feddit.org's Zionist bar problem: community ban(s) vote
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
Feddit.org's explanation for this situation seems to fit into a few common variations:
- They accept both pro- and anti-Zionist members, so it's not proof of a bias.
- They [choose to] comply [in advance] with strict German / Swiss / Austrian laws regarding [overly broad] "antisemitic" language, or they might get in trouble.
- Calling for the destruction of Israel must obviously mean you want to kill every last man, woman and child, rather than simply wanting to overthrow Netanyahu's genocidal fascist regime. Because [bad faith] reasons.
- Lots of Euros (and Germans specifically) are pro-Zionist, so they feel like they have to accommodate this view.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel's ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. As such, I am calling for feddit.org to:
- Explicitly prohibit pro-Zionist accounts from joining.
- Take measures to resolve their claimed legal issues, e.g., moving their server location to a less regulated jurisdiction, and ensuring that admin accounts remain anonymous regarding their location.
- Stop referring to folks who call for "Death to Israel" or similar as though they are the terrorists or violent extremists. The Zionist Israeli settlers, the murderous IDF rapists, and the entirety of the Israeli government are clearly the violent ethnostate extremists we should be worried about, not the Palestinians in Gaza who are fighting for their lives every single day against completely disproportionate levels of Zionist violence.
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again.
I've also pulled out some choice morsels from the modlog to illustrate the sort of thing we are talking about:
This one says it all... [email protected] being banned for calling out feddit.org users for being Zionist apologists. It's apparently "xenophobic" to state a few hard truths.
If you have had similar experiences on feddit.org, please feel free to share in the comments.
Voting instructions
I am proposing to ban the following communities from feddit.org, which seem to be the most problematic communities in terms of hosting pro-Zionist posts/comments:
- https://feddit.org/c/YUROP
- https://feddit.org/c/europe
- https://feddit.org/c/buyfromeu
- https://feddit.org/c/europa
- https://feddit.org/c/dach
- https://feddit.org/c/deutschland
- https://feddit.org/c/germany
Upvote this post if you want dbzer0 / anarchist nexus to ban these communities.
Downvote this post if you'd prefer not to ban these communities.
Note 1: Votes from external instances do not count, unless one of our admins has vouched for you.
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that's the better option, then we'll do that instead.
Note 3: Although I don't really expect this to happen, if feddit.org agrees to make policy changes to address these issues then we are willing to reassess the situation.
Acknowledged governance topic opened by https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/u/flatworm7591
This is a simple majority vote. The final tally is as follows:
This vote has concluded on 2026-02-17 23:16:37 UTC
@[email protected] I think the bot might be frozen, it's had issues updating the time remaining and percentage throughout the vote.
Oh I'll get someone to give it a kick.
"you should be lined up against a wall and shot"
"Kill yourself"
It blows my mind how this type of speech is being used by the op as proof that they're on the right side of things. This is so wack that some part of me wants to believe this is some kind of social experiment to find out how far you can push people on social media until they push back against the echo chamber.
But I doubt it is. It seems more likely that this mod is leveraging his position to instrumentalize this community and shape it after his own vision of political activism. All under a laughable guise of democracy. Every single vote on this instance has been presented in a biased and manipulative way that leaves no doubt what the outcome "should" be. How very democratic of you. Slow clap.
Hey, unruffled: your attempts at social engineering and radicalization are ham-fisted and painful to watch.
I initially joined db0 because it seemed like one of the more heterogenous communities on Lemmy. That there was no clear label that comes with the db0 tag like "the tankie" (hexbear) or "the normie" (world). That it had the shortest list of defederations in comparison with the other bigger instances.
Over the past few months this has changed. There has been a shift towards echo chamber, armchair revolution and increasingly more hateful language. Give it three more votes and you'll be voting in favor of roasting babies on a stick. Because free Palestine, or Zionism, or something. SMH.
I don't like being told what to think about a certain topic. Even when that view aligns with my own. And before the mob frothing at the mouth charges at me - yes I'm German and yes, free Palestine and down with Israel (preferably with not a single additional life lost).
For all instance members reading this:
"Don't worry you'll get the wall"
Do you want to be associated with people who unironically spout this type of hatred? I don't. Bye, db0
Yeah you nailed it. There’s been quite a few votes with quite a few vocal people that are just not it. I left sh.itjust.works to come here because the vibe shifted on a similar trajectory. I’ve been donating to this instance monthly since I joined, but I’m close to pulling the fucking plug on it.
Sayonara.
Sick burn bro. Never said I’d leave anyway, just that I’d stop donating so don’t know why you’re saying bye.
You realize that acting like a child doesn’t really help anyone take you seriously right?
Oh I'm sorry, I got the impression you were done with us, since you said you left sh.itjust.works for similar reasons.
I’m done engaging with you that’s for sure.
likewise.
Dude why are you still replying to me? What’s wrong with you?
Edit - Rhetorical questions, stop talking to me.
To hell with civility politics. The outrage is the mass slaughter of innocent people, not some unpleasant language on the internet. It's not surprising that people hate evil bastards.
I agree, this is the number one reason I have grown to really hate liberals and liberal apologists. When the issue is human lives you don't get to argue about someone being less than polite. Human lives are more important than the feelings of whiny liberals. Especially whiny Zionist liberals (who are often the ones invoking respectability politics to silence anti-Zionists and antifascists).
With all due respect, shut the fuck up Zionist apologist!
Two things can be at once. For example, outage over crimes against humanity and civil discussion with strangers.
I don't consider being mean to genociders as "being shitty", I consider it righteous.
They complain of users being misinterpreted, but when those users use deliberately inflammatory language elsewhere, it's not a stretch for a moderator to then interpret messages like 'death to Israel' as calling for further violence—implicitly against civilians—and taking action based on it. Supporting the genocide against Palestine is wrong, but so is calling for retributory violence against Israeli civilians, explicitly or implicitly. Their moderation problematically confuses anti-Zionism and antisemitism at times, but it's not an action they should be blocked or defederated over.
It's called self-defense. You have a right to defend yourself when attacked, even Israhell agrees with that. They just maliciously misinterpret what "defend" and "attacked" means.
Guy from the "evil zionist instance" here. Yeah no, this strong radical language should not be rationalized as something constructive. db0 mods shouldn't meddle in the moderation of feddit from what I can see is clearly language that turns the discussion bad faith. There's space for constructive discussion but pretty much none of the examples shown here are.
That's not what people are all that concerned about. Have you heard of the one Nazi walks into a bar analogy? Same thing applies with feddit.
that would imply that no antifascists should be allowed to enter the bar bc there are some nazis in there, and the bar will stay operational.
unless ur suggesting the feddit mods need to ban zionists whenever they appear, in which case, i agree.
Some even vote them into and tolerate them remaining in office I hear.
Aren't we all complex human beings at the end of the day? Oh and of course ceterum censeo Carthagine esse delendam.
Thanks for a write up that fully reflects my view on the situation. Posted this a few times: everything single topic on here gets immediately politicized - and there's only one truth on 0db nowadays.
Yeah sure, the folks opposing genocide are spreading hatred against those who implicitly or explicitly support it. Makes total sense 🤔
are u saying that these are mutually exclusive? that ppl who oppose genocide can do no wrong?
im not necessarily against insulting fascists, but i dont think its particularly effective at anything but escalating tensions. can be good at making ppl feel shame for expressing such beliefs, but that doesnt always have to be the case
"I shot your dog but it's ok because I'm against genocide"
Same thing.
You're losing and you know it
This is not a game
It's a war
I'm immediately skeptical of people who advocate for civility politics because it is one of if not the number one liberal excuse to silence dissenting views when you are wrong.
Yeah don't bad-jacket db0 users, @[email protected] made this post to bring awareness on a real issue this instance is facing at the hands of communities on a liberal Zionist instance filled with Zionist liberals. They are using respectability politics and bad-jacketing to silence anti-Zionists and antifascists which is not okay by our standards.
If you don't like that then you should get out, you obviously didn't understand what you were signing up for when you registered here. We're leftist anarchists, not liberals.
Bye, don't let the door slap your ass.
Just yesterday I had an odd interaction with an .ml user who reposted a straight-up nazi tweet, by a nazi profile, even with their own thread title resembling a frequent nazi dogwhistle. Several non-.ml users, apparently mostly from feddit, pointed out the post looks like it was posted by a nazi. .ml users responded in part by attacking their instance allegiance (calling them "whingy fedditers"). Since I posted enough clear evidence of the Twitter profile being a fascist, OP commendably deleted their thread.
What I saw there is feddit users being met with a hate boner from .ml and their correct suspicions of a tweet that looks antisemitic indeed being antisemitic being ignored and made light of.
That's my personal experience with feddit and its zionism, and consequently I've ended up suspicious of some of Lemmy users' standards regarding this whole matter.
