Petition: Defederate from exploding-heads.com
As far as I see that instance is a far-right cess pool. Everything I've got from that instance were low-quality transphobic "news articles".
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Comments255https://exploding-heads.com/Open linkView original on discuss.tchncs.de
And then it's usually the most low-IQ people you've ever seen. So even if you are a person with controversial opinions and would like to discuss them, you can't even do that properly.
E.g. imagine that you like cryptocoins, but see some kind of problem with them that you would like to argue about... Everything you get is an angry Mob with nonsense responses.
Any reason why you can't discuss crypto with people that aren't fascist symps?
Because everyone who isn't is smart enough to realise they're all scams.
Dang it's like Voat over there
Yes
Nazis aren't welcome here, best they learn that now rather than through a long process of being told by everyone else here to fuck off.
Telling Nazis to fuck off rarely leads to them actually fucking off, because they're Nazis.
If enough of the community makes it sufficiently clear that we're not going to let them peddle their Nazi bullshit unopposed, including by taking whatever moderator actions are possible to get rid of them, most of the Nazis will go somewhere else and we'll only have to deal with the typical number of Nazis for an internet platform rather than become inundated with them. Making them unwelcome by any means necessary is the name of the game.
then we will scrape them off our shoe as we always do with dog shit
If enough of the community makes it sufficiently clear that we're not going to let them peddle their Nazi bullshit unopposed, including by taking whatever moderator actions are possible to get rid of them, most of the Nazis will go somewhere else and we'll only have to deal with the typical number of Nazis for an internet platform rather than become inundated with them. Making them unwelcome by any means necessary is the name of the game.
I like how you make it sound like they're a type of vermin.
T-they are..
English is hard
What's your definition of a Nazi? A member of a national socialist party? I want to understand what is being banned before it's banned.
My criteria for what makes "a Nazi" are something like this.
A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept, that reproducing outside one's race is inherently wrong, and that some races are inherently superior to others; most often the superior groups are "white", while the "inferior" groups include Africans, Jews and travelling people
Reverence for cultural "tradition", real or imagined, with any departure from these traditions classified as "degenerate" and dangerous to society. For example, a belief that avant-garde art is immoral and without value because it doesn't root itself in what are popularly perceived to be the artistic traditions of "the west", a neat line from Greek marble statues to Wagner.
Hatred of diversity, seeing it as a plague that rots a society. For example, the belief that women are unfit to hold a social position outside of motherhood, that non-heterosexual sexualities are "degenerate", that allowing people from another race to exist in your race's society inevitably leads to that society's destruction, that gender as a concept is a "mental illness" because only two biological sexes exist and each biological sex has a set-in-stone role demanding a certain presentation and certain values, that societies which follow one religion must not allow followers of another religion to exist within it.
Heavy use of absolutism. Everything is either wholly good or wholly bad. Nothing can be a mix of good and bad, or neutral. And everything is a matter of utmost urgency. Anything that is "bad" is an existential threat to all that is "good" and must be immediately and utterly annihilated.
An authoritarian outlook. Anything opposed by a Nazi must be forbidden by the full force of the law. There is no space for differences of opinion, or a nuanced debate, or reviewing the facts. If they oppose something, whether it's big or small - the use of marijuana, reformative justice programs, abortion, media with female protagonists - it must be banned under pain of death.
Violence. To a Nazi, the use of violence isn't an escalation, but the norm. They have no qualms about beating people to death simply for espousing an opposing view, or even just for existing if some aspect of their existence offends their beliefs. Likewise, their rhetoric often alludes to the indiscriminate or nonchalant, even gleeful use of deadly force - "physical removal", "showers", etc.
Shameless hypocrisy. The people who say "facts not feelings" as a rebuttal are often the same people whose beliefs are motivated almost entirely by feelings, and will happily mock others for trying to use evidence in their arguments instead of simply saying "it's common sense". They will shame someone for being rude and aggressive while also calling them the N word and telling them that on "the day of the rope", they'll be among the dead.
Veneration of strong leaders and mocking of "weakness". Consensus-builders are seen as spineless "cucks", while people who enforce their every arbitrary whim with total force are held up as "based" exemplars of good leadership and models to be emulated. People who are comfortably being themselves in ways that aren't conventionally masculine are addressed with slurs and told to kill themselves while ignorant, bullying asshats are applauded for "rustling jimmies".
You can meet all of these criteria without being a member of a National-Socialist party, or even identifying as a Nazi, but if you do meet most or all of them, your ideology can be pretty confidently described as Nazi-like.
By the way, cheers to you for actually answering the question. I've seen "BAN NAZIS" before, but I haven't really understood what the requestors are looking to ban, and when questioned they seem to disappear quickly.
This seems pretty well thought out.
I'm a little confused by: "A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept". If I was born in Spain and my whole family has lived there for centuries, am I not Spanish / a Spaniard?
I'd agree that saying things like "all Spaniards are terrible at math" is racist, but I don't see how one's race is mutable in this fashion.
Spanish would be a good description of your ethnic background in that situation, but there are quite a number of ethnic identities within Spain as well - the Basque, Galicians and Catalans, just to name a few. "Spanish" isn't a racial monolith. There would be plenty of people whose ethnic background looks quite different to yours but who are no less Spanish.
What I mean in that statement is that Nazis believe that "race" - as in "Germanic", "Hispanic", "Black" (they tend to lump all sub-Saharan Africans together), "Middle Eastern" - is a useful way of classifying people, and that substantial differences in things like intelligence and physiology between humans are primarily the result of these categorisations.
