‘We can’t confuse Hamas with all Palestinians’: Spain says amid aid review
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/10/we-cant-confuse-hamas-with-all-palestinians-spain-says-amid-aid-reviewOpen linkView original on lemm.ee940
Comments172https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/10/we-cant-confuse-hamas-with-all-palestinians-spain-says-amid-aid-reviewOpen linkView original on lemm.ee
Really makes you think about why Hamas is so radicalized, doesn't it? It's not like you can pull a Muslim out of a hat and radicalize them. People in a stable, healthy, and fair socioeconomic position do not see violence as an answer. People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
And the irony is that Israel allowed Hamas to be funded by Arabic countries 25 years ago when it was a way to weaken Arafat and the PLO. Everything in this area is fucked beyond parody. No authority on either side has any idea about morality.
The same parallels with how the US funded what would later become Al Qaeda to fuck with the Soviets. Then they did 9/11.
The mujahideen fighters, yeah.
Go Reagan! /s
You called ? 🥸
Netanyahu actually said something very similar, that the best way to destabilise the Palestinian Authority was to finance Hamas.
It's not ironic at all. Arafat and the PLO were TERRORISTS with no interest in peace whatsoever, and who had a stranglehold on all political power.
It's not like Israel had a non-terrorist faction to work with.
I wish things were that simple.
Uh... UH.... UH...... How do you think the Oslo accords happened?
You're describing roughly half the planet
They arent justifying hamas, they are highlighting how israel actively created the environment that gave hamas the capability to do this.
I've seen non-stop justification of Hamas in these threads. "Terrorism is inexcusable, BUT" and then they explain why they are excusing it.
Maybe you need better reading comp lessons?
Those "buts" are because while hamas is at fault, they are not the only ones at fault. Without that but, israel would be posed as the sad victim. They are equally guilty of this terror attack.
They created hamas. The only victims here are the festival goers, and the palestinian civilians that israel will kill using hamas as a justification.
Hamas isnt being excused. Its being contexualized.
Say that to Israel. The average age of the population in Gaza is 18. Unless there was a population boom of unprecedented proportions 18 years ago. (There wasn't) Something seriously wrong is going on.
I don't support Hamas's attack. But Israel isn't the victim. The people of Palestine and even Israel are the victims. And ultimately, the government of Israel is the aggressor. They could stop this. But they don't. They just make excuses and dehumanize the Palestinians. Then act surprised when they get the response they want.
Of note: The blockade of Gaza is going on for a good 16 years, now. About half of Gazans grew up under that regime and they're just about reaching fighting age now, already having gone through "what might I possibly be in the future" age and, well, there's not exactly many options are there.
Exactly. Regardless of who started this. At some point someone's going to have to be the bigger person. And unfortunately that can literally only be israel. And they are absolutely refusing. No matter how good or bad people in guys that are Palestinians in general behave. They are just counted phones to Israel and many other Middle Eastern powers.
No. They really don't. It's pretty fucked up what Hamas just did. But it didn't come from a vacuum. Those people and their families have lived there for centuries. Before a bunch of Western powers came in occupied, and then decided to kick them out of their own territories. Off their own lands. Give it to people who hadn't been there in living memory at the very best. Violence begets violence and it's been that way ever since the start of this situation. Unfortunately however. Israel is going to have to be the bigger person here. Because they're not the ones trapped in a blockade of Israel's design with the help of other Middle Eastern Nations.
More like 100 years. The british began mass immigrating Jews to Israel back in 1923.
"I don't think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But"
"But"
Dude, you're doing it right now.
Wow! Amazing, you got me! I totally conflated historical perspective and ethical viewpoint, I am owned.
I don't know many countries that aren't proud of a revolutionary war they had in the past. I don't like the bloodbaths caused by the French Revolution, the American revolutionary war, English civil war, Garibaldi, Zapata. I could go and on. Yet, we manage to rationalise them and to put them into perspective, explaining that the population arrived at a point where they couldn't tolerate oppression anymore. It explains the violence, it doesn't justify it morally.
