I worry this may be a real problem though because there is not any real distinction in the messaging.
I work in a small data center. Its a 50x100 ft or so room with a few dozen racks of servers in a non descript old telco building. Not a giant water and energy sucking monster.
A bunch of the anti-data center propaganda on social media doesn't make this distinction and it makes it sound like they don't know what tf they're talking about, especially given that they're posting it on a platform powered by data centers and pretty much every internet-based service they use goes through a data center. Even well known leftist accounts are doing this, and they need to get better about clarifying their message because the way they're promoting it right now makes everyone associated with them look stupid
China didn't attack Iran and send global oil prices sky high. China doesn't bully my government into bad defence contracts.
I'm so tired of racist fear mongering about China. They aren't a perfect country, but the suggestion of the United States judging any other nation right now is mind boggling.
China didn't continually insist Iran was two weeks away from a nuclear weapon for five decades, nor did they bomb and kill the religious leader that expressly declared nuclear and chemical weapons are against God and Islam.
Believing American narratives at face value is an unhinged reality to live in.
Your also forgetting about some middle eastern country's and a lot of African countrys, a few of them lost harbers and other inferstructure hubs and now act as there own when debts collapse and they repoed those places. Chinas not bombing people but they are definitely acting colonial, just they're own version.
I never contested that america was bombing people you arragent dolt. They courced plenty of African and some middle East nations into bed defencive contract through rigged construction project that were purposly hard to pay off so China could repo the ports and building into military inferstructure.
They courced plenty of African and some middle East nations into bed defencive contract through rigged construction project that were purposly hard to pay off so China could repo the ports and building into military inferstructure.
This never happened, and we can tell you're bullshiting by the fact you can't actually name a specific country, just a deliberately vague "African and middle eastern nations".
What countries? Also you spell like a chud. I've never been called arrogant by someone who couldn't even spell it. Maybe try turning on spellcheck if you want people to take you seriously.
This a great example of how deeply ingrained racist anti-China fear mongering is in westerners: this person has zero evidence or idea if it's true, but they're just going to assert that it "definitely" is, based on nothing but their deep hatred of China.
When he says alliance, what he means is how Australia is paying the US to cuckold it about 2nd hand submarines it will never get, while also paying the US to gaslight Australia that they will get them as long as they continue letting the US cuckold Australia until that makes them respect them enough to then sell the 2nd hand submarines.
The rage against Data Centers must be because of filthy foreigners, it couldn't possibly be because of how the 100% American billionaries and their bought and paid for 100% American politicians are imposing on everybody by hook and by crook something which for everybody but said billionaires is a net bad thing (since for everybody but those capturing the profits of Data Centers, the nasty side effects of them vastly exceed the minuscule benefits from them which are nothing more than a handful of new jobs per Data Center).
"Always blame foreigners" is a core practice American political discourse, quite independly of which side of the Power Duopoly one is aligned with, probably because it perfectly dovetails with the American Exceptionalism the locals are indictrinated in their whole lives.
Any of you read the article that OpenAI wrote? Here's a quote: "The operation sought to exploit and amplify existing public concerns about energy prices and local impacts of data center development, but we found no evidence of meaningful breakout beyond its own activity ." So it's less "China is making you hate data centers" and more "they tried but it didn't work".
This is valuable because it shows that China believes this is a wedge issue they can use. Doesn't really matter to me if it works or not tbh, just that it aligns with their interests is concerning. It would be really interesting if we had info about what other topics China or Russia are investing time into and how they align with domestic political clusters.
Just brainlessly taking openAi at their word. And then just randomly adding Russia in their, out of the blue, because to the fascist westerner "Russia and China" is just a single undifferentiated horde of evil foreigners.
More BS pre-IPO marketing PR, look our tech is so dangerous and scary China is trying to shut it down.
Even though China is basically in the lead with open weight models that use less energy to run (MoE) and cost (probably way) less than a tenth as much to train for around 90%+ the effectiveness of frontier models.
Easy to do when people don't fucking want them, and more specifically, they do not add any value to ppls lives, they only take to away. If only we have reps who represented anything but their own self interests.
They absolutely do this but it doesn't mean anti datacenter people are wrong. Russia, China, Iran all use amplification techniques to destabilize other countries. You don't need a complex propaganda plan when you can just amplify every divisive topic and get brexit.
You don't need a complex propaganda plan when the U.S. government and corporations conspire daily for new ways to fuck us over. It's not propaganda at that point.
Why not both? The word propaganda is a bit problematic as it encapsulates too much these days simply because our information landscape is much richer. It can be a valid issue that is amplified by bad actors and it's still propaganda.
What makes it apparent imo is the "water use" discussions around data centers which frankly are so delulu that it reeks of artificial stimulation. If you're not familiar there's basically no water use issue with data center in any meaningful extent other than moving water and we solved moving water 2 millenia ago.
Great standard of evidence there: "even when I have to admit the cause of a problem in the West might not be Foreigners, it could also be foreigners as well!"
Because calling it propaganda is also propaganda. It's just another distraction from the fact that a man with 34 felonies has not been sentenced, nobody from the Epstein files has been prosecuted and both Democratic and Republican politicians are more interested in supporting Israel's genocide than serving the American people.
The profound xenophobia of westerners mean they don't even hesitate to make assertions about "enemy" countries despite the fact they have zero evidence, not even bad evidence, other than their own gut feelings of hostility. What evidence do they have that china "absolutely attempts to turn Americans against Data centers"? None at all, but that doesn't matter, it's a negative accusation against a non western nation. What evidence do they have that Iran uses "amplification techniques" to destabilize the West? Well it just feels true, after all, they are coniving foreigners, and surely they must be responsible for the political issues in the West, as the West is too superior to be the source of its own problems.