But none of that is mutable, is it?
Your DNA isn't going to change, but those ethnic groups are transient things rather than an inherent feature of reality. An ethnic group is ultimately a relative thing. Some "African-American" people might be genetically closer to the African people from whom their ancestors came than the other ethnic groups living in America, but they're not simply "African" - they are a separate diaspora. Those ethnic groups change their makeups over time.
It's not like, say, elements. 1,000 years from now, the average genetic makeup of any given ethnic group will be observably different from how it is today, but a Hydrogen atom will still be defined in exactly the same way as now. Nazis believe that races are a concrete, reified structure that doesn't shift over time - it is a "pure" and "natural" state that becomes degraded and diluted by what they term miscegenation, rather than a fuzzy construct that changes over time.
Let's say you were born in Spain and your whole family has lived there for centuries, but your family are black - say, some of your ancestors arrived from North Africa long ago. I would still call you Spanish, but a Nazi would call you African (or more likely some kind of slur). They care about the colour of your skin more than your actual background. Likewise, no matter how many generations your family has lived in a country or how well they pass, Nazis assert that if any of your ancestors was a Jew, you are also a Jew, and that as a Jew, you are inherently inferior to non-Jews and consequently a racial contaminant.
I wonder how anyone stereotyping individuals based on far-distant ancestors square up these beliefs with hominid evolution. I guess the answer is "they don't".
Just adding to this, following this same supposedly biological argument that advocates for a natural and morally correct path for the furthering of genetic lineages, Nazis persecuted homosexuality, bisexuality and trans people as a national policy, shutting down sexology research institutes, literally burning years of scientific advancements, and revoking official acknowledgements the Weimar Republic granted transgender people. It's often forgotten, but the inherent homophobia, biphobia and transphobia of neonazis and adjacent movements is not a recent development at all: https://www.advocate.com/news/holocaust-lgbtq-victims-german-parliament
They may be talking about ethnicity vs race? Google says in basic terms, race describes physical traits, and ethnicity refers to cultural identification. Race may also be identified as something you inherit, whereas ethnicity is something you learn.
So ethnicity is certainly mutable
My criteria for what makes "a Nazi" are something like this.
A belief that race is an immutable genetic concept, that reproducing outside one's race is inherently wrong, and that some races are inherently superior to others; most often the superior groups are "white", while the "inferior" groups include Africans, Jews and travelling people
Reverence for cultural "tradition", real or imagined, with any departure from these traditions classified as "degenerate" and dangerous to society. For example, a belief that avant-garde art is immoral and without value because it doesn't root itself in what are popularly perceived to be the artistic traditions of "the west", a neat line from Greek marble statues to Wagner.
Hatred of diversity, seeing it as a plague that rots a society. For example, the belief that women are unfit to hold a social position outside of motherhood, that non-heterosexual sexualities are "degenerate", that allowing people from another race to exist in your race's society inevitably leads to that society's destruction, that gender as a concept is a "mental illness" because only two biological sexes exist and each biological sex has a set-in-stone role demanding a certain presentation and certain values, that societies which follow one religion must not allow followers of another religion to exist within it.
Heavy use of absolutism. Everything is either wholly good or wholly bad. Nothing can be a mix of good and bad, or neutral. And everything is a matter of utmost urgency. Anything that is "bad" is an existential threat to all that is "good" and must be immediately and utterly annihilated.
An authoritarian outlook. Anything opposed by a Nazi must be forbidden by the full force of the law. There is no space for differences of opinion, or a nuanced debate, or reviewing the facts. If they oppose something, whether it's big or small - the use of marijuana, reformative justice programs, abortion, media with female protagonists - it must be banned under pain of death.
Violence. To a Nazi, the use of violence isn't an escalation, but the norm. They have no qualms about beating people to death simply for espousing an opposing view, or even just for existing if some aspect of their existence offends their beliefs. Likewise, their rhetoric often alludes to the indiscriminate or nonchalant, even gleeful use of deadly force - "physical removal", "showers", etc.
Shameless hypocrisy. The people who say "facts not feelings" as a rebuttal are often the same people whose beliefs are motivated almost entirely by feelings, and will happily mock others for trying to use evidence in their arguments instead of simply saying "it's common sense". They will shame someone for being rude and aggressive while also calling them the N word and telling them that on "the day of the rope", they'll be among the dead.
Veneration of strong leaders and mocking of "weakness". Consensus-builders are seen as spineless "cucks", while people who enforce their every arbitrary whim with total force are held up as "based" exemplars of good leadership and models to be emulated. People who are comfortably being themselves in ways that aren't conventionally masculine are addressed with slurs and told to kill themselves while ignorant, bullying asshats are applauded for "rustling jimmies".
You can all of these criteria without being a member of a National-Socialist party, or even identifying as a Nazi, but if you do meet most or all of them, your ideology can be pretty confidently described as Nazi-like.
But I thought a nazi was anyone I disagreed with.
Man, being thoughtful and specific seems like a lot of work.
Yeah well it's really much easier to call someone a Nazi as an umbrella term for such indivuals rather than some scientific term no one really understands. It's kinda actually taking from the playbook they use themselves: associate something with a negative connotation.
Let me guess. Trump and people who like him are Nazis to you?
No. Trump isn’t really an ideologue. He’s just a grifter.
But trump publicly during a debate told a Christian nationalist terrorist organization convicted of insurrection to “stand by and stand back” as if he commands them, and as if they work on his behalf.
