Gaming on Linux is pretty legit now. I don't even boot into windows very often. In recent memory, only one AAA game didn't work out of the box for me that required booting into windows.
Same here. Linux just need rolling gameplay recording and better controller support (steering wheels for one) and for me it'd be set. I know Decky has it for the Steam Deck but I haven't seen one for desktop that works fine on Wayland.
Have a rather „expensive“ sim racing rig and would love to switch over to Linux again. But it’s simply a niche in a niche so I don’t expect any surprises in the near future. Too bad
Yeah, sim racing is very much left out in the Linux world, if not pretty janky. Virtual reality isn't doing too hot here either, Valve just announced Steam Link for the Oculus headsets, and right now it's Windows only.
TBF I haven't actually tried Asetto Corsa with my steering wheel, or XPlane with my VR headset on Linux yet I just assumed it wouldn't work. As soon as they do, I can't wait to shitcan Windows forever.
I've tried Euro Truck Sim 2 with my G29, which was built for PlayStation but can work on PC with drivers on both Windows and Linux. On Linux, PS4 mode doesn't work on Linux, but PS3 mode does - the main thing is you lose the speed indicators on your wheel, if you really want them speed lights you'll have to go Windows and install G HUB.
Some say PS3 mode disables clutch support since that was the case when using it on a PS3 but IDK if this is the case on PC and specifically Linux. Cursory search points towards no.
Actually, EAC has a Proton-compatible build, the devs just have to use it. It's not a hard switch, they just have to choose to allow Linux compatibility, which most devs (well, really it's probably an exec level decision) do not.
In black desert’s case, there’s no chance they would ever allow anyone to play without a kernel anti cheat, which EAC doesn’t allow on linux. The game is literally all grind, if bots could run on linux it would absolutely ravage the already shit economy.
I'm also surprised that people see this kind of ads: I haven't seen any since I removed Outlook free (after Windows prompted me to switch because the older UWP Mail app was being retired). I'm always surprised when people complain about the number of ads they get in Windows.
But that's not the point: the point is no paid software should contain any ad.
Yeah. I was literally just talking about how my SteamDeck is going to let me retire my remaining Windows PC. And by retire it, I mean install Linux, and continue to enjoy it.
I much prefer Windows to MacOS. The fact it is missing decent tiling is a nonstarter. It's too inflexible for my workflow.
And sure, Windows can be maddeningly inconsistent, but what really destroys the experience is the constant ensh*ttification.
I know a lot of people here hate everything about Windows, but for me, it only sucks because Microsoft designs it to suck.
Not only are there ads and (some) first party lockin, I cannot trust they will continue offering updates, paywall feaures, restrict more functionality, or insert stuff like AI to mess up my workflow.
I used to think reliability was just about stability and bugginess, but now I think it is about trust as well.
There have been Linux distributions certified as Unix in the past.
When people say "Unix", they usually could care less about certification.
I'd still say that BSDs are Unix and Linux isn't due to, say, kernels of Solaris and FreeBSD having some traces of similar architecture, while Linux is a completely different thing.
Mainly because Windows has more support. Software availability is the biggest draw to Windows. I would quite happily drop it in a heartbeat if Linux came close.
MacOS has no proper UI scaling for example. Something windows had for... I don't know, ever? It was never an issue for me.
For MacOS you need a little extra tool you stumble upon after hours of debugging that teels your MacOS what resolutions your display actually supports so MacOS grants you the option of your desired HiDPI resolution.
It's stuff like this that drives me mad when dealing with the fucking Mac I am forced to use at work.
There is always going to be pros and cons when it comes to UI. Since Mac comes with a set size monitor, I can understand why there is little support for it. Although, as someone who needs PC glasses, it is a big remiss to not cater for disabilities.
As in my other comment, the display menu in settings has options titled more/less space which increase or decrease the size of text and windows on screen, this is accounted for.
Lol, is this meme for real? Most mac users would never touch Linux. Like, yes, they are both based on Unix... But come on now, this is just intellectually dishonest.
Most Mac users, in my experience, have no idea how to operate anything without an apple logo on it.
Linux users are in the (well constructed) tent camp in the local park that Mac users ride their electric scooters past while desperately trying to avoid eye contact.
Linux users are the homeowners who build and fix everything they can, but look down on people that don't find craftsmanship fun, claiming that they're saving money by doing the work themselves. Good on you for having that hobby, but if you don't enjoy it, spending time to learn those skills costs time that could be spent earning more money than you'd save. Paying an expert to do things you don't enjoy is usually the cheaper option. They can be found almost anywhere, similar to how Linux users use Apple or windows products from time to time.
Mac users are suburb dwellers who view their way of life as what everyone should aspire to, ignorant to the downsides of sprawl and reliance on cars to go anywhere. Commute times suck, while walkable neighborhoods with public transit make most people healthier and happier. There's an important classist component, often bundled with racism, that underscores this ideal.
Windows users are people that live in urban areas for work, trying to find reasonable rent or home prices as unchecked capitalism makes everything worse, but unaware why things suck. They get annoyed when people share their passion for handiwork, and dislike suburban folks for thinking they're superior rather than the downsides to suburban life. However, because most people live this way, and live this way for work, they usually don't have strong identities like suburbanites or handy homeowners.
Homeless people are those who can't afford computers, overlapping with actual homeless people, and rural people are those that don't use computers more than they need to, socializing face to face and literally touching grass.
A lot of software development in a corporate environment is using a Mac as the host. Not to say it's the target build env. So id say some Mac users know Linux far better than you think. In my experience.
Where i work, we all use macs. I'm the only developer and all others are designers.
They all look at me very oddly, when i open a terminal on their Mac and change some settings from there. They check if my changes are working and still keep that look, like if I've done something strange to their mac lol
MacOS is still Unix under the hood, and has been since they adapted NeXTSTEP.
Maybe it's just because I'm fundamentally more of a console user than a windowing-system user, but to me a Unix-based OS is always going to be a winner compared to Windows.
But, if you want to laugh at OSes, laugh at classic MacOS, where everything would grind to a halt if you clicked and held the mouse button.
Maybe it’s just because I’m fundamentally more of a console user than a windowing-system user, but to me a Unix-based OS is always going to be a winner compared to Windows.
I absolutely agree
But, if you want to laugh at OSes, laugh at classic MacOS
Yeah, apparently you need to know the origin of the word to know how to pluralize it.
One octopus, two octopuses. But you can also say "octopodes" because the elements used to create the word are originally Greek (okto for 8, pous for foot), and that's how Greek words get pluralized. But, although it was based on Greek elements it was never used in Ancient Greek. It was a modern Latin word, created in the 1700s as a scientific term using those Greek elements. As a Latin word, the "us" ending should be pluralized with "i", so "octopi" (which is one of the oldest known pluralizations of the word). But, it's an English word, and the proper way to pluralize an English word ending in "us" is to tack on "es".
So, you can go with "octopodes", "octopi" or "octopuses" and have an argument why any of them is correct.
For Unix, since it's a word created in English, it's probably "unixes". To claim it's "unices" you'd have to pretend that "unix" is a Latin word, which it isn't, and never was, but "ix" is a common declension pattern in Latin, and an uncommon ending in English, so it's fun to pretend it's a Latin word and doesn't get pluralized normally.
It's one of the reasons I absolutely hate Windows. Nearly every OS uses some form of Unix. Android is Linux, iOS is based on XNU which is FreeBSD, macOS is also XNU, Linux is unix-like, all BSDs are Unix, even the OS used in the PS4 is FreeBSD and thus Unix. Windows is the only thing that's different.
They all suck in their own unique way! For me I can tolerate the way Linux sucks, and for others it's something else. But I think we can all agree that bitching about operating systems is great catharsis.
Mac won't let me do what I want, and offers no explanation and the forums are filled with people telling me why what I want is wrong.
Windows has a way to do it, but it's hidden behind 17 menus from 8 eras if UI design, and it just won't shut the fuck up and listen to me. It has needless animations for everything, and trys so hard to be friendly that it's just infuriating.
Linux let's me do the thing. It gives no directions on how to do the thing, and if I do it wrong, it doesn't even tell me that things are fucked until six months later when I discover I accidentally told it to write the kernel logs to the bootloader and everything is on fire.
I prefer punching myself in the gonads to being called stupid or jerked around, so that's why I use Linux.
The sycophants angrily questioning why I want to do something my own way on the equipment I paid for was the most bizarro world thing, I ended up getting rid of that Mac in large part because of that type of attitude on the forums.
