Germany approves nearly $1bn in arms exports to Israel
Shameful
https://thecradle.co/articles-id/39755Open linkView original on lemmy.caSyndicated from the fediverse. Read and engage on the original instance.
View original on lemmy.cahttps://thecradle.co/articles-id/39755Open linkView original on lemmy.ca
159 replies
Hey everyone, let’s keep the discussion constructive. This topic is important, and diverse perspectives are valuable. Remember, long reply chains rarely change minds, but they often escalate tension. If a conversation isn’t productive, consider stepping back. Let’s focus on sharing ideas, not winning arguments. Thanks for keeping it respectful!
Germany is giving israel weapons to exterminate Palestinians
And witholding weapons from Ukraine.
Yes
5D chess
https://factually.co/fact-checks/science/genetic-studies-palestinian-ancestry-evidence-limitations-e344b3
Attacking Palestinians with submarines?
The naval blockage of Gaza is part of the genocide, so yeah pretty much.
That is also not enforced with submarines.
It is enforced with Israeli naval superiority, of which submarines contribute to.
What do you mean, are saying Israel doesn't use submarines? Who told you that?
You better believe they have them even if you aren't aware of their use in sinking shipping.
I'm saying they are not using them in any blockade. Or are there reports to the contrary?
You can bet they use them even if not in a way that has gotten publicity is my ppint, the US would've given them some of the most high tech subs in the world, and the tech to retrofit some as nuclear subs, what with all that nuclear material we illegally gave them.
Submarines was not the only things included in this. Why should you have a settler colonial power doing genocide in any shape or form anyway
Don't comment if you're not going to even open the article first
I have, and the large increase in value, the whole reason for the article, hence the very large picture at the top, is the submarine deal, which is the relevant new thing.
Cant wait for your turn, twat
Psychopath. The same can be said for Israel because they've lost most of the world's support, and they'll be losing the US next.
Nothing justify settler colonialism, nothing justify genocide
after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion
Can't make this shit up. Germany needs a better army because Russia is actively attacking it, so what do they do? Sell their shit to Israel.
A quick reminder that Russia's attack on Europe is decisively supported by China.
Look I know China personally about as you do and I can tell you one thing: they don’t want any war. They just want to be the centre of the world again and make every nation economically dependent on them. War doesn’t help them, because they win with economy.
You do know what happens to the economy of countries that go to war, right?
By your own argument, China should be giddy about everyone else going to war.
China want buyers for things that aren't just weapons. They prefer using the weapons for themselves to threaten other countries in the eastern Asian seas
Not really, you present your argument as a false equivalence. Math equation:
(Blooming economy without loss of life) > (Temporary economic boom caused by war, resulting in loss of life, risk of losing power, post war inflation and needing to rebuild infrastructure to allow for the continuation of blooming economy without loss of life)
but its a proxy war
Although Ukraine also buys all their drone components from China.
Really, they're just sitting back and making a profit.
How do you know?
China's already won the war against the west.
They don't care.
I wouldn't give Israel even one helmet, but I don't think Germany is actually short on submarines.
Germany is guilt trapped in relation to Israel, it's sad how much they get taken advantage off
Also all russia can really threaten Europe and Germany with are ballistic missiles and who was it again who launched a war THEY KNEW would consume much of Europe's ballistic missile interceptors either directly or indirectly?
Israel
Actually that is one of the best arguments for selling arms to Israel. Germany bought Arrow from them, which is perfect against Russian longer range missiles. Nobody in Europe produces a system with similar capabilities and the only alternatives to that are being sold by the US, Russia and China.
As for Patriot interceptors, those are used by the US and Arab countries. Israel has a system called Davids Sling, which has similar capabilities. They actually sold that to Finland and Greece. Currently Volkswagen is in talks with Israel to produce parts of that in Germany. That would be a useful factory to have in case of a war with Russia.
Also no European country has send missile interceptors to Israel or any country in the region. The most are shooting down some Iranian drones attacking Cyprus, but that is to be expected.
