Hey! This post is not specifically related to the lemmy.world instance. From now on, posts such as these will be removed, in order for the community to stay on topic. However, as this is a highly upvoted post, I'll just lock it for now.
It's not that you're charging for API access; it's that you're charging US pharmaceutical industry pricing levels ($12,000 for something that should realistically be $200) and then only giving devs such a short time to implement changes. This was designed to kill 3PApps outright and everyone can see it. What an ass.
Of course they aren't going back. We saw how arrogant spez was. There was no doubt in my mind he is just going to rely on the fact that most people are rarely committed enough to do anything.
My expectation... Some will stay with the fediverse. Others will see the blackout as a "we did everything we could" and then go back, business as usual.
I for sure will not be back. I like RIF and it is the only way I browse. With RIF gone so too am I.
Unlike some of the 3P [third-party] apps, we are not profitable
It's their own fault. They didn't have to take hundred of millions of venture capital and hire thousands of people. They didn't have to go try to become a XX billion dollars company fighting with Facebook and Tiktok.
They could be profitable with a hundred engineers, a hundred support staff and reasonable ads. They could make delivering ads part of their API and have 3rd party apps serve them for them. They could let those 3rd party app handle the mobile markets since those solo devs are creating better apps than the hundreds of engineers at Reddit.
I'm really annoyed that they are changing a winning formula to build something that nobody wants
There's this toxic idea in the business world, that in order to be successful you can't just make money and be profitable, but your profits have to keep increasing year after year. This kind of runaway, cancerous growth is poison to the country and the world.
This is like if a Grocery chain said that they need to stop selling Lemons to little girls because the lemonade stands were profitable and they aren't. The scale of the two businesses is not the same... none of these apps have millions of dollars in VC funds or thousands of employees.
But Reddit doesn't need these thousands of employees, they're already getting the brunt of the workforce for free (the mods). Like the other guy said, one hundred engineers to manage the platform, 100 customer service to help the mods/do admin and off you go, you just need a few unobtrusive ads to finance that. But that's way too open and won't turn you into a billion dollar business nor get you any love from advertisers or VCs, let alone going IPO, so we are where we are.
As someone who's 4 weeks into new job with very unclear duties, there's definitely a point where a company loses a lot of efficiency because there's too many people who don't seem to do much for the company, even those who want to do more for the company.
On the upside its a very low stress job with very good pay and benefits, plus I'm getting to do things like leading trainings that I might not otherwise get to do at this stage of my career
and im willing to pay for API access. If Reddit started charging me a buck or two i would be ok with that. I recognize that servers are not free, and their profit has to come from somewhere.
But charging app devs $20,000,000 a year is NOT the solution.
And the Apollo dev said there were things they could have done, but the combination of 30 days notice, and the number of subscribers Apollo had who had prepaid for a year, (at a much lower price) the was no way to make that work. Plus Reddit had promised them no API changes just a few months ago.
They also could have saved money by remaining a link aggregator/discussion board instead of deciding to host media as well. Any surge in costs is their own fault.
I've seen people saying "Lemmy can never replace reddit because the instances won't be able to afford to host video!" ...My dudes, I have never once asked my forum / social media site to host videos.
This is the big issue with growth investment or whatever the hell its called. Instead of being happy with a steady revenue, big companies have to always grow until they become completely unsustainable.
It blows my mind that Reddit can look at 90% of its communities going dark in some way and think, "yeah, this is fine."
EDIT (AGAIN): Thank you all for the comments on total subs. It's still clearly not 90%, but it still appears to be a significant portion of the active Reddit community. For the interested, check out the comments below for stats. :)
It might be as Louis Rossmann said, it was a mistake to say "we're going black for two days. They should've just says "were going black until you cange the rules again".
Of course it's up to the user to take action and abstain but if I open Reddit I see posts and can mostly scroll through my feed like it's any other day. If I wouldn't have known subreddits went private (and they didn't sticky a message) I might have not even noticed since I'll just see posts from subreddits who don't participate instead. The power that makes Reddit so good is working against the community effort right now.
The first thing I did this morning was open BaconReader from my homescreen before realizing what day it was. I replaced BaconReader with Jerboa to try and break the habit. It's not easy and I think Reddit knows it.
Is this for real? I wonder if different people's r/all look different. Mine is a ghost land. I would know something is up instantly. There's like 20 posts on my front page with 0 up votes from random ass subreddits I've never heard of. The content of the posts on the front page is wildly different than normal too.
Lots are just going dark indefinitely so hopefully it hurts them. I went to look on there this morning and their server response is worse than Lemmy atm so I dunno what's going on.
There are, apparently, 2.8 million subreddits. About 8,000 are dark, meaning that's just over one quarter of one percent of subreddits. Even with some of the largest subs participating, I wouldn't be surprised if there is no massive dip in traffic. There are enough subs still open with enough mass appeal that most people will just look at some other subs for a few days. And I'll be honest, even though I've made an account both here and on kbin, I know I'll still use old.reddit (with RES and an adblocker at least) most of the time, simply because I doubt any of the subs I actively look at will do any meaningful migration that would lead to a similar level of discussion.
Hmm, 2.8 million subreddits, but how many are ghost towns? I wonder if anyone has a measurement in terms of monthly active users or something along those lines.
Of all the subs I was subscribed to, there were I want to say only about 10 that didn't take part in the blackout. I unsubscribed to all of them. I am now subscribed to only subs that either took part in the blackout, or in one case one that opted to remain public (due to the nature of its contents) but is blocking all submissions for the next couple days.
For me, once RIF stops working, reddit will be dead to me. I will never install their official app, and 99% of the time I'm on reddit is on mobile. I have no doubt that old reddits days are numbered as well and that was the remaining 1%.
IDK, he said in the AMA that old reddit isn't going anywhere, and even if he's lying I don't think he would immediately do a 180 and kill it. The way I see it, it will probably be around for the foreseeable future.
Reading comment above yours i dont think the 2.8million is correct and it also states that there are only 100,000 subreddits with over 125 subscribers and only 34,000 with more tham 1000 subs. Of the roughly 8000 subreddits that went dark there are someof the biggests subscriber counts woth some having millions of subscribers. I think based on that that its actually quite a hefty number.
It's also worth noting that many of those massive subs, especially the default subs, have lots of overlap in subscribers. r/funny with 50 million and r/aww with 30 million does not necessarily equal 80 million people because there are millions, probably even tens of millions, of people who are subbed to both.
Yeah, it's kinda crazy. I support the blackout but deep down I know nothing of substance will come of it. Their dip in traffic is probably not much worse than when a major city loses power.
Why would anyone even want the job as a moderator on a dying site that's going to be filled with trolls and spam? Heck, you'd be better-off just getting a job at McDonalds. At least that pays.
I agree that coming on as a mod would be undesirable in this climate, but I do think a lot of us as part of the protest have a bit of a blind spot. Reddit may be hurt from this, and they may slowly start losing users, especially if Lemmy or another good alternative start taking off, but let's be a little realistic here. Lemmy has a total user base of around 112,000 people as of yesterday, though I'm sure a fair few of these accounts are the same person (I have 3 Lemmy accounts on three instances). Reddit has over 50 million daily users. (Lemmy's active monthly user count is around 15,000 right now). Reddit's monthly user count is 1.6 BILLION. If Reddit is 'dying', Lemmy has been dead and buried. (Yes, I know one is growing and one is shrinking this week, but it's a little naive to think that will definitely stay that way.)
Could Reddit eventually die and an alternative rise in its place? Certainly, but it's going to be a couple years off.
There were ~34,000 subreddits with more than a 1000 subscribers. And 100,000 subreddits with more than 125 subscribers.
Looking at https://subredditstats.com/ the top 5000 subreddits make up about 30% (based on an estimated 840,000 posts a day by some reddit user on a subreddit that's currently dark so I can't give a good link) of the daily posts and surely far more than 30% of the daily traffic.
somebody else pointed this out, but it's honestly bizarre he's going in on the "we aren't making any money" ploy in preparation for the ipo
what's the pitch to the investors? "please by shares in this unprofitable company, in the hope that we can become profitable by pissing off our userbase"?
That 8838 is the number of subs who pledged to protest in some capacity. A lot of them are big subreddits, but still. It's not like they've cut off access to 90% of the site like some people think.
Yeah but how many of those millions are ghost towns?, since a lot of the biggest subs are participating I'm more curious about how reddit will handle it, replacing the mods in every one of them? That's a lot of man power, I hope whoever they put in charge isn't an idiot that does it for free, and what's more funny is that the best mod tools rely on the API and 3rd party access.
At the very least I expect a decline in quality content and spam, trolls, bots etc.
If they have any kind of archive of past mod decisions then they can just dump all that into a neural net. And then they get to look all sexy in their upcoming IPO because they are using ⭐️⭐️⭐️ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE⭐️⭐️⭐️ like all the ⭐️⭐️⭐️SEXIEST⭐️⭐️⭐️ companies!!!1! No more of those annoying unpaid volunteers to get uppity any more!
I, for one, do not welcome our new AI moderation overlords, and will probably be done with Reddit if this happens. But I just know someone there has to be pushing for this.
It would take a considerable while to train an in-house LLM AI for moderation purposes, and even if it was trained honestly it would at least be consistent whereas you can get away with breaking mod rules as long as your meme made them chuckle, etc.
Who cares, AI will become a part of Lemmy too and I'm just done with reddit anyways.
