Pentagon independently concluded Islamic Jihad responsible for hospital blast
President Joe Biden was asked by a reporter in Israel on Wednesday what made him confident that the Israelis weren't behind the explosion that killed hundreds at a Gaza hospital on Tuesday.
Biden responded that it was "the data I was shown by my Defense Department."
Two U.S. officials told ABC News the Pentagon independently concluded the Gaza hospital blast was likely caused by an errant Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket that fell short of its target.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-live-updates/pentagon-independently-concluded-islamic-jihad-responsible-for-hospital-blast-104070319?id=104049894Open linkView original on lemmy.world405
Comments260
I just want to respectfully remind everyone that just because this tragedy was likely not perpetrated by Israel, it does not mean they are absolved of any of the hundreds of war crimes they have already committed.
I mean, Isreal bombed that same hospital 2 days earlier, was conducting bombing campaigns in the area, ordered the evacuation of the hospital less than 24 hours before, and kept changing their story around it. It was a pretty fair assumption that it was them until more evidence was produced.
Could you please provide a source on the bombing of the same hospital 2 days earlier by Israel?
Better sources as promised:
Photos: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0JJ1N8RvGrj5uaPG5UMpLGGagUnDsDNozTXS66YsD3WMP5TDCygo5s6DmcL9u1gV1l&id=1044285492
NY Times (mentioned towards the end of the article): https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-explained.html
NPR (midway): https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206795861/heres-the-available-evidence-of-what-happened-at-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza
https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx
Sorry for the weird source, I grabbed it from Wikipedia. I could try to find something more reputable later today. It's hard to find sources on every specific bombing, as they've dropped many thousands in the past week.
Edit: This is anglicannews because the Anglican Church runs the hospital, so this is actually about as direct a source as we're gonna get. (I see that part in the headline now, I was tired when I found this earlier)
Israel was asking every place that had civilians in the north, including this hospital, to evacuate them south. Which itself is highly problematic, but the warnings were not specific to this hospital.
They specifically asked for hospitals to be evacuated in addition to the general evacuation order
You know multiple groups of people can be wrong at the same time right
Are both of you people even capable of saying anything which isn't a question GOD-DAMN
They killed multiple journalists earlier this week and killed at least 6 in a strike on a school and this hospital debacle has drowned all of that out.
Can we hold hamas (and palestine for giving them a holdout) for their war crimes, or is your logic only one-way?
No, people here are incapable of thinking in anything other than black-and-white
You speak the truth, even if it was meant to be sarcastic.
Yeah, because condemning one side means you cant condemn the other...
This is why I asked haha
Yeah, is there any place in southern Gaza that isn't packed full of the people they told to move there from the north for 'safety'?
You rather they stay on top of the Hamas terror tunnels Israel is targeting? Hamas would like that.
Lmao, “terror tunnels”
The goal of palestinian nationalists is literally the same thing with the roles reversed. I fail to see a difference apart from the fact that Israel is stronger and we're more critical towards it since it's a democracy and should know better.
Palestinians are brutalized on a daily basis. Their land was stolen after WW2 then slowly usurped and terrorized while the world kept funding Israel. That was originally palestinian land, and there were even jewish communities in that palestinian land. Now it is an ethnostate that lets new yorkers take some guy's ancestral home because he's of the correct ethnic category.
e: it's quite strange to have to explain to people why a genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid is bad.
Palestine as a country has never existed and Jews have as much of a historical claim to the regions as Palestinians do.
So for you, a millennia of history, distinct cultures, and dialect are meaningless. People who migrated and forcibly colonized in 1948, with no connection to the region or land have as much of a claim to it as an ethnicity who has lived there for centuries.
So if that's your argument do you just believe that israel has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter palestine? Genuine question.
Have you never heard of middle eastern Jews? Genuine question
I don't believe my comment indicated that. I simply don't believe that Palestine has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter Israel either.
There are things that Israel did that I strongly disagree with, in recent history most of them are connected to West bank settlements. There are more things that I disagree with that Palestine did. I think that the 1948 UN proposed 2-state solution would have been more than reasonable, and it would have likely put Palestine into a much better position than it's in now, but one can't change the past. We'll see if Israel government becomes more reasonable and thinks of a more current lasting solution, but I'm not holding my breath.
Why do you think so? Jews also lived in the area, and the ones who came later afaik generally migrated and purchased their land legally, with the exception of migration during WW2, which was not legal, but imo pretty understandable since it was literally done by refugees running from the holocaust. People argue that it wasn't kosher since the region was under British control, but before that it was under the control of Osmans and before that the region was afaik under control of someone who conquered it for most of its history. It has never been a country.
Obviously this doesn't give Israel a claim over the whole region, but I don't think they have any less of a right for existence than Palestine.
The problem I have with this narrative isn't who dropped the bomb. Tbh they're probably right it was a Palestinian missile. It's the sheer audacity for all these western countries to be shocked and say let's figure this out, as Israel just dropped like 6000 bombs in 6 days. They're worried about one bomb but not the 6000 others, cause ya know, those were killing only Hamas and not injured people in a hospital /s.
While the Muslim world looks on in horror at more bombing in a conflict that has been going on for decades, the western world is focused on insignificant details. Who carried out what attack. Who dropped what bomb. Which act is more morally reprehensible. None of this solves the problem of a displaced people. Only the US can pressure Israel to accept a two state solution. That's the only peaceful solution possible for this conflict imo. The other solution is to wipe out Gaza and the West Bank and everyday we're getting closer to that.
Misinformation on the scale of "a building was destroyed that clearly is still intact" deserves focus. If they'll lie about shit that can be confirmed with a tiny bit of research, what else is getting exaggerated?
A two-state-solution doesn't work in part because extremist Muslim groups want the are to be purely Muslim. They would continue to attack Israel with terror tactics, Like they did from the start. What is your solution to that?