The examples of feddit moderation posted here in OP are almost entirely sanctions against grave personal attacks. I am completely unconvinced that this is proof of the moderators' zionist positions. "Fuck you, you piece of trash" and "fuck you and your whole family" is not "a few hard truths". I'm also unsure if I get the context right, is mrdown a Palestinian? Many of those comments break the most elementary civility standards and verge into murderous fantasies.
Then say it like that? No, destroying a country is not the same as overthrowing its regime, those are different things. I support the latter with regards to Israel, but would hardly dare say the former.
This post was supposed to convince me feddit's behaviour is problematic. I come away with the opposite impression. So, I vote against the bans.
Passing Zionism and Israel as representing the Jewish People is the most anti-semitic thing there is because the actions of that ideology and that nation are some of the most depraved imaginable: portraying Zionism and Isreal as representing the Jewish People is the logical equivalent of claiming that the commiting of Genocide (including explicitly targetting children) and even participating in the running of a pedophile ring (the Epstein one, which Mossad supported) are "Jewish things".
Meanwhile there are the more traditional kinds of anti-semitism which do not taint all Jewish people by conflating them as a group with depraved ideologies and nations and instead just directly slander Jewish People for being Jewish.
And this bring us to your post: you're saying that we should overlook the actions of the first kind of anti-semite, by claiming that in us doing otherwise would weaken efforts against the second kind of anti-semite.
Your claim is the very opposite of logic: it is the first kind of anti-semite who are strengthening the messaging of the second kind (for example, under the [IMHO false] axiom that Israel is the same as The Jewish People, then the Mossad's involvement in the Epstein child-sex ring leads to the mathematically logical conclusion that Jews are pedophiles or at least supporters of pedophilia) because the second kind can leverage the depraved Israeli and Zionist actions and the link to the Jewish People claimed by the first kind to slander all Jews.
Because of this connection between these two kinds of anti-semites, in reality those fighting the former kind of anti-semite weaken the second whilst those protecting the former strengthen the latter.
And this brings us to feddit.org being filled to the brim with the first kind of anti-semite and activelly protecting them from criticism.
THANK YOU!! we have to call hate where we see it as it is. failure to do so only lets it fester and spread, making the world worse for everyone. bigotry of any kind is a threat to everyone, including people who think themselves safe from the bigotry they don't see. we have to recognize not only that zionism is antisemitic, but that antisemitism masquerading as antizionism is zionist.
to reiterate something i said elsewhere, the fediverse at large is in a good place and is self governing well. but that doesn't mean racial hate isn't on the rise in our self managed spaces. we must continue to work to encourage tolerance, and part of that is telling bigots they're not welcome.
zionism is bigotry. it is not just harmful to palestinians, it is harmful to everyone, including the people who mistakenly think it's a form of anti-bigotry
No, i'm not saying that. I described what I saw and what I roughly concluded. What you're ascribing to me is far beyond my current considerations.
So why did you feel the need to talk about the latter kind of anti-semitism in a discussion about the former?
As I pointed out, by fighting the former we are in fact weakening the latter by denying them the empowering of their "arguments" that they get from the former kind of anti-semitism, so if you worry about the latter kind of anti-semitism, it was being indirectly addressed by the demands being made by the OP.
Surely it would've made more sense for you to support what the OP is trying to do rather than go "whatabout".
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
But it is most Israeli Jews. 80% want full expulsion, 50% want complete genocide.
You defending feddit.org against for their clear examples of Zionism really drives home what I already suspected. You're not actually concerned about antisemitism as the rest of the feddit users claiming they were seeing dogwhistles. You simply support the genocidal Apartheid state.
I'm going to repeat it here: there was nothing wrong with the Tweet itself and there's no relation to any dogwhistling. I have solely deleted it because it was posted by a neo-Nazi account, as you pointed out to me.
All of the feddit.org criticism came from "Israel = Jews and therefore making a generalizing claim about Israelis = antisemitic".
Here's the Tweet without the neo-Nazi's handle for reference.
Not commenting on the rest, but the Tweet itself doesn't show anything genocidal.
It does clearly show that the current CEO of Discord is attempting to clearly identify Discord users and that the Israeli govt might have a hand in it, as they could be a potential buyer of the data.
Israel influencing a ceo to shut down anti occupation voices is pro genocide
To know that, I would have to know that there are anti-occupation voices on Discord.
And maybe I would also have to be using Discord.
But I didn't press "Accept".
Also, a tweet reporting that someone is doing something pro-genocide, doesn't make the tweet pro-genocide.
Nobody said it's genocidal.
Have you ever been to 4chan?
Maybe I have the wrong definition of "Nazi"?
Maybe. I don't remember if I did.
Nazis aren't defined or recognised just by open calls for genocide. Building suspicion of and hatred of Jews is also a commonplace activity.
That makes sense, because if you did the tweet would be a red flag.
If you deny all of the context and the intent behind it, sure.
To deny even accidental resemblance of your title with a fascist dogwhistle is flat‐eartherism that I won't waste time arguing against.
No, the criticism came from noticing the fascist dogwhistle (even if accidental) in line with the typical fascist format of the tweet. The meaning of the phrase/dogwhistle was problematised by at least one commenter before me, so you're lying on that count.
If you're talking about TrickDacy that's a known Zionist.
You didn't have to defend Feddit Zionism here because it's unrelated to my post. Yet you did, so it's obvious what your angle is now.
Can we put this debate about an obvious misunderstanding to rest already? I believe @[email protected] acknowledges that it was accidental. I don't think they have any malicious intent. And I don't think they think you have any either.
The whole point of antisemites hiding behind antizionism is to make antizionism sound antisemitic. You accidentally posted a fascists tweet. You used a very common phrase that became a somewhat obscure meme among fascists. This triggered a false positive alarm. You deleted the post because it was giving off bad vibes (and you won't see me break a lance for the fedditors reaction to that, it was wayyy off base) and antonim correctly identified it as a false positive alarm.
(edit: sorry about all the "You" sentences in the previous paragraph i don't mean be accusatory)
Their main post is about what they perceive as a knee-jerk reaction to fedditors, to which I would say it's not out of nowhere and I've posted at length about it in a reply to them.
They're not suspicous of you but why some lemmy users were ready to throw down with the fedditors so eagerly over what antonim perceived as a very clearly objectionable post.
This post isn't specifically about my post though, it's about feddit.org in general and contains many examples.
My own ban from feddit.org (which isn't included in this post) was for calling out lying Zionists that Palestine protesters "engaged in destruction of property and therefore the Nazi German government had the right to use violence against them", which was a complete Zionist fabrication.
right, but it's kind of what this comment chain seems to have devolved to. Idk, maybe I'm off base or misunderstanding something, I'm having a hard time with words today it feels like, forgot my meds as well apparently lol.
For some reason they felt the need to keep bringing up my post, a common theme with people who do ad-hominems for a certain cause.
anti-zionist jew here. my observation has been that i see the most true anti-semitism coming from .ml, hexbear (when i venture out to see what's going on there) and .zip. i see the most zionism coming from .world, sh.itjust.works, and feddit. and both sides seem dead set on saying for jews what it is to be jewish.
the most concering to me is how many supposed palestine supporters repeat the hasbara talking point that palestinians are arabian. this is ethnographically and historically incorrect. palestinians are indigenous to the levant. the jewish relationship to the land is far more complicated with most diasporadic teachers emphasizing that our role in the world and in the diaspora is to listen to and hear the workers of the world and teach them the organizational techniques that have worked for us. in essence, if there is to be a jewish presence in the levant it needs to work the opposite of how israel is doing it. land management will have by needs changed since last we were there, and we should treat the palestinians, who have been there all along, as our respected cousins and teachers. we have not been part of that land for 1700 years now. many of the foods that are seen as quintessentially jewish are eastern european in origin.
anyway.
yes.
there's so much antisemitism in the fediverse masquerading as antizionism. there's a lot more genuine good antizionism, and there's also more zionism than antisemitism (though zionism is itself an antisemitic world view), but the people spouting the antisemitism always do so with a veneer of how what they're saying is about anti-imperialism, most often from accounts who are less anti-imperial and more campist
antisemitism on the fediverse is extremely rare and you're simply conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism
Edit: removed part of comment because I'm not sure what their instance is like
k. i've reported some instances to your admins that they've agreed with and removed. i've only ever made one report where i found out i had to adjust my attitude because i'd internalized a falsehood.
just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. it means you're not attuned to it or it's getting removed before you worry about it.
I might have to retract my previous statement because I'm not sure what your instance is federated with, but at least on .ml and the instances we see antisemitism is certainly not frequent at all. Other forms of discrimination are much more common.
not trying to say it's more common than any other forms of bigotry. even said that in the comment you were replying to. just that it has been on the rise. thankfully some of the worst offenders recently recieved lifetime instance bans, though i presume they'll be back under new usernames
Other anti-zionist jew here, not sure I get where you're coming from here. I haven't gotten any trouble from Hexbear for being Jewish and whenever there's significant question over whether something is anti-zionist or anti-semetic, it usually causes a sitewide discussion. A few months ago there's was an extensive conversation over whether or not it was acceptable to use an emote of burning the Israeli flag because it has the Star of David on it. I'm not super active of .ml so I'm not sure about there but Hexbear takes antisemitism seriously.
