Australia wants to force cats to stay inside or give them a curfew because they are murdering so many other animals they are a threat to the country's biodiversity
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https://www.insider.com/australia-considers-cat-curfews-household-limits-to-protect-biodiversity-2023-9Open linkView original on lemmy.zip626
Comments105
Good.
Australian with three cats here - they're all indoor and happy about it because i'm not a shitarse pet owner. An outdoor cat in Australia is ecological genocide
Good, should be enforced world wide.
Along with mandatory spay/neuter. Make it a crime to intentionally avoid spaying and neutering cats and dogs.
Oh, you're a breeder? I used to work at a no kill animal shelter. You're the bane of my, and every stray animal's, existence. FUCK animal breeders.
Remember folks, adopt, don't shop. Not only is it just significantly more moral, mutts are far less likely to have health issues from inbreeding that will shorten their lives. You get more time with your four legged loved ones
And the pet stores that buy from those breeders.
I mean, if such a campaign is ever completely successful, along with one for capturing or fixing stray and feral animals, there would need to be some amount of breeding of them or they'd eventually go extinct. Perhaps with regulation on both practices that lead to unnecessary health problems (like inbreeding or breeding for harmful traits like squashed faces) and on numbers to avoid breeding more of a specific sort of animal than there exists demand for.
Maybe add a safeguard to it, so that when local animal shelters are at 10% capacity the regulation is temporarily lifted or something. Realistically, it would never be totally successful anyway.
Are you confusing 'breeder' with 'pet mill'? Ghetto breeding was horrible to my family involved in animal care and salvation. Actual breeders, though, not so much.
I'm talking about anyone who intentionally takes an unneutered male animal and an unspayed female animal and intentionally puts them together to make and sell babies. Especially inbreeders. The only purebred animal that I can accept is sheepdogs, because they aren't bred for looks, they're bred for intelligence.
All older breeds were breed for some use at some time.
Greated there are some modern breeds that are done for looks only and now care for the dogs health which I agree is an issue, but preserving historic breeds has merit.
I mean, there's responsible breading and irresponsible breeding. My mum has always kept setters of both the Irish and English varieties. The breeders she gets them aren't just pumping endless dogs out for profit, they're taking good care of the bitches.
Unless the shelters in your area are consistently well below capacity, it's still incredibly immoral
We don't really have "shelters" in the same way as the US in the UK. As far as I know passes like the RSPCA and Battersea Dogs home aren't at capacity, they don't publicise that they are. The one thing we do well in the UK is love our pets.
Good luck getting the UK on board, something like 90% of cats are outdoor cats here
Domestic cats have been in the UK for ~2000 years, and wildcats for >~8000 years.
Their only real predators in the UK are cars and dogs, and most British bird species are well acquainted with cats, and on the whole aren't at high risk. Recommendations say an outdoor cat is a healthy, happy cat.
The RSPB (bird conservation charity) doesn't find them a major problem here, but do recommend:
Which seems a reasonable set of recommendations.
On the other hand, the USA and Australia don't have the thousands of years of history of cats as part of the ecosystem, and they have all these wild dog-type-things and snappy reptile things etc, so the cats are in more danger, and the native bird species are at higher risk. Recommendations say an outdoor cat is a bird-murdering machine that's about to get run over by a giant SUV and then eaten by drop-bears.
My Eastern European neighbours think it's weird that we let the cats inside at all. They think they should live entirely outside.
So I guess "different countries, different rules".
Finally some sense in these cat posts
More than countries, different ecosystems different rules. Mainland USA and Hawaii have different ecological rules for good reason.
Doesn't the US have wild felines of some kind?
Of the mountain lion and bobcat variety, yes. Not of the small cat variety.
They've definitely got big cats (which seem to be named after Mac OS versions), though I'm not sure if they have smaller wildcats which occupy the same ecological position as domestic cats.
From a UK perspective, it seems unbelievably cruel to keep a cat locked indoors. The hunting instinct is one of a cat's main drives, so to take that away is equivalent to removing sleep or food. I understand the issues around cats and wildlife in other countries, but I think the solution is to just not have domestic cats rather than trying to imprison them.
The answer is to give them toys and playing with them
I agree, it's a cruel to keep a cat indoors than to put a goldfish in a very small bowl or feeding an animal vegan food. Unpopular opinion, seeing how fond people are about their furry killers, but it's the only real way to remedy this problem.
