Spyke
lemmy.ml

I created an account while in the store with an email of [email protected] and a basic password and surprisingly didn't have to verify the email. Then turned on a VPN to my house.

I plan on just creating a new account every time I go in just to fill up their database with nonsense.

110
lemmy.world

You do realize that they are actually tracking the device itself by the hardware MAC address and other device fingerprints.

The email is just a bonus to let them legally spam you. Anti-spam laws have an exemption. If there's a prior business relationship like shopping in their stores, they can put you on their spam list unless you opt out.

Bogus email only helps for spam but doesn't do anything about tracking.

EDIT: For Android when there's a Captive Portal like the screen shot. devices will use Persistent randomization which while not the hardware MAC will remain the same for the same network where they can track your visits.

16
Dark Arcreply
social.packetloss.gg

Pretty much all modern phones randomize the MAC address everytime they connect to a network unless the user explicitly says not to do that.

29

randomize the MAC address everytime they connect to a network

+1, had issues using Android devices for presence detection because of this very useful privacy feature. Even on your home network, the MAC address and device hostname get randomized, unless disabled in the settings

Edit: typo

6
lemmy.world

When there's a Captive Portal like the screenshot, many devices use a random but persistent mac for that network avoid reauthorization after any network drop. This will make your access to the specific network trackable.

4

But can't you go manually forget the network in your device network options to circumvent this?

2
lemmy.world

chuckles in GrapheneOS

(per-connection random MAC, for all networks, by default)

2
lemmy.world

This is actually just part of stock Android. My Pixel 5 has MAC randomization on by default for new Wi-Fi networks.

3
lemmy.world

It's per-network, not per-connection. Though that option does exist but is hidden away under developer settings.

2

I'd assume after a certain amount of time or after moving far enough away from the network it "forgets" the last randomized MAC address?

It doesn't really make sense to store these things long term.

1
Boringreply
lemmy.ml

GrapheneOS let's me do a per-connection randomized MAC.

I'm sure they do collect a lot more about my device, but there's not much I can do about it short of wrapping my phone in tin foil.

4

Don't forget to disable wifi and bluetooth before approaching the store, as those give off unique identifiers too.

3

Exactly, a damn good reason to avoid the Wi-Fi in stores altogether. So many wifi access points are super weak in security and super sketchy.

I try sticking to my home where I can manage it like a nervous hawk.

24

This is a fantastic read.

I remember febreeze coming out and being like, that would be cool but you can't trust ads and it sounds like total BS. I knew they added a scent, but I had not idea about the subtle social manipulation that they used to shift people's habits.

Speaking of habits, this is the first time I have heard about all the science involved in studying and breaking them.

Thank you for that link. Definitely going to save it.

3

Not really. With https luckily being the default, at most they could get the sites you were going to (I don't think dnss is dead, but it's been very slow to grow unfortunately).

They could probably see if you're checking Amazon or Google, but wouldn't be able to see what you're looking at exactly. Theoretically they could use cameras and or triangulation to see what you're in front of when you use the Internet, but a VPN would still show traffic so they'd know you're looking up something.

The big thing this would do is act like a loyalty card... They give you some amount of benefit in exchange for tracking your purchases in ever higher detail. Mostly it's just like that, except they'd also be able to see how long you are in the store, and ideally they can link it to your purchases so they can infer more about it

FWIW, I wouldn't only consider giving them a disposable email

2

Now they can tell when women are pregnant before they even have sex.

1
Taleyareply
aussie.zone

Bub, they always did this.

They just tell you that they're doing it now.

12
kbin.social

At least they're telling you. There's also a lot of hidden surveillance in stores - they've done it with Bluetooth and cameras for some time. Things like monitoring how long you look at products and evaluating your reactions to displays.

43
rynzcyclereply
kbin.social

That's why I always introduce a good bit of entropy to my shopping patterns:

-Enter and go straight to produce
-Spend 20 minutes examining eggplants
-Walk up and down 5 aisles pausing exactly the square of the aisle number in seconds.
-Grab a box of tampons
-Grab what I need as quickly as possible
-Return tampons
-Checkout and leave

Somewhere a marketing team is spending hours trying to figure out how to improve the conversion rates for tampons and eggplants for customers in my demo.