Got any concreate example because I follow daily Palestinians discussion on lemmy. I never saw anybody saying Palestinians are Arab
It is so sad to see pro Russia anti Israel people . People can read the Wikipedia page about Israel and Russia relation the relation is basically two loving couple with occasional fights like any couple.
There is many content that is spot on on Palestine but still defend Russian invasion of Ukraine. So I have to not post it.
Shameless plug. I create this community where both zionists and tankis can spread their propaganda https://piefed.social/c/apologiafreenews
https://slrpnk.net/post/28551182/18481907
So we're clear. Generally speaking, this user has his head on right about this specific conflict. But in this particular comment they are accidentally advancing something that Israel wants you to believe about Palestinians
I agree. Many Palestinians simply are descendent of ethnic jews that was converted to Islam and was Arabized since when Arab took control of the land there was no major mass expulsion of jews
mmm don't feel comfortable with putting it this way. before ~300 when the romans cracked down on religious minorities it'd be more accurate to say that Palestinians and Jews were two groups of Canaanites with a high degree of cultural interplay. yes there are a lot of modern day Palestinians descended from Canaanites who identified as Jewish, but to say the primary culture they descended from was Jewish is another form of de-idigenization.
for what it's worth, my family is from a region of Europe that is today part of Ukraine. the way I'd describe my relationship to Ukrainians and Palestinians is we are all cousins, brothers, and sisters divided by centuries of trauma. part of why i despise Israel is they want to take my connections to my people away from me and dictate to me who i am and how i should feel about them. they want me to hate and fear Palestinians and Ukrainians because i don't live on Levantine or Galician soil anymore. but the songs i've inherited and the foods i eat speak a story of kinship and friendship, and a familial promise to meet again and share the foods and songs we still share as well as the new ones we've learned.
Zionism wants me to reject the connections my mother, her mother, her mother's mother, going back thousands of years worked to maintain and sustain across famine, genocide, and oppression. But still, it would be wrong for me to say that Palestinians are of me or that i am of Ukraine. this would be to disrespect all of our identities in our shared struggle to find the freedom we once, long ago, worked together to fight for
I see the distinction you're making about Canaanite roots, and I agree. But I think what I’m trying to get at goes even deeper than a general 'common ancestry.'
I didn't mean to generalize . When I mention that many Palestinians are descendants of Jews who stayed, converted, and became Arabized, I’m pointing to a direct, unbroken link. It’s not just that we are 'cousins' from a distant Canaanite tribe; it’s that in some cases, we are the same family that over time developed distinct identity characteristics. I think it is an even better framing against Zionists.
Acknowledging that some Jews became Palestinians through history isn't meant to erase their unique identity today, but to highlight that our roots are so intertwined they are often one and the same.
this I can absolutely get behind and is what I was driving at, too, just from a different angle.
The guy said he want ice to kidnap me and defended genocide joe. He accused me of being a nazi and pro trump when i said that trump is also a genocidal maniac. So yeah fuck him and his whole family
Murderous fantasies? None of those insults allude to murdering people
Zionism is pretty similar to nazi so both ideologies should be rejected and anybody who defend them should be banned
I don't know how any self-respecting leftist who isn't a Zionist or Zionist apologist could look at a comment like Emopunker's and think this isn't Neoliberal Zionist apologia. Take your whataboutism elsewhere please.
Edit: No links, screenshots, or modlog info on the subject at hand. For all we know this story about a fascist ml user could be made up to apologize for Feddit. Fuck off dude.
So OP posted a dozen examples, and you think they're not sufficient by themselves, and instead have to bring up an another screenshot? That's just solidifying my point.
What definition of zionism do you work with?
What is "whataboutism" here anyway? I'm talking about how people perceive and judge feddit users' comments, which has veered into blanket dismissal of their comments even when objectively justified. That's why I brought up the situation.
Well fuck you too, asshole, have you considered asking me for the links and screenshots before telling me to fuck off? I didn't post them originally because they weren't crucial to my observations. Aren't my own comments still visible on my profile, couldn't you just check there? There will be nothing in the modlog because the user deleted the thread themselves. But here are the screenshots of my own replies and two replies that I still have in my notifications, as the rest is now unavailable:
The OP posted a screenshot of the fascist antisemitic tweet that was also posted to 4chan's /pol/ with a similar caption, you can see it there in the archive that I linked. The title of the Lemmy thread was "Every time".
You can set notifications to see all of them
I was part of that thread your speaking about and regarding the hate boner against feddit_org, I can only speak for myself obviously.
I joined the lemmy-verse via the now defunct feddit_de (now feddit_org) due to the reddit apicalypse. The shit I've seen on there was vile. Not just the zionism but for example a ML comrade made repeated attempts at reaching out, he tried to build a comm and they took his reconciliatory measure of co-modding it and wrecked the comm and bullied him till he just deleted his account. The tone policing was incredible, no one is allowed to get angry or emotional, no matter how offensive something is. I think it was this fatshaming thread that got me boiling over and decide to throw caution and good-faith into the wind. (You can see it live, my username was "branchial" on there).
The casual racism against muslims (and if a fedditor comes in here saying "muslims aren't a race" so help me god) was standard for germans but seeing it spelled out it's somehow more galling. Or the fact that this is coming from what passes in this cursed country for a left. Maybe both. "Imported antisemitism", "CDU is right for wanting to ban headscarves", "Mosques are used by foreign governments to subvert our democracy and therefore they should be under heavy surveillance" are some of the discussions I had there years ago of the top of my head.
This was around the start of the west waking up to piSSrahell's evil and every anti-pissraeli talking point got put under a microscope while hasbara got a pass because the good newspapers were repeating it verbatim. Stuff like "nooo pissrael wouldn't bomb hospitals, that was clearly a hamas rocket misfiring" (it wasn't), the "mass rape" hoax is still being repeated by fedditors! The nova festival massacre is being blamed on "khhhamas" &c. you get the picture.
And in the past couple years I have never had a fedditor make me question my resolve to not bother with a good faith counter. They are so "aware" of antisemitism that they don't see their islamophobia.
Their ignorance is only rivaled by their arrogance. They are consistently the most "let me explain to you how the world works sweaty" stereotypical westerner that is marinated in imperialist propaganda but somehow thinks everyone else is getting a distorted picture despite now years of evidence of our media being in lockstep with the US state department. All of them will repeat the same lies in unison but most damning of all is the collective silence on the uncomfortable truths. But somehow the fedditors don't think this is an issue with their "free" press.
This is not true of every single individula yadda yadda but a @feddit.org behind a username is a damn good predictor of it.
With no proper segue let me also give my thoughts on the topic of antisemitism in antizionism. I belive we need to be very charitable with antizionist comrades particularly in international spaces. We can't expect an arab to know anything about western nazi's dogwhistles. They might retweet or like a tweet by "PepeLover1488" completely unironically, I don't know the .ml poster in questions background but I've seen them around enough to know that they aren't an antisemite. And so a fedditor "already knowing" that said poster is an antisemite and playing coy with how they know this is not going to be interpreted charitably. Westerners are projecting their many centuries of antisemitism onto arabs who just don't have that past. It's not the arabs fault their oppressors are jewish and asking them to be mindful of that is like pointing at the armenian genocide and asking some colonial country to be mindful of their oppressors christian faith. Zionism is a jewish supremacist movement, and any "fuck the jews" coming from a non-european has to be interpreted like "fuck the christians" from a queer person or indigenous person who is oppressed by the christian supremacist movements (and anyone trying to link them by talking about "judeochristian values" should get the wall). Here is a much better explanation of what I'm talking about.
Wonderful comment and unironical truth nuke.
Also wir_iel was a tragic development 😔
thank you and yeah it was rip to the comrade you taught me a valuable lesson about trusting anti-comms on the left.
You are expected to provide some proof of your claims as it would not be the first time Zionist apologists have come here making up stories to apologize for the Zionist behavior of mods or admins. Thank you for providing some screenshots at least. @[email protected] Can you see the post this commenter is referencing?
Please understand, after seeing a Feddit admin outright provide neoliberal talking points justifying the occupation of palestine, as well as neoliberal justifications for silencing anti-Zionists and antifascists under the guise of "complying with german law" I don't have a lot of patience for ""skeptics"" like you, who might actually mean well or who might be Zionist apologists acting in bad faith. It's impossible to tell
It is clear you don't have a very full or complete picture of the Feddit situation because our users have quite a bit of experience with Feddit users and their administration banning anti-Zionist and antifascist views either citing a flawed definition of antisemitism, or using liberal respectability politics. This includes an admin of Feddit coming here to argue with a user justifying their Zionist positions as "Just complying with German Law" and then whining when another instance admin elsewhere banned them for that.