Oh I'm not saying these putative AI mods would be any better than existing Reddit mods. They'd probably be even more arbitrary and capricious and unappealable, and I sure don't expect them to be anywhere near fully-trained. But they'd be owned by Reddit, who would now be ⭐️⭐️⭐️AN AI COMPANY⭐️⭐️⭐️, which is the replacement for "the blockchain" as a thing you vaguely mention your company using if you want rich, dumb investors to wet their pants and throw tons of money at you.
Yeah, but those subs contain the majority of redditor interaction.
~70k people on a sub is enough to put it into the top 5%. The top 1% subs are very likely responsible for 50%+ of all reddit posts. Losing just a handful of them is a big deal.
Unfortunately in a few hours most of those subreddits will open back up and it'll be business as normal. The ones that don't open will be transferred over to new moderators and they'll resume normal operation too.
Realistically, for the most part, not much will change for Reddit. A lot has changed for me and you, though. I've diversified my entertainment and don't intend to lurk the same website for hours a day. I like Lemmy, and I like the people here but Reddit is too old and too encompassing to never visit it again.
Piggy backing off this to remind people that after multiple reports of a child porn seller on reddit were either ignored or claimed to not to violate TOS, spez personally banned me for harassment after I asked him to intervene.
I think Reddit will have a somewhat significant loss in users but it'll endure, at least for the time being. Social media sites die slower now. But I'm happy I found alternatives because I just can't see myself using their official app
Well Steve, it's not profitable for me to be a moderator for free either. Feel free to let me know how profitable you think you'll be after hiring enough staff to replace all the mods that'll be leaving.
Same. Dude is acting like a spoiled brat digging his heels in when everyone is telling him he’s making a huge mistake. It would be like the captain of the Titanic seeing the iceberg and thinking “It’ll move”.
I think for me it was just the one last thing that pushed me over the edge. The content was starting to get meh and the bots were 👎
Like I said a few other places, even if Lemmy only grows to be 1% of the size, I honestly like the small community vibe of it more than Reddit. More direct interactions.
same here, the only reason I haven't completely deleted my reddit account is because I still wanna sell some stuff there. Other than that, I'm not planning on using it anymore
I won't argue against the need for reddit to be profitable, they're a business after all, BUT, all respectable software that is paid has different tiers of pricing, usually ranging from single-user to corporate-deployment.
spez is complaining everywhere that they can't allow corporate-level scraping of data to train AI for free, and that's fair, but why don't they differentiate "small" devs developing apps for users from "corporations" training AI?
I find it really hard to believe it's too difficult for them, other paid software/platforms do it all the time.
The only logical explanation to me is they don't want to, they just want to kill apps no matter what, that's why the unreasonable prices for everyone, they're just using the "no profitable" excuse to do that without a worse backslash than they're getting already, tho they're being quite stupid about it.
There is literally no new information in this article and the title implies that it is in response to the acutal blackout, and not the threat of one. Bad article.
I never expected them to change their mind, they know what they want and they know what sort of people they want on their platform and frankly it is not us.
Plenty of people including me are very glad about being pushed in a more fedi direction, and genuinely enjoy it here. Probably most of those people are older like me and feel very much at home with a bit of jank, with Mastodon's topic-based following system, etc etc. Because that's what the internet was like when we were first exploring it. We will 100% stick around.
For younger or less techy people though, the only thing that really gets them to use services is how easy it is. And that's fine too. We can have our own corner of the internet here to be dorks in, and they can have their own corner over there, and we can all still be friends just...you know...from a distance.
They really should have just found out what the 3rd party apps -COULD PAY-. If it covered the cost of their usage and there was some profit on the top, it would at least bring in some money. Based on what I read by the Apollo dev, there was back and forth communication about pricing for a while until he broke the news.
It astounds me that they chose to cut them off entirely by offering impossible pricing. Isn't some money better than no money?
It's because the planned IPO. Allowing third party apps, that are better designed, show no ads and don't collect the same amount of telemetry data (seriously the official app spies constantly for user data), doesn't look good in the eyes of potential investors.
Also, the API feed doesn't push ads, so 3rd party ads don't have anything to show. Reddit should have redesigned their API so ads could get pushed out.
Idk I use relay and he thinks he can do it for 3 dollars a month, but that's still giving into reddit. I'd rather then switch and start making Lemmy apps, or adapt their app over, might be unreasonable but just a thought
3 dollars a month for a lesser experience, mind. What with reddit stopping access to NSFW/explicit stuff via non-official apps.
But honestly, even if my app of choice - Sync - could do it, I'm not about to pay a corporation for content generated for free by us. The whole thing stinks of the slow slide of social media into the gutter. Happened with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit is no different.
Federated social media might take a little while to take off, but it will be so much less toxic and much more enjoyable without the ever expanding need of a corporation to deliver more and more profit at the expense of the user.
I’m not about to pay a corporation for content generated for free by us
That's actually a good point. I don't mind paying for access to an app, since it costs money to maintain, but our posts draw people into the site to read advice, news, and funny stuff. If Reddit is going full-monetization, there should at least be some payment for... upvotes? Views?
Not really a good point. Servers, bandwidth and employees cost money. Even if content is generated for free, those things cost money. A reasonable price is totally fair for an ad-free experience.
This. For those that understand that standing up the infrastructure costs money, I don’t think paying a reasonable price would be out of the realm. Even the Apollo dev was stating that API should not be free, but reasonable.
I feel like there's a weird disconnect in the way that a lot of people perceive physical and digital infrastructure.
For something like a road, it's natural to assume that maintaining it costs money - after all, you can see the wear and tear on it, you can see the guys patching it, etc. Because of this, things like paying tolls are an annoyance, but most everybody accepts it as the cost of keeping things running.
For a website, though, almost everything is hidden from the end user. You don't know how the server is doing beyond "is it up or down," you don't know how big the dev team was or how many people maintain it, or what costs they incur... And so, people seem to be more prone to assuming that "it just works," without considering the costs behind it.
Right, but the content is also what draws people in. Not just the infrastructure. So if some of that money made its way back to mods and top posters then they would be feeding the community instead of charging them for the content that brings in more viewers.
Others have speculated that the API pricing model is built around customers who want to use the data for AI training, not customers who want to build apps for public use. The $20M price tag is what they're hoping a mega corp will pay for data access and don't care about anyone who can't afford that much. Some money is better than no money, but for a lot of people the "chance" at BIG money is better than some money lol
If this is the case, I don’t understand why they wouldn’t just separate into tiers, where mass data usage to feed into a language model is priced differently than people legitimately using and contributing content to the site.
they still have a lot to gain by killing the 3rd party apps and forcing the remaining users to the platform that will benefit their valuation the most. the pricing is to court the big whales to sell data to and the forcing people to use the native app is to improve the quality of the data they want to sell.
Precisely. Investors like apps because users cannot change their user experience, disable telemetry, block ads easily, and so on. They receive push notifications which drive engagement and allow easier tracking across accounts.
I think it's simply that they want to funnel all of their users to official channels. All of this "discussion" is a poorly veiled attempt at public justification. 30 days notice at the quoted price tag was very intentional. My hope is that Reddit seriously miscalculated the amount of damage this would cause. My suspicion is that /u/spez doesn't care and is willing to nuke the site for a one-time payout at maximum valuation.
Digg used to be king. People abandoned it in droves when they went a step too far and there was an alternative. Reddit is not immune to the same thing happening to them.
The problem is that Reddit is much bigger than Digg ever was. They are entrenched. Getting people to switch will be difficult when all we have to offer is ”Its like Reddit but way more of a clusterfuck.”
Normies are going to take one look at the list of Lemmy instance and say ”nope.” So that leaves mostly us technical minded folks. So then, why would I use Lemmy over HN?
That's the biggest problem that I see for Lemmy’s future. We should be asking ourselves ”What can we do that other platforms cannot?” We cannot survive if we're just a clone of Reddit.
Give us "normies" a little credit. I'm not technical minded AT ALL and I'm still willing to stick around and figure out how this shit works. Do I understand it? Hardly. Does the app I'm using (Jerboa) work? Barely. (Although today's new release has improved it greatly, thanks guys!). But I'm still floundering around here and it's a bit frustrating. I'm still going to give it a go though. I'm confident that improvements will come that make it easier here for everyone like me that uses the internet a lot but doesn't really understand the internet that much.
But maybe I'm just willing to stick it out because I was only looking for an excuse to leave Reddit and the means to do so. I admit I don't really care about the recent debacle, I just miss the old Reddit of 10-15 years ago and I don't like what it's become (a place full of memes, TikTok videos, dumb jokes, and hardly any real conversation anymore). It took this most recent fiasco for people to start talking about alternatives and that's when I finally learned about the fediverse and made the move. It has been a lot easier to leave when I knew where I could go.
Precisely, you don't have to be deeply technical to understand this, you just have to be willing to put in a little bit of work.
I also found it a little complex and daunting at first as it was my first contact with the fedirverse, and I've been on the internet since pretty much the start.
We'll make it a great place to be, and other people will see the benefits and put in the same work too.
Normies are going to take one look at the list of Lemmy instance and say ”nope.” So that leaves mostly us technical minded folks. So then, why would I use Lemmy over HN?
To be honest, I (as a techy myself) thought the same when I checked out Lemmy for the first time. Once I realized that most of the big instances are already federated anyway and that I can see all their posts when I browse All, my doubts were gone. It's really not that much of a hurdle, even for non tech savvy people.
Hacker News, a link aggregator similar to oldschool reddit before subreddits were introduced. I find it often has some interesting discussions but it's not for everybody.