You might find participating in these conversations more fruitful if you took time to understand the difference between justification and understanding. I can say that I understand how someone might get enraged and do crazy shit and still condemn the act.
That's a justification. Giving reason to why is justifying that thing.
It is not. Justifying means to judge or regard something as righteous. Giving reason means explaining a possible cause to an effect. Not all reasons are justified. Saying "he probably punched you because you accidentally insulted his brother" does not imply "and he's justified in doing so". There's a distinct difference in understanding possible causes for an effect and condoning them. Also, it's vitally important to try to understand situations to have any hope in fixing them. Without understanding you end up with black and white thinking with no compromises or solutions.
Are you talking about Israel or Hamas? Because they've both killed a lot of civilians. Israel has actually killed more.
You must have missed Israel's response. They've bombed the shit out of the Gaza strip, neighborhood by neighborhood. And they've cut them off from food, water, electricity, and oil. Israel is literally trying to starve out the entire population of Gaza.
Maybe it was lost in the way I said it. But my intention is that I'm pissed off anyone targets civilians.
Source BBC News on the hostage situation "The focus appears to be on a swap involving women and children - including Israelis and other nationals - in an exchange for Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails."
Thank you for stating the obvious.
This is the second thread I've seen today with your awful takes. Probably worth a block, but I don't believe in it. Just know that you're super fucking wrong.
Because one side uses civilians as meat shields like cowards and the other side doesn't.
Social media is full of people saying "terrorism is inexcusable, BUT ..." and then going on to excuse terrorism happening to the Jews in Israel.
You can't understand not wanting to leave but instead voting via democratic process only to be dissatisfied/alarmed that more authoritarian, right wing demagogues are pushing the Overton Window right and eroding democracy?
Do you live on Mars? This is happening everywhere.
To quote some "very fine people" from a major western nation. "Jews will not replace us".
Lots of places aren't exactly welcoming to them.
Why should the Palestinians pay for German crimes with their blood?
I think this comment is pretty unfair. You're right that there's a historical demonization of Jews that continues to this day, but i don't think it makes sense to suggest that the only solution is for all the Jews to hide out in Israel (or some other Jewish nation/state).
That said i don't think it makes sense to say they have to leave for that reason either, or that it's the smart thing to do or whatever. Why not stay? If only there were more secular Jews in Israel who opposed apartheid.
Plus Israel's dickery gets blind support from America. I'd guess if the Americans demanded actual concessions from Israel this would no longer be a problem, they'd have two states already. As it is, they have every economic and political incentive to just squeeze the Palestinians harder.
You mean the American government surely. Americans can't even get our government to do shit for Americans lmao
I'll side with the ones NOT pledging to kill all Jews and Christians. But that's just because I like my head attached to my body.
I'm very comfortable siding with the group that doesn't want to behead me. But you do you.
This part always makes me feel ambivalent about the Israelites in the conflict. Israeli citizens are complicit victims, and that's a contradiction but it's also true. Civilians are getting hurt and dying and that's not okay. However those same Israeli citizens are also supporting a basically genocidal government. Thousands of guidanceless rockets were fired at Isreal, are they expected not to respond? Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been victimized for their entire lives, are they expected not to respond?
Agreed.
Palestinians = people who empowered, support, and protect Hamas.
It's been 17 years since the last election. Assuming only 18 and up could vote, that means only people current around 34 and up could vote. So the bulk of Palestinians didn't even have a chance to vote in that election. Not to mention that they were given the choice between a corrupt faction (Fatah) and a possible less corrupt faction (Hamas).
I am so afraid this message is getting lost. There has been a deliberate push to paint this latest incident to be the reason that neighborhoods had to be flattened and civilians slaughtered.
why can't they hold elections?
Presumably because they are busy planning funerals for their children
Hamas sucks, I wish they were never allowed to assume any power. But if Hamas doesn't control the water, electricity, food, currency, internet, or borders in Gaza; who should the Palestinians revolt against?
So you believe Hamas is the only problem here and once they are killed off the violence will stop and relations can be normalized?