If you think respectability politics is important even when it comes to human lives, you will find very little agreement here. If you think Feddit being critical of real antisemitism means they have a point when dismissing anti-Zionists as antisemitic bigots, you will again find very little agreement here. You really shouldn't expect people to feel warm towards your dismissive sentiment because it is the sentiment that leads to bad actors like Feddit's admins being dismissed as "misguided" or "well meaning" while perpetrating harmful ideology and suppressing the criticism that highlights that.
Are we on Wikipedia or in the court, perhaps? No, this is just a forum. You only had to ask and I would post the screenshots. It is quite obvious why I didn't post them initially (if the thread was still up I'd have linked it) - they're large and would probably detract from the point, like I'm still arguing with the guy from .ml instead of talking about a somewhat different matter here.
I've read the OP text and some of the comments. So you're effectively agreeing that all of this still doesn't provide a very full picture. Apparently I had to interact with Feddit users elsewhere enough to come to your conclusions. But I didn't, so the reasonable thing to do for me for now is to stay by my vote "against", because I can't make conclusions based on things I don't know about.
I said what I saw and how I made my conclusions based on that. I asked you for your definition of zionism, to try to figure out what exactly is the problem with the screenshot you posted and to understand your viewpoint better in general, but you haven't provided it yet. It seems you're expecting me to read minds and/or spontaneously agree with you even while you're insulting me. I can't do that.
And that's reasonable, those are two different things indeed, and I hope I haven't conflated them.
You are expected, not required. This is just a forum, discussing a serious issue.
You've got nothing
Comments in your example:
I've got a few thoughts on this.
First, its insane to me that someone could read the rules and decide anti-zionist is anti-semitic. That is either someone who doesn't understand words and has no interest in learning them, or is someone actively zionist (and supports genocide, thus the issue with zionism).
Second, I've got my complaints about what I'm seeing from the flotilla/friendly instances.
Third, there are quite a few comments there that are completely appropriate (support for Israel is support for genocide, etc), the thread about quokk.au is utterly nonsensical to me, as are the discussions in MoG (which shouldn't really be a surprise).
To sum up my thoughts.... At no point do I regret voting in support of rule 8. I am really disappointed by some of the comments I'm seeing being used as support for de-federating though, some of those are just disgusting.
Overall, I'm in support of dropping the comms due to the blatant zionist posts that go on there.
Edit: formatting fuckup, and a whole word.
I agree the mods are using antisemitism as a bit of a blanket power for abuse, but this whole post just sounds like personal beef.
Their rules look reasonable and most of their mod logs look acceptable. Some of the removed comments are over the top hate.
I never see these posts in my feed but I would disagree with this ban.
Most of the mod logs shared in this post are about the social contract of tolerance, that Nazis/Zionists have broken that contract, and that they don't deserve empathy for their views and instead deserve punishment. Many Nazis/Zionists advocate for the deaths of Palestinians, Jews, third worlders, and the like. Those people should expect to receive what they dish out. We have to be OK with bullying the bullies, and recognize the real victims.
That being said, direct calls for suicide individually rather than general statements about capital punishment for a group of people based on their specific political views is bad form. That mod log was deserved.
These mod logs though, imo, all paint the picture that these Feddit.org mods play victim while shouting for genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. Doesn't really sound like personal beef. Sounds like the right action to take to prevent these communities from growing.
Yeah honestly the amount of apologia happening towards feddit in this thread is just an example of why defederation from them is justified and necessary for the health of our instance. Feddit and their moderation philosophy are antithetical to a lot of what we stand for as an anarchist leftist instance. And their actions are having a negative influence on morale here considering people are willing to apologize for them. This means either their influence is changing hearts and minds here in a bad way, or connection with them is making our instance appealing to all the wrong people. Either way it's really not good.
I also love how acvusing someone of sucking cock is automatically homophobic. Obviously only men have those and only men do that.
'bad thing is when sex act involving penis'. is there not a better way of phrasing it without hitting people who do sex act involving penis?
i for one am pretty fucking sick of people stooping to sexual violence metaphors and 'bad man gay lol' instead of using their fucking words.
Oral sex is pretty one sided, and fellatio in particular is pretty hard on the throat. It's an apt metaphor, if you've ever tried it.
Being accused of being antisemitism is a serious allegation that can make you lose your job
My opinion is more or less that we shouldn’t cut ourselves off from big communities if their theme is not centered on endorsing crimes and if they’re not a community solely for whitewashing them / spreading disinfo.
I think a lot of German speaking users are people who have been exposed to only a narrow view of the world and that they can be valuable allies in the long run. Our instance has been relatively successful at bridging many gaps, I think it would be a shame to defederate entirely.
I’ve seen some questionable takes in places like YUROP but it’s no worse than a large enough .world thread or shjw thread.
My thoughts are unchanged since January. Strikes system for external users promoting imperialism (and the lebensrauming of me, I’m in Lebanon!) on our instance, a special text in German because of how prevalent this issue is among German people. And banning Zionists from signing up to the instance. I’m sure a fellow Arabic speaker could imagine a similar situation for antisemitism. It’s the socialism of fools after all. Surely concern trolling about women’s rights in Gaza is a sort of (subtly imperialist) feminism of fools?
I want the tent to be as big as possible. I want those who excuse these crimes to be exposed to as much common sense as possible. I don’t want them to feel like they have the mainstream opinion anymore.
With how big some of those communities are, blocking them is paramount to defederating from the instance itself in terms of losing access to posts unrelated to Israel or Zionism (a quarter of Lemmy monthly active users are subscribed to ![email protected]).
Zionism should be spoken out against, but the repercussions of further Threadiverse fragmentation should also be considered. Just as troubling are extremist posts on lemmy.ml, Lemmygrad, and Hexbear. However, if their federation is maintained with the benefit of Threadiverse unity gained (with the user retaining the option of implementing their own blocks), then what amounts to partial defederation with another major instance in this case should also be avoided.
I think the effects are being sufficiently considered, these are spaces where disenfranchised anarchists and antifascists like ourselves (I assume you are one of those if you're on dbzer0) are being silenced while our Zionist and Zionist apologist enemies are being uplifted. I do agree that we should defederate feddit.org because they elevate a lot of what we stand against, and therefore go against a big part of what we stand for.
I know that some people believe that the Fediverse should be like Nostr and should appreciate interoperability and "free speech" above all else. I don't agree with that and most people here don't either. The recognition of moderation against harmful stuff like Fascism, Bigorty, and in this case Zionism is a core part of the Fediverse today, Freedom of speech and unconditional interoperability is not.
And for the record, lemmygrad.ml is defederated because it was decided it went against what we stand for here. Feddit can easily go the same way.
So the next step after defederating the nazi scum is to look up amy communities we'd be losing access to and find volunteers with interest willing to seriously nurture local non-nazi alternatives.
We'll need to do that regardless of whether or not the communities or instance get defederated since the existing ones are extremely unfriendly towards everything we stand for, and extremely friendly towards the things we stand against.
Okay, but im barely posting anymore, so whos gonna start a thread/post to compile a list (did i just do that?), and whos gonna actually moderate these communities? These are specific tasks. Who volunteers?
I get why you are doing this, and while I can generally relate, this would shut off a huge portion of the fediverse from me. I am austrian and all german speaking and european communities are there. the loss would be significant. Lemmy already has a problem of a limited selection of topics and this would take one away,
Do Feddit users come here and harass communities here with Zionism to an intolerable degree? If not, I am completely against defederation. It is wrong in principle and should only be considered as a last resort. And that is not the case here. Most Feddit users are just average people who probably don't even know what Zionism means. But we're excluding them all. This also applies to blocking “only” the communities. If you don't like them, block or ignore them yourself. But don't dictate that to me.
I want the Fediverse to be as open as possible. People like you are turning it into a walled garden. Isolated, small, and insignificant. Unfortunately, this seems to be an incurable tendency among left-wingers.
They say they are just complying with German, Austrian, and Swiss laws. If criticising Israel is illegal under said laws, I'd rather just shut down feddit.org entirely than comply. If it were me.
Well exactly.
100% agree. Actually I said exactly that to @[email protected], and this was their response:
It seems like they're just built differently than the rest of us unfortunately. I could not live with myself if I had to enable that level of Zionist apologia that goes on on Feddit, I sure as hell would not volunteer my free time to being a mod/admin for such a place.
Sure, ban those communities. But, out of curiosity, what does an instance wide community ban achieves that my own block list cannot? I already have a sizeable feddit.org presence on said list, so I doubt I would personally see any difference.
Not a big fan of instance banning though, unless there's serious evidence of wrongdoing on our instance from their users. I'm not a wallflower that needs protecting from opinions, I can make my own mind and choose what to read and what to engage with. See: personal blocklist.
I never see pro-Zio stuff on c/buyfromeu. I don't interact much with feddit anyway, but I'm really not sure about this one.