Swap Muslim with Jewish and Israel with Palestine and it's the same problem... to be clear I think both are true but it's kinda weird to single one out.
I single them out because the extremist Muslim groups on Palestinian side have openly admitted, repeatedly, that the goal ist to exterminate all Jews from the area and make it a pure Muslim country.
If you have some sources that show the same was said from Israeli side about Palestine, please show me. Because what I see in this conflict is not as simple as people like to make it out to be. It's not just evil colonizers trying to snag land from a victim country that wants a two-state-solution.
Yeah, the people of Palestine haven't exactly been pushing for a two state solution and they back/vote in groups that want to exterminate the jews and enforce Sharia law wherever they can.
Even if Israel wanted a two state solution they're not going to get it. Not until Palestinians can come up with a functional government that isn't made up of a group that has genocide as one of their stated political goals.
And I mean actual genocide, the attempt to end a genetic lineage through violence, not the "genocide" of lemmy which essentially just means "cultural disruption/assimilation", a widening of definition that allows them to pretend that it's equal on both sides cause "they're both committing genocide!"
It's kind of funny to me listening to people who advocate for separate states. I mean, sure, do it. But don't expect that to stop religious zealots from firing peace rockets at each other.
It won't stop anything, a two state solution is a joke.
The best case scenario now is for Palestinians to assimilate into other Muslim countries, it's not ideal but it's probably the way fewest people will die.
Sorry man, it's not a "Lemmy" definition, that's literally a type of genocide as defined by the UN.
Yes, the definition is vague: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
It hinges on "intent", which needs to be inferred and interpreted. It includes terms like "in whole or in part", and does not specify how many "members of the group" are the lower limit.
However, the main point of R0cket_M00se still stands. There is a significant width in the spectrum of acts and intents which can be classified as genocide, with Hamas proudly on the upper end.
If the word you choose to describe forced cultural assimilation and mass slaughter for the intended purpose of annihilating an entire group of people based on their race are the same, your definition is useless.
That's like calling a playground fight between kids attempted murder, it makes the word worthless when you water it down to mean any violence at all.
So not a defense of Hamas but because you ask. Here are a few news articles demonstrating genocidal action by Israeli government or calls for genocide by political/religious leaders in Israel. In addition there was a real chance of a two state solution with the Olso Accords but they were never completed with the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in 1995 by hard right Israelis opsed to any peace agreement.
I am sure that there are plenty more examples, they tend to just be not as widely reported. Also because someone is going to say something. Both the wide spread killing or the wide spread displacement of the group of people is genocide.
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14836.doc.htm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60197918
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan
The Facebook post from the article with with translation below(Google translate)
https://www.facebook.com/MFeiglin/posts/695450140534104
in her in honor of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Mr. Prime Minister It has just become known that Hamas took advantage of the ceasefire to kidnap an officer. It turns out that this sale is not going to end so soon. The failures of the operation were inherent in it from the beginning because: A - He does not have a correct and clear goal. B - There is no proper moral envelope that supports our soldiers. What is required now is to realize that Oslo is over, that this is our country - only our country, including Gaza! There are no two countries and no two peoples - there is only one country for one people. As a result of this internalization, a deep and fundamental strategic change is required - both in the definition of the enemy, both in the definition of the mission, both in the definition of the strategic target and of course - in the definition of the correct and necessary fighting ethics. 1 - Defining the enemy The strategic enemy is radical Arab Islam in all its metastases from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to eliminate all of Israel. The enemy in sight is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets - Hamas) 2 - Defining the task: The occupation of the entire strip and the elimination of all the fighting forces and their supporters. 3 - Defining the strategic goal: turn Gaza into Jaffa. A flourishing Israeli city with a minimum of hostile citizens. 4 - Definition of fighting ethics: "Woe to the wicked and woe to his neighbor" In light of these four points, Israel must immediately carry out the following actions: A - The IDF will define open areas on the Sinai border and close to the sea where the civilian population will be concentrated - away from the built-up area and the launch and tunnel areas. Tent camps will be set up in these areas until relevant immigration targets are located. The supply of electricity and water to areas that were inhabited will be cut off. B - The areas that were populated will be bombarded with maximum firepower. All civilian and military Hamas facilities, means of communication and logistics - will be completely destroyed. C - The IDF will cut the strip lengthwise and wide, greatly expand the axes, take control of controlled areas and destroy the nests of resistance if any remain. D - Israel will begin locating countries and immigration quotas for Gaza refugees. Those interested in immigrating will receive a generous financial aid package and will arrive in the receiving countries with significant financial capacity. E - Those who insist on staying and prove that they have no connection to Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel and will receive a blue identity card similar to that of East Jerusalem Arabs. And - with the end of the fighting, the Israeli law will be applied in the entire strip, the deportees of Gush Katif will be invited to return to their settlements and the city of Gaza and its daughters will be built as Israeli tourist and commercial cities for all intents and purposes. Mr. Prime Minister! This is a moment of fateful decision in the days of the State of Israel. All enemy factions, from Iran and Hezbollah to Daesh and the Muslim Brotherhood - are now rubbing their hands with pleasure and preparing themselves for the next round. I warn you that any result that is less than what is defined here means encouraging the continuation of the offensive against Israel. Only if Hezbollah understands how Hamas was treated in the south, will it refrain from launching its 100,000 missiles - from the north. I urge you to adopt the strategy suggested here. I have no doubt that like me, the entire nation of Israel will overwhelmingly stand to your right - if you only dare. With great respect and appreciation Moshe Feigli
Did you read those articles? The first two don't address or hint at genocidal plans from Israel against the ethnic group "Palestinian" at all. The third article is about one (!) extremist politician who's party didn't even get into the parliament because they didn't have enough votes. That actually goes against your notion that Israels goal is a genocide against Palestinians.
