This is why I always debate on any given new place if I should list my preferred/assigned pronouns (because they're all assigned originally, though the debates over the semantics of that are challenging), or not do so as way of showing that they shouldn't matter anyway. As in they shouldn't be requested by some random site or piece of paperwork, not that they don't matter to people for themselves.
It doesn't help that while I am cishet male, I don't actually care what pronouns get used for me. I had long hair in the south in the eighties; I got over being called a girl a looong time ago because I reject the fucking misogyny inherent in people trying to weaponize it, and I managed to divorce myself of that same misogyny in my own perceptions of masculinity. Like, I'm genuinely fine with any pronoun, and I'm mostly on the side of working to just get rid of them entirely.
The mostly is because on a personal scale I don't have the energy for that specific fight when there's so many other ones that are dire.
So I end up just leaving such things blank when possible, they/them when I can't select multiple as a point of effort at making the idea present.
Dang. Memes be all relevant and thought provoking up in this piece!
Its worth noting that cis allies, and others who don't care about their pronouns, giving/listing pronouns no matter what they are, both normalize pronouns and act as a sort of smoke screen for trans individuals by making pronouns stand out less.
Its also worth thinking about how listing pronouns publicly or wearing pronoun pins/patches serves the above but also to communicate safety and acceptance to others.
It can't be understated how nice it feels when you encounter someone while going through your day who's visibly communicating themselves as an ally without any words about it being spoken.
This isn't to disagree with any of your personal thoughts on it, just worth considering.
I actually have hats lol. Various symbols and iterations of the usual flags. Which isn't the main point of your comment, but you're absolutely correct about how even very subtle signs of support can be a positive experience. For everyone, since I very much enjoy the responses when someone in need of some public support says something about it. The sense of community can be thin on the ground, but it's never stronger than when two strangers can find mutual respect.
I think I might well need to piddle around with the settings on my accounts on lemmy at the very least.
because I reject the fucking misogyny inherent in people trying to weaponize it, and I managed to divorce myself of that same misogyny in my own perceptions of masculinity
And like the term that'll be used as they push to make more anti-trans legislation. Honestly, if it wasn't such a headache legally, I wonder how many people would change their name for reasons unrelated to being trans/enby I.e. i don't have a great relationship with my parents, I'd happily change my family name to something else, yes I know people getting married often deal with that headache, but the point remains.
We should have some sort of naming ceremony where you don't have a legal name until you're 16 or so and at that time you get to pick your name like some sort of right of passage, that'd be pretty sick honestly.
I know someone in my family who changed her "nom d'usage" ("usage name") with a personal reason related to their own preference, and discomfort with her official first name, but with no relation (from what I know) to :
a name perceived by others as weird
a name perceived by others as foreign (as in "foreigners", "immigrants", because of systemic racist and xenophobic affects.)
a gender transition
burning bridges with their official family (she didn't do that, and only changed their family name with marriage)
escape from harassment
Her real/used/preferred first name is actually a common variant of a part of her official first name (a composite name). She did this change, a social transition of sort, decades ago.
Strangely, other people in the family don't see how it would be similar to a social transition due to gender identity. By even if they didn't make a difference, I'm not sure it would be better : she is often deadnamed by her own brothers and sisters as a joke, and they mock her for many other things. (I did too, while I hadn't escaped their influence and thus hadn't started deconstructing my affects. I hate that I did.)
My point was : name changes already happen with cishet persons without trying to escape an external threat. They're probably rare, and not that well accepted. (Better accepted that LGBTQIA+ chosen name, but still not good, except for some privileged celebrities.)
I hope these get more widely accepted, whatever the reason. So yeah, let's normalize social acts usually associated with (oppressed) minorities, in a way that contribute to make the society a safer and better place. (I'm of course not talking about culural appropiation here.)