Yeah I could agree with others, but c/buyfromeu seems off on the list.
That said, I'd probably vote for defederating whole feddit.org until their problems are solved, since it's just not a single comm that's problematic but the whole instance policy that's promoting zionism
That's a fair point. I voted down on the proposal, mostly because I don't really know how things are on feddit as a whole and the one community I do know isn't really Zionist... Not sure how /0 should proceed here, frankly.
Ok, thanks for the feedback.
I've started up [email protected] as an alternative to using anything Feddit related.
Subbed!!
Can you think of any other communities that are on Feddit which will be missed when this eventually passes? Besides the German ones I can't think of any. Unfortunately I don't speak German so I can't be the one to create or moderate those.
I agree that these communities should be blocked, however I am much more in favor of defederating Feddit as a whole and not just banning these communities. This is because it is Feddit as a platform who enables this behavior, and who ultimately is suppressing anti-Zionist and antifascist voices, while making bad faith arguments to defend Zionism. Including threatening and ultimately defederating other instances for calling them out on it as well as their admins coming here to apologize for Zionism.
The problems with Feddit run much deeper than a few communities being run by Zionist apologists. They run as deep as the management of the site itself. So blocking these communities isn't enough. I believe more will spring up in the future, not necessarily to replace them but because their userbase is predominantly Zionists or Zionist apologists.
They are bad news, we don't need them, and they clearly don't want us. Their admin agreeing with a known Zionist troll and implying we wish to cause harm to Israeli citizens just further proves this:
Feddit is bad news, more than just a few communities there, if they don't do serious work to change we shouldn't be connected with them. If anyone here really wants to be a part of Feddit that badly, you can make an account there or a server that federates with it, likewise with any feddit user who wishes to be on dbzer0.
It's funny how that first post cites a strawman (I highly doubt people on db0 make blanket statements about all Israelis, just how I doubt people on db0 make blanket statements about Jewish people or any organized community). People are individuals that seldom have intersections that align all the same within any given group.
The second post is a hypocritical neoliberal that rejects the notion that Israel exists on stolen land, land that must be returned to the indigenous group: Palestinians. One state solution, where Palestinians and Israelis have all of the same rights and freedoms, is the only way forward. Two state solution is a fucking lie used to swoon centrist liberals that value compromise above all.
I think this will raise the chances of an echo chamber happening here, and I have not seen the Zionism that you are claiming it is be as widespread as you are claiming to be. I oppose until you can convince me otherwise.
Shore up the yardarms, me hearties. We need to rid ourselves of a few fascists.
If feddit.org is harboring these ass-bags, then they're part of the problem. The issue I see with only banning the communities from showing here is that the users within those communities don't likely know they've been censured.
Playing devil's advocate for my own stance, I should say that the "right" thing to do would be to give them enough rope to hang themselves from the yardarm themselves. In other words, if they're feddit.org user and start spouting Zionist shit on db0, then they're probably someone that should be outright disallowed.
I am not a member of your server, but I think it's amongst the top 4 best servers on the threadiverse. I have a great deal of respect for your server and the communities that have come to be on it. I would advise that when dealing with a -----bar on the fediverse, be that a nazi-bar, a zionist-bar, or any other kind of authoritarian-bar, the smaller concern isn't if there's things on it your users will miss (with the threadiverse, those things are communities) and the bigger concern is how the problem figures that have coagulated in that bar act and behave when they engage with the things originating on your server. I commend the desire to do this gracefully, but if you're going to limit yourselves to blocking communities (which will ultimately limit your own users more than feddit.org's users, though I'm not sure your users will be bothered or that their users will notice), I think you ABSOLUTELY MUST plan a period of time to revisit this. I'd probably say 1 month. If next month you feel that what you're seeing on your server is improved in the way you want it to, then leave it be, and if not then de-federate.
Otherwise, I would recommend immediate defederation if this is a recurring problem. These fediverse servers all act as garden parties. Blocking communities at other garden parties is less effective at combating bad behavior than not letting people through the gate in your garden. If this path is followed, I'd recommend maintaining channels of communication between the admins of both instances for 6 months to see if and how things change.
Again. I am not a member here. More of an outside observer with a ton of respect with a little bit of input after years of being in online spaces and having very little tolerance for bad faith behavior. You can take or reject these observations depending on how you align with them. Hell, I may even be full of shit. But one of us leftists' greatest weaknesses and greatest strength is our tolerance. The strength is in that it helps us build coalitions and confront our own biases. The weakness is that bad faith actors exploit this to string us along and keep making our spaces worse on purpose, so I tend to support a relatively strict federation/defederation policy and to let users find the admin teams that align best to their own desired defederation policy.
I agree, what people who talk about the negative effects of defederation always miss is that federation with a server and userbase who is actively against us and what we fight for hurts us more than losing them would. This is why I think defederation of feddit.org and possibly a censure against them would be the best course of action here.
I do not think they will make any attempt to change their policy or their environment in a way that is mutually beneficial. In fact from my many many exchanges with @[email protected] it is very clear that they believe their opinion is the morally objective one, and they will fight to defend their position, including by making bad faith arguments against other users or siding with known trolls. They were willing to defederate from servers over those servers' censures towards Feddit, which I should add, are 100% justified at this point.
So true, tolerance is both the greatest strength and weakness of leftists. And when the intolerant are tolerated it is a great weakness that does more harm than good.
as i was reviewing the evidence i was struck by how differently feddit.org's admins act defending their positions than what works to combat hate. it's far more effective instead of just denying what others are saying about you is true, and to instead state what your position is.
Thanks for the sage advice! I'll definitely take it into account.
Zionism is just a fucked way of thinking. Nothing gives you more right to a home than someone else.
At the risk of being banned this instance is starting to get annoying with the amount of political keyboard warrioring posts. I thought this was supposed to be a pro piracy anarchist community.
For self proclaimed anarchists there sure is a lot of desire to censor and dictate what opinions everyone is allowed to see.
For fucks sake if you are that bothered by a handful of users just block those individuals. Not all of us have a panic attack when we see an idiot spouting nonsense we don't agree with.
Pro complete defederation. Same reason instances don't federate with Nazi instances. Nazism and Zionism are both just different forms of fascism.
id rather get into arguments with zionists than stick my head in the sand and hope they change on their own.
I respect that sentiment but the problem is that these communities actively suppress dissent while not suppressing Zionists. So the end result is that it means Zionists can argue with you, and they'll ban you if you argue back so you can't argue with them. Ultimately the result isn't much different than if we ban them but the benefit is that they can't argue with us.
Personally, the problem is the use of the tools of authority in those communities (moderation powers) and server (administration powers) to de facto suppress any criticism of a modern day ethno-Fascist ideology second only to Nazism in the depravity of the Violent Racism it spreads and the nation that follows it and has, inspired by it, has engaged in a Genocide along ethnic lines whose level of state-sanction depravation (for example, the active targetting children for murder in Gaza and widespread use of rape against political prisioners) are second only to the Holocaust itself in the treatment of actual human beings of the races they deem "vermin" as subhuman.
I for one would be perfectly fine with the "arguments" stage, my problem is that in feddit they have systematically leveraged the natural control powers of communities and servers in this system into a form of ideological authoritarism, worse, one in the service of a depraved ideology and the nation that follows such depraved ideals.
The active support through the use of the authority-tools of moderation and administration in that server for zionists and suppression of points of view critical to the zionists and their ideals means that this discussion here is not about "arguments" but rather it's about "abuse of authority" and in the latter domain it's logical to respond with tools in the same domain, namelly banning and defederation.
i see. still, i think this post doesnt show strong enough evidence of this abuse of authority actually happening. as others in this thread have also criticized, most of the modlogs shown here can be explained with "uncivil language/death threats" lead to bans, with likely some zionist tendencies exacerbating the issue (its a german instance after all). dont get me wrong, i understand the issue with civility politics, but a mod who bans someone for making a death threat is not necessarily an ideologically convinced zionist who abuses their power to suppress any anti-zionist sentiment whatsoever. and if the abuse of power is real, it should be trivial to show more "civil" anti-zionist comments that were banned instead of the ones that were calling for someones suicide.
if it could be shown more convincingly that feddit mods will ban any pro-palestinian sentiment outright, i might actually agree to ban communities or defederate
Frankly I don't really know if what's shown here amounts to widespread abuse of authority or at least enough to justify the measures requested, which I why I haven't voted for or against it.
My point was about your "argument" angle - when it's about moderation and administrative actions, things are well beyond being about merelly "arguments". Also I think the Paradox of Intolerance applies here: we cannot be tolerant of an instance under the control of people who use their powers in intolerant ways.
That said, I myself have crossed paths more than once in forums hosted in feddit.org with moderation actions which were suppressing criticism of Israel, Zionism and their actions whilst claiming that the critics were being racist (which is ironic in a mainly German server considering that the NAZIs used to use the very same technique of claiming that criticism of NAZISM and Germany was "against the Arian Race").