User education will be key. Let’s face it, old time “Redditors” will look at the simplicity of creating an account, and looking at sub-reddits and say “I’m too old to learn a new way. This is too much”.
The seniors won’t leave, and the younger who don’t follow basic tech will be in the same boat. Just look around some of the subs there - they are entrenched.
Not at all. Most tech startups (if not all) are unprofitable at IPO. Plus they have to make their finances public, so it's not something that was a secret before.
I was so repulsed by that AMA, what a joke. It really solidified my decision to look elsewhere. Reddit just is not Reddit anymore. Gone is that entity that lives on only in my memories. As with many things past, present and future, money tends to ruin it all for us.
I really can't wait to see what's the fallout of Reddit going dark. Does the community really wield the power? Or does Reddit have another ace up its sleeve?
Mods can be replaced. Remember r/TheDonald? Not that I have -any- sympathy at all for those trogs, but the admin dealt with them by deleting all the mods and appointing new ones that would toe the line. There's nothing to stop them from using that playbook again. A lot of people will leave, but a lot of people will shrug and go back to posting cat pictures.
The real fallout will be seeing what the numbers look like after July 1st. When all the third party users are given the unavoidable choice to switch to the official app or not. If engagement goes down then and stay lower, it’s ogre for Reddit.
I’m going to try to ween myself off reddit. I added the Lemmy page to my Home Screen where Apollo used to be and deleted the reddit app. (Don’t feel like sideloading the Lemmy app). I’ll probably still be browsing with Apollo until I can’t any more. 🤷🏻♂️
Edit to add: the death of reddit will be slow. They’re going to stick to their guns, the people who actually make reddit good will move leaving only bots, scammers, and idiots. The idiots will realize they’re surrounded by idiots, while not realizing they’re idiots, and they won’t like that so they’ll try to move here. Depending on how easy it is to move to Lemmy by the time that happens will dictate how many idiots move here. I feel like the current level of difficulty sets a high enough bar to keep the idiots out… for now.
It started out great at the times of Aaron Swartz, but just as with people, cancer sometimes hits. Anyway, it influenced projects like lemmy for which I'm thankful.
Yes I'm aware of the history. The only way to kill cancer is excise it. Lemmy realistically can't take a full migration from Reddit but that needs to change. I too am super grateful. Part of me wonders if this platform could end the same way but given it's decentralised nature, I highly doubt it. Reddit was open source once. I really want this to succeed. Seize the means of communication.
One thing that worries me is Lemmy's dedication to non-advertisement funding. Lemmy will never be able to handle a ton of people without money for server space and bandwidth. I hate ads as much as anyone, but there are ways to do it that aren't intrusive or toxic or damage your integrity.
The privacy movement can't sell out to private entities or all bets are off again, I think no advertisements is wholly nessasary. I think taking out Reddit is much more achievable than many people think. Yes it will take some money and resources.
The money is coming from the community, which is why progress is slow. People don't have much money. It doesn't mean we should sell the soul of the project for a quick buck. Rome wasn't built in a day.
As more and more people host their own federated instances it won't be as big of a problem as it was for web 2.0 legacy sites like reddit. The Fediverse really is the future.
There are ways to do advertising that works and is not annoying (or at least less annoying). Context advertising are ads that are directly related to the subject matter of interest. For example, ads from companies that are in the business of meeting the needs of the boatbuilding community would be welcome or at least tolerated in a boatbuilding community. Those same ads shown to a programming community would be less welcome, even if there happens to be significant shared membership.
For example, the paper magazine "Small Craft Advisor" recently transitioned to online only via Substack. It didn't take long for subscribers to actually complain about the loss of advertising and SCA had to respond with self-promotion articles from former advertisers.
Context advertising requires no user profiling, no user tracking, and no data collection. "Oh, you sell epoxy (or sails or plans)? Well here is a community (as distinct from a user profile) that is likely looking for what you sell and probably already discussing products in your line of business."
There is a site I am familiar with that was determined to not have intrusive ads and actually created a side business of creating ads for its advertisers that it would find acceptable on the site, which consisted of a still image of given dimensions, and a link.
When you say no data collection, you mean no personalized data collection, right? Obviously they would want to know how many times the ad was clicked.
Yes, no personalized data collection. Both sides of the ad transaction would need to track something if the placement had some kind of impressions or click-through payment system. It's been a while since I've managed a website, but I think most of that can be handled with pretty basic logging that has existed since before micro-targeted advertising was even conceived.
For a simple placement contract like we have with what few newspapers remain, the ad supplier could assess the value of the placement for themselves using standard referrer logs. Not paying its way? Don't renew the placement.
Open source and decentralized are two different things, as long as it's just a bunch of independent server instances which are small enough each to handle the traffic load you can't really buy that out.
yes, its origins were great, it's finale is not so great. I suspect if Aaron were alive he'd be livid. I also think reddit's demise might be the intended outcome, like BCG is at the helm or somesuch.
I think it will be more like the tide moving out slowly ... no one will really notice and the CEO and owners will keep telling everyone everything will be fine even as their ship sits beached on a sandbar and the water will never return.
Power users is how any and all social media started. The power users make something cool, which gains momentum and draws in others.
Corporate social media has shown across the board that they are user-hostile, hence exoduses from Facebook and Twitter. (And would have happened to YouTube too if their was a viable place to go to - but I guess video hosting is a more costly challenge.)
Do you know who the primary contributors of Reddit were in terms of community member?
I.e. how much do the masses contribute to Reddit, or is it mostly power users?
If I wanted to scroll mindlessly through the flea market of the internet, I'd open Mastodon. I often do, but, reddit is, er... was the community. The community is reddit. The memes, the jokes, the little phrases. They don't own any of that.
This Reddit board thinks they can fence people in but don't see that al of what they are is build by people that likely just go elsewhere if they're continually treated like shit
Agreed. Reddit is a burning trainwreck you can't look away from at this point. I'm not gonna be in the trainwreck, but rather I'll just watch it from here (aka lemmy)
Why? The entire community is still there. Reverse the greedy API change, allow 3rd party apps continued full access, I’d be back on Apollo in a heartbeat.
I could be tempted but none of that is going to happen. Even though this move will kill the community, it won't kill it fast enough to cause a problem. There's just too much money to be made.
WE should blackout for longer, i own a very small subreddit, but 2 days is not enough!! im not backing down tomorrow, i ask over subs do the same. lets stick it to reddit
Had the subs gone off for longer (2 weeks) or indefinitely, the risk of Google bots dropping links may have shaken things up more. Personally, I don’t see Reddit going anywhere. There frankly is not enough backing for a sustained enough period of time. Reddit knows tomorrow subs who joined for 2 days will re-open.
Also, I think the people who stay after the blackouts are the ones Reddit wants: the ones least likely to care about being subjected to ads and hostile UI. The ones least likely to leave or protest. The ones with least critical thinking. The ones consuming the most trivial content and guerrilla marketing. The holy grail of any money-hungry social network.
That's true, they're filtering out the people they can't bully around. Smaller population of users but you can be relatively certain about their behavior.
It's like when a scammer intentionally misspells things so that people who are more aware are filtered out off the bat.
Once I got Lemmy working on mobile I just deleted my reddit account straight up, a two day protest was always a stupid move. The only way to get their attention is permanently stopping the use of the platform.
Unfortunately in order to actually make a dent in anything under capitalism you simply can't partake of it at all.
Yep, I've had a few different accounts over the years. I tended to delete mine when I hit 100k karma and start over. My last one was barely a year old but whatever, it's gone now and they know why if they read the "why are you leaving?" Thing.
This article and quote is from june 9, before the outages. That said, I agree a planned 2 day blackout is not as powerful as an indefinite strike until plans are reversed
This kind of protest is meaningless, going back online after 48 hours? It's just a way for communities to feel good about themselves. The best way to protest is to delete the account / subreddit going offline indefinitely (although I doubt the effectiveness of this)
The disrespect that the average person gets from corporations these days is fucking unbelievable. This current thing with reddit is something especially BS. ALL of the work in the various subreddits were done by the community, supported by third-party apps ALSO built by the community.
Because they know that ultimately the layuser will stay on reddit. Super sad to see, but maybe if subreddits like r/movies stay dark indefinitely it may push them to make at least some changes to their current stance.
If not and they just swap moderators, the outcry might be pretty bad.
Really curious to see how long the more popular subreddits will remain private. Surely the admin won't just turn them public again without having any mods, right? I kinda would love to see that dumpster fire.
It's difficult to rewire a dopamine pathway you've been traveling for 14 years.
Knowing that other people care enough to abstain for two days is useful in that process.
I never expected Reddit to change their policy. I have been surprised at how petulant, dishonest and unprofessional they've been. I would have expected a bland corporate response.
7750/8300 subreddits are blacked out. Plus the server issues caused by the blackout yesterday. I’d be interested to see if an indefinite strike could be powerful enough to reverse this plan
It was never going to do more than get people talking, the number of subreddits isn't as important as what the long term impact to users and quality will be.
They have signaled their interests are not user centric, it wont be the last outrage I'm sure but they'll keep getting away with it if there isn't a clear alternative and people keep going back.
That's true. The changes don't really effect me in any immediate way, but the blackout gave me a reason to uninstall Reddit for a few days and try Lemmy.
I wouldn't say it was a flop. A massive number of subs and users are participating at the moment (some forced due to the blackouts). But I do agree that reddit executives definitely don't give a shit, and will eventually just start booting mods to bring the subs back if they don't fall in line.