This is not about disputing war crimes from Israel. It's specifically about the question whether or not Israel wants an ethnical cleansing on Palestinians. And that this is the reason for the actions from their side.
Not sure what you want? Are you hoping that Bebe put at a press release where he details the plan to commit genocide? That politician is a member of the ruling Likud party and yes he is extreme but that just means he is more likely to say the quiet part out loud.
Article 2 of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide details what the international definition of genocide is. It going to be very hard to find new or governments using the word. Because it means that then one needs to act on it or there is a implied complicity to the genocide. So you just need to ask your self do these actions rise to genocide? Because you wouldn't hear western news or politicians saying regardless of how bad it gets.
New article about the Center for Constitutional Rights using the word genocide. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ccr-accuses-israel-of-genocide-against-palestinians-alleges-us-complicity/ar-AA1ivib9
https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/national/the-weight-of-genocide-why-leaders-are-hesitant-to-use-the-word
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide
There isn't a solution and just to be clear proto Israelis take part in a civilian bombing campaign inside of mandatory Palestine because they also do not believe any other religion should exist.
If you're going to paint a picture don't just throw shade at one when both deserve it.
How do you explain 20 % of Israel citizens being Palestinian, when Israel supposedly want Palestinians to not exist?
Concessions for image, apparently it's fairly effective given your response.
I don't know, most of the papers in the UK led with a front page item on how Israel had killed 500 people by bombing a hospital. So if that wasn't actually true, it's quite important.
I doubt that Rishi Sunak speak correctly.
This is the most global headline nơw.
If you have a little deep heart inside, you can think twice. See what difference between two sides. Who is support Israel, the world's most powerful militaries that every country don't want take risk to war with. Then, who is support Palestine. There is many country but still behind.
The latest statistics on the Israel-Palestine conflict as of October 19, 2023, are as follows:
Gaza: Killed: At least 3,478 Injured: Over 12,065 Occupied West Bank: Killed: At least 69 Injured: More than 1,300 Israel: Killed: At least 1,403 Injured: At least 3,800
These figures have been reported by the Palestinian health ministry, Palestine Red Crescent Society, and Israeli Medical Services. Please note that these numbers are subject to change as the situation evolves.
And what the trembling moments 1 child killed in Gaza every hour. Precisely more than that. 😥
When 12 of The Council drafted a statement calling for a ceasefire on Wednesday, but the statement was vetoed by the US. WHAT THE F***
Millions of lives hang in the balance, including the 2.3 million civilians half of whom are children in Gaza civilians in Israel, and Jews and Muslims around the world.
I can write more but let just world knows who is the really war criminal.
You don't have to be Muslim to support Palestine 🇵🇸 ... you just have to be HUMAN ... 😥
what can third parties do to reduce or eliminate Hamas's hold on Palestine?
I'm all for Palestinian rights, and the constant encroachment of fundamentalist settlements is a war crime that went unpunished for Israel - but Hamas's charter is explicit, there's no middle ground or two state solution, just the destruction of Israel.
So how can third parties help the Palestinians in the one way that would make a significant difference in their QOL and interactions with Israel?
Honest question.
stop funding Israel?
so make Israel an easier target for the many countries that agree with Hamas and think it should be destroyed?
pfft. did you even read the question? How the fuck does that stop Hamas, if anything it would embolden them. How does that help Palestinians wanting a future without a genocidal fuckwit club running their country?
You're not going to get any magical solution because Israel is a country founded on stolen land by entitled religious extremists. People always leave that part out when they talk about this situation.
and yet they all believe in their invisible friends and holy books so much.... ironic that.
funny how you're leaving out the near extermination of their people and world recognition of their state, kinda glossing over most of history even. guess you decided to leave those parts out too. It's almost as if both sides are completely full of shit.
Huh.
You also can support Palestinian people and genuinely want their liberation, but have zero love for Hamas or IJ.
Okay well I'm not sure what most of this says, and I know better than to engage in Israel-Palestine discourse online.
The reason for the focus is that it was deliberately being used in a disinformation campaign. Were that not the case, I think you're right that it would have faded into the background noise as just one bomb among 6000 others.
It's almost like they went through two attempts to end their people in a twenty-ish year period of time.
Part of the problem is that Hamas won't accept a two state solution, either. The people in power on both sides have made it clear that they want the other eradicated. If Hamas and the Israeli government were to disappear then maybe that could happen, but even then there is so much deep rooted hatred amongst those populations for them to realistically live in relative peace while being in such close proximity to each other.
I don't honestly know of a great solution besides Israel replacing their government, and the ultra nationalistic conservative half of the Gaza strip moving out, or vice versa.
People "fighting for their homeland" rarely just give up. And you've got two sides who earnestly believe they're doing just that.
There's no peace here. Northern Ireland managed it, but the body counts and level of violence aren't even remotely comparable. It took Israel and Palestine about a week to blow through what The Troubles took 40 years to kill.
Each time it kicks off we in the West wonder how we could solve it. We can't. It's not our problem to fix. We certainly had a hand in making it but it's an impossible tangle of blood, bodies and beliefs that nobody can undo.
The world's media looks on but we're mostly just rubbernecking. Few of us have any skin in the game. Takes our mind off our own shit countries I suppose.
There is no two sides. One foreign people wanted another people's land, and they used some past ancestry / religious fanaticism / racism to commit atrocities in the process of stealing the land.
Burying the Nakba: How Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs
Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew
When former IDF soldiers and Holocaust survivors take a firm anti-Zionist stance, it's probably because the Zionist side is shit.
Breaking the Silence is also an Israeli organization composed of IDF veterans giving testimonies such as the IDF using ambulances to conceal combatants or using human shields.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
former IDF soldiers
Holocaust survivors
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You will not achieve peace by totally dismissing one party at the table. You have not proposed any solutions or even a path to a solution.