This is why KVM/QEMU with virtio drivers are massively helpful in using windows specific software without needing to dualboot on short notice. Proton also helps run many games on Linux, which is Windows only. Too bad the biggest strength is also a weakness. It's just a pain to set up and figure out problems that will happen from inexperience
Linux sucks for natural reasons. It's easy to tolerate because it's not trying to fuck with you, it's just a consequence of being a hodgepodge of software written by nerds for nerds. Windows sucks for malicious reasons. Microsoft is intentionally making it worse, to make more money, and that pisses me off. MacOS sucks because it assumes you're an idiot, and wants to protect itself from you. I may be an idiot, but that shouldn't stop me from breaking my own machine, god damnit!
Don't worry, Linux is still the best. But you have to get people thinking about how they use their operating system before you can get them to see the light.
If your app needs a lot of native modules Expo simply doesn't cut it. Developing iOS apps without running an iOS simulator is a lot of pain. In my early days of development my team actually tried this. There are too many quirks for each major mobile OS (Android & iOS) that makes it a lot of pain during testing if you don't at least try to run it on the simulator.
It would appear then that no MacOS before 14.0 Sonoma is a certified Unix. Which is obviously false. Which means that your implication that this page lists everything certified is wrong.
I said "releases", because these were specific versions a few years ago. Perhaps nothing relevant today was certified, still what I remember is not that different from the mundane Red Hat of the same year.
Which is all useless talk cause when we say Unix as something important, we mean "genetic Unix", as in something of being derived from the same code base, culture, philosophy, etc, not "legal Unix" as a trademark, because that's not the only cool-looking word one can imagine to name an OS.
So obviously BSDs are real Unix then, Linux is something weird and MacOS is bullshit.
Yeah, but none of the system tools and applications follow Unix-like paradigms, so it's really only Unix-like in name. Sure you can launch a bash or zsh shell, but there aren't a lot of useful things you can do with that without installing a bunch of third party tools like brew, so the experience isn't all that different from having to install Cygwin or WSL in Windows.
I mean that you can't really do much with those userland tools to effectively manage and configure your system. All configuration is abstracted away in a forest of xml files (i.e. /Library/Preferences) that's as opaque and undocumented as the Windows registry and which you're not supposed to touch other than with the approved GUI tools.
MacOS applications never follow Unix principles either regarding file placement.
So yeah while MacOS technically still is "Unix", it really is a giant monolithic blob of shite built on top of the skeleton of what once was a decent Unix.
Well, you haven't been very specific with your language.
All configuration is abstracted away in a forest of xml files (i.e. /Library/Preferences) that’s as opaque and undocumented as the Windows registry and which you’re not supposed to touch other than with the approved GUI tools.
It's been some time since I touched MacOS, but there is a CLI tool for editing those preferences. Not unlike gconf. Actually gconf is apparently inspired by that and the Windows registry you so conveniently mentioned.
Not that I'm a fan, quite the opposite.
MacOS applications never follow Unix principles either regarding file placement.
"Unix principles" is the same as "Unix philosophy", while you apparently mean Linux FHS. Yes, it's understandably ignored. Yes, maybe it shouldn't be.
So yeah while MacOS technically still is “Unix”, it really is a giant monolithic blob of shite built on top of the skeleton of what once was a decent Unix.
Well, see, comparing FreeBSD to Linux with its development path, for example, you might feel as if Linux was slowly moving in that direction as well. Linux users usually laugh at that sentiment and say that it's evolution. So - MacOS too has what its developers considered evolution from what Linux/FreeBSD/... have.
Ah, also X11 is not that integral and traditional for Unix, if you imply that as well. Sun had its SunView in the olden days. There were other windowing systems.
Arguably Arch Linux also lacks proper Window management. The idea of macOS is to give you a solid base which is stable, functional and looks good. Then you can add your own window management type on top whether you want a Windows style one like magnet or a tiling one like amethyst.
Seriously, if Apple decides an app is too old, then it flat out doesn't work. No way to prevent updating either unless it is basically without internet.
Linuxians like to complain about not being able to control Windows, but Mac is like a hundred times worse in that regard. Not to mention ads to all those Apple software on there.
Does Windows still allow your applications to function update after update if you decide to stick with Windows 10? Yes. Can you just stay on W10 and expect things to keep working? Also yes.
I don't have to worry about the newest version of Adobe Premiere not being compatible with this older version of iOS, oops now our promo team and our production team aren't able to share their files because one bought newer Macs and now has an upgraded version of Adobe that Catalina doesn't support unless you also buy new machines that are allowed to update through to Monterey.
Apple is fine for home use, but as someone who works operations side IT and has to constantly perform network workarounds to get their equipment functional in a commercial environment, fuck Apple and their "We did the thinking for you uwu™️" nonsense.
And OMG, Apples business support is absolute horse shit
Device management? Good fucking luck. Setting up iOS device management is by far the most painful, migraine inducing, poorly thought out, full of the most asinine restrictions process I've ever seen in my life.
Setting up Oracle on-prem software is a cake walk compared to Apples shit.
Windows is a business OS with consumer features, MacOS is a consumer OS with business (poorly executed) "features"
They update Macs for a good 8 years or so, which isn't that bad really. Then you can often just install newer versions with community tools after that.
Edit: I haven't had one in a few years, apparently that's not quite true recently as they're trying to drop x86 support and move everything to ARM
That's more of an architecture shift as opposed to we don't support it because fuck you, also Rosetta means most x86 Mac apps will be able to run on the m-series chips.
Yeah I think most people have experienced an iPad or iPhone but not a Mac so they assume it's the same walled garden. What they don't realise is Mac has been a solid choice for power users, developers and creators of all varieties for over 10 years, this means the community and app selection is honestly ridiculously good.
This. Been using Windows since 95 and Linux since 2008. Mac is the only thing I tried twice (for two years each) and I just cannot get past this mobile-feeling of not being able to customise basic stuff. Mac GUI is not intuitive for me. It's good that people that like it can use it. It's bad that I don't have any choice as soon as I am on Apple hardware.
I find this meme completely tone deaf. The issue with mac isn't that it lacks Unix features, it's everything else.
The only place I've ever seen ads on my MacBook is in the App Store, the iCloud section of settings and on Apple's website, all of which it makes sense for the adverts to exist. Oh wait I may have seen one as a precursor to a YouTube video but sans ad-blocker that is standing regards of OS.
I cant wait to fully abandon windows with my next tower (Already on Linux with my deck) but MacOS is FAR MORE cancer than M$, part of the issue with M$ is it keeps trying to be more and more like Apple
2 edits: I think someone replied to this and then blocked me (or someone I've blocked replied to me somehow) as apparently theres a response to this but I cant see it nor have I been notified
And
Damn, a lot of you apparently want a mega corp have complete control over what what your operating system looks like/does/what accessories you can buy for it if you think Apple is in anyway better than Microsoft. I thought the whole point of jumping to linux was freedom, you have LESS freedom with macs than with PC's
I thought this until I actually tried windows, it just doesn't work right ever and feels so weird and old. I wouldn't use macos, but it's fine, it feels competently made and for the most part makes sense.
Yes, Windows feels old but at least is usable (10 was more usable that 11 in my opinion). MacOS feels very janky to me and you have to jump to various hoops to do basic things
There are plenty of developers who use macs for work, me included. I mainly go with Mac for the build quality/battery life/performance though and also because my work pays for it so I don't need to worry about the exorbitant price. I would agree that MacOS is pretty janky at times and it requires a few third party apps to be reasonable usable.
But I'm not really sure what you mean by useful bits? I don't feel like I'm really restricted in MacOS. If there isn't a UI element for something, you can probably adjust it in a terminal.
Generally, yes. I like MacOS more than windows because it's at least *nix.
But to be honest I have no strong opinions on OS when it comes to work. I've used windows*/Linux/MacOS and none have stood out as far superior to get my work done faster or more efficiently.
I use MacOS with my Mac because that's what's installed out of the box.
The main things that seem to hold me back from working efficiently are programs that are required by the company to maintain their ISO accreditation like Microsoft "intune" or what ever it's called.
It’s not true in the slightest. Terminal is an app that comes on every Mac and is shown in the Launchpad and Applications folders. It’s not hidden at all.
I work in IT and i'd wager that 95+% of MacOS users don't know how to find their Library folder or how to view other hidden directories. Keychain Access is also an unnecessarily convoluted system to use as a desktop password manager. The System Settings layout is also not intuitive (not that System Preferences was much better). And although MacOS is a *nix system, there have been plenty of times where I've had to Google certain commands to fix things that are different than on Linux.
