Tesla reintroduces 'Mad Max' Full Self-Driving mode that breaks speed limits
https://www.engadget.com/tesla-reintroduces-mad-max-full-self-driving-mode-that-breaks-speed-limits-190659583.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world615
Comments271https://www.engadget.com/tesla-reintroduces-mad-max-full-self-driving-mode-that-breaks-speed-limits-190659583.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
you, too, can die at the hands of AI and become forever enshrined as algorithmic data to help improve Tesla's subscription services sales to the very wealthy and hostile
Yep. This is inevitable. Whenever we get to the point where consumers are controlling the aggression of the self driving, which will happen no matter laws are past.
Ultimately it's all just code on hardware.
Tesla is definitely doing their fuck around, still waiting to find out on this one. Eventually that liability will catch up with them. The question is months, years, or decades.
Because now it can hurt others going even faster
Maybe it comes with a "scape the police over the border" bottom.
Since it's Elon more likely to go directly to the police station
The less time you're at the cars mercy...
Because there are levels of unsafe and this is more unsafe
I mean, yeah. True. But to push back a little, driving at the actual speed of traffic is often safer than driving the official speed limit.
The real world and written law don't always line up, the speed limit is one of those areas.
When a self driving car breaks the law, the CEO should get the demerit points on their own licence, and if they lose their licence, the cars can't drive anymore.
That would be funny but better yet, the entire line of cars gets the feature deleted from them and customers are reimbursed the entire value of the car plus interest in exchange for having risked their lives testing an unstable and dangerous vehicle.
bail out the idiots that bought cybertrucks?
eehhhh.....
This hurts Tesla more
The second one of these cars cause a fatal collision due to wanton disregard of the law on part of the CEO, he should be held criminally liable.
That has already happened…like a handful of times at least.
Tesla drivers have the highest accident rates. There's already thousands of civil lawsuits. They should have prosecuted him years ago.
Somebody needs to be responsible, otherwise ban self driving until someone figures it out. Impound the vehicle if need be.
What? You can't just demand accountability from AI bros, that would destroy their whole business model.
They shouldn't even be able to market it as self driving if they don't insure the self driving mode itself.
Man, holding the company financially accountable for all traffic violations would be magnificent.
It's a shame we're too stupid/weak to pull it off.
CEOs like you're talking about, they dont drive.
the only time they'll step behind the wheel of a car is for a pleasure cruise in some multi million dollar supercar on a track, or a closed / private road.
So what? Them driving is not relevant to this at all. The idea is that the cars they sell become illegal.
Just because Elon is above the law doesn’t mean you are, even if you’re in a Tesla. Good luck.
Even if you’re just minding your business when a sleeping pilled-out middle manager from Subway corporate plows into your 98 Corolla in their Tesla at 100 mph leaving your family without a father and source of income because a billionaire nazi who's constantly off his nut on ketamine decided rules are stupid and don’t apply to him and the entire societal structure designed to prevent this from happening has been hollowed out by incompetent bigots who absolutely rate high on the sociopath scale because nazi media has ensnared 51% of the population and now you dead.
I agree with you but may I offer you a comma in these trying times?
They're optional
can it be my old shitty 94 ford tempo instead i really hated that car
Take a breath, dude.
Edit: lol at the downvotes. It's just a gag about the lack of punctuation on a comment that I otherwise agree with.
They're correct, though.
Yes.
And now you dead.
I’m not sure what this system does, but my non-Tesla car can adjust its intelligent cruise control by speed limit signs it sees, and you can tell it to have a buffer. Mine is set for +5, so if the sign says 45 miles per hour, the car drives itself at 50 mph.
If it’s something like that, which you set yourself, it’s probably fine. Just know what the police in your area enforce. Where I live you can generally go five over without an issue, ten over on the freeways. Everyone does this, so if you go the speed limit you end up annoying everyone.
So dumb that society collectively agreed that 35 means 40, 40 means 45, 45 means 50, etc.
There’s a little more to it than that. They also need to consider that, in cars with an analogue speed dial, the actual speed is not displayed precisely. Plus, there may be minor discrepancies between the speed dial and the actual speed, which can be affected by non-standard tyres etc. So a small “buffer” in acceptable speeds is pretty reasonable.
I recall being told by someone at a Mitsubishi factory that car manufacturers actually intentionally set the speed dials to be slightly higher speed than reality to accommodate for people’s need to break the rules just a little…!
Can confirm the last part.
Almost every car with speed control set to, for examole, 50 kph was metered at 45kph on GPS.
I was also told it's about the calibration of the radar guns. They are calibrated to -7/+0 meaning if you are going 47 mph there is a chance you are picked up as going 40. That said if you are going 41 or 42 there is a good chance the cop picks you up as going less than 40.