The number on the page is a bit misleading. If you comb through the website's code on GitHub, you'll see that the 8,838 is actually the number of subreddits that agreed to participate in the blackout.
Calling it a flop isn't accurate either, though.
Sure, most subreddits don't care, but the largest and most active subreddits are overwhelmingly in support of the blackout, but they are also much more affected by Reddit's changes than smaller subreddits.
What absolutely bends my mind is there's still confused people wandering into the blackout threads with absolutely no clue what's going on. How is this info not reaching these people?
It'll cost them though. Moderation takes a lot of manpower that they've almost gotten for free until now. And without third-party tools for moderation, it'll take even more manpower.
Perhaps, but if they just decide to be private and only allow 2 posts per day as a type of work slowdown, it would be more awkward for reddit to replace the mods.
What I don't get is who they're posturing for now.
They showed the developers that the game was fixed and there was no plan to negotiate in good faith.
They've shown the userbase they aren't responsive to strongly held concerns.
They've shown a potential IPO audience that they're capable of burning down the platform in record time and not even waiting until after they cashed out to do so.
They've shown everyone they don't even have the most basic understanding of corporate bullshit speak. It's not hard to put together "We hear your concerns and will assemble a committee of top minds who will proceed to ignore these concerns."
I guess they just want to say they didn't back down. That and $12.50 gets you a cup of coffee.
It also lines up with the media attention span. On day 5 "reddit lost users during the blackout" will be a better headline than "blackout still going on fyi".
I'll be interested to see if they try to keep the money happy by trying to kill porn on reddit.
If they try that reddit would be in worse shape than Trump.
It's going to be an uphill battle and maybe even a siege. It's going to mean these sub-reddits are going to have to be dark for the foreseeable future if they want to make it painful for Spez and team.
I have officially migrated here from reddit, after nearly 15 years over there. This is my 1st comment and the 1st post I've viewed.
For me, it's irrelevant whether or not my decision makes a discernable impact; I simply won't support them with my traffic and won't settle for the default app. No 3rd party apps simply equates to no reddit for me.
And even if they walked back their decision regarding their API, I still wouldn't return unless there was a change in management.
I don't think reddit will walk back their decision, and I don't think they'll be going anywhere either. But I think this is a tipping point in reddit's quality as a site/community. Analogously to russia's brain drain, I believe we will see that the core of the redditors who are leaving are made up of redditors who promote a healthy functioning site/communities.
I was a very core member of several subreddits and did some moderation, but also contributed to reporting content, etc. that most users neglect, but are integral to limiting spam, trolls, and hate. It's not the users shitposting on r/funny or r/gaming that are going to leave. It's the long-time users who have been propping up this paper tiger.
If enough mods and healthy community members leave, reddit is going to devolve into a cesspool. Reddit will be hard off if they lose the free labor of mods that have propped up their site for years.
Trying this out for the first time, Its honestly really similar. No Apollo app means no reddit for me, unfortunately. If Lemmy can make a good mobile app and the community grows a bit I could see being a semi-daily user here.
I've liked my experience on Jerboa for Lemmy. It looks great and feels streamlined in list view with the font size I've chosen. That's android, but there's also an ios app for lemmy.
It will be more like a downhill slide for them. Without third party apps how are mods going to moderate? There will be so much more spam, trolls, and scams, the already tenuous experience will become even worse.
If they stick with these changes they're already dead, they're just living on borrowed time.
Man, this is so dumb; unfortunately, if they open up all the subs, people are just gonna rush back because there's no reason to try to make anything else work.
The thing is I don't, though. Besides, what's to respect? He's just a corporate front-man and the board and the money-men have his balls in a vice. He'll say what they tell him to or they'll take turns on the handle.
Well of course not. their mistake is that they're trying to make profit on something that's not profitable. Musk made the same mistake. Unfortunately the general mass can't comprehend the complexity (!) of multiple instances of a same platform because no one uses emails so I don't actually believe Lemmy or Kbin will become mainstream. People will slowly trickle back to Reddit once they realize they have no alternatives.
Hey! This post is not specifically related to the lemmy.world instance. From now on, posts such as these will be removed, in order for the community to stay on topic. However, as this is a highly upvoted post, I'll just lock it for now.
It's not that you're charging for API access; it's that you're charging US pharmaceutical industry pricing levels ($12,000 for something that should realistically be $200) and then only giving devs such a short time to implement changes. This was designed to kill 3PApps outright and everyone can see it. What an ass.
Of course they aren't going back. We saw how arrogant spez was. There was no doubt in my mind he is just going to rely on the fact that most people are rarely committed enough to do anything.
My expectation... Some will stay with the fediverse. Others will see the blackout as a "we did everything we could" and then go back, business as usual.
I for sure will not be back. I like RIF and it is the only way I browse. With RIF gone so too am I.
It's their own fault. They didn't have to take hundred of millions of venture capital and hire thousands of people. They didn't have to go try to become a XX billion dollars company fighting with Facebook and Tiktok.
They could be profitable with a hundred engineers, a hundred support staff and reasonable ads. They could make delivering ads part of their API and have 3rd party apps serve them for them. They could let those 3rd party app handle the mobile markets since those solo devs are creating better apps than the hundreds of engineers at Reddit.
I'm really annoyed that they are changing a winning formula to build something that nobody wants
There's this toxic idea in the business world, that in order to be successful you can't just make money and be profitable, but your profits have to keep increasing year after year. This kind of runaway, cancerous growth is poison to the country and the world.
The founders want to be billionaires, as if being a multimillionaire would not be enough.
This is like if a Grocery chain said that they need to stop selling Lemons to little girls because the lemonade stands were profitable and they aren't. The scale of the two businesses is not the same... none of these apps have millions of dollars in VC funds or thousands of employees.
But Reddit doesn't need these thousands of employees, they're already getting the brunt of the workforce for free (the mods). Like the other guy said, one hundred engineers to manage the platform, 100 customer service to help the mods/do admin and off you go, you just need a few unobtrusive ads to finance that. But that's way too open and won't turn you into a billion dollar business nor get you any love from advertisers or VCs, let alone going IPO, so we are where we are.
Agreed. What are all their employees doing? Is reddit basically an adult daycare?
they are doing things like launching Avatars, NFT's, and other ways to try and cash in for a quick buck.
As someone who's 4 weeks into new job with very unclear duties, there's definitely a point where a company loses a lot of efficiency because there's too many people who don't seem to do much for the company, even those who want to do more for the company.
On the upside its a very low stress job with very good pay and benefits, plus I'm getting to do things like leading trainings that I might not otherwise get to do at this stage of my career
and im willing to pay for API access. If Reddit started charging me a buck or two i would be ok with that. I recognize that servers are not free, and their profit has to come from somewhere.
But charging app devs $20,000,000 a year is NOT the solution.
I would have accepted it.. Not anymore. They burned this bridge.
And the Apollo dev said there were things they could have done, but the combination of 30 days notice, and the number of subscribers Apollo had who had prepaid for a year, (at a much lower price) the was no way to make that work. Plus Reddit had promised them no API changes just a few months ago.
THIS!
Here's your API passkey. If we catch your app not displaying ads, your passkey be invalidated.
Bobs your uncle, all the browser apps are now delivering your ads.
They also could have saved money by remaining a link aggregator/discussion board instead of deciding to host media as well. Any surge in costs is their own fault.
I've seen people saying "Lemmy can never replace reddit because the instances won't be able to afford to host video!" ...My dudes, I have never once asked my forum / social media site to host videos.
This is the big issue with growth investment or whatever the hell its called. Instead of being happy with a steady revenue, big companies have to always grow until they become completely unsustainable.
It blows my mind that Reddit can look at 90% of its communities going dark in some way and think, "yeah, this is fine."
EDIT (AGAIN): Thank you all for the comments on total subs. It's still clearly not 90%, but it still appears to be a significant portion of the active Reddit community. For the interested, check out the comments below for stats. :)
It might be as Louis Rossmann said, it was a mistake to say "we're going black for two days. They should've just says "were going black until you cange the rules again".
Abstaining for two days is enough to break a habbit.
Reddit's traffic might not recover for a while.
Of course it's up to the user to take action and abstain but if I open Reddit I see posts and can mostly scroll through my feed like it's any other day. If I wouldn't have known subreddits went private (and they didn't sticky a message) I might have not even noticed since I'll just see posts from subreddits who don't participate instead. The power that makes Reddit so good is working against the community effort right now.
The first thing I did this morning was open BaconReader from my homescreen before realizing what day it was. I replaced BaconReader with Jerboa to try and break the habit. It's not easy and I think Reddit knows it.
Is this for real? I wonder if different people's r/all look different. Mine is a ghost land. I would know something is up instantly. There's like 20 posts on my front page with 0 up votes from random ass subreddits I've never heard of. The content of the posts on the front page is wildly different than normal too.
I never use r/all. But I just checked and most of the top posts I saw yesterday seemed to be there still, so maybe there's indeed not much going on.
What is Jerboa, if you'll excuse my ignorance?
It's the Android app for Lemmy
Lots are just going dark indefinitely so hopefully it hurts them. I went to look on there this morning and their server response is worse than Lemmy atm so I dunno what's going on.
Loading full web pages takes more server processing power than API access.
This is browser and RIF just seems weird because blackout should mean less user load.
A lot of subs did that , im sure reddit worked do make it finite .