I think the recent line of MacBook Pros (M1 and onward) clearly have a focus on the professional segment - stopping the focus on very thin computers, touch bars instead of function keys and USB C ports only.
I personally love those features as a developer, I don't need every type of port pretty much just one would be enough in a perfect world we would use wireless to interface all peripherals and media items like cameras
Windows for Dev is very common actually. And not just for .Net based stuff. Many devs that I know work on Windows. I used all three OS for Dev and I don't know why Windows is always listed as a nightmare. Maybe fifteen years ago but not now.
I will always choose Windows over Mac, if I have to. Using MacOS is infuriating on so many levels, I'd rather give myself the bullet (which doesn't mean much tbh). At least I can ameliorate Windows for my VMs (in case of apps not working on Wine) which makes it ok to use
I know that this is irrational and I try to not let it influence my perception of people, but my brain is usually wired to "Mac user detected: technical opinion discarded"
For me, they both suck. I've been on Linux for close to 10 years now and continue to enjoy it more and more.
However, I will say, that if I need to recommend a computer to somebody who knows nothing about computers and doesn't want to know anything, I will recommend Apple. I die a little inside each time though, knowing about their right to repair and privacy policies.
Honestly, if y'all would help your friend out with Linux they might be interested. If you just write down a note for them with the most basic commands for Debian, they would be okay.
DE:
Use GNOME
Partiton layout:
Use default /home for everything, don't make seperate partitions for /root, /var, etc.
Add their user(s) to the sudoers file
CTRL+ALT+T to open the command line
Basic commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
Install Flatpak, and bookmark Flathub in their browser. That should be good enough and honestly anyone could figure this out.
Be a good neighbor and teach them then. It's not as hard as most people think it is. I've taught my mom, grandma, and friend how to use Linux before. My grandma uses Debian daily and she only had experience with computers by playing those online casino sites. Now she does it in full freedom and now I saved her some extra dough to throw into becoming a online casino addict! Yay grandma!
I am trying to say you guys should set it up for them, make it easy for them. It is very easy to just setup a taskbar and let them click on the browser, file explorer, etc.
I'm not sure why you are being downvoted but I agree with you. Helping them set up the first time makes their transition to Linux smoother. I just had someone's laptop prepared with the steps you outlined in your previous comment and left them on how to install flatpak apps. They said they want to learn more beyond flatpak and genuinely interested how to learn to install the distro themselves.
Linux > windows 10 > Windows 11 > MacOS is my experience, I just can't stand apple and their walled gardens. I hate that they try to force me to use their shitty cloud and prevent me from installing third party apps. Windows 11 hhurts my eyes. And as a W10 refugee that's gotten used to linux, I think its tolarable
I'm an Android fan, but I do like the walled garden for iPhones. There are so many people who just do not understand how to protect their privacy online, and phones are a treasure trove of personal information. I've no doubt that the tight controls on iOS have saved many people from identity theft due to their own negligence. That, combined with the ease of use and the superior accessibility features over Android makes iPhone the better choice for older generations who don't understand technology as well.
I would agree that a reasonably locked down device helps certain audiences stay secure, but to me that always sounds like a convenient excuse. Surely they could at least implement some way to regain control, even if that meant having to unlock the boot-loader and flashing the device, which is not something your average person would/could do.
Honestly you can use a Mac perfectly well without ever signing into iCloud + you don't get prompted to sign in ever really unless you click on a feature that requires iCloud like the iCloud tab in settings.
You can even use the apps like mail without ever signing into iCloud.
In my experience, win 8.1 < win 10: less CPU and ram hogging, less telemetry, and overall less frustration. Although, yeah, you'd have to replace metro crap with something less tablet-oriented.
Well, duh. Kinda funny how windows server is a better desktop windows than a regular windows. Basically, you get less candy_crush-like crap plus only security updates, as far as I remember. But yeah, there are different unnecessary features (unless you're in the corporate environment, ofc)
Although, I'm not really sure nowadays since I haven't used windows for a few years 😅
It requires a little bit of computer knowhow but is definitely possible, heres a video of a guy building a custom pc and installing macos on it
Here is the open source software he used to do it
I got haggled for being a macos user in college because, "pc was superior". Turns out, that the CompSci people that gave me shit about my Mac, didn't understand the difference between "PC" and "Windows'. My MacBook is still the best laptop I've ever owned. It literally survived having beer being pulled into it's fan, and it's battery turned into a balloon long ago... it still runs fine, almost a decade later (if I keep it plugged in). I was "tech illiterate" to people because I used a MacBook. But switching from windows to mac, got me comfortable with trying linux. It got me comfortable with being uncomfortable, because I was constantly trying to figure out how to "get this to work on macos"
I've met a lot of tech-illiterate people over the years... and they all gave me less shit about trying something different.
Well, "tech illiterate" is relative. Some people may be ignorant of how their desktop works, but do wonderful things with PD or something else for synthesizing music, which requires knowing lots of math and music theory and signal processing.
Never be arrogant, please remember than people doing actual stuff - developers, business analysts, musicians, artists etc, and even lowly office workers sometimes, - are kinda more important than IT personnel. There are of course infrastructure and network admins who know their sh*t quite well and get paid accordingly.
Yet everytime you open Twitter they act like they know what they're talking about and send clown emojis whenever someone responds with a counter argument
Have you tried Manjaro? Steam makes it pretty simple with proton (which is based on wine) to run games. (Or if you prefer, arch. Manjaro is arch with a gui installer)
In what way is macOS more closed than Windows? The kernel is open source, the app store and cloud stuff is entirely optional, and it runs most Unix-y stuff natively.
In the ability to legally and without hassle install it on random PCs.
The kernel is open source
The actual userland is proprietary in both cases. Opening Apple Terminal on macOS and using homebrew is as "open" as running Windows Terminal with WSL: Basically the things in the terminal are FOSS, the graphical surroundings of both systems aren't.
Having used both, I don't find WSL comparable to macOS's native unix shell. Aside from the bloat of it, integration with the rest of the OS is troublesome on Windows, and WSL apps are second-class citizens. On macOS, there is no "rest of the OS" because the unix shell is fundamental. It's not running in a virtual environment like WSL; it is the native environment.
the WSL 2 architecture uses virtualized networking components, which means that WSL 2 will behave similarly to a virtual machine -- WSL 2 distributions will have a different IP address than the host machine (Windows OS).
As of right now WSL 2 does not include serial support, or USB device support
If you have no open file handles to Windows processes, the WSL VM will automatically be shut down. This means if you are using it as a web server, SSH into it to run your server and then exit, the VM could shut down because it is detecting that users are finished using it and will clean up its resources.
WSL is a great addition to Windows, but it's still kind of a band-aid.
Having used both, I don’t find WSL comparable to macOS’s native unix shell.
I use Windows with openSUSE WSL, macOS with homebrew and "real" Linux.
Aside from the bloat of it
Which bloat? It's just a regular terminal.
WSL 2 will behave similarly to a virtual machine
That's not so much different from a sanboxed environment on native Linux where a Flatpak application can request file system access but not touch processes outside its sandbox. If anything, I prefer that I have all my regular openSUSE thingies (zypper, my own Build Service repository,...) available unmodified on Windows, whereas the macOS terminal (and I know that's subjective) just feels off.
It’s a virtual environment that requires installation of an entire Linux system. The disk and memory usage is not comparable to a native Unix OS.
Everything uses some sort of "virtual environment" these days. It's not bloat, it's the norm. homebrew does not use native macOS libraries except the very low level stuff. It handles its own dependencies. "Regular" macOS applications usually bundle their dependencies inside the .app folder bundle. On Linux, Flatpak installs its own dependencies. Heck, for whatever reason the Bazzite maintainers decided that installing Steam within a Arch Linux distrobox container is somehow preferable to the alternatives and Steam on Linux in turn uses "virtual environments" because the various Steam Linux Runtimes are specialized Ubuntu and Debian environments and every version of Proton is its own "virtual environment" of Windows.
I've bought a notebook almost exactly 10 years ago for €629 that had a 1TB hard drive and that I've upgraded to 16 or 24GB RAM for relatively little money (IIRC around €100). Sure, if you look at the insane prices that Apple asks for even a pathetic 8GB RAM / 256 GB SSD entry level MacBook, you surely want to avoid "bloat" but for many people in the regular x86 PC world a few "virtual environments" here and there don't make a difference and aren't considered bloat at all. If anything, for WSL users being able to run most unmodified Linux binaries is a benefit over relying on crappy ports of GTK to macOS and such because those ports of Linux software to macOS integrates so well...