You have only encouraged more violence by pointing fingers.
Blocked for posting pro-genocide comments.
Even now, my brain won't ever wrap its head around modern countries like Ireland and N. Ireland feeling the need for things like "peace walls" between neighbors.
Your comment sums up a lot of my feelings: a true peace can't be forced from the outside. It's way too complicated and emotional for simplistic shit. And you can see it in the comments around here too. Everyone's wrapped up in intense anger, blame, and reciting the litany of past horrors as justification for new ones.
In fairness, most of the people in Gaza have been born and raised in an era where the strip is their homeland. They've never experienced a settlement, they've been ruled by Palestinians their whole lives and the borders were the same as the 1967 ones.
Yeah it's so fair that they get to live in an open air prison that's been under blockade for 20 years. You make it sound like Gaza is a functioning country.
An objectively ineffective blockade based on the amount of rocket fire coming out of Gaza.
Also worth saying that the two sides in Northern Ireland, although originally sundered on the basis of sectarian religion, still shared a suite of cultural commonalities inasmuch as they were all basically from Ireland and the British Isles and had similarly bad teeth, cock-eyed inbred ugliness together with a generalized dislike of anyone perceived as an outsider, but.
I like your take. Most actors involved in this conflict have tunnel vision and that will only lead to more violence.
Even some victims of Hamas' violence are calling on TV for reflection instead of seeking revenge. Revenge only feeds a never-ending cycle of violence with no end in sight. Israel's Government will have to own up to having allowed/encouraged Hamas with the single purpose of derailing two-state efforts and that has failed horribly.
Or, you know, a solution that isn't imposed by western colonialists, maybe? But by the sovereign people that inhabit the region?
https://www.youtube.com/live/Iir51O3JMqc
Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.
It really doesn't matter what you call them or how you feel about it, Israel is in the position to call the shots and the US is their most influential ally on this. Israel isn't going to magically go the peaceful route without external pressure, and you have to be fucking joking to think they care what Palestinians care.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/live/Iir51O3JMqc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
what makes you think anything would change if nobody did anything? of course there needs to be an external pressure to change something about the situation. otherwise israel will just keep on decimating palestine population and it will end with a singular state. is that what you want?
I added an Al Jazeera video argument of a single state. It is not a defense of the zionist fundamentalist terrorists state.
It's a defense of a multi ethnic state, run by the people for the people.
If nobody did anything maybe in 50 years the social indexes may improve by collective work of the people that live there, and know the right priorities, like Vietnam is recovering after the US simply stopped bombing the shit out of that land.
He was asked on the street by a random reporter.
His quote includes "likely"
For the last couple years Bidens off the cuff remarks haven't exactly been reliable.
Yet people are treating this as an official stance of the US Government...
I’ll take what the president says as the stance of the US government, and I don’t think that’s remotely unreasonable…
If he’s making mistakes with off the cuff remarks, then he needs to stop making off the cuff remarks.
It's certainly more likely to be the correct way if looking at it than it was a few short years ago.
Well, the president is stopping short of saying it was Hamas yet, so there you go.
Nobody thinks it was Hamas. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is a different Iran-supported group.
No one from the US government has said it was anyone...
Just "it doesn't look like Israel is responsible"
Yet people are acting like it's undeniable proof...
Good enough for me.
A week ago Biden said he saw beheaded babies
The same people who jumped on the Israel definitely bombed that hospital bandwagon are now so sure that nothing short of 100% proof could ever sway them
Biden's been making stupid off the cuff remarks since the 80s, it's practically what he's known for.
"Iraq has WMD's" is a similar statement, backed by an entire administration, that also led to unnecessary deaths.
Its a political statement, because if Israel did attack the hospital, then that's another outright war crime right after Israel was threatened by Jordan, Lebanon, and Iran.
Uh, did you miss this part?
The embedded tweet:
So the investigation isn't concluded, there might not have even been an official investigation, and all they're saying is Israel "isn't responsible".
None of what OPs headline claims.
That's a tweet from the white house national security council. That's completely independent of the article's claim that two pentagon officials gave them info.
So those two officials haven't officially said it...
And even if they did say it to journalists, there's nothing to back it up?
What exactly are you trying to get at? I've literally rebuked every claim you've made, but your stance just seems to boil down to "they are lying."
Many antivaxers and trump supporters have thought the same thing...
Lmao okay buddy. Good job not answering my question.
Wow shocker the pentagon is defending its close partner in the war. Ill beleive them when they actually release evidence not just "The pentagon said so."
Out of anything this is the strangest complaint. Why wouldn't he answer a street reporter?
Because Biden's biggest fans have spent years defending his misspeaking by saying his stutter makes him get words mixed up when he's randomly asked questions...
So when he's stopped to get asked a random question, we need to wait a day or two to see if that's what he really meant to say, or if his stutter made him somehow say the wrong words again.
If the administration comes out with a revision or clarified updated statement then I’ll likely accept that too. For now, words out of the presidents literal mouth are as much of an official statement that I need.
Must have been a confusing seven years for you then...
Which seven years are you referring to?
The most recent seven...
I didn't think I needed to specify that
Admittedly Biden is old and boring and sometimes confusing. Trump was a gaslighter whose words also represented the office, but that I couldn’t trust.
I don’t have to wake up worrying about some dangerous shit that Biden tweeted though. I’ll take this any day of the week.
Both of those estimates come from Hamas sources (well the 1000 people one IDK where you got that from).
JFC people you can criticize Israel without gobbling up a terrorist organization's fat propaganda dick. For now we just have no way to know how many people died in that hospital. Find another war crime to criticize Israel for, they're not that hard to come by.
Yeah if they'd said a dozen people died I'd believe it. That crater looked like a stick of TNT went up, not a 2000 pound bomb.