I have zero love for Trump or his dick riders. I'm just annoyed when every time somebody posts something about "Nazis" it ends up being about idiot Trumpers so we just dilute the word to mean somebody we think is mean or has the wrong opinions.
I think it’s obvious when people say “nazis” they’re being lazy and saying fascist, bigoted, ultra nationalist, transphobic, Christian zealot-ed, islamophobic, chauvinistic, etc.
On the internet with short posts people don’t feel like typing that all out. So no, they’re not all literal nazis. But they’re very nazi adjacent. And the online communities are even more open about it than Trump is.
If you’d prefer I can go point by point I how trump and his platform are all those things. Just let me know. It would be pretty easy, but I think it’s obvious when you look at each aspect individually.
Edit:
Fascist: marching on the capitol to prevent the certification of a democratic vote. Literal insurrectionist. Convicted of sedition. Just like Mussolini Marcia su Roma.
Ultra nationalist: I mean I don’t feel like I need to do this one. It’s his entire platform. They’re not afraid to admit this.
Bigoted: Mexicans are rapists. Massive blue lives matter movement right after a very public murder by the police. The Central Park 5. Trump losing civil cases where he avoided renting to selling homes to black people. Promoting the idea, baselessly, that Obama, the first black president, is disqualified because he’s not American enough. That’s he’s a Muslim African born foreigner.
Transphobic: pretty much every red state has passed anti trans laws. They’re calling trans people pedophiles on Fox News. DeSantis entire platform (which Trumpers overwhelmingly support) is based on anti trans policy.
Christian zealotry: passing laws based on the Bible. Anti abortion laws passed in states literally citing the Bible. gay marriage opposition based on the Bible. Open call for declaring the US a Christian nation, and teaching Christianity in schools. Having prayer in schools.
Islamophobia: banning Muslims from entering the country. Using terrorism as an excuse, when every single politically motivated murder in the US last year was committed by right wing perpetrators. Birthirism.
Sexism/Chauvinism: that’s the proud boys stated ethos. Trump is extremely open about this in how he speaks. How he constantly calls non white states shitholes, how he always criticizes women for their looks etc. Trump being found liable of sexual assault. Trump constantly attacking the victims. Openly bragging on tape about sexual assault.
The thing is, every thing I can say about trump personally on this, the online communities are 10x more open about it.
Trump has the politics that gets him the most personal benefit. I think everything he does follows from that, and being an actual boomer.
That doesn’t disqualify him and his base from being called nazi like. People aren’t calling him a nazi like because of what happened in WWII. They’re calling him nazi like for how he’s similar to how Hitler behaved when he was coming to power. The rise of Hitler and Mussolini has a lot of similarities to how trump behaves now. But his online fringer base, like the one we are discussing, is even more similar.
I find it interesting that in a thread entirely about Nazis, and nothing but Nazis, you heard Trump.
Make of that what you will
Because the instance being discussed is basically TheDonald and related ideologies. Because you all don't seem to understand what reality is.
Not necessarily, but he and people who like him are dumbasses that (at the very least) enable Nazis. To be fair, it doesn’t matter what you call them. Instead of Nazis you could say Troglodytes and everyone would know who you talk about, them included.
Only just got a notification from this, but anyway, I gave my definition for what I consider "a Nazi" here. Make of it what you will.
After a while of thinking and reviewing, I have come to the conclusion to defederate as requested. If they correct course, I'll happily re-review them.
Thank you
Bigotry should be banned, and removed from this instance. That means not allowing bigotry on our instance. That means defederating from less clever wannabe 4chans, and less moderated The_D replacements.
They can enjoy their shithole federation.
Honestly 4chan is much better than some of these instances.
Yes, defederate these chuds. Keep them isolated! Don't let them make this space into a Nazi bar.
good gawd I just checked out their front page, (puke noise) Hunter Derangement syndrome is real for those chuds
"Hunter's laptop! Hunter's laptop!"
Normal people: "Who? Oh that guy. Who cares?"
"Buttery malez? Ben Gazi?"
Yet they dont care at all whats on Matt Gatez laptop, or Jareds... what massive tools they are for falling for this utter bs.
I am trying to examen the instance, it would have been helpful to have some pointers to speed up the process although it somehow sounds like a familiar domain. It sounds like such content at least was against their rules. but that of course does not have to mean much.
Looking at the comments from their team is no good impression to say the least hmm
Update: found some more potential evidence that they are not welcoming nazis, but i think there are quite a few misinformation and "the usual" shitpost things on there that are not very ... enjoyable (and of course as the op implies, transphobic trash and such as to expect from a shitpost instance).
There is the Lemmy.world Admin Response to Defederation from Exploding Heads with some pointers.
thanks
casually scrolling through their local top posts tells me they pass the duck test on being toxic pieces of shit, so I say let them fester in it by themselves
I will be ok with whatever you choose, whether that is staying federated, starting a conversation with their admins and withholding judgement until after that, defederating, or something else.
Personally, I'm not a fan of those things you have found (transphobia, misinfo, etc.), but I understand that people like that exist. I at least can block them and the communities that spout that trash.
It's your instance, your hardware, and I trust your judgement.
Lmao, their rules:
and yet almost every single comment I read is calling everyone pussies, toxic, and racist words.
Whats the point in having those rules when literally NO ONE is following or enforcing them? Damn.
It would be unfair for me to take place in the vote (Hi from Kbin.social).
Here's the current list of the instances (currently 92) that have defederated(block) EH.
https://fba.ryona.agency/?domain=exploding-heads.com
hahaha I suspected as much, when will these dbags learn??
https://fba.ryona.agency/?domain=truthsocial.com
Hm, thanks for the site.
