New Bill Proposed in Congress Seeks to Permanently Block All Chinese Vehicles from the United States
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a71293972/congress-introduces-bill-chinese-cars-ban/Open linkView original on piefed.zipSyndicated from the fediverse. Read and engage on the original instance.
View original on piefed.ziphttps://www.caranddriver.com/news/a71293972/congress-introduces-bill-chinese-cars-ban/Open linkView original on piefed.zip
97 replies
If you can't compete, just legislate them from the competition.
A legislative monopoly
The free market of
capitalismlegislationGood thing that we have a free market where our companies are free to lower prices, reduce investor payouts to fend off foreign competitors.
Oh wait, they will never do that, they'll just put their hand out to daddy government to block competition rather than you know, actually compete.
I'll bet when their kids run a 100m dash, they go around and kick all the fast kids in the shins so their precious crotchfruit can "win" the race.
Fuck all these greedy companies and their bullshit. I don't want America to turn to shit, but I think it's too late now. May as well get cheap cars while we still exist as a viable country.
Land of debris, home of the depraved
The invisible hand of capitalism is really fucking loud
Market protectionism? Fucking COMMIES! /s
That was the unofficial motto of US Steel
It worked for small trucks!
The Chinese government is intentionally subsidizing, and incentivizing their car companies to over produce and under price vehicles, in an attempt to take over global clean energy tech. Just like when Amazon sold diapers at a loss for several years, once all the "competition" is gone they'll either raise prices or use that leverage to gain more leverage in another sector. They've already done it with solar manufacturing. Batteries practically belong to them now. Vehicles are next.
Legislating against a hostile market takeover like this isn't a bad thing. Biden knew it. That's why he put on the 100% tariff on them to begin with. Other vehicles don't suck they way people like to think they do. They just aren't super cheep. China's are so cheep because the Chinese government is paying for half the car.
The U.S. government subsidizes the auto industry vastly more than china. It’s not some secret that you subsidize industries you want to thrive. The U.S. is just unable to compete, even without the subsidies (the tariffs at 100% still don’t bring Chinese car costs up enough to make American vehicles compete). And no, China isn’t paying half the cost. It’s like 10%. I am not going to bother looking up the source I’ve used in the past to argue with someone whose economic education involves the word “cheep”.
Can I beggar you to post the source? A lot of my opinion on the matter assumes they've been subsidizing it a lot more than 10 ish percent and some proof that isn't the case would go a long way to swaying me.
This is the only article I could find on the topic that actually compares figures for both countries (almost all the articles I saw just mention a number for china and talk about their market share).
$231B in Chinese subsidy, but that includes mining, battery production and incentives to replace ICE in China, along with proper charging infrastructure.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-21/china-s-ev-makers-got-231-billion-in-aid-over-last-15-years
Yeah, I keep meaning to dig out a video I saw on youtube that breaks down how China manages to keep it's labor costs so low. I feel like it needs to be a significant part of the discussion on this, but its also difficult to quantify the costs of restricting movement within your own borders.
$85 billion to Detroit since 2008.
Does that include bailouts from the 2008 recession? I feel like those bailouts would be a significant chunk of what the US Gov has subsidized them.
Not all subsidies are the same. US car subsidies are only about making the companies as happy and profitable as possible.
China doesn't care about profits. Their subsides are explicitly about making the vehicles super cheep to undercut everyone else. Two entirely different motivations and results.
Jesus dude
To undercut everyone else….. to accomplish what? Come on, you’re almost there.
To gain global leverage on other nations. They're looking to replace the US as THE next dominant nation in the world. They want power.
You seem to want me to say money. No. Money is nothing but a number in a spreadsheet to a nation with its own fiat currency. They don't care about money. China isn't a capitalist nation in the way we know it. They recognize that money is inherently meaningless. Resources are what matter. Control of resources is Real power.
Dude…. That’s literally what the U.S. is doing with their subsidies. Why the fuck do you think we sell fords in China, where they don’t care about trucks at all. That extension of power is literally exactly what the U.S. has done for a century, hence all the issues we’re seeing right now.
Everyone get upset when China acts like the US, but without the military invasions.
Then why do fancy Fords cost $80k and not $40k or less?
If the government is guaranteeing them money per-vehicle built, why aren't there massive lots flooded with a millions of unsold Fords? That's what's happening in China.
The US was replaced a decade ago.
I understand your point but your analogy would only work if Amazon were trying to convince the country that diapers were a sham, destroying the earth and inferior to swaddling your baby in poison ivy leaves.
