But Ukraine also needs troops. This is what Europe should propose to Putin. Russia will withdraw from all land it seized from Ukraine after the 2022 invasion. NATO would be dissolved and replaced with a European alliance. Ukraine and Canada would be permitted to join but not the US. All sanctions against Russia will be lifted. Russia will not be required to pay reparations. If Putin doesn't accept the proposal, the UK and France would send troops to Ukraine.
Financial war reparations are not always effective and usually end up punishing the civilian population disproportionately. See: how Germany was treated post WWI.
Actual accountability would involve dismantling Russia's ruling oligarchy and Putinism. Better reparation packages would involve Russia directly contributing to rebuilding Ukraine's damages, which would help, not hinder, both country's economies.
The reparations scheme in the Treaty of Versialles had a far worse worse bark than the bite. Over 60% of the amount requested were C bonds that charged no interest and had no schedule for payment and so were basically a fiction designed to make the peace look better for Entente civilians furious at Germany over the war but without excessively burdening Germany. The A and B bonds were less than what Germany had offered to pay up.
However, Germany almost immediately set about not paying the payments it agreed to nor making up for it in shipping out goods like coal to France which was a flexibility that was permitted to make payment easier for Germany. That caused a crisis so they actually offered to pay Germany for each shipmint of coal to France to make it easier for them to keep paying… and they STILL continued to default on their obligations dozens of times even as the coal quotas were lowered. France and Belgium got fed up with this since much of their richest land had been turned into a moonscape by the war, they were in economic crisis that the reparations they were not receiving could help with, and Germany appeared to be acting in bad faith on meeting its obligations, so they launched the occupation of the Ruhr to secure the resources to pay off the German reparations manually since Germany wasn’t contributing as had been threatened earlier.
This was not an especially great economic salve because the cost of the occupation ate up most of the reparations they got. In the meantime, this incensed Germans and the government had the Germans in the Ruhr strike and largely refuse to work for the foreigners. They needed money to keep not working, so the government paid them more and more paper marks to just sit on their butts. Churning out a huge amount of money to go to non-productive ends after already having a policy of spending crazy amounts of paper marks to secure gold-backed currency and paying the massive debt owed to German people (the German war effort in WWI was financed by debt rather than more taxes) led to hyperinflation which devastated the German economy and also made the internal debts more or less irrelevant at the expense of all the Germans who thought they’d be seeing a return on those loans to the government. Though, the gold based foreign debt not so much.
This led to a lot of political instability in Germany which frightened the US because if Germany had a coup from the political extremes then they might decide to default on their debts entirely which would be really bad because that could destabilize France and the UK which had massively borrowed from the US. So the they got together with the Dawes Plan to end the occupation and get Germany massive amount of loans which were used to stabilize the currency and provide the capital to establish incredibly productive industry, thereby boosting Germany’s economy significantly such that it had more ability to pay reparations and loosening tensions so that they were more willing to and for the first time they were consistently meeting the payments.
Five years later however they were already looking to get it further lowered and that succeeded with the Young Plan which devolved other foreign control of aspects of the German economy to Germany while reducing payments and getting Germany more loans. It would have gone further but while hammering it out an unprecedented financial crisis struck America. The contagion from that spread in quick order to Germany which had significant American debts.
The economic crisis led to political crisis and Germany opted to refuse to pay reparations at all, which also locked it out of being able to borrow from anyone so that was kind of a shot in the foot. America stepped in and made the Hoover Moratorium where Germany didn’t have to pay any reparations for a year. That was considered not enough either and a new conference was called at Lausanne where Germany sought total end of reparations. The reparations were reduced to a paltry 3 billion marks (miniscule compared to the advertised total at the start of the Treaty of Versailles of 132 billion marks) but the Treaty of Lausanne wasn’t fully agreed on so in that vague realm Germany kept paying interest but not reparations based on the Young Plan before Hitler scrapped paying anything at all. It would take another world war for Germant to start paying money again.
Really the Germans were in a material sense better off for it because they got a huge amount of productive industry created off of American loans, consistently stiffed the UK and especially France who were both burdened by their debts to the US and did not get the expected relief from reparations in the intervening years, and America didn’t really make off well in the end from the massive loans to most everyone either because essentially everyone in Europe defaulted on those loans by the early 30s.
Russia will be accountable. In my proposal, Putin must withdraw from all land it seized in the 2022 invasion. Any proposal must be one Putin would be willing to accept otherwise; the war will go on, and Putin will continue sending 3-ton glider bombs. Russia is probably working on bigger bombs.