Note: In France, from what I understand, "nom d'usage" is a legal qualification for a name commonly used socially, and recognised by authorities, but which is not one of the person's offcial names. It is commonly known to be used by people in the situations listed above. In addition, we can have many official "prénoms" (first names), and each of them can legally be used both separately and interchangeably as a single first name in official or contractual documents. (Except some administrative procedures that impose listing all of the first names.)
If I'm understanding that final note correctly, I wish the US had something like that with multiple accepted names. These are not my names, but as an example my legal name could be Franklin, but I go by Frank and half my documents for getting an ID could say Frank and the other half say Franklin and depending on who's working the DMV that day I might need to go find replacements for all the ones with Frank. This gas happened to me multiple times, and yeah maybe I could stop putting the short form on documents, but no, if it doesn't need my SSN it also shouldn't need my full legal name.
At the very least, everyone should be entitled to at least one free name change as an adult. But children and teenagers need to have the right to their own names, too. There's already a history of children taking their parents to court in order to get a name change when the name is absolutely insane (but we all know that would be rejected for a trans kid sadly).
Nobody ever talks about Chad Ochocinco, Angelina Jolie, Miley Cyrus, Cher, Olivia Wilde, Elton John, or any other celebrity that legally changed their name having a "preferred name." It's just their name.
same i just refer to my legal name as "my legal name" and my actual name as "my name" and frankly nobody's ever thought anything of it. i've been referring to myself with a different name basically since i learned what a name is, and frankly don't even think of the legal one as a name at all - it's just a string of letters i use to identify myself on certain official paperwork, no different than a passport- or health insurance number.
(transitioning has made this all very confusing because now i'm juggling 3-4 new names, and am also constantly flip-flopping on whether i want to keep using my old name or want to burn it with fire, and also still have the same legal name)
i think this is more about how trans folk get described by folks outside trans spaces, which amounts to most media. we say “trans women are women” but publications will still say “x, who identifies as a woman”
No, these are the terms that prevailed in the public discourse, to cater to the underlying cisgenderist absolutism.
Sometimes we need to succumb to these terms if we want at least part of our message to come through. Otherwise cis people look confused and start emitting weird noises.
One time, my doctor had a student following her and she asked me if I would me okay telling them about how to address nonbinary people and what kind of language to use. She asked if it was inappropriate to ask for someone's "preferred pronouns." She seemed like she'd never considered that that may be insensitive when I said you should probably just ask for their pronouns bc preferred made them sound optional
Being who you are and not.pretending otherwise is the essence of freedom. If zhe says those neopronouns are appropriate, how the hell is it anyone else"s business to say zhe is wrong?
Nobody's fighting over pronouns. You're absolutely right to point out that a queer person whose biggest concern is their neopronouns being respected is very fortunate and should consider themselves privileged.
But language has always been part of the fight against hate in exactly the same way uniforms and banners are part of war. Respecting neo-pronouns is one of the easiest and most effort-effective ways individuals and organizations can pick a side, show support, and help identify the jerks who support hate.
It isnt everything and it isnt enough, but i dont see the value in mocking someone else's small show of empathy and support.
Someone refusing to play a pronoun gaming isn't mocking, it's not wanting to put the energy into something pointless. If you present a gender ill refer to said gender but when you start making up words, that politeness onto death. Zhe isn't the fight that needs to be fought right now. That's the main criticism of Homo political action. Sure two dudes can kiss in public but what about the income inequality that's been worsening? What about the first nation people making up most of the prison population despite being less then 10 percent?
38 replies
This is why I always debate on any given new place if I should list my preferred/assigned pronouns (because they're all assigned originally, though the debates over the semantics of that are challenging), or not do so as way of showing that they shouldn't matter anyway. As in they shouldn't be requested by some random site or piece of paperwork, not that they don't matter to people for themselves.
It doesn't help that while I am cishet male, I don't actually care what pronouns get used for me. I had long hair in the south in the eighties; I got over being called a girl a looong time ago because I reject the fucking misogyny inherent in people trying to weaponize it, and I managed to divorce myself of that same misogyny in my own perceptions of masculinity. Like, I'm genuinely fine with any pronoun, and I'm mostly on the side of working to just get rid of them entirely.
