There is no taking. By having a child you automatically give to him a lifetime of support. That's your role as a parent. Children are not your slaves. If you don't want to accept that, don't have children.
My opinion also, but in a slightly darker radical tone that I never share otherwise: bringing someone into this world of suffering is a misguided act of unconscious selfishness and whoever does so owes all available effort to reduce that suffering. In practice, no one is able to acquit themselves of this debt, which is why I hope I never have kids...
That's a very nihilistic view that implies existence is not worth anything. Personally, I believe that existing is actually beautiful and worth experiencing, even if it sucks sometimes and has inherit suffering. Otherwise we might as well all lie down, stop eating or drinking, and wait for death. Kids don't see the world as suffering and pain — they enjoy every moment with unjaded, curious eyes.
In this context, where we're talking about having children, would you do it better? You wouldn't let your kids suffer the same way you did, right? That's called generational healing.
Yeah, I adopted a couple of younger trans people with bad parents. I'm helping then develop life skills and build resilience and look the way they want to look.
@Zarobi sure, because they are already here. If you could prevent that, wouldnt you? Seems cruel to allow that. Similarly if i had a debilitating hereditary condition why the hell would I pass it on?
The thing is, you can't predetermine if they'll have cancer or some other rare conditions before existing. There's very good screening tests nowadays to help prevent that as well. To me, it seems like a strange morality for that to be your reason to avoid having children. It's anticipatory grief, like not making friends because they might die. By the same logic, what if your child is the one that discovers the cure to cancer? In that case, it's cruel not to have them, but you can't know, so it's a moot point. Unless you do know, in which case send me a DM, I'm in need of a mystic.
Hereditary conditions are a whole different conversation.
@Zarobi the whole "my kid will be the smartestest and cure cancer" argument is why we are in the state we are in. That phrase is also often used by religious nutjobs.
The difference between "I shouldn't make friends cuz they'll just die" is easy: we are already here , against our will, so let's make the best of it.
I counter with: your child could be Hitler 3.0, See how that point is just plain dumb? Every human thinks their special child will be the smartest and best next president.
If you truly believe what you say, don’t just hope you don’t have kids. Either get fixed or don’t have sex.
And I already put my money where my mouth is, I got fixed to ensure I will never get pregnant.
Edit: Sorry if I come off rude in a comment like this. As the daughter of a man who didn’t want his kids and blamed my mom for getting pregnant, I get really frustrated when I see guys “hope” they don’t have kids or when guys whine about taking care of the kids they didn’t want. Don’t want kids? Get fixed or don’t have sex.
The dude I replied to understood that and started the process. It’s sexy when guys take control of their fertility like that. More men should be like this guy.
You're totally right. I really should, and I will.
EDIT: I actually started scheduling a vasectomy right now. I had wanted to do one before but things were a little more complicated then and it had slipped my mind in the meantime / did not seem as relevant. Now is a perfect time however.
Honestly dude, good for you! And I promise I’m not being facetious here. I’m super happy you got motivated to get a vasectomy. I had my fallopian tubes removed a few years ago and it was a massive weight lifted off my shoulders to know I will never again be pregnant.
I’m really fucking proud of you for taking that step!
I have no idea where you get the idea that having kids is selfish. I spend so much of my time, attention, money and love on them. We share their pain, success and all their ups and downs. My wife gave up her career as an architect to spend more time with them.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human. And this might be news for you, but this world was always a rough place to be if you’re not born rich.
And if you’re hinting that your kid's CO2 footprint and consumption potentially contribute to climate change, you’re also forfeiting their chance to contribute to positive changes.
I think it’s more that the act itself, of having the child, is a choice that is made without the consent of the life being brought into the world. Every child is forced into existence through decisions that are not their own.
Of course, it’s impossible to get consent from the violated party, but it’s still a decision parents take for their own reasons, not the child’s reasons.
The kid didn't need to exist, you made them do so because you wanted something from them for you or those around you, things like love, something to care about, a helping hand etc.
That is selfish by definition.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human.
That is selfish AND human. Although something being human isn't very relevant, considering things like greed or ill will are also human.
Wanting future generations to fix climate change is also pretty selfish, so it's a bad example. They're also likely to be powerless just like us.
Of course, not having kids in order to not make them suffer is also selfish, but It causes the least ammount of pain, well, except for the part where you will have to take care of yourself when older, but thats our problem.
You're the meme.
Did they asked to be there? Yes you're "giving" them a lot of your energy, but they are owed that. That's not generosity, that's responsibility.
Having kids is inherently selfish. Prove me wrong! Name a single reason to have them that doesn't involve you.
By that logic taking care of a pet or senile relatives is also selfish. Or working as a missionary, or emergency worker. It boils down to the question if being selfless is in itself a selfish decision.
Were we just stupid? Naive? Following our biological program? I don’t know. But I know that I love my children above all else and would throw myself under a bus to save them.
I guess it can be hard to imagine loving someone without expecting anything in return, if you haven’t received that kind of love yourself.
Amusement? Give me a effing break! Quick, call up your parents and ask them how amused they were wiping your ass and cleaning after you! How funny it was taking care of you when you were sick and keeping them up at night. And then tell them how selfish it was of them.
I got one child, bringing her into this world was definitely a selfish act, we talked about it, weighted the state of the world and everything going on, we came slightly positive, since then the moron in charge if the usa has murdered so much more people, statistically and absolutely, made the world worse for everyone, my own government are the most stupist selfish people i can imagine and yet we wanted someone to give knowledge and things, and yet i fear that she will hate me for being in this world once she realise how fucked up everything is. Creating her was selfish, no doubt
There are plenty of reasons that aren't selfish. You can do it for humanity, for justice, for style points, for Narnia... If you want to logick those into being selfish, that's your own moral framework talking. Every action is a subjective choice from a subjective perspective in the end, but people can still have non-selfish intentions, however misguided you may judge them.
I think you're missing the point. Having a child for Narnia is not selfish, it is literally for the good of Narnia to have another strong Narnian. But you're operating under a moral framework where even the good of Narnia is ultimately good for the Narnian, therefore it is selfish to want Narnia to be strong.
Do you have to agree with the idea of a strong Narnia? Of course not. But it's a very narrow way of thinking to explain every human motivation through selfishness.
@thepig in my experience these folks think everyone is either rich or has zero disabilities of any kind when thats actually about .00000001% of humans. Or theyre really young and have no idea how much life sucks (but make the best of it anyway if youre here)
@BlueOysterCultist I mean, mine wasnt great (childhood abuse) but I make the most of it myself. Theres definitely fun to be had. I just see zero reason to drag an unconsenting person into the world. Like, why? If people were actually not selfish, they'd adopt. I am selfish and I enjoy my alone time, so I will probably end up doing neither.
@thepig agree. I'd say in general, my life has maybe been 15-20% enjoyment, the rest was either meh or outright sucked. The enjoyment portion gets smaller as one gets older, especially if you aren't raking in cash by the time youre 40, you won't have a fun time.
Might not be selfless as such, and I'm not in any position to speak for women in general, but when that biological drive kicks in, it can do so pretty damn hard.
That's still satisfying your own need, but perhaps more subconsciously so than people having children without thought or care.
Me and my wife agreed on not having children when we were young, but we've never regretted the son we got after a pretty radical twist in our mid 20's. I could go on, but it's complicated.
In today's world, if I were young again, I'd never even give it serious thought, though. Different times, although it doesn't feel that long ago.
In all honesty, lots of people have children not even because they especially want to, but because they feel obligated to by their role in society. That's not a reason many people are likely to give, but it's not a selfish reason.
@thepig everyone wants people to have kids, no one wants to pay or take the time for them. If you dont have immediate family nearby, have fun with $2k/month daycare bills on $9/hr minimum wage! Its a joke.
Meeting your obligations is the most unselfish thing you can possibly do. Doing things out of obligation to others is the fundamental unit of unselfishness.
They care about an ethereal being that has not yet even started to exist ?
Couldn't they care about something before it comes into existence?
so surely they must not care about something that doesn’t exist
I don't understand how you arrive at this outcome that you cannot care about something that doesn't exist. Lower stakes example: gamers cared about GTA 6 before it came out. People care about future entries into game series that haven't even been thought up yet.
People care about the concept of things that don't exist enough to make them want to exist.
did they ask the future kid’s soul if it want to come into existence?
If you believe in souls, and believe they exist before birth, then I'm curious about why you think it would be selfish to bring souls to experience the mortal plane of existence. Would it not be a function of a soul to be brought here?
Cause before they conceive the child, the child doesn’t exist
According to this thought experiment, their soul exists but they don't? They meaning their physical body? I guess that makes sense.
But still: people can care about things that don't exist yet.
Just in case it isn't clear: none of the above is said with any animosity, and I'm not talking down to you.
My wife and I have a family to give you a justification to not have children. So, I'm glad I could make you feel better about your choice. That was pretty selfless of us I think.
@NoSpotOfGround yeah simply put youre totally right. Sure, there's good in this world (if youre rich) but lets face it, life is mostly bad and we would all rather be having an eternal slumber instead. We are just here making the most of it because we have to. Say this in public IRL and youll be utterly crucified though. To me its just logic. If you have a kid either by accident or choice, I dont care. But dont make me feel like its required.
But an overwhelming desire to protect your children from suffering will ultimately just lead to them suffering more.
Anyway, the word for that feeling you have is "anti-natalism"--that it is unethical to bring children into the world because non-existence is preferable to likely misery.