That I understand, but as the person I replied to said that I hope you read, people intentionally go 50 in the 45.
So the grace window you mention is irrelevant; you'd be doing 51 in the 45.
In Germany there are speedtraps everywhere.
No bs cop on-site decides, that today you have chosen a bad day.
It makes us feel like we’re speedy little rebels. 🤣
But then why don't we all shoplift packs of gum every week?
Speeding is the one law everyone agrees is fun and acceptable to break a bit, despite being more dangerous than many actual crimes.
Because when the road is built for a safe speed target of 65, then the limit is set at 55 instead, yeah you get people who are breaking the legal limit but not the actual safe speed.
Edit: forgot a link: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/design/standards/151007.cfm
tl;dr: design speeds and speed limits are not necessarily related. "Selection of a posted speed is an operational decision for which the owner and operator of the facility is responsible."
Where I'm at, they're trying to do that plan where they lower speed limits and change the roads to reflect the slower speeds with narrowing, or bikes lanes, or speed bumps etc to reduce car accident deaths, but they ignored the entire part about changing the roads to reflect the new speeds, and just lowered the speeds.
So you got these 4-6 lane roads that were designed for 50km/h and now they're 30-40km/h and absolutely no one, is doing the posted limit, at the new 30 areas, not even cops.
All I can come up with is now if you speed like people may have before, you're really over the limit, so it's easier to ticket someone? Like before people might have gone 55-60 in the 50 zone, but now going 55 is well over 40, and impound level over 30.
Do you think that every or most roads have the wrong speed limit? I sure don't.
If everyone is speeding on a road and not constantly getting into accidents does that not indicate that the posted speed limit is incorrect?
If it didn't, it would be pretty damn annoying as cars always show higher than actual speed. I've had to set our BMW to do +8km/h so that it actually does 120km/h on GPS and not 112.
Although that is true, your car is quite extreme in that regard. In Germany cars are not allowed to deviate by more than 3kph at speeds below 100, and 3% at speeds above 100. I doubt BMW uses different speedometer for cars sold in foreign countries so I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with yours. Maybe you installed smaller diameter tires than from factory?
Hmmh, could be, though both are "from the factory", the winter/summer tires are slightly different sizes. But the allowed error in the EU overall (or at least in Finland) is 10% +4km/h, so it's still well withing "spec".
Are your tires fully inflated?
This is kinda dumb. So they have to adjust speed limits below safe levels so you don't get over it?
I've driven by a few radar speed indicators in my car, and I'm consistently going 4 km/h less than what my digital speedometer says, regardless of speed. I find it difficult to believe this is an accident. So if I had your vehicle and it behaved like my speedometer does, I would still only be +1 over the limit. Also, I now drive with my speedometer +5 to +9 relative to the speed limit, which keeps me more in line with the traffic around me.
the cow catcher i put on front? with all those "decorative" bones and limbs in it? why yes it's purely cosmetic and is not at all indicative of my premeditated intention to FSD through a crowd.
slips the cop a hundred, or five
"enjoy your trip, carry on"
Go kiss a concrete pillar, ya duds
Why do we continue to allow this company to exist and break the law?
Corruption
Money
By these powers combined...
Texas
They finally did it. They automated crime 👍
Adaptive cruise control is good enough for most people and has been a proven technology for 20+ years. FSD is just downright dangerous.
I like my car’s version that’s just adaptive cruise control combined with using lidar maps of major roads to do lane-centering. I can go on a road trip and not touch the gas, break, or steering wheel for hours, but I have to drive it myself through residential neighborhoods.
what type of car? my outback isn't bad but it's not quite that good, especially if there's a stiff breeze
Cadillac CT5
They’ll even pass slow cars then get back over.
And none of that “touch the steering wheel every few min” stuff, but it uses infrared pupil trackers to make sure you’re mostly looking at the road and not sleeping.
The idea of infrared pupil trackers is terrifying.
Imagine the tracking potential for insurance companies, law enforcement, etc...
I know this is offtopic, just the first thought that comes to my mind :(
Googley eye napping.
yeah that's definitely going to be a bit higher spec than my Wilderness lmao. The Outback will maintain lane and do centering but does not like even moderate turns, roads with questionable paint, or gusty conditions. It's great for highway use and it definitely won't pass other cars for me, but it will take me pretty far off the beaten path as long as I'm not trying to follow a jeep. Hell yeah, sounds like we've both got solid cars that fit our needs.
This is good enough imo!
Now trump is black bagging US citizens in broad daylight, and Musk is an immigrant who fully admitted that he originally entered the country illegally. The danger must have creeped its way through his ketamine addled brain.
