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worldnews·World NewsbyJack.

Palestine-Israel Crisis Megathread II

This is the second megathread for discussion regarding the crisis.

Informal/Satirical news sources are not allowed on the main feed of the community but you are free to post them in this thread.

Please remember that all community and instance rules apply to this thread hence keep is civil.

View original on lemmy.ml
lemmy.ml

I am going to use this thread to make a continuation of what I've posted in the first megathread where I shared a plethora of related links that share insight on the nature of this conflict.


Reports

#Nakba

Burying the Nakba: How Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs

Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew

Editorial | There Are Thousands of Classified Pages Israel Has Yet to Reveal, for the Sake of Healing

'I Saw Fit to Remove Her From the World'

Zionist Militia’s Efforts to Recruit Nazis in Fight Against the British Are Revealed

#Recent Events

Using an Attack Dog, Israeli Women Soldiers Forced Palestinian Women to Undress

Cigarette Burns, Beatings, Attempted Sexual Assault: Settlers and Soldiers Abused Palestinians

Israeli Settler Documented Shooting Palestinian at Point-blank in the West Bank

Israeli tank fires on car near Gaza City

Hundreds Involved in Attacking Arabs and Leftists, but Israel Police Arrest Only Four

Far-right Israeli Knesset Member Zvi Sukkot to Head Subcommittee on the West Bank


Perspectives

#Videos

Dr. Gabor Maté (Holocaust Survivor)

^ Here's an interview regarding recent events.

Katie harper interviews political scientist and activist, Norman Finklestein

^At 1:43:50, Finklestein asserts that Israel would bomb a residential area, wait for people to come out and call an ambulance, and then bomb the ambulance.

Katie Harper interviews journalists and political activists regarding recent events.

^At 00:24:15, Ali asserts that Israel is willing to shoot their own civilians as evidenced by the Hannibal Directive, verifiable events, and testimonies such as Yasmin Porat's where the IDF was shooting indiscriminately and even fired tank shells into Israeli homes.

#Articles

How colonizers weaponize rape: reflections from the Palestinian case

Opinion | Dying in Southern Gaza: 'I Want to Go Home. At Least I’ll Die After Drinking Fresh Water'

Opinion | Amid the Mourning, Israel's Settlement Enterprise Celebrates a Great Victory


Testimonials

Israeli Soldier's Explosive Tell-All: "Palestinians are right to resist" - Former IDF soldier talks about how he realized that his actions were perpetuating apartheid, and that Palestinians were right to resist through any means.

Tantoura Ethnic Cleansing Testimony - Yosef Diamant ^[There is a whole-ass documentary for those interested.

Breaking the Silence - Israeli NGO where IDF veterans testify their experiences. Some examples:


If you find any other notable background information, feel free to share.

20

I recommend this book written by Ilan Pappe a jewish historian, who now lives and works in UK.

2

Here will be a compiled list of 972 magazine articles related to this conflict, continually updated as I delve into this harrowing treasure trove of information:

July 31, 2015: Palestinian baby burned to death in West Bank arson attack

July 31, 2016: A year since the Duma murders: Navigating justice and pain

October 12, 2020: For Israel, tens of thousands of Palestinian newborns don’t exist

June 8, 2021: Settlers shot Palestinian and mutilated his body as he lay dying

July 15, 2021: Joint militias: How settlers and soldiers teamed up to kill four Palestinians

April 5, 2022: Israel charges Palestinian journalists with incitement — for doing their jobs

April 10, 2022: Israel’s false promise of security

May 25, 2022: Israel says this book justifies Masafer Yatta expulsions. Its author begs to differ

July 8, 2022: This Israeli forbids Palestinians from building. He lives in an illegal outpost

July 11, 2022: Classified document reveals IDF ‘firing zones’ built to give land to settlers

August 11, 2022: ‘We killed a little boy, but it was within the rules’

August 30, 2022: Israel destroyed Palestinian village for luxury settlement that was never built

September 15, 2022: How Israeli media reported a ‘lynching’ that never happened

September 26, 2022: ‘We built the Palestinian Authority with blood. We won’t give up on it’

November 8, 2022: “He asked me how many children I have. Then he said: ‘Now you have one less.'”