I think it's exactly that, although that's a name I've only learned of recently... Sorry about the weirding out. I can understand how it sounds when it's not a conclusion you've reached on your own already.
Existing is more pleasurable than not existing, and you can always choose to stop existing if you want. On balance, it is better to be born than not to be.
When they say "You owe me for ______", ask them: "How much?"
See if you can get them to put a dollar amount on it.
Not that anything particularly useful will come of such a conversation, but it will be kind of funny. Possibly it might even cause them to think a little bit. Maybe you can wrap up the conversation by telling them, "Well, I'm not paying it. You can try to sue me for it."
seriously my mom would tell us about all the rapes happening on the daily. wasn't till I could comprehend basic statistics did I realize how many screws she had loose.
I might suggest that the biggest reason I sit inside all day is that it's fucking 95° with 60% humidity. But also, screens are hypnotizing, especially for little kids. My son would absolutely lock in on Ms Racheal or Bluey for hours a day if I let him. But he also loves to kick his soccer ball and dunk his basketball in his little stand when the TV isn't on. And I'm fine with that, because he's not plowing face first into a kid twice his size. Or trying to back kick one of his friends across the room.
Also, I've never needed to buy my son a drum kit because everything is a drum kit to that kid. We can talk about a kit when he gets to middle school and shows he's got the desire to practice, maintain the equipment, and not break anything when he loses his temper.
While full contact sports (and the associated CTE) are dangerous, there's alternative combat sports that avoid it, like wrestling, judo, and jiu jitsu. Mainly grappling.
That being said, competitive olympic wresting is pretty toxic regarding weight and diet. Lots of extreme dieting to get in the wanted weight range for tournaments, which is terrible for teenagers. Plus, jiu jitsu is the dude-bro sport right now, so might want to avoid that too.
Mainly what I'm getting at is that judo is good if you think your kid might be into it
there’s alternative combat sports that avoid it, like wrestling, judo, and jiu jitsu.
There's definitely alternatives to full-contact football that are lower-impact, especially wrt to the head. But I've got a friend who runs a jiu-jitsu gym and he's constantly got wraps on something. Fingers are really common. Knees are bad, too. He nearly dislocated his shoulder after a bad throw. One of his friends managed to brain herself in the middle of a throw when she bounced her head off her partner's hipbone and had to be treated for a concussion.
My sister and I did taekwondo as kids. Other than the occasional sparing (lots of pads, relatively light contact), it was all about flexibility and learning the forms. You still get injured overextending or balancing wrong. But it's comparatively far better for kids than actual combat sports.
Like, if you're old enough to make your own decisions, more power to you. But if you're coming off Ninja Turtles as a 12-year-old, hell no. The combat sports are a recipe for getting wrecked.
judo is good if you think your kid might be into it
Of the three, it's probably the best. I would still stick my kid in a karate-themed exercise class, if it came to that.
These can also get hella expensive, depending on who you're training with and where. I can definitely understand a parent not being able to afford private lessons, much less the time to commute with practice. And the kid - not understanding the economic reality - deciding their parent is just being mean, or overprotective, or small-minded.
Full contact sports should be adapted to children to have no full contact. If it's not the case, the teachers are morons, dangerous and probably criminals, and you should obviously not leave your kids there.
In fact, regarding full contact combat sports, even for adults training does not involve full contact to the head in most cases, only competitions and examinations may. There's a lot of choice of schools and rulesets, so adults can choose whatever level of contact they are comfortable with.
Oh no! My child might get hurt playing a game! Little Jhonnythan is far too valuable to be put in harms way no matter how much he'll develop emotionally and intelligently by playing . I'm an amazing parent!
How is that more specifically bad vs any other sport with contact built into it, like baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, lacrosse, rugby... Even more individual sports have incidents like curling and tennis.
Maybe your soft child might be good at golf? But they could strain leg muscles, pull a hip, should injuries are common among golfers...
I've played sports my whole life. Never has there ever been a sport where the goal is to "injure the other player".
Your ignorance is showing. I've accidentally hurt others, and others have unintentionally hurt me. Shit happens. I've torn a muscle in my shoulder from a bad hit in hockey. I've also severely sprained my ankle walking to my driveway. If you want to bubble wrap your kids and protect them from all the harm in the world, enjoy raising a completely incompetent leech on society that is dependant on you their whole life.
My parents gave as much as they could. I never thought it was enough when I was a kid. Now that I'm in my forties, I know just how much that was.
I come from work tired as fuck and I know my old man was the same way, but he still found time to take me to the playground and then taught me math and English every night. My mom did the exact same but there was always a lunch and a dinner cooked for my ungrateful ass.
Through it all, they always loved me and said they were proud of me.
Okay so my search wasn't working, but here's the full portion:
I turn my body from the sun. What ho, Tashtego! Let me hear thy hammer. Oh! ye three unsurrendered spires of mine; thou uncracked keel; and only god-bullied hull; thou firm deck, and Pole-pointed prow,—death-glorious ship! must he then perish, and without me? Am I cut off from the last fond pride of meanest shipwrecked captains? Oh, lonely death on lonely life! Oh, now I feel my topmost greatness lies in my topmost grief. Ho, ho! from all your furthest bounds, pour ye now in, ye bold billows of my whole foregone life, and top this one piled comber of my death! Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hellcs heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool! And since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee, though tied to thee, thou damned whale! Thus, I give up the spear!
There's a lot of archaic language and nautical terminology there, but its much more about grief and abandon and madness, it shows a weakness, a frenzied hopeless death drive as much or more than the determination and strength implied by the shorter quote the space-nazi shouts.
That's my monster boomer mother. Also include "while you live under MY roof... blah-blah". I spent my early childhood not feeling like I had a home. I was just visiting her house. Nothing was mine. She of course forgets my father paid for that house and she got it for free in the divorce.
She'd also say to me "the world doesn't owe you a living." She only had a high school degree and a year as a "kelly girl". That turned into a secretary job at a community college, which later turned into a better secretary job at a huge aerospace company. After a few years that paid more than enough to live and she got stocks and a pension out of the deal. Her aunt died and left her a fortune (none for me). She's one of those boomers that did the bare minimum in life, sits on a pile of free cash, free house, retired early, and complains about people on welfare or "damn government handouts". Meanwhile she has never contributed anything of value to society, never volunteers, never donates to charity. She's a fucking leach.
Oh yeah. When parents got divorced, she got primary custody of me. She was so insane, I ended up moving to my fathers house when I was 10. My father continued to pay her child support to stop her from filing a complaint with the court about me living with him (He was chill and figured it was the easy way to deal with her). So add that to the list of free money to her.
Anyway, now she's old, fat, stupid, with no friends and will die alone. I actually expect her to die in the house alone and they'll find her weeks later after her cat has chewed out chunks of her. LOL. Good kitty.
That's what I'm doing. The pain of my childhood will not be passed on as more generational trauma.
I had a similar childhood, and had minimal contact in the last 10-15 years of her life. My mom ended up homeless and would have died on the street if her brother wasn't willing to take her in. It was my fault she ended up homeless, because I moved out and stopped being the parent in the relationship.
I never want my child to feel about me the way my mother made me feel about her, and I'm doing the hard work to make myself a better person and parent than what I was taught to be.
It sucks because it's like sitting there holding up a leaning pile of bricks, and you know as soon as you move it's falling, but you only have 1 life and you deserve to spend it doing more than fixing other people's mistakes.
For anyone confused and making "parenting is hard and parents do their best" apologetics in the comments, this comic portrays long term, systematic child abuse and survivors recognize it immediately. If a parent's "best" involves abuse of any kind, it simply isn't good enough, and no victim owes their abuser a single thing.
For any fellow survivors, I see you and it's not your fault. They made choices when they raised you in a climate of terror, abuse, blame, and cruelty, you had no choice. Leave them to the natural consequences of their choices, your one wild life is your own, don't let them take any more of it than they already have.
He spent literally all my childhood "working" 16 hour shifts (not because he needed to) while neglecting his kids, and tries to solve all our problems with money instead of, you know, actually listening and supporting his kids emotionally, and now asks why none of us visit him.
While not all markdown tricks work everywhere in the Fediverse (making for some people seeing one thing and some another), a backslash before a character usually prevents it from misbehaving.
e.g. this is italic, *but this is not* because I put backslashes before the asterisks \*like so\*. And if you figure out how I did that last one, you've learned well.
We were not wealthy, but he worked for a government owned public company, which coupled with strong unions and worker's rights meant he earned a nice wage just working 8 hour shifts without so much overtime
"Without consent" would be a far more technically correct way to put it, and still convey most of the same emotional weight.
But worrying about the technicalities of communication instead of the intended message is all sizzle and no steak. Communication is about communicating; and the listening part is too.
Same goes for consent. You have no ability to do anything before you exist, because there is no you, unless you believe in having a soul or attachment outside of our plane of existence.
But yes, at the root of it all: You may not have chosen to be here (or maybe you did and you just don't remember and don't like your experience now), but perhaps you can make the most of your short time present.
Welcome to Earth and try to enjoy the ride. Nothing seems to be permanent.
Consent is an action. You can do nothing while you don't exist. (Usually not doing things is all you do while not existing.) You must be alive (or have been alive) to consent (or have consented).
"Against my will" requires you to have preferences to be ignored. This can't happen before you have preferences.