If it has exploded directly overhead in the center of 500 people packed like sardines I don't think it could have killed more than a couple dozen.
Ooh gotcha. Unfortunately I've read some wild conspiracy theories about this in the last few days so I immediately thought this was more of the same... sorry lol
Yeah, the hospital wasn't filled with civilians hurt/running away from bombings after Israel told them to run away because they're gonna bomb them again.
No way it would have had +500 humans in there.
But the hospital wasn't hit, the parking lot was.
The parking loot is a part of the hospital.
Does it seem out of this world to you that there would be +500 humans in the parking lot of a hospital in a crisis like this?
Yes, that might be the case under the current circumstances. The above picture helped to imagine what 500 people look like crammed squarely in a space. I doubt the 500 hypothetical people resting in the parking lot were placed more tightly than that.
Next, look at pictures of the detonation crater, which has the size of a sewer manhole. Imagine that explosion going off in the middle of the audience of 500 people. Would they all die from that? The sheer amount of body mass and flesh would shield the people in rows 20+ from the explosion.
I bet you couldn't kill 500 people with whatever exploded there, if you tied them directly onto the bomb, or rocket, or whatever. Is there any precedent of a terrorist attack or military strike or anything which killed that many people with a similarly small explosion?
You can't imagine people running away from being bombed being more tightly packed than people attending a conference?
Yes, it seems absolutely impossible. 500 people is a massive number.
You have never seen a parking lot as big as the conference in your image?
You can't possibly imaging 500 hundred humans running from being bombed staying together in a parking lot of a hospital that is smaller than the conference in your images? You can't imagine that at all?
I'm sure that some valets manage to get "parking loot"
Are you making fun of this tragedy?
I don't consider the Pentagon to be a reliable source for information when they have a vested interest in the conflict. Remember when they said Saddam Hussain had "weapons of mass destruction" which was used to justify the Iraq invasion? Well there never were any. The Pentagon manufactured that disinformation, and media parroted it like loyal puppets.
Yeah why are people believing this? I'm sure someone will quietly peddle it back just like they did with the "40 beheaded babies" lie. This is blatant information warfare.
What vested interest does the DoD have in this conflict?
The US State Department has a long-standing strong alliance with the Israelis. Billions of dollars of weaponry is sold to the Israeli military yearly, with a direct profit for the US defense industry.
Israeli airstrikes killing civilians hasn't stopped weapon sales before, so why would the pentagon lie about this one instance?
Same as any other conflict.. maintain the interests of US govt. and by extension rich oligarchs who have the house and Senate in their pockets.
Pentagon. The security agency of the country vetoing ceasefire agreement in the UN security council, in favour of Israel attacks.
Independently of whom, exactly?
We have investigated ourselves and found nothing suspicious.
I mean. Fuck both. But fuck Hamas more.
Nah, fuck both is enough. I will never support jihadists and I will never support apartheid states.
I'll drink to that.
This reads like: "we investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong"...
Yeah, the CIA famously never lies about this stuff on behalf of their country's military interests!
Is Islamic Jihad distinct from Hamas?
Yes, you can usually find it abbreviated as PIJ and supposedly has ties to Iran
It is a different group. How much they align with each other and/or cooperate, I do not know.
Hamas is the closest thing to a real government that Palestine has. Hamas has stated a willingness to accept a 2 state solution, they used to want all the land back but now they just want peace. Some countries like NZ take the time to differentiate between Hamas (not terrorists, political arm) and Qassam Brigades (the terrorist military arm of Hamas).
As far as I have read PIJ is just terrorist who wanna kill all Israelis.
Hamas is a violent terrorist group whose sole aim is to visit suffering on Israel and it's people.
The Palestinian Authority is the closest thing to a government that Palestine has and, while it's corrupt and ineffective, it's leagues better than Hamas which runs Gaza as a violent gang.
And here we go with the latest attempt at propaganda to make Hamas look like the victims. Yeah, what you said is full of lies. Especially the part about Hamas wanting any kind of solution where Israel exists.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders
If they (Hamas) really wants two state solutions he would not have blown up Israel indiscriminately.
Remember when we almost had peace but then a Kahanist assassinated Rabin?
Sounds like a very distant fairy tale.
So how is it even related with the issue at hand again? Another make up link of two unrelated incidents?
So kind of like Sinn Féin vs the IRA, this makes sense.
you mean the hospital parking lot?
The video seems pretty clear tbh. An aircraft dropping bombs would be quite loud, and a missile would be visible.
Which video was this?
Colin Powell has entered the chat.
I haven't seen anything personally convincing, there's a photo of a pothole that's supposed to prove something I guess?
And the US government has a long and costly history of making up accusations against Arab Muslims.
I'm not sure if you've seen the videos released by IDF of them bombing Gaza, but those bombs literally bring down entire buildings. They're massive. If one like that fell on the hospital parking lot there would be a huge hole in the ground and the buildings around would be obliterated. Also if it was JDAM it would not have hit the parking lot unless for some reason that's what they were targeting. It's a guided bomb unlike the unguided rockets Hamas is using. JDAMs are accurate to 10 meters or so.
He been stroking it from the hallway
If anyone made it as far as the third sentence in the article, they might notice that "Islamic Jihad" in the title refers to "Palestinian Islamic Jihad".
They're not blaming Hamas for this incident. PIJ is a separate organisation.
US have always been Israel's ambassador. Nothing new here.
Not to mention the damning word here is " likely "
An area that's small, and they don't have it under 24/7 digital and visual surveillance? Doubtful
Ah, if the CIA says it's true, I'm sure they're neutral and definitely not trying to push an agenda. The CIA famously never lies about the military capabilities of organisations against US interests.
Seriously, you all fucking believe this? Shame on you all for your lack of pattern recognition skills.