October 5, 2022: In Jenin and Nablus, resistance and despair go hand in hand

January 24, 2023: A coming out party for Israel’s religious Jewish left

February 16, 2023: The theft of Harun Abu Aram’s body, home, and life

February 27, 2023: The pogrom is the point

March 2, 2023: ‘They were burning our house with kids inside. The army didn’t let us through’

March 5, 2023: ‘I couldn’t see if my brother’s murderer was a soldier or settler’

March 13, 2023: ‘Who hits a 64-year-old woman with a bat?’

March 22, 2023: Armed settlers break into Palestinian family home under cover of darkness

May 3, 2023: Revealed: The IDF unit turning ‘hilltop youth’ settlers into soldiers

November 13, 2023: How a hasbara group’s sham investigation put Gaza journalists in the firing line

November 23, 2023: What Israelis won’t be asking about the Palestinians released for hostages

November 30, 2023: A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

December 8, 2023: ‘It would’ve been better if they shot us’: Palestinians recount prison abuse

December 11, 2023: ‘Diseases are spreading rapidly’: In Jabalia camp, thousands shelter in one school

December 19, 2023: Gaza’s rescue workers are haunted by those they couldn’t save

December 19, 2023: A Palestinian student briefly deleted her social media. Israel revoked her permit

December 28, 2023: Palestinian Christians in Gaza fear being ‘swept under the rubble or into the desert’

1
links.dartboard.social

They migrated from North Arabia and took Jewish land every time the Jews were forcefully removed by a long line of oppressors. Then, when every Arab country started kicking out Jews, thy had nowhere to go but their homeland. When they arrived in the early 40's en masse, the Palestinian leader met with Hitler to see about exterminating them. You got the colonizer/colonized dynamic backwards. This is what happens when you get your info from Facebook.

I saw this YouTube comment where people were arguing whether the Palestinians or Jewish people were there first. Does anyone know how accurate this comment is?

0
Dreamerreply
lemmy.ml

Seems like baseless rhetoric to justify the ongoing colonization and atrocities of the past century.

First, Arabs and Hebrews both have ancestry dating to the Levant back in the bronze age. Many of the Jews back then would have descendents that would later convert to Christianity and Islam.

Second, up until the colonial era, when the Jews were being persecuted by European nations, they sought refuge under Arab and Muslim rule. One notable example would be the Muslim Sultan, Salah ad-Din, allowing Jews to resettle in Jerusalem after the European Crusaders brutally kicked them out. Another example would be the treatment of Jews under the Ottoman Empire.

Third, even if all of this was not true, that does not justify the ongoing oppression, atrocities, ethnic cleansing, genocide of the indigenous people for the past 75 years, nor does it change who is and isn't a colonizer and the colonized. This video gives a good explanation on why.

4

Thanks! You seemed very informed about the conflict so yours felt like a good comment to ask that question under, which had been on my mind since I saw it under an old Abby Martin video of her interviews with Israelis. That video looks like it will probably take some time to watch but it gives me a place to start.

3
lemmy.world

What's the educated opinion of how could this been handled by Israel? Honest question. (Ignoring the fact that Israel failed with intel)

To me it seems like Gaza had no intention to get rid of Hamas though at the same time bombing is unnecessary as the culprits can't really leave other than the secret tunnels to Egypt which can't really be bombed.

So the only real alternative is a full Blockade and ultimatum or something? Clearly Gaza doesn't stand a chance against IDF too so Israel had all of the cards to conjure any response they wanted.

I've tried to Google similar modern scenarios and couldn't find anything.

15
Tangentismreply
lemmy.ml

To me it seems like Gaza had no intention to get rid of Hamas though at the same time bombing is unnecessary.