Musk also has a private army of security contractors (and someone like him probably has mercenaries off killing people in other countries too)
he's far too much trouble to go after, if you're DHS, regardless if you're Trump DHS or Democrat DHS. someone like that is ungovernable.
I can promise you he doesn’t even think about that.
He’s busy with his little Internet cult right now and I’m assuming some other malicious bullshit to fuck us with.
He didnt buy ihs gold plated visa?
Maybe while he was doing the DOGE thing he changed his status.
"that breaks speed limits" can be ok.
I have seen a number of US interstates posted at 55mph, when traffic moves at 70-80mph. Being stuck at 55mph on those interstates is dangerous.
The fact that this FSD mode comes with “more frequent lane changes” means it isn’t just keeping up with traffic. It’s designed to go faster than traffic. Stop making herr Elon’s points for him.
I do aknowledge that's always going to be the problem when we have the human + AI driver combinations.
Safest hypothetical is 100% AIs that always follow the same rules... next safest is humans that break the rules, but in a context aware situation (IE everyone going 70 in a 55, is safer than 1 car going 55 and all other cars going 70).
Real danger though is if the AI doesn't make good judgement calls when doing so. IE rather than deciding based on how fast other cars are going, it's primary determination is whether the user says they are in a hurry, leading it to sometimes be the one car going 55, but if the person is in a hurry it may be the only car going 70 on a road everyone else is going 55.
It’s not speed that kills. It’s acceleration. Everyone doing 70 means nobody is an obstacle. But one person doing 55 in that situation is effectively a rolling road block. Even if they’re not hit by someone else they’ll cause accidents as people change lanes to get around them.
“It’s not the speed that kills”
Yes it is. It’s the speed and the weight.
The impact force doubles from 55 to 70. That’s a spectacular difference. Driving cars is already the most dangerous thing we do and this talk about if computers make good judgment calls or not? They make better judgment calls than humans every time.
Just because people want to speed on the road doesn’t mean we need to accept the crazy idea that it’s somehow safe for them.
Yes but if everyone is doing 70 there won’t be impacts between the cars.
Speed is also not part of force. That’s acceleration times mass. Sudden stops and starts are deadly because of acceleration, not speed.
Obviously any road where people are doing 55 shouldn’t have pedestrians or cyclists.
“Between cars”
Right it’s not like anyone ever has car trouble and the road is always free of obstacles and animals!
It’s exactly like the oil pipeline people. “It’s perfectly safe unless it leaks” but they always leak!! That’s just a fact of life!
“Any road where people are doing 55 shouldn’t have pedestrians on cyclists “
Lots of roads are 55 and have sidewalks.
Hell I got a perfect example. I know one road near the airport that’s 60 until about 100 yards from the school zone where it drops to 20 then picks back up. No one slows down. They blast 70 straight thru (people add 10mph to every posted sign around here because the cops “won’t pull you over for just going a little over”)
So my question to you… on that road what is the safe solution? Should cars slow down and risk a wreck that way? Blast thru the school crosswalk going 70? Or do we need to just close the school and move it away from all those important drivers in a hurry?
Go the speed limit. Safety laws are written in blood buddy. They exist because people kept dying.
@Aeao @Semi_Hemi_Demigod
#BanCars
Bad road design is an entirely different problem.
And I’ve got a question for you: it’s rush hour and everyone is doing 70 in a 55. How do you enforce this? Pull everyone over?
“Pull everyone over “
I love how you phrase that like it’s some ridiculous impossibility lol.
Speed cameras. Send them all a ticket.
“Bad road design is a different problem”
Yeah just like crashing is a different problem lol.
“It’s not my fault that orphanage was flammable! I just like playing with fireworks! They should build better orphanages.
This is complete bullshit, by someone who has a fixated idea but knows nothing.
At 70 break distance is longer, time to react is shorter, and collision speeds are higher. All factors that increase danger and damage.
You might as well claim that driving 250 is perfectly safe if everybody do it.
Obviously acceleration as in negative acceleration is greater in Collisions at higher speeds. You are either a troll or a very very illogical person.
If everyone is doing 250 they won’t hit each other. But if one person is doing 125 things get a lot less safe.
The rest of it is not what I’m talking about. I am aware that all of the rest is true, but is outside of what I’m describing.
Maybe we just eliminate all transportation that can exceed walking speed. You know, for safety.
Acceleration is a derivative of velocity
Which is also a vector. Speed is a scalar.
Wow look at the brain on this one everybody
Sorry for the second reply but these kinda arguments always remind me of the joke
“No street racing should be legal. It’s completely safe! Oh not if they crash but that’s street crashing not racing. I’m very against street crashing. Racing is safe tho”
And I got to know… do you wear a seatbelt when driving? Why? Just don’t crash instead, why waste time with a seatbelt?
