"I before E, except after C, and when sounding like A, as in neighbor and weigh, and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May, and you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say."
That's kinda funny for me as a former pony fan because that exact bit got turned into a super-popular animation that at least cemented itself in the brains of all my friends.
False. It's the runoff of a language-rich neighborhood. Stewing in a ditch filled with what looks like mud but smells like a dead family of possums at the bottom of a park trash can.
Also funnily enough, it's arguably the most representative of the Germanic languages as a whole. It started out as a form of Central Germanic. Then during the Viking Age it was heavily influencd by a Northern Germanic language, Old Norse.
Even the French influence is a very specific variety of French, since the Normans were actually descended from Vikings
The rule that I was taught as a kid was “I before E except after C only if the sound is ee”
It catches all of the examples on the mug except “weird” which gets a pass in my book because it’s weird (Keith’s excluded because proper nouns don’t follow rules). It doesn’t catch “caffeine” but the “ei” in “caffeinated” isn’t pronounced ee where I come from.
I’ve never heard the “ay” rule but it doesn’t seem to catch as many words as the “not ee” rule.
Yeah the whole rule (and really the whole confusion) is about "ee". Other pronunciations are always spelt "ei" anyway.
It still has exceptions but it catches a lot. And i wish people followed it because I die inside every time someone spells "Wiener" as "Weiner". The city is called Wien ffs.
Firstly, there is, effectively, no 'correct' way to pronounce any damn thing. Languages belong to those who use them. RP English is no more correct than Delhi English, or Alabama English for that matter.
Secondly, I have English speaking friends from just about every US state, and so many countries, and I have never once heard one pronounce foreign as "fore-ayn." I'd love to know what dialect you speak.
Honestly I wish we would just stop teaching stupid ‘rules’ like this. English is easier to just remember than to try to suss out some sort of rule set by which you can magically spell a word you just heard or magically pronounce a word you have only read. I hated being told to sound shit out when I was a kid.
It’s like “‘c’s make a ‘k’ or ‘s’ noise, sound it out”:
Pacific Ocean
As someone who's actually studied Old English and Old Norse: No, you are incorrect. it was the French. It's always been the French. 1066.
Old English was a perfectly coherent language, and had incredibly consistent spelling rules. Meanwhile, one need only take a single look at a sentence in French to gauge precisely how much respect for spelling is held by francophones (being facetious with this last note, of course, but the point stands)
The term "Viking" has a very specific meaning. Would the people of Normandy, including the flemish, French and Breton troops, have called it a Viking activity when they went to England? Would William the conqueror? No. Obviously not. If a random person whose great grandmother was Scandinavian went to another country with a bunch of american CIA agents and toppled the government, would you say that THEY were "vikings"? No, of course not (and if you would you're daft). Was Grace O'Malley a Viking, just because many of the Irish people around the coasts were descended from Norsemen? The word "Viking" specifically describes those Norse peoples actively foraying for trade and raid, and does not describe even those whom they left at home. This is not some opportunistic sea piracy, or even settlement. This was a conquest. A replacement of the nobility for the purpose of establishing dominion. Completely unrelated to Viking activity, so pretending like your terminology was somehow accurate on the technicality that many people who fought in England were, from their distant antecedents, descended from scandinavian people, is ridiculous. It was, at best, misleading, and at worst, disingenuous.
67 replies
"I before E, except after C, and when sounding like A, as in neighbor and weigh, and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May, and you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say."
Boxen!
The big yellow one is the sun
"It's a cup of dirt! ...I took a cup... and I put some dirt in it."
Do you have tube of cannonball wound ointment?
That's a hard rule... That's a rough rule...
I think this is the first time I've ever quoted Brian Regan and had anyone know what I was referencing. Right on!
Edit: For anyone not in the know, here's a clip of the routine and here's that exact bit.
That's kinda funny for me as a former pony fan because that exact bit got turned into a super-popular animation that at least cemented itself in the brains of all my friends.
That's funny! Now I'll always have to wonder if folks think I'm quoting Brian Regan, or that animation.
This is the type of mnemonic device I can get behind. Now if only it were subtly rooted in class consciousness...
...except after "c" or when sounding like "ay", as in neighbor or weigh
Follow the rule
I'm seizing this!
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but it's pronounced sayzing. It has to because of the rule.
How do you pronounce 'received'? (Or foreign, for that matter...)
It doesn't work all the time. English is full of nonsense like that. People always only remember half of this rule though.
Because English is three languages in a trench coat.
False. It's the runoff of a language-rich neighborhood. Stewing in a ditch filled with what looks like mud but smells like a dead family of possums at the bottom of a park trash can.
You isn’t wrong
Also funnily enough, it's arguably the most representative of the Germanic languages as a whole. It started out as a form of Central Germanic. Then during the Viking Age it was heavily influencd by a Northern Germanic language, Old Norse.
Even the French influence is a very specific variety of French, since the Normans were actually descended from Vikings
In a french coat
Hon hon hon!
Omelette du fromage?
Four-Ay-Gun
"Received" would be the "except after C" part, not the "sounding like ay" part.
Not sure about "foreign", or "leisure" for that matter. Maybe foreign used to be pronounced with the "ay" sound. I'm guessing something similar with leisure.