The CIA isn't part of the Pentagon
And you were born yesterday
I mean, it doesn't appear to be out of the range of their other ordinance. Cars burnt out but Clay tiled awning still uncracked, road appears drivable. Unless you're still working with the outdated information that this was an airstrike that killed ~500
If Israel was going to blow up a hospital, they would have done a better job. It's pretty much the same blowback for partially and completely destroying one.
https://www.newsweek.com/mysterious-case-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-262086
Well heres one hospital strike in 2014 that the consensus is they are responsible for, and again it was a strike that hit off to the side and they claimed someone else did. So in the case where this would have been Isreals fault, it would look very similar to another hospital strike they did do.
They even used the same excuse blaming Gaza terror organizations, not Hamas directly.
Hamas has fired hundreds of rockets towards Israel. (Pretty much all of them seem to have been blown out of the sky by the "iron dome" defense system.)
ITT: I don't need evidence I get my information straight out of the Xitter
Yeah all that evidence they have put forward to support this claim...... But the US defense department would never lie right?
I get the cynicism, but you have to trust someone. The DOD for all its faults has vastly more credibility than Hamas.
It's more that from what I've seen that's pubmically available and both sides reactions to the incident I'm inclined to believe it was Israel.
i believe Hamas would do it on purpose just to make Israel look bad.. it probably wasn't even a mistake.. i mean, they use their own people as meat shields all the time, it wouldn't be a surprise if they bombed their own kids..
Israel doesn't need help to look bad, fucking despicable.
gaza is about the size of jersey and one of the most crowded cities in the world. if you shoot 1 ton missiles into a crowd of people to hit one target, chances are you are going to hit more than just your target
Israel is the size of New Jersey. Gaza is something like 140 Sq miles.
they would do it on purpose
or perhaps israel kills people on purpose when shooting those missiles?
it doesn't matter what else, perhaps.. i know Hamas would do it, just to intensify the conflict.. and so does everyone else..
Yeah, I don't think so.
You can think whatever you like, but that means you either have to ignore all the evidence indicating that you're wrong, or you have to have additional evidence to prove you're right. You not liking something doesn't count as evidence.
You don't need counter -evidence if you recognize the source as unreliable and biased, which it is.
The fact that you choose to take the US government at face value doesn't mean anyone else has to.
I don't understand people who do that, to be honest.
They have repeatedly lied to their own citizens about health and safety. There are multiple channels dedicated to talking about the superfund sites within the US. Most of the time, the people who lived in these horribly toxic areas were lied to by the government, and were told that they were safe. It has led to a large number of injuries, deaths, and deformities. The government regularly refused to acknowledge the harm until it was way to late to stop the people from being afflicted. I would never fully trust someone who allowed children to play in lead dust, and I especially wouldn't trust someone who told them it was safe to do so.
I know my country's government wouldn't be much better to trust at face value, realistically. So, I don't.
Historically, blindly trusting a government can turn out very badly. The people in office are human, so it only makes sense that some of them may be corrupt.
Trust the US intelligence and defense capabilities bro. They never fake data or mislead the public. This is not like the time in the past when they fake information to justify foreign policies.
Firstly, there is plenty of evidence that counters the claim. Secondly, your willingness to believe the US security state at its word is evidence in itself of how many of you people are susceptible to propaganda.
I reached independently the same conclusion before these news sites which you can verify by going thru my post history. This is not me taking their word for it. They're just confirming my prior analysis.
If you have evidence to the contrary I'm interested in seeing it.
Could you share your insights on how you made your conclusion?
You can find the video/picture evidence in my comment history from few days ago.
There's videos from several different angles showing a rocket salvo being fired from Gaza towards Israel where you can see the explosion at the hospital. It was most likely a malfunctioning unguided rocket from fired by Hamas. The bombs Israel is using are much bigger and guided meaning if they had targeted the hospital they would've also hit the hospital and there would be nothing left of it. Now all we have is few burnt cars on a parking lot where the rocket hit with no even visible crater on the ground. That damage perfectly matches the kind of damage caused by their mostly home-made rockets.
Then there's also the initial claims about "leveled hospital building" and "500 people dead" but recent aerial images shows the hospital still very much intact. Also intentionally targeting a hospital while under immense scrutiny from international media doesn't seems like the smartest thing to do.
Okay, I have seen some compiled sources that show that israyel is continuously changing their narrative. That's the only evidence I have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60EK-3-kGLI
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=60EK-3-kGLI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Well that is suspicious, I'll admit that. However I doubt the advisor for prime minister has real time access to information about military operations so it's most likely that his comments on it are based on news/social media sources that later turned out to be incorrect.
Source
Man I can't wait 60 years for the DoD or CIA to declassify these documents that show otherwise.
Seriously you should check out some of the stuff the CIA has declassified. Some insane involvement and coverups of so many incidents, wars, overthrows, uprisiings, etc.
I even learned Chuck Yeager had his personal beechcraft bombed by the IAF, and he was so pissed that he listed it as a PAF loss in his 1971 war report lol. He also confirmed PAF's 3:1 k/d, and interviewed all the captured IAF pilots.
All back when Nixon was running the show, so who knows what other stuff went down.
I'm just gonna say this:
For a parking lot that was directly hit by a rocket, the cars barely moved and stayed intact more than United 93, the buildings right next to said parking lot stood stronger than the World Trade Center, and I've seen potholes bigger than the crater they found.
Now that biden has left the area the media will change the narrative again because more and more evidence coming forward shows that it wasn't a hamas rocket that did it
https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057
and just listen to this sound:
https://twitter.com/citizenjournos_/status/1714454679394951567
This wouldn't be the first time that either side denies the attack, and months later the truth comes out.
My first assumption is that the aggressive occupying genocidal regime is lying, but that video shows that they can't see a rocket that did it but if it was a misfire from the ground we wouldn't see it either. So I cant see how this is definitive.