Because there is no Chinese campaign against data centers. China was simply pointing out the environmental and economic impacts data centers have on the areas around them.
Who is saying data centers are okay? They are not. And I do not even have any issue with LLM usage, yet I still recognize that data centers are incredibly resource-intensive and can have significant impacts on the communities that host them.
I think the predominant logic in the thread is that China trying to influence Americans against datacenters can't be true because that could be an attempt to make a pro-datacenter argument, even though it's not.
I think the logic is more noting that the pro-datacenter argument aligns with linking opposition to them to foreign actors.
Anti-China sentiment is extremely powerful to tap into, and the AI crowd absolutely is pulling out every stop to keep the bubble unpopped. Tapping into that energy for public opinion is the least surprising approach they could be taking.
I understand that it's easy to believe someone could make this up to undermine anti-AI arguments. I don't understand why it's less easy to believe China would use social media to further their own goals - like everybody does. I mean, sometimes reality aligns with what somebody on the wrong team says.
Kevin O'Leary (Shark Tank) makes the same claim. He isn't connected with OpenAI but is behind building a Utah datacenter, so he has no credibility either. The problem is, even if China really is doing this, nobody in the anti-AI community will believe it unless somebody points it out who is part of the community - just like with most other major issues. The Information Age has turned out to be a cluster of impenetrable echo chambers.
In addition to the TikTok platform promoting conservatives and other anti-Biden sentiment, which they later did yet again in Germany for the AFD, they also voluntarily shut their own app down for the election and blamed Biden for it, then later turned their services back on and thanked Trump.
Trump's smiling face was plastered all over Tankie communities like ML and Hexbear.
Trump is the only POTUS to ever speak so fondly of Xi Jinping, of Kim Jong Un, of Putin. When Jinping first officially ended his own term limits, Trump sincerely congratulated him and asked about doing the same thing in the USA.
China, including Xi Jinping himself, congratulated Trump in turn. Some Chinese celebrated, they believe that the rise of Trump is the Fall of the West and therefor the Rise of China, because they inherently do not believe in coexistence.
Trump wanted to ban it during his first term after TT users organized RSVPing a Trump event he booked an entire stadium for. TT responded by hiring a bunch of natsec ghouls to run moderation, and someone in Trump's staff did the very basic math of "promoting a ban of popular thing hurts election chances and has literally no benefits".
Its weird how you're rewriting history as if the democrats weren't pushing a ban under Biden, complete with a confused Pelosi going "We're going to make Tik Tok, Tic Tac Toe!", and 80% of Lemmy supporting it, as if it wasn't going to decrease dem's own voter turnout.
According to your own link the bill was proposed by Trump, passed with Bipartisan support, and was unenforceable until after Biden would long since be gone from office.
What are you claiming I rewrote? What specifically do you think was incorrect about my summary?
The democrats were pushing hard for a tiktok ban during Biden's entire term. You are rewriting history as if Tiktok shutting down preemptively wasn't in response to a ban that was going to hit in a couple months under the Biden regime.
Ah yes, thank you, I had forgotten that the whole TikTok saga counts as explicit and open assistance. Really quite disappointing for us China enthusiasts, I can tell you.
Nah, don't even give it credibility of thought. This is propaganda for sure. "Oh the Chinese don't want you to have data centers, give us all your water and electricity so the Chinese don't win pleeease"
China may not want the US to lead the AI races, but don't forget these AI companies are trying to destroy communities in the name of corporate profits.
Having advanced AI is a key national security tool for any nations. While it is true that data centres are environmentally and socially damaging, it is to China's advantage that the Western public turns sour on AI and data centres. So yes, both can be true at the same time.
Have you heard of...China? And cameras? Social credits?
They've been putting cameras and microphones in for decades over there. We're just now scratching the surface with flock, can only imagine what it's like over there with ai cameras now.
It isn't just surveillance. It's about innovating. What created a strong tech sector in the west was innovation. China wants us to put down the new thing so they can build the patents and develop the sector. It isn't great that AI exists. But rejecting it is going to hurt more than if we use it.
For who?
That's how innovation happens. It's like saying you don't think it's useful to read all the books on a subject. You can't just open a page to exactly what you need.
I see a lot of you phrasing things like "whatever it is we getting" but are we all really ignorant to the reality of the way these tools increase productivity? Like that's just putting your head into the ground. When I was younger the left was where I thought wise people were.
Its only slightly inconvenient to get around The Great Firewall. Alipay and Wechat, which literally every phone in China have can be used to buy a HK-based esim@ ~40 cents/gb in 2 minutes, vpn services are also a thing, but less convenient. Its only necessary for blocked websites like google-owned ones though. Heres some dogs I saw in Nanning.
Don't be fooled. These Chinese users are being tricked into tricking Americans by secret anti-ai American efforts to trick them into tricking Americans.
I wouldn't have a problem if data centers if they weren't cut insane deals where they don't have to pay property tax or any sales tax while also raising prices on all the local utilities. It's literally just a matter of paying their share rather than pocketing all the profits.
Being anti-AI or anti-datacenter isn't a reason to deny that China is doing this. It's not like they don't want there to be datacenters, they just want everybody to use theirs.
Which evidence of China wanting data center out of the US do you have ?