If you read other posts here, you'll see that this experience of mine is far from an uncommon experience - Germany in general is weird in that viewing people as "members of an ethnicity" and ethnic-discrimination are widespread, taken to extreme levels (when the Bundeskanzeler openly justifies giving weapons to a nation that's commiting a genocide, after they already killed tens of thousands of children, with the need to support a specific ethnicity, that's clearly ethnic-discrimination and to a pretty extreme level since the ethnicity of the aggressors is used to justify helping the mass murder children) and normalized to an extreme level there (after all, Bundeskanzeler though that the ethnicity of the aggressor was enough to justify to the public supporting a nation comitting Genocide), all of which far, far beyond the rest of Europe, so it's natural that many moderators in a mainly German server use their powers in a way they fell "protects the nation that represents a 'good' ethnicity" without noticing the profound racism in both the idea of good and not-good ethnicities and the idea that any person or nation can represent a whole ethnicity (and idea that logically can only be anchored in a "people of that ethnicity are all the same" presumption).
Personally, given my repeated experience with them I have a mental expectation that feddit.org moderators and admins are "Pro-Genocide Racists" until proven otherwise, but that doesn't mean I think we should deny other people the chance to make up their own minds on this or that those moderators and admins cannot change as persons over time and evolve to embrace Humanist Ideals instead of extreme ethnic discrimination.
As an European I'm really not used to the normalized Extreme Racism from Germany: even if all countries in Europe have Racists, it's seldom normalized amongst the public, much less such an extreme form of it that the ethnicity of the agressor is seen by the top politician of the land as a good argument to give to the public to justify supporting Genocide.
No matter how much evidence you provide to zionists they are still defending their supermasist genocidal ideology. So no just censor them and move on
Yeah ditch em. No space for folks like that.
Unsure if I'm allowed to participate here, so delete please if inappropriate.
I have always been of the impression that banning single accounts reactively to what they post is more work but also more impactful in terms of teaching people to view a problematic world view with the required precision in choosing to express their views.
On the one hand a blanket ban decreases engagement and encourages radicalization through isolation.
On the other hand would engaging with them allow people to see what precisely is a balanced take with precision to what you want to say.
You showed evidence from the modlog that exists only because people were able to engage, stopping that would reduce workload for mods but reduce engagement in political discussion.
Lastly, in this lost you went and made a more precisee statement about who needs fighting in Israel, which was encouraged by the modlog morsels. So again I ask: is that not useful? It teaches to avoid overgeneralization, which a lot of people need very much to learn.
Our German politicians for example. they, like most of our populace, react reflexively negative to anything anti Semitic. Because of our shared cultural shame around the genocide. On the other hand we see ideally politicians acting line we did back then and feel as uneasy as you do. So we do what Germans to, we find a more precise way to express what we see. Overgeneralization of redderic against Jews is bad, specification of anti Israeli genocide sentiment good.
I think it would be in the interest of your cause not to blanket ban and instead add another well balanced volunteer mod to your ranks. :)
It's only a ban of the evronationalist, Zionazi and NATO-bootlicking comms.
It still allows for exchange to happen in a non-zionazi-bar setting or in their less pol comms
Edit: after their reactions to this gov post, I believe full on defend to be the better choice TBH. They just double down instead of listening to
Guineagenuine criticismGuinea criticism? is that supposed to be genuine criticism? or is this a term i've never heard before?
It's just autocorrect having its way with my typos
Classic! That's what I was assuming but I was also like... IDK, there's all sorts of weird idioms out there in the world, and I'm always excited to learn new things
No. I have issues with how this is approached and communicated primarily, and if those are addressed maybe there is enough information to support. I'll try to keep it brief:
There isn't really any indication about what we hope to achieve with the community bans. What concrete improvements do we hope for and are we taking any steps to see if they are achieved? It reads to me like a LOT of words explaining why they are utter shit (no disagreement), but then doesn't connect any further dots, seems to just imply "so clearly our users should not see those" or something.
Frankly it's unclear to me why I see largely Flatworm proposing these lately, and little POV from the wider admin and mod team. It's no shade to you Flat, I like the cut of your jib. But this is an anarchist instance, if we are proposing rules that impact all our users, I need to start seeing a lot more broad weigh-in from the other people doing the work to keep this place running.
Now for both of these there are charitable interpretations for why I'm not seeing what I think I should. But I'm not willing to guess on that and shouldn't have to. This is frankly a totally insufficient basis, as written, for governance action. As written, I say absolutely not.
Leave my feed and default interactions alone please unless we are going to see better and wider justification.
If the admins of this instance think there are clear zionist apologia, and have proof of said zionist apologia, then I will leave it to them to do what is best. I am anti-zionist, but haven't seen these issues with my own eyes in real time.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, and hopefully, Feddit can fix the issues described here, but like Flatworm, I don't think it will happen. I don't like defederation, but as a real last resort, I trust in the admins here at db0.
Just defed them.
As a not-a-db0-member, thank you for your attention on this matter.
(yes, I get the irony)
Ban 'em. If they want to host literal genocide enabling content. Its undeniable at this point and if you are still supporting Israel you can join them in Cocitus.
@[email protected] @[email protected] Will the results of this vote also apply to anarchist.nexus if it does pass or will anarchist.nexus need to have its own vote for this?
It applies to both
Yes AN users should also vote, as it will apply to AN too. I've just crossposted it there too.
I didn't notice the instances but did run across a number of genocide deniers counter accusing everyone of being bigoted just the other day. Then playing victim when called on it, as usual. On reddit calling them on it means reddit will violate your account on unrelated posts that aren't against the rules in short order, I noticed a pattern. You can't back and forth with the influence agent accounts on reddit.
Anyway the one I talked to yesterday sure looked like an influence agent and there was a group, and a larger bloc of votes with them. I suspect government sponsored fuckery, mechanized troll divisions slumming it down on lemmy here, because somehow our leaders are more concerned with Israel having unqualified support than they are about the countries they supposedly represent. Might have something to do with them and their monied donors fucking children at epstein's place that they have videos of.
That and all of our leaders are nihlistic, they believe in nothing other than self. There is nothing they wouldn't support if it was in their interests to do. They would sell their own village out to a company poisoning their water and air if it served them. And because of all the child fucking support for Israel amongst the elite in the west, those sold out politicians naturally support them.
Defed them entirely, we don’t need to allow a ZioNazi bar here.
I'm all for banning the listed communities, although I'd candidate giving their c/buyfromeu a temporary pass given the other societal context surrounding it (finding and promoting alternatives to produces and services from the US, the other big zionist state in the list). How long a pass? Uuuuh dunno, something like three strikes or whatever.
Regarding Note 2: For the time being I am against a full instance ban, but I expect that position to change. I understand that some people want to still see them so they can "refute their bullshit" but let's be honest, when has that ever worked? We all know f.o are going to double down on their fascism because they feel they have the backing mandate (power) of a state, and those here willing to go and try "ackshually"ing them, are free to do so via an account elsewhere.
I wonder if they allow people saying you should not use this german product because it has ties with israel and occupied palestine
In theory they should at least for the first half, since part of the objective of the community is to discuss the technical appeal of given cross-European solutions and offerings. Of which, given the central focus on European sovereignty, something like "has investors / storage / data access / provision from a country not-in-Europe" should be notable.
But who knows. We'll have to see.
the thing is that u cannot know what impact it has. mainly my perspective is, i agree that theyre unlikely to change their mind, but its not a 1:1 talk. u appeal to the audience, not the fascists themselves.
therefore, if i could choose between a world where fascist talking points are never refuted or one where they are refuted but never convince the fascists, id still choose the latter.
add to this that u will never flip someones beliefs 180° in one comment thread on the internet. but this does not mean it doesnt plant seeds of doubt that will grow with time. this has worked in the past, it just isnt as flashy and immediate as we expect it to be
I've started up [email protected] as an alternative to using anything Feddit related.
Preach!
I know there are some "Fediverse growth" communities where one goes to announce new communities, might be a good idea to do so?
voting to defed the instance, we should not tolerate any instance that actively chooses to harbor fascists, and the admins seem to largely agree with the decisions the mods of these oomms made.
our anti-zionism rule follows the same fallacy, as anti-semitism laws in many european did: it is too narrow and too broad at the same time.
it is too broad in a sense that we talked about banning problematic users. now we talk about banning communities, which cover much of a language. dach is a big collection bucket for europeans speaking german. in their sidebar they mention, that they want to keep palestine / israel discussions out of the comm - which is fair play IMO.
it is too narrow in a sense, that it is hyper focussed on one issue. zionists are bad and commit atrocities, which need to be harshly reprehended. but there are many bad things, which do not get caught by this rule. as an example: what happens to the uyghur population in china is simply not ok. still .ml is an instance, which quite openly denies that anything even happens. yet we are not discussing banning accounts and or communities, which do these things.
i would much rather have an anti-discrimination rule, which covers zionism, racism, sexism, discrimination on hair colour, medical things, ... this rule should also define what actions we can and want to take again who and what.
this would cover more problems, while not excluding anyone. hopefully also reduce needed arguments.