I'm not convinced of the utility of Patriot/David's Sling in modern warfare. In the early phase of the 2026 Israel/USA-Iran war, Iran was shooting about a dozen missiles per night at Israel, and there's good indication that a substantial amount got through. Of the (admittedly limited) number of videos that leaked out of Israel, Iranian rockets were often not even met by interceptor fire at all; some videos show how infrastructure get hit during daytime while no sirens are on; and in the cases that there was successful interception the kill rate appears to be less than 1/3.
Without speculating too much, it appears that these systems are not suitable for neutralizing hypersonic missiles. Further, they're useless against cluster munitions, and using them on attack drones is a waste. Shahed-136 is getting a range extension and a 3x speed boost by the way.
Conclusion: Israeli weaponry is shit. It's good for fighting asymmetric warfare when you're the overwhelmingly stronger party. It's great taking makeshift rockets made by an underground guerilla out of the sky. Against a real country, it's a flawed doctrine and an impossible technology.
If the USA can't defend their bases against Iran, then what exactly is the use of these missile interceptors against an enemy like Russia?
So maybe use those billions of Euros at home developing a real strategy.
I see a massive modern war in Ukraine, where Ukraine is fighting for survival. The number one system they want are missile interceptors like Patriot. They spend a lot of money and political capital on getting them. More then on any other system.
I see your point, but is that not partly because weapon sales to Ukraine is very limited? They're not getting fighter jets, they're not getting good offensive weapons (or if they do, they come with significant strings attached, like they have to promise not to hit certain regions or targets within Russia). But there are no such limits for interceptors. And interceptors are very expensive, so it's small wonder that they'd quickly eat through your budget.
I mean, Ukraine is quite conservative with their use of Patriots, so they might only use them for missiles and only use a single interceptors (rather than throwing 2-3 Patriots at a drone like Israel does). But even so, they could have gotten a Gripen F for the price of 25 PAC-3 interceptors, if we're just considering the price here. The problem is to get approval for the purchase (not gonna happen) and even if you did, get the planes delivered within a reasonable time frame (not gonna happen, would take years).
So there are the limits on what the West actually allows for export to Ukraine, and also the actual supply. A lot of the export has been theoretical, and slow to deliver, because the West wants to keep a lot of weapons in case they need it. And they know that they're slow to produce more.
Forever want to be seen as a David vs Goliath.
Goliath was probably 6ft 9in. Israelite culture was derived from Canaanite / Philistine culture, and genetically they’re mostly indistinguishable. The native populations did mostly convert to Greek gods, Roman, then Christianity and Islam.
The Israeli invaders are mainly Hasidic and Ashkenazi Jews who are Caucasian Ukrainian and European in descent.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/dispatches/what-shrinking-us-missile-stocks-means-for-allies-and-adversaries-around-the-world/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/sep/03/ukraine-iran-wars-trump
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-missile-interceptor-shortfall-beyond-critical-due-war-iran-report
Have you read the first article?
Quote by you:
From the first article:
Oh and also from the article:
In other words Israel can build missile interceptors.
And then you even quote the article:
In other words, being able to access more interceptors is a key thing for European NATO members. Israel can make more of those.
Oh and this is from the US, who stopped Patriot missile sales to Ukraine BEFORE the war against Iran for months, because Zelensky did not war a suit. I would not be surprised if US stockpiles do not matter in a war at all, because the US is unwilling to sell them to Europe. That obviously would make Israel an even more important option.
Yes I did read the article and no, none of your points establish that Israel is an ally of Europe or Ukraine, you have only established that Israel has increased political leverage of them.
The US and Israel planned the Iran War at least months in advance? This proves nothing.
Israel has supplied Ukraine with air defence interceptors last year. That was months after the the US halted all military aid to Ukraine.
A SINGLE PATRIOT SYSTEM does not make up for all the missiles fired in the war of choice that is the Iran War, that Israel and the US chose to start arbitrarily.
Israel commits genocide.
So they got support from the experts.
So does germany.