53
lemmy.ca

Don't forget to flick and knock on various fruits and vegetables. Randomize how many flicks/knocks per item, and throw in a few on produce items that normally don't get that kind of test e.g. grapes or potatoes.

14
lemmy.world

Wait, there are fruits/veggies that get this kind of treatment by typical customers? Please list a few.

5
korokreply
possumpat.io

Melons and squashes (inc. pumpkins).

I believe the idea is to allow you to roughly evaluate the density of the produce, to avoid e.g. mushy grainy watermelon or weird squashes that don’t have their expected hollowness.

4
kbin.social

At least they're telling you.

Now there telling you. They just didn't ask for consent before.

12
lemmy.ca

Why would anyone interested in privacy connect to any public WiFi? That's crazy.

35
thanevimreply
kbin.social

When you need service, but data is blocked by all the steel in the ceiling/roof. I've used it, but with my VPN active. I wonder if they're now going to try to block VPN services?

14
lemmy.ml

In the EU they already had a complaint, because it violates GDPR, but in any case I would never use a public WiFi without a VPN, and even less in places with these conditions, there is also free WiFi in some Rstaurants (even in most McDonalds), public Libraries and others. Fuck surveillance advertising

35

There's just no reason to unless you are really skimping on phone data. Random wifi hotspots are one of the most dangerous things for an average joe in terms of infosec.

9
programming.dev

Agreed. My iPhone connects to my home VPN via Wireguard as soon as I leave my home WiFi. Has the added benefit of pihole ad filtering everywhere.

3
Serinusreply
lemmy.world

So the first thing you give any sketchy WiFi is your home address?

1

Yup. What are they gonna do that every other portscanning bad actor isn’t doing 24/7 already?

Also, how would they distinguish between my private VPN and that of a commercial provider?

2
el_abueloreply
lemmy.ml

Have you experienced any downsides to using pi hole? Does anything stop working?

1

In the 6 years I've ran mine, I've not had any issues and I run a blocklist with over 1 million domains on it.

If I was to run into something that's blocked that I do want loaded, I can just open the pihole interface and either whitelist the blocked domain or disable blocking for a short time, each with just a couple clicks.

3
ludreply

I used to before but my family was extremely bothered that they couldn't click on ad links. If I remember correctly, it's pretty easy to set up if you want to just try it.

3

Obviously the first ad links in google don’t work any more, which drives the wife crazy ;-) Also nowadays more and more websites complain about me using an adblocker.

But technically, not really any problems at all.

3
XTornadoreply
lemmy.ml

I have seen it on Europe... maybe there was some way to circumvent it hidden away, not sure. But you could type a random email and that's it, like they don't send anything to confirm the email or anything once you submit you have access to internet.

2

Went to a Walmart the other day and my phone automatically connected to a wifi that was apparently hosted by my cell carrier. Immediately turned on my VPN because wtf. I disconnected at first then realized I didn't have any service at all which was probably why it existed. Thankfully didn't need to log in but that's why I have Firefox relay.

1

UK gdpr not withstanding, the question asked was: where in Europe. UK remains a part of Europe post brexit.

3

AFAIK it does not exist in Europe, but I meant that these conditions in the EU would not be tolerated. Maybe because of this there isn't a Walmart in the EU, there are a lot of Malls from other companies and none of these use this practices in their restaurants, mostly with free WiFi for their visitors. Offering free WiFi is already enough of a benefit for them, because it attracts customers, they do not need to intrude on their privacy with an obvious attempt to spam them and make money with their data.

1
pazukazareply
lemmy.ml

I was about to say.... Isn't using public wifi's extremely dangerous?

1

Yes, because of this using an public WiFi without VPN is a no-go

2
lemm.ee

They seem to explain pretty well how your data will be used, why would this violate GDPR?

0
kbin.social

Why are all you mother fuckers shopping at Walmart. They are a welfare corporation offloading their costs to tax payers because despite making tons of money they pay shit and skirt employee benefits laws by keeping worker hours low and give new employees info on how to get financial aid such as food stamps.

27
eeereply
lemm.ee

This is the most privileged thing you could say.

"Hey, why isn't everyone eating sustainably sourced GMO-free, organic, locally-grown food all the time?"

Spoiler alert: it costs more

33
lemm.ee

Yeah, this is the thing. Does literally anyone want to go to Walmart? No. Is it the place I can afford? Increasingly, still no. Not sure I can even afford to walk past whatever the good version of a Whole Foods is today, though.