Yep. Israel is just acting in self defense, as it always has done in the past.
They're sarcastically agreeing with you. These are all IDF massacres of Arab villages.
You do know what a false dichotomy is, right?
Here here. At least somebody has some fucking balls. Perhaps because it's not a mess they created.
Hear, hear, not here, here.
Quite write, my mistake.
I think you meant "missed steak."
Go Spain.
Haven’t surveys shown that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas?
Sure but you try being killed and kicked out of your homes. I'm sure you would not like the people who are doing it either. Israel has created this mess.
People forget Israel is the one with the power and creating this issue. If Israel actually backs off and treats Palestine as at least human, then I think (and hope) most people will see that Hamas needs to be destroyed as they are a terrorist group.
Isn't that exactly what Israel did when they left the Gaza strip in 2005? That's the thing that lead to Hamas taking over in the first place.
They did that, and terror attacks stopped. This basically marked the end of the second Intifada. Then they blockaded Gaza, and the terror attacks came back. Then there was a ceasefire in 2012, with one of the conditions the lifting of the blockade. That didn't happen, so the terror attacks came back, and we got the 2014 war. See the pattern here?
Didn’t that process of backing off continue until 2007, when the terrorist group Hamas took over and restarted the terror campaigns?
I mean if you live in a country controlled by a terrorist group that kills anyone who is not their side, and someone goes to your door and asks if you support them... What would you say?
It's easy to dismiss this issue by thinking they have the same freedom of speech as we do in the west, and they can have political opinions without any repercussion.
Same can be said about north Korea.
Let's hope the majority are forced into supporting terrorists as their leaders (that sounds so wrong), but let's not fool ourselves into believing that a significant number of them don't support Hamas.
The leader of Hamas is in year 18 of his 4 year term, and no one seems to have a problem with it.
No one alive seems to have a problem with it. They literally can't complain. Opposed and terrorised by Israel on one side, and Hamas on the other. Defying either is a death sentence.
yeah yeah yeah, and not all Germans were Nazis.
I mean yeah, not all Germans were Nazis....
Dude thinks he made a salient point
sounds like something a nazi would say.
In 1919, Germany and the Allied Powers signed the Treaty of Versailles. A major component of this treaty was Germany recognizing her role in WW1, and agreeing to make significant reparations, in the form of territory, money, and disarment.
In 1939, under Hitler's leadership, Germany invades Poland. Germany surrendered in 1945, and in 1947, the US began the Marshal plan, dumping a significant amount of money into Europe, with the 3rd largest benefactor being West Germany, receiving 11% of the total funding.
Empirically, caring about the wellbeing of the German people was a far more successful policy than punishing them.
Also, most of the Germans attempting to flee Nazi Germany were not Nazi's despite the fact that many countries (including the US) refused them entry out of feer of Nazis.
Not to say that what Hamas is doing is not bad. But under Nazi rule, Germany moved people by the literal overstuffed trainload to industrial scale death factories.
At Auschwitz alone, they had 4 full sized gas chambers, each capable of killing 2000 people at once with industrial efficiency. The bodies were then sent to one of the industrial scale cremotoria for disposal so there would be room to process the next batch.
yeah, and they didn't advertise it. They tried to hide it. Unlike Gaza posting fucking videos.
Calling over 2 million people animals is genocide rhetoric, full stop. Actually, it's borderline Holocaust denial as well, since SS divisions like the Dirlewanger Brigades did exactly that: kill as many civilians as they possibly could.
You have to keep in mind that the majority of people in Gaza are descendants of refugees who were driven out of their own homes, villages, and lands by force in 1948. The current people in Gaza live in ghetto-like conditions with 90% not having clean drinking water, only getting four hours of electricity a day, and are not even allowed to leave without permission from Egypt or Israel (and Israel generally takes years to approve these permits). As well, half of Gazans are children, with the median age in Gaza being 19. And this isn't even mentioning the West Bank's system of apartheid, mirroring in many ways the Bantustans in South Africa. Further, Israel is consistently in violation of international law for targeting civilian infrastructure and residential buildings in Gaza.