Go into the world, learn a trade and make a man out of yourself. There's no rule that says a steel worker, a deep sea welder or an HVAC repairman can't be six. /s
Hell, get a gym membership, work on your body and get on the dating apps. Be serious and straightforward with the women you meet. Show them the kindness and empathy your toxic parents didn't show you. Maybe you'll meet the right woman and together you can build a future. There's no rule that says a six year old can't start a family
Then you also haven't read this and just have to survive it.
I know that kids see those things as "normal", even the worst kinds of abuse. As they usually lack diversified knowledge of alternatives or came to conclusion how they want to be treated.
For those my advice is worth less than nothing. It was more aimed at people who can read and COULD do that. I know many can't or don't dare to. Or not without help.
It's part of what I voluntarily work in. A shelter-kind of people damaged or broken by other disgusting examples of this species.
It's the best one could do. Cut ties, start new. Or just cut ties.
Even if its parents. Or especially if they are the toxic ones. If you're 6, others should take you out of there.
Likely Valentine's Day conception here, and this rang a bell but for a different reason… When I was in my early 20s I was convinced all I needed to do to make it in the world was focusing on my music, which obviously involved copious drinking. At one point my mom lamented that I was going to turn out like my estranged biological father, because that was pretty much his MO. My response: "I mean… That's what you get for fuckin' an Irish guy?" Hopefully someone gets a laugh out of it, because she sure didn't.
It's totally unreasonable to assume conservatism is the exclusive domain of selfish and short-sighted people. A person who votes the same way as you can still be a mess personally.
There are a lot of liberals who are only liberal because they find a sense of moral superiority from it. It lets them speak rudely to anyone they disagree with, because those are "bad people" so it's not actually bad to be unkind to them.
That kind of self justification of cruelty is a lot of the attraction of most extremist movements, whether it be political, religious, or social. So many people want to be cruel but can't bear to see themselves as a bad person, so we give ourselves excuses.
I have yet to find a team without resentful morons on it. It may just be part of the human condition.
It's easier to see the faults in those we already disagree with, and forgive those who are "on our side". What's an "unforgivable violation" is a "tragic forgivable character flaw" in someone you already support; "after all they are doing so much good". You can see some really extreme versions of this line of thought recently.
No. My mother absolutely identifies as ANTIFA. Doesn't mean that the cyclical familial abuse passed her or me by. I don't treat kids this way, but I also had to do a lot to deprogram myself because of how I grew up. My mother still won't go to therapy.
"Children in Africa are dying" is largely the product of the scam charities that would try to profit off endless advertisement reels of impoverishment abroad. Once Americans got so jaded, racist, and broke that sad African children wasn't a cash cow anymore, we moved on to bombarding you with ads for dick pills, inflatable mattresses, and sports gambling.
Both of my grandfathers were horrible, and then largely absent. When each of them died, I managed a shrug and a mild bit of interest in learning more about them from their obituaries than they had ever shared with me over my entire life. My parents both show signs of generational trauma. They did their best with me, and I give them each passing grades, somewhat elevated by the fact that they got divorced when I don't remember, rather than sticking it out in a malfunctional marriage and no doubt allowing me to get caught in the crossfire. Even for all of that, I recognize in myself some of the echoes of what was done to them. I've done therapy and I've resolved to make sure my kid knows that, even if we sometimes argue or have to tell her things she doesn't want to hear, that no matter what we'll always love and cherish her.
Try to live your life in such a way that, when you die, the people you leave behind can manage more of an emotional reaction than a shrug and moving on with their day.
The article just before that about the "missing missing reasons" hits just as hard. That whole site makes for an informative read for someone frustrated with dealing with their parents as an adult.
I called them on that. My parents having the realization slowly but finally dawn on them that this meant they now had to wash their own dishes, mow their own lawn, pick up their own mess, and fix all their own shit was glorious to behold.
Junior's not here to bail you out anymore. And yet, I "sat around all day" doing "nothing," huh?
I'm old now, and taking care of my elderly mom, and she hollers this at me about once a week, just like when I was a teen, which is why I left right out of college. These days, I tell her she wouldn't last a week without me.
In the last two weeks, she's called twice, because she went to the grocery store when I was working, and couldn't figure out how to put the car in reverse to come home. She kept trying to shift the windshield wipers on the steering column. When I told her to use the shifter on the console, she didn't know what it was until I told her it was next to the cupholder. She's been driving the same vehicle for 6 years.
It looks like she may have to stop driving on her own, and she'll tell me to leave again. I could go, I already pay for an expensive apartment in NYC for my family, I don't HAVE to live with my mom, but who else is going to take care of her, my rich brother? Not a chance. She's 88 years old, and nobody else will even acknowledge that she needs help, because then, y'know, you'd have to help. Better to pretend there's no issue, then you can ignore it.
I'm not ignoring it. She may be a narcissist who has resented me my whole life (I was a 9.5 pound baby, born 7 months after they were married, get it?), but she's my mom, and I feel obligated to help her in her old age. Someone has to, and I can't just leave her alone. Something terrible will happen within a month. I worry horribly on the rare occasions that I visit my own family.
I’m not ignoring it. She may be a narcissist who has resented me my whole life (I was a 9.5 pound baby, born 7 months after they were married, get it?), but she’s my mom,
You owe her nothing. That's all I'll say about it.
As a kid: "Why is my mom so stressed and frustrated so often? Why can't she just be carefree and fun, like me? Why won't she just let me do whatever I want all the time?"
As an adult, with kids: "Oh, wait. Some of this stuff was pretty reasonable and being a good parent is hard work."
"you owe me for giving birth to you and putting a roof over your head" is pretty far out, if you're raised like this I can assure you it would suit these parents a lot better to skip having kids.
You owe it to the kid you decided to have to care for it as best you can, Not the other way around.
Like, yea, feeling frustrated and stressed is valid but it is in how we express it to those around us, especially to children, that can negatively affect them.
Our feelings are valid but it is also our responsibility to cope with things in a healthy way in order to not just pass that stress and frustration along to others around us. If people can't do that, then they shouldn't be having children.
We always try to frame it as "No we can't do all the fun stuff all the time because things cost money" instead of "I want to be riding a dirt bike on the Pacific coast, you little shit."
“you owe me for giving birth to you and putting a roof over your head” is pretty far out
Lots of parents throw this out half-joking. "I was in labor for eight hours, the least you can do is spend ten minutes cleaning your room" or some variation of it is a thing my mom would toss off on occasion.
You owe it to the kid you decided to have to care for it as best you can
We owe it to one another to be good in turn. The value of family is in building up the cycle of mutual aid. It's never a one-way street.
>I throw someone who doesn't know how to swim into a pool.
>I save this person's life, getting him safely out of the pool.
>This person must now risk his life and save me in return.
There's a big gulf between conveying the challenges of being a parent to your kid and just nagging them over bullshit.
Part of transitioning to adulthood is recognizing the struggles your parents experience, both in raising you and in taking care of themselves independent of their own parents. Then you strive for independence - at least in part - because you recognize you can't lean on your parents forever. And, finally, you might even decide to take care of children, because you want to pay the debt of childcare forward into the next generation.
We owe it to one another to be good in turn. The value of family is in building up the cycle of mutual aid. It's never a one-way street.
Why? You (not YOU but a parent) decided to procreate. Everything that follows is yours alone to deal with. I (the kid) never was asked to exist. Why do I owe you anything at all?
Still wouldn't change that YOU alone forced life into existence. If it needs therapy, you're at the absolute lowest root of a causal-chain.
Noone questions if you're fully alone responsible for a pet you got. Even if it still bites you and won't show "thankfulness". But kids is just a thing that happens and it's nobody's fault or responsibility?
Why do you think it owes you gratitude? For the gift of life?
We're all born into our various countries each of which places demands on us. And often that's under threat of imprisonment or even death and with little of value in return. Yet people are patriotic and support that system. Even if some of us might say it is better that countries couldn't do that, the fact that it's widely supported means that there's some basis for it that humanity recognizes.
Then compare that to a parent who selflessly loves and gives and gives. It's very reasonable to say that parents are owed something.
Then compare that to a parent who selflessly loves and gives and gives. It’s very reasonable to say that parents are owed something.
That's the thing. They're not. You surely CAN be grateful and thankful and whatnot. Of course. But you don't owe it to them. Were you asked if you want to exist? Were you asked if you want to be part of this society?
The rest you said isn't wrong. I just fail to see the direct correlation between "i force you into this world without asking consent" and "because of that you owe me something".
If I take you hostage and treat you super-well and lovely, do you owe me something?
Just because a baby can't consent before being born, doesn't automatically mean it has to be thankful for it. Doesn't mean you mustn't or couldn't or even shouldn't. But you don't HAVE TO.
Yes. That gives them the conscious option, not the obligation.
Any expectant mother who miscarries can tell you why you're wrong.
I spoke with many so far and wouldn't know what that would have to do with anything?
Despite the tragedy of misscariage, it was still a one-way-decision to procreate. The result of it doesn't touch the point. The resulting kid had no choice to exist or not to exist. It was first thrown into existence and then out of it again. It didn't ask for either.
I don't say kids shouldn't be thankful or be in owing. They're just no obliged to do so.
You can't set a kid in this world, expecting it to pay you back somehow. It might, it probably will. It might also hate you for it. But it doesn't HAVE to do any of it.
Joking or not the sentiment is still damaging to a child's mental state. You don't get to pick what sentiments a child will internalize. The rhetoric is conditioning them to feel like love and respect are transactional things. It's teaching them that guilt tripping people to coerce their behavior is okay by treating it as casual. It's toxic. "It's just a joke" is a bullshit excuse. Always has been.
