I have once (1) woken up feeling completely refreshd and ready for the day without any chemical assistance and I still feel revolted thinking that that’s normal for some people.
That's me every day. Sleep like a baby every night.
As a bonus, I have a bizarre talent of being able to wake up exactly when I need to. I always wake up before my alarm, even when I set it for earlier than usual.
Sometimes you really do just have narcolepsy or another incurable "your sleep is fucked" disorder though. So don't feel like it's a personal failing if every doctor you speak to shrugs and tells you to just deal with it
Yeah of course. But personally, most of my conditions and problems ended up being "well we don't have any treatment, so good luck with that" 😂. For a long time I thought it was my fault; I wasn't trying hard enough and just one more second opinion or doctor would surely help. But sometimes life just sucks and it's not your fault. The problem is simply too complex to easily fix. Obviously you should get it checked at least once, though.
There's quite a bit of research on the health of people who work night shifts (eg at hospitals) and the evidence is pretty overwhelming that sleeping during the day contributes to a bunch of negative health effects, no matter how well it's executed.
I've seen those, but I've never bothered to read them, really. Do you know if they control for other factors like diet, exercise, drug use, etc.? Forgive my laziness; I could read the damn papers myself.
I'm a side-sleeper who is tall with wide shoulders, and I was 40 years old before I discovered I needed a significantly thicker pillow than average to support my head at the right angle. I sleep better and it completely eliminated my neck pain
You want to try waking up at a multiple of 90 minutes, or using an alarm that wakes you up in line with your sleep cycles. Eight hours usually wakes you up in the middle of deep sleep
90 minutes is the average sleep cycle, but it varies between people. Some need to find their own cycle time. Phone apps that use the accelerometer to detect tossing and turning can help with that.
Also consider caffeine intake and eating too close to bed time. Both can be disruptors. "I can drink caffeine any time if day and it doesn't mess with my sleep." I lied to myself too for years while working 2 jobs and horrifically stressed. I get it, we deal with our struggles when they exist. But during 2020 when I wasn't working I decided to figure out how to sleep. Turns out stopping caffeine around 1-2 pm and not eating within 3hrs of going to bed made CRAZY improvements. If possible, reduce room lighting/no overhead bright lights the hour before bed too.
Life doesn't always let us make these changes, but if you can it can help.
I mean, there's other sources of caffeine. Assuming you're not drinking caffeine, then that's not disrupting your sleep.
As for food, like I said - our lives aren't always conducive to healthy habits. Working third shift is bad for our health, but sometimes it has to be done. If possible, a meal with protein and fiber will help keep you satisfied longer. Potatoes are good for that too. If I'm still hungry before bed I try to eat something easy like a protein shake, piece of cheese and a handful of crackers. The idea is really just to not eat heavy too close to going to bed, as it's disruptive to sleep.
I can't imagine being unable or unwilling to sleep. Sleep is my go-to favorite method of escapism. I can fall asleep anywhere, anytime. And my dreams invariably fill the voids in my life, like cuddling with soft fluffy loving precious housepets that I don't actually have, my children when they were in their adorable toddler stage, love & romance, family, big clean white house that I don't actually live in, but always do in my dreams. I've never tried drugs & never will, but the bliss I experience from sleeping seems comparable to how people describe heroin. Except sleep costs nothing, is always available, causes no trouble, & is a whole lot healthier than heroin 😄
I just started using that feature on some smart watches that wakes you up when you're in light sleep within 30 minutes of your alarm, and DANG--game changer, seriously. For the last few mornings I've woken up feeling better after six hours of sleep than on a lot of mornings where I've had a hard wakeup after nine.
EDIT: It's called "Smart Wake" on Android and Garmin watches, it's an app like "AutoWake" for Apple Watch, and it's "Smart Alarm" for Pebble.
My brain has a better feature.
If I am supposed to go somewhere, I just wake up every 15-30 minutes until I finally see the right time on my watch. Doesn't even need to be smart one.
Do I feel light-headed and tired? Yes. But it's for free!
When I was looking into this a while back, iirc the only way you could use that one for free was on a phone and the watch version had a subscription. I kind of need it to be on my wrist so that I don't wake up my wife, and I'm not going to pay a subscription fee for an alarm clock.