There hasn't been elections for 16 or 17 iirc so how can Palestinians "get rid of" Hamas?

Hamas was supported & funded by Netanyahus likud party specifically because it drove a wedge between those in Gaza and in the West Bank. Classic divide and conquer technique.

As for what Israel can do? They can get rid of the genocidal crook that's running their government and his two murderous far right henchmen and grasp that he had concocted this situation for several reasons:

To divert attention away from his corruption and fraud indictments

To quell the protests that have been going on for months against him because of the corruption and legislation he has passed to curtail the supreme courts ability to hold the executive to account.

To level Gaza, ethnically cleanse it & genocide the Palestinian people so he can get to the natural gas and oil reserves there.

Yes, there's a lot Israel can do and it needs to be quick about it.

48
burrito82reply
feddit.de

It sounds like you just put everything you don't like about Israel in that answer, but without actually giving an answer how this actually could be handled. "Just don't to bad stuff, do good stuff" How would that have been an appropriate response to the terrorist attack?

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Tangentismreply
lemmy.ml

You're talking as though the attacks happened in a vacuum, without intelligence from several sources pre-warning of it and without a certain level of collusion from the Israeli executive to allow it to happen and bring capitalised by then for it's maximum effect.

When you can genuinely approach the subject not from such a disingenuous perspective then my response may well be perceived by you as a bit more than "If you don't want to be taken for a cunt then don't act like one "

12
burrito82reply
feddit.de

For me it sounds like you are you saying, they deserve the terrorist attack and are not allowed to react to it.

-5

That would be the exact reactionary response I would expect from someone with no grasp of the history, its complexity or even a miniscule amount of knowledge of the atrocities that have been carried out against civilians by both sides

5
Tangentismreply
lemmy.ml

So you didn't bother to read my comment then?

If you're too lazy to do that, why the fuck should I put any effort beyond this in replying?

4
JohnDClayreply
sh.itjust.works

I did. Replacing the government with one less bad would be good, but what should such a theoretical good government do in response to the Hamas attack? For example, I think more fewer air strikes and more ground combat would be better for minimizing civilian casualties, though more Israeli soldiers would die as a result.

-4

Restore Palestine to the 1917 borders. Grant all Palestinians equal rights within those borders. All zionists who were involved in perpetrating war crimes either directly, or indirectly via policy, to face trial at the Hague

6
SheeEttinreply
lemmy.world

Ideally Israel wouldn't have been oppressing Palestinians in the first place so that Hamas would never have come to power. They could have engaged in dialogue and diplomacy with Hamas and the Palestinians to figure out something that would work for everyone. They could have negotiated a prisoner swap or something for the hostages.

But Israel, specifically Likud and the right-wing parties, have no interest in this. They want all of Palestine gone, and to control it all themselves.

27
oakey66reply
lemmy.world

Not to mention that Hamas had accepted the 1967 borders back in 2017 and it was Netanyahu who rejected it. Hamas is a pet project by Netanyahu to divide Palestinians in Gaza from the West Bank. He’s helped nurture and support them as a means to do more land grabs and expand Israel’s territorial grip. So the starting point has to be a full withdrawal of the occupation, the ability for Palestinians to have a democratic government that is free from Israeli influence, and the restoration of the 1967 borders. The withdrawal of all Israeli settlers from within Palestinian borders.

11

They can also currently stop protecting murderers in the west bank. So we don't have to ask how did a radical movement take power there a couple of years from now.

5
lemmy.ca

Dealing with this situation logically doesn't work, because it's not logic that got it started.

Both sides have majority support for essentially exterminating the other side.

Add to the fact that both sides are receiving massive external support in order for those external nations to wage a proxy war against each other, and it's just a shit show all around.