The rule that I was taught as a kid was “I before E except after C only if the sound is ee”
It catches all of the examples on the mug except “weird” which gets a pass in my book because it’s weird (Keith’s excluded because proper nouns don’t follow rules). It doesn’t catch “caffeine” but the “ei” in “caffeinated” isn’t pronounced ee where I come from.
I’ve never heard the “ay” rule but it doesn’t seem to catch as many words as the “not ee” rule.
Yeah the whole rule (and really the whole confusion) is about "ee". Other pronunciations are always spelt "ei" anyway.
It still has exceptions but it catches a lot. And i wish people followed it because I die inside every time someone spells "Wiener" as "Weiner". The city is called Wien ffs.
re-saved clearly
Received is the except after C rule. Foreign uses the same ay sound as neighbor.
Keith is a better one, but it's a proper noun so a lot of rules for spelling are ignored.
I’m sorry… foreign and neighbor do not use the same sound
They do but not where its_kim thinks:
fȯr-ən
nā-bər
The "ei" in "foreign" is a schwa ( /ə/ ) and so is the "o" in neighbor.
Sources (American English): https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foreign, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neighbor
It does when you pronounce it correctly.
Firstly, there is, effectively, no 'correct' way to pronounce any damn thing. Languages belong to those who use them. RP English is no more correct than Delhi English, or Alabama English for that matter.
Secondly, I have English speaking friends from just about every US state, and so many countries, and I have never once heard one pronounce foreign as "fore-ayn." I'd love to know what dialect you speak.
No...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neighbor
nā-bər
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foreign
fȯr-ən
You're probably speaking some fringe accent.
Nope.
Foreign does not use the same sound as neighbor.
nAYbor
forEN
It does sound like forayn to me.
The most common pronounciations are "for-in" and "for-un".
Source: English linguistics student who can read phonetic notation
It absolutely doesn't have a hard E vowel sound. Except when my deep south relatives say it.
Because it's not a "hard" E.... it's a mid-central vowel in "foreign" (schwa): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_central_vowel (like when going "uh")
Proof in an American dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foreign
While "ei" in "Neighbor" is NOT a schwa, it's an "ay": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/neighbor
Yes, you are correct that it does not have a hard E sound
The actual rule is "memorise every word individually over a lifetime because there are no rules"
Just memorize the exceptions. It's better to memorize rules than words.
Not if the rules don't fucking work lol.
You must pronounce Foreign in a strange way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_before_E_except_after_C
... and you'll always be wrong no matter what you say!
And on weekends and holidays and all throughout may. You'll always be wrong no matter what you say!
That’s not very scientific…
Edit: Downvote why? ‘Science’ clearly doesn’t follow the rule.
Good point, need to add that it’s also only for diphthongs. Science doesn’t apply because the i and e are in different syllables.
Honestly I wish we would just stop teaching stupid ‘rules’ like this. English is easier to just remember than to try to suss out some sort of rule set by which you can magically spell a word you just heard or magically pronounce a word you have only read. I hated being told to sound shit out when I was a kid.
It’s like “‘c’s make a ‘k’ or ‘s’ noise, sound it out”: Pacific Ocean
Fucking really?
The phrase I learned was "except after 'c' but only if the sound is 'ee'". Mostly also works.
As a scientist, I'm getting a seizure from people in society pretending like this is a useful rule.
I before E except after C, We live in a weird society.
I think you mean wceird... 😵
English was a mistake, you shouldn't mix so many languages. Look what you've done!
I blame the Germans for all this 🤬
No, you should blame the Vikings. They're the ones that did all the blending
As someone who's actually studied Old English and Old Norse: No, you are incorrect. it was the French. It's always been the French. 1066.
Old English was a perfectly coherent language, and had incredibly consistent spelling rules. Meanwhile, one need only take a single look at a sentence in French to gauge precisely how much respect for spelling is held by francophones (being facetious with this last note, of course, but the point stands)
You missed my point completely. Which French were the ones who invaded in 1066? Who were they descended from?
The term "Viking" has a very specific meaning. Would the people of Normandy, including the flemish, French and Breton troops, have called it a Viking activity when they went to England? Would William the conqueror? No. Obviously not. If a random person whose great grandmother was Scandinavian went to another country with a bunch of american CIA agents and toppled the government, would you say that THEY were "vikings"? No, of course not (and if you would you're daft). Was Grace O'Malley a Viking, just because many of the Irish people around the coasts were descended from Norsemen? The word "Viking" specifically describes those Norse peoples actively foraying for trade and raid, and does not describe even those whom they left at home. This is not some opportunistic sea piracy, or even settlement. This was a conquest. A replacement of the nobility for the purpose of establishing dominion. Completely unrelated to Viking activity, so pretending like your terminology was somehow accurate on the technicality that many people who fought in England were, from their distant antecedents, descended from scandinavian people, is ridiculous. It was, at best, misleading, and at worst, disingenuous.
Jfc it's a fucking joke you nutcase. Have you forgetten that this is in the funny community?
i before e, except after c, and this only applies when it rhymes with "me"
i.e. English is weird
QI before E
How do you counterfeit a beige sleigh? Paint it tan instead?
"Just sound it out" is the best I got, wish mnemonic devices worked for me but they always get reversed or worse
Feels like it was ripped from the AI in Dungeon Crawler Carl