Although I don't have the time to research the communities we're proposing to ban from feddit.org, I'm glad we're targeting communities first based on evidence rather than banning entire instances outright because of our intuitions.
Wholeheartedly agree that we should isolate Zionists though. Fuck em.
As for the future, I agree that we should consider re-federating with these communities if 1) they change their policies to prohibit Zionists and the other points OP mentions, and 2) they show consistent mod logs that adhere to those policies, seeking deplatforming of mods that fail to apply compliance correctly.
Edit: instance-wide policy changes would also go hard, as others have said. It's in our interest to notify anti-Zionist users on Feddit.org that their instance safeguards Zionists because we're looking out for their best interests. Cutting off complete contact can shake things up enough for anti-Zionists to recognize why there is a defederation/ban. If we ban just the communities, then we won't have as wide of an impact.
Curious to have the debate with other db0-ers
Edit 2: we could also consider completely defederating from these communities, then doing temporary protest defederation bursts with Feddit.org overall so normies over there get notified of our reasons for defederating on a frequent basis. Defederating from Feddit.org although one time will have a short term effect of informing the people there. Regular (or irregular) bans for defined periods of time can offer more chances of visibility and lasting impact, while upholding the Fediverse and staving off mass fracturization.
We need to defederate with a censure against Feddit.org, just like quokk.au and a few others did before. They absolutely will have a negative reaction which will make people there aware of it, they've reacted poorly to this type of thing before.
I forgot about that instance after they did their "compliance" requirement against free speech lol.
Who needs Zionists messing up the joint? Not me. Defed 100%
Ban anyone trying to foster a purely pro Zionist point of view
Just want to point out that in my experience, outside Germans the "Euro" public are generally against what Israel has been doing in Palestine. Those more politically aware who know what that is are against Zionism explicitly.
The exception is of course for the Far-Right types who, of course, love the whole white-colonialist thing.
IMHO:
Germany has massive issues with still holding hard to the mental framework from the "good old days" were people are just deemed members of etnic groups based on things they were born with, and are treated above all based on the ethnic group they "belong to", rather than Modern Humanism were people's deserved treatment is based on their need and their actions.
Because of this profoundly backwards Prejudiced and Racist foundational element of moral thinking widespread in German, it was a lot easier for the ethno-Fascist Zionists to subvert guilt in Germany into support for Zionism and the Zionist Genocide, as well as cultivating Islamophobia.
The same backwards moral fundational element also explains the ease of expansion of AfD and their ideology in Germany.
Not to say other countries in Europe don't have Prejudice, Racism or even support for 19th century style white-colonialism, just saying that Germany seems to have a far more insidious problem than most in that regards due to this specific foundational piece having been repeatedly reinforced in the broad political discourse in Germany even while in other countries in Europe openly singling out people's ethnicity and demanding ethnically-discriminatory treatment (either "positive" or negative) was frowned upon.
Just want to point out that I don't at all think all Germans are like this.
Not even close.
My point is that this kind of thinking is more widespread and normalized in Germany, were it's constantly pushed by the Press and Politicians of most colors (which is why even the Greens were pro-Israel during the worst of the Genocide in Gaza, unlike any other Green party in Europe)
Im not usually a fan of defederating over differences in moderation. Frankly, I dont pay attention to their communities because they're the next most libbed instance next to .world or piefed.
I guess im alright with it if that's where the vote takes us, but I honestly dont find them threatening. They've backed themselves into a corner by hitching their wagon to Israel, and i think they're so outnumbered here that they've basically ostracized themselves anyway.
Defederate from Feddit.org, enough is enough!
Side note: @[email protected]'s obsession with us and this thread from outside is so funny. I've never seen someone seethe so hard about being banned from an instance. It's also very funny because they clearly have no idea how instance bans work since they keep replying here but get no response. Their comments aren't federating anymore because our instance rejects them upfront (that's how instance bans work).
I don't know what they hope to gain by being a troll and bad mouthing dbzer0 admins. They're certainly not going to get amnesty for doing this. If anything they're just proving @[email protected] and the rest of our userbase how much Feddit is bad news. Some of Emopunker's posts could be considered incitements of harassment at this point.
Don't forget how Goat is incredibly bad faith and actively sharing the link to this community, and said that he has no place moderating user actions to what they say and do.
And weirdly accused me of being an alt of someone because he doesn't understand that multiple people can think he's an asshole.
That's a great point, it feels a lot like both goat and actually emopunker too seem to be inciting harassment towards us and this community by virtue of doing that. Whether they admit to that or not. That is ultimately the result of their actions. I saw someone else get harassed seemingly because of the rubbish they are posting.
They don't want consequences to their actions. They are allowed to explicitly state racial slurs and hateful statements, but if you call them out it's censorship and you hate freedom.
MoG is filled with that kind of people. And I'm sure we're being read by goat so his friends can totally not harass people to their left.
I have no say in governance decisions here but for context, I have all of feddit completely blocked because I could not tolerate the bullshit that came across my feed originating from that imstance. 🤮
I would suggest members of db0 vote for defereration in spite of the implications for the network.
I never encountered Zionist trolls. Are they really that common? But I enjoy ich_iel so after a defet, I might use a different account more often.
If this defed happens, I unfortunately have to migrate to another instance, as basically all of the German communities are on there. As a German I enjoy c/ich_iel and other communites on there a lot.
Ban zionist existence!
I don't get it, what does banning communities on other instances achieve? Does that mean that we won't see them?
I'll sit out the vote itself, because I don't have enough personal interaction with Reddit to form an unbiased view of their workings.
That being said, I'm pretty cautious towards the idea of defederation; if the issue primarily stems from those communities, I'd prefer targeted bans. Otherwise, we're only shutting ourselves out as dissenting voices, which only leads to more of an echo chamber effect on feddit.
Don't hide from those who need confronting.
Issue stems primarily from not just the communities but the site's policy and its management. These are just the most active communities there and therefore the ones where most bans and removals happen. Zionism is a problem with Feddit's whole userbase, and their administrators support and allow it.
Which is why the suggestion of defederation is also on the table as well. I've already given an example of Feddit admins acting out against our instance values in other comments but suffice to say that doesn't inspire confidence in the integrity of the instance.
They could be shutting us down on their own end as well, so it's not like we owe them being available for comment (that they'll disregard nonetheless).
Agreed, I am principally opposed to silencing different opinions, vile as they may be. It only exacerbates the problem.
Pro russian occupation get their posts and comments removed all the time while zionnazi ideology is allowed
That's a fair point.
Death to zionists!
Fuck feddit.org for allowing these fascists.
Oooh they're German? say no more.
Actually with their response to this being even more Zionazi bullshit, can we please just defed?
voting to defed the instance
I'm for a defed.
I concur with those calling for full defederation. If they see the error of their ways, we can refederate.
I don't see that happening anytime soon as the instance mods are more than happy to use Germany's bad laws to shield their own racism and fascism.
That's just, your opinion man⸮
From experience in various German online forums, I'd say that it's very typical to see "anticipatory obedience" in all regards, not just relating to "Volksverhetzung" related topics. Seems to be a cultural thing.
Here, I'm purely referring to the instance-wide post about the admins' stance on policy, not to any of the cited mod actions which may or may not be seen as apologetic to zionism.
However, I don't agree with the blanket attribution of this behavior to "racism and fascism".
Can someone please explain why say feddit.org/c/europe is on this list?
I might just not get it, I hate zionists and fachos like you all, but the sub seems just to be very europe centred? Is it a general problem with feddit.org?
I mean I haven't cast my vote because I don't feel like I understand things well enough, as I said, fuck fachos & zionists, but I don't see traces of them there? What am I missing?
Get rid of them please. Defed completely
What would we actually be losing in a full instamcd ban?
Im more interested in getting zionazi users off.
Edit: off my feed, not... Fuck
Aside from objectively losing access to the communities there not really much, especially considering they ban anyone who goes against Zioninist apologia either for "antisemitism" or they use liberal respectability politics as the excuse to ban them or remove posts.
What we would lose for sure is Feddit users Zionism and Zionist apologia leaking into our instance and we would get no more Zionist apologists from their server coming here to apologize for it and justify it by saying it's "gERmAn LaW".
Really we benefit greatly from it by not getting any more of their Zionism.
They lose quite a bit from it (assuming defederation). They lose access to all of our communities on their instance, none of our users will see their replies, votes from them get bounced as well. If we also do a censure (if we go through defederation I highly recommend a censure) other instances might defederate them too, especially because dbzer0 is very trusted in the space.