They are not even capitalist. I am not sure our schools readyed us with tools to understand their system.
But I can't exclude you point of view as false too so I am asking.
Wut? They have corporations, stock markets, billionaires... I don't even know how to respond. China is a major competitor in world markets. Might as well ask for evidence that China is real.
Yeah and Europe have healcare, what is the point ?
Dude you start by assuming Ill intent, I call you out and now you are divaging. Are you fine ?
You look confused.
The part of it we interact with. But they clearly hâve a complexe society and can't be resumed by one face like Europe or the US.
And we got fed so much propaganda, I dunno.
That's plausible I guess, the ops goal is always to sow division, and data centres are weirdly divisive atm. It's easy to imagine a lot of the posts about them are from foreign actors, especially when you consider the vague complaints like water usage and quality that don't stand up to basic scrutiny.
If I was a foreign intelligence agency I'd be capitalising on this momentum in slopulist spaces like this one. In fact OP's post is pretty lazy as well, so if their post history fits the pattern I'd assume they're also a sock.
Your assumptions are bad. We hate data centers because they poison the surrounding population, accelerate climate change, and require ungodly amounts of power and water, so that you don't get to talk to a human who works in customer service until you wade through their slop machines.
That’s plausible I guess, the ops goal is always to sow division, and data centres are weirdly divisive atm. It’s easy to imagine a lot of the posts about them are from foreign actors
Western liberals thought pattern boiled down to its essence: Thing is bad, so thing is probably the fault of coniving foreigners
I am usually very pro chinese except for the part where they seem to embrace AI. As for ai data centers and Large language models at all: I despise them.
There are human rights abuses in every western country; i like china because of their push for clean energy and because they might be a potential counterweight to US hegemony. I see no hope in a future where the US has the type of control and power it posseses right now.
I'm going to meet you both in the middle and let you know real quick, they're not funding this for funsies. This is their automated surveillance platform. They know the bubble is about to pop, they're just getting a sale on data centers to store audio, video, the works.
Not a fan of the technology at all, i know there are legitimate uses in science with specialized dsta sets, but the way LLM's seem to be implemented as an all emcompassing swiss knife and how they seem to be touted as replacing humans for cultural production those are two applications of the technology i particularly despise. Personally i will never consume any cultural product where the creative process wss parsed through an LLM, and i especially hate ai music. And i refuse to use Llm's for work.
As for data centers i feel expensive frontier models reach diminishing returns as they become larger, to the point in the future it will be more feasible for the people that use llm's to run sepcialized open source models locally. Not something i will ever do. But it sounds more logical than all mad infrastructure cost and environmental disaster US companies are planning.
I also believe this mad push for data center infrastructure obeys a logic of privatization and centralization of compute: make it so the users can't buy their own hardware so that they are forced to rent compute to the tech companies. Again China seems a light in the tunnel for this as their chip manufacturing industry might fill the hole left by western hyperscalers.
I like china because i've always liked their push for clean energy. also as someone from the global south i have no hope left for Europe or the united states, especially with most of western leaders seeming so keen to push far right governments to control my country or my neighbors. So i see china at least as a counterweight. I know this oppinion is scary to westerners, but westerners not being in complete control for once can be actually good.
Clean energy? Energy period is what China pushes, they've been HALF of the world's coal consumption for the last 15 years or so. For every solar farm, a coal plant.
Could that have anything to do with china being the world manufacturing hub? Decades of offloading industrial capacity to a single country and then blaming them for the emissions that causes?
Oh yeah, big bad China stole your industry lmao, it wasn't your own leaders choosing the cheapest option that allows them to extract hyper profits. And to say China destroyed worker power is laughable, the goal of the entire West has been to destroy labor unions and bargaining power.
China definitely is. I don't really get how you people don't see this. You're on a pretty heavy CCP influenced social media site. This was one of the generators of anti AI. I bet if you used way back machine you'd see a lot of the anti AI meme's and opinions were originating here. Articles and opinions were heavily astro turfed and I even called this out at the time. It was a barrage of articles and posts that were all eerily similar to right wing content that is aimed at immigrants. It was all the same appeals. Articles about the evil horde of AI coming to attack your daughters and wives and take your jobs and steal your culture. It was a threat and you needed to fear it.
100% China wants their competitors to reject any new tech. Especially if that tech is potentially going to be disruptive. They don't want the average westerner playing around with it and innovating. This isn't an endorsement of AI. But you're blind if you don't realize that much of our anti AI content is driven by AstroTurfing in order to shoot ourselves in our own foot. This technology is here. It sucks. But if you're not using it and learning it and innovating, it's going to be a lot worse for you.
AI is shaking up everything. My professors are constantly using it for their research to get more accurate simulations, for example. Instead of tweaking parameters for ages an AI tweaks them live while the simulation is running.
Chat bots / LLMs are overhyped and used for lots of things they shouldn't do but AI is here to stay.
Do you think the majority of new datacenters going up are going to be used for those useful niche cases, or LLM slop that they're going to try to shove down consumers throats?
If I were you, I'd look up what a bubble is in economic terms. You sure as fuck can't eat anything in a data center, and when people realize how stupid this push has been to put llms in everything, you're gonna wish you put up more of a fight against them.
The.. Dotcom bubble where investors ignored revenue and profibility which resulted in a market crash and huge economic downturn? The dotcom bubble that this new ai bubble is 100x bigger than?