Yes let's just keep letting dictators get away with genocide. That has always worked well for our world. How about we let Ukraine, the injured party, set the terms?
He's not getting away with genocide. In my plan, he would lose all territory he seized in the 2022 invasion. Ukraine doesn't have the ability to set the terms. It's facing a country with more manpower and resources and requires help from the West.
He is if he gets to keep any of the land, or doesn't have to pay very substantial reparations, or gets to decide which defense treaties Ukraine can or cannot join, such as NATO. Anything short of the terms Ukraine wants russia to abide by is letting him off the hook.
In my plan, he would lose all territory he seized in the 2022 invasion.
What about the territory he's seized since the start of the war in 2014?
Ukraine doesn’t have the ability to set the terms.
They do if they're able to, for example, stay in the fight longer than russia, or if sufficient amounts of shit is heaped upon russia by the international community. As we speak Ukraine is devastating the russian energy industry, one of russia's key sources of income. How much longer before russia can't generate fuel for itself, much less sell it on the international markets?
It’s facing a country with more manpower and resources and requires help from the West.
Manpower? Yes. Resources? Depends which resources you're looking at.
Or, Russia withdraw, returns all the land they stole since 2014, pais reparations, else EU and UK sends troops and force them too.
I am not very excited about my country actively going at war, I am also not excited about having a totalitarian nation invade European countries (Ukraine, Georgia) and get away with it.
Putin will only accept a deal that makes him win, and this is what I meant by getting away with it. We can't have that, we can't have a deal with Putin, that's clear from the start, hasn't change.
Funny I was thinking EU troops should should invade Crimea like they should have in 2014, and EU fighters and bombers should be taking out Russian logistics while Ukraine takes out Russian infrastructure.
Perhaps the EU should strike all of ole vlads houses and bunkers, I think to Poles would love that job
Too many countries sending troops to help Ukraine would cause Putin to claim that he is being overwhelmed and must go nuclear. That is the reason I proposed just France and the UK.
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France Will Provide Ukraine with Licenses to Manufacture Aster 30 and SCALP Missiles and Hammer Bombs | Spyke
15 replies
But Ukraine also needs troops. This is what Europe should propose to Putin. Russia will withdraw from all land it seized from Ukraine after the 2022 invasion. NATO would be dissolved and replaced with a European alliance. Ukraine and Canada would be permitted to join but not the US. All sanctions against Russia will be lifted. Russia will not be required to pay reparations. If Putin doesn't accept the proposal, the UK and France would send troops to Ukraine.
Why are you so determined to convince people Russia should not be held accountable?
This isnt the first time I see your name pop up saying this.
Financial war reparations are not always effective and usually end up punishing the civilian population disproportionately. See: how Germany was treated post WWI.
Actual accountability would involve dismantling Russia's ruling oligarchy and Putinism. Better reparation packages would involve Russia directly contributing to rebuilding Ukraine's damages, which would help, not hinder, both country's economies.
The reparations scheme in the Treaty of Versialles had a far worse worse bark than the bite. Over 60% of the amount requested were C bonds that charged no interest and had no schedule for payment and so were basically a fiction designed to make the peace look better for Entente civilians furious at Germany over the war but without excessively burdening Germany. The A and B bonds were less than what Germany had offered to pay up.
However, Germany almost immediately set about not paying the payments it agreed to nor making up for it in shipping out goods like coal to France which was a flexibility that was permitted to make payment easier for Germany. That caused a crisis so they actually offered to pay Germany for each shipmint of coal to France to make it easier for them to keep paying… and they STILL continued to default on their obligations dozens of times even as the coal quotas were lowered. France and Belgium got fed up with this since much of their richest land had been turned into a moonscape by the war, they were in economic crisis that the reparations they were not receiving could help with, and Germany appeared to be acting in bad faith on meeting its obligations, so they launched the occupation of the Ruhr to secure the resources to pay off the German reparations manually since Germany wasn’t contributing as had been threatened earlier.
This was not an especially great economic salve because the cost of the occupation ate up most of the reparations they got. In the meantime, this incensed Germans and the government had the Germans in the Ruhr strike and largely refuse to work for the foreigners. They needed money to keep not working, so the government paid them more and more paper marks to just sit on their butts. Churning out a huge amount of money to go to non-productive ends after already having a policy of spending crazy amounts of paper marks to secure gold-backed currency and paying the massive debt owed to German people (the German war effort in WWI was financed by debt rather than more taxes) led to hyperinflation which devastated the German economy and also made the internal debts more or less irrelevant at the expense of all the Germans who thought they’d be seeing a return on those loans to the government. Though, the gold based foreign debt not so much.