Regardless of who did it Israel regularly kills civilians anyway so they are still cunts.
It's obviously not definite. But neither is Israel's evidence , which is the same evidence.
I think israel and the USA know, they have eyes everywhere, satellites, starlink, awacs, drones. There is definitely proof of who did this. Since israel has failed to provide that proof, i tend to believe they want to hide the truth until a later date when it won't matter anymore.
I'm on board to think the worst of Israel at any given moment, in fact even if this wasn't them it is still as a result of their policies and actions as an apartheid regime committing a genocide.
Fuck the US for appeasing Jewish Hitler.
And the US’s official statement was that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and we needed to invade. Sure…
It was also their official statement that Russia was going to invade Ukraine.
The intelligence agencies actually concluded that Iraq might have weapons of mass destruction. It was the Bush administration that spun it as a certainty and created the lie that they definitely had them.
You mean to tell me there hasn't been President America running things for 200+ yrs straight?
Uncle Sam has been pulling the strings all this time
Since this discussion comes again and again and again, here a Crosspost from a similar thread that shows the „morning after“:
So this here is the current view on the area where supposedly about 500 people died. Also there are allegedly more than 300 wounded.
Questions I personally have:
Most of those cars don't even have displaced metal like an explosion, most of it is charred in a secondary fire. Plus what infrastructure does Palestine have to clear the supposed 500+ bodies? Do they have a first world crisis response group hiding somewhere?
I'd say less then a couple dozen could have possibly died given the impact crater and damage, and that's assuming all cars were loaded with people and they got instantly trapped and burned to death which probably didn't happen.
There's so many points of "this seems unlikely" on the Hamas side that it's not worth taking them seriously about it. It's propaganda through and through. We have more than enough actual documented war crimes from Israel that this "boy who cried wolf" shit is just going to exacerbate their victimhood through discrediting the very real things that they have done wrong as being "probably also propaganda."
Yeah but this time there's video
USA is directly involved on the conflict with more than 5000 soldiers ready, believe in this is like believing in Belarus statements about Ukraine war.
BBC does not found any evidence of the attack from any side but al Jazeera had a live stream that shows a rocket comming from Israel at the same time.
This argument that the blast site does not appears to be from a Israel's warhead is shit. Israel would not target a Hospital directly and this could be a piece of the rocket that broke off.
https://slrpnk.net/post/3200423
Israel doesn't use rocket artillery, Al Jazeera is about as unbiased a source as China Daily and Russia Today, that is 100% paid propaganda for the dumbest people around.
Qatar sure is. I wonder which government runs AJ...
Al jazeera is one of the most credible and reliable news agencies in the world. It's nothing like rt or China daily and certainly better than anything US has. But obviously one should not go to al jazeera for news about the middle east.
Al Jazeera is owned by the state of Qatar, the same Qatar that is probably the biggest donor to Hamas in recent decades.
Thanks for this commonly known information, but that changes nothing to what I've previously said.
Certainly never listen to any of their Arabic reporting. You might be in for a shocker.
Yeah, BBC is also completely biased.
And calling Al Jazeera biased?
Dafuq are you talking? You come here, spit a lot of shit baseless and call it a day, average internet user.
Palestinians lie, and the world blames Jews, then the world targets Jews, and when the truth finally comes out, no one apologizes, the hurt and blood cannot be rescinded, because "The Jews deserved it anyway"
The IDF has launched missiles at hospitals and schools in the past, and then claimed that they were "Hamas strongholds".
They have no credibility. A fact that Hamas is actively exploiting. Not that Hamas has any credibility, either.
By being equally as un-trustworthy.
I've seen more people blaming muslim/palestine for this war and say they deserved it than people blaming jews instead of the zionist for causing this war. You all really like to use jew as a criticism shield don't you.
Have you been on the internet in the past week? Sure politicians and newspapers are generally more towards that kind of statement but Lemmy and Twitter are basically flooded with solidarity with Palestine and yesterday I saw multiple threads about this incident with sources that claimed it was Israel which had people being all "of course they would do that" and if the article was about Israel denying involvement the most comments were not believing that.
Some people started spraying stars of David on houses where Jews live in Berlin yesterday and another person threw a Molotov at a synagogue.
There is a shitton of anti-zionist rhetoric out there which fluently merges with anti-semitism
While i acknowledge there's extremist out there and neo nazi joining the fray, and you should acknowledge that the call to violence by Israeli government is indirectly causing the fatal stabbing of a kid and his mother, the thing is, i don't see anything anti-semitism on the post you're talking? All they were doing is doubting the word of Israeli Government because they lied, lied, lied, and lied, but i never see this sort of comment hurling at all Jew, it's only the "other side" that keep bringing jew in whenever israel is being criticised.
Well i wouldn't say "never", but close.
I don't see Jews giving out candy and celebrating on the street when Palestinians are killed. But that's what is happening here in Germany when Hamas kill and kidnap Israelis. Some Palestinians and their supporters celebrate this.
That is because it's not a war between Jew and Palestinian, it's a war between Israel and Palestine, and Israeli are the one celebrating when Palestinian are killed.
Confused? Don't be, just ask yourself why it's always have to lump all Jewish people together when people merely criticising Israel(the government), but when talking about Palestine it's only on to Palestinian(which it should be) .
I don't heard about any celebrations of Jews or Israelis because of the bombings. I am sure you can post some links?
Here are Muslims and/or Palestinians and/or pro-Palestine-protestors celebrating the attack on Israel:
https://www.morgenpost.de/bezirke/neukoelln/article239752341/angriff-israel-krieg-hamas-neukoelln-berlin-demonstration-ausschreitungen-polizei.html
https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/demonstration-in-berlin-radikale-palaestinenser-feiern-die-hamas-391530546913
https://taz.de/Hamas-Unterstuetzer-in-Berlin/!5962283/
There is more, these are just the first I could find from Germany.