Basically they lose a lot more than we lose from cutting them off, and I think it's for the best honestly. Anarchists on Feddit benefit more from being here than they do being homed on Feddit where the Zionist admins can ban their whole account so badly they can't even login because they said something that goes against Instance Zionist policy, or because they didn't follow liberal respectability politics.
In their defense: it has never in history been morally defensible to disobey german law.
It is always morally defensible to disobey unjust law. It's literally the point.
Yeah but... german law in particular. Disobeying that has never been reasonable, has it?
Have you ever read a History book?
whoosh?
Isn't that an e-bike brand?
No, and im reporting you for dog whistle suggesting that i read or touch a book. That is a violence you have done against me.
Only if you count the time since right after WW2 ended. I would say it would've been morally defensible and even admirable to disobey the Nazi's laws even before they attacked poland in 1939. Even if people at the time didn't know it.
But yeah we're in a brand new era. Another one where german law isn't so morally right anymore.
Ow.
That shouldn't happen for dbzer0 users, it's only meant for external users.
Actually that's also the flair for /0 users who haven't specified any flair
Oh I see, I thought flairs were assigned largely automatically based on application questions or based on whether they're vouced and/or donators.
Can i get a 'user' flair?
I don't see why not, you'll have to ask @[email protected] or @[email protected] I have no idea how it's done I didn't (or don't remember) doing mine.
Which one(s) you want?
My first comment on platform, supporting this ban
Usually i'm passive and value balance but seeing how all world is going past 6 months i've never been more ready to take hard stand and actually make any dent i can, this is far from enough
defed.
Defed.
uh. ok. fuck me, i guess.
You're free to make an account elsewhere to participate here, and we're happy to have you if you wish to sign up here (unless you're a Zionist in which case you'll find yourself out on your ass before you can finish the word antisemit-🚪).
Also the current vote is about banning just those communities, it's likely Feddit won't be blocked entirely unless something else happens or enough people suggest it.
Shared a meme about the whole situation in Fediverse Memes but apparently it stung a nerve somewhere (can't imagine why), so, 'm sharing it here. Might make a post in another adequate meme channel later if I find one.
I would be opposed to full-defederation, since there is still a lot of good users on feddit. I think removing those communities is a good middle ground.
Have not been here a long time so I'm not familiar with the present day drama but I am the founder of [email protected] and was here when that drama was going on. And for that alone I think de-federation or at the very least banning these problem communities is the right call.
I am in agreement with others that the examples here aren't great, some of these do look like aggressive trolling or very aggressive. And if I saw it in my community I would probably remove those too (though I might not ban the people, at least not permanently). Of course I would ban the Zionist apologists completely, and I have in the past in my communities, and its clear feddit isn't doing that. I'm not saying that people are wrong to feel that way, I feel the same way about this bullshit (why I started a Europe community on here), I just do understand why some of those comments were removed. That doesn't apply to all of them though and some were undeniably removed in defense of Zionist apologia.
I hope I don't come across like I'm saying Feddit is right to do what they did, because I don't think that at all. I think their actions are disgraceful and I think they were disgraceful back then too. They might be even more so now since if I'm reading right these were done by an admin this time.
If we ban then, no one from here can see or refute their bullshit.
No one can really refute their bullshit anyway, they ban anyone that tries, or just remove the comments as "antisemitism".
Can you provide examples that wouldn't be easily interpreted as trolling or personal attacks in any other context?
The ones cited here are just that to me (if you replaced the underlying talking points with, say, quilting). I wouldn't have an issue with moderators removing bad attitude/faith content in these cases.
Defed, definitely.
banning the communities is a no-brainer (yes); we already have a ban on pro-Zionism. (I do wonder how ![email protected] is involved in all this though; I found absolutely no mentions of "semit" in the federated modlog and I'm too tired to visit the original modlog rn.)
but I'm really unsure about banning the entire instance, as many here seem to suggest. you have convinced me that Emopunker is clueless at best and [REDACTED] at worst, but I would want to see more evidence that this has created a problematic user or moderation culture than some actions of one admin and one mod (plus one user ban without context performed by another mod). three quarters of the screenshots here deal with removal reasons like saying "fuck off you piece of trash" and editing the headline that just happen to be applied to anti-Zionist content. maybe there's some context of discriminatory enforcement i can't see here, but "choice morsels" should really show the best evidence we have.
i think we should make a separate thread with said stronger evidence to decide on the instance ban.
(p.s.: as a Wikipedia editor I am also very fond of the "Give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves" argument mentioned)
And how much rope is "enough rope"? It's 2026, I think we are way past that point.
not exactly what the expression means. rope means we wait for them to commit the offense and then ban, in this case prozionist behavior that’s instance-wide or widespread among their users’ comments on our instance
I find it extremely unreasonable that strictly anti-zionist grad is defederated, while feddit.org with its pro-zionist administration (not just some users) has to deal only with half-measures like defederation of a few communities. And i'm not advocating against defederation from grad (since this wasn't an arbitrary decision of db0 admins but the result of the governance vote), i'm advocating for total, instance level defederation from feddit.org.
I don't see why we have to limit the reach of our community to keep it safe. How does the nazibar parable apply? Isn't this just censorship with a mighty dose of virtue signalling?
I'm subbed to c/europe because that's the most happening European sub. I'm more concerned the place is being overrun by guardian posts than any type of fascist apologia.
I don't know if I have a vote, but a big nay from me on this one. 🐎
We couldn't make it to a nice round number, no.
Are our brains getting worse, or why can't we be specific anymore?
Why do we need to use the same language as extremists?
This is the same stupidity level as Trump saying "We will get rid of some politicians, you will see!!!" and later explaining that it means that the people should just not vote for them anymore, because he is great.
Non-db0 making a non-voting comment:
Careful now, or you'll provoke some people that stand with Epstein!
Israel is real?
oops all zions
also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHAitSKtVs
Congratulations you are both. Someone who defends the zionist colonial project is a zionist pretty simple stuff really.
I asked a question on how Arab Israelis are treated as second class cirizens and all I've gotten back, from multiple people, is insults.
How very moronic of me to make an effort to understand people's point of view, I should just tell them to kill themselves. 🙄
I have linked you a video detailing some of the ways apartheid in west palestine is held up and mrdown also had a couple links sent to you
https://lemmy.ml/post/42861305/23880445
you just want to close your eyes and ears at the people presenting facts and instead feel righteous when they're being rude to you because you don't engage with the topic at all.
I'm not wasting time watching a stream of YouTube videos of tangential relevance. You can just tell me in your own words if you know the answer. Should be easy, right.
Edit: I also have no replies from anyone called "mrdown". I don't know who that is.
I linked you and sorry for not having the time or patience to type it all out. I linked you the reply by mrdown I meant even dunno what else you want.
Also why would showcasing how arabs are treated as second class be easy in an internet comment??
Here is another article because I remembered Desmond Tutu calling what palestinians face apartheid. https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinians-pay-tribute-desmond-tutu
but the video gives a rundown of several ways in which arabs are systematically discriminated against. You literally refusing to watch it is not my problem.
The correct term for you is ZioNazi.
Also fruitcake, moron? You sure love to use slurs.
I think Feddit.org should probably study and read socialist theory. Seriously! https://redsails.org/
ok, this does not say anything against that site because I clicked away immediately after, but seriously? Althusser? The guy who killed his wife and then justified it by going on a long freudian rant about how his mother raped him by telling him he was a man? That Althusser? There is noone else that had similar ideas they could pick?
What?
— Althusser, L'avenir dure longtemps
(check out the odium symposium episode about it if you're curious)
What
the bot replies with your user flair. This means you have mentioned you were an anarchist when signing up
Oh no, feddit.org don´t allow me to wish death to people because of their origin. /s
Feddit. org defend a supremacist ideology similar to nazi
But being a Zionazi (apologist) is A-OK apparently?
whataboutism
peak G*rman slop, good job! 👍
Da du ja auch deutsch bist, ist dieser Kommentar ja Bombe. Und da du für die Deförderierung gestimmt hast, hoffe ich dich nicht mehr auf feddit anzutreffen.
🤡😭😭😭
The three wise monkeys are doing Sippenhaft now?
Great, let's not have any pluralism on a federated discussion platform. Way to make a stand for a world of peace and mutual understanding.
Maybe if we build a big wall around people we don't like, it sure went well the other times in the last 70 years.
Israel is the “worst” in this scenario because it is outright committing a genocide and doing it with international support.
Iran and Afghanistan aren’t getting that pass, Dubai/Qatar situation similarly not getting a pass.
Country doing the genocide wins The “who shit the pool hardest award” rn
.de
Good catch, I don't have much experience with discuss.tchncs.de, so I can't vouch for them or against them. However I do notice they have the same clause in their rules that Feddit uses:
Which is reasonable to include for a German instance. Whether this means they accept the IHRA definition of antisemitism, or more importantly whether they accept and tolerate Zionist apologia is a different story. And just because I haven't experienced or heard about drama from them suppressing anti-Zionism or anti-Zionists doesn't mean it hasn't happened.