I decry Hamas and everyone even marginally defending their actions disgust me. However, constant and systemic oppression and occupation of Palestinian lands under violation of international law and the increasing pogroms of Palestinians in the West Bank must be brought into context, as well as the broader historical context of British and Ottoman imperialism.
Well based on the population growth in Gaza, the survivors seem to been doing quite well. Well, up until this past weekend.
If that was true millennials would be reproducing like rabbits.
They actually value martyring their women and children so that explains why they want to make many more of them. They cherish death like we cherish our life.
I think elections showed Vladimir Putin won with >90% of the vote.
Kim Jong Un also seems to enjoy the support of his people.
Hamas is the only group in this world standing up for the Palestinian people, so I would support them too, we're I locked up in that open air prison, my family and friends being constantly murdered for profit.
From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine
Hamas are terrorists and are only using Palestinians as pawns. Hamas give the fascists in the Israeli government the justification to commit their crimes.
Exactly this. The fact that people can't parse this out is insane to me.
Is Spain offering asylum to Palestinians? Because that's the only thing that will help those people.
They have to be able to leave Gaza in order to receive asylum.
Gaza is pretty much an open air prison that you can't really leave all that easily.
It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is ...
Israel.
It's not even close.
All these other countries, Spain included, do fuck all for the Palestinians, or anything to help solve the crisis.
The entire Gaza strip holds just 2 million people.
If the nations of the world actually wanted this over, they could open their doors to Palestinians. It would take just 20 nations each assimilating 100,000 refugees, and this nightmare would be over.
How about we took 100,000 Israelis each and give the Palestinians their whole country back?
You don't like that idea, do you?
The difference would be that Palestinians would love to leave the, what do you guys like to call it? "Open air prison".
You can try to move the Israelis if you want. Let me know how that goes for you.
Yes, the Palestinians would like to return to their homes, in the region that by all rights should be called Palestine.
Sure, if you want to look back in history and then stop when it's convenient for you, and not dig any further.
That's what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no "right" answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That's not too say that the Jews didn't also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel's entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they've literally been under attack for their nation's entire history.
I'd also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn't destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
How about we start it when the allies decided to dump refugees in the desert instead of integrating them in their own countries. instead their antisemitic asses said "let's give the Jews a homeland". Then a few generations of nationalist propaganda and you have the modern state of Israel with no historic ties to the kingdom of Israel besides a name pushing the most ironic genocide.
Genocide?
My bad, I confused you with a serious person for a minute.
"It has always been the case that the largest provider of aid to slaves is...
Their owners.
It's not even close.
All these abolitionists do fuck all for slaves, or anything to help solve the crisis."
Israel has enforced a blockade of Gaza continually since 2007, which has effectively cut the GDP by 50%, and even after aid. 40% of the population lives in abject poverty. Unemployment is 40%. 65% of all babies are anemic. 40% of the population dont have access to sewage, and much of the area experiences power outages up to 16 hours a day. Well, it's 24 hours now since all food and electricity have been cut off.
Oh they're slaves now?
Interesting.
See in a slavery system, owners profit from slave labor.
In the case of Israel, it sure sounds like in every conceivable way Palestinians are a drain on their resources.
Seems like the aid money Israel spends is strictly charity.
And what prompted those blockades, btw? Do you recall? Do you think it might have had something to do with the endless terrorist attacks?
I'm not saying the Palestinians are slaves... I'm just saying that Israel is largely responsible for the circumstances there now... just live slavers were responsible for the circumstances of the slaves.
There's a reason it's called an "open air prison." We have to feed our prisoners too, but I don't think anyone sane considers that investment "charity. "
Terrorism justifies retaliatory attacks against terrorists. Not keeping 2 million civilians poor, starving, and hopeless. All that making people hopeless does is make more terrorists.
Calling it an "open air prison" is propaganda, not fact.
And saying all Palestinians are terrorists is...?
I'm not saying all Palestinians are terrorists.