The mostly is because on a personal scale I don't have the energy for that specific fight when there's so many other ones that are dire.
So I end up just leaving such things blank when possible, they/them when I can't select multiple as a point of effort at making the idea present.
Dang. Memes be all relevant and thought provoking up in this piece!
Its worth noting that cis allies, and others who don't care about their pronouns, giving/listing pronouns no matter what they are, both normalize pronouns and act as a sort of smoke screen for trans individuals by making pronouns stand out less.
Its also worth thinking about how listing pronouns publicly or wearing pronoun pins/patches serves the above but also to communicate safety and acceptance to others.
It can't be understated how nice it feels when you encounter someone while going through your day who's visibly communicating themselves as an ally without any words about it being spoken.
This isn't to disagree with any of your personal thoughts on it, just worth considering.
I appreciate the perspective :)
I actually have hats lol. Various symbols and iterations of the usual flags. Which isn't the main point of your comment, but you're absolutely correct about how even very subtle signs of support can be a positive experience. For everyone, since I very much enjoy the responses when someone in need of some public support says something about it. The sense of community can be thin on the ground, but it's never stronger than when two strangers can find mutual respect.
I think I might well need to piddle around with the settings on my accounts on lemmy at the very least.
Pass the blunt homie. You're getting all philosophical and shit. <3
Pffffffffff, cough hack wheeze 👌
🩷
thank you for making this comment! it’s really insightful to see gender-apathetic feelings coming from a cishet person ^^
You sound like a cool dude
Preach comrade
❤❤❤❤
I hate calling my non legal name my preferred name. Its my real name! The other name is now just legal
illegal name sounds more cool
When I changed my name legally, I posted "I'm no longer illegally NAME."
And like the term that'll be used as they push to make more anti-trans legislation. Honestly, if it wasn't such a headache legally, I wonder how many people would change their name for reasons unrelated to being trans/enby I.e. i don't have a great relationship with my parents, I'd happily change my family name to something else, yes I know people getting married often deal with that headache, but the point remains.
We should have some sort of naming ceremony where you don't have a legal name until you're 16 or so and at that time you get to pick your name like some sort of right of passage, that'd be pretty sick honestly.
I know someone in my family who changed her "nom d'usage" ("usage name") with a personal reason related to their own preference, and discomfort with her official first name, but with no relation (from what I know) to :
Her real/used/preferred first name is actually a common variant of a part of her official first name (a composite name). She did this change, a social transition of sort, decades ago.
Strangely, other people in the family don't see how it would be similar to a social transition due to gender identity. By even if they didn't make a difference, I'm not sure it would be better : she is often deadnamed by her own brothers and sisters as a joke, and they mock her for many other things. (I did too, while I hadn't escaped their influence and thus hadn't started deconstructing my affects. I hate that I did.)
My point was : name changes already happen with cishet persons without trying to escape an external threat. They're probably rare, and not that well accepted. (Better accepted that LGBTQIA+ chosen name, but still not good, except for some privileged celebrities.) I hope these get more widely accepted, whatever the reason. So yeah, let's normalize social acts usually associated with (oppressed) minorities, in a way that contribute to make the society a safer and better place. (I'm of course not talking about culural appropiation here.)
Note: In France, from what I understand, "nom d'usage" is a legal qualification for a name commonly used socially, and recognised by authorities, but which is not one of the person's offcial names. It is commonly known to be used by people in the situations listed above. In addition, we can have many official "prénoms" (first names), and each of them can legally be used both separately and interchangeably as a single first name in official or contractual documents. (Except some administrative procedures that impose listing all of the first names.)