I know a few people who have been pulled over for driving the speed limit and making it unsafe by creating a rolling road block.
Most accidents on highways are the result of lane changes, and people not going with the flow of traffic increases lane changes.
I know a guy who got arrested for looking like another guy. Laws are often crappy. Those people you know… what’s thier accident history like? Do they crash a lot? I’m guessing not. I’ve never even come close to hitting another car in all my 20+ years of driving.
The evidence is very clear that speed kills. You are spreading misinformation.
A car doing 70 will not hit another car also doing 70.
Whether they hit something else is a different situation.
But a car doing 55 in traffic doing 70 is a -15mph roadblock that will either be hit by someone else or cause an accident as people change lanes to get around it.
Unless you’re able to stop everyone from speeding it’s going to be this way.
Y’all got any of them
on/off ramps
I hear this argument a lot and I’m not disagreeing per se. But we should be clear. It can be dangerous for 1 out of 10 cars to be driving 55 instead of 75. But it would be safer by far if all 10 cars drove 55.
It can depend on your locale. I live in a country where outside of highways, posted speed limits are a joke. The cops would probably honk you if you were going the posted limit on a non highway road.
They're at that level for a reason. The problem is that most people are ignorant or give little consideration to human life.
Thank you for explaining my country's specific traffic situation to me.
it’s not just a matter of safety, efficiency also plummets above 55mph for very little benefit.
You're talking about the "95 percentile" rule, right?
Solid context that I hadn’t considered. Thanks.
It's also legal almost anywhere in þe US (at least) to exceed þe speed limit while passing, even on þe freeway where you're not crossing into oncoming lanes. A limiter does not take into account valid cases.
Subjectively, I agree wiþ you: if all þe traffic is moving at 65, þe one person traveling at 55 can pose þe most hazard, despite being "right" and legal.
Can you go into any state or town's laws and actually find where it says that? Because I'm willing to bet that it isn't legal to ignore the speed limit while passing someone.
Probably? I þink most states publish þeir license exam books online now. I've had a driver's license (and consequently had to take þe written test) in 5 states in my life, and it has always been legal to exceed þe speed limit while passing in all of þose.
Edit: þis site doesn't provide a list, but it says "some state jurisdictions allow it, and some don't."
Then name one of them. If you're too lazy to go and look at the laws for that state, I can do it for you if you want, but you need to give even a single state of where you think you're allowed to ignore the speed limit while passing someone. Here, I'll give you an example:
Alabama on page 64: On two-lane roads with traffic moving in both directions, you may pass traffic on the left if the pass can be completed safely without exceeding the speed limit.
Most states won't explicitly state that you aren't allowed to speed while passing, but they definitely won't tell you that speeding is fine.
Minnesota.
Go do your own research.
Cool, good to know there are states where you're at least partly right.
Doesn't really work with
where you're allowed to speed only when crossing into oncoming traffic.
Stop typing like that
Remember when Elon said how self driving would make roads safer?
I do remember when musky boy said lies. Many, many lies...
So there’s finally a “New Jersey” mode.
80 on 80 or gtfo
Amen to that.
And all the innocent people that get splattered in the process will just be chimps shot into space
They didn't pay for the car, so why do they get a say right?
Sarcasm.
Simple. They buy a don't run me over subscription. The free market triumphs once again ^/s^
Hmm "don't run me over" insurance! I'm gonna start a business around this idea.
Can an insurance company get insurance in case it ever has to pay out? Cause I foresee a lot of payouts unless your insurance comes with force fields
I'M BUYING MY VERIFICATION CAR DAMMIT STOP SWERVING AT ME
I don't agree with the notion that chimps are less life-worthy than humans.
I don’t agree with the notion either.
Tesla agrees, and all the federal/state/local officials that turn a blind eye to public roads being used as a testing ground for very flawed software.
Yes, that is the point I was making in my original statement
Need jammers to confuse and break Teslas. They're weapons designed to break laws and protect occupants at the expense of bystanders. Can't be mad if a bystander redirects your Tesla into a ditch.
It doesn't even do that. You crash a tesla and start a fire, it will glady lock you in the car.
Can't have too many witnesses after all.
as long as it doesn't break the other ones. not all of the safety features we've developed in the last quarter century are bullshit
Hmm. I think lane-assist probably makes people worse at driving. Anything that lets people pay less attention on the road does, it trains drivers to be less alert. Adaptive cruise and automatic braking are probably a net benefit but "car safety" is not trending in the right direction.
Despite all these "safety features" accidents are far more common now than 20 years ago. "Driver aids" do nothing but encourage bad behaviour, better off just PAYING ATTENTION to the 2 ton steel cage your throwing down a concrete cheese grater at 60+mph...