The mutual aid argument doesn't work when one party is dependent upon the other for their upbringing and care. Mutual aid requires both parties to be functionally independent and a child does not have that level of autonomy being dependent upon the parent to raise them so they can become independent. A child is not responsible for the well being of the parent. It is the responsibility of the parents to put their problems aside for the well being of their children.
Edit: here's a thing people from functional families do not understand:
We did not have your experience. We are not whining because of misconceptions. Our childhoods were monstrous. Our family units objectively broken. There is no familial bond, only trauma ones.
You cannot understand because you have no frame of reference to this level of dysfunction. And so you try and apply your framework instead, and skew the corners to fit.
I guarantee you my parents said all of this in all seriousness. It took decades of therapy to undo the damage of my childhood and I still have issues to work through.
I’m sure there are some that joke around and that’s fine. I’m not trying to claim your mother was abusive when she said it. But I wouldn’t use that as an excuse to minimize a lot of others pain.
Cool story. Quick question: you ever honestly and angrily called your kid a little cunt to their face? Ever hit them so hard with something that the item in question broke? Or my personal favourite anecdote, woken your kid up by hurling a kilogram of solid frozen lamb chops at their head screaming about freezer burn?
Don't excuse shitty parents who take their unhappiness out on helpless children.
You tried to equate parental frustration and childish obliviousness with familial abuse. As you should be aware, my comments were to highlight the difference between "gee, mums get frustrated sometimes" and what the actual topic of this thread is.
And you don't have to beat a kid to be a shitty parent, jsyk.
So why make a comment about "gee i never got why mum was stressed as a kid then i grew up and realised adult things" on a post explicitly about abusive parents?
Ever hit them so hard with something that the item in question broke?
Tbf, that bit is somewhat dependent on context. I agree, >90% of parents that do that are just shit. My personal experience was different - my dad though ahead and had a specific setup for paddling. Multiple warnings ahead of time, and used narrow-handled wooden spoons, so they'd break so he couldn't put too much force into it
I mean, having specific implements you choose to hit your kid with. Consider that. Also consider the fact I literally wrote a paragraph detailing clear abuse...and your brain tried to excuse it. I'm not calling you an apologist, just..think about how your brain did that.
And yes, I'm aware of "how it was back then" I'm genX. It's still messed up.
If you conflate "I gave birth to you and fed you, you owe me" with "parenting is hard work", please drop your kids off at the nearest shelter as you are unfit to be a parent.
I'm so grateful that my mother wasn't a piece of shit. I mean, she has her faults. She voted for the shitbird three times, thus ending our relationship (I won't speak to her because of it), but she really tried. She wasn't abusive. She sucked and piled on baggage from her own bs, but it wasn't really her fault; she just had shortcomings.
Meanwhile, I watch bodycam videos on youtube and feel horrible for some children. Thanks, Mom!
Based on deliberate overreaction to hyperbole in an anti-sexist comic strip sexists dug up over a year after it was published in order to have something to complain about.
There's a worrying increase that I'm seeing from the women that I come across that harbor this mentality where they think everybody owes them everything for simply existing. These are the same type of women who think that their parents are selfish and failures for not giving everything their child everything they ask for or that their children owe them everything and should live to serve them because they brought them into the world and raised them or that any man they go out with should worship them and do everything for them while they do nothing in return because they think they're the grand prize for any man.
I feel like this mentality was a lot more rare and fringe a decade ago. For whatever reason its becoming more and more popular. It's still a minority, but definitely more prominant.
A lot of women are raised that they are Princesses, and they should insist on being treated as such.
Then they grow up and find out that while you might be the center of your own universe, you aren't the center of anyone else's, and nobody wants to indulge or tolerate your Princess Complex.
I do wanna just chime in that this particular comic shows a mom but plenty of dads are like this, too, so I hope you don't take this comic as some evidence of "women nowadays = bad".
Frankly, I don't trust people who trot out their "AI-dar" without explaining. It feels like an cheap excuse to take a shot at creative works or people they don't like.
AI-dar folks would have said that Calvin & Hobbes, The Far Side Gallery, or Peanuts to be AI slop, if they were invented today.
I hate the world we live in now where the safest response to everything is "is this AI?". Better to be proven wrong rather than fooled again by fucking chatGPT.
It is kind of the blobby AI cartoon art style, but the characters are frame-appropriate in all their details, something AI usually fucks up somewhere along the line.
Are we going to eventually approach a day where AI is the only thing capable of writing or drawing, and humans can only pass around AI slop instead of proper memes?
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There is no taking. By having a child you automatically give to him a lifetime of support. That's your role as a parent. Children are not your slaves. If you don't want to accept that, don't have children.
My opinion also, but in a slightly darker radical tone that I never share otherwise: bringing someone into this world of suffering is a misguided act of unconscious selfishness and whoever does so owes all available effort to reduce that suffering. In practice, no one is able to acquit themselves of this debt, which is why I hope I never have kids...
That's a very nihilistic view that implies existence is not worth anything. Personally, I believe that existing is actually beautiful and worth experiencing, even if it sucks sometimes and has inherit suffering. Otherwise we might as well all lie down, stop eating or drinking, and wait for death. Kids don't see the world as suffering and pain — they enjoy every moment with unjaded, curious eyes.
Well, you know, ideally
I believe you would be able to manage it
I'd like to think so, but idk. I mean I'm not an anti-natalist myself, but I also hated my time as a kid so I get where they're coming from.
Until it's bedtime or time to wake up for school.
Nah, this is fake news. I hated being a kid and was passively suicidal. Once I was an adult, I got to trans My gender and be happy.
In this context, where we're talking about having children, would you do it better? You wouldn't let your kids suffer the same way you did, right? That's called generational healing.
Yeah, I adopted a couple of younger trans people with bad parents. I'm helping then develop life skills and build resilience and look the way they want to look.
Existence is worth it if you already exist, if you don't, you won't miss it.
@Zarobi not kids with cancer.
Even people with cancer deserve to exist
@Zarobi sure, because they are already here. If you could prevent that, wouldnt you? Seems cruel to allow that. Similarly if i had a debilitating hereditary condition why the hell would I pass it on?
The thing is, you can't predetermine if they'll have cancer or some other rare conditions before existing. There's very good screening tests nowadays to help prevent that as well. To me, it seems like a strange morality for that to be your reason to avoid having children. It's anticipatory grief, like not making friends because they might die. By the same logic, what if your child is the one that discovers the cure to cancer? In that case, it's cruel not to have them, but you can't know, so it's a moot point. Unless you do know, in which case send me a DM, I'm in need of a mystic.
Hereditary conditions are a whole different conversation.
@Zarobi the whole "my kid will be the smartestest and cure cancer" argument is why we are in the state we are in. That phrase is also often used by religious nutjobs.
The difference between "I shouldn't make friends cuz they'll just die" is easy: we are already here , against our will, so let's make the best of it.
I counter with: your child could be Hitler 3.0, See how that point is just plain dumb? Every human thinks their special child will be the smartest and best next president.
If you truly believe what you say, don’t just hope you don’t have kids. Either get fixed or don’t have sex.
And I already put my money where my mouth is, I got fixed to ensure I will never get pregnant.
Edit: Sorry if I come off rude in a comment like this. As the daughter of a man who didn’t want his kids and blamed my mom for getting pregnant, I get really frustrated when I see guys “hope” they don’t have kids or when guys whine about taking care of the kids they didn’t want. Don’t want kids? Get fixed or don’t have sex.
The dude I replied to understood that and started the process. It’s sexy when guys take control of their fertility like that. More men should be like this guy.
You're totally right. I really should, and I will.
EDIT: I actually started scheduling a vasectomy right now. I had wanted to do one before but things were a little more complicated then and it had slipped my mind in the meantime / did not seem as relevant. Now is a perfect time however.
Thank you for getting me moving again.
Honestly dude, good for you! And I promise I’m not being facetious here. I’m super happy you got motivated to get a vasectomy. I had my fallopian tubes removed a few years ago and it was a massive weight lifted off my shoulders to know I will never again be pregnant.
I’m really fucking proud of you for taking that step!
I have no idea where you get the idea that having kids is selfish. I spend so much of my time, attention, money and love on them. We share their pain, success and all their ups and downs. My wife gave up her career as an architect to spend more time with them.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human. And this might be news for you, but this world was always a rough place to be if you’re not born rich.
And if you’re hinting that your kid's CO2 footprint and consumption potentially contribute to climate change, you’re also forfeiting their chance to contribute to positive changes.
I think it’s more that the act itself, of having the child, is a choice that is made without the consent of the life being brought into the world. Every child is forced into existence through decisions that are not their own.
Of course, it’s impossible to get consent from the violated party, but it’s still a decision parents take for their own reasons, not the child’s reasons.
The kid didn't need to exist, you made them do so because you wanted something from them for you or those around you, things like love, something to care about, a helping hand etc. That is selfish by definition.
That is selfish AND human. Although something being human isn't very relevant, considering things like greed or ill will are also human.
Wanting future generations to fix climate change is also pretty selfish, so it's a bad example. They're also likely to be powerless just like us.
Of course, not having kids in order to not make them suffer is also selfish, but It causes the least ammount of pain, well, except for the part where you will have to take care of yourself when older, but thats our problem.
There are indeed misanthropes, but they're also a very small minority.