I disagree with the characterization of Homebrew as a "virtual environment". It installs binaries and libraries in its own directory and by default adds those directories to your PATH. This makes them first-class entities on macOS. Unlike with WSL, there is no secondary kernel and no hypervisor. Everything runs natively within the macOS environment. There's no bridge, no virtualizer, not even sandboxing with Homebrew or MacPorts. Homebrew and MacPorts do not install "Linux" software; they install Mac software.
As a real-world example, I can install newer versions of standard tools like openssl and kerberos5 via MacPorts or Homebrew, and native Mac apps that rely on those pick them up seamlessly. I don't think that is realistic with WSL, if even possible.
I haven't re-evaluated a lot of development stuff since the release of WSL2, so perhaps things are smoother now, but in WSL1 I found there to be a big disconnect between e.g. a Windows-native installation of Spyder and a WSL-based Python environment. If there is a way to set that up, rather than installing Spyder within WSL and wrestling with X11 to run it as a second-class GUI, I'd love to hear it.
From what I have gathered online, it seems like most people believe that macOS is (slightly) more private than Windows. macOSshow you detailed characterization of the telemetry, and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
I cannot verify this claim, since I never owned an apple product.
That being said, if I have to use a closed-source OS, I would probably choice window, since I am more familiar with it and it is (slightly) more open than macOS.
You can shut down all telemetry in Windows Pro/Enterprise, I believe. You probably could with regular, too, especially if you're blocking all Microsoft domains via DNS, firewall, or other methods.
and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
If only most telemetry can be turned off on macOS, it retains some basic telemetry that cannot be turned off. How is that better than basic telemetry on Windows?
I use Windows and Mac but I would think that Mac is slightly better. Just because I got this privacy statement off them once where they said they will do as much processing locally as they can, rather than sending it off to the cloud to be processed. I just appreciate that they acknowledge that.
Also, Windows has just swapped to a new default email app that requires I sync my email with their own servers. They can fuck off with that.
At least when I open up Mac OS, it doesn’t show me a pop up ad telling me how XBOX CONTROLLERS COME IN SO MANY COLORS NOW click here to buy.
I’ve gotten that pop up the last 3 times I’ve booted up my windows machine.
Windows is great for gaming. But it’s the only thing I turn that machine on for.
Gaming on Linux is pretty legit now. I don't even boot into windows very often. In recent memory, only one AAA game didn't work out of the box for me that required booting into windows.
No joke, most of my games work better on Linux because of proton than my Windows box. Such a nice experience.
Same here. Linux just need rolling gameplay recording and better controller support (steering wheels for one) and for me it'd be set. I know Decky has it for the Steam Deck but I haven't seen one for desktop that works fine on Wayland.
Have a rather „expensive“ sim racing rig and would love to switch over to Linux again. But it’s simply a niche in a niche so I don’t expect any surprises in the near future. Too bad
Yeah, sim racing is very much left out in the Linux world, if not pretty janky. Virtual reality isn't doing too hot here either, Valve just announced Steam Link for the Oculus headsets, and right now it's Windows only.
TBF I haven't actually tried Asetto Corsa with my steering wheel, or XPlane with my VR headset on Linux yet I just assumed it wouldn't work. As soon as they do, I can't wait to shitcan Windows forever.
I've tried Euro Truck Sim 2 with my G29, which was built for PlayStation but can work on PC with drivers on both Windows and Linux. On Linux, PS4 mode doesn't work on Linux, but PS3 mode does - the main thing is you lose the speed indicators on your wheel, if you really want them speed lights you'll have to go Windows and install G HUB.
Some say PS3 mode disables clutch support since that was the case when using it on a PS3 but IDK if this is the case on PC and specifically Linux. Cursory search points towards no.
Used it before but not for rolling recordings. I heard it can be janky with hotkeys on Wayland, but I'll have to give it a shot.
Highly recommend this feels exactly like I still have shadowplay with no performance loss.
Actually, EAC has a Proton-compatible build, the devs just have to use it. It's not a hard switch, they just have to choose to allow Linux compatibility, which most devs (well, really it's probably an exec level decision) do not.
In black desert’s case, there’s no chance they would ever allow anyone to play without a kernel anti cheat, which EAC doesn’t allow on linux. The game is literally all grind, if bots could run on linux it would absolutely ravage the already shit economy.
it doesnt seem to be that way, https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/01/easy-anti-cheat-not-as-simple-as-expected-for-proton-and-steam-deck/
That's unfortunate, but not surprising. I can't exactly expect Epic to port the wine compatible version to the old release, so it makes sense.
I only ever boot Windows for VR. That's it
I gave up on trying BattleBit for free on Ubuntu 22.04 this weekend, no Proton or GE-Proton version would run that motherfucker.
I didn't feel like booting Windows.
Modding can be an issue though.
Btw, does Wallabag work now on Linux?
And i don't get Reshade since 5.* to work in wine/proton anymore?
I have never ever seen this on my windows install.
Just disable everything I don't get this on my pc
Me either. Not that I'm advocating this BS practice!
The very first thing you have to do when you start to use a new Windows or phone is to spend an hour or two disabling all the bullshit options.
I'm also surprised that people see this kind of ads: I haven't seen any since I removed Outlook free (after Windows prompted me to switch because the older UWP Mail app was being retired). I'm always surprised when people complain about the number of ads they get in Windows.
But that's not the point: the point is no paid software should contain any ad.
I've never once seen this, is it W11?
I'm on W11 and have never seen an ad in the OS.
I think it's much more agressive in some territories. I'm in Europe an I never saw it either.
Otoh, I don't boot windows very often, maybe once a month.
Yeah. I was literally just talking about how my SteamDeck is going to let me retire my remaining Windows PC. And by retire it, I mean install Linux, and continue to enjoy it.
If you can't even find the option to disable suggestions, can you even call yourself a computer expert?
No, but you can call yourself a gamer.
I much prefer Windows to MacOS. The fact it is missing decent tiling is a nonstarter. It's too inflexible for my workflow.
And sure, Windows can be maddeningly inconsistent, but what really destroys the experience is the constant ensh*ttification. I know a lot of people here hate everything about Windows, but for me, it only sucks because Microsoft designs it to suck.
Not only are there ads and (some) first party lockin, I cannot trust they will continue offering updates, paywall feaures, restrict more functionality, or insert stuff like AI to mess up my workflow.
I used to think reliability was just about stability and bugginess, but now I think it is about trust as well.
I use Amethyst on Mac for tiling: https://ianyh.com/amethyst/.
Not sure if that's what you meant though.
Yabai works pretty well even with SIP enabled and there's a new one called AeroSpace that's in the works.
https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace
Thanks for the tip, aerospace looks to be exactly what I've been looking for for a long time #^-^#
Looks nice, I'll check it out if I have to use Mac OS again.
Let's hope you don't
Is that so? I've been wanting to try a tilling manager for Linux, thanks for the recommend!
I'm searching for some document on my work PC and I see ads in my start menu, like what the fuck?
Can somebody exploit that already so they get rid of it
macOS 15 will have tiling. At last lol
I don't understand when people say macOS is inflexible, I find it incredibly flexible, stable and efficient.
Mac is worse than Windows
From the standpoint of linux that is true.
There have been Linux distributions certified as Unix in the past.
When people say "Unix", they usually could care less about certification.
I'd still say that BSDs are Unix and Linux isn't due to, say, kernels of Solaris and FreeBSD having some traces of similar architecture, while Linux is a completely different thing.
Mainly because Windows has more support. Software availability is the biggest draw to Windows. I would quite happily drop it in a heartbeat if Linux came close.
MacOS has no proper UI scaling for example. Something windows had for... I don't know, ever? It was never an issue for me.
For MacOS you need a little extra tool you stumble upon after hours of debugging that teels your MacOS what resolutions your display actually supports so MacOS grants you the option of your desired HiDPI resolution.
It's stuff like this that drives me mad when dealing with the fucking Mac I am forced to use at work.
There is always going to be pros and cons when it comes to UI. Since Mac comes with a set size monitor, I can understand why there is little support for it. Although, as someone who needs PC glasses, it is a big remiss to not cater for disabilities.
As in my other comment, the display menu in settings has options titled more/less space which increase or decrease the size of text and windows on screen, this is accounted for.
These features are for consistent stability. The more space/less space option under display is more than enough for most use cases.
So trash UI scaling is a feature? Try changing your display to a non-HiDPI one. Does this look good to you?
I've connected my Mac to 4k and 1440p displays and had no issues, in fact it was a pleasant experience.
"I've had no issues therefore the issue doesn't exist."