Eh I have a hard time believing anything made or done in the last 20ish years was done for anything other than money.
That's a great question!
I do indeed read my posts back—how else would I proofread them? 🤖
states just need to ban teslas from public road
Next will be teslas without airbags. Because why not.
TBF, if they're going to lock you in a burning car unable to exit, killing you with the dashboard or sterring column would be a mercy killing compared to burning to death inside.
replace the airbag with a letal injection perhaps?
/s
I can't wait to get paralyzed by a cybertruck veering in to me at the highway
I drive a Tesla. I live in Connecticut, speed limits are set very low and are ignored by just about everybody Including police, as long as you're not driving recklessly.
The problem with the latest FSD versions is they take precise speed control out of the driver's hands. In previous versions, you could manually set a maximum speed. Now you cannot, you only pick one of these driving profiles.
So for example if I'm driving on a 55 mph highway, and all the other cars are doing 75 mph, I have to pick the 'Hurry' profile which also hangs out in the left lane and makes a lot of lane changes and faster acceleration/braking. I would much rather drive standard style but with higher speed, but that isn't an option.
Or... you could just drive yourself.
Why use FSD though if you would still need to pay attention and be ready to take over the car? I understand cruise control to a degree but the other stuff I dont see how its helpful to rely on a computer that can malfunction at any moment.
All these L2 systems (not just Tesla's) really do lower the cognitive load and makes things easier, even if you still have to pay attention.
Remember when you were learning to drive and making sure you did everything right took up a lot of your cognitive ability while driving, maybe you couldn't even carry on a conversation and drive, and as you got more experienced, a lot of it became second nature, and the load on driving became less?
Well that load is still there, it's just less, and this can lower it further even if you are still having to pay attention.
so ppl can get even more reliant on technology and would be downright dangerous behind the wheel of an older vehicle? awesome..
Recently read a book on the Nudge effect and it mentioned it taking upwards of 40 seconds for a human to re-establish control of an automated vehicle. Is not having to worry about traffic and your place in it when using "automated" driving part of the appeal? I guess not breaking the law isn't quite decadent enough for Tesla owners.
As the parent commenter who actually drives the Tesla, this is absolute bullshit. It does not take me any 40 seconds to reestablish control. FSD is not push the button and take a nap. If it was, it might take me 40 seconds to wake up, take a sip of coffee, stretch and yawn, tilt my chair back up, and then look around the car. But that is not the case.
FSD requires driver attention to the road. Even if the computer is driving, I am still paying attention to what is going on and if anything maintaining a higher level of situational awareness because I can spread my attention around the car without having to focus on staying in the lane. If I want to take over I literally just do it, apply any control input and I'm back in control. Turn the wheel, hit the gas, hit the brake, the car responds immediately.
Driving on residential streets I will often go in and out of FSD frequently, the version I have is not as good with complex intersections and knowing when it is our turn for example. So I'll let it drive along and stay in the lane, then when we get to the intersection I'll take over, then when we get to the other side I'll go back on FSD. There is no 40 second delay anywhere.
I would strongly encourage you to go test drive the car. I'm not saying buy one, I'm saying just so that you can understand what exactly the system does and does not do. Don't take that knowledge from what you read online, much of it written by people with an agenda either pro-Tesla or anti-Tesla. Go experience it for yourself and decide for yourself based on first hand knowledge If it's a dangerous piece of shit or a useful tool.
Maybe it has changed since the last time I tried on a rental (about a year ago), but it felt too gimmicky to be useful. It constantly wanted me to jerk the wheel, and would randomly turn itself off otherwise. Despite the fact I still had both my hands on the wheel, and the camera sensor should have noticed I was constantly looking at the road.
And then the few times it stayed active for a longer period, I was even more bored than usual with driving, and I didn't feel much safer. Especially with country roads, it was constantly doing the speed limit instead of slightly slowing down in the few areas without fences (wildlife running into the road), and it was also happy to drive through a long and deep visible pool of water on the highway at like 110km/hr.
It'd be different if Tesla had LiDAR, but nah, it's not for me. I'm glad you like it though.
Lidar wouldn't have solved any of the issues you described. It also doesn't solve the issues waymo frequenly has, where you'd say wtf didn't lidar stop that? People are putting too much faith on lidar being a magic bullet. All these l2/AVs still need much better capabilities to process visual queues that lidar won't help with.
Like a waymo literally drove into a telephone pole, WITH lidar. They all need better brains.
Significantly changed. Even in the last few months. I would encourage you to go do a test drive. Night and day from the type of experience you have.
The driver monitoring now uses a camera. If you are looking at the road, it doesn't ask you to jerk the wheel at all.