You're the meme. Did they asked to be there? Yes you're "giving" them a lot of your energy, but they are owed that. That's not generosity, that's responsibility.
Having kids is inherently selfish. Prove me wrong! Name a single reason to have them that doesn't involve you.
By that logic taking care of a pet or senile relatives is also selfish. Or working as a missionary, or emergency worker. It boils down to the question if being selfless is in itself a selfish decision.
Were we just stupid? Naive? Following our biological program? I don’t know. But I know that I love my children above all else and would throw myself under a bus to save them.
I guess it can be hard to imagine loving someone without expecting anything in return, if you haven’t received that kind of love yourself.
The big difference here is that these individual already exist. You're not creating a life for your own amusement.
Amusement? Give me a effing break! Quick, call up your parents and ask them how amused they were wiping your ass and cleaning after you! How funny it was taking care of you when you were sick and keeping them up at night. And then tell them how selfish it was of them.
Just as well you don’t want kids, seriously.
I got one child, bringing her into this world was definitely a selfish act, we talked about it, weighted the state of the world and everything going on, we came slightly positive, since then the moron in charge if the usa has murdered so much more people, statistically and absolutely, made the world worse for everyone, my own government are the most stupist selfish people i can imagine and yet we wanted someone to give knowledge and things, and yet i fear that she will hate me for being in this world once she realise how fucked up everything is. Creating her was selfish, no doubt
You've yet to name a single non-selfish reason. I can see this makes you emotive. You should reflect on that before you reproduce.
The more selfish you are, the harder it is to be a good parent.
That being said, not everyone should have children, and: "I was a perfect parent too before I had kids."
There are plenty of reasons that aren't selfish. You can do it for humanity, for justice, for style points, for Narnia... If you want to logick those into being selfish, that's your own moral framework talking. Every action is a subjective choice from a subjective perspective in the end, but people can still have non-selfish intentions, however misguided you may judge them.
Well said.
I think you're missing the point. Having a child for Narnia is not selfish, it is literally for the good of Narnia to have another strong Narnian. But you're operating under a moral framework where even the good of Narnia is ultimately good for the Narnian, therefore it is selfish to want Narnia to be strong.
Do you have to agree with the idea of a strong Narnia? Of course not. But it's a very narrow way of thinking to explain every human motivation through selfishness.
Ura Narnia!
To give someone a chance to experience the pleasure of living.
To contribute to the world an additional person of quality and integrity.
You probably just haven't been asking very thoughtful or articulate people.
@thepig in my experience these folks think everyone is either rich or has zero disabilities of any kind when thats actually about .00000001% of humans. Or theyre really young and have no idea how much life sucks (but make the best of it anyway if youre here)
Yall got some dismal life experiences; what a dour outlook on life.
@BlueOysterCultist I mean, mine wasnt great (childhood abuse) but I make the most of it myself. Theres definitely fun to be had. I just see zero reason to drag an unconsenting person into the world. Like, why? If people were actually not selfish, they'd adopt. I am selfish and I enjoy my alone time, so I will probably end up doing neither.
@thepig agree. I'd say in general, my life has maybe been 15-20% enjoyment, the rest was either meh or outright sucked. The enjoyment portion gets smaller as one gets older, especially if you aren't raking in cash by the time youre 40, you won't have a fun time.
Might not be selfless as such, and I'm not in any position to speak for women in general, but when that biological drive kicks in, it can do so pretty damn hard.
That's still satisfying your own need, but perhaps more subconsciously so than people having children without thought or care.
Me and my wife agreed on not having children when we were young, but we've never regretted the son we got after a pretty radical twist in our mid 20's. I could go on, but it's complicated.
In today's world, if I were young again, I'd never even give it serious thought, though. Different times, although it doesn't feel that long ago.
In all honesty, lots of people have children not even because they especially want to, but because they feel obligated to by their role in society. That's not a reason many people are likely to give, but it's not a selfish reason.
@thepig oh man, sooooo many people fit this mold. "Because I have to. Because its what you do". No. Its not. You dont have to do ANYTHING.
@thepig everyone wants people to have kids, no one wants to pay or take the time for them. If you dont have immediate family nearby, have fun with $2k/month daycare bills on $9/hr minimum wage! Its a joke.
Meeting your obligations is the most unselfish thing you can possibly do. Doing things out of obligation to others is the fundamental unit of unselfishness.
Are all selfish actions bad?
Perhaps they do it because they care. How would you know what rationale everyone has?
Couldn't they care about something before it comes into existence?
I don't understand how you arrive at this outcome that you cannot care about something that doesn't exist. Lower stakes example: gamers cared about GTA 6 before it came out. People care about future entries into game series that haven't even been thought up yet.
People care about the concept of things that don't exist enough to make them want to exist.
If you believe in souls, and believe they exist before birth, then I'm curious about why you think it would be selfish to bring souls to experience the mortal plane of existence. Would it not be a function of a soul to be brought here?
According to this thought experiment, their soul exists but they don't? They meaning their physical body? I guess that makes sense.
But still: people can care about things that don't exist yet.
Just in case it isn't clear: none of the above is said with any animosity, and I'm not talking down to you.
My wife and I have a family to give you a justification to not have children. So, I'm glad I could make you feel better about your choice. That was pretty selfless of us I think.
@NoSpotOfGround yeah simply put youre totally right. Sure, there's good in this world (if youre rich) but lets face it, life is mostly bad and we would all rather be having an eternal slumber instead. We are just here making the most of it because we have to. Say this in public IRL and youll be utterly crucified though. To me its just logic. If you have a kid either by accident or choice, I dont care. But dont make me feel like its required.
But an overwhelming desire to protect your children from suffering will ultimately just lead to them suffering more.
Anyway, the word for that feeling you have is "anti-natalism"--that it is unethical to bring children into the world because non-existence is preferable to likely misery.
that just sounds like anti-natalism and those people kinda weird me out
I think it's exactly that, although that's a name I've only learned of recently... Sorry about the weirding out. I can understand how it sounds when it's not a conclusion you've reached on your own already.
Existing is more pleasurable than not existing, and you can always choose to stop existing if you want. On balance, it is better to be born than not to be.
Having your own kids is literally the most selfish thing you can do. You want to spread your genes.
Now before you dogpile, understand this doesn't imply its morally wrong, or bad, or anything of they sort. But it is selfish.
Not all parents are like what you think.
When they say "You owe me for ______", ask them: "How much?"
See if you can get them to put a dollar amount on it.
Not that anything particularly useful will come of such a conversation, but it will be kind of funny. Possibly it might even cause them to think a little bit. Maybe you can wrap up the conversation by telling them, "Well, I'm not paying it. You can try to sue me for it."
Yes, from personal experience. They can even keep track of it for years.
According to my mom I owe her a benz
Here, mom, I got you a Benz!
It's even the same model year as the year I was born!
Enjoy it, we're totally even now!
No take. Only give.
i see you've not met people.
Her
Who?
Them!
It?
Yes
Over there, in that Police Box
Child
You can't play football, it's too dangerous!
You can't take a martial arts class, it's dangerous and too expensive!
You can't get a drum kit, it's too loud and too expensive!
You can't have guitar lessons, it's too expensive and too loud!
Never leave this neighborhood it's too dangerous!
15 years later
Why do you sit inside all day!?! Get a hobby!
Boomers and Gen X were heavily conditioned by the wave of crimes and news of serial killers. So it's understandable why they have been overprotective.
seriously my mom would tell us about all the rapes happening on the daily. wasn't till I could comprehend basic statistics did I realize how many screws she had loose.
Okay, but totally unironically, though. Full contact sports are terrible for kids.
I might suggest that the biggest reason I sit inside all day is that it's fucking 95° with 60% humidity. But also, screens are hypnotizing, especially for little kids. My son would absolutely lock in on Ms Racheal or Bluey for hours a day if I let him. But he also loves to kick his soccer ball and dunk his basketball in his little stand when the TV isn't on. And I'm fine with that, because he's not plowing face first into a kid twice his size. Or trying to back kick one of his friends across the room.
Also, I've never needed to buy my son a drum kit because everything is a drum kit to that kid. We can talk about a kit when he gets to middle school and shows he's got the desire to practice, maintain the equipment, and not break anything when he loses his temper.
While full contact sports (and the associated CTE) are dangerous, there's alternative combat sports that avoid it, like wrestling, judo, and jiu jitsu. Mainly grappling.
That being said, competitive olympic wresting is pretty toxic regarding weight and diet. Lots of extreme dieting to get in the wanted weight range for tournaments, which is terrible for teenagers. Plus, jiu jitsu is the dude-bro sport right now, so might want to avoid that too.
Mainly what I'm getting at is that judo is good if you think your kid might be into it
There's definitely alternatives to full-contact football that are lower-impact, especially wrt to the head. But I've got a friend who runs a jiu-jitsu gym and he's constantly got wraps on something. Fingers are really common. Knees are bad, too. He nearly dislocated his shoulder after a bad throw. One of his friends managed to brain herself in the middle of a throw when she bounced her head off her partner's hipbone and had to be treated for a concussion.
My sister and I did taekwondo as kids. Other than the occasional sparing (lots of pads, relatively light contact), it was all about flexibility and learning the forms. You still get injured overextending or balancing wrong. But it's comparatively far better for kids than actual combat sports.
Like, if you're old enough to make your own decisions, more power to you. But if you're coming off Ninja Turtles as a 12-year-old, hell no. The combat sports are a recipe for getting wrecked.