Looks like this is really a right wing/fake/hate news instance. No love is lost defederating them.
So: Yes, please!
Thanks to federation this post is visible on a wide variety of instances. Which specific instance are you petitioning to defederate from exploding heads? You're from discuss.tchncs.de so I assume that one?
The community they posted this in should be hint enough...
It's a hint, sure. I'm suggesting they should have been explicit rather than relying on hints. People can miss hints.
I called it a hint, but it's rather obvious, in-your-face information. When you open a post it shows you the Community in at least 3 different spots. It's nobody else's fault that that's not enough for you.
You're making the same not-necessarily-true assumption that OP is making.
In Kbin, which I am using to view this instead of Lemmy, it shows it in two places that are both well disconnected from the content of the post itself. There are a bunch of different 3rd party apps being developed for both Kbin and Lemmy right now with various UIs, I haven't viewed this in any of them yet. I also haven't viewed it in Mastodon, which I'm told can be used to view Lemmy and Kbin threads. There are innumerable different possible UIs out there in the Fediverse.
And even then, it's still possible in this case for OP to have been discussing petitioning everyone to defederate from exploding-heads. That's a reasonable alternate interpretation and I can't read OP's mind, only what they wrote.
What I'm suggesting is that we should keep in mind that the only thing that people are guaranteed to see about a post is the actual post, there's no way of knowing what the surrounding context is going to be. The place you're posting it is not the only place it will be seen.
Not OP's fault either if the part of the Fediverse you're in doesn't even display the community.
There are many apps and interfaces by now. I only see the community name linked once in liftoff. It was still immediately obvious to me though.
If they are calling for a defederation they surely wouldn't mind if their call carried to other instances to follow suit, not just their own
Probably any instance with common decency/desire to be good people.
The post is to the [email protected] community, which is for discussing discuss.tchncs.de
It appeared on kbin.social's "all" feed.
Perhaps it would be a good feature to be able to flag a community as "local only" to prevent it from federating at all, for this kind of thing.
I think it's good to see what other instances are discussing about even if thye inky affect their own instance. It shows which instance this is posted on so it's clear it's not applicable to say lemmy.world but I want to see if other instances have had to take a stand against certain instances so I can avoid them until degenerated by say, my instance or if I need to move instances to enjoy that defederation.
Yes, defederate
Man they are really pissy about this choice too, a post with "fuck lemmy world" talking about some Biden Pedo post not being that bad yada yada is pinned to exploding heads.
Let's hope that, unlike Reddit, these subreddits can't be shut down. You can see for yourself what happened after Reddit shutdown r/WatchPeopleDie NSFL videos spilt out to "normal" subreddits, and it made life hell, especially since cunts won't use the NSFW tag until hours after. Give them their little corner so they can fucking stay there.
I don't love this idea, would really prefer instead the ability to block the instance in the same way I do communities/magazines and see a petition for them to be auto-blocked which I could then remove if I wanted.
Really don't like the idea of defederation unless there's like active crime going on there.
Part of the reason we left reddit is because they felt entitled to impose draconian conditions on moderators. Defederating is a useful moderation tool until the Threadiverse develops better ones.
If someone is willing to ignore the social norm of wider society's "Don't say the n-word" why would they respect the social rules of a small community?
Same, for me canceling culture and defederating left and right is not the right way to go.
Have you even looked that some of the posts in their homepage Ffs? Defederation should be a thing when the whole instance is a piece of shit. Which it is in this case...
I'm all for having arguments with reasonable people I disagree with, but let's be real here. That's not what happens with far right trolls. Their goal is to be incoherent and exhausting to deal with. They don't care about exchanging ideas. They want to make you waste your time and feel hopeless. Don't give them the chance. Just defederate.
The instance I'm on already has. Feels good, man.
Who chooses what gets federated/defederated?
The administrators of a particular instance decide who they federate with. Of course, that only affects users on their instance.
Ho this explain why I can't answer anymore. I was debating a shitty opinion.
Damn. I hadn't actually seen the exploding-heads community, but I went over to read their rules (seems fine) and posts (yikes). I am surprised that their rules even say what they do, as most of the comments in most of the posts I read would be breaking them.
This post by one of their two admins explains what kind of instance they are.
Here is the tldr:
HTH people decide if they want to stay federated.
Just block their domain in your instance.
How? I can only block communities, but not a whole instance.
Follow this link. On the right hand side you will see a box that says "domain" and beneath that "exploding-heads.com" underneath that there is a box with a link to subscribe and a symbol to block. Click on the symbol to block.
Moderation has not caught up with kbin's growth, despite the devs being very busy. Maybe it's best just to block for now. I'm sure that kbin will take out the trash once moderation tools and mod teams are in place.
On edit: These instructions won't work for you, because as @vaguerant pointed out, you are not on a kbin server. However, I'm going to leave the comment up for any kbin users who might want to block that instance.
You're talking to someone from tchncs.de, a Lemmy server. These kbin instructions won't suit their purposes.
D'oh! I thought I saw kbin.social when I moused over their username. Obviously, I was mistaken. Thanks for the heads-up!
Ty for the insight. Growing pains 😩
Cheers for the refresher, forgot that on kbin we have a block button for that. It's a good stopgap measure in the short term if people don't want to see these types of communities
Why should I subject others to trash? It's selfish and not even self-serving since that filth drives like-minded folks away making this space smaller.
I simply don't want far-right to spread where I hang. Keep it to yourself.