There are, apparently, 2.8 million subreddits. About 8,000 are dark, meaning that's just over one quarter of one percent of subreddits. Even with some of the largest subs participating, I wouldn't be surprised if there is no massive dip in traffic. There are enough subs still open with enough mass appeal that most people will just look at some other subs for a few days. And I'll be honest, even though I've made an account both here and on kbin, I know I'll still use old.reddit (with RES and an adblocker at least) most of the time, simply because I doubt any of the subs I actively look at will do any meaningful migration that would lead to a similar level of discussion.
Hmm, 2.8 million subreddits, but how many are ghost towns? I wonder if anyone has a measurement in terms of monthly active users or something along those lines.
Of all the subs I was subscribed to, there were I want to say only about 10 that didn't take part in the blackout. I unsubscribed to all of them. I am now subscribed to only subs that either took part in the blackout, or in one case one that opted to remain public (due to the nature of its contents) but is blocking all submissions for the next couple days.
For me, once RIF stops working, reddit will be dead to me. I will never install their official app, and 99% of the time I'm on reddit is on mobile. I have no doubt that old reddits days are numbered as well and that was the remaining 1%.
Not for long you won't. RES and old.reddit are on the chopping block too.
IDK, he said in the AMA that old reddit isn't going anywhere, and even if he's lying I don't think he would immediately do a 180 and kill it. The way I see it, it will probably be around for the foreseeable future.
He was just bullshitting about API changes in April, he's absolutely lying about old.
Well if that ends up being the case, then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Reading comment above yours i dont think the 2.8million is correct and it also states that there are only 100,000 subreddits with over 125 subscribers and only 34,000 with more tham 1000 subs. Of the roughly 8000 subreddits that went dark there are someof the biggests subscriber counts woth some having millions of subscribers. I think based on that that its actually quite a hefty number.
It's also worth noting that many of those massive subs, especially the default subs, have lots of overlap in subscribers. r/funny with 50 million and r/aww with 30 million does not necessarily equal 80 million people because there are millions, probably even tens of millions, of people who are subbed to both.
Wait WHAT.
Yeah, it's kinda crazy. I support the blackout but deep down I know nothing of substance will come of it. Their dip in traffic is probably not much worse than when a major city loses power.
I wouldn't say nothing. I found this site.
Why would anyone even want the job as a moderator on a dying site that's going to be filled with trolls and spam? Heck, you'd be better-off just getting a job at McDonalds. At least that pays.
Indeed - I think they'll manage to find mods but the quality is certainly going to leave something to be desired.
I agree that coming on as a mod would be undesirable in this climate, but I do think a lot of us as part of the protest have a bit of a blind spot. Reddit may be hurt from this, and they may slowly start losing users, especially if Lemmy or another good alternative start taking off, but let's be a little realistic here. Lemmy has a total user base of around 112,000 people as of yesterday, though I'm sure a fair few of these accounts are the same person (I have 3 Lemmy accounts on three instances). Reddit has over 50 million daily users. (Lemmy's active monthly user count is around 15,000 right now). Reddit's monthly user count is 1.6 BILLION. If Reddit is 'dying', Lemmy has been dead and buried. (Yes, I know one is growing and one is shrinking this week, but it's a little naive to think that will definitely stay that way.)
Could Reddit eventually die and an alternative rise in its place? Certainly, but it's going to be a couple years off.
There are absolutely not 2.8 million active subreddits. I just spent like an hour trying to find data on this. Nobody cites their sources. I used a dump of subreddit statistics from 2018, when there were just over a million subreddits. (Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfSubreddits/comments/8gzmmv/i_created_a_better_csv_textspreadsheet_list_of/)
There were ~34,000 subreddits with more than a 1000 subscribers. And 100,000 subreddits with more than 125 subscribers.
Looking at https://subredditstats.com/ the top 5000 subreddits make up about 30% (based on an estimated 840,000 posts a day by some reddit user on a subreddit that's currently dark so I can't give a good link) of the daily posts and surely far more than 30% of the daily traffic.
This makes sense to me. I was wondering how many were active, engaged communities and how many were shells or ghost towns.
somebody else pointed this out, but it's honestly bizarre he's going in on the "we aren't making any money" ploy in preparation for the ipo
what's the pitch to the investors? "please by shares in this unprofitable company, in the hope that we can become profitable by pissing off our userbase"?
There are 3.1 million subreddits.
That 8838 is the number of subs who pledged to protest in some capacity. A lot of them are big subreddits, but still. It's not like they've cut off access to 90% of the site like some people think.
Yeah but how many of those millions are ghost towns?, since a lot of the biggest subs are participating I'm more curious about how reddit will handle it, replacing the mods in every one of them? That's a lot of man power, I hope whoever they put in charge isn't an idiot that does it for free, and what's more funny is that the best mod tools rely on the API and 3rd party access.
At the very least I expect a decline in quality content and spam, trolls, bots etc.
My bet? AI.
If they have any kind of archive of past mod decisions then they can just dump all that into a neural net. And then they get to look all sexy in their upcoming IPO because they are using ⭐️⭐️⭐️ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE⭐️⭐️⭐️ like all the ⭐️⭐️⭐️SEXIEST⭐️⭐️⭐️ companies!!!1! No more of those annoying unpaid volunteers to get uppity any more!
I, for one, do not welcome our new AI moderation overlords, and will probably be done with Reddit if this happens. But I just know someone there has to be pushing for this.
It would take a considerable while to train an in-house LLM AI for moderation purposes, and even if it was trained honestly it would at least be consistent whereas you can get away with breaking mod rules as long as your meme made them chuckle, etc.
Who cares, AI will become a part of Lemmy too and I'm just done with reddit anyways.
Oh I'm not saying these putative AI mods would be any better than existing Reddit mods. They'd probably be even more arbitrary and capricious and unappealable, and I sure don't expect them to be anywhere near fully-trained. But they'd be owned by Reddit, who would now be ⭐️⭐️⭐️AN AI COMPANY⭐️⭐️⭐️, which is the replacement for "the blockchain" as a thing you vaguely mention your company using if you want rich, dumb investors to wet their pants and throw tons of money at you.
Over half my feed went dark. I was only getting posts from 4-5 subreddits, mostly news. That's a big impact on a user.
Losing RIF is what got me looking elsewhere.
Yeah, but those subs contain the majority of redditor interaction. ~70k people on a sub is enough to put it into the top 5%. The top 1% subs are very likely responsible for 50%+ of all reddit posts. Losing just a handful of them is a big deal.
Unfortunately in a few hours most of those subreddits will open back up and it'll be business as normal. The ones that don't open will be transferred over to new moderators and they'll resume normal operation too.
Realistically, for the most part, not much will change for Reddit. A lot has changed for me and you, though. I've diversified my entertainment and don't intend to lurk the same website for hours a day. I like Lemmy, and I like the people here but Reddit is too old and too encompassing to never visit it again.
Piggy backing off this to remind people that after multiple reports of a child porn seller on reddit were either ignored or claimed to not to violate TOS, spez personally banned me for harassment after I asked him to intervene.
The CP seller was still active MONTHS later.
I think Reddit will have a somewhat significant loss in users but it'll endure, at least for the time being. Social media sites die slower now. But I'm happy I found alternatives because I just can't see myself using their official app
As of today, he's saying "the blackout will pass." Doesn't sound he cares at all, so I'm here now. Hello, new friend!
It's not 8838 total, I'm pretty sure it's the list of subs that said they'll participate
Guess I'm sticking with Lemmy, then.
This is the way
This is the way
Honestly fuck that guy. I'm glad that I don't need to continue supporting this person.
— Napoleon Bonaparte
Cool beans. Thanks spez, for introducing me to lemmy.
Been for for 10 minutes. Really like it so far. Really gives me the vibe of the early 2000s internet (in a good way)
This right here.
Well Steve, it's not profitable for me to be a moderator for free either. Feel free to let me know how profitable you think you'll be after hiring enough staff to replace all the mods that'll be leaving.
RIP Reddit! This was all I needed to see to delete my reddit shortcuts from my phone and computer. let's gooooo lemmy!
Same. Dude is acting like a spoiled brat digging his heels in when everyone is telling him he’s making a huge mistake. It would be like the captain of the Titanic seeing the iceberg and thinking “It’ll move”.
I think for me it was just the one last thing that pushed me over the edge. The content was starting to get meh and the bots were 👎
Like I said a few other places, even if Lemmy only grows to be 1% of the size, I honestly like the small community vibe of it more than Reddit. More direct interactions.
I'm hesitant to remove my Reddit bookmark. Too many good memories.
Might just burry it deep in my bookmarks
same here, the only reason I haven't completely deleted my reddit account is because I still wanna sell some stuff there. Other than that, I'm not planning on using it anymore
Since I don't see a link to it in the discussion, here's an internal email from yesterday that has made its way to the Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/13/23759559/reddit-internal-memo-api-pricing-changes-steve-huffman
I won't argue against the need for reddit to be profitable, they're a business after all, BUT, all respectable software that is paid has different tiers of pricing, usually ranging from single-user to corporate-deployment.
spez is complaining everywhere that they can't allow corporate-level scraping of data to train AI for free, and that's fair, but why don't they differentiate "small" devs developing apps for users from "corporations" training AI?
I find it really hard to believe it's too difficult for them, other paid software/platforms do it all the time.
The only logical explanation to me is they don't want to, they just want to kill apps no matter what, that's why the unreasonable prices for everyone, they're just using the "no profitable" excuse to do that without a worse backslash than they're getting already, tho they're being quite stupid about it.
There is literally no new information in this article and the title implies that it is in response to the acutal blackout, and not the threat of one. Bad article.
Thanks for saving my time
Yeah, this is just clickbait.