Of the three, it's probably the best. I would still stick my kid in a karate-themed exercise class, if it came to that.
These can also get hella expensive, depending on who you're training with and where. I can definitely understand a parent not being able to afford private lessons, much less the time to commute with practice. And the kid - not understanding the economic reality - deciding their parent is just being mean, or overprotective, or small-minded.
Full contact sports should be adapted to children to have no full contact. If it's not the case, the teachers are morons, dangerous and probably criminals, and you should obviously not leave your kids there.
In fact, regarding full contact combat sports, even for adults training does not involve full contact to the head in most cases, only competitions and examinations may. There's a lot of choice of schools and rulesets, so adults can choose whatever level of contact they are comfortable with.
Oh no! My child might get hurt playing a game! Little Jhonnythan is far too valuable to be put in harms way no matter how much he'll develop emotionally and intelligently by playing . I'm an amazing parent!
Football specifically is bad. Especially with helmets.
How is that more specifically bad vs any other sport with contact built into it, like baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, lacrosse, rugby... Even more individual sports have incidents like curling and tennis.
Maybe your soft child might be good at golf? But they could strain leg muscles, pull a hip, should injuries are common among golfers...
It's not a game when the goal is to injure the other players. It's functionally a combat sport.
I've played sports my whole life. Never has there ever been a sport where the goal is to "injure the other player".
Your ignorance is showing. I've accidentally hurt others, and others have unintentionally hurt me. Shit happens. I've torn a muscle in my shoulder from a bad hit in hockey. I've also severely sprained my ankle walking to my driveway. If you want to bubble wrap your kids and protect them from all the harm in the world, enjoy raising a completely incompetent leech on society that is dependant on you their whole life.
Boxing. MMA. In both of those,
concussingknocking out your opponent is a winThose aren't team sports.
American reading comprehension is really at a historic low isn't it.
At no point in your previous comment did you say the word "team".
You really put your foot in your mouth with that one.
Not sure if genuinely ignorant or just contrarian maxxing
I could ask the same thing.
Which team sport is designed around intentionally injuring the other players?
She never got over him stealing Blobby
That is a really cool stuffy
My parents gave as much as they could. I never thought it was enough when I was a kid. Now that I'm in my forties, I know just how much that was.
I come from work tired as fuck and I know my old man was the same way, but he still found time to take me to the playground and then taught me math and English every night. My mom did the exact same but there was always a lunch and a dinner cooked for my ungrateful ass.
Through it all, they always loved me and said they were proud of me.
Its good to know that there are still some doing it right (my sister and bil are the same. I'm a cool aunt, thank you very much)
Well I hate you with a bitter jealousy and so very many of the empty places in my heart. Whoever you are.
"From hell's heart, I stab at thee. For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee..."
The entire rest of that section goes so much harder and is so much gayer.
genesis intensifies
Okay so my search wasn't working, but here's the full portion:
There's a lot of archaic language and nautical terminology there, but its much more about grief and abandon and madness, it shows a weakness, a frenzied hopeless death drive as much or more than the determination and strength implied by the shorter quote the space-nazi shouts.
That's my monster boomer mother. Also include "while you live under MY roof... blah-blah". I spent my early childhood not feeling like I had a home. I was just visiting her house. Nothing was mine. She of course forgets my father paid for that house and she got it for free in the divorce.
She'd also say to me "the world doesn't owe you a living." She only had a high school degree and a year as a "kelly girl". That turned into a secretary job at a community college, which later turned into a better secretary job at a huge aerospace company. After a few years that paid more than enough to live and she got stocks and a pension out of the deal. Her aunt died and left her a fortune (none for me). She's one of those boomers that did the bare minimum in life, sits on a pile of free cash, free house, retired early, and complains about people on welfare or "damn government handouts". Meanwhile she has never contributed anything of value to society, never volunteers, never donates to charity. She's a fucking leach.
Oh yeah. When parents got divorced, she got primary custody of me. She was so insane, I ended up moving to my fathers house when I was 10. My father continued to pay her child support to stop her from filing a complaint with the court about me living with him (He was chill and figured it was the easy way to deal with her). So add that to the list of free money to her.
Anyway, now she's old, fat, stupid, with no friends and will die alone. I actually expect her to die in the house alone and they'll find her weeks later after her cat has chewed out chunks of her. LOL. Good kitty.
This makes me feel bad for the cat.
That’s cheery.
Let’s hope you raise your own children the way you wish you had been raised.
That's what I'm doing. The pain of my childhood will not be passed on as more generational trauma.
I had a similar childhood, and had minimal contact in the last 10-15 years of her life. My mom ended up homeless and would have died on the street if her brother wasn't willing to take her in. It was my fault she ended up homeless, because I moved out and stopped being the parent in the relationship.
I never want my child to feel about me the way my mother made me feel about her, and I'm doing the hard work to make myself a better person and parent than what I was taught to be.
It sucks because it's like sitting there holding up a leaning pile of bricks, and you know as soon as you move it's falling, but you only have 1 life and you deserve to spend it doing more than fixing other people's mistakes.
How old were you when you moved out?
When ya comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then.
You know we'll have a good time then. 🥲
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon...
It hits so hard, as I'm a dad now, with two sons. Gotta be there for them like my dad was for me in his own way.
It's not like I asked to be born, jeez. That's like deciding to get a dog and then be surprised that it actually takes work to care of it.
That guy is NOT a teenager
It was in 1950
Should have cleared out of the line for someone who did.
bring it up with god or the universe, you'll only get crickets here.
For anyone confused and making "parenting is hard and parents do their best" apologetics in the comments, this comic portrays long term, systematic child abuse and survivors recognize it immediately. If a parent's "best" involves abuse of any kind, it simply isn't good enough, and no victim owes their abuser a single thing.
For any fellow survivors, I see you and it's not your fault. They made choices when they raised you in a climate of terror, abuse, blame, and cruelty, you had no choice. Leave them to the natural consequences of their choices, your one wild life is your own, don't let them take any more of it than they already have.
Not my mother, but my father.
He spent literally all my childhood "working" 16 hour shifts (not because he needed to) while neglecting his kids, and tries to solve all our problems with money instead of, you know, actually listening and supporting his kids emotionally, and now asks why none of us visit him.
/rant
Raising emotionally retarded men
+
obligating men to be fathers
+
making bread winning the father's only familial responsibility
=
our dads
Edit:
Lemmy nerds: what exactly do I need to escape to prevent getting a massive heading font on the above?
Try a backslash.
While not all markdown tricks work everywhere in the Fediverse (making for some people seeing one thing and some another), a backslash before a character usually prevents it from misbehaving.
e.g. this is italic, *but this is not* because I put backslashes before the asterisks \*like so\*. And if you figure out how I did that last one, you've learned well.
\*Merci beaucoup!*
That you, brother?
Could you explain why he might not have needed to work 16 hours? Were you wealthy?
We were not wealthy, but he worked for a government owned public company, which coupled with strong unions and worker's rights meant he earned a nice wage just working 8 hour shifts without so much overtime
I think the Raised By Narcissists group needs more activity. This was my childhood fer shurr.
I'm in this comic and I don't like it.
Imagine they bring you to this suffering planet against your will and then give you this bullshit. Wow just wow 🤩
Do any of us have a will to go against before we are made? If we have no will, can it be gone against?
"Without consent" would be a far more technically correct way to put it, and still convey most of the same emotional weight.
But worrying about the technicalities of communication instead of the intended message is all sizzle and no steak. Communication is about communicating; and the listening part is too.
How is it any more “correct?”
What is the meaningful distinction between “will” and “consent”, here?
Whether a child “wants” to be born or not is a meaningless question, no matter which word you choose.
"Against your will" means you refused.
Same goes for consent. You have no ability to do anything before you exist, because there is no you, unless you believe in having a soul or attachment outside of our plane of existence.
But yes, at the root of it all: You may not have chosen to be here (or maybe you did and you just don't remember and don't like your experience now), but perhaps you can make the most of your short time present.
Welcome to Earth and try to enjoy the ride. Nothing seems to be permanent.
Consent is an action. You can do nothing while you don't exist. (Usually not doing things is all you do while not existing.) You must be alive (or have been alive) to consent (or have consented).
"Against my will" requires you to have preferences to be ignored. This can't happen before you have preferences.
Cut toxic people out of your life. No matter who it is. Period.
Simple best rule for a happier life.
OK but what if you're 6 and the toxic people are your parents?
Go into the world, learn a trade and make a man out of yourself. There's no rule that says a steel worker, a deep sea welder or an HVAC repairman can't be six. /s
Don't let being six years old stop you from pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.
Hell, get a gym membership, work on your body and get on the dating apps. Be serious and straightforward with the women you meet. Show them the kindness and empathy your toxic parents didn't show you. Maybe you'll meet the right woman and together you can build a future. There's no rule that says a six year old can't start a family
When I was 6 I was already 7
Boo
Then you also haven't read this and just have to survive it. I know that kids see those things as "normal", even the worst kinds of abuse. As they usually lack diversified knowledge of alternatives or came to conclusion how they want to be treated.
For those my advice is worth less than nothing. It was more aimed at people who can read and COULD do that. I know many can't or don't dare to. Or not without help.
It's part of what I voluntarily work in. A shelter-kind of people damaged or broken by other disgusting examples of this species. It's the best one could do. Cut ties, start new. Or just cut ties.