I'm saying that Palestinians elected terrorists to represent them.
I'm about 99% sure what you're describing is classified as genocide
Pretty sure you need to buy a dictionary.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/genocide
How about those nations take all the Israelis and then Palestine can have its land? You know what, please tell me what countries would you happily sign up to have you and all of your families shipped to so that where you live can be given to some other nation that you hate?
Don’t like that idea? I wonder why
If you think you can move the israelis give it a try.
So they keep oppressing the Palestinians and it’s all good? Okay
Palestinians have had a lot of chances to have their own state and a peace deal over the years. Seems like they could end this "oppression" any time they are willing to take a peace deal that doesn't involve dissolving Israel.
Ah so they should leave their homes why exactly?
Maybe Israel could stop building illegal settlements in their land? Maybe Israel could not blockade them? Or bomb them or make them starve?
Oh, I see. Gaza is "their homes" when we talk about relocating them, but "an open air prison" at all other times?
It can't be both?
Uh... Maybe part of that is because Israel actively engineered the current situation where Palestinians don't have functional states?
It's not so easy, again due to being in this conflict for decades, most of the people are not able to asimilate so easily and Europe had already a pretty bad experience in 2014 with the Syrian Crysis. Even if offered relocation, they most likely would end up in some kind of reservations and be isolated on relocation. The majority of Europeans are afraid of people coming from middle east.
It not just the Syrian crisis they have bad experience with. Many European countries let lots of poor Muslims from North Africa and Turkey in as labor migrants between the 50’s and the 80’s. And many of those European countries are now dealing with the negative consequences from the descendants of those migrants. Among those migrant communities there is, even after a few generations, still high unemployment rates, high dropout rates and high crime rates (and some of those criminals later formed terrorist cells in Europe). Even compared to other migrant communities the numbers are bad. And the main cause of that is that their grandparents who came here didn’t integrate properly into society and didn’t raise their kids well and of course instilled conservative Islamic ideas in their kids’ head (antisemitism, homophobia etc) so those kids also aren’t integrated when they turned into adults. And that’s because most of those Muslim labor migrants were illiterate subsistence farmers with no education and religiously conservative. People in Europe are rightfully afraid that the same shit will happen again when lots of low educated people from the Middle East will come to Europe.
Forget your imaginary scenario. How about focusing on real existing facts? How many Palestinians have the other Muslim countries in the Middle East accepted? How is it a blockade by Israel when there is an Egyptian crossing that nobody ever bothers mentioning? Where is the aid going?
Exactly.
The Palestinian refugee crisis was deliberately manufactured by the surrounding Arab nations. They could easily have welcomed in their fellow Muslims, but... Nah. Better to use them as political pawns for the better part of a century.
Easily is a stretch considering history. They just don't get flak about it.
The mass downvoting on comments on this thread shows that the Islamophobes are brigading.
There is literally nothing to disagree with, other than if you object to Muslim/Palestinian people existing.
53 percent of all Palestinians want Hamas to rule. Only 14 percent support the opposition party.
APPROVAL for Hamas among Palestinians was as high as 73 percent in the last few years.
So don't pretend that the majority of these people don't support those terrorists. Palestinians have been empowering and protecting terrorists for as long as any of you have been alive.
Sympathy for the innocent Palestinians is great. But let's not pretend these are a people who are all really torn up about the murder of Jewish children.
You're referring to this article, aren't you?
Read just one paragraph further, emphasis mine:
Sadly there's not many numbers to go by. But have a later poll, some snippets:
As well as:
...so, no, short story short Palestinians aren't exactly happy about their dictators.
Can you post this all over Lemmy?
Be the change you want to see
Nobody has else come to their aid, and they've gotten less and less from this "peace process". What Hamas did is wrong, but remove all hope from people and you'll be shocked by what they'll fall for.
Moral of the story: neither Israel nor Palestine nor any country in the middle east is serious about achieving peace that benefits both parties, so now it's up to the global community. Of course, with Israel's posture, I'm expecting them to kill all Palestinians and shrug when accused of ethnic cleansing.