Speed control is much more organic and considers turns, hills, etc. The machine vision on the cameras is different as well, it uses a processing technique called occupancy networks to produce 3D data out of the 2D camera images.
The one concern is you list speed in km, the current full self-driving software is not available in all countries and may not be available in yours, which might mean if you do a test drive you are still on the same very basic system you had before.
For the average person to reassume the cognitive load of driving and awareness of what's around then moving at highway speeds? I don't think 40 seconds is a stretch at all.
Also, the smug self-assurance of a Tesla owner does little more than reveal just why people feel the way they do about this kind of person. So certain in the technology and other Tesla owners that concerns over the bicycle rider or the pedestrian become little more than background noise.
You really have no idea what your talking about thinking it takes 40s.
Parent comment described it accurately.
There's the disconnect.
You're starting cold. Like, you just woke up from a nap, to find you're on the highway and have to take over. Then maybe it takes 20-40 seconds.
That's not the case for a Tesla driver. The driver is required (and it's enforced by attention monitoring) to stay situationally engaged.
Serious question- have you ever actually USED FSD? In a five minute test drive, or ideally for a long car trip? I believe that you are speaking from a position of ignorance, IE you are speaking factually about something you aren't familiar with the facts of.
The VERY FIRST TIME I drove a Tesla, I turned Autopilot (that's what there was back then) on and off several times in the space of a drive. There was no 40 second anything.
I think there's a distinction to make between driver assistance technologies and how drivers become reliant on automation. Because otherwise, should we not have automatic transmission, either?
I'm saying the problem is that it lowers the mental load, which lowers reaction timing. You might be able to counter that by paying attention as much with FSD as without, but then you are gaining nothing but extra risk.
Is there a reason you want to reduce the mental load as much as possible? If I were driving 4+hours per day its possible I might be more likely to agree with you but thats just a guess.
Lowering the mental load of having to maintain speed and lane does not mean you're not paying attention and able to take over.
It means you have more time to be aware of what's going on around you, while still paying attention to what it's handling for you.
Saying you gain nothing but risk because you still pay attention just isn't true. There is still a gain, even with any added risk.
Stop and go traffic, and long drives it really helps.
When you say it helps, is this just in general mental well being from less stress from driving? Is it purely convenience? I personally dont find driving to be stressful in my life but again I dont have a long commute.
I do drive a manual in rush hour periodically, I dont see how FSD helps there though? I'd still need to be ready to hit the brake if the car malfunctions wouldnt I?
Ya, mental well being and less stress sounds about right. Going for a couple hour drive and using it for even a part of it can leave me feeling better off when I get to my destination.
It's not something I always turn on for entire trips either, I still do a mix of both, but lets say I'm on a 2hour trip and I've been driving regularly for 30 minutes and I'm starting to feel it, I can turn it on and there's just this instant noticeable reduction, but then maybe there's some construction or something ahead where I want to take over, so I take over and then drive the next 30 minutes myself again.
The best analogy is probably just regular cruise control if you've ever used it. You still gotta pay attention and be ready to alter your speed, but you're not suddenly forgetting about speed while it's on, but you're also not getting worn down by having to maintain it manually.
For example - Feeling frustrated or annoyed by that car in front of you that's constantly slowing down so you always have to be modulating your speed, but you can't necessarily pass? Well it can just follow it and modulate it for you, well I can assure you, it's less annoying when you don't have to manage that yourself.
You always need to be ready to brake or press the accelerator depending on the situation, and I move my foot around depending on the situation. Just driving on the open highway, I'll be ready for the accelerator in case of any phantom braking, coming up to a light with another vehicle in front of me, I'll move it to the brake until it's clear the car is braking at my comfort level. It's all situational, and if you're paying attention like you're supposed to be, it'll just be natural on which one you are prepared for.
Stop and go traffic it's just making sure it does actually stop as it inches forward a few feet and needs to come to a stop again but without needing to actually manage it myself.
As somebody who has a more basic car with just adaptive cruise control, the peace of mind makes driving less exhausting. I think there's a considerable number of accidents caused by driver fatigue, such as rear-ending due to reduced reaction speed. A simple driver assistance technology like adaptive cruise control can prevent an accident like that, and advanced front collision warnings can stop cars like mine from speeds up to 100 km/h.
Finally an actual intelligent question that isn't just 'fuck Tesla'.
FSD has gotten very very good. On the highway, it is a better driver than I am. I have had my car for a few years, I have driven many hundreds of hours on FSD, and it has only really tried to do something stupid twice, both of them some time ago on much older software. I don't even have the most recent software because my car is computer is generation 3, I'm running the last one that was available for HW3 (version 12) but I have a lot of time on it so I am quite familiar with what it can and cannot do.
