to explain to you that minstrel shows were an active part of racism in America and did a lot to proliferate racist caricatures that still exist to this day. Comedy isn't magically ineffective at spreading ideology when all other forms of media are.
(Video games don't make you violent but they can spread unconscious biases about groups of people, like Muslims for example, by reinforcing who is shot at and who is doing the shooting)
It's often more effective because it feeds off of and into current societal feelings. It can shield itself behind being "just a joke" and can still be actively harmful to the minorities they target.
And you have no basis for thinking this. You didn't respond to half my comment so I'm going to assume you're aware that making a joke where the punchline "trans women are fucking disgusting and are privileged in society and are a threat to children" can absolutely promote and encourage a group of people to legitimately believe that and you just don't care.
What kind of decent joke could a comedian tell that would encourage a person to shoot up a school or be a pedo? Jokes about marginalized groups help encourage othering of that group and normalizes bigotry. I'm not saying a person can't joke about anything they want, but in a political climate where people are making historic pushes to persecute trans people I think it is a pretty massive dick move to fan the flames.
His flavor of comedy is offensive comedy. That's what made him successful. That's why I like him. He tells jokes based on what his opinions are. I don't recall him asking anyone to adopt his thinking.
I'm baffled as to why you would even think we didn't realize that his jokes were based on his atrocious opinions. His opinions are what is the problem. Let's say there is a white comedian that tells endless jokes about black people because that's what his opinion is and his flavor of comedy is offensive comedy. And then in the special, he comes right out and says, "I love being a racist." Why would that comedian be worthy of Netflix money?
Or is being ableist and transphobic more acceptable than telling jokes that are racist against black people? What if it's jokes about Jews? Would that be okay? Which marginal group should Netflix draw the line at when it comes to funding comedy specials?
He also tells jokes that are offensive to Jews and black people. Yes, it's his brand, but it's a horrible brand. He continues to double down on his shock comedy and he doesn't care who he hurts. Trans people are being murdered because of who they are, and when a public figure publicly spreads hatred against them it adds gasoline to that fire and makes the world less safe for people who are trans.
I don't really care if a comedian is offensive, but in this case it's actually dangerous.
Being offensive doesn't bother me so much as someone who's continually offensive and then plays the victim crying out that they're being cancelled while saying their horrible shit on Xitter, fox news or netflix. Ricky Gervais does the same as Chappele and it's not funny because he does have a platform and he hasn't lost money plus as you said trans people are being killed and silenced, disabled people have to fight to have people treated with some dignity.
I agree with the latter, but I also think we should care, depending on the context obviously, if a comedian is being offensive- when they are getting the sort of money and exposure Netflix gives.
I would suggest that most people here, me included, would care if Netflix gave a white Trump-voting racist and misogynist a Netflix special in order to spread their hateful views in the guise of comedy.
What I am saying is that there is offensive comedy and then there is being offensive under the guise of comedy. What Richard Pryor did was offensive comedy. It was offensive without punching down, which is why it's still so funny. The thing is- that takes a lot more work.
Lol why are you saying "we" like you're part of some special club
Yes. I'm part of that "special club" of people who realize that topical comedians tell jokes based on their opinions.
But hey, you don't want to be included in that 'we,' don't let me stop you from being ignorant about that very basic quality of comedians who do topical comedy.
I'm not even disagreeing with you lol, I just hate when people think they can speak for everyone here. Do you think you are some authority figure on lemmy?
I don't think I can speak for everyone here, but I would suggest that on this particular subject, you would find very few people who disagree that topical comedians base their comedy on their opinions, so I think I can safely speak for most people here when I say WE are not idiots who have never heard a stand-up comedy routine in our lives. If that makes me an authority figure, I guess I am one. I don't really carry 'authority on where topical comedians likely get their ideas from' as a badge of honor. I'd prefer to think of myself as just someone who thinks highly enough of the people who comment on Lemmy that he doesn't believe them to be drooling imbeciles.
But perhaps you believe that daring to think that people here don't tend to be drooling imbeciles is just going way too far.
Well you do already have 17k lemmy comments so perhaps you are the ultimate authority figure here haha
I'm waiting for a white comic doing a racist special on black people and saying : "yeah, that's just how I am, I'm not asking anyone to adapt my thinking".
You’re not familiar with his work, are you ?
Only enough to know it's not for me. But doing so much material about trans people and making fun of disabled people screams out personal issues, maybe some condition.
That’s an amazing skill to separate the comedy from the opinion, or do you agree with his opinions, too?
Nobody, practically, asks to “adopt their thinking”. It’s implicit by taking a public pulpit like this. One doesn’t get on stage unless they want to be heard. He isn’t a victim of his own success. Humor is a completely viable path to social and political commentary.
You don’t have to ask because people by and large don’t choose their beliefs. They are mostly indoctrinated into them via rationalization of inherent biases and other environmental factors. How many Muslims are born into FLDS households in Utah?
Overt bigotry and marginalization gives cover to viewers’ rationalization that it’s okay to have thoughts of discrimination against outgroups.
If you don't recognize that Dave Chappelle is funny then idk
I thought 8:46 was brilliant but it’s not what we are talking about in this post.
No one is really arguing whether he's funny or not. I think most are trying to point out that even if a person is 'just joking', telling racist, bigoted, etc jokes, it can encourage that sort of attitude and normalize bigotry in general, especially if you already have a massive platform, and to deny that is just ridiculous.
Classic Schrodinger's asshole. Say whatever you want and if anyone questions you about it, you were joking!