The beautiful thing about federated instances is that you can block whole domains from sources you don't like. If people are leftist they can block righty's and righty's can block leftist domains. Federation is beatiful
Yeah and instances can too and I want to support a space that moderates and directs stuff to the right direction on behalf of me. Beautiful.
If you really don't like it..create a new instance and only federate what you want.
Hey, likewise!
I asked this another day. It will allow them to spread their nazi bs to new people who aren’t aware, which can become especially dangerous because they rhetoric will be unseen and unchecked by those who blocked them.
Personally I think that’s a good enough justification for defederating vs blocking. They are outright nazis after all, idk if we really need to wring our hands over it.
I am against defederations being decided by instance admins. Lemmy needs (kbin being more mature project at least has domain blocking) tools to let users decide themselves what they want or don't want to see. Are you an adult or you need others to decide for you? I have blocked lemmygrad and other tankie/nazi (same shit) instances (domains) myself. If I don't want to see eg. transgender stuff then I don't cry about it but just block it. Grow a pair and do the same.
While I disagree with your opinion on admins, I appreciate the sentiment. But if you want to be on an instance that isn't defederated or view any content, run you own instance.
That said, the ability for users to moderate the content they see on their own profile could definitely use more flexibility. The ability to block communities as a user is good, but they should absolutely also be able to block instances on their own. Beyond that, the ability to filter out content based on keywords (title, content, urls) would also be a nice addition.
Coming from RiF on Android, the app had filtering and let me say, being able to block Elon, Kanye, Meta, TikTok, a bunch of shit spewing fascists, etc made my Reddit viewing experience much better. This was, of course, after already leaving all of the default subs and finding niche communities but for some reason people had a hard-on for those topics and I could literally not care any less about them.
Liftoff has filters
I don't mind filtering out things I don't like, if it's a me-problem. If I find my feed has too many "lOoK aT mY nEw BoOmStIcK" posts from gun-toting idiots, I'll block them. I may find gun ownership unnecessary in a civilised society and the cult around it stupid, but 'murica is arguably father from civilisation than I'm used to and they're well within their rights. So that's on me.
Nazis, however, I consider a we-problem. It's our collective duty as society to make it clear to those dimwits, that there is no room in civilisation for their backward mindset and they can either adapt or get lost. If they can't play by society's rules then they can't play at all.
So instances that are "just a little" or "not excessively" racist/fascist/intolerant should be defederated just like the all-out ones.
so did I
didn't see that yet but at least some user with a name in that direction.
Anyway, I found it quite not amusing to see this stuff on my second day of using Lemmy - which was 2 weeks ago or so. Honestly, I've seen enough online communities degenerate and having a few power users/enthusiasts who like fine tuning every setting is not enough to get a healthy community going.
I think if Lemmy doesn't get it's shit together in that regard, it'll be like Mastodon where there are alt-right communities powered by it and then another normal (or whatever you want to call it?) part. However I've been quite surprised when my first subscriber was some alt-right dude. That was enough for me to delete my account.
At the moment I see chances 50/50 that Lemmy can make it. But this highly depends on:
On Lemmy you can't. Feel invited to kbin.
AFAIK you can't collapse comments on kbin, which is the main reason I stuck with a lemmy instance.
dont worry, it will eventually arrive on kbin as well^^ lemmy is under heavy development. such features will become a thing someday, i am sure. :)
Just turn of nsfw posts in the settings
Why vote? Isn't that the decision for the instance admins to make? (And also their job?)
Just ping them and also flag offending posts.
So the admins can make a better decision by knowing what their community thinks.
I mean they own the hardware and they're not being paid. It's gracious of any admin if they ask people's opinions. They run their servers because they do it as a hobby and enjoy it. What they believe is what is law on their property. If you Don't agree you can move, that's why it's great. Start your own! And if the hardware changes hands it will mean rules may change. It's not a bad thing, I means people are free to run their instance as they believe fit.
Just directly write them a message. I don't think it needs a vote by the majority of the community to exclude some right wing crypto bros who like transphobia etc
Also if you focus your energy here instead of notifying an admin, they might not read it and you kinda did the opposite of what you intended. Focus your energy here only if the admins and moderation don't do their job properly.
That's how admins of reddit shut down third party apps without asking users
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Read up. Then punch a nazi. Don't need that shit anywhere in society.
Slight tangent: It's been a recurring post on tumblr and mastodon that the Paradox of Tolerance is resolved when you consider tolerance to be a social contract rather than a moral standard. In that case, if someone does not uphold their end of the contract than the contract doesn't apply to them.
If you do not tolerate me, I do not have to tolerate you.
As Nazism is based on intolerance of other views, there is no requirement for tolerating Naziism.
The same applies to terfism. "Trans-EXCLUSIONARY radical feminism" is the acronym, it is a philosophy based on not tolerating trans people, and therefore there is no need to tolerate them.
Contrast to say, furries, who are weird but who are defined by their enthusiasm for something rather than an exclusion of other interests. Furries, as a group are covered under the tolerance social contract.
While it's crucial to oppose harmful ideologies like Nazism, we must be wary of how we define such harmful groups. If we broaden these definitions arbitrarily, we risk encapsulating people who merely differ politically, diluting the term's significance and unjustifiably alienating individuals. In doing so, we inadvertently shrink our own communities, polarizing society to the extent where a moderate viewpoint might be mistaken for extremism. Right-leaning communities fall into this trap as well, resulting in fragmented realities where each group exists in its own echo chamber. This division deepens societal fissures and undermines moderate views, which, in my belief, are grounded in reality and thus instrumental in achieving balanced discourse.