Except they won't. All these people using it are a lot more intelligent than you and have access to numbers and data showing benefits. You have astroturfed media you read on a pro CCP website
China doesn't even have to believe that more domestic datacenters is a good bet for the US. Any in fighting and division directly benefits them. I mean they wrote an entire book on this over 1.5 milenia ago.
Russia and China are very well known to use firehose of falsehoods campaigns. it worked so well for them for creating trump, brexit etc - why would they stop now?
The issue here is people being dumb enough to believe there's some intent and try to extrapolate some sort of real reality from that when it's literally just spam.
There was no significant movement against datacenters until recently. You all still rely on datacenters everyday for posting on places like this or just using the internet in general. So this does look very manufactured and people were pointing this out even before OpenAI started talking about it. People didn't really seem to hate AI before the past few years either.
You realize that it was only just recently that there's been a huge push to a lot of new huge datacenters that need their own gas power plants because they're ADVERTISING them for how much power they use.
Yes there were datacenters before and nobody wants to block ALL datacenters, but this push is different.
of course there is a ram shortage. the point i was trying to make that way more people are affected by increasing power prices they have to pay anyways, than by computers that got more expensive.
Ai wasn’t widely discussed until these past few years because it wasn’t threatening to take our jobs then.
Of course we are using data centers for places like these, but these public forums are built for people. While the CEO of Nvidia only referred to people in his latest (?) speech as “humans”, and the only reasonable explanation would be to distance yourself from everyone so you don’t feel the empathetic pain of being the direct cause of the ram shortage.
Not to mention, the cost of producing AI generated images is significantly more than just saving and sending and receiving text and images for a place like this.
OpenAI is doing a much better job than China at getting people to hate AI.
Im not against data centers, that's mostly where the internet runs from. Im against AI data centers though
I worry this may be a real problem though because there is not any real distinction in the messaging.
I work in a small data center. Its a 50x100 ft or so room with a few dozen racks of servers in a non descript old telco building. Not a giant water and energy sucking monster.
Just put a sign up outside that says "Not for AI" or "These are porn servers not AI"
"Local PornHub CDN"
A bunch of the anti-data center propaganda on social media doesn't make this distinction and it makes it sound like they don't know what tf they're talking about, especially given that they're posting it on a platform powered by data centers and pretty much every internet-based service they use goes through a data center. Even well known leftist accounts are doing this, and they need to get better about clarifying their message because the way they're promoting it right now makes everyone associated with them look stupid
Considering this, I'm even more against data centers 😁
China didn't attack Iran and send global oil prices sky high. China doesn't bully my government into bad defence contracts.
I'm so tired of racist fear mongering about China. They aren't a perfect country, but the suggestion of the United States judging any other nation right now is mind boggling.
China didn't continually insist Iran was two weeks away from a nuclear weapon for five decades, nor did they bomb and kill the religious leader that expressly declared nuclear and chemical weapons are against God and Islam.
Believing American narratives at face value is an unhinged reality to live in.
Don't forget 150 little girls on the first day of the "war"
America is the most propagandized place on Earth, after all.
They in fact made a law that makes it illegal to layoff workers specifically to replace them with ai
(China deff has done that second thing btw.)
Didn't bomb Iran tho
China hasn't dropped a bomb in 50 years. How many countries has the US bombed in the last 10?
You don't need to drop bombs to bully countries around you
What's the bullying by China? Financial manipulation via the great belt?
I do acknowledge some of their neighbours have legitimate reasons to complain. e.g. Tibet. The Philippines.
That may all be bad but it's not on the same scale as starting a war that affects the world.
Especially a war that's so goddamn stupid, wasn't necessary and is about to end in a embarassing loss.
My thoughts were mostly of Tibet and the other constant border disputes, but yes I can't disagree with the assessment of the war in Iran.
Your also forgetting about some middle eastern country's and a lot of African countrys, a few of them lost harbers and other inferstructure hubs and now act as there own when debts collapse and they repoed those places. Chinas not bombing people but they are definitely acting colonial, just they're own version.
Source: it came to me in a dream
Source: Fucking Washington DC, lol
Show us your work.
https://africacenter.org/spotlight/china-africa-maritime-networks/
you people are brainwashed.
http://ddg.co/chinese+debt+trap+is+a+myth
https://africacenter.org/spotlight/china-africa-maritime-networks/
you people are brainwashed.
Answer the question, lol.
I never contested that america was bombing people you arragent dolt. They courced plenty of African and some middle East nations into bed defencive contract through rigged construction project that were purposly hard to pay off so China could repo the ports and building into military inferstructure.
This never happened, and we can tell you're bullshiting by the fact you can't actually name a specific country, just a deliberately vague "African and middle eastern nations".
What countries? Also you spell like a chud. I've never been called arrogant by someone who couldn't even spell it. Maybe try turning on spellcheck if you want people to take you seriously.
https://africacenter.org/spotlight/china-africa-maritime-networks/
you people are brainwashed.
This a great example of how deeply ingrained racist anti-China fear mongering is in westerners: this person has zero evidence or idea if it's true, but they're just going to assert that it "definitely" is, based on nothing but their deep hatred of China.
Judging by their spelling, they're not the sharpest spoon in the drawer.
True, but plenty of examples of people with perfectly fine stirring spelling and the same absurd beliefs in this thread
Australia has no defence contracts with China. Partly because of the "alliance" with the United States.
When he says alliance, what he means is how Australia is paying the US to cuckold it about 2nd hand submarines it will never get, while also paying the US to gaslight Australia that they will get them as long as they continue letting the US cuckold Australia until that makes them respect them enough to then sell the 2nd hand submarines.