I hope China continues to subsidize the fuck out of the cars and I hope the world starts buying them, Tesla goes under and my government is left trying to explain to their constituents how, exactly, petroleum fuel is still the only logical answer and then explains why we can't have a Chinese-made EV like the rest of the world.
Don't look now, but that ship has sailed. They are the global leaders in that tech. We could have competed if the dolts that put our current administration didn't lack the critical thought to realize they were being lied to about solar, wind and electric. Now, the only card the US can play is to try to block the smarter countries from competing.
You kinda have to hope they do. What happens when all the other manufactures are gone and Chinese companies start charging what the cars actually cost, or more? That's what amazon did. Now everybody with a baby is forked.
I said exactly as much. Their takeover of solar and batteries are more or less done. Vehicles are next. I'm sure they have other markets planed after that.
Fun fact: I'm not allergic to poison ivy. It was a pretty cool super power growing up.
I think I got your allergy to it on top of mine. I'm so allergic, I got something called compartmentalization of the arm and almost lost it due to the reaction to poison ivy and not going to the doctor quickly enough as my arm swelled.
Holey shit! That's horrible. TIL Poison Ivy can be way worse than a terrible rash.
Okay bro, pack it up. You've fully lost.
Lost what?
Wow that doesn't sound like anyone else I know. Nope. No other country does that. I'm so glad that our inferior products are being propped up so well. Yay America.
No they don't. They aren't cutting prices. They're just maximizing profits. China is not the same.
...you don't think the US auto industry is heavily subsidized? Like... really?
Not all subsidies are the same.
The US isn't giving the car manufacturers money per car, to ensure they make as many as possible, and sell them as cheaply as possible. The US subsidies are just gifts the the auto makers for simply having factories and saying they are keeping the industry in the US. They don't serve any greater goal.
If China wants to pay 25% of the price of my car to make it affordable for me, I'm down with that. It's more than my government is doing for me.
What'll you do when they start charging 50% more and there isn't anyone else to buy from?
Celebrate the death of the car so we can all live in walkable cities and manifest that solarpunk future we all dream of.
Do we want the death of the car? Cars are useful. They have their place in the world.
We certainly want less of them in the middle of cities and small towns. But not zero, right?
Your argument would carry sone gravitas if the US wasn't doing the same thing subsidizing the US automobile industry, except in that case the industry became bloated, complacent and uncompetitive and needed even farther protection with moah tariffs
where as while the Chinese government subsidized for sure, they ended up building a cutting edge super competitive industry building vehicles the world wants.
The Ford, Toyota and Honda CEO have said the main reason is build quality, value, automaton and robotics, they can design and build a car in months and have hardly a person on the assembly line.
https://moneywise.com/auto/auto/toyota-honda-ford-ceos-warning-china-portfolio
Read some of my replies. There a number of ways to do subsidies to promote different goals and outcomes.
The United States company is literally the hostile one here.
Remember Tesla?
Did Tesla sell cars below cost to drive out competitors and take over the market?
Yes. US' EV market nearly crashed because 90% of it was just Tesla. We don't have the same scope as the rest of the world because US' politicians are still drunk on petrol.
No. They didn't.
They were the majority of the market because they were first. They didn't drive anyone out, because nobody was there. They proved the market existed. "Created" it so to speak. In the last several years they were loosing market share each year, because there was real competition. Musk going full Rump just accelerated that trend. it didn't start it.
And thus almost tanked it when sales dried up. So it doesn't matter what they cost.
I don't know what you're trying to say here. That's not even what this is about. You're way off topic.
Tesla lost money it's first 11 years and made billions in carbon credits and subsidies.
Nearly all buisness loose money before they ramp up enough volume. That doesn't mean they sold vehicles below cost.
Maybe US vehicles should be super cheap by having the US government pay for half the car. Oh wait, the sellers won't reduce the prices, they will just siphon that discount up to the vulture class investors. Because US companies are fucking shit and don't care about consumers.
That is why they lost. That is why everything in the US is going to shit, not just EVs. Because fucking everything is about MaXimUm pRoFitS for fucking useless "investors"
Then where are giant lots filled with millions of unsold vehicles like in China? They don't exist, because the government isn't guaranteeing the value of the cars mandating their production. Because they aren't doing the same thing.
I think you're bullshitting, Chinese evs are so cheap and plentiful because of hyper competition in their local market. They are cheap again because of extreme competition. China is better than the us at manufacturing and making things cheap, it's a fact.