Using today's definition of "genocide" per UN, even Canada commits genocide, and HAMAS for that matter.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
Neither Hamas and Canada are destroying 70% of other people infrastructures and are currently creating a famine by bombing 85% of the agricultural field .
Hamas eliminates 100% of palestinians who are deemed not to support hamas. Hamas has even been killing the members of a competing party/paramilitary, Fatah. Or other palestinians, who hope to coexist with Israel. Or only are believed to be neutral to the neighbouring country.
And hamas certainly eliminates each and every palestinian who is suspected to be helping to locate and free any israeli, captured by hamas.
Yup. Other than that, hamas is so very good and perfectly nice. "Why so serious?" /s
Israel is doing every single goddamn atrocities Hamas did for 78 goddamn year . Don't claim that you care about any Palestinians when you support the side doing the genocide
I would only suggest or expect, that you (as well as any other person) to stop lying and putting your own words into others' mouth. But in the end it's your choice - and your responsibility. And you've just lied 💁
And I certainly keep considering any life as precious and sacred - especially of those, who have little chances of vocalising their peaceful humane believes (like palestinians in the hands of the ruthless hamas paramilitaries - or protesting citizens inside putler's Russia). That is my choice - NOT your barbaric claims.
Everybody is lying except supporter of settler colonialism like you. I oppose hamas atrocities and israel atrocities .
Colonizers in the West Bank are burning homes, beating up the elderly, and attacking livestock. Israel built the colonies, put the colonizers on the land, armed the colonizers, and protects them when they commit their acts of terrorism
The barbaric rhetoric comes from you
I don't - and can't - take any of your claims - as i have just noted how you are lying when presenting your barbaric ideas for my believes.
It's nice that at least you're trying to claim to oppose atrocities
Why should Palestinians pay for what the roman did to the jews?
The definition show that Israel is committing genocide. Hamas may have genocidal statement but they are not committing one right now .
The intent to destroy a population partially or fully fit the definition of genocide. The destruction of agricultural fields cause famine and would force Palestinians to be ethnically cleansed or dying from starvation
You are claiming that all the land belong to israel forever , so you are basically supporting the genocide of Palestinians . East Jerusalem and west bank which Israel is colonizing is Palestinians not Israel.
Palestinians are basically Israelites that converted to Islam and was Arabized
Germany always manages to be on the wrong side of history
I think Germany has a special relationship with "whiteness" that makes it especially vulnerable to fascism, especially in how Germany is perceived and treated by other groups of white people.
Also though, Germany is a culture bursting with contradictions, within a year of Mein Kempf being published another novel was published The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann by an originally German author who moved to the US.
The Magic Mountain is firmly cemented in German culture... and is indisputably one of the best novels ever written in German or English and is certainly one of the most humanist and openly accepting of humanity in all its "failures" of any great novel of the 20th century. The Magic Mountain is the most supremely antifascist novel imaginable and it is equally allergic to racism and discrimination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mann
History is a nightmare from which we are trying to awake.
No that's the US. Racism in Germany and Europe as a whole, has always been about cultural and ethnic differences more than skin color. The persecuted slavs or jews were just as pasty as any German, unlike the "honorary Aryans" in Japan.
Two different authors with different backgrounds writing different books? What a uniquely contradictory culture Germany is.
Disregard that one of them is lauded for its literary and cultural significance while the other is basically as important as the art of the deal.
And of course the explanation for contemporary German culture and its problematic relation to Israel can be found in the literature of 1924.
Nothing significant happened since then, right? Everyone was on vacation in the 30s and 40s. Occupation, the Cold War, the literal formation of the country of Israel? Surely none of the could have any relevance.
I do agree that the Magic Mountain is a great book.
But although some of its themes do go against aspects of fascism, calling it "the most supremely antifascist novel imaginable " seems a bit of a stretch.
ahahahaha
Read The Color Purple or Their Eyes Were Watching God, the idea that racism actually cares about skin tone in any consistent way anywhere is impossible, contradictory and absurd, it is always mixed up with ethnicity, context and imposed categories. Germany is just the same as any other racist society in that respect. Check your ignorance.