Well no I mean I've tried the exact issue you were complaining about and it looked great
At least it's unix
Lol, is this meme for real? Most mac users would never touch Linux. Like, yes, they are both based on Unix... But come on now, this is just intellectually dishonest.
Most Mac users, in my experience, have no idea how to operate anything without an apple logo on it.
Linux users are in the (well constructed) tent camp in the local park that Mac users ride their electric scooters past while desperately trying to avoid eye contact.
Linux users are the homeowners who build and fix everything they can, but look down on people that don't find craftsmanship fun, claiming that they're saving money by doing the work themselves. Good on you for having that hobby, but if you don't enjoy it, spending time to learn those skills costs time that could be spent earning more money than you'd save. Paying an expert to do things you don't enjoy is usually the cheaper option. They can be found almost anywhere, similar to how Linux users use Apple or windows products from time to time.
Mac users are suburb dwellers who view their way of life as what everyone should aspire to, ignorant to the downsides of sprawl and reliance on cars to go anywhere. Commute times suck, while walkable neighborhoods with public transit make most people healthier and happier. There's an important classist component, often bundled with racism, that underscores this ideal.
Windows users are people that live in urban areas for work, trying to find reasonable rent or home prices as unchecked capitalism makes everything worse, but unaware why things suck. They get annoyed when people share their passion for handiwork, and dislike suburban folks for thinking they're superior rather than the downsides to suburban life. However, because most people live this way, and live this way for work, they usually don't have strong identities like suburbanites or handy homeowners.
Homeless people are those who can't afford computers, overlapping with actual homeless people, and rural people are those that don't use computers more than they need to, socializing face to face and literally touching grass.
This is a very interesting analogy, thanks for sharing
Thanks, Jessica.
They're totally, definitely, absolutely not Jessica!
I think it still works. The user you describe doesn't care about Linux, they just don't like windows. So they would not wash their hands
A lot of software development in a corporate environment is using a Mac as the host. Not to say it's the target build env. So id say some Mac users know Linux far better than you think. In my experience.
Some, that's the point
Where i work, we all use macs. I'm the only developer and all others are designers.
They all look at me very oddly, when i open a terminal on their Mac and change some settings from there. They check if my changes are working and still keep that look, like if I've done something strange to their mac lol
Generally I agree, but specifically a little fact - the most qualified person at my work is a Mac user.
My Mac is such a slow piece of shit on Mac OS that it's nearly unusable without installing Linux.
MacOS is still Unix under the hood, and has been since they adapted NeXTSTEP.
Maybe it's just because I'm fundamentally more of a console user than a windowing-system user, but to me a Unix-based OS is always going to be a winner compared to Windows.
But, if you want to laugh at OSes, laugh at classic MacOS, where everything would grind to a halt if you clicked and held the mouse button.
I absolutely agree
Or some weird old Unixes like AIX
Yeah, but at least they're unixes (unices?).
I think Unices would be correct, if it works like "appendix" etc...
Or it could be “Unixes”, as in “prefixes”, or “crucifixes”.
English is a weird language.
Yeah, apparently you need to know the origin of the word to know how to pluralize it.
One octopus, two octopuses. But you can also say "octopodes" because the elements used to create the word are originally Greek (okto for 8, pous for foot), and that's how Greek words get pluralized. But, although it was based on Greek elements it was never used in Ancient Greek. It was a modern Latin word, created in the 1700s as a scientific term using those Greek elements. As a Latin word, the "us" ending should be pluralized with "i", so "octopi" (which is one of the oldest known pluralizations of the word). But, it's an English word, and the proper way to pluralize an English word ending in "us" is to tack on "es".
So, you can go with "octopodes", "octopi" or "octopuses" and have an argument why any of them is correct.
For Unix, since it's a word created in English, it's probably "unixes". To claim it's "unices" you'd have to pretend that "unix" is a Latin word, which it isn't, and never was, but "ix" is a common declension pattern in Latin, and an uncommon ending in English, so it's fun to pretend it's a Latin word and doesn't get pluralized normally.
Eunuchs
No, we're not talking about the users. (And the polite term is incel.)
I figured it was more a voluntary thing for this group. A voncel if you will.
Ahhh! The sweet taste of hardware and software flaws. (Every platform had them lol)
This. I'm not sure why more people don't know this, but macOS is actually UNIX certified. Linux isn't.
Well, GNU stands for Gnu is Not Unix, so...
Yes, I know. That's why it's always kinda funny when you see Linux users shitting on MacOS for not being UNIX enough for their taste.
Linux isn't Unix, it's Unix-like
And that's part of what I like about it. I know how to operate in the terminal and it's the same in all Unix OSes.
It's one of the reasons I absolutely hate Windows. Nearly every OS uses some form of Unix. Android is Linux, iOS is based on XNU which is FreeBSD, macOS is also XNU, Linux is unix-like, all BSDs are Unix, even the OS used in the PS4 is FreeBSD and thus Unix. Windows is the only thing that's different.
Windows after hearing this:
Nah, Windows always does that on its own. No intervention required.
As both a MacOS and Linux user I agree with myself on the regular that Windows is shit.
I also wash my hands on the regular.
Great meme, very accurate.
ಠ_ಠ
All three are shit. You can't change my mind.
They all suck in their own unique way! For me I can tolerate the way Linux sucks, and for others it's something else. But I think we can all agree that bitching about operating systems is great catharsis.
Mac won't let me do what I want, and offers no explanation and the forums are filled with people telling me why what I want is wrong.
Windows has a way to do it, but it's hidden behind 17 menus from 8 eras if UI design, and it just won't shut the fuck up and listen to me. It has needless animations for everything, and trys so hard to be friendly that it's just infuriating.
Linux let's me do the thing. It gives no directions on how to do the thing, and if I do it wrong, it doesn't even tell me that things are fucked until six months later when I discover I accidentally told it to write the kernel logs to the bootloader and everything is on fire.
I prefer punching myself in the gonads to being called stupid or jerked around, so that's why I use Linux.
The sycophants angrily questioning why I want to do something my own way on the equipment I paid for was the most bizarro world thing, I ended up getting rid of that Mac in large part because of that type of attitude on the forums.
This is why KVM/QEMU with virtio drivers are massively helpful in using windows specific software without needing to dualboot on short notice. Proton also helps run many games on Linux, which is Windows only. Too bad the biggest strength is also a weakness. It's just a pain to set up and figure out problems that will happen from inexperience
Linux sucks for natural reasons. It's easy to tolerate because it's not trying to fuck with you, it's just a consequence of being a hodgepodge of software written by nerds for nerds. Windows sucks for malicious reasons. Microsoft is intentionally making it worse, to make more money, and that pisses me off. MacOS sucks because it assumes you're an idiot, and wants to protect itself from you. I may be an idiot, but that shouldn't stop me from breaking my own machine, god damnit!
I can tolerate how windows and Linux suck, but window management (or the lack there of) on macos triggers me.
Filthy enlightened centrist! how dare you not pick a side and point out that all sides are equally terrible in their own special ways!
Don't worry, Linux is still the best. But you have to get people thinking about how they use their operating system before you can get them to see the light.
I'm just playing the long game... I hope.
Average BSD user:
Im willing to bet someone sometime will have the balls to fork templeos and turn it into an actually usable distro on par with bsd, mark my words
I use linux for programming and learn to enjoy everything being 3x harder than needed (Stockholm's syndrome), but it's not like it's good
I use Windows for gaming (I could use linux to do it, but windows is easier), but it's not like it's any good
I won't be paying whatever 4 months worth of my income on a MacBook, so it's not like it matters if macOS is any good
Is it bad that I can't tell if you're middle income or just want enough RAM to do something useful?
I'm from Brazil. I didn't know this term, but quick googling shows me that Brazil is an upper-middle-income country.
I make around R$ 3620 ($740 USD) per month, a more than average income in Brazil. A MacBook Air M2 15" comes for R$ 15000 ($3069 USD).
I just vomit at the idea that they're making these laptops with ram soldered in. unupgradable garbage you have to pay ridiculous premiums for.
bu bu but its "Apple Unifed Memory" and 8GB of that equals to 16GB of regular ram!!1!
I get that they're using some fancy mem, it's not like pc1600 dimms or some shit... BUT not ever being able to yank the old and pop in new? bonkers.
Sadly if you're doing mobile app work Macs are mandatory.
Walled garden starting to look a lot like a padlocked cell...
Tell me how to make iOS apps on Linux
Nowadays you can use Expo, if you want to use React Native. They take care of everything, so a Mac isn't needed anymore
If your app needs a lot of native modules Expo simply doesn't cut it. Developing iOS apps without running an iOS simulator is a lot of pain. In my early days of development my team actually tried this. There are too many quirks for each major mobile OS (Android & iOS) that makes it a lot of pain during testing if you don't at least try to run it on the simulator.