Even if its parents. Or especially if they are the toxic ones. If you're 6, others should take you out of there.
Get over it! You can talk, you can walk, you can eat and shit. It's time to make a dime! /s
I once told my mother i didn't owe her shit for getting drunk and horny on NYE (i'm an early sept baby)
....hilarity did not ensue
Likely Valentine's Day conception here, and this rang a bell but for a different reason… When I was in my early 20s I was convinced all I needed to do to make it in the world was focusing on my music, which obviously involved copious drinking. At one point my mom lamented that I was going to turn out like my estranged biological father, because that was pretty much his MO. My response: "I mean… That's what you get for fuckin' an Irish guy?" Hopefully someone gets a laugh out of it, because she sure didn't.
Gotta love it when one parent slags off the other. I mean like.. they fucked them.
Is that a MAGA mom?
It reminds me of one I know. They just need the ”I brought you into this world, I can take you out" quote to make it complete.
No, just a bad mother. They can be either conservative or liberal. Don't ask me how I know.....
Lol, you think this is a team sports thing. It's a resentful human thing, which is mostly just a human thing
Yes, is totally unreasonable to think that a selfish and short sighted person would be conservative.
/s
It's totally unreasonable to assume conservatism is the exclusive domain of selfish and short-sighted people. A person who votes the same way as you can still be a mess personally.
NoT AlL cOnSeRvAtIvEs.
We're talking patterns, not laws.
There are a lot of liberals who are only liberal because they find a sense of moral superiority from it. It lets them speak rudely to anyone they disagree with, because those are "bad people" so it's not actually bad to be unkind to them.
That kind of self justification of cruelty is a lot of the attraction of most extremist movements, whether it be political, religious, or social. So many people want to be cruel but can't bear to see themselves as a bad person, so we give ourselves excuses.
If anything, I said NoT AlL lIbErAlS...?
And which team do the resentful morons
get tricked intopick?I’ll give you two guesses, and the first one doesn’t count
I have yet to find a team without resentful morons on it. It may just be part of the human condition.
It's easier to see the faults in those we already disagree with, and forgive those who are "on our side". What's an "unforgivable violation" is a "tragic forgivable character flaw" in someone you already support; "after all they are doing so much good". You can see some really extreme versions of this line of thought recently.
Nazis are killing kids in cages. Actively, like today. Not sure if that moves the needle for you at all.
It does for me.
I take this kind of stuff seriously, but I don't go all McCarthy on it.
No, that's just my mom. Not specifically MAGA fan, we're not from USA. She just fans local wish.com maga variation.
Which is probably even worse as they literally copy US MAGA talking points without even localizing those.
No. My mother absolutely identifies as ANTIFA. Doesn't mean that the cyclical familial abuse passed her or me by. I don't treat kids this way, but I also had to do a lot to deprogram myself because of how I grew up. My mother still won't go to therapy.
Unfortunately some people are like that.
Not some - a lot.
So many LGBTQIA folk have a story.
yep
"Children in Africa are dying, doesn't this make you more grateful?" -No...
"Children in Africa are dying" is largely the product of the scam charities that would try to profit off endless advertisement reels of impoverishment abroad. Once Americans got so jaded, racist, and broke that sad African children wasn't a cash cow anymore, we moved on to bombarding you with ads for dick pills, inflatable mattresses, and sports gambling.
"Children are starving in Africa, you should be grateful"
I'm cool with helping feed them. You wanna run this bowl of Mac and Cheese to Africa, or am I getting my bike?
Well,
Life expectancy in Africa got a lot better the past 3 decades.
Just angry at the world
This was legit part of my upbringing, a wtf head scratcher to this day.
"Do you want me to give you something to cry about?"
That's pretty much every narcissist's view of having kids. That you owe them something for just making you exist.
Exactly, parents owe the children they bring into this world a safe and happy childhood, the child owes the parent nothing....nothing.
Both of my grandfathers were horrible, and then largely absent. When each of them died, I managed a shrug and a mild bit of interest in learning more about them from their obituaries than they had ever shared with me over my entire life. My parents both show signs of generational trauma. They did their best with me, and I give them each passing grades, somewhat elevated by the fact that they got divorced when I don't remember, rather than sticking it out in a malfunctional marriage and no doubt allowing me to get caught in the crossfire. Even for all of that, I recognize in myself some of the echoes of what was done to them. I've done therapy and I've resolved to make sure my kid knows that, even if we sometimes argue or have to tell her things she doesn't want to hear, that no matter what we'll always love and cherish her.
Try to live your life in such a way that, when you die, the people you leave behind can manage more of an emotional reaction than a shrug and moving on with their day.
#RaisedByNarcissistsMany such cases
How did you interview my mother to make this comic?
This is a great article on this topic
https://issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/when-the-missing-reasons-arent-missing/
Happy cake day.
The article just before that about the "missing missing reasons" hits just as hard. That whole site makes for an informative read for someone frustrated with dealing with their parents as an adult.
Well this hits close to home.
I love my parents but my relationship with them is complicated. This hits hard
I'd add to this: "It's my house, my rules! If you don't like them then move the fuck out!!!"
That's what I did.
I called them on that. My parents having the realization slowly but finally dawn on them that this meant they now had to wash their own dishes, mow their own lawn, pick up their own mess, and fix all their own shit was glorious to behold.
Junior's not here to bail you out anymore. And yet, I "sat around all day" doing "nothing," huh?
I just wasn't born with enough middle fingers.
I'm old now, and taking care of my elderly mom, and she hollers this at me about once a week, just like when I was a teen, which is why I left right out of college. These days, I tell her she wouldn't last a week without me.
In the last two weeks, she's called twice, because she went to the grocery store when I was working, and couldn't figure out how to put the car in reverse to come home. She kept trying to shift the windshield wipers on the steering column. When I told her to use the shifter on the console, she didn't know what it was until I told her it was next to the cupholder. She's been driving the same vehicle for 6 years.
It looks like she may have to stop driving on her own, and she'll tell me to leave again. I could go, I already pay for an expensive apartment in NYC for my family, I don't HAVE to live with my mom, but who else is going to take care of her, my rich brother? Not a chance. She's 88 years old, and nobody else will even acknowledge that she needs help, because then, y'know, you'd have to help. Better to pretend there's no issue, then you can ignore it.
I'm not ignoring it. She may be a narcissist who has resented me my whole life (I was a 9.5 pound baby, born 7 months after they were married, get it?), but she's my mom, and I feel obligated to help her in her old age. Someone has to, and I can't just leave her alone. Something terrible will happen within a month. I worry horribly on the rare occasions that I visit my own family.
You owe her nothing. That's all I'll say about it.
That makes me so sad
As a kid: "Why is my mom so stressed and frustrated so often? Why can't she just be carefree and fun, like me? Why won't she just let me do whatever I want all the time?"
As an adult, with kids: "Oh, wait. Some of this stuff was pretty reasonable and being a good parent is hard work."
"you owe me for giving birth to you and putting a roof over your head" is pretty far out, if you're raised like this I can assure you it would suit these parents a lot better to skip having kids.
You owe it to the kid you decided to have to care for it as best you can, Not the other way around.
Exactly. Our frustrations are ours. Not theirs.
Like, yea, feeling frustrated and stressed is valid but it is in how we express it to those around us, especially to children, that can negatively affect them.
Our feelings are valid but it is also our responsibility to cope with things in a healthy way in order to not just pass that stress and frustration along to others around us. If people can't do that, then they shouldn't be having children.
We always try to frame it as "No we can't do all the fun stuff all the time because things cost money" instead of "I want to be riding a dirt bike on the Pacific coast, you little shit."
Lots of parents throw this out half-joking. "I was in labor for eight hours, the least you can do is spend ten minutes cleaning your room" or some variation of it is a thing my mom would toss off on occasion.
We owe it to one another to be good in turn. The value of family is in building up the cycle of mutual aid. It's never a one-way street.
>I throw someone who doesn't know how to swim into a pool.
>I save this person's life, getting him safely out of the pool.
>This person must now risk his life and save me in return.
Are you suggesting swim lessons are bad, because you don't start out knowing how to swim?
20 mins in the penalty box for fallacious arguments
FIFA tier reffing
Yeah how dare blind kids not learn braille and read a book jeez they're fed aren't they
I have known so many parents who believe that seriously, and want their kids to understand the sacrifice they are making for those brats.
There's a big gulf between conveying the challenges of being a parent to your kid and just nagging them over bullshit.
Part of transitioning to adulthood is recognizing the struggles your parents experience, both in raising you and in taking care of themselves independent of their own parents. Then you strive for independence - at least in part - because you recognize you can't lean on your parents forever. And, finally, you might even decide to take care of children, because you want to pay the debt of childcare forward into the next generation.
You're approaching this with the attitude of a parent who's already got their future grandkids named.
UnderpantsWeevil III
Why? You (not YOU but a parent) decided to procreate. Everything that follows is yours alone to deal with. I (the kid) never was asked to exist. Why do I owe you anything at all?
Because that's how society works, mutualism.
I'm not stupid, but...who asked your offspring if it wants to be part of that? You forced it into existence.
Asking consent of the future is ridiculous, and being mad about existing means you need therapy.
Still wouldn't change that YOU alone forced life into existence. If it needs therapy, you're at the absolute lowest root of a causal-chain.
Noone questions if you're fully alone responsible for a pet you got. Even if it still bites you and won't show "thankfulness". But kids is just a thing that happens and it's nobody's fault or responsibility?