You added nothing to this conversation other than a sense of condescencion.
The Magic Mountain is one of the most supremely antifascist novels ever written and its perspective from the eve of WW1 mirrors our current position with eerie and foreboding syncronicity. The Magic Mountain is easily one of the most important novels of the 20th century, if not all time.
https://henryeliot.substack.com/p/the-magic-mountain
Come up with a better argument if you want to cut me down.
Do they contain sociological studies that support your claim that
Otherwise I don't see what you think this is adding to the conversation.
As for The Magic Mountain:
We currently don't have European empires in a mutual standoff waiting for the powder-keg to be lit. By all accounts most people are more reminded of the inter-war period with the rising fascism.
I never disagreed but being important does not automatically make it anti-fascist.
And just like his cold war experiences that you quoted before, this happened after he published Zauberberg in 1924.
At the time, Mussolini's regime had barely begun and Hitler was a failed putschist in jail.
Dude, your only "arguments" are wikipedia quotes about Mann's life after he published the book, completely unrelated literature recommendations and an unexplained association of fascism with the eve of WWI.
I honestly find it hilarious you don't think The Magic Mountain is one of the most antifascist novels ever written, and one of the most effective and wholistic takedowns of fascism ever created in any form ever... your understanding of history must be so mutilated into discrete bloody boxes one preceding after another with no connection between one and another...
https://yalereview.org/article/morten-jensen-thomas-mann
I beg you to open a history book and look up when the rise of fascism happened.
In 1924 the NSDAP was a bunch of violent thugs pretending to be socialists. Their rise to power happened a decade later. The only fascist was Mussolini and he had not yet fully implemented all that we nowadays call fascism.
You have not made one single argument that actually ties anything in the book to fascism.
You keep quoting articles about Mann's later life but the only reference you made to the book itself was mentioning the eve of WWI which at least time-wise sets the action before the rise of fascism.
You have not identified one anti-fascist theme in the book nor quoted any literary analysis that does so.
If you desperately want to make this argument, then you have to ask yourself:
What is fascism? What are its defining characteristics? Where does the book address them?
And which themes are specific to fascism? Contemplating mortality as such is not.
So you did not bother to read the article I linked before responding?
Yes I have.
This comment is so true.
I stole it from Stephen Dedalus :P
It's only the wrong side if you lose.
@HieroProtagonist @blackshirt
That has traditionally been the case because the historical account was the exclusive copyright of the "winner".
Now, however (as we can see e.g. with Israel's century of terrorism and crimes against humanity), the truth is harder to hide.
#Germany is on the wrong side of history, and that won't change, whoever "wins".
And do you see any sign of a downfall of those who are on the - in your opinion - "wrong side"?
@HieroProtagonist
No.
Sooo...
We are part of a genocide... i can't believe our government approves this...
I can believe it.
Ffs Germany, why do you do this
for more 💶💶💶
I mean... you don't think they feel a little guilty about what they've done to Jewish people in the past?
Pretty fucking dumb to endorse Genocide to the tune of ~1 billion because of guilt about conducting a Genocide...
It is dumb, yes, but humans aren't always rational about such emotionally intense things as that scale of national guilt
No, this is an extremely rational colonialist decision made by big German business interests.
The rational being selling stuff gives you money, i dont think they really care who dies, as long as there is someone left to be their customer.
I am from the USA so that is a totally, utterly perposterous idea to me, my bad I didn't realize Europe is so much less civilized than USA.
I step on a rake and smack myself in the face
I didn't say it was a smart decision. Emotions can make people do irrational things. And if they feel that badly about what happened in the past, I could see this hard overcorrection.
They ain't exactly rushing to defend transsexual people worldwide. Way more than just Jewish people were killed in the Holocaust. They only feel guilty about the Jewish ones?
Israel claims that only Jews were victims of the Holocaust.
Nope, never said or even implied that but whatever makes you feel good posting I guess
Thank you for your insight on the German psyche, Adolf Schmitler.
o7
No, i don't think so. Black people also suffered from german empires you don't see germany defending for example the rsf
I mean fair point but you only really hear about the Jewish victims. Of course there were others as well but most of the things I've seen about the holocaust focus on Germany and Jewish people.