I never expected them to change their mind, they know what they want and they know what sort of people they want on their platform and frankly it is not us.
Plenty of people including me are very glad about being pushed in a more fedi direction, and genuinely enjoy it here. Probably most of those people are older like me and feel very much at home with a bit of jank, with Mastodon's topic-based following system, etc etc. Because that's what the internet was like when we were first exploring it. We will 100% stick around.
For younger or less techy people though, the only thing that really gets them to use services is how easy it is. And that's fine too. We can have our own corner of the internet here to be dorks in, and they can have their own corner over there, and we can all still be friends just...you know...from a distance.
They really should have just found out what the 3rd party apps -COULD PAY-. If it covered the cost of their usage and there was some profit on the top, it would at least bring in some money. Based on what I read by the Apollo dev, there was back and forth communication about pricing for a while until he broke the news.
It astounds me that they chose to cut them off entirely by offering impossible pricing. Isn't some money better than no money?
It's because the planned IPO. Allowing third party apps, that are better designed, show no ads and don't collect the same amount of telemetry data (seriously the official app spies constantly for user data), doesn't look good in the eyes of potential investors.
Also, the API feed doesn't push ads, so 3rd party ads don't have anything to show. Reddit should have redesigned their API so ads could get pushed out.
The idea was to kill 3rd party apps, duh.
Idk I use relay and he thinks he can do it for 3 dollars a month, but that's still giving into reddit. I'd rather then switch and start making Lemmy apps, or adapt their app over, might be unreasonable but just a thought
3 dollars a month for a lesser experience, mind. What with reddit stopping access to NSFW/explicit stuff via non-official apps.
But honestly, even if my app of choice - Sync - could do it, I'm not about to pay a corporation for content generated for free by us. The whole thing stinks of the slow slide of social media into the gutter. Happened with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit is no different.
Federated social media might take a little while to take off, but it will be so much less toxic and much more enjoyable without the ever expanding need of a corporation to deliver more and more profit at the expense of the user.
That's actually a good point. I don't mind paying for access to an app, since it costs money to maintain, but our posts draw people into the site to read advice, news, and funny stuff. If Reddit is going full-monetization, there should at least be some payment for... upvotes? Views?
Not really a good point. Servers, bandwidth and employees cost money. Even if content is generated for free, those things cost money. A reasonable price is totally fair for an ad-free experience.
This. For those that understand that standing up the infrastructure costs money, I don’t think paying a reasonable price would be out of the realm. Even the Apollo dev was stating that API should not be free, but reasonable.
I feel like there's a weird disconnect in the way that a lot of people perceive physical and digital infrastructure.
For something like a road, it's natural to assume that maintaining it costs money - after all, you can see the wear and tear on it, you can see the guys patching it, etc. Because of this, things like paying tolls are an annoyance, but most everybody accepts it as the cost of keeping things running.
For a website, though, almost everything is hidden from the end user. You don't know how the server is doing beyond "is it up or down," you don't know how big the dev team was or how many people maintain it, or what costs they incur... And so, people seem to be more prone to assuming that "it just works," without considering the costs behind it.
Right, but the content is also what draws people in. Not just the infrastructure. So if some of that money made its way back to mods and top posters then they would be feeding the community instead of charging them for the content that brings in more viewers.
Others have speculated that the API pricing model is built around customers who want to use the data for AI training, not customers who want to build apps for public use. The $20M price tag is what they're hoping a mega corp will pay for data access and don't care about anyone who can't afford that much. Some money is better than no money, but for a lot of people the "chance" at BIG money is better than some money lol
If this is the case, I don’t understand why they wouldn’t just separate into tiers, where mass data usage to feed into a language model is priced differently than people legitimately using and contributing content to the site.
they still have a lot to gain by killing the 3rd party apps and forcing the remaining users to the platform that will benefit their valuation the most. the pricing is to court the big whales to sell data to and the forcing people to use the native app is to improve the quality of the data they want to sell.
Precisely. Investors like apps because users cannot change their user experience, disable telemetry, block ads easily, and so on. They receive push notifications which drive engagement and allow easier tracking across accounts.
I think it's simply that they want to funnel all of their users to official channels. All of this "discussion" is a poorly veiled attempt at public justification. 30 days notice at the quoted price tag was very intentional. My hope is that Reddit seriously miscalculated the amount of damage this would cause. My suspicion is that /u/spez doesn't care and is willing to nuke the site for a one-time payout at maximum valuation.
This is what happens when a bunch of MBAs are detached from the product they're working on.
Hubris by the new execs they hired.
Digg used to be king. People abandoned it in droves when they went a step too far and there was an alternative. Reddit is not immune to the same thing happening to them.
The irony is reddit was that alternative to Digg.
You'd think Huffman would have the wherewithal to realize that no king rules forever.
He's too into himself to think people would leave... Yet here we are... Over here and not there
wow, what a crazy way to see it, but at the end of the day it's true.
The problem is that Reddit is much bigger than Digg ever was. They are entrenched. Getting people to switch will be difficult when all we have to offer is ”Its like Reddit but way more of a clusterfuck.”
Normies are going to take one look at the list of Lemmy instance and say ”nope.” So that leaves mostly us technical minded folks. So then, why would I use Lemmy over HN?
That's the biggest problem that I see for Lemmy’s future. We should be asking ourselves ”What can we do that other platforms cannot?” We cannot survive if we're just a clone of Reddit.
Give us "normies" a little credit. I'm not technical minded AT ALL and I'm still willing to stick around and figure out how this shit works. Do I understand it? Hardly. Does the app I'm using (Jerboa) work? Barely. (Although today's new release has improved it greatly, thanks guys!). But I'm still floundering around here and it's a bit frustrating. I'm still going to give it a go though. I'm confident that improvements will come that make it easier here for everyone like me that uses the internet a lot but doesn't really understand the internet that much.
But maybe I'm just willing to stick it out because I was only looking for an excuse to leave Reddit and the means to do so. I admit I don't really care about the recent debacle, I just miss the old Reddit of 10-15 years ago and I don't like what it's become (a place full of memes, TikTok videos, dumb jokes, and hardly any real conversation anymore). It took this most recent fiasco for people to start talking about alternatives and that's when I finally learned about the fediverse and made the move. It has been a lot easier to leave when I knew where I could go.
Precisely, you don't have to be deeply technical to understand this, you just have to be willing to put in a little bit of work.
I also found it a little complex and daunting at first as it was my first contact with the fedirverse, and I've been on the internet since pretty much the start.
We'll make it a great place to be, and other people will see the benefits and put in the same work too.
To be honest, I (as a techy myself) thought the same when I checked out Lemmy for the first time. Once I realized that most of the big instances are already federated anyway and that I can see all their posts when I browse All, my doubts were gone. It's really not that much of a hurdle, even for non tech savvy people.
Exactly. I'm a normie, and I'm here with no problem.
What's HN?
Hacker News, a link aggregator similar to oldschool reddit before subreddits were introduced. I find it often has some interesting discussions but it's not for everybody.
User education will be key. Let’s face it, old time “Redditors” will look at the simplicity of creating an account, and looking at sub-reddits and say “I’m too old to learn a new way. This is too much”.
The seniors won’t leave, and the younger who don’t follow basic tech will be in the same boat. Just look around some of the subs there - they are entrenched.
The alt-right is having a great time right now on Reddit. Tons of their posts from r/conservative on the front page.
"We are not profitable"
Says the one who wants the money of 3rd party developers.
Also not a great thing for the CEO to say right before their IPO.
Not at all. Most tech startups (if not all) are unprofitable at IPO. Plus they have to make their finances public, so it's not something that was a secret before.
I just want to point out that the article is dated 9 June, so before the actual blackout. Maybe they have changed their mind seeing the actual data
Yeah this is taken from the AMA, which was a waste of time for everyone
I was so repulsed by that AMA, what a joke. It really solidified my decision to look elsewhere. Reddit just is not Reddit anymore. Gone is that entity that lives on only in my memories. As with many things past, present and future, money tends to ruin it all for us.
Yeah, I expected the AMA to be a way to find a compromise between reddit and 3P. After reading the answers I was genuinely pissed off
There were only copy and pasted answers vetted by lawyers and PR firms.
copium
I don't need reddit. Reddit doesn't generate content, nor does it prevent contributors from sharing the same content on other platforms.
What is reddit doing to win me back?
Obligatory fuck /u/spez.
Be careful, you might be blocked by reddit \s
I really can't wait to see what's the fallout of Reddit going dark. Does the community really wield the power? Or does Reddit have another ace up its sleeve?
Yeah it's gonna be quite an interesting event. Most of reddit's newer userbase doesn't seem to care, but then again the mods of major subreddits do.
Mods can be replaced. Remember r/TheDonald? Not that I have -any- sympathy at all for those trogs, but the admin dealt with them by deleting all the mods and appointing new ones that would toe the line. There's nothing to stop them from using that playbook again. A lot of people will leave, but a lot of people will shrug and go back to posting cat pictures.
Yeah, called it. But I was hardly alone in calling it.
The real fallout will be seeing what the numbers look like after July 1st. When all the third party users are given the unavoidable choice to switch to the official app or not. If engagement goes down then and stay lower, it’s ogre for Reddit.
I’m going to try to ween myself off reddit. I added the Lemmy page to my Home Screen where Apollo used to be and deleted the reddit app. (Don’t feel like sideloading the Lemmy app). I’ll probably still be browsing with Apollo until I can’t any more. 🤷🏻♂️
Edit to add: the death of reddit will be slow. They’re going to stick to their guns, the people who actually make reddit good will move leaving only bots, scammers, and idiots. The idiots will realize they’re surrounded by idiots, while not realizing they’re idiots, and they won’t like that so they’ll try to move here. Depending on how easy it is to move to Lemmy by the time that happens will dictate how many idiots move here. I feel like the current level of difficulty sets a high enough bar to keep the idiots out… for now.