I looked a while back, and I couldn't find any non-subscription apps (I don't mind paying a one-time fee, but I'm not going to pay a subscription for an alarm clock). But they just added it natively to the Pixel Watch alarm app, or at least they just rolled it out to my Pixel Watch 3. Love it.
If you have trouble sleeping but don't have an obvious medical causes for it, I highly recommend simply abstaining from caffeine entirely (sub for decaf) and try reading for an hour before bed, no phone usage. It's miraculous how much of a difference it makes. I still sometimes have caffeine as a treat on the weekends, but only before noon.
People who think they're 100% fine if they drink it before 2pm should check out how half life works. Not the game, the pharmaceutical concept. It's super interesting.
Since it compounds, if you drink one cup in the morning, you will still have roughly 13% of that caffeine in your body at midnight. Both from the morning coffee, and the dregs over the last week. And that's if your body processes it at an average speed; some people have a long half life of 10 hours, and the math gets crazy. You end up with like 40% of a coffee in your blood at midnight, and it's a wonder why you can't sleep!
Unless your brain gets a calming and mellowing effect from caffeine. Many ADHD people have that. Personally, I sleep very well to better with a little bit of caffeine but I can drink a Bang or other high caffeine energy drink and still zonk out without any struggles and sleep comfortably. It doesn't stop my sleep, but can help me be awake if I want to.
(Half life still exists, I'm just talking about the whole "can't sleep with caffeine" thing)
Same here for the most part, and I've been told a few times that it might be a sign of ADHD. I also have a low resting heart rate (low 40s), and I wonder if that plays a role.
I used to have barychardia too but only in the low 50s. Got it down to 30 once during an experiment in my oceanography class. That was actually kinda painful.
When I was running quite a bit, my resting heart rate dropped into the 30s in the early morning hours (while sleeping). I can't say that I've experienced 30 with my eyes open though - that had to be an interesting feeling.
Speaking as a primarily coffee free person who drinks really seldom: that is true. I drink only when I had tough day prior and have to work with barely any sleep. It holds me like a superglue, duct tape and bunch of clamps. I drink a cup at around 7am but no late than 10am. I struggle to fall asleep at 10pm on the days I drink it. I still hear my heart beat and even if I'm tired, my brain can't u wind and slow down to the falling asleep speeds.
Being decaf is all'n'cool and I feel great after a long streak of 8h+ sleeps each day. But once in a while I drink a cup and it shows. I can feel it. My wife can feel it. Coworkers probably can see it too. I am a different type of a person once I drink it.
I guess people with high(er) caffeine tolerance are fine. But I can't imagine drinking more than 2 cups a day. It would screw me so much. People at work drink 7 cups a day. Makes me wonder every time how their life is going.
I got treated for sleep apnea, got treatment for my chronic insomnia, I stay off my electronics for at least an hour before bed, I don't have any caffeine except a cup of coffee in the morning, and all that and I still get god awful sleep and wake up feeling like shit.
Do you fuck with white noise or dark curtains? I got surgery for sleep apnea but lowkey white noise and dark curtains made way more of an impact on my quality of sleep. Ignore if unhelpful
I sleep fine. It's waking that's hard. If it's not when my body wants to wake, I hate life for the first sixish hours of the day. Doesn't matter if I had 3 hours or 10.
I always go to bed early enough to get 7-8 hours of sleep, but according to the sleep tracker on my watch, I sleep like shit. It's no wonder I'm always so fucking tired.
I second getting a sleep study. The CPAP seems like a medieval torture device, but after you push through the anxiety attacks, you start to feel so good in the mornings.
Also, since you already use a watch, I have to recommend the feature that wakes you up in your lightest sleep phase within a half hour of your alarm. It's called Smart Wake on Android and Garmin watches, it's an app like AutoWake for Apple Watch, and it's Smart Alarm for Pebble. I've only been using it for a few days, but it's already a game changer.
My CPAP made a huge difference for me, I no longer find myself nodding off in the middle of the day for example, but I still don't feel good in the morning. I need to try that smart wake
big sigh I miss those days so much and they are only a few months in my past.