Although, technically, China did help elect the US Admin which did bomb Iran.
Lol. It's obviously a consortium of trans, immigrants and antifa that are behind it. While Michelle Obama and Soros are funding the operation.
You mean the well known male politician, Michelle Obama?
In a armless dress of all things!
/S
You gotta do the /s
Even that shit you typed just now, somebody believes it.
Yeah they're turning Americans against data centers by describing them objectively, how insidious...
They're taking away our freedom medislop to sell their own Pooh slop
::: spoiler Tap for spoiler i'm neither from the usa or china. i hate their governments :::
I'm guessing the motive would for their AI to be in a better position
The rage against Data Centers must be because of filthy foreigners, it couldn't possibly be because of how the 100% American billionaries and their bought and paid for 100% American politicians are imposing on everybody by hook and by crook something which for everybody but said billionaires is a net bad thing (since for everybody but those capturing the profits of Data Centers, the nasty side effects of them vastly exceed the minuscule benefits from them which are nothing more than a handful of new jobs per Data Center).
"Always blame foreigners" is a core practice American political discourse, quite independly of which side of the Power Duopoly one is aligned with, probably because it perfectly dovetails with the American Exceptionalism the locals are indictrinated in their whole lives.
*trillionaires
Any of you read the article that OpenAI wrote? Here's a quote: "The operation sought to exploit and amplify existing public concerns about energy prices and local impacts of data center development, but we found no evidence of meaningful breakout beyond its own activity ." So it's less "China is making you hate data centers" and more "they tried but it didn't work".
More like "We tried to blame it on China but couldn't find evidence to back up our accusations"
But we put the accusation in the title anyway, confident that no one will read anything else.
It turned out people didn't need China to find reasons to hate our data centers.
This is valuable because it shows that China believes this is a wedge issue they can use. Doesn't really matter to me if it works or not tbh, just that it aligns with their interests is concerning. It would be really interesting if we had info about what other topics China or Russia are investing time into and how they align with domestic political clusters.
.. You believe openAI, why?
Just brainlessly taking openAi at their word. And then just randomly adding Russia in their, out of the blue, because to the fascist westerner "Russia and China" is just a single undifferentiated horde of evil foreigners.
More BS pre-IPO marketing PR, look our tech is so dangerous and scary China is trying to shut it down.
Even though China is basically in the lead with open weight models that use less energy to run (MoE) and cost (probably way) less than a tenth as much to train for around 90%+ the effectiveness of frontier models.
Easy to do when people don't fucking want them, and more specifically, they do not add any value to ppls lives, they only take to away. If only we have reps who represented anything but their own self interests.
They absolutely do this but it doesn't mean anti datacenter people are wrong. Russia, China, Iran all use amplification techniques to destabilize other countries. You don't need a complex propaganda plan when you can just amplify every divisive topic and get brexit.
You don't need a complex propaganda plan when the U.S. government and corporations conspire daily for new ways to fuck us over. It's not propaganda at that point.
Why not both? The word propaganda is a bit problematic as it encapsulates too much these days simply because our information landscape is much richer. It can be a valid issue that is amplified by bad actors and it's still propaganda.
What makes it apparent imo is the "water use" discussions around data centers which frankly are so delulu that it reeks of artificial stimulation. If you're not familiar there's basically no water use issue with data center in any meaningful extent other than moving water and we solved moving water 2 millenia ago.
Great standard of evidence there: "even when I have to admit the cause of a problem in the West might not be Foreigners, it could also be foreigners as well!"
Because calling it propaganda is also propaganda. It's just another distraction from the fact that a man with 34 felonies has not been sentenced, nobody from the Epstein files has been prosecuted and both Democratic and Republican politicians are more interested in supporting Israel's genocide than serving the American people.
Don't see how "china is boosting datacenter misinformation" related to "US' president is a felon"
I think you're a bit lost here.
The profound xenophobia of westerners mean they don't even hesitate to make assertions about "enemy" countries despite the fact they have zero evidence, not even bad evidence, other than their own gut feelings of hostility. What evidence do they have that china "absolutely attempts to turn Americans against Data centers"? None at all, but that doesn't matter, it's a negative accusation against a non western nation. What evidence do they have that Iran uses "amplification techniques" to destabilize the West? Well it just feels true, after all, they are coniving foreigners, and surely they must be responsible for the political issues in the West, as the West is too superior to be the source of its own problems.
chatgpt is shitting on americans· how are people not supposed to turn on those grippers?
"Our PS2 is so powerful Iraq is building WMDs with it!"
Because there is no Chinese campaign against data centers. China was simply pointing out the environmental and economic impacts data centers have on the areas around them.
Who is saying data centers are okay? They are not. And I do not even have any issue with LLM usage, yet I still recognize that data centers are incredibly resource-intensive and can have significant impacts on the communities that host them.
I think the predominant logic in the thread is that China trying to influence Americans against datacenters can't be true because that could be an attempt to make a pro-datacenter argument, even though it's not.
I think the logic is more noting that the pro-datacenter argument aligns with linking opposition to them to foreign actors.
Anti-China sentiment is extremely powerful to tap into, and the AI crowd absolutely is pulling out every stop to keep the bubble unpopped. Tapping into that energy for public opinion is the least surprising approach they could be taking.
I understand that it's easy to believe someone could make this up to undermine anti-AI arguments. I don't understand why it's less easy to believe China would use social media to further their own goals - like everybody does. I mean, sometimes reality aligns with what somebody on the wrong team says.