The world is ready to fully transition away from that cancerous company.
It started out great at the times of Aaron Swartz, but just as with people, cancer sometimes hits. Anyway, it influenced projects like lemmy for which I'm thankful.
Yes I'm aware of the history. The only way to kill cancer is excise it. Lemmy realistically can't take a full migration from Reddit but that needs to change. I too am super grateful. Part of me wonders if this platform could end the same way but given it's decentralised nature, I highly doubt it. Reddit was open source once. I really want this to succeed. Seize the means of communication.
One thing that worries me is Lemmy's dedication to non-advertisement funding. Lemmy will never be able to handle a ton of people without money for server space and bandwidth. I hate ads as much as anyone, but there are ways to do it that aren't intrusive or toxic or damage your integrity.
The privacy movement can't sell out to private entities or all bets are off again, I think no advertisements is wholly nessasary. I think taking out Reddit is much more achievable than many people think. Yes it will take some money and resources.
Yes, but where is that money going to come from?
The money is coming from the community, which is why progress is slow. People don't have much money. It doesn't mean we should sell the soul of the project for a quick buck. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Rome wasn't built for free either, we need some sort of financial backup. Even if it isn't advertising something needs to be in place.
As more and more people host their own federated instances it won't be as big of a problem as it was for web 2.0 legacy sites like reddit. The Fediverse really is the future.
There are ways to do advertising that works and is not annoying (or at least less annoying). Context advertising are ads that are directly related to the subject matter of interest. For example, ads from companies that are in the business of meeting the needs of the boatbuilding community would be welcome or at least tolerated in a boatbuilding community. Those same ads shown to a programming community would be less welcome, even if there happens to be significant shared membership.
For example, the paper magazine "Small Craft Advisor" recently transitioned to online only via Substack. It didn't take long for subscribers to actually complain about the loss of advertising and SCA had to respond with self-promotion articles from former advertisers.
Context advertising requires no user profiling, no user tracking, and no data collection. "Oh, you sell epoxy (or sails or plans)? Well here is a community (as distinct from a user profile) that is likely looking for what you sell and probably already discussing products in your line of business."
There is a site I am familiar with that was determined to not have intrusive ads and actually created a side business of creating ads for its advertisers that it would find acceptable on the site, which consisted of a still image of given dimensions, and a link.
When you say no data collection, you mean no personalized data collection, right? Obviously they would want to know how many times the ad was clicked.
That sounds like the kind of thing I envision.
Yes, no personalized data collection. Both sides of the ad transaction would need to track something if the placement had some kind of impressions or click-through payment system. It's been a while since I've managed a website, but I think most of that can be handled with pretty basic logging that has existed since before micro-targeted advertising was even conceived.
For a simple placement contract like we have with what few newspapers remain, the ad supplier could assess the value of the placement for themselves using standard referrer logs. Not paying its way? Don't renew the placement.
Open source and decentralized are two different things, as long as it's just a bunch of independent server instances which are small enough each to handle the traffic load you can't really buy that out.
The question is if it'll take off, more or less.
It already has.
we're here aren't we (grin). Looking forward to seeing how this plays out for sure.
yes, its origins were great, it's finale is not so great. I suspect if Aaron were alive he'd be livid. I also think reddit's demise might be the intended outcome, like BCG is at the helm or somesuch.
Unfortunately they aren't since the ones who cared couldn't be bothered for more than two days.
The death of Reddit will be a slow bleeding process. Expect waves. Not floods.
I think it will be more like the tide moving out slowly ... no one will really notice and the CEO and owners will keep telling everyone everything will be fine even as their ship sits beached on a sandbar and the water will never return.
Here's a thread where subreddit mods are announcing their subs going indefinitely dark: https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/148ks6u/indefinite_blackout_next_steps_polling_your/
First comment here. Sad to Reddit go but also it's their own fault for pushing me away
Already having a fantastic time on the fediverse. Fuck em!
I'm literally so excited to be here. Feels like we're a part of a big shift in the future of social media.
It is actually kind of exciting. A lot of people have already jumped ship, and this has a good user experience.
I wonder if advice posts will start appearing in search results.
Just shows how much reddit cares about it's users.
I guess Lemmy will be getting bigger then
Significantly xD
I hope news outlets cover Lemmy and Kbin so the masses get exposed to it. So far, most of us are "power users".
Power users is how any and all social media started. The power users make something cool, which gains momentum and draws in others.
Corporate social media has shown across the board that they are user-hostile, hence exoduses from Facebook and Twitter. (And would have happened to YouTube too if their was a viable place to go to - but I guess video hosting is a more costly challenge.)
Do you know who the primary contributors of Reddit were in terms of community member? I.e. how much do the masses contribute to Reddit, or is it mostly power users?
Just migrated here from reddit. Don't plan on going back. That platform is done.
I mean... the discussion is reddit, isn't it?
If I wanted to scroll mindlessly through the flea market of the internet, I'd open Mastodon. I often do, but, reddit is, er... was the community. The community is reddit. The memes, the jokes, the little phrases. They don't own any of that.
This Reddit board thinks they can fence people in but don't see that al of what they are is build by people that likely just go elsewhere if they're continually treated like shit
Agreed. Reddit is a burning trainwreck you can't look away from at this point. I'm not gonna be in the trainwreck, but rather I'll just watch it from here (aka lemmy)
Why? The entire community is still there. Reverse the greedy API change, allow 3rd party apps continued full access, I’d be back on Apollo in a heartbeat.
It was announced that Apollo is shutting down June 30th regardless of what reddit does. Too much bad blood now after spez’ attempted libel.
I could be tempted but none of that is going to happen. Even though this move will kill the community, it won't kill it fast enough to cause a problem. There's just too much money to be made.
WE should blackout for longer, i own a very small subreddit, but 2 days is not enough!! im not backing down tomorrow, i ask over subs do the same. lets stick it to reddit
Reddit & Twitter going crazy only few months appart, and with this attitude they deserve to vanish in trashbin of internet history
Good, I hope it crashes and burns. They forgot their origins.
Had the subs gone off for longer (2 weeks) or indefinitely, the risk of Google bots dropping links may have shaken things up more. Personally, I don’t see Reddit going anywhere. There frankly is not enough backing for a sustained enough period of time. Reddit knows tomorrow subs who joined for 2 days will re-open.
Also, I think the people who stay after the blackouts are the ones Reddit wants: the ones least likely to care about being subjected to ads and hostile UI. The ones least likely to leave or protest. The ones with least critical thinking. The ones consuming the most trivial content and guerrilla marketing. The holy grail of any money-hungry social network.
That's true, they're filtering out the people they can't bully around. Smaller population of users but you can be relatively certain about their behavior.
It's like when a scammer intentionally misspells things so that people who are more aware are filtered out off the bat.
Hopefully if there is no reaction from spez, a more severe protest will follow.
Hopefully, but somehow I doubt the same amount would join. Those that are indefinite are not enough.
Once I got Lemmy working on mobile I just deleted my reddit account straight up, a two day protest was always a stupid move. The only way to get their attention is permanently stopping the use of the platform.
Unfortunately in order to actually make a dent in anything under capitalism you simply can't partake of it at all.
I deleted my Reddit account as well. People deleting 10-year-plus accounts will make a larger statement than a couple of days of silent subs.
Reddit has control over granting mod access to new people for rebellious subs. It doesn't have control over my use or non-use of the platform.
Yep, I've had a few different accounts over the years. I tended to delete mine when I hit 100k karma and start over. My last one was barely a year old but whatever, it's gone now and they know why if they read the "why are you leaving?" Thing.
This article and quote is from june 9, before the outages. That said, I agree a planned 2 day blackout is not as powerful as an indefinite strike until plans are reversed
Here's a thread where mods are announcing that they're going indefinitely dark: https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/148ks6u/indefinite_blackout_next_steps_polling_your/
This is great news. I want federation
Yeah, at this point. All these big tech companies are succumbing to their greed.
Good that FOSS are being made to be the shelter for this wasteland that is big tech.
Ayo, fuck you spez!
Well at least they'll be more "profitable" with so many less users coming to the site and using third party apps.
Glad I've found Lemmy.
just deleted my last account. fuck em lol
And that's why this is my first comment on lemmy! Just in case Reddit eats itself.
This kind of protest is meaningless, going back online after 48 hours? It's just a way for communities to feel good about themselves. The best way to protest is to delete the account / subreddit going offline indefinitely (although I doubt the effectiveness of this)
The disrespect that the average person gets from corporations these days is fucking unbelievable. This current thing with reddit is something especially BS. ALL of the work in the various subreddits were done by the community, supported by third-party apps ALSO built by the community.
My first post on lemmy! RIP Reddit and fuck you Pez.
Because they know that ultimately the layuser will stay on reddit. Super sad to see, but maybe if subreddits like r/movies stay dark indefinitely it may push them to make at least some changes to their current stance.
If not and they just swap moderators, the outcry might be pretty bad.
Then my friend is truly dead.
I'm sticking with lemmy then
he is getting into Elon levels of denial
No we are
Denial of what though?
Captain of the Titanic: "we're sticking to our course, despite the iceberg being dead ahead"
Funny thing if they had done that and the iceberg hit frontally like the engineers planned for it would probably not have sunken the ship.