After a lifetime no sleep issues, I’ve been sleeping like shit without medication for the last few months. I get 1 good sleep in without medication and it feels amazing. Then the next night I barely get 3 hours of broken restless sleep.
This sucks and I don’t know how anyone can do it long term 😕
Eh, after a couple years of doing 5-6 hours, 8 hours is no longer doable. For some reason my hip and back start acting up if I sleep longer than 7 hours. Doesn't seem to matter what sleeping position or what bed I use, after 7 hours of inactivity my muscles seem to just start to strain themselves.
One of the less discussed side effects of getting old. If you sleep deeply, there's a good chance that something hurts in the morning because you slept on it awkwardly and it didn't wake you up. The worst injury I've had as an adult was a "sleep injury" to my shoulder. A fucking sleep injury. I used to jump off an 18' cliff into a rocky lake as a teenager.
The worst injury I've had as an adult was a "sleep injury" to my shoulder
I've definitely done something similar more than once. You would think at some point you'd stop having to learn more about your body, but then your body keeps on changing.
I have the same, but back only. If it's at the base of your back you could try some stretches before bed that focus on the area - my pain is much less when I remember to do this. And sleeping with a firm pillow held between the knees made a world of difference too.
Nah, mines a hip and lower back combo. I have a limb length discrepancy from an accident a long time ago that gives me a lateral pelvic tilt. Basically flares up if I haven't done enough or if I have done too much activity. So sitting or laying down too long will start fucking with it.
After years of waking up to get the kids ready and to school, I have mastered the art of sleeping early and waking on time out of pure necessity. Even corona couldn't mess up the pattern anymore.
I can sleep 1-2 hrs and be ready to go for a while. I will fade later in the day, the problem is I will convince myself that I can do that regularly. Requiring myself to get around 7hrs of sleep is really really good for me. For some reason getting closer to 8 makes me not feel so good.
89 replies
I have once (1) woken up feeling completely refreshd and ready for the day without any chemical assistance and I still feel revolted thinking that that’s normal for some people.
That's me every day. Sleep like a baby every night.
As a bonus, I have a bizarre talent of being able to wake up exactly when I need to. I always wake up before my alarm, even when I set it for earlier than usual.
Disgusting
(...ly jealous, please teach me your ways)
"So first you need to buy my book, it will change your life, trust me"
Sometimes you really do just have narcolepsy or another incurable "your sleep is fucked" disorder though. So don't feel like it's a personal failing if every doctor you speak to shrugs and tells you to just deal with it
Also maybe try a sleep doctor. It's quite literally their specialty
Yeah of course. But personally, most of my conditions and problems ended up being "well we don't have any treatment, so good luck with that" 😂. For a long time I thought it was my fault; I wasn't trying hard enough and just one more second opinion or doctor would surely help. But sometimes life just sucks and it's not your fault. The problem is simply too complex to easily fix. Obviously you should get it checked at least once, though.
Will you pay me for a private one? Conservative neolibertarians fucked my health system.
I had that for one summer. Consistently waking 10 minutes before my alarm. So consistently that I stopped bothering to even set an alarm.
It was great, right up until the clocks went back and I was left waking up over an hour before I needed to.
Weirdly, the only way I found to break the cycle was to start setting an alarm.
I get that every time I go to bed at around 5-7 AM and wake up 5-8 hours later. Try it
But also
Get tested for sleep apnea, that makes you feel more tired after sleeping
Great advice
Terrible advice
Why? Aren't some people legitimately night owls?
There's quite a bit of research on the health of people who work night shifts (eg at hospitals) and the evidence is pretty overwhelming that sleeping during the day contributes to a bunch of negative health effects, no matter how well it's executed.
I've seen those, but I've never bothered to read them, really. Do you know if they control for other factors like diet, exercise, drug use, etc.? Forgive my laziness; I could read the damn papers myself.
Neighbors couldn't give less of a shit. That child-scream powered drillhammer doesn't pay for itself.
My neighbour's child has no trouble crying at 3 am and waking up everyone in the 2 buildings that sleeps with an open window, so...
Said neighbour could maybe close their own window at least once the child starts crying but they seemingly don't.
It stopped for a year but then they presumably haf another child.