I'd say Israel as an apartheid state has done all the empowering that Hamas needs to be in control.
Terrorist groups tend to not just spring from nothing.
Okay, keep victim blaming
Which one?
so if Ukrainians attacked Moscow tomorrow, would you call Russians victims too? What a clown Jesus Christ
Are Ukrainians targeting civilians by the hundreds?
What if they do? The Ukrainian civilians got their houses, schools, hospitals bombed and had to join the army but they arent allowed to shoot at the civilians of the invading country as well if they can? Are you a russian bot or do you have shit for brains kid? Jesus Christ
Find someone you trust and love, and ask them to patiently explain to you why it's ALWAYS wrong to deliberately murder children.
I doubt you'd take it from me, but it's something you need to hear.
Calling every russian a child to appeal to emotion what a clown Im wasting my time, privileged kid on his gaming chair who didn't just have his house and family bombed and is calling israel and russia civilians, whose majority endorse their governors and their actions for literal decades, victims. I hope you get what you deserve.
Edit I forgot you even victim blamed palestinians for supporting hamas who are the only ones helping them against israel in the top comment but when Russian civilians vote Putin for decades you feel sorry for them. Idk if fascist bot or cognitive dissonance Jesus Christ
What was the percentage of black Americans that support the black panthers in the 50s/60s. What was the percentage of Vietnamese people supported the Vietcong? What was the percentage of Indian people the supported their violent driven separatist during the British Raj?
And?
90% of Russians want Vlad to rule.
101% of North Koreans want Un to rule.
Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.
Why should they be torn up when Israel bombs them and shoots them and treats them like animals and has done for decades?
Isn't that happening on both ends? At this point I don't even know if anyone can really tell who started it first, taking into consideration that it's easy to fabric any evidence and facts.
Where are you quoting these fake sounding numbers from?
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
Were you there to help them? Only hamas do, what did you expect smoothbrain?
The same Hamas that uses them as meat shields?
"Help" my ass, fucking troll.
Do they support them or not pick a narrative 🤡
Pick a narrative? When did I claim they supported them?
You disagreed with me instead of the OP comment with the statistics, so assuming youre not a smoothbrain, that means you believed him and despite that you are now attacking me for simply explaining him why, therefore pick a narrative 🤡
They did.
Some of them were wearing IDF uniforms :|
Hamas came in power in 2006(17 years ago).
It was funded by Netanyahu and the Mossad against left secular PLO on purpose - this is indeed like a 911 situation as he says; it's literally blowback and furthermore likely intentionally allowed to happen given what we've heard from the Egyptians about prior warning to Israel which they ignored (Israel confirmed that they received this intelligence).
We must demise EU. Go back to our sovereignty. This institution is not serving us. UA war has exacerbated racism, now this wildcard given to the zionist entity is even more disgusting.
Actually the big forces carving out lands for them completely irresponsibly like they're all the same has doomed them to be in a state of war for as long as they exist.
Religion exacarbates the problem and creates extremism but violence would very well exist without it.
Spoken like someone who has never faced a day of adversity in their entire life.
spoken like someone who has never had religious nutjobs take over their government.
Oh but we can. Oh but we will.
The last bit of sympathy the west had for Muslims vanished after 9/11. The US helped them out as much as it benefited them in Afghanistan against the Russians, and we had a last hurrah for Kosovo when they were being massacred by the Serbs.
But that's gone now. You've gone from slightly insular neighbours, to terrifying beardy men with hooks for hands who hate our way of life. That's Bin Laden's legacy.
Western support for Israel is far from unanimous, but our indifference to Palestine is. Israel could bomb Gaza to dust and bulldoze it into the sea, and at this point the most you'll hear from us is a stern "steady on lads".
I don’t know who exactly the “we” and “you” are referring to in your comment. But the Irish have been long been supporters of the Palestinian people no doubt due to their experience during the Troubles. I’d say the British people (not necessarily the government) support Palestine too. My brother has been to a number of pro-Palestine marches in the UK before this latest escalation of violence.
Speak for yourself.