What the engineers didn't foresee was an iceberg strafing the side and cutting open too many sections for the ship to stay afloat.
Really curious to see how long the more popular subreddits will remain private. Surely the admin won't just turn them public again without having any mods, right? I kinda would love to see that dumpster fire.
Bye, bitch!
There's a stupid question I have (c/NoStupidQuestions?)
What do mods gain from reopening the subs after two days, even if demands are not met? Are they gaining money or something? Perhaps the bigger ones.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/13/23759559/reddit-internal-memo-api-pricing-changes-steve-huffman
Oh, I fucking hate CEO's.
Hey Lemmy gang. Just signed up after seeing this.
Shame they killed it like this, but fuck 'm! First comment on Lemmy 👌
Fuck spez
Is anyone surprised? The "blackout" seems to have been a total flop most subs don't give a shit.
The blackout helped me to leave.
It's difficult to rewire a dopamine pathway you've been traveling for 14 years.
Knowing that other people care enough to abstain for two days is useful in that process.
I never expected Reddit to change their policy. I have been surprised at how petulant, dishonest and unprofessional they've been. I would have expected a bland corporate response.
Anyway, onward and upward.
onward, and onto the next dopamine pathway.
Same. Not sure I would have ever heard of Lemmy otherwise.
100% same.
Not surprised, still disappointed. Will discuss with other mods the idea of nuking our community as a "fuck you" to Reddit.
Do it. For the lulz. For great justice. Move every zig.
I think it's more important to bring the subs over here to convince people to migrate
7750/8300 subreddits are blacked out. Plus the server issues caused by the blackout yesterday. I’d be interested to see if an indefinite strike could be powerful enough to reverse this plan
Wow, that’s way higher than I expected. I hope just as many people transfer over to nee platforms so we can get those communities restarted.
Reddit has MANY more than 8300 subreddits. That 8300 is the number of subreddits who SAID they would shutdown.
How did the blackout cause an error?
I expected they would see less utilization, so the servers would be coasting compared to a regular day
It was never going to do more than get people talking, the number of subreddits isn't as important as what the long term impact to users and quality will be. They have signaled their interests are not user centric, it wont be the last outrage I'm sure but they'll keep getting away with it if there isn't a clear alternative and people keep going back.
That's true. The changes don't really effect me in any immediate way, but the blackout gave me a reason to uninstall Reddit for a few days and try Lemmy.
Thanks Satan.
My Google searches are in SHAMBLES rn
Blocking mobile web access and ending old reddit is going to bring more people here over time.
I wouldn't say it was a flop. A massive number of subs and users are participating at the moment (some forced due to the blackouts). But I do agree that reddit executives definitely don't give a shit, and will eventually just start booting mods to bring the subs back if they don't fall in line.
Do you have any numbers?
https://reddark.untone.uk/
8479/8838 subreddits are private as of this comment.
The number on the page is a bit misleading. If you comb through the website's code on GitHub, you'll see that the 8,838 is actually the number of subreddits that agreed to participate in the blackout.
Calling it a flop isn't accurate either, though.
Sure, most subreddits don't care, but the largest and most active subreddits are overwhelmingly in support of the blackout, but they are also much more affected by Reddit's changes than smaller subreddits.
EDIT: Some words for clarity.
Reddit has more than 100k active subreddits lol. Also, this number doesn't mean much because community sizes vary a LOT
and most people
Yeah if they were serious, they'd go dark for good
What absolutely bends my mind is there's still confused people wandering into the blackout threads with absolutely no clue what's going on. How is this info not reaching these people?
They absolutely detest their userbase :(
I can see subs being dark becoming a permanent thing, hopefully coders update reddit to html updater or similar tools to pull from archived zsv files.
Imagine a lemmy instance with reddit's archives
they will replace the mods if the subs stay dark too long
It'll cost them though. Moderation takes a lot of manpower that they've almost gotten for free until now. And without third-party tools for moderation, it'll take even more manpower.
Perhaps, but if they just decide to be private and only allow 2 posts per day as a type of work slowdown, it would be more awkward for reddit to replace the mods.
What I don't get is who they're posturing for now.
They showed the developers that the game was fixed and there was no plan to negotiate in good faith.
They've shown the userbase they aren't responsive to strongly held concerns.
They've shown a potential IPO audience that they're capable of burning down the platform in record time and not even waiting until after they cashed out to do so.
They've shown everyone they don't even have the most basic understanding of corporate bullshit speak. It's not hard to put together "We hear your concerns and will assemble a committee of top minds who will proceed to ignore these concerns."
I guess they just want to say they didn't back down. That and $12.50 gets you a cup of coffee.
no wonder since most of the subs are only going offline for 2 days
I couldn't be the only one who found 2 days to be a ridiculously low time as well.
It's long enough to show impact and short enough that reddit will catch flak for replacing the mod teams.
It also lines up with the media attention span. On day 5 "reddit lost users during the blackout" will be a better headline than "blackout still going on fyi".
Yeah its weird that it's only two days, but also many are going private forever (though reddit will just replace the mods unfortunately)
Then the next thing to so is mass delete your posts and comments and then the account. Scorched earth and all that jazz
"Money rules everything around me" -The CEO of Reddit
I'll be interested to see if they try to keep the money happy by trying to kill porn on reddit. If they try that reddit would be in worse shape than Trump.
It's going to be an uphill battle and maybe even a siege. It's going to mean these sub-reddits are going to have to be dark for the foreseeable future if they want to make it painful for Spez and team.
I have officially migrated here from reddit, after nearly 15 years over there. This is my 1st comment and the 1st post I've viewed.
For me, it's irrelevant whether or not my decision makes a discernable impact; I simply won't support them with my traffic and won't settle for the default app. No 3rd party apps simply equates to no reddit for me.
And even if they walked back their decision regarding their API, I still wouldn't return unless there was a change in management.
I don't think reddit will walk back their decision, and I don't think they'll be going anywhere either. But I think this is a tipping point in reddit's quality as a site/community. Analogously to russia's brain drain, I believe we will see that the core of the redditors who are leaving are made up of redditors who promote a healthy functioning site/communities.
I was a very core member of several subreddits and did some moderation, but also contributed to reporting content, etc. that most users neglect, but are integral to limiting spam, trolls, and hate. It's not the users shitposting on r/funny or r/gaming that are going to leave. It's the long-time users who have been propping up this paper tiger.
If enough mods and healthy community members leave, reddit is going to devolve into a cesspool. Reddit will be hard off if they lose the free labor of mods that have propped up their site for years.
Hear, hear! And welcome to your new home :)
Well written 👍
Take my upvote sir!
Trying this out for the first time, Its honestly really similar. No Apollo app means no reddit for me, unfortunately. If Lemmy can make a good mobile app and the community grows a bit I could see being a semi-daily user here.
I've liked my experience on Jerboa for Lemmy. It looks great and feels streamlined in list view with the font size I've chosen. That's android, but there's also an ios app for lemmy.
It will be more like a downhill slide for them. Without third party apps how are mods going to moderate? There will be so much more spam, trolls, and scams, the already tenuous experience will become even worse.
If they stick with these changes they're already dead, they're just living on borrowed time.
"we're going dark for two days!" isn't going to change anything. reddit mods live for reddit. Why would they leave?
Common Lemmy Win
I'm so glad they're unwavering in their commitment to foster growth of the fediverse!
Spez personally banned me for harasent because I reported a child porn seller
simplify so they can lay off mods and let ai go on autopilot. like an automatic cow milker.
I find it funny that a 3rd party app can be "profitable" but reddit cant be profitable without alienating a sizeable chunk of their userbase.
Reddit has increasingly become a cesspit of racism and bigotry anyways, and I find Im going there less and less.
I need to get used to how lemmy works and find my 3d printing people here.
I wonder if they expect to be able to have chatGPT supply all the memes.
Just a textbook case of not knowing the free labor was the product.
Article from June 9, before the outages
Yeah, this sounds like the reddit I've come to know 😒
Man, this is so dumb; unfortunately, if they open up all the subs, people are just gonna rush back because there's no reason to try to make anything else work.
Wow they’re really doubling down. Guess this means the end of Reddit.
Kbye!
You gotta respect the dedication on some level
The thing is I don't, though. Besides, what's to respect? He's just a corporate front-man and the board and the money-men have his balls in a vice. He'll say what they tell him to or they'll take turns on the handle.
I respect him doing what’s really best for our society and killing the animal Reddit has become
Critical support for comrade spez in his struggle against Reddit!
spez was a hero...I just couldn't see it
It's all money related. The higher ups at Reddit are probably just trying to make it to an IPO so they can liquidate and make some cash.
First Lemmy comment lfg. Fuck you Spez and excited to help build this community!
Well, looks great for Lemmy!!
Fuck spez!
F
Well of course not. their mistake is that they're trying to make profit on something that's not profitable. Musk made the same mistake. Unfortunately the general mass can't comprehend the complexity (!) of multiple instances of a same platform because no one uses emails so I don't actually believe Lemmy or Kbin will become mainstream. People will slowly trickle back to Reddit once they realize they have no alternatives.
What a jerk
What a clown show. Glad I'm gone.
Fuck u/spez
Yep, lol
Looks like you may have gotten lost on your way to Truth Social Media
Judging by your downvotes, so is Lemmy world. 🙂
Reality has a liberal bias.
Haha you bet it does!
Sounds like you should stay there. You know, to trigger them.
Real life must be very scary for you. Maybe just stay in the basement
._.