13
lemmy.ml

You’re right, logic didn’t start the current conflict. The British did when they disarmed Palestinians and armed and trained Zionist paramilitaries. This enabled the Zionists to forcibly evict hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in a brutal ethnic cleansing campaign. The pace at which Palestinians are being displaced has slowed but it has never stopped. While Palestinian resistance movements have received outside support it pales in comparison to the military support Israel receives from the US and other western countries. This conflict is unfortunately very one sided.

6
lemmy.ca

If you think Arabs and Jews fighting started with the British, you'd be a thousand years late to the party.

Changing the balance of the power did not start the conflict.

-3
lemmy.ml

Okay so you’re just going to ignore the hundreds of years of relative peace in the region under Ottoman rule immediately preceding WWI?

6
lemmy.ml

“Got control” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. You can’t just paper over British involvement and the hundreds of Palestinian villages that were destroyed in a mass ethnic cleansing campaign by Zionists. This was clearly a dramatic escalation in any religious or ethnic violence that occurred in the region as compared to years prior. You can’t just ignore that and expect anyone to think you’re discussing the issue in good faith.

Speaking of which, Palestine under Ottoman rule was more peaceful. The wiki articles you linked don’t even reference massacres happening in Palestine. So your point is moot.

3

Yes they do...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias

The British didn't start this shit. Not even close.

Who started it is moot though, neither side wants to peacefully end this so they're going to keep fighting.

You think that if the west stops supporting Israel that Hamas is just going to stop attacking? That's naïve as fuck. Hamas with Iran's support will just push into Israel and the table will just be tilted the other way instead.

2
lemmy.ml

Israel could stop being an apartheid state and stop illegally occupying Palestinian land and imprisoning millions of gazans and hamas would no longer be a political force. Because hamas is a violent reaction to colonial violence after nonviolent reactions failed for decades.

12

The plan is for there to eventually be no people left to become terrorists. It's not the stupidest plan, it has worked throughout history.

They are on the path of doing this, the more they kill, the more will join the resistance. New acts of resistance (terrorism) will be committed. Then they have an excuse to kill even more. Rinse and repeat, until genocide complete.

3

I find it sad that everyone expects something from Israel. Why does Israel have to handle this and not anyone else? Why hamas can't handle this? For example they could surrender to prevent any further suffering of their people.

2

Get a peace-keeping force made up of Iranians. If missiles are still being shot from Gaza after that, Israel can go to war with Iran and cut out the middle-man.

-1

I just prefer a more organic posting environment. Megathreads seem like a mod power-move to corral everyone into their threads and delete user posts.

3
lemmy.world

Because when they're arguing in mega threads, IDF propagandists can't 404 the post when you checkmate their bullshit. They can't be as unhinged as they'd like to be.

2

Megathreads are usually the justification for deleting other threads. So your theory is close, but just the opposite.

2

I like when people are as unhinged as they'd like to be. That's why I don't support theocracies, either.

-1

I'll just say it.

The state of Israel is basically the modern Nazi Germany.

I want Israel to exist, but not by genociding an entire ethnic group from the land. This is fucked up, and fuck anyone defending these actions.

4

December 1, 2023: Israeli air strikes pound Gaza as truce with Hamas ends

December 1, 2023: Israel strikes Gaza after truce expires

December 1, 2023: ‘Where to go?’ Palestinians say nowhere safe as Israel resumes Gaza bombing

December 1, 2023: Palestinians flee homes, dig in rubble as Israel resumes strikes on Gaza

December 1, 2023: Gaza aid trucks stranded as Israel-Hamas war resumes

December 1, 2023: ‘Bombing everywhere’: As Israel renews war, my eight-year-old has questions

December 2, 2023: ‘Hell on Earth’ in Gaza: Israel strikes hit Deir el-Balah

December 2, 2023: Photos: More deaths and destruction as Israel targets southern Gaza

December 3, 2023: Over 700 killed in last 24 hours as Israel intensifies strikes | December 3, 2023: From north to south, nowhere safe in Gaza as 700 killed in 24 hours

December 4, 2023: Khan Younis hospital stretched by influx of patients as Israel bombs Gaza