If I'm understanding that final note correctly, I wish the US had something like that with multiple accepted names. These are not my names, but as an example my legal name could be Franklin, but I go by Frank and half my documents for getting an ID could say Frank and the other half say Franklin and depending on who's working the DMV that day I might need to go find replacements for all the ones with Frank. This gas happened to me multiple times, and yeah maybe I could stop putting the short form on documents, but no, if it doesn't need my SSN it also shouldn't need my full legal name.
At the very least, everyone should be entitled to at least one free name change as an adult. But children and teenagers need to have the right to their own names, too. There's already a history of children taking their parents to court in order to get a name change when the name is absolutely insane (but we all know that would be rejected for a trans kid sadly).
Nobody ever talks about Chad Ochocinco, Angelina Jolie, Miley Cyrus, Cher, Olivia Wilde, Elton John, or any other celebrity that legally changed their name having a "preferred name." It's just their name.
There is my name, and then there's what the government calls me
we always called it "your full government name"
i don't know why. our siblings only heard it from our mothers when they were mad at us
same i just refer to my legal name as "my legal name" and my actual name as "my name" and frankly nobody's ever thought anything of it. i've been referring to myself with a different name basically since i learned what a name is, and frankly don't even think of the legal one as a name at all - it's just a string of letters i use to identify myself on certain official paperwork, no different than a passport- or health insurance number.
(transitioning has made this all very confusing because now i'm juggling 3-4 new names, and am also constantly flip-flopping on whether i want to keep using my old name or want to burn it with fire, and also still have the same legal name)
Sounds like a good solution would be referring to them as "legal pronouns" then.
Though, as someone else mentioned, "illegal pronouns" sound cooler
I tell people that I don't have a name. Nobody just rolls with it 3:
I'm not an expert in this space by any means, but aren't these the terms that the community picked themselves?
i think this is more about how trans folk get described by folks outside trans spaces, which amounts to most media. we say “trans women are women” but publications will still say “x, who identifies as a woman”
And i wish to stab them in the balls every time i read it. Biased fucks
No, these are the terms that prevailed in the public discourse, to cater to the underlying cisgenderist absolutism.
Sometimes we need to succumb to these terms if we want at least part of our message to come through. Otherwise cis people look confused and start emitting weird noises.
One time, my doctor had a student following her and she asked me if I would me okay telling them about how to address nonbinary people and what kind of language to use. She asked if it was inappropriate to ask for someone's "preferred pronouns." She seemed like she'd never considered that that may be insensitive when I said you should probably just ask for their pronouns bc preferred made them sound optional
We should all be fighting to get the language back on the side of the people.
My thoughts exactly.
Cis-genderism in a nutshell.
Lots of people in the community should get more woke about this stuff. It is the absolute essence of our oppression.
If you think putting zhe/Kay on your mcdonalds application is freedom you haven't been paying attention
Being who you are and not.pretending otherwise is the essence of freedom. If zhe says those neopronouns are appropriate, how the hell is it anyone else"s business to say zhe is wrong?
Fighting over pronouns instead of inequality is the quintessential essence of privilege.
Nobody's fighting over pronouns. You're absolutely right to point out that a queer person whose biggest concern is their neopronouns being respected is very fortunate and should consider themselves privileged.
But language has always been part of the fight against hate in exactly the same way uniforms and banners are part of war. Respecting neo-pronouns is one of the easiest and most effort-effective ways individuals and organizations can pick a side, show support, and help identify the jerks who support hate.
It isnt everything and it isnt enough, but i dont see the value in mocking someone else's small show of empathy and support.
Someone refusing to play a pronoun gaming isn't mocking, it's not wanting to put the energy into something pointless. If you present a gender ill refer to said gender but when you start making up words, that politeness onto death. Zhe isn't the fight that needs to be fought right now. That's the main criticism of Homo political action. Sure two dudes can kiss in public but what about the income inequality that's been worsening? What about the first nation people making up most of the prison population despite being less then 10 percent?
Damn that's a good point
May we have your pronouns?
No, you may not, I need those.