Oh, the reason for that is the claimant here is OpenAI. That's why there's this credibility hurdle in people's reactions.
Kevin O'Leary (Shark Tank) makes the same claim. He isn't connected with OpenAI but is behind building a Utah datacenter, so he has no credibility either. The problem is, even if China really is doing this, nobody in the anti-AI community will believe it unless somebody points it out who is part of the community - just like with most other major issues. The Information Age has turned out to be a cluster of impenetrable echo chambers.
It's crazy that the idea that you should actually present evidence to support the accusation against China doesn't even occur to you.
China is not only pro-AI but demonstrably aided in electing the pro-AI GOP in the USA 2024 election cycle.
Haven't heard of this one, just the mountain of evidence for Russia doing it - got any sources?
In addition to the TikTok platform promoting conservatives and other anti-Biden sentiment, which they later did yet again in Germany for the AFD, they also voluntarily shut their own app down for the election and blamed Biden for it, then later turned their services back on and thanked Trump.
Trump's smiling face was plastered all over Tankie communities like ML and Hexbear.
Trump is the only POTUS to ever speak so fondly of Xi Jinping, of Kim Jong Un, of Putin. When Jinping first officially ended his own term limits, Trump sincerely congratulated him and asked about doing the same thing in the USA.
China, including Xi Jinping himself, congratulated Trump in turn. Some Chinese celebrated, they believe that the rise of Trump is the Fall of the West and therefor the Rise of China, because they inherently do not believe in coexistence.
Biden was in the process of banning it.
Trump wanted to ban it during his first term after TT users organized RSVPing a Trump event he booked an entire stadium for. TT responded by hiring a bunch of natsec ghouls to run moderation, and someone in Trump's staff did the very basic math of "promoting a ban of popular thing hurts election chances and has literally no benefits".
Congress was in the process of banning all data collection which operated for a list of adversarial nations maintained by the Pentagon.
Biden promised not to shut it down during the campaign.
Literally nobody went into TikTok HQ and forced them to turn off and then on again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_ban_TikTok_in_the_United_States#Biden_administration_(2021%E2%80%932025)
Its weird how you're rewriting history as if the democrats weren't pushing a ban under Biden, complete with a confused Pelosi going "We're going to make Tik Tok, Tic Tac Toe!", and 80% of Lemmy supporting it, as if it wasn't going to decrease dem's own voter turnout.
According to your own link the bill was proposed by Trump, passed with Bipartisan support, and was unenforceable until after Biden would long since be gone from office.
What are you claiming I rewrote? What specifically do you think was incorrect about my summary?
The democrats were pushing hard for a tiktok ban during Biden's entire term. You are rewriting history as if Tiktok shutting down preemptively wasn't in response to a ban that was going to hit in a couple months under the Biden regime.
Ah yes, thank you, I had forgotten that the whole TikTok saga counts as explicit and open assistance. Really quite disappointing for us China enthusiasts, I can tell you.
There is betting on a dark horse and then there is betting on an apocalypse horse.
Next after this post about chineese users,
A story about a man who says theres something on his shirt, is he gullible enough to fall for it?
I mean I would not put it past them, but I still hate the slop factories. Two things can be true at once.
Nah, don't even give it credibility of thought. This is propaganda for sure. "Oh the Chinese don't want you to have data centers, give us all your water and electricity so the Chinese don't win pleeease"
China may not want the US to lead the AI races, but don't forget these AI companies are trying to destroy communities in the name of corporate profits.
Having advanced AI is a key national security tool for any nations. While it is true that data centres are environmentally and socially damaging, it is to China's advantage that the Western public turns sour on AI and data centres. So yes, both can be true at the same time.
yeah clearly because Iran just ate shit against the US
oh but .ml so this will just end up being water off a duck's brain
"There's no evidence, but I'm already deeply sinophobic, so I'll that assume it's true!"
China loves data centers though. How else are they gonna enable their mass surveillance?
You know American surveillance is 100x worse right? You've heard of Snowden and Assange?
Have you heard of...China? And cameras? Social credits?
They've been putting cameras and microphones in for decades over there. We're just now scratching the surface with flock, can only imagine what it's like over there with ai cameras now.
Google the social credit thing and then get back to me.
Also you know you have a credit score too, and it affects where you can live, what car you can drive, and where you can work, lol.
Google which country has the most surveillance...how is this even an argument lmao
Google is literally part of your government surveillance 😂
Any updates on the social credit thing? Did you read about how that was bullshit propaganda, lol?
Believing the US somehow has worse surveillence then China of all places...definitely some bullshit propaganda, agreed 👍
Western liberals are the most profoundly unserious people on earth
It isn't just surveillance. It's about innovating. What created a strong tech sector in the west was innovation. China wants us to put down the new thing so they can build the patents and develop the sector. It isn't great that AI exists. But rejecting it is going to hurt more than if we use it.
I'd argue that the current capitalism speedrun of shoving ai into literally everything is just as bad as rejecting it, if not worse.
For who? That's how innovation happens. It's like saying you don't think it's useful to read all the books on a subject. You can't just open a page to exactly what you need.
Yes, this is a shitty space race. Instead of putting a man on the moon we get ... whatever it is we're getting.
I see a lot of you phrasing things like "whatever it is we getting" but are we all really ignorant to the reality of the way these tools increase productivity? Like that's just putting your head into the ground. When I was younger the left was where I thought wise people were.
*China based-users
China based users are not on the internet. They have they're own intranet that never reaches the outside world.