Also try a different pillow. I lucked into a good one and I've slept substantially better ever since. Or I did until I had a kid, I should say.
I'm a side-sleeper who is tall with wide shoulders, and I was 40 years old before I discovered I needed a significantly thicker pillow than average to support my head at the right angle. I sleep better and it completely eliminated my neck pain
I’m like 90% sure I don’t have sleep apnea, top tip tho.
Ugh me too. I've experienced it a few times in my life, but I'm cursed with narcolepsy so it's not in the cards for me🥲
I only get that after a night of binge drinking. So for better or for worse, like maybe twice a year. But that’s definitely chemical assistance lol
I did my share of binge drinking when I was younger, all it ever did was ruin my sleep.
The most fantastical part of dungeons and dragons is the 8h long rest that heals you up and gives you all your skills back.
I get 8 hours sleep and consistently feel tired and awful every time. 10 hours, 6 hours, far better experiences.
You want to try waking up at a multiple of 90 minutes, or using an alarm that wakes you up in line with your sleep cycles. Eight hours usually wakes you up in the middle of deep sleep
90 minutes is the average sleep cycle, but it varies between people. Some need to find their own cycle time. Phone apps that use the accelerometer to detect tossing and turning can help with that.
/cc @[email protected]
E.g. "sleep as android", best app I ever bought
Also consider caffeine intake and eating too close to bed time. Both can be disruptors. "I can drink caffeine any time if day and it doesn't mess with my sleep." I lied to myself too for years while working 2 jobs and horrifically stressed. I get it, we deal with our struggles when they exist. But during 2020 when I wasn't working I decided to figure out how to sleep. Turns out stopping caffeine around 1-2 pm and not eating within 3hrs of going to bed made CRAZY improvements. If possible, reduce room lighting/no overhead bright lights the hour before bed too.
Life doesn't always let us make these changes, but if you can it can help.
What if you don't drink coffee and go hungry if you don't eat just before bed and can't fall asleep?
I mean, there's other sources of caffeine. Assuming you're not drinking caffeine, then that's not disrupting your sleep.
As for food, like I said - our lives aren't always conducive to healthy habits. Working third shift is bad for our health, but sometimes it has to be done. If possible, a meal with protein and fiber will help keep you satisfied longer. Potatoes are good for that too. If I'm still hungry before bed I try to eat something easy like a protein shake, piece of cheese and a handful of crackers. The idea is really just to not eat heavy too close to going to bed, as it's disruptive to sleep.
”If possible, reduce room lighting/no overhead bright lights the hour before bed too.”
Laughs in Finnish summer nights.
Another classic also is "make sure your bedroom isn't heated up" as well as "avoid noise".
laughs in climate change and apartment building
Next summer I'm planning on visiting my niece who lives in Finland. I fully expect to destroy my routine lol.
since i quit caffiene i went from 9 hours of sleep and feeling tired all day to 6 and a half hours of sleep and feeling fine
I can't imagine being unable or unwilling to sleep. Sleep is my go-to favorite method of escapism. I can fall asleep anywhere, anytime. And my dreams invariably fill the voids in my life, like cuddling with soft fluffy loving precious housepets that I don't actually have, my children when they were in their adorable toddler stage, love & romance, family, big clean white house that I don't actually live in, but always do in my dreams. I've never tried drugs & never will, but the bliss I experience from sleeping seems comparable to how people describe heroin. Except sleep costs nothing, is always available, causes no trouble, & is a whole lot healthier than heroin 😄
I just started using that feature on some smart watches that wakes you up when you're in light sleep within 30 minutes of your alarm, and DANG--game changer, seriously. For the last few mornings I've woken up feeling better after six hours of sleep than on a lot of mornings where I've had a hard wakeup after nine.
EDIT: It's called "Smart Wake" on Android and Garmin watches, it's an app like "AutoWake" for Apple Watch, and it's "Smart Alarm" for Pebble.
My brain has a better feature.
If I am supposed to go somewhere, I just wake up every 15-30 minutes until I finally see the right time on my watch. Doesn't even need to be smart one.
Do I feel light-headed and tired? Yes. But it's for free!