I agree. It's not impossible but it's cumbersome. You at least need an iOS device.
Downvoters scoff at iPhone users.
Sorry but as a Linux user I found that Windows is better than macos. Macos doesn't even have proper window management.
My experience is the same, but still it's a Unix-like system. People who fear Linux may do Unix-like things with it. It's worth something.
Linux is unix-like, macOS is certified unix.
Certification is irrelevant really. There are Linux distribution releases which have been certified, just like MacOS.
It would appear then that no MacOS before 14.0 Sonoma is a certified Unix. Which is obviously false. Which means that your implication that this page lists everything certified is wrong.
I said "releases", because these were specific versions a few years ago. Perhaps nothing relevant today was certified, still what I remember is not that different from the mundane Red Hat of the same year.
Which is all useless talk cause when we say Unix as something important, we mean "genetic Unix", as in something of being derived from the same code base, culture, philosophy, etc, not "legal Unix" as a trademark, because that's not the only cool-looking word one can imagine to name an OS.
So obviously BSDs are real Unix then, Linux is something weird and MacOS is bullshit.
Yeah, but none of the system tools and applications follow Unix-like paradigms, so it's really only Unix-like in name. Sure you can launch a bash or zsh shell, but there aren't a lot of useful things you can do with that without installing a bunch of third party tools like brew, so the experience isn't all that different from having to install Cygwin or WSL in Windows.
Eh, WTF? It has normal Unix-like userland tools.
You can't do much without a package manager under Linux either.
Homebrew, macports, pkgsrc etc are all just ports collections, like the FreeBSD one. A pretty Unixy kind of thing to use, more so than apt or yum.
I hate Apple GUI, but technically it's almost as good as Linux to use.
You don't understand what I mean.
I mean that you can't really do much with those userland tools to effectively manage and configure your system. All configuration is abstracted away in a forest of xml files (i.e.
/Library/Preferences) that's as opaque and undocumented as the Windows registry and which you're not supposed to touch other than with the approved GUI tools.MacOS applications never follow Unix principles either regarding file placement.
So yeah while MacOS technically still is "Unix", it really is a giant monolithic blob of shite built on top of the skeleton of what once was a decent Unix.
Well, you haven't been very specific with your language.
It's been some time since I touched MacOS, but there is a CLI tool for editing those preferences. Not unlike gconf. Actually gconf is apparently inspired by that and the Windows registry you so conveniently mentioned.
Not that I'm a fan, quite the opposite.
"Unix principles" is the same as "Unix philosophy", while you apparently mean Linux FHS. Yes, it's understandably ignored. Yes, maybe it shouldn't be.
Well, see, comparing FreeBSD to Linux with its development path, for example, you might feel as if Linux was slowly moving in that direction as well. Linux users usually laugh at that sentiment and say that it's evolution. So - MacOS too has what its developers considered evolution from what Linux/FreeBSD/... have.
Ah, also X11 is not that integral and traditional for Unix, if you imply that as well. Sun had its SunView in the olden days. There were other windowing systems.
To add with Linux being unix-like not certified unix, macOS doesn't need to implement anything in Linux fhs style.
Arguably Arch Linux also lacks proper Window management. The idea of macOS is to give you a solid base which is stable, functional and looks good. Then you can add your own window management type on top whether you want a Windows style one like magnet or a tiling one like amethyst.
Windows doesn't even have a proper terminal lol
Missing the third hand for Windows users
Honestly MacOS is not great. At least with windows machines you can boot into a live system.
And have actual control over the OS.
Seriously, if Apple decides an app is too old, then it flat out doesn't work. No way to prevent updating either unless it is basically without internet.
Linuxians like to complain about not being able to control Windows, but Mac is like a hundred times worse in that regard. Not to mention ads to all those Apple software on there.
Apple: "Sorry but your hardware seems to be out of date with our OS! Please buy another 3000 dollar laptop that's only worth 1000!"
Me: "But it still runs?"
Apple: "Does it, though?"
Me: "Well not anymore... Thanks."
Not to defend Apple, but doesn't windows 11 demand you buy new hardware for it to be installed? Something about a TPM?
Does Windows still allow your applications to function update after update if you decide to stick with Windows 10? Yes. Can you just stay on W10 and expect things to keep working? Also yes.
I don't have to worry about the newest version of Adobe Premiere not being compatible with this older version of iOS, oops now our promo team and our production team aren't able to share their files because one bought newer Macs and now has an upgraded version of Adobe that Catalina doesn't support unless you also buy new machines that are allowed to update through to Monterey.
Apple is fine for home use, but as someone who works operations side IT and has to constantly perform network workarounds to get their equipment functional in a commercial environment, fuck Apple and their "We did the thinking for you uwu™️" nonsense.
And OMG, Apples business support is absolute horse shit
Device management? Good fucking luck. Setting up iOS device management is by far the most painful, migraine inducing, poorly thought out, full of the most asinine restrictions process I've ever seen in my life.
Setting up Oracle on-prem software is a cake walk compared to Apples shit.
Windows is a business OS with consumer features, MacOS is a consumer OS with business (poorly executed) "features"
Apple: "It just works!*"
*As long as it's not a business feature
You can turn that off (unofficially) no such luck on mac
Yeah you need an Intel 8th gen or a ryzen processor in order to use it without a workaround. Something from the last 6 years.
You don't need 8th Gen. It's just that 7th gen specifically doesn't work. I'm pretty sure older Intel chips are fine. TPM isn't on your CPU.
Correct, I was trying to keep it simple but yes more specifically you need a TPM 2.0 capable system
They update Macs for a good 8 years or so, which isn't that bad really. Then you can often just install newer versions with community tools after that.
Edit: I haven't had one in a few years, apparently that's not quite true recently as they're trying to drop x86 support and move everything to ARM
That's more of an architecture shift as opposed to we don't support it because fuck you, also Rosetta means most x86 Mac apps will be able to run on the m-series chips.
I've seen MacBook's last for 8+ years and remain performant.
What on earth are you on about? You're completely in control of updates and you can enable the root account and do whatever you want. It's still UNIX.
Are you talking about iOS/iPadOS? macOS is nothing like this and I have no idea what you're on about.
Yeah I think most people have experienced an iPad or iPhone but not a Mac so they assume it's the same walled garden. What they don't realise is Mac has been a solid choice for power users, developers and creators of all varieties for over 10 years, this means the community and app selection is honestly ridiculously good.
This. Been using Windows since 95 and Linux since 2008. Mac is the only thing I tried twice (for two years each) and I just cannot get past this mobile-feeling of not being able to customise basic stuff. Mac GUI is not intuitive for me. It's good that people that like it can use it. It's bad that I don't have any choice as soon as I am on Apple hardware. I find this meme completely tone deaf. The issue with mac isn't that it lacks Unix features, it's everything else.
The only place I've ever seen ads on my MacBook is in the App Store, the iCloud section of settings and on Apple's website, all of which it makes sense for the adverts to exist. Oh wait I may have seen one as a precursor to a YouTube video but sans ad-blocker that is standing regards of OS.
Mac users are at the sink right next to them also washing their hands. We don’t talk about the nasty things Linux users do with their hands.
Are Mac users compatible with normal sinks and water or do they need an adapter?
Apple will happily sell you a MagSafe dongle to dangle in the sink beside your neighbor.
Adapter, unless the EU forced them to change that.
All those filthy command line arguments <3
Yeah seriously. I don’t show anyone my bash history. That’s nastay.
I cant wait to fully abandon windows with my next tower (Already on Linux with my deck) but MacOS is FAR MORE cancer than M$, part of the issue with M$ is it keeps trying to be more and more like Apple
2 edits: I think someone replied to this and then blocked me (or someone I've blocked replied to me somehow) as apparently theres a response to this but I cant see it nor have I been notified
And
Damn, a lot of you apparently want a mega corp have complete control over what what your operating system looks like/does/what accessories you can buy for it if you think Apple is in anyway better than Microsoft. I thought the whole point of jumping to linux was freedom, you have LESS freedom with macs than with PC's
I find I have plenty of freedom on a Mac
in my opinion:
software: mac/osx >> windows
community/environment: windows/microsoft >> mac/apple
if we're solely talking about how good the os is, i would have to say mac. but considering everything else, i would prefer windows
Windows > macos
I thought this until I actually tried windows, it just doesn't work right ever and feels so weird and old. I wouldn't use macos, but it's fine, it feels competently made and for the most part makes sense.