Soooooo here's a helpful hint to tamp down that utter confusion you seem to be having:
The guys who want armed guard genital inspectors in front of every bathroom are the bad guys.
Right, they never stated otherwise, but transphobic measures doesn't necessarily make one a nazi. It makes you awful but there are different kinds of awful than just nazism. The risk of calling everyone a nazi is that you dilute what the word actually means so that you risk generalizing and uniting the awful people instead of separating them based on their various horrendous opinions.
Lemmy.world has already defederated from them. They're not just transphobic, the admins of exploding heads are also virulently racist.
https://lemmy.world/post/747912
So while transphobic measures don't make someone a nazi, exploding heads absolutely is a far right shithole.
Please explain how they differ?
Edit (2): TL;DR (and the first thought I had which then escaped me when I went to type my original reply but has now returned): The Venn diagram of Nazis and transphobes has massive overlap, but even those that don't fit in both are bad and harmful in their own right, so who are you really defending here?
And before you try
"Nazism wasn't about transphobia":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft#Nazi_era
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/
or
"Transphobes today have nothing to do with Nazism":
https://zeefeed.com.au/anti-trans-feminism-nazi-ideology/
https://socialism.com/fso-article/posie-parker-in-australia-terfs-nazis-and-the-fight-for-trans-liberation/
Edit (1) because sent too soon:
Not wanting to admit it to themselves and/or being wilfully ignorant in defence of their cognitive dissonance, nor you personally not liking it, doesn't make transphobes any less supporters of what is without a doubt a Nazi (if not Nazi inspired, which doesn't make it better) ideology, attitude, and behaviour.
Nazis, they are defending Nazis and want to pretend they are not.
And on a completely unrelated note - I was only able to see your reply by going to your profile overview (love the render btw!), OP seems to have vanished, even under the comments tab on each of our profiles the ones made here are gone. Is this what happens here when a post gets removed?
E:never mind, that's my confusion.
That's why when you ask them to clarify they go quiet, because they know that means saying the quiet part out loud because, as you say, there is only one conclusion.
True but neither ideology deserves a spot at the table of civilized discourse. So it's a bit of a moot point.
It's not a moot point when we consider the fluidity of language and the potential for any group to manipulate terms to suit their interests. If someone can blanket-label their opposition as a 'transphobe' or, more extreme, a 'Nazi', it bypasses meaningful debate and eradicates the chance to understand differing viewpoints. This not only oversimplifies complex discussions, but it also fosters a lazy and destructive discourse that can fuel animosity rather than understanding. We need to be challenged. A tree that grows without wind will not have the strength to stand in a storm.
Yeah but that's not what is happening here. These guys are literally transphobes. I understand your concern but bringing it up here is providing cover for these guys.
Imagine using the ammo of "complexity" and the subjectivity of language to defend wholly unsubtle people who explicity want others harassed/harmed/dead for being their authentic selves and that authenticity has absolutely NOTHIGN to do with them personally
What people don't get is that when someone is called a Nazi, it doesn't necessarily mean that they literally identify completely with Nazi ideology.
Rather it is about the pattern of behavior that is equivalent to the Nazi pattern of behavior.
For that to be true, people do not need to, for example, hate and want to kill Jews. "Jews" could be replaced by anything else, for example trans people, and it's still valid to call them a Nazi.
If one does not want to be called a Nazi, maybe don't try to get rid of a group of people that haven't done anything bad.
Not to mention the Historical Nazis' hatred of LGBTQ+ people
The vast majority of people screaming about bathrooms in the US are in fact Nazis or nazi adjacent.
There is NO reason to dump that much hate on like two or three people per state unless you just enjoy the cruelty.
That's just ridiculous. Not all bad things are the same thing.
Uh, no, a lot of the people screaming about this are those on the far-right, who literately share memes with holocaust denial, wear swastikas, go to Neo-nazi rallies, etc. This is well known to hate watch groups, so this is not an exaggeration. We are literately talking about Nazi supporters, not just saying they are 'like nazis'.
Would love to be an armed boob inspector
Finally my FBI hat from middle school can get some use.
Who exactly holds the authority to label 'the bad guys'? Sure, some actions are undeniably harmful, but does that warrant placing all perceived wrongdoers in the same category, from internet trolls to murderers? Is there no nuance or room for varying degrees of transgressions? I hope you can ask yourself if you're always on the side of righteousness, or might you be perceived as 'the bad guy" from another perspective? It's important to understand that the world is not simply binary, and such a mindset can dangerously oversimplify complex issues.
People who don't get their rocks off by investing more effort into hating the marginalized.
This isn't about me and this isn't about subtlety. On the whole LGBT+haters are nazi adjacent and they get a kick out of hating the marginalized, and they do it VERY LOUDLY.
Like literally it's the AMERICA FIRST!ers here that are now specifically hating on like the two or three trans people in each state who play sports, and like the maybe handful of total trans people in each state in comparison to state population.
Sounds to me like you group everyone who has an even remotely different viewpoint than you in to one category so you can easily hate and discredit them all without ever actually thinking critically.
You're just bringing up ideas you don't like and then creating a strawman character that you can hate. You know they think the same way about you right? Do you not see how this leads to misinformation and unnecessary hatred? Solving nothing and creating even more division is not something I will stand behind.
What you are suggesting is that we, as a society, are incapable of discerning right from wrong and enforcing societal norms at all ever. Because who knows? Who has the power to determine these things?? hand wringing, pearl clutching
Let me tell you who: Anyone with two brain cells and a heart. Fascism has a clear definition. People who are being called Nazis because they openly hate and advocate for the genocide of trans people are being called Nazis because THEY ARE ACTING LIKE NAZIS.