Why do you think it owes you gratitude? For the gift of life?
We're all born into our various countries each of which places demands on us. And often that's under threat of imprisonment or even death and with little of value in return. Yet people are patriotic and support that system. Even if some of us might say it is better that countries couldn't do that, the fact that it's widely supported means that there's some basis for it that humanity recognizes.
Then compare that to a parent who selflessly loves and gives and gives. It's very reasonable to say that parents are owed something.
That's the thing. They're not. You surely CAN be grateful and thankful and whatnot. Of course. But you don't owe it to them. Were you asked if you want to exist? Were you asked if you want to be part of this society? The rest you said isn't wrong. I just fail to see the direct correlation between "i force you into this world without asking consent" and "because of that you owe me something". If I take you hostage and treat you super-well and lovely, do you owe me something? Just because a baby can't consent before being born, doesn't automatically mean it has to be thankful for it. Doesn't mean you mustn't or couldn't or even shouldn't. But you don't HAVE TO.
Because it's the foundation of a functioning civilization.
That's demonstrably not true.
Why should one's offspring care for that? It never ask to be in that civilization?
If this makes you feel better? Doesn't change the fact that procreating is a one-way-decision-street. Yours.
Because they're human
Any expectant mother who miscarries can tell you why you're wrong.
Yes. That gives them the conscious option, not the obligation.
I spoke with many so far and wouldn't know what that would have to do with anything? Despite the tragedy of misscariage, it was still a one-way-decision to procreate. The result of it doesn't touch the point. The resulting kid had no choice to exist or not to exist. It was first thrown into existence and then out of it again. It didn't ask for either.
I don't say kids shouldn't be thankful or be in owing. They're just no obliged to do so. You can't set a kid in this world, expecting it to pay you back somehow. It might, it probably will. It might also hate you for it. But it doesn't HAVE to do any of it.
Joking or not the sentiment is still damaging to a child's mental state. You don't get to pick what sentiments a child will internalize. The rhetoric is conditioning them to feel like love and respect are transactional things. It's teaching them that guilt tripping people to coerce their behavior is okay by treating it as casual. It's toxic. "It's just a joke" is a bullshit excuse. Always has been.
The mutual aid argument doesn't work when one party is dependent upon the other for their upbringing and care. Mutual aid requires both parties to be functionally independent and a child does not have that level of autonomy being dependent upon the parent to raise them so they can become independent. A child is not responsible for the well being of the parent. It is the responsibility of the parents to put their problems aside for the well being of their children.
Its a shit joke and you shouldn't be making it
Edit: here's a thing people from functional families do not understand:
We did not have your experience. We are not whining because of misconceptions. Our childhoods were monstrous. Our family units objectively broken. There is no familial bond, only trauma ones.
You cannot understand because you have no frame of reference to this level of dysfunction. And so you try and apply your framework instead, and skew the corners to fit.
Don't do that.
I guarantee you my parents said all of this in all seriousness. It took decades of therapy to undo the damage of my childhood and I still have issues to work through.
I’m sure there are some that joke around and that’s fine. I’m not trying to claim your mother was abusive when she said it. But I wouldn’t use that as an excuse to minimize a lot of others pain.
I pray to whatever god wants to listen that you don't have kids. You are a legitimately awful parent.
Cool story. Quick question: you ever honestly and angrily called your kid a little cunt to their face? Ever hit them so hard with something that the item in question broke? Or my personal favourite anecdote, woken your kid up by hurling a kilogram of solid frozen lamb chops at their head screaming about freezer burn?
Don't excuse shitty parents who take their unhappiness out on helpless children.
Ever.
I don't think I ever suggested beating a child
You tried to equate parental frustration and childish obliviousness with familial abuse. As you should be aware, my comments were to highlight the difference between "gee, mums get frustrated sometimes" and what the actual topic of this thread is.
And you don't have to beat a kid to be a shitty parent, jsyk.
Nope. That was all you
This thread is so flush with anti-natalists, I don't think it's part of the equation.
So why make a comment about "gee i never got why mum was stressed as a kid then i grew up and realised adult things" on a post explicitly about abusive parents?
You do see what that looks like, right?
It's a post about grown ups no longer talking to their parents.
because............?
No but shut up and be grateful is clearly the point of your comment
Logic and compassion come sporadically to you don't they
That wasn't my point at all
Please do elaborate. What the hell then was your point
Tbf, that bit is somewhat dependent on context. I agree, >90% of parents that do that are just shit. My personal experience was different - my dad though ahead and had a specific setup for paddling. Multiple warnings ahead of time, and used narrow-handled wooden spoons, so they'd break so he couldn't put too much force into it
yeah still fucked up tho.
I mean, having specific implements you choose to hit your kid with. Consider that. Also consider the fact I literally wrote a paragraph detailing clear abuse...and your brain tried to excuse it. I'm not calling you an apologist, just..think about how your brain did that.
And yes, I'm aware of "how it was back then" I'm genX. It's still messed up.
Way to ignore half of my comment
Go fuck yourself. The fact you're willing to type that proves you're an asshole, and I'm not even surprised you turned out to be like that
Smart strawkid: ok, why are you taking your frustrations out on me then and wondering why i avoid you later in life.
Turnabout is fair play. Strawkids has been straw-taking their straw-stration out on me their entire life.
You do realise you're a grown arse adult and they're not, right?
You're the one who's supposed to be teaching them emotional regulation
They're made out of straw.
Mate, you stepped in a beehive. Deciding to make a jester's dance of it is not a wise decision
If you conflate "I gave birth to you and fed you, you owe me" with "parenting is hard work", please drop your kids off at the nearest shelter as you are unfit to be a parent.
This hits close to home. I don't talk to my mother anymore.
I'm so grateful that my mother wasn't a piece of shit. I mean, she has her faults. She voted for the shitbird three times, thus ending our relationship (I won't speak to her because of it), but she really tried. She wasn't abusive. She sucked and piled on baggage from her own bs, but it wasn't really her fault; she just had shortcomings.
Meanwhile, I watch bodycam videos on youtube and feel horrible for some children. Thanks, Mom!
It is still f****** that THIS is the comic that hordes on the internet decided to concentrate all their hatred on
Based on deliberate overreaction to hyperbole in an anti-sexist comic strip sexists dug up over a year after it was published in order to have something to complain about.
Oh man, I choose the bear over anyone who complained about this comic.
Anyone who wouldn't choose the bear does not deserve bears.
Lucky bear-stard.
People won't care as much if I shoot a bear.
I choose the bear over anyone who keeps bringing up bear vs man thing
That’s okay, I don’t get personally offended if people don’t want to be in a forest with me :)
Jeez the comics on that page are bad
Given any identifying information regarding the comic has been cropped out (as is often the case when people post comics), what comic is it?
Blobby and friends
Thank you
OP has properly attributed and given source in the post.
I guess we can make ourselves feel good about just about anything.
I have never felt more connected to a comic, ever.
You had a pet blobfish too?
I think my 45 year old brother has stokholm syndrome and still lives like this
my mum
me_irl
They are obviously just selfish of course.
There's a worrying increase that I'm seeing from the women that I come across that harbor this mentality where they think everybody owes them everything for simply existing. These are the same type of women who think that their parents are selfish and failures for not giving everything their child everything they ask for or that their children owe them everything and should live to serve them because they brought them into the world and raised them or that any man they go out with should worship them and do everything for them while they do nothing in return because they think they're the grand prize for any man.
I feel like this mentality was a lot more rare and fringe a decade ago. For whatever reason its becoming more and more popular. It's still a minority, but definitely more prominant.
A lot of women are raised that they are Princesses, and they should insist on being treated as such.
Then they grow up and find out that while you might be the center of your own universe, you aren't the center of anyone else's, and nobody wants to indulge or tolerate your Princess Complex.
I do wanna just chime in that this particular comic shows a mom but plenty of dads are like this, too, so I hope you don't take this comic as some evidence of "women nowadays = bad".
When I said, I came up as atheist it was much intense version of this interaction atleast though they were understanding after my resilience 😅
Frankly, I don't trust people who trot out their "AI-dar" without explaining. It feels like an cheap excuse to take a shot at creative works or people they don't like.
AI-dar folks would have said that Calvin & Hobbes, The Far Side Gallery, or Peanuts to be AI slop, if they were invented today.
It's also sad how often they're wrong yet continue to accuse randomly.
You still insulted a real artist by comparing their work to AI.
boooooo
Source is from 4 years ago so i don't think so.
I hate the world we live in now where the safest response to everything is "is this AI?". Better to be proven wrong rather than fooled again by fucking chatGPT.
And the only proof is the content being made before ~2022.
It is kind of the blobby AI cartoon art style, but the characters are frame-appropriate in all their details, something AI usually fucks up somewhere along the line.
If you check the source the comic is a little over 4 years old, so I 'm gonna say it's a strong "Not AI"
Almost 100% non AI. AI 4 years ago would not be able to make anything even close to this.
Are we going to eventually approach a day where AI is the only thing capable of writing or drawing, and humans can only pass around AI slop instead of proper memes?
Not as long as I'm alive at least, or at least as long as I'm using the internet since if I weren't using it I wouldn't be making online memes
As long as we have gradeschool kids + pencils + paper + boredom people will continue learning how to doodle
Nope
Guys, I think this commenter is a bot
I misread this as "al-dar" and thought it was some cool reference
Superman's cousin
Could be. But in this case, I don't mind.