Its only slightly inconvenient to get around The Great Firewall. Alipay and Wechat, which literally every phone in China have can be used to buy a HK-based esim@ ~40 cents/gb in 2 minutes, vpn services are also a thing, but less convenient. Its only necessary for blocked websites like google-owned ones though. Heres some dogs I saw in Nanning.
::: spoiler spoiler
:::
I support these imaginary China-based users's efforts
Don't be fooled. These Chinese users are being tricked into tricking Americans by secret anti-ai American efforts to trick them into tricking Americans.
I wouldn't have a problem if data centers if they weren't cut insane deals where they don't have to pay property tax or any sales tax while also raising prices on all the local utilities. It's literally just a matter of paying their share rather than pocketing all the profits.
That's not for you, they say that for Trumpel & co.
Being anti-AI or anti-datacenter isn't a reason to deny that China is doing this. It's not like they don't want there to be datacenters, they just want everybody to use theirs.
Theory as valid as this one : openAi is funding an astroturfing campaign to make Being anti AI a crime.
Whether either one is true or false should depend on whether there's evidence of it, not on comparing them for ridiculousness.
Which evidence of China wanting data center out of the US do you have ? They are not even capitalist. I am not sure our schools readyed us with tools to understand their system. But I can't exclude you point of view as false too so I am asking.
Wut? They have corporations, stock markets, billionaires... I don't even know how to respond. China is a major competitor in world markets. Might as well ask for evidence that China is real.
Yeah and Europe have healcare, what is the point ? Dude you start by assuming Ill intent, I call you out and now you are divaging. Are you fine ? You look confused.
They at least look like capitalists
The part of it we interact with. But they clearly hâve a complexe society and can't be resumed by one face like Europe or the US. And we got fed so much propaganda, I dunno.
The overlap between people lamenting data center's water usage while having absolutely no problem with animal agriculture is insane.
That's plausible I guess, the ops goal is always to sow division, and data centres are weirdly divisive atm. It's easy to imagine a lot of the posts about them are from foreign actors, especially when you consider the vague complaints like water usage and quality that don't stand up to basic scrutiny.
If I was a foreign intelligence agency I'd be capitalising on this momentum in slopulist spaces like this one. In fact OP's post is pretty lazy as well, so if their post history fits the pattern I'd assume they're also a sock.
Your assumptions are bad. We hate data centers because they poison the surrounding population, accelerate climate change, and require ungodly amounts of power and water, so that you don't get to talk to a human who works in customer service until you wade through their slop machines.
Western liberals thought pattern boiled down to its essence: Thing is bad, so thing is probably the fault of coniving foreigners
I am usually very pro chinese except for the part where they seem to embrace AI. As for ai data centers and Large language models at all: I despise them.
Yeah, human rights abuses are fine but AI data centers are really the place to draw the line.
Adrien zens human rights abuses, or real ones?
There are human rights abuses in every western country; i like china because of their push for clean energy and because they might be a potential counterweight to US hegemony. I see no hope in a future where the US has the type of control and power it posseses right now.
I'm going to meet you both in the middle and let you know real quick, they're not funding this for funsies. This is their automated surveillance platform. They know the bubble is about to pop, they're just getting a sale on data centers to store audio, video, the works.
It's both of your opinions, but far worse.
Qanon tier racist conspiracy mongering
LLMs have a lot of utility so China has the right idea to pursue them. They're also doing a lot more to mitigate the downsides than the US is
Not a fan of the technology at all, i know there are legitimate uses in science with specialized dsta sets, but the way LLM's seem to be implemented as an all emcompassing swiss knife and how they seem to be touted as replacing humans for cultural production those are two applications of the technology i particularly despise. Personally i will never consume any cultural product where the creative process wss parsed through an LLM, and i especially hate ai music. And i refuse to use Llm's for work.
As for data centers i feel expensive frontier models reach diminishing returns as they become larger, to the point in the future it will be more feasible for the people that use llm's to run sepcialized open source models locally. Not something i will ever do. But it sounds more logical than all mad infrastructure cost and environmental disaster US companies are planning.
I also believe this mad push for data center infrastructure obeys a logic of privatization and centralization of compute: make it so the users can't buy their own hardware so that they are forced to rent compute to the tech companies. Again China seems a light in the tunnel for this as their chip manufacturing industry might fill the hole left by western hyperscalers.
I like the food alright. Their brand of communism that's just an autocracy with a side of capitalism - in communist giftwrap gets me, tho.
Then again, we in the US do the same with freedom and liberty while restricting your life to the small sphere it allows you to afford.
Fuck both, kinda?
I like china because i've always liked their push for clean energy. also as someone from the global south i have no hope left for Europe or the united states, especially with most of western leaders seeming so keen to push far right governments to control my country or my neighbors. So i see china at least as a counterweight. I know this oppinion is scary to westerners, but westerners not being in complete control for once can be actually good.
Clean energy? Energy period is what China pushes, they've been HALF of the world's coal consumption for the last 15 years or so. For every solar farm, a coal plant.
Could that have anything to do with china being the world manufacturing hub? Decades of offloading industrial capacity to a single country and then blaming them for the emissions that causes?
?? I should applaud China for building brand new coal plants because China hollowed out industry and destroyed worker's power elsewhere in the world?
Oh yeah, big bad China stole your industry lmao, it wasn't your own leaders choosing the cheapest option that allows them to extract hyper profits. And to say China destroyed worker power is laughable, the goal of the entire West has been to destroy labor unions and bargaining power.