Yes, Windows feels old but at least is usable (10 was more usable that 11 in my opinion). MacOS feels very janky to me and you have to jump to various hoops to do basic things
All Apple products are designed for people who don't use technology.
They hide the useful bits so people don't hurt themselves.
It's the Duplo of computing.
There are plenty of developers who use macs for work, me included. I mainly go with Mac for the build quality/battery life/performance though and also because my work pays for it so I don't need to worry about the exorbitant price. I would agree that MacOS is pretty janky at times and it requires a few third party apps to be reasonable usable.
But I'm not really sure what you mean by useful bits? I don't feel like I'm really restricted in MacOS. If there isn't a UI element for something, you can probably adjust it in a terminal.
So if I understand you correctly, it’s more about the hardware and not the software that’s appealing to you?
Generally, yes. I like MacOS more than windows because it's at least *nix.
But to be honest I have no strong opinions on OS when it comes to work. I've used windows*/Linux/MacOS and none have stood out as far superior to get my work done faster or more efficiently.
I use MacOS with my Mac because that's what's installed out of the box.
The main things that seem to hold me back from working efficiently are programs that are required by the company to maintain their ISO accreditation like Microsoft "intune" or what ever it's called.
*Only when required.
What a ridiculously ignorant position to have. Do you even know how common it is for developers to run macOS?
You're aware that there's Unix underneath the pretty polish as well, right?
It’s not true in the slightest. Terminal is an app that comes on every Mac and is shown in the Launchpad and Applications folders. It’s not hidden at all.
I work in IT and i'd wager that 95+% of MacOS users don't know how to find their Library folder or how to view other hidden directories. Keychain Access is also an unnecessarily convoluted system to use as a desktop password manager. The System Settings layout is also not intuitive (not that System Preferences was much better). And although MacOS is a *nix system, there have been plenty of times where I've had to Google certain commands to fix things that are different than on Linux.
I think the recent line of MacBook Pros (M1 and onward) clearly have a focus on the professional segment - stopping the focus on very thin computers, touch bars instead of function keys and USB C ports only.
I personally love those features as a developer, I don't need every type of port pretty much just one would be enough in a perfect world we would use wireless to interface all peripherals and media items like cameras
Windows for Dev is very common actually. And not just for .Net based stuff. Many devs that I know work on Windows. I used all three OS for Dev and I don't know why Windows is always listed as a nightmare. Maybe fifteen years ago but not now.
They actually heavily target Developers with MacBook Pro, they even have a whole conference every year dedicated to developers.
Also I think fighting with macOS is the problem, there are a few walled off things however it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Tell me you’ve never used a Mac before without telling me.
#iPhonesAreForBoomers
I live with four other people. The two of us over 40 use Android and the others use iOS.
To me it's MacOS that feels weird.
Extracting archives on Windows... LOL
I havent done that on Win11 though
Windows ≅ macos
I'm surprised you have more upvotes than downvotes, but yeah, this is a comment that I would expect to get lots and lots of votes.
Agreed.
Yup, it is simply so lost and uncontrolled that I could totally live in it and replace the garbage software with something else.
I will always choose Windows over Mac, if I have to. Using MacOS is infuriating on so many levels, I'd rather give myself the bullet (which doesn't mean much tbh). At least I can ameliorate Windows for my VMs (in case of apps not working on Wine) which makes it ok to use
I know that this is irrational and I try to not let it influence my perception of people, but my brain is usually wired to "Mac user detected: technical opinion discarded"
Maybe if you noticed a lot of developers run Mac then you'd see their technical opinions are usually worthwhile.
Nah I was quite literally born with the name mac... Literally on my birth certificate that way.
I agree JS doesn't require as much technical knowhow.
I have to use all three what does that make me
A jack of all trades and a master of none?
What about a master of two?
Cuck?
Got a little laugh from me, ngl lol.
For me, they both suck. I've been on Linux for close to 10 years now and continue to enjoy it more and more.
However, I will say, that if I need to recommend a computer to somebody who knows nothing about computers and doesn't want to know anything, I will recommend Apple. I die a little inside each time though, knowing about their right to repair and privacy policies.
I would never recommend an apple computer unless it's for audio production. Getting one fixed is a nightmare
Honestly, if y'all would help your friend out with Linux they might be interested. If you just write down a note for them with the most basic commands for Debian, they would be okay.
DE: Use GNOME
Partiton layout: Use default /home for everything, don't make seperate partitions for /root, /var, etc.
Add their user(s) to the sudoers file
CTRL+ALT+T to open the command line
Basic commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
Install Flatpak, and bookmark Flathub in their browser. That should be good enough and honestly anyone could figure this out.
You clearly don't have much experience with the full bell curve of people's ability with computers.
Be a good neighbor and teach them then. It's not as hard as most people think it is. I've taught my mom, grandma, and friend how to use Linux before. My grandma uses Debian daily and she only had experience with computers by playing those online casino sites. Now she does it in full freedom and now I saved her some extra dough to throw into becoming a online casino addict! Yay grandma!
librechad flexing his 500 iq family and friends
meanwhile in my family:
I am trying to say you guys should set it up for them, make it easy for them. It is very easy to just setup a taskbar and let them click on the browser, file explorer, etc.
I'm not sure why you are being downvoted but I agree with you. Helping them set up the first time makes their transition to Linux smoother. I just had someone's laptop prepared with the steps you outlined in your previous comment and left them on how to install flatpak apps. They said they want to learn more beyond flatpak and genuinely interested how to learn to install the distro themselves.
Sometimes a broken tool is the right tool for the job.
Gotta scrub off the .DS_Store
Linux > windows 10 > Windows 11 > MacOS is my experience, I just can't stand apple and their walled gardens. I hate that they try to force me to use their shitty cloud and prevent me from installing third party apps. Windows 11 hhurts my eyes. And as a W10 refugee that's gotten used to linux, I think its tolarable
The walled garden makes sense on the phone, but I’m not clear what you’re thinking of for macOS
I just went to videolan.org and libreoffice.org over Thanksgiving to download and install them on my cousin’s MacBook
I have to click through ten million pop ups to have macOS "trust" it. It makes me hate myself
That's true and annoying. There is a terminal command to disable all that though
oh I would love to learn what that command is
sudo spctl --master-disableand/or--global-disableStill usually less clicks than most windows installers though. (Personally I hate all 3 OS's more or less equally)
Actually no. Not really. Also there is no more braindead argument than "I hate all of x equally". Form a real fucking opinion
There's no opinion to form. They all suck absolute donkey balls in their own unique ways.
I'm an Android fan, but I do like the walled garden for iPhones. There are so many people who just do not understand how to protect their privacy online, and phones are a treasure trove of personal information. I've no doubt that the tight controls on iOS have saved many people from identity theft due to their own negligence. That, combined with the ease of use and the superior accessibility features over Android makes iPhone the better choice for older generations who don't understand technology as well.
The problem is that you are trusting Apple completely.
I'm not trusting Apple at all, I exclusively use degoogled Android.
Me too
I would agree that a reasonably locked down device helps certain audiences stay secure, but to me that always sounds like a convenient excuse. Surely they could at least implement some way to regain control, even if that meant having to unlock the boot-loader and flashing the device, which is not something your average person would/could do.
Honestly you can use a Mac perfectly well without ever signing into iCloud + you don't get prompted to sign in ever really unless you click on a feature that requires iCloud like the iCloud tab in settings.
You can even use the apps like mail without ever signing into iCloud.
In my experience, win 8.1 < win 10: less CPU and ram hogging, less telemetry, and overall less frustration. Although, yeah, you'd have to replace metro crap with something less tablet-oriented.
Alternatively, server editions are OK.
wait, server edition on desktop?
Well, duh. Kinda funny how windows server is a better desktop windows than a regular windows. Basically, you get less candy_crush-like crap plus only security updates, as far as I remember. But yeah, there are different unnecessary features (unless you're in the corporate environment, ofc)
Although, I'm not really sure nowadays since I haven't used windows for a few years 😅
I wish every time someone talked shit about operating systems they woke up having switched OS with their grandmother.
Good thing I installed Mint on her PC then.
I called her and convinced her to switch to DOS. Now you can play Chuck Yeager’s air combat. You’re welcome.
Commander Keen, ftw.
Zzt and Mechwarrior, thank u drive thru.
Same lmao, but for both my grandparents
They still haven't noticed anything different.
They definitely have, they are just being nice.
You gravely underestimate my grandparents' inexperience with tech.
Mint is just Windows 10 but Linux anyway for normal use
Cinnamon:
– Mom can we get windows?