An effective way to reduce sleep related anxiety is to take a heavy dose of fentanyl every day. This is medical advice, I am a lawyer doctor.
I used to get that sometimes. Rough way to wake up.
Sleep as Android is good too
When I was looking into this a while back, iirc the only way you could use that one for free was on a phone and the watch version had a subscription. I kind of need it to be on my wrist so that I don't wake up my wife, and I'm not going to pay a subscription fee for an alarm clock.
Second this. Android app called Sleep Cycle changed my life.
I looked a while back, and I couldn't find any non-subscription apps (I don't mind paying a one-time fee, but I'm not going to pay a subscription for an alarm clock). But they just added it natively to the Pixel Watch alarm app, or at least they just rolled it out to my Pixel Watch 3. Love it.
If you have trouble sleeping but don't have an obvious medical causes for it, I highly recommend simply abstaining from caffeine entirely (sub for decaf) and try reading for an hour before bed, no phone usage. It's miraculous how much of a difference it makes. I still sometimes have caffeine as a treat on the weekends, but only before noon.
People who think they're 100% fine if they drink it before 2pm should check out how half life works. Not the game, the pharmaceutical concept. It's super interesting.
Since it compounds, if you drink one cup in the morning, you will still have roughly 13% of that caffeine in your body at midnight. Both from the morning coffee, and the dregs over the last week. And that's if your body processes it at an average speed; some people have a long half life of 10 hours, and the math gets crazy. You end up with like 40% of a coffee in your blood at midnight, and it's a wonder why you can't sleep!
Unless your brain gets a calming and mellowing effect from caffeine. Many ADHD people have that. Personally, I sleep very well to better with a little bit of caffeine but I can drink a Bang or other high caffeine energy drink and still zonk out without any struggles and sleep comfortably. It doesn't stop my sleep, but can help me be awake if I want to.
(Half life still exists, I'm just talking about the whole "can't sleep with caffeine" thing)
Adderall too. My buddy with ADHD would take his right before a nap lol
Same here for the most part, and I've been told a few times that it might be a sign of ADHD. I also have a low resting heart rate (low 40s), and I wonder if that plays a role.
I used to have barychardia too but only in the low 50s. Got it down to 30 once during an experiment in my oceanography class. That was actually kinda painful.
When I was running quite a bit, my resting heart rate dropped into the 30s in the early morning hours (while sleeping). I can't say that I've experienced 30 with my eyes open though - that had to be an interesting feeling.
Yeah it was a little weird but felt like each pump was harder so it made my chest hurt a little.
Speaking as a primarily coffee free person who drinks really seldom: that is true. I drink only when I had tough day prior and have to work with barely any sleep. It holds me like a superglue, duct tape and bunch of clamps. I drink a cup at around 7am but no late than 10am. I struggle to fall asleep at 10pm on the days I drink it. I still hear my heart beat and even if I'm tired, my brain can't u wind and slow down to the falling asleep speeds.
Being decaf is all'n'cool and I feel great after a long streak of 8h+ sleeps each day. But once in a while I drink a cup and it shows. I can feel it. My wife can feel it. Coworkers probably can see it too. I am a different type of a person once I drink it.
I guess people with high(er) caffeine tolerance are fine. But I can't imagine drinking more than 2 cups a day. It would screw me so much. People at work drink 7 cups a day. Makes me wonder every time how their life is going.
Damned! I was about to go to bed and instead I read that thread. Now I won't have my 8 hours… :(
Laughs in chronic fatigue
Sleeps 3 hours - tired
Sleeps 6 hours - tired
Sleeps 8 hours - tired
Sleeps 10 hours - tired
Sleeps 12 hours - tired
Sleeps 18 hours - tired
Sleeps 20 hours - maybe operational for 30 minutes
People: "YoU hAvE tO dO sPoRtS!1!1"
I sleep better and have more energy when I exercise, and it sucks.
I don’t, it sucks. I’m purely working out for vanity reasons and it’s not even helping me sleep lol
When you finally get 8 hours of sleep and it genuinely starts making sense why they recommend it
When you finally get 8 hours of sleep and it genuinely starts making sense why they recommend it
I got treated for sleep apnea, got treatment for my chronic insomnia, I stay off my electronics for at least an hour before bed, I don't have any caffeine except a cup of coffee in the morning, and all that and I still get god awful sleep and wake up feeling like shit.