This led to a lot of political instability in Germany which frightened the US because if Germany had a coup from the political extremes then they might decide to default on their debts entirely which would be really bad because that could destabilize France and the UK which had massively borrowed from the US. So the they got together with the Dawes Plan to end the occupation and get Germany massive amount of loans which were used to stabilize the currency and provide the capital to establish incredibly productive industry, thereby boosting Germany’s economy significantly such that it had more ability to pay reparations and loosening tensions so that they were more willing to and for the first time they were consistently meeting the payments.
Five years later however they were already looking to get it further lowered and that succeeded with the Young Plan which devolved other foreign control of aspects of the German economy to Germany while reducing payments and getting Germany more loans. It would have gone further but while hammering it out an unprecedented financial crisis struck America. The contagion from that spread in quick order to Germany which had significant American debts.
The economic crisis led to political crisis and Germany opted to refuse to pay reparations at all, which also locked it out of being able to borrow from anyone so that was kind of a shot in the foot. America stepped in and made the Hoover Moratorium where Germany didn’t have to pay any reparations for a year. That was considered not enough either and a new conference was called at Lausanne where Germany sought total end of reparations. The reparations were reduced to a paltry 3 billion marks (miniscule compared to the advertised total at the start of the Treaty of Versailles of 132 billion marks) but the Treaty of Lausanne wasn’t fully agreed on so in that vague realm Germany kept paying interest but not reparations based on the Young Plan before Hitler scrapped paying anything at all. It would take another world war for Germant to start paying money again.
Really the Germans were in a material sense better off for it because they got a huge amount of productive industry created off of American loans, consistently stiffed the UK and especially France who were both burdened by their debts to the US and did not get the expected relief from reparations in the intervening years, and America didn’t really make off well in the end from the massive loans to most everyone either because essentially everyone in Europe defaulted on those loans by the early 30s.
Russia will be accountable. In my proposal, Putin must withdraw from all land it seized in the 2022 invasion. Any proposal must be one Putin would be willing to accept otherwise; the war will go on, and Putin will continue sending 3-ton glider bombs. Russia is probably working on bigger bombs.
Yes let's just keep letting dictators get away with genocide. That has always worked well for our world. How about we let Ukraine, the injured party, set the terms?
He's not getting away with genocide. In my plan, he would lose all territory he seized in the 2022 invasion. Ukraine doesn't have the ability to set the terms. It's facing a country with more manpower and resources and requires help from the West.
He is if he gets to keep any of the land, or doesn't have to pay very substantial reparations, or gets to decide which defense treaties Ukraine can or cannot join, such as NATO. Anything short of the terms Ukraine wants russia to abide by is letting him off the hook.
What about the territory he's seized since the start of the war in 2014?
They do if they're able to, for example, stay in the fight longer than russia, or if sufficient amounts of shit is heaped upon russia by the international community. As we speak Ukraine is devastating the russian energy industry, one of russia's key sources of income. How much longer before russia can't generate fuel for itself, much less sell it on the international markets?
Manpower? Yes. Resources? Depends which resources you're looking at.
If Ukraine believes it can defeat Russia, I'm all for it but remember someone posted an article in this community about Ukrainian troops deserting.
Or, Russia withdraw, returns all the land they stole since 2014, pais reparations, else EU and UK sends troops and force them too.
I am not very excited about my country actively going at war, I am also not excited about having a totalitarian nation invade European countries (Ukraine, Georgia) and get away with it.
Putin won't give up Crimea or pay reparations. A proposal must be one Putin is willing to accept otherwise, the killing will continue.
Putin will only accept a deal that makes him win, and this is what I meant by getting away with it. We can't have that, we can't have a deal with Putin, that's clear from the start, hasn't change.
Putin will accept a deal in which he can win something but not everything he wants if he realizes he can't get everything.
Funny I was thinking EU troops should should invade Crimea like they should have in 2014, and EU fighters and bombers should be taking out Russian logistics while Ukraine takes out Russian infrastructure.
Perhaps the EU should strike all of ole vlads houses and bunkers, I think to Poles would love that job
Too many countries sending troops to help Ukraine would cause Putin to claim that he is being overwhelmed and must go nuclear. That is the reason I proposed just France and the UK.