As such, I gain trust by experience, by watching it perform. So I know which situations I can trust it to do the right thing, and which situations I cannot.
That means in one of the situations where I trust it, such as on the highway, I can turn it on and leave it the task of staying in lane and maintaining speed. I can focus my attention then on maintaining overall situational awareness of the world around the car. Even if I am doing something else like eating a sandwich, which would otherwise distract my attention and make me a less safe driver, I feel the result is overall more safe because the computer is watching 360° around the car and I am maintaining situational awareness of what I can see. I believe this creates the most safe situation.
Using highway driving like that, there have been a couple situations where the car reacted to something that I hadn't even seen yet and potentially avoided an accident. For example, there was one situation where a very reckless driver was coming up from behind in the right lane and merging into our lane. I didn't see it because I was looking forward, Tesla did because the cameras are looking everywhere. Tesla's reaction was to slow down and change lanes away from the guy, which was the correct response. The car started reacting before I was even aware of the threat, and because the car had already cleared the space it was changing lanes into, it was able to start that lane change faster than I could because I would have looked over the shoulder first..
There have also been a few situations where I reacted to something the car was not reacting to yet and while it would not have resulted in an accident, it did increase safety by my intervention. Basic example is I am in the far right lane, there is an entry exit lane to the right which is ending and I know it is ending but the car doesn't necessarily. I know the car slightly ahead and to the right of me is going to have to merge into my lane, so I manually slow down the car to give him a space to come in whereas Tesla would have just maintained speed and he would have had to slow down and go behind me.
I would strongly encourage you to disregard a lot of The crap you read in the news and online, much of it written by people who intrinsically hate Elon and anything he has ever touched, and go test drive the car. I'm not saying go buy the car, I'm saying go have the experience of actually using FSD so you can see first hand exactly what it is like.
I simply dont see a benefit to the technology in my own life. I'm willing to hear others give their experience though. I think for me, whether its a better driver or not is secondary to accountability. I'm accountable for my mistakes, whereas a co pany like tesla has many many reasons why they should avoid accountability.
If FSD were a state or federal government initiative with the goal of improving society, I think that would go a long way. At least something like that.
A fair position.
In the current system, you are still responsible for the vehicle, including a responsibility to take over if/before it does something stupid.
So if you frame it as 'driving is my responsibility, and this is a tool that helps me meet that responsibility' I think it's a positive.
A LOT of people will, and do, and have, looked at FSD (and its predecessor systems like Autopilot) as 'I don't want/need to drive, I'll let the machine do it (even if the machine isn't safe)'. These are the kind of people who hung weights on their steering wheel so the car thought they were paying attention while they dozed off (that's why the cabin cameras became a thing).
I got a tesla and I don't fucking trust that shit to not slam me in to a barrier
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm not saying this as an insult, I am simply stating a fact that you are completely and totally mistaken.
You are driving a nazi car.
Do you live in an alternate reality where Tesla employees didn’t get caught sharing camera footage from inside peoples garages and stuff just because they thought it was funny?
That was a very early version of their system, once that happened they put strong controls in place for the storage of video and it's now very easy to control what if any video and audio the car reports back to Tesla.
And when, ever in its history, has Tesla given you a reason to believe they aren’t just outright lying?
Every time my car gets an update and FSD gets better. Every time I get in my car and hit the FSD button.
Serious question- have you ever driven a Tesla? And if so for how long?
Yea it was fine but the driver assist wasn’t any better than my Honda and the turn signals were awful. I drove it for a few hours.
Self own, tbh.
There are easier ways to get yourself killed and they don't also put families in harm's way
FSD does not mean push the button and take a nap. I am still attentive to the road while it is in use. I believe it actually makes me a safer driver, because I can focus more attention on maintaining overall situational awareness of the world around the car, without needing to focus on the task of staying in lane and maintaining the correct speed.
You got scammed, buddy. Great job.
Funny, I don't feel scammed.
Drives better than any car I've owned previously. The 'fuel' cost is less than 1/2 of an equivalent gas car- and that's if I'm using peak hour Superchargers. The maintenance is significantly less- no oil changes, timing belts, etc, just rotate tires and change cabin air filters. And the car drives itself when I want it to.
So if by 'getting scammed' you mean 'have a car that costs way less to operate, is far more reliable, has more safety features, has more functionality, has a gas pump in my garage, and I can preheat it in my garage without dying of CO poisoning' then yeah absolutely I've gotten scammed and I'd love to be scammed like this more frequently :D
"Hurry mode" lol. I'm pretty sure every driving instruction manual ever made says something like "don't drive like you're in a hurry."
This is the guy who decided traffic rules are dumb.