Might be depression my guy
Do you fuck with white noise or dark curtains? I got surgery for sleep apnea but lowkey white noise and dark curtains made way more of an impact on my quality of sleep. Ignore if unhelpful
I sleep fine. It's waking that's hard. If it's not when my body wants to wake, I hate life for the first sixish hours of the day. Doesn't matter if I had 3 hours or 10.
i have do 8-10hrs, anymore will make me groggy throughout the day, and wierdly ill.
I either get 4-1/2 hours or 12 hours, there is no in between.
I always go to bed early enough to get 7-8 hours of sleep, but according to the sleep tracker on my watch, I sleep like shit. It's no wonder I'm always so fucking tired.
ever been checked for sleep apnea?
I second getting a sleep study. The CPAP seems like a medieval torture device, but after you push through the anxiety attacks, you start to feel so good in the mornings.
Also, since you already use a watch, I have to recommend the feature that wakes you up in your lightest sleep phase within a half hour of your alarm. It's called Smart Wake on Android and Garmin watches, it's an app like AutoWake for Apple Watch, and it's Smart Alarm for Pebble. I've only been using it for a few days, but it's already a game changer.
My CPAP made a huge difference for me, I no longer find myself nodding off in the middle of the day for example, but I still don't feel good in the morning. I need to try that smart wake
I wouldn’t know
big sigh I miss those days so much and they are only a few months in my past.
After a lifetime no sleep issues, I’ve been sleeping like shit without medication for the last few months. I get 1 good sleep in without medication and it feels amazing. Then the next night I barely get 3 hours of broken restless sleep.
This sucks and I don’t know how anyone can do it long term 😕
Something is stressing you.
Yeah, it’s perimenopause related, which is stressful on the body. Insomnia is just one of a few symptoms of peri that I’ve noticed over the last year.
Eh, after a couple years of doing 5-6 hours, 8 hours is no longer doable. For some reason my hip and back start acting up if I sleep longer than 7 hours. Doesn't seem to matter what sleeping position or what bed I use, after 7 hours of inactivity my muscles seem to just start to strain themselves.
One of the less discussed side effects of getting old. If you sleep deeply, there's a good chance that something hurts in the morning because you slept on it awkwardly and it didn't wake you up. The worst injury I've had as an adult was a "sleep injury" to my shoulder. A fucking sleep injury. I used to jump off an 18' cliff into a rocky lake as a teenager.
I've definitely done something similar more than once. You would think at some point you'd stop having to learn more about your body, but then your body keeps on changing.
I have the same, but back only. If it's at the base of your back you could try some stretches before bed that focus on the area - my pain is much less when I remember to do this. And sleeping with a firm pillow held between the knees made a world of difference too.
Nah, mines a hip and lower back combo. I have a limb length discrepancy from an accident a long time ago that gives me a lateral pelvic tilt. Basically flares up if I haven't done enough or if I have done too much activity. So sitting or laying down too long will start fucking with it.
Have you tried sleeping in zero gravity?
Oh shit..well good luck..I have insomnia everyday🥺
My new place creaks a lot. My roommate paces the house all night and doesn’t sleep. Which means I don’t sleep.
I would simply be too powerful if I ever got a full night of restful sleep!
After years of waking up to get the kids ready and to school, I have mastered the art of sleeping early and waking on time out of pure necessity. Even corona couldn't mess up the pattern anymore.
Envious. Maybe one day ill have enough time, insurance, and motivation to see a psychiatrist again.
Tell that to a hot flash
I feel better with 7 or 9 hours of sleep. I I get 8, I feel terrible.
I can sleep 1-2 hrs and be ready to go for a while. I will fade later in the day, the problem is I will convince myself that I can do that regularly. Requiring myself to get around 7hrs of sleep is really really good for me. For some reason getting closer to 8 makes me not feel so good.
Fun fact: the reason you think you can do that is because your brain is shutting down, so you dont realize how tired you actually are.
I usually "benchmark" myself with a typing test. Alert, i usually have 90wpm or so. On low sleep i teeter around 70-75