December 4, 2023: No end to suffering of Gaza children as Israeli attacks rage on

December 5, 2023: Searching for survivors after Israeli attack on central Gaza building

December 5, 2023: Israel intensifies strikes on Gaza’s second-largest city

December 6, 2023: Israeli raid kills 22 members of Al Jazeera correspondent’s family in Gaza

December 9, 2023: Photos: Israel bombs Gaza areas it declared safe zones for Palestinians

December 9, 2023: US skips congressional review for emergency sale of tank shells to Israel

December 10, 2023: Nearly 300 killed in Gaza in 24 hours as Hamas, Netanyahu trade threats

December 10, 2023: ‘A hand here, a head there’: Israeli warplanes kill dozens in central Gaza

December 24, 2023: Israeli strikes kill UN staff, more than 70 of his extended family in Gaza

December 25, 2023: ‘Massacre’ as Israel steps up Gaza bombardment for Christmas | December 25, 2023: Israel intensifies Gaza strikes, killing 250 Palestinians in 24 hours | December 25, 2023: Gaza’s Maghazi refugee camp in ruins after deadly Israeli attack

1

Hamas must be eliminated for the good of Israel and Gaza. Burying head into sand was already tried and failed

-2
lemmy.world

I highly recommend Beau of the Fifth Column for more informal news about the conflict. He only ever reports when something can be verified, and has a team helping him do research.

-3
JoeHillreply
lemmy.world

Never heard of this guy before your post. He is a YouTuber who may have done time for human smuggling? Why would he be a better reporter than the actual news orgs on the ground?

18

Yeah no shit.. what…?

“I get my news from some guy in a basement”

10

He's a secondary source that independently verifies facts. He has connections with people like Chelsea Manning and many other sources of information and knowledge. He is a part of several mutual aid groups that also provide him with information. He served in the military for 20 years. He's not just "a guy in a basement", that's a studio set made to look like his shed. He specializes in deprogramming MAGA conservatives by making his videos appear like a MAGA "news" source (as a consequence, finding a specific video from him is difficult)

4

He made a mistake a long time ago, served his time, and outside of his channel, is also heavily involved in disaster relief work, political advocacy for leftist causes, etc.

But, clearly you're someone who believes our justice system is too lax. Could probably use some scarlet letters, or even better, we can brand their foreheads with "FELON". That sound good to you?

2
lemmy.world

I like him, but it’s hard to trust a guy that uses 5 columns when you only need 4.

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Orbituaryreply
lemmy.world

It took me a looooong time to warm up to him and even understand his position on the world. I just didn't understand what his angle was... But then it sort of just happened.

He's a very intelligent dude with excellent views.

6
lemmy.world

Why was there a concert happening so close to the Gaza border, what organizer thought that was a good idea

-5
eramsethreply
lemmy.world

Are you victim blaming? I believe there was a cease fire agreement at the time. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

3

It's a genuine question. If I were to host such a festival... i would make sure to NOT keep it along the border with a state whose current rulers are HAMAS.

1
Skkormreply
lemmy.world

Nah fam, I'm talking practically speaking. If the state of Montana started threatening war with Alberta, do you think I'd plan a music festival in friggin Lethbridge?! Absolutely not, what a wild ass idea.

I mean shit, that concert was 5 km from Gaza, sitting between two Israeli military bases. wtf bro.

1

Not the same. Threat of war between Israel and Hamas has been a constant state of affairs for decades.

1

Yeah but seriously though and also it's not that long ago that the land the concert was on was part of Gaza / Palestine. Seriously the compression of the space over the last couple decades has been shocking. It's like hosting a concert in no man's land between North and South Korea.

I get it. It's cheap farmland now to people that are willing to get killed for cheap land to farm and sell to the cities and someone thought perfect cheap and out of the way to do designer drugs... I hate it. But it doesn't mean they should have died but it does make what happened stupid and tragic.

2