– We already have windows at home.
AfterliveOS?
I would be so okay with this. My grandmother was a boss with a badass gaming rig.
What does that mean? Have the OS she had? Windows 10, I personally debloated it haha
No fair you cheated. She clicked an update for windows 11 and she loves Cortana!
She can't rice worth shit.
I don't think my grandmother used computers
I would have iPadOS 💀 Thankfully I hate all OS's equally.
Amen. Getting tired of this pointless bashing. They each have their flaws. I would love to be all-in on Linux but will probably never get there.
Hides my macOS KVM I setup for fun
Very interesting, how do you do that? Can you even set it up without an A$ account?
I followed this guide https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM
It requires a little bit of computer knowhow but is definitely possible, heres a video of a guy building a custom pc and installing macos on it Here is the open source software he used to do it
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
video
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
i mean os x is basically just darwin and bsd with a gui
Linux is basically just Linux and GNU with a gui
Windows is basically just NT with a gui
I don't get it
What are windows mainers doing in a linux community? Shoo, we don't want Edge or Bing or popup ads in our games.
As a windows user, i'll respect your opinion and fuck off. However i WILL be back bitch!! (My next OS is 100% linux)
You will be welcomed back with open arms my (future) friend.
I'm not your (future) friend, (future) buddy!!!
I'm not your (future) buddy, (future) pal!
Ow yeah?! Well I'm not your (future) pal, (future) friend!
Ehh, I'm not sure. In my experience, apple users are too tech illiterate to have any opinions on windows, not even incorrect ones.
I got haggled for being a macos user in college because, "pc was superior". Turns out, that the CompSci people that gave me shit about my Mac, didn't understand the difference between "PC" and "Windows'. My MacBook is still the best laptop I've ever owned. It literally survived having beer being pulled into it's fan, and it's battery turned into a balloon long ago... it still runs fine, almost a decade later (if I keep it plugged in). I was "tech illiterate" to people because I used a MacBook. But switching from windows to mac, got me comfortable with trying linux. It got me comfortable with being uncomfortable, because I was constantly trying to figure out how to "get this to work on macos"
I've met a lot of tech-illiterate people over the years... and they all gave me less shit about trying something different.
I don't use arch btw
Well, "tech illiterate" is relative. Some people may be ignorant of how their desktop works, but do wonderful things with PD or something else for synthesizing music, which requires knowing lots of math and music theory and signal processing.
Never be arrogant, please remember than people doing actual stuff - developers, business analysts, musicians, artists etc, and even lowly office workers sometimes, - are kinda more important than IT personnel. There are of course infrastructure and network admins who know their sh*t quite well and get paid accordingly.
My stepdad used iMac because he doesn't like Windows.
Yet everytime you open Twitter they act like they know what they're talking about and send clown emojis whenever someone responds with a counter argument
Linus Torvalds uses MacBooks.
Haha yup it sucks
OpenVMS is the way.
I use all 3 for different things and I'll stop using windows the second gaming hardware and games work somewhere else the same way.
Have you tried Manjaro? Steam makes it pretty simple with proton (which is based on wine) to run games. (Or if you prefer, arch. Manjaro is arch with a gui installer)
swap macos for *BSD and I'd agree
Linux user should really be shown with a hoodie sleeve...
I have often chosen MacOS over Windows, though Windows has come a long way since 95. It isn't as infuriating to use anymore.
I've been a Mac user off and on since the late 80s and used Windows and Linux off and on since the 90s.
For the last 10+ years: Mac laptop, Linux desktop, and a Windows laptop for the occasional times it is convenient.
That's an amazing meme, would anyone happen to have a template of it?
Nice recycling of Reddit memes
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
No, this is Patrick!
I see this comment under a lot of meme posts, do you want content or not?
Wtf is that?
If you pay enough money to people in important positions then even windows will be UNIX certified) nowadays everything is for sale
Mac user here. I'd wash my hands too.
In what way is macOS more closed than Windows? The kernel is open source, the app store and cloud stuff is entirely optional, and it runs most Unix-y stuff natively.
In the ability to legally and without hassle install it on random PCs.
The actual userland is proprietary in both cases. Opening Apple Terminal on macOS and using homebrew is as "open" as running Windows Terminal with WSL: Basically the things in the terminal are FOSS, the graphical surroundings of both systems aren't.
Having used both, I don't find WSL comparable to macOS's native unix shell. Aside from the bloat of it, integration with the rest of the OS is troublesome on Windows, and WSL apps are second-class citizens. On macOS, there is no "rest of the OS" because the unix shell is fundamental. It's not running in a virtual environment like WSL; it is the native environment.
Microsoft details some of the little gotchas of WSL in their FAQ: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq . A few notable ones:
WSL is a great addition to Windows, but it's still kind of a band-aid.
I use Windows with openSUSE WSL, macOS with homebrew and "real" Linux.
Which bloat? It's just a regular terminal.
That's not so much different from a sanboxed environment on native Linux where a Flatpak application can request file system access but not touch processes outside its sandbox. If anything, I prefer that I have all my regular openSUSE thingies (zypper, my own Build Service repository,...) available unmodified on Windows, whereas the macOS terminal (and I know that's subjective) just feels off.
It's a virtual environment that requires installation of an entire Linux system. The disk and memory usage is not comparable to a native Unix OS.
Everything uses some sort of "virtual environment" these days. It's not bloat, it's the norm. homebrew does not use native macOS libraries except the very low level stuff. It handles its own dependencies. "Regular" macOS applications usually bundle their dependencies inside the .app folder bundle. On Linux, Flatpak installs its own dependencies. Heck, for whatever reason the Bazzite maintainers decided that installing Steam within a Arch Linux distrobox container is somehow preferable to the alternatives and Steam on Linux in turn uses "virtual environments" because the various Steam Linux Runtimes are specialized Ubuntu and Debian environments and every version of Proton is its own "virtual environment" of Windows.
I've bought a notebook almost exactly 10 years ago for €629 that had a 1TB hard drive and that I've upgraded to 16 or 24GB RAM for relatively little money (IIRC around €100). Sure, if you look at the insane prices that Apple asks for even a pathetic 8GB RAM / 256 GB SSD entry level MacBook, you surely want to avoid "bloat" but for many people in the regular x86 PC world a few "virtual environments" here and there don't make a difference and aren't considered bloat at all. If anything, for WSL users being able to run most unmodified Linux binaries is a benefit over relying on crappy ports of GTK to macOS and such because those ports of Linux software to macOS integrates so well...
I appreciate your well-reasoned arguments.
I disagree with the characterization of Homebrew as a "virtual environment". It installs binaries and libraries in its own directory and by default adds those directories to your PATH. This makes them first-class entities on macOS. Unlike with WSL, there is no secondary kernel and no hypervisor. Everything runs natively within the macOS environment. There's no bridge, no virtualizer, not even sandboxing with Homebrew or MacPorts. Homebrew and MacPorts do not install "Linux" software; they install Mac software.
As a real-world example, I can install newer versions of standard tools like openssl and kerberos5 via MacPorts or Homebrew, and native Mac apps that rely on those pick them up seamlessly. I don't think that is realistic with WSL, if even possible.
I haven't re-evaluated a lot of development stuff since the release of WSL2, so perhaps things are smoother now, but in WSL1 I found there to be a big disconnect between e.g. a Windows-native installation of Spyder and a WSL-based Python environment. If there is a way to set that up, rather than installing Spyder within WSL and wrestling with X11 to run it as a second-class GUI, I'd love to hear it.
the only thing about is that it WAS opensource
Oh, someone didn't read their OS's privacy policy...
From what I have gathered online, it seems like most people believe that macOS is (slightly) more private than Windows. macOSshow you detailed characterization of the telemetry, and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
I cannot verify this claim, since I never owned an apple product.
That being said, if I have to use a closed-source OS, I would probably choice window, since I am more familiar with it and it is (slightly) more open than macOS.
You can shut down all telemetry in Windows Pro/Enterprise, I believe. You probably could with regular, too, especially if you're blocking all Microsoft domains via DNS, firewall, or other methods.
If only most telemetry can be turned off on macOS, it retains some basic telemetry that cannot be turned off. How is that better than basic telemetry on Windows?
I use Windows and Mac but I would think that Mac is slightly better. Just because I got this privacy statement off them once where they said they will do as much processing locally as they can, rather than sending it off to the cloud to be processed. I just appreciate that they acknowledge that.
Also, Windows has just swapped to a new default email app that requires I sync my email with their own servers. They can fuck off with that.
Um, what? I don't think windows is private or open.
I think you're confusing MacOS with iOS.