Ohh right before i forgot, and i know it's irrelevant to the point i'm making, but here you go
I'm not even talking about the celebration.
I would love to see their proof that this wasn't Israel. Israel showed footage taken 40 minutes after the attack as proof that it wasn't them.
What proof is the pentagon going on? The pentagon is a US military entity that is heavily involved already with promoting and disseminating Israeli propaganda. I, and many others, will not believe it until we see proof.
Do you seriously want to see a video of a hospital full of women and children blow up? The fuck is wrong with you?
You listen to a doctor when they recommend you something because they are professionals dedicated to their job but hypocritically reject the same kinds of information from other sources full of dedicated professionals without issues.
The United States government is quite possibly the least trustworthy organization in the entire world and I have absolutely 0 faith for them to accurately provide any information that would in any way be detrimental to them or their allies.
The Israeli state is an active apartheid state that confines Palestinians to large ghettos and legally deprives them of their human rights. They have spent the last 70 years continually committing atrocities and war crimes against Palestinian men, women, and children. Their defense minister recently referred to Palestinians as "human animals," and they are being led by a man who has been openly genocidal towards Palestine for the last 30 years. I literally do not trust a single word that comes from the Israeli state on absolutely anything. They have lied continuously since this conflict began and are openly racist and discriminatory towards Muslims. I have no doubt in my mind that a military that routinely shoots journalists and medical staff would bomb this hospital. They have already bombed other hospitals since this conflict began.
There is a huge difference between the intricacies of biology and of where a fucking missile came from. They would provide proof if they had it. They have every single reason to want Israel's name cleared. Even cropped video footage or whatever data they have. I will believe it when I see it.
There is plenty of evidence out now.
Its also normal for hamas to try to politicaly exploit the situation. On the other hand Israel has done things like that before, so it wouldn't be completely out of character.
The israeli, palestinian, russian, chinese and american governments are quite possibly the least trustworthy organizations in the entire world and I have absolutely 0 faith for them to accurately provide any information that would in any way be detrimental to them or their allies.
Ftfy
Feel free to add to the list of shitholes whose propaganda nobody wants.
The Catholic Church belongs on that list
Edit: also the Protestant sects
Fuck yea they do. I'd like to add the rest of the governments of the world as well.
Hey now, leave Rojava out of this, they’re doing some really cool stuff out there
I am unable to rebuke your comment and only can say that it is coherent and valid.
Ah yes. Just like Iraq had WMDs.
Sure is crazy how, of all the places a rocket misfire could have landed, it struck a place guaranteed to be full of people. A baptist hospital, no less, which would definitely drive up religious tensions in the area if it turned out it was bombed by HAMAS. Israel couldn’t have hoped for a more favorable outcome, how fortunate.
They could have done damage to the hospital proper, that would have been more favorable in this escalation plot you nailed down. Why another escalation is needed after raids are already commencing, I dunno, the plot is just so dastardly. The anti-israel riots after this event are undoubtedly going to be used by Israel to give carte blanche to start striking Gaza! Oh wait, that was already happening. A plan so good it is accomplished before it starts.
Also the density of Gaza would make it more probable than not that hamas/Islamic jihad bombs would land in population dense spots when they land short. You don't hear about the IJ bombs that didn't land in hospital parking lots, and assuming otherwise would be rife with logical fallacies.
All in all these events gave Israel nothing that they didn't already have, and stalled Arab meetings to boot. IJ got a pr coup from uncritical media, and the whole event has been muddied into useless circles.
This line really doesn't mean that much anymore after critics used it to say the claims that Russia was going to invade Ukraine were untrue.
Healthy skepticism is warranted, but let's not use arguments that have become hollow.
It's not a hollow argument, the US has a long history of blatantly lying for political reasons. And the Iraq lie resulted in the US murdering 1 million+ Iraqis, acting like it's irrelevant because you don't want to hear criticism of the US is a bullshit response.
And people repeatedly said this about the US claiming Russia was going to invade Ukraine. How did that go?
What makes you think this is the only rocket that misfired? We just wouldn't hear about one that crashed into an empty piece of desert.
What do you mean “our cause”?
Isn’t truth the cause, and to stop the killing of ANY civilians? And to stop the needless killing on all sides….
I have no idea what you're asking. Yes I would love if people stopped this madness and gave palestinians their homeland back. what does that have to do with facing the facts of one tragedy? friendly fire happens.
I’m no politician but that suggestion is even more untenable than the zionists here
Oh you sweet summer child, I wish.
My dude, HAMAS rockets are barely capable of doing property damage, let alone killing hundreds of people. You expect me to believe that one of these things broke apart mid flight in the perfect fucking way to strike at the fuel supply and set it off in the middle of a huge building full of people? That this practically Rube Goldbergian chain of events is the more likely explanation? One of us is definitely spreading misinformation here but I don’t think it’s me.
When they're firing thousands of these things? I think it's possible.
I don't have a dog in this fight. It's a religious war that will go on until long past my years here.
It hit a parking lot at the hospital, not the actual building. Here's an Initial analysis that was posted elsewhere on Lemmy.
if you look at the images there is hardly any property damage. there is no crater. there are a few busted windows and some charred cars. not an expert but it wasnt some kind of WMD. and im not entirely sold on the 500 mark either.
its not gymnastics. israel is flattening gaza with bombs and has attacked "safe" escape routes. im not denying that. but hamas also has awful equipment and little military training, misfires are expected.
I think it's at least as plausible an explanation as Israel deciding to piss away the most goodwill it's had in decades by bombing a hospital parking lot for absolutely no reason other than to kill some civilians.
They're lying, I mean the US. Nothing new here.
This is the part where you show the receipts...
This is like a child demanding proof Santa isn't real...
The person making a serious claim like that holds the burden of proof.
And yet Israel has shown none...