14

Haha exactly. People shop at Walmart because they work at target and don't make enough money to shop at Whole Foods.

2

Cause WinCo doesn't always have what I need, but most importantly:

I'm poor.

15

I needed a job, alright. I usually shop at hannaford although it's expensive. I wanna farm someday.

3
nathrisreply
lemmy.ca

Because all of the other retailers do the same shit only with higher prices. Here in Canada they don't pay their employees any less than the competition, yet their prices are 30-40% cheaper on average.

That extra 40% doesn't result in better working conditions for the employees, it goes directly to the shareholders and bonuses for the C-suite.

I respect the hell out of Walmart because they actually keep their price increases tied to inflation and aren't out there trying to sell a loaf of poverty white bread for $5 or a pack of 4 chicken breasts for $37.

2

I got some insight from a friend who works at a major supplier for these retail stores in Canada. He said how they manage prices is that when they anticipate a rise in cost they'll jack the price all the way to a future projected target instead of following the current inflationary rate so that they won't need to constantly quote their customers different prices. They don't care because they know it will get passed downstream.

1

I’d like to hope they mean the VPN they pay for for other… uses. So it’s no extra money, cuz they already are using it at home to download Overwatch VR Porn.

2

There was an equal sign in between those words. Idk if it's visible on your end but I see it on mine. That being said, the only free vpn I would use is protonvpn. Downside is it's slow and unstable due to using a free plan.

1

Yeah I use simplelogin but for stuff I don't care about like this I'd probably use that or spam keyboard for fake email

1

iOS requires each network to individually be randomized, there’s no singular setting, unfortunately.

2
lemmy.world

Buy RFID/NFC shields for all your tap cards in your wallet, these can be used to track your presence

1

That was an interesting read. Didn't know stores were doing that.

2
Psythikreply
lemm.ee

Cause I get shit service in Walmart and don't really have any other option if I need to look something up while shopping.

8

I live near a shopping area with a bunch of stores. It has zero cell coverage from any provider. Apparently there's been some NIMBY resistance to putting up towers in nearby neighborhoods.

2

Fair, but even using your normal router without a VPN isn't good imo. Even if it's not as bad as public. And VPNs are usually an extreme measure. If I was using public WiFi, and doing stuff on my bank account, then yes, VPN all the way, but I usually don't feel that I need it.

1
lemmy.ml

Not sure about this Walmart case but most you can write any email like random letters [email protected] or not even the Gmail part as long as it's a valid looking mail and then works like you don't even have to confirm the email or anything.

17
Pikareply
sh.itjust.works

this is incorrect for the walmart case, next step is the password for the account, so you need to login or create a Walmart account for access

2

Oh yeah I see I mis read the prompt, I thought it was going with a enter you mail as alternative to using an account.

1
lemmy.world

I always give some bs emails in those authentication forms. Mainly because as a client who tries to connect, I do not have internet access, so I cannot verify my email before they give me the access. And when they gave me access, there is no power in the world to make me do that 🤷

17
Casereply
unilem.org

I found a script for bypassing captive portals on Linux back in the day...

The full functionality of how it works escapes me at the moment, but essentially it searches the network for a host that possibly already connected through the captive portal and spoofs their MAC address.

This isn't the one I originally found, but its the same principal and a Kali tool, so it may be considered more secure than the original bash script I copied back in the day:

https://en.kali.tools/?p=724

7

I used to use an android app that shared log ins for public Wi-Fi even with a password to connwct. It was great as it automated the log in screen too, so was usually seamless.

2
lemmy.ca

Android automatically spoofs your MAC for every network and regularly changes it for each one too unless you explicitly disable that after connecting.

Makes static DHCP leases a PITA.

2
iusearchlinux.fyi

Never trust an open network. Even if the company providing isn't doing anything shady, the easy at which MITM (man in the middle) attacked, can be performed means that many insecure (and some secure) networks can be spoofed with a small amount of know-how.

Always make sure your connecting to a safe, secure wifi network, in a place where you expect that network to exist at.

If your phone connects in a place you wouldn't expect it to connect, double check what it's connecting to, and if necessary, disable your wifi.