That’s the thing: the holocaust was not Germany’s only genocide. People only focus on the holocaust because it’s still technically in living memory and because Germany had streamlined its techniques to the point that they were able to commit genocide on a scale the world wasn’t expecting.
Wow I had no idea. Only about 100 years ago too.
The international public was always much more concerned about the Jews, that is obviously going to shape the German perception about what they should feel guilty about.
Should i mention all the terrorists attack the Zionists did that target other jews? Did germany condemned israel bombing a synagogues in Iran?
I'm talking about the public perception, not whether it's justified by facts.
62% of German voters believe that Israel's military actions in Gaza constitute genocide
Yet more than half of the voters actively support the genocide In the voting booth; I'd take this number with a grain of salt
OK? I'm not disputing that. But I'm talking about history and the international public opinion, especially international public opinion in the decades immediately after WW2, not the opinion of the German population or the fact that it's pretty easy to argue that Israel itself is antisemitic.
Rich ppl making money is a universal threat to all nations.
We have a major global oligarch problem.
we do, but how is that related to Israel acquiring arms?
Because the oligarchs want to turn Gaza into a corporate owned city.
Germany sending weapons there tells me that Germany may well be under the same influence the US is.
That does not follow. Israel and Germany have been trading arms since the 1950s.
These are just mutually beneficial trade deals. No malicious intent regarding Gaza required.
Israel has for example some pretty good air defense capabilities, and in the current deteriorated security environment the German government is justified in continuing weapons trade with Israel.
lol Israel has the greatest air defence that American research and tax dollars can provide. I guess getting those repackaged lemons makes it feel like a fair trade.
Sure let's collaborate with a settler colonial power. The settler colonialism is replacing one group with, another basically you are fine with the extermination of palestinians because it is mutually beneficial to Israel and germany
No, I'm not basically fine with.
ffs, can we have a bit of nuance? regarding Israel/Palestine, this crowd is absolutely rabid.
The nuance is that israel is the settler colonial power currently exterminating Palestinians from their land and Palestinians are the colonized which unfortunately committed atrocities themselves. It is not nuance to claim both side are equally bad. Similar to how the allies in world war 2 committed ton of atrocities against the axis populations and in the colonized African lands, it didn't change the fact that it was right to support the allies over the axis .
WTF are you doing Germany? up to your old tricks i see
They're trying to master the race to the bottom.
> Gives Israel a billion dollars, because they're so sorry.
> Still elects Nazis.
Edit: Although, Jesus, people are big mad at them in here. Russia and "Belarus" are still the problem, and Germany is still a valuable member of the EU.
Jesus, you are a prolific ("big, very big") troll for normalizing putler alone -- and especially so when normalizing putler's Russia in comparison to an EU member state. No shame, no clues. Yet - thousands of posts. Omg.
Did you reply to the wrong person?
If not, the edit makes it pretty clear I'm not siding with Russia.
Ok, thanks! That helped 🖐️
That's so sad... 😑
Fuck.
Welcome to WW3 :)
The US feels like it's an Axis power, atm.
German people in power dont do a genocide, challenge level: IMPOSSIBLE.
tho tbf it seema most other governments in eu have this brain bug as well. Bibi really got the boomers in a stranglehold
I think it's time for the German elite to let it go. That's it, it was awful, but it was almost a century ago. No living German was part of it. It's time to move on.
This Germany was the one who let most of the profiteurs of the holocaudt walk away and looked away until the '68 revolte pushed that it couldn't be looked away anymore.
The German elite should learn better lessons from it, that no people should be discriminated and violated and that no war is justified.
To remember is to change.
Exactly. No living palestinian nor israeli was part of the UN suggestion of the two state solution (which was rejected and a war was started...and was lost. Then another one.). So, time to move on?
In reality it looks more convenient not to move on - but to act as if the 1947 plan by UN hasn't been rejected...by the very own predecessors.