I think it depends where you live. Here in the UK, cats have no predators, and bird populations have survived predation by cats for thousands of years, cats mostly pick off the weakest examples. Maybe there are regions of the us where cats are not problematic as outdoor pets, I don't know for sure. I'm fond of my "furry killer" too, and occasionally she does take out a bird or small rodent, but I see it as part of the natural order.
This is the key. Just because it works in the UK does not mean it does elsewhere. There are plenty of places where cats are essentially very dangerous invasive species and are wrecking absolute havoc on the wildlife populations. This includes the majority of North America.
I do agree. I mean I came across as pretty anti-cat, but the lady I love (and therefore myself) are servants to one. I do not particularly care either way, but if I had to keep the poor thing indoors all the time I think he would be miserable.
So if one has to make regulations I'd rather vote for banning cats altogether, rather than banishing them to the indoors. It's a rather strict stance, but you cannot really expect to be able to enforce a curfew (or purrfew, if you will) on cats. It is ridiculous.
Not everywhere are cats a problem.
They are literally native to Africa and parts of Asia. In most of Europe they have been held for thousands of years and are not a threat to the ecosystems.
Taking Countries with invasive species as a global role model makes no sense.
It's crazy how it's seen as socially acceptable to "adopt" or "rescue" them and then release them to freely roam your neighbourhood as an invasive species.
Aww but lil Spencer was so happy and always knew how to avoid cars before he got run over
There are a handful of kitties in our neighborhood and fuck, they make me so nervous any time they're even remotely close to the road. As far as I know they're all housed, and the lady a few doors down to me said, "just tell him to go home and he will!" If I see him on the wrong side of the road I pick his ass up and put him back in his yard.
My cats stay inside. We've let them out on the deck (supervised) but the rule is if one single toe bean leaves the deck, it's inside time.
I know what they meant by this, but I still find it amusing that a cat in New York could pose a threat to Australia's biodiversity.
They send a lot of hate mail.
Well you see, since its owner doesn't properly watch it, it likes to travel. It even travels to Australia to go hunting.
he's a shady fucker that one.
If my dog has to stay inside my property, so can your fucking cat.
*cat owners
And I'm not sure how a curfew is going to work since that relies on cats to give one ounce of shit.
Australian farmers have, unfortunately, had to find certain methods of enforcing curfews on cats. Keep 'em inside, folks.
Curfews rely on owners, not cats.
Partially. It also relies on the cat listening to the owner when they try to get them inside. Some cats will, but most come when they feel like it. "Like herding cats" has its meaning for a reason.
Pets in general shouldn't be allowed to roam freely outside. There's too many dangers to them and things they can do to cause problems.
Entirely.
If you can’t keep your cat inside on time, than keep it inside all the time. This is 100% on the owner, they have the capabilities to stop it.
Simple, cats that are outside past X o'clock get taken to the RSPCA and they're put up for adoption after a week without being claimed.
Australian cat owner here. owners that aren't responsillble enough to keep their cats inside are deadset dickheads. the most my cat sees of the outside is our backyard when I take her for a walk either leashed up or in my arms, and even then her killer instinct is so obvious as she tracks lizards lying in the garden and such. cats are born hunters. keep them inside
American cat-directed can opener here: re outdoor cats - we have so many of the same dickheads here. We have coyotes on a nearby trail that eat cats all the time, you'd think their owners would care enough to keep them indoors but no such luck.
My cat has taken the time to break me in, he's not going to want to train a new can opener and is happy at home indoors.
Some people just don't really get the whole taking care of pets thing
I see so many missing cat flyers around my neighbourhood it's depressing, and yet people keep letting their cats outside. It's bad from just about every angle I don't understand why people keep doing it.
Cats are just doing what they evolved to do, murder everything.
Murder Everything®
They're almost as good at it as people.
At the very least neutering should be mandatory and strict controls on where cats can be purchased to prevent breeding farms and suchlike.
Im so mad with people not willing to put down feral cats, the live of a single cat is worth more than the live of the hundreds of wild animals that it will kill in its lifetime? Fucking not, but some people are delusional and only think in the cute cat pics. They say ignorance is bliss
I definitely think one pet is worth hundreds of wild animals. I even believe that one pet's happiness is worth the lives of hundreds of wild animals.
Edit:
Buy biodiversity is more important than the happiness of all those pets. Something should be done if this is a real threat to the ecosystem.