16
Catsrulesreply
lemmy.ml

How would they do man in the middle attacks? Don't you need to trust their certificate first?

0

That mechanism only happens after you connect to it, you have to connect to the wifi in order to download the certificate to connect. And it doesn't apply to all open WI-FI. A someone can still spoof the wifi. The fun part is when they set up their own false "I agree to the usage" pop up page that just steals your data - standardised systems like this are easily spoofed, especially when it comes to open and insecure wifi. They could even send you a bogus certificate that routes all the traffic through their gateway, allowing them to spy on the secure connections.

1
lemm.ee

You do realize they were almost certainly doing this before, right?

16
KeenFlamereply
feddit.nu

Damn now I have to put in my real email! noooooo I don't know how to avoid this only real emails work?

-1
lemmy.ml

I've never had this happen before so I didn't know. I just thought it was interesting how they're requiring this now though.

3
braveonereply
lemmy.ml

It’s a good thing they don’t have high resolution cameras tracking everything you look at, or they might know what you were thinking about buying

2

It's a good thing I don't have any socials for them to trace me back to. And since I work there, I'm always looking at shit that will prolly throw them off.

1
Mio
feddit.nu

They can track you even if you dont accept. Turn Wifi off. If you connect, use VPN home.

13
feddit.de

They can use your wifi signal as a beacon by triangulating the signal strength from at least 3 different points. Then they can figure out in which departments you spend the most time, how long you spend in store, heatmaps, which aisles you skip and generic info like what time you visit, which locations you also shop at.

A quick google for "Retail Wifi tracking" brings up mirame.net , where you can see some of the features.

I would suggest to set your phone to flight mode if you see a "free wifi" sign in your shopping mall.

13
lemmy.ml

I fucking hate technology, man. I want to go to the 1800's and give the luddites C4.

7

Try luck with throwaway email + VPN. Although it's possible they'll still be able to identity you if you're the only one using that VPN on your local Walmart. At least they won't be able to see your traffic.

13

relay.firefox.com

Brilliant service and add a VON om top it will make it no sweat.

12
lemmy.world

Sometimes these login portals accept any old bogus email or burner account. They were logging your IP anyway so realistically doesnt add any more compromised dafa

12
lemm.ee

I'm gonna assume that by IP you mean MAC address because your IP is something that gets negotiated with the AP when you connect, changes every time you connect and can't really be linked back to your device at a public AP. In that case, the right move is to enable MAC randomization and connect through a VPN if you need to hide who you're talking to or just rely on TLS if you don't care that they know who you're talking to and only need to hide what was said.

12

That's what I meant when I said "enable MAC randomization"

People think your IP address is the key to your treasures but everyone you communicate with on the Internet has your IP or talks to someone who does.

4
lemmy.world

I've never agreed to this, but I might be on Walmart Wi-Fi from a long time ago. Once recently shopping at Walmart in person I got an email to my account saying something really creepy like, "rate your in store purchases" and sent me pictures of each item I bought IN STORE with an invitation to rate each. Also included my real name. This isn't even the email I use for my online pickup orders.

11
test113reply
lemmy.world

Don't all stores do this, particularly those with membership cards? Isn't one of the main reasons for these cards to track your purchases in exchange for discounts, besides fostering loyalty? All major stores in my area operate like this. If you use scan-and-pay with a smartphone or another device, joining their membership program is mandatory. They monitor what, when, and where you buy, and sometimes even why. I don't understand why this surprises some people.

6
Rukmerreply
lemmy.world

Walmart is not a membership store. I never scanned a membership card, or put in any code or anything. I walked in with my child, browsed around a little bit, ended up purchasing a water gun and some potted flowers, paid at the self-scan, and walked out. I did use a debit card, but that card shouldn't even be connected with the old account that I got an email for, as the card is years newer than the account.

1

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. My bad. I thought the outrage was about them collecting data, which is normal. ; but that's very strange. How did they connect your purchase/receipt to your email? Have you found out yet?

1
lemmy.ml

I am so happy to live in Sweden. All open WiFi networks here are free to use and requires no email or account (VPN recommended as always, though). Even at grocery stores.

11
lemmy.world

That's generally true in the US as well. That's why people are so outraged by this.

14

It was very easy to get free WiFi in the US compared to most EU countries I've been in. But here in the EU at least I have cheap data so it's not all bad.