American car companies: “Only WE can spy on our customers”
ONLY WE can gouge our customers.
Very laissez-faire free markets type shit of them
Ugh. It has a democrat co-sign as well. Of course they are both from michigan. Kissing up to a dying industry that refuses to try and be competitive.
They actually did try, but Bidens battery valley was shut down, and what EVs they did make did not sell.
Maybe be ause they were not being competitive about it, with the pricing.
Or marketing was shit.
And it probably had some convoluted rebate system bull shit that no one trusted.
Same with solar. We had people going gangbusters door to do, in Walmart etc pushingnsolar, and rebates and blah blah, but its like, "bro, you are going door to door, pushing thousands of dollars stuff, thats questionable". And I keep hearing the wrong billing option fucks you over. If the state showed up at my door with a crane and said "we are putting solar on your roof, you won't pay for electricity again" I woukd go for it, but I am not trusting some fly by night installer tied to god knows what billing contract, sold by some out of towner in the Walmart meat department. Because everything sold by US companies is a fucking scam on some level.
its worst than that. Ford retooled their battery production to support AI
I guess I meant more of an earnest try. I feel what they did was like a reluctant high school student doing their homework by signing their name and randomly marking something in the assignment with no real effort.
I really do hate republicans, they ruin shit for no reason.
but there is a reason. You just wouldn't like it
Yes.
However, remember there's Dem support for this bill.
These pro-capitalism, pro-free market, small government chucklefucks suddenly want government intervention and regulation. Funny how attitudes change when it's not working in their favour.
The market got a little too free
Can't beat them, then just ban them.
People should buy some good old handywork from the US and A.
Because it's really funny when they have to use the shit they produce and it blows up in their face. Like the cyber truck, or every other car.
The US is pissed a Switzerland because our regulations in term of food safety are too strick and the kind dump all of their shit on ou shelves.
It’s the market regulating itself.
The invisible hand of the free market at work. /s
Wouldn’t want affordable vehicles in the US
arnt they already not in the USA due to 100% tariffs./
0 city, 1 highway...as God meant it.
This probably would've mattered back when Chinese products were still considered laughably terrible.
its usually called chinesium, when its cheaply made. but EV and other tech they can mass produce with decent quality as of recently.
Protectionism... it has worked wonders all over the world... /s
If priced the same, I would buy BYD over a Tesla. I own a model y and got to check out the BYD models in Costa rica. The build quality and battery tech is much better than Tesla. I didn't test the self driving because it wasn't available in Costa rica. Tesla self driving is barely passable.
Cuz internal combustion engines forever.
overpriced US ev cars to be exact.
Both.gif
Why would we make those when we can ban the only country actually trying to make evs
They only want American companies to harvest your data and spy on you.
Sounds like a big hassle. Have they considered just making them illegal?
But what about that Canadian company dyB that buys, uh, parts from other parts of the globe and sells fully assembled vehicles to the US market?
All automakers do that, even in the US. US lost its ability to do high tech computer manufacturing decades ago.
Excellent. Where can I test drive a dyB?
Please do so i can buy one cheaper
Back in my day we just put huge tarrifs on foreign cars to stop them from being imported. Ever wonder why you can get a tacoma or tundra in north america but everywhere else gets the hilux?
There haven't been large tariffs in the US for 100 years.
Small trucks have been tariffed out of the US market since 1964. It's the reason you all drive heavy shitty trucks with 1960s technology.
See the Chicken Tax
Great, they don't deserve them
I mean, look at the UK. They gave up every car manufacturer to foreign ownership and it's going great for them!
It's amusing reading these comments. They give zero shit for anything but the bottom dollar. Chinese EVs are so cheap because they're massively subsidized by China for economic warfare. Second they're basically built by slave labor ($200 US a month and forced to live in dorms in site) and no the cost of living is about 70% of the US so $200 still isn't shit. The battery failure rate (thermal runaway) is INSANELY higher, quite a few people have burned alive in them or had their entire house burned down. If you want one you should have to sign a waiver that they aren't liable when that thing kills your entire family while it's charging in the garage. I don't want my insurance to go up because you're ignorant.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/features/365834/should-you-buy-chinese-electric-car-prices-quality-reliability-and-ethics-explored
Sounds like every company from every capitalist country then?
Brainwashed bullshit, unless you have real data to back that up. BYD has similar safety to tesla and other electric cars.