We absolutely have no obligation to air their bigoted, make believe grievances in public. We have every right to shut them down and shut them up to protect vulnerable minority populations.
Stop JAQing off and pretending otherwise.
Nazis exist, and they are abhorrent. But is it fair to label the entire community of exploding-heads as such? Or, is it that the platform tolerates a broader range of discourse than you are comfortable with? Yes, Nazis may be part of the mix, but so too might be their staunch opponents. Assigning people to preconceived boxes based on assumed beliefs isn't conducive to understanding. While we concur on opposing Nazis, I refuse to disregard an entire group's perspectives because I may disagree with some. It's crucial to engage with opposing views for a balanced discourse, a principle applicable to everyone.
It is NOT crucial to engage in any kind of discourse with fascists who advocate genocide (aka Nazis)
And you know what you have if a "normal" person sits down to dinner with 10 Nazis? You have 11 Nazis.
There is no room for tolerance of Nazis, nor of those who coddle and enable Nazis.
So yes. It's fair.
Realistically, whoever is the admin of the instance can decide to block another instance for any reason, or no reason at all. Admins of threadiverse sites are maintaining (and owning) these instances as a hobby. If they decide they don't want to look at content about penguins during their leisure time, they can just ... block them.
Since threadiverse is a bit less mature than the mastodon ecosystem, there aren't any "big" democratically owned and managed instances, so most people are stuck with benevolent dictator for life situations.
Edit: Also, if an admin doesn't want penguin content stored on their servers (which they pay for), it's a bit strange to say they must store content they don't like on what is essentially their personal machine.
Paradox of Tolerance in action, right here.
LMAO, this post got downvoted, this fucking place. It's going to fail because of shit like this.
I feel like our definitions of success and failure are wildly different.
You're not entirely wrong, but when we are actually talking about actual literal self-declared fascists who are obviously talking and acting fascistic, then it definitely does apply. This is a long way past any sort of grey area, dude!
This is where the need for nuance comes in. If we were dealing with a platform overrun by advocates for genocide, then defederation would be a reasonable step. But the lack of nuance creates an issue. If any perspective slightly outside your tolerance threshold is immediately labeled as Nazi, where do we draw the line? At what point on the right or the left spectrum does a viewpoint become unacceptable? The challenge lies in defining these boundaries and promoting dialogue without promoting hate.
I really wish it was socially acceptable to punch a Nazi. Cops don't like that, so I don't do it.
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They really should make an exception to the law for punching Nazis
The issue with some instances is that most if not all communites / magazines are awful.
The best solution would be if Lemmy would let Users block whole instances, and Server Admins could create a default block list that users can still edit for themselves. And Community Admins should be able to block members from certain instances from participating.
A lot of free speech arguments falter in situations like these, imo, since they are predicated on the speech involved being genuine feelings/ideas/emotions. Troll groups like explodingheads and /r/the_donald are/were less about exchanging ideas and more about inflicting ideas on others. When the_donald was isolated, their community essentially started to die because there wasn't much genuine interest in discussing politics - their only interest was in 'redpilling normies'.
Ugh. Time to post that always relevant Sartre quote again. I hate that it's still relevant almost 80 years later:
The entire concept of democracy has a core concept of everyone working together for the common good.
Which doesn't work when one side of the spectrum is trying to burn everything down for short term profit and power madness.
I think it's really dangerous to dismiss the speech they spread as not their genuine feelings/ideas/emotions, because even if the troll doesn't believe it personally, by spreading it anyway, they are absolutely bolstering those who do, and there are many.
You have to look at where these ideas are born from and who benefits from them, not pretend no one actually holds them because that's demonstrably not true.
I should refine what I said. I think they genuinely believe many of the things they espouse, but (1) they espouse many things they don't believe in an effort to bring in outsiders with less harsh ideas before acclimating them to the intensity ("I'm as gay and liberal as they come, but even I can see how the trans movement has become largely exclusionary and radical") and (2) this is more about what the purpose of the community is, rather than the individuals. The individuals that are trolls can just be blocked, even if it becomes tedious when they grab new accounts. The community itself has a purpose, however, and that purpose can be either focused "internally" (members are discussing things amongst themselves) or "externally" (members largely discuss how to affect other communities). I think worries about freedom of speech or the silencing of honestly held (and expressed) beliefs are largely worried about the former (which may be more earnest), but a lot of the toxic communities are the latter, where there is very little that is expressed in earnest on the platform, because earnest conversations aren't the purpose of the community. They're little more than staging grounds on a given platform to try and either recruit outsiders or annoy their political opponents. I think this last aspect is the worst part, since communities like the_donald only really shared a communal love of annoying 'the libs' or left wing ideas in general, and the only purpose of the community was to be shitty.
I agree with you there (especially on that last point - they literally come looking for us so they can bully us then claim victim. every. fucking. time.) and appreciate the clarification, I think this kind of nuance is important to get in to especially when there seems to be a rise in bad faith users in these discussions (and those who are perhaps on the fence, who they target with their playing down of the hate).
Some people, like Elon Musk, want us to believe that social networks are a "digital town square", but imo that's a pretty poor metaphor. Social networks are more similar to "digital pubs". They are places where you go to meet, chat and share with your people. Of course it is a public place, and anyone can listen to your conversations, and in principle, even join. But social networks, as pubs, and as any other human interaction, are governed by (mostly unwritten) social contracts, codes of conduct and etiquette. You are not supposed to join a conversation uninvited, and if you are invited, you are supposed to treat the others with respect.