1

This might be anecdotal tbh. I am in the US and I run into captive portals all the freaking time. It's so annoying.

1

Please, think about the improved products and services before making any rash decisions.

10

It's Walmart, don't forget that they sell ammo there too.

2

I have. They don't need your email to do it. In fact, they've been doing it forever. Your phone is a bt and wifi beacon.

My comment was to literally try helping op get at least some use out of their predatory behaviour.

6
lemmy.world

Many people here suggesting a throwaway email and/or VPN. While this does migitate the impact somewhat, the only proper response is to not use their "service" and deactivate the WiFi fo your phone (else they might be tracking your MAC address).

8
kbin.social

Walmart has an interesting app where if you're connected to their wifi then the app "transforms" to tell you what's in stock in the store you're connected to. I wish they'd just do something like Home Depot where the site just tells you if X location has an item or not, but alas.

5

Wait, do they not do that anymore? I used to be able to search on their website for an item and it wold tell me if it's in stock at the store I selected and the aisle it's in if they have it.

1

Android has allowed you to randomize your mac for a long time, and is currently the default setting. In developer options you can even toggle a setting to enable non-persistent randomization.

4

Yeah, you can pretty much assume that any random Wi-Fi asking for that information is already doing that. My local mall has one that will accept any old email but it certainly looks like this one wants you to create an actual Walmart account.

7
kbin.social

From personal experience I've found that an OpenVPN connection routed over port 53 (same as DNS) bypasses their signin screen entirely.

Of course it's been months since I last tried since I rarely go into the store and don't have reception issues when I do. Could be they've patched it since. Still worth a shot.

7
Quikreply
infosec.pub

Now I have to imagine you standing in the store scanning ports just to get somewhat usable Wi-Fi :)

5
yukichigaireply
kbin.social

This may or may not have actually happened.

...okay it totally did.

6

Imo, this is part of the problem with lack of privacy in today's world.

People will accept this more than not, without a second thought. This leads to the taking of a little bit more until one day you are left wondering where your privacy went.

Again, this is just my humble opinion.

7

And the poorer people find themselves having to trade their privacy for access to technology.

4

Have you tried using Tor? Sometimes it works.

Why can't you use cell service?

5

I use a real sounding name like [email protected]

The more real it appears the harder it is to distinguish garbage data. Also a personal VPN with aguard home running. If I end up choosing a real existing email, well I'm just helping muddy the profile of someone else.

No shopping apps ever, loyalty cards in a fake name with email aliases to a central junk mailbox.

To hell with the lot of them and their business model.

They can profile the device and get hardware info depending on make and software etc but the gold is their app which sucks up everything including your phone number and what you visit on their network. I wouldn't dream of connecting without a vpn unless it was an emergency situation.

That being said data is always preferable when you have the option.

2
lemmy.world

i'm pretty lucky to have unlimited data included with my phone plan. i would 100% have been hacked by now. public wifi is scary.

4
qupadareply
kbin.social

That's great, unless the store you're in is a giant concrete bunker.
Mobile data barely works in my neighbourhood supermarket; even text-based communication is frequently dicey, but you want to send someone a photo of something as a "should I buy this"? Fuhgeddaboudit.

5

Then buy it, or come back later.

Why open yourself up to all the nasty of public WiFi for that?

Either you're buying something cheap, so just do it. Or it's something expensive, and in that case a simple quick message isn't really enough. Go out to the parking lot and talk about it, or come back later.

-2

It sounds to me like they are developing some tools to help map things inside the store. So they can give you directions to things you are looking for maybe. Also with this information they could do something similar to those Amazon stores where you just pick things up and walk out and it charges you automatically.

Not saying you all want to share the info with them. It is invasive. But as an engineer I can see so many cool features I could build with this information.

4

Junk email + VPN, but I've found that most free wifi services like this explicitly try to inhibit the functionality of mobile VPN clients.

3

The irony being open wifi like this absolutely need a vpn running

5

You can just make up some e-mail as, without internet, you couldn't verify it. Also one of the rare cases where VPN directly improve your privacy.

2
lemmy.world

Ah, America, where public wifi is still a thing because they don't have mobile data.

-5

I mean they either have limits so low they have to use public wifi or coverage so weak it's unusable. Which aren't a thing where I live.

1