It's not the responsibility of today's Germany to help the two sides out of the conflict where they are stuck for decades now. Both not even recognising as states (so not respecting borders?).
Germany signed many international treaties forcing then legally to act and help Palestinians. Those treaties did not tell Germany to give weapons for decades so Israel exterminate palestinians.
The two state solution was always a non solution. Jews didn't have enough territories anywhere to make a state without ethenic cleansing.
As long as the resources (provided by Germany and others) in Gaza are handled and distributed by local paramilitaries (hamass) - and the same help can be seen as supporting and enabling attacks as the 7th of October (which you conveniently ignore)
You're blaming the other side (ignoring - or maybe approving?! - the atrocities made by the other)
Israel is the settler colonial. It is like saying we should have not support neither ukraine and russia or we should have neither supporter the allies and the axis. You are the same type of people who would have defended the slave owners after the Nat Turner uprise.
Yo are part of the problem , you are against international obligation that obligate germany legally to stop all aid to Israel
There is no point in time when Ukraine has been building own identity solely on eliminating Russia.
And i have yet to witness any official voices inside Gaza appealing to coexist with the neighbouring country of Israel.
Until these voices freely and safely exist, as political representatives and an economical local force (and not being killed by any paramilitary like hamass or fatah) - I will not buy ANY deceitful and false comparison to Ukraine.
Israel is building an identity on eliminating palestinians and currently doing it. The day palestinians are free they will accept coexistence. Black South african accepted coexistence once the oppressor let them free
Israel is the colonizer, Russia is the colonizer there is no false equivalence
The PA recognized Israel and stopped any military activity Israel tqhnks them by building more colonies and arming and protecting the settler terrorism. The golan height did not attack Israel for decades, Israel continue to colonize it
What the actual fuck? It seems like no world government is actually carrying out the will of its citizens anymore. I eagerly await a global revolution where we all make it stop.
Yes as long as you vote for a politician no matter what there is zero incensitive to act
Would be much cooler if they also sold 2 billion dollars worth of arms exports to their neighborsto keep everyone happy...
Not just any exports. Includes a nuclear launch capable submarine for one of the 4 countries not party to the non proliferation treaty. Good stuff
Wrong
Vorsprung Durch Vernichtung
Vorteil durch Selbstzerstörung
Just goes to show...business first! Make Germany great again! /s
Germany: Since 1914 on the wromg side of history.
Oh, come on, that's one hell of a false equivalency.
Even WWI was basically different colonial empires fighting over colonies. You can't really call them the bad guys before the Nazis came to power, and while people here will disagree which Germany was the better one afterwards, you probably like one of the two.
1904
Wait what does bibi have on the leader of Germany?
"If you don't do everything I say, I'm calling you an antisemite and a nazi!" - sounds dumb, but I'm pretty sure that's essentially what it is. And it worked practically every time on every German leader since Hitler, so far.
Nothing, Merz is just a massive piece of shit and seemingly fully immune to any level of shame.
Hardly, maybe bibi does but Germany would have likely supported Israel the same way the US would have likely supported Israel whether or not bibi has any "blackmail" or whatever on leaders in the US.
I mean, what German politician was it who said "Israel does our dirty work for us?"
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-merz-says-israel-doing-dirty-work-for-us-in-iran/live-72939104
Ah yes, the leader of Germany!
... In Iran. If you're gonna quote, don't do that in a disingenuous way.
The Iran War and the Palestinian Genocide are directly linked, I am not being disingenuous.
Are they though?
Yes you ignorant fool
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-iran-war-is-about-palestine
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/iran-links-attacks-to-israels-war-in-gaza-intl
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67188346
https://studies.aljazeera.net/en/analyses/war-no-one-can-win-why-shattering-iranian-regime-strategic-miscalculation
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/gazas-roadmap-nowhere-why-israel-wont-give-control
https://www.lemkininstitute.com/red-flag-alerts/red-flag-alert%3A-israel-u.s.-war-of-aggression-against-iran
Do you want me to keep going?
Germany has no right to exist.
How dare you antichristian!!