However, these groups systematically and purposely violate the social contracts, they hijack spaces and conversation where they were not invited and insult, harass and harm anyone who doesn't think like them or simply if they find it funny. They are the drunkards that instigate bar fights. And as in real life, the owners don't want disruptive elements in their pubs.
At this point, the Internet is 40 years old, and mass-adoption happened more than 20 years ago. Most of us have been part of many communities before lemmy and/or kbin. And the disruptive elements are always the same. There are many groups of people with different opinions on religion, social issues, economical policies, etc, and yet only the far-right insists on the on-line persecution of their opponents. And their strategy works as long as the apologist support them.
This isn't a matter of echo chambers. You can hear many different voices on lemmy/kbin. The only requirement to have you voice heard is basic respect, and that is something that the far-right refuses to do.
Then move to another instance. That's the beauty of the fediverse. I left that bullshit behind on Reddit, I'll be damned if it follows me out here.
Oh no! Guess I'll just have to figure out why that matters or why you think I would care.
Citation needed
No. Let people make up their own minds .. like adults. This is not 5th grade so don't treat us like it is.
Having a discussion to form an opinion in the community is a very democratic and adult thing. This helps everyone to make up their own mind and share their opinion. In the end I believe it is very important to defederate instances that cater to conspiracy theories and spread misinformation. The reach of such content in the fediverse must be limited and it is a statement by the community that forms culture.
Thrn you don't think it's important to have a discussion. You can't think that and also be pro censoring discussionns and ideas. You can't have it both ways
I would totally agree with you if the general populace weren't as easily influenced by misinformation and indoctrination as, in fact, 5th graders.
Like, there's really nothing for anyone to make up their minds about. Don't give these people a home here; they don't need to reach the rest of us.
No
I am not a fan of excluding servers from the network because of their users. A better way is to confront the users, try to change their minds with arguments and, if there is no other way, make the network so unwelcoming to them that they leave of their own accord.
The problem is nazis know their arguments are unreasonable. They don't believe them either, they are just rhetorical devices, and they know it.
But every argument with a nazi is just another chance for some rando who has no idea what's going on to get sucked into the nazi pipeline.
Spoken like someone who's never tried to have a reasonable argument with one of those chuds.
Never debate fascists.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, now that's a good fuckin joke right there.
There are nearly 7,000 registered users on the nazi instance. Nearly every bad interaction I've had on the Fediverse has been with someone from the nazi instance (along with some sh.itjust.works folks saying the nazi instance is fine). I'd rather just wash out all 7000 users now. Granted, I'm not on discuss.tchncs.de, so my opinion has no weight, I just think it's something to consider
No
Na. I would rather they have their own little isolation echo chamber so that they don't spread out
That's exactly what everyone defederating them would do?
Just dont subscribe to their communities then.
Why does everybody want to defederate everything, the whole point of lemmy is federation.
Tolerance of Intolerance
Back in the 1940s, the philosopher Karl Popper came up with something called “The Paradox of Tolerance.” It goes like this:
If everyone is tolerant of every idea, then intolerant ideas will emerge. Tolerant people will tolerate this intolerance, and the intolerant people will not tolerate the tolerant people. Eventually, the intolerant people will take over and create a society of intolerance. Therefore, Popper said, to maintain a society of tolerance, the tolerant must be intolerant of intolerance… hence the paradox.
Yeah thats a good thought experiment and worth thinking about.
However this is the internet. And like the internet, lemmy is hosted by many people with many different views, and used by an even broader range of people. Tons of things get people branded as intolerant. If everybody accused of being intolerant was shunned we'd be left with only the most homogenous, boring, milquetoast echo chamber.
"I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it"
I wouldn't call it a thought experiment. It's how the world works. Don't be nice to nazis or a*holes or they'll use you.
I'm not sure if what some people call tolerace or intolerance is actually correct. Diversity is a good thing. Also diversity of oppinions. But you can't manipulate people or lie to them with false facts. If you think about it, you can find out what's right and wrong. But keep in mind, there is a rightful place for a anarcho leftist community and also for a safe space that i can share with my 12 year old niece or mom. Just respect people and be tolerant, but also be realistic and don't let a few a*holes ruin everything for everyone.
The main problem is that things show up in the "All" view even if you are not subscribed to them. And some instances are really so toxic, that blocking their individual communities isn't practical anymore.
Then a better solution would be a user-side instance block, similar how to on lemmy users can block communities. Defederation is the wrong direction for the site to take.
I generally agree that defederation is bad, but with instances that are really **and only ** a cesspit, it should be ok.
When you’re federating with 90%+ of communities, are you really defederating everything? I mean, these people are Nazis. It’s not like they’re some benign group
Literally the first two things I get there is a post celebrating the suicide of trans people, some Hilary Clinton conspiracy bullshit, and some other Bill Gates vaccine nonsense...
According to a post a day ago there Lemmy. World already defederated
The top post I immediately see is filled with slurs, so I don't see anything there worth salvaging.
you can block a user easily
But each user can't block an instance, only instances can do that. A per-user instance blocklist would be nice.
Yeah for some reason that feature exists on Mastodon, so it's technically possible in the fedi. Must not be implemented in Lemmy yet.
Echo chambers are for over sensitive Nancy boys.
Nazi supporters and apologists are just Nazis. Do you know what is done to Nazis?
They're put in charge of rocketry programs?
I suppose that's one way to look at it.