And they seem to be actively pushing to phase out coal tby spending a lot of money in renewable research, but hey, keep fuming.
China definitely is. I don't really get how you people don't see this. You're on a pretty heavy CCP influenced social media site. This was one of the generators of anti AI. I bet if you used way back machine you'd see a lot of the anti AI meme's and opinions were originating here. Articles and opinions were heavily astro turfed and I even called this out at the time. It was a barrage of articles and posts that were all eerily similar to right wing content that is aimed at immigrants. It was all the same appeals. Articles about the evil horde of AI coming to attack your daughters and wives and take your jobs and steal your culture. It was a threat and you needed to fear it.
100% China wants their competitors to reject any new tech. Especially if that tech is potentially going to be disruptive. They don't want the average westerner playing around with it and innovating. This isn't an endorsement of AI. But you're blind if you don't realize that much of our anti AI content is driven by AstroTurfing in order to shoot ourselves in our own foot. This technology is here. It sucks. But if you're not using it and learning it and innovating, it's going to be a lot worse for you.
Ironic how you call out anti-immigrant fear mongering, then write an entire Sinophobic conspiracy post.
Weird. Humanity it's weirdly complex. Imagine a world of complexity outside the internet
So you're pro ai datacenter?? You think llms are a disruptive technology, and not a way for the billionaires to become trillionaires?
AI is shaking up everything. My professors are constantly using it for their research to get more accurate simulations, for example. Instead of tweaking parameters for ages an AI tweaks them live while the simulation is running.
Chat bots / LLMs are overhyped and used for lots of things they shouldn't do but AI is here to stay.
One would think someone in uni would be smart enough to realise that, to a layperson, AI = LLMs / generative model.
People have been automating hyerparameter tuning before anyone knew what a GPT is. Maybe don't take that "fuck AI" too personally?
Do you think the majority of new datacenters going up are going to be used for those useful niche cases, or LLM slop that they're going to try to shove down consumers throats?
No, and they're a huge waste of ressources. We just mustnt use this as a reason to reject AI as a whole.
Maybe the people trying to cram LLMs into every single aspect of our lives should have thought of that before they labelled it AI.
I'm anti having my economy continue to decline. I can't eat your moral superiority
If I were you, I'd look up what a bubble is in economic terms. You sure as fuck can't eat anything in a data center, and when people realize how stupid this push has been to put llms in everything, you're gonna wish you put up more of a fight against them.
Holy shit. Remember the dotcom bubble. Being a bubble isn't the argument you think it is.
The.. Dotcom bubble where investors ignored revenue and profibility which resulted in a market crash and huge economic downturn? The dotcom bubble that this new ai bubble is 100x bigger than?
Tell me about some good bubbles lol.
And what are the biggest companies since then? All tech companies. Fuck this is such waste of time
Lol, good luck in the upcoming recession, pal.
If China wants to be the sole victim of AI, let them. No faster way to their destruction exists.
Except they won't. All these people using it are a lot more intelligent than you and have access to numbers and data showing benefits. You have astroturfed media you read on a pro CCP website
You grew up watching commercials
Who needs evidence when you have an overwhelming sense of paranoid xenophobia.
Bootlicking is when you don't mindlessly indulge in vast paranoid conspiracy theories to blame all of your countries problems on it's foreign enemies.
China doesn't even have to believe that more domestic datacenters is a good bet for the US. Any in fighting and division directly benefits them. I mean they wrote an entire book on this over 1.5 milenia ago.
Russia and China are very well known to use firehose of falsehoods campaigns. it worked so well for them for creating trump, brexit etc - why would they stop now?
The issue here is people being dumb enough to believe there's some intent and try to extrapolate some sort of real reality from that when it's literally just spam.
Ironic that you call me ignorant when my comment mostly agrees with you. Maybe go touch some grass.
Then it's my mistake. I found it vague and assumed you were saying it was part of that
There was no significant movement against datacenters until recently. You all still rely on datacenters everyday for posting on places like this or just using the internet in general. So this does look very manufactured and people were pointing this out even before OpenAI started talking about it. People didn't really seem to hate AI before the past few years either.
You realize that it was only just recently that there's been a huge push to a lot of new huge datacenters that need their own gas power plants because they're ADVERTISING them for how much power they use.
Yes there were datacenters before and nobody wants to block ALL datacenters, but this push is different.
Maybe because until recent years corporations didn't hoard the world computation power to run glorified chatbots.
the actual scarcity is just power, not even compute
And you know. Water.
Severe drought in much of the United States this year, and they want to use what water we have to take your job
yup, that too, but luckily evaporative cooling is starting to go out of fashion
Only because they are being forced to.
Don't speak as if they are doing out of the goodness of their own hearts...
i was just saying that it is a net positive, im not trying to defend the people building all those datacenters
Try building a PC.
of course there is a ram shortage. the point i was trying to make that way more people are affected by increasing power prices they have to pay anyways, than by computers that got more expensive.
Ai wasn’t widely discussed until these past few years because it wasn’t threatening to take our jobs then.
Of course we are using data centers for places like these, but these public forums are built for people. While the CEO of Nvidia only referred to people in his latest (?) speech as “humans”, and the only reasonable explanation would be to distance yourself from everyone so you don’t feel the empathetic pain of being the direct cause of the ram shortage.
Not to mention, the cost of producing AI generated images is significantly more than just saving and sending and receiving text and images for a place like this.
AI generated images are something you can do on a gaming GPU at home. It's not really that demanding compared to frontier LLMs and agents.