Feral cats aren't pets
I'd shoot pet cats too. I do it often actually in the country
I'm one of those dickhead cat owners who seemingly can't keep their cat inside. We adopted our cat when he was 3 after spending a lot of time on the street, and ever since taking him in, he'd constantly howl to be let outside. We tried a few methods like an outdoor cat run, but nothing seemed to work.
We've got a GPS collar (and bell) on him and he seems to just stay super local, like within 100 metres of our house.
We've started to gradually transition him inside more but it's tough. We know it's a problem, but really need help getting him to accept inside life.
That's pretty much how far most cats roam. Cats with such a small territory still kill a lot of wildlife.
Growing up we always had outdoor cats and my first cat was outdoors and the more I learned that wasn't great I tried to transition inside after moving house, I figured it would work best alongside of change of scenery and like you described she just howled at the door constantly and stared out of the window.. I gave up after 6 months.
She is ok with being in at night though so at least there's that.
Howling cats get the water gun. Spray bottle also works. You'll feel terrible but it works.
all the other animals in Australia need to step up their game
Yeah keep kitty in, folks.
Hi New York here, we will take all of them thanks.
Indoor cat owner here. I will say I think if you really want your cats to be outdoors you can buy special collars that will prevent them from killing birds. I did 15 minutes of research so this might not be entirely correct but it appears that putting a bell on them is not enough. It needs to be a special collar specifically designed to prevent them from killing birds.
Source: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/general-science/should-i-attach-bell-my-cats-collar
Won't stop them from getting themselves run over, or catching FIV or FeLV, or getting mauled by my German shepherd when they hop into my backyard. PLEASE just keep them inside.
Maybe you should keep your German shepherd indoors to stop it mauling other creatures?
Dogs need to go outside. Cats don't. My dogs stay on my property, your cats don't stay on yours. I don't want to bury any more cats, so please just keep them inside.
You sound just as bad as the cat owners
I let my dogs roam in a relatively small enclosed area where they can't hurt anyone or anything that doesn't intrude. They can't jump the fence, they can't climb trees. Cats can and do jump fences and climb trees, which is why I've had to bury more than one. It's not like my dogs went into someone else's yard to pick a fight.
Absolutely, I feel bad because people love them but they are decimating wildlife and ecosystems everywhere.
I'm surprised the cats aren't getting eaten by Australia's insane array of larger fauna.
There isn't really anything here that would prey on a cat. Australia is pretty harmless comparatively. No bears, no 'big' cats or wolves of any kind. Crocodiles are limited to the tropics and most of Australia is not in the tropics. Nothing like anacondas and cats are too quick for snakes anyway. There are sharks but they pose no threat to cats. For all the press Australia gets about dangerous wildlife it's actually a pretty chill place. The cities are pretty devoid of bugs if you live in a flat or keep your garden litter down, even more devoid of bugs since I was a kid (mostly due to massive logging in regional areas and overdevelopment in urban areas).
I would think cars would probably be cats biggest killer, especially in urban areas.
Big if true
Guaranteed to succeed. Release the pumas.
It really highlights good at being predators cats are
american police can fix it with one simple trick, pet owners hate it.
Australia has tried that with the emus already. They lost
Gotta justify owning fully automatic weapons somehow.
Americabad
Good luck forcing cats to do anything.
Generally they used to live twice as long 2 decades ago. It's more like 4-times now.
Yes, cats are not innocent, but let’s keep pretending that humans aren’t affecting biodiversity and just blame the cats. Australians are among the worst offenders on biodiversity problems and climate change, so don’t worry… I get it.
Maybe we should start by making cat owners keep their bird and rodent killing machines inside
What if the rodents are not indigenous and are more of a pest than the cats?
Cute response, but cats have cause the extinction of dozens of local animal species in countries around the world
Could you list some examples? I'm curious to know more.
https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/
It's literally not possible to be more of a pest than the cats.
Depends on the place. New Zealand has no native rodents and they are worse
Are you saying, that, because a human curfew would be out of proportion, a cat curfew is out of proportion, too?
Human petship is by extension human activity, so curbing anthropogenic influence on biodiversity loss might include blaming human pets and thus cats, when those pets contribute significantly (2B animals/a) to biodiversity loss.
Domesticated cats live long, are well fed and are great hunters.
I think the first step is to identify the full impact of Glysophates and other similarly used pesticides, particularly their roll up impacts, then we can start working on secondary effects like cats.
If you take away the cats, rats and mice will destroy 10x more than cats ever could. See Vancouver BC or Easter Island.
We can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time.
People can get crazy defensive about this stuff, and the goal posts almost always move.
First, they usually try to say that it's cruel to keep fluffy inside. (Cats haven't evolved to safely fit in MOST environments, let's be real. There's a whole damned planet out there.)
If you mention environmental concerns, they'll usually suggest of a bell or collar. (Both can be very deadly to a cat if the collar or bell catches on something. Break-away collars mean absolutely nothing if the clasp istelf catches on something, so they also aren't a safety guarantee.)
Usually, that bit is also followed by pointing out that everything is contributing to species becoming extinct.
Sometimes, I seriously wonder if some people are just trying to get out of exercising their cat. I really hope not though, because that's a horrific thought.
The thought of potentially shortening my cats lifespan is heart breaking. I would never willingly do that to a creature who relies on me like that, so I can't understand this. I'm not sure I ever will.
Yes. But we need to stop smoking, not just chew some gum to mask the problem.
Without handling the pesticide/herbicide part of the equation, you're not handling the actual problem. You're treating a symptom.
All of these disorders and problems existed before. Colony collapse disorder existed before. Bats and their white nose fungus have existed for untold millenia. Songbirds had to face housecats for hundreds of years, just in North America.
So why are we seeing a sudden and massive change to all of those things. Cats aren't suddenly more effective hunters because of climate change. Colony collapse disorder has no logical reason to be affected by climate change as weather has been ruled out as a cause of it.
It's not like they're Fire Ants who are migrating northward as winters lessen in severity, or the massive pine beetle epidemic of BC which happened because it stopped getting cold enough to freeze them to death.
For Bats bees, and songbirds, what do they have in common. Bats eats bugs, songbirds eat bugs and seeds. Bugs can be easily found around crops. Seeds are most common around crops. Honeybees pollinate pesticide/herbicide coated crops.
Hell, the biggest and most glaring thing pointing at pest/herb-icides is that barn swallow almost went extinct but tree swallows were fine. Weird how the bug eating, farm dwelling songbird very nearly died off but the forest dwelling cousin is fine.
Barn shallows are one of the most populous birds on the planet. When did they nearly go extinct??
Canada is the only country that has actually tracked their numbers in detail and has a recorded 75% loss in the last 25 years.
Everywhere else is estimating a 30% loss, but they can't provide studies backing up that limited loss.
Hard to get international numbers, but in Canada they're listed as "at risk" with a 75% drop in numbers in the last 25 years.
Internationally their numbers are listed as up to 200 million.
You realise your barn swallow example is the most widespread swallow in the world and has a conservation status of "least concerning"?
Cats killing wild animals isn't a "symptom", it's a "disease", just like some of the other "diseases" you point out. Right now you're telling us we shouldn't try to treat the "disease" that's the easiest to take care of because there are other "diseases" that are harder to take care of that exist.
They're not suddenly more effective at killing, we just suddenly realize how much of an issue they are.
House cats are very effective predators that aren't native to the vast majority of the world and we are the ones who introduced them everywhere and decided to let them roam free. Time to face our responsibilities.
It also lowers their lifespan and makes them catch diseases that they then transmit to humans.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
https://onehealth.uoguelph.ca/2022/02/28/outdoor-cats-a-threat-to-more-than-just-birds/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife
https://naturecanada.ca/discover-nature/endangered-species/barn-swallow/
Nature Canada, lists three suspected main causes for the 75% drop in barn swallow numbers.
Funny how two of the three involve pesticides.
That's one type of bird that is globally in the "least concerned" category and that lives in an environment where the concentration of cats per km is very low.
Is the barn swallow and the impact of cats in rural locations really the way you want to go about arguing against scientific studies on the impact of cat populations on wildlife in general? That's the hill you want to die on?
I know it's hard to admit we're wrong but you can also just stop replying so you stop digging your hole.
If cats want to be able to get away with killing native wildlife, they've just got to start a mining or logging company and they're all set.
Stop having kids. Beyond that you're suggesting human genocide.
I am suggesting no such thing? What I mean is that humans should start doing other things first, clean up their own shit - first reason that there are so few birds is factory farming - overly aggressive use of pesticides killing off insects, machine harvesting chopping up ground nests, land “purchase” destroying forests and animal trek transit zones. Outdoor cats come only in sight because of the one animal kind that does thrive on this: rodents, especially mice.
Owning domestic cats is a human thing