Intentionally breaking laws sounds like something that should be prosecuted.
It will always fall on the driver of the vehicle, as it should. I don't care how self driving your car is, it has a steering wheel, an accelerator pedal, and a brake pedal and in the driver seat YOU are responsible with how you operate your vehicle. If u decide to trust a self driving feature that's YOUR mistake. I would love to blame all these crashes on Tesla but the reality is that all these drivers aids and self driving cars having accidents is proof that you should be the one in control of your own vehicle. No crying about how the automotive nannies didn't stop you from crashing the vehicle your driving, take responsibility. Don't like it? Don't trust the "self driving" nonsense (read: glorified advanced cruise control). Now one thing I don't agree with is advertising as self driving, and I strongly believe self driving vehicles in public roadways should be ILLEGAL!
Except the problem here is Tesla is lying about a product to encourage people to use it illegally and unsafely. At some point there's extra deaths to blame solely on tesla's lies.
Can you point to one of those lies? Because every time I push the FSD button it says 'keep hands on the wheel be prepared to take over at any time' right there on the screen.
Full Self Driving, the name of the feature is literally a lie. Its used all over in the marketing for the vehicle. Most car companies call comparable features "driving assistance" or "lane control" etc.
There is a significant difference between lane control and FSD. Lane control just keeps you in the lane so you don't have to actively steer. FSD actually drives the car, changes lanes, makes turns, stops for traffic lights and stop signs, navigates intersections, etc. With the current v14, you can get in your car, type in a destination, and then not steer or push the pedals at all and the car will take you to a parking space at your destination. Lane control does not do that. I'm not aware of any other company that does that.
Tesla has the highest accident rate per driver for a reason. FSD has routinely plowed into children, emergency vehicles etc. Theres a number of lawsuits against them around the world.
Other companies have implemented these more limited systems (that often include better sensors such as lidar) not because they can't do it but rather because they are more cautious about brazenly lying to people about the capabilities of their system.
You are using this word 'routinely', but I do not think that it means what you think it means.
Can you give me, say, 10 incidents of this? Of a Tesla confirmed to be on FSD driving full speed into a child, emergency vehicle, etc?
FSD used to 'routinely' be overly cautious and slow down when not necessary, but I don't think it's driving into things.
I'd also point out the driver remains responsible for the car and an eye movement camera prevents distracted driving, but I digress.
Other companies simply have less capable systems.
If I go and buy a current product Tesla, I can have it drive me home and chances are I won't have to touch any controls. In a few cases, new production Teslas literally deliver themselves to the new owner's driveway. Can any other automaker say the same?
With the exception of not being low cost items, Tesla blended with a little SpaceX could become Spacers Choice from The Outer Worlds.
"At Spacer's Choice, we cut corners so you don't have to”.
"It's not the best choice, it's Spacer's Choice”.
“Taste the freedom”.
I need to go play that again
I had fun with it both times I played. Thinking about getting the new one at the end of this month.
Dude can we get so much as a copyright violation from Warner Bros on this shit?
the incompetence of this guy holy.
"Witness me" mode to visit vallhalla sooner.
This article is hysterical, I can't believe its not an onion article.
Oh hell naw, I thought I bit the onion 💀
I'll play the Devil's Advocate. 15MPH over isn't bad and is often necessary. Sometimes you have to get away from another vehicle or overtake on a 2-lane highway.
For any Europeans horrified by that statement, our roads were designed for cars from the very start.
Quick question: What is the autobahn?
FSD is a mess. But this is how normal people drive. 15mph isnt all that much on a lot of roads. Traffic is normally 15 over 🤷♂️.
No it isn't. No normal person drives 30 kilometers over the speed limit. You don't go into a school zone doing 40 mi/h.
Yes it is. Going straight to an edge case is a rather strong indicator that you know it is.
Edit: here you go 80 in a 55. Notice everyone going the same speed or faster. https://imgur.com/a/ORkUEHh
Firstly, that clip shows nothing about the driver's current speed, only that everyone is driving the same speed.
You cannot do 140 km/h down the interstate, just as you do not do 100 km/h down a residential street or a main road. That's a pretty notable difference. No-one does that.
An extra 15 miles an hour is a pretty significant difference basically everywhere, unless you're on the Autobahn or something.
👌👍 nobody drives 15mph over.
Enshittification
Shitty? Yes. "Enshitification"? No.
FSD as it is currently with human supervision is 10x safer than driving without FSD. Source Tesla 2025 Q2 report vs reports from NHTSA.
Edit: some time in and I’ve only gotten
ad hominem responsesinsults and downvotes. Please make a convincing argument that I’m wrong or maybe realize you’re just downvoting facts you don’t like if you don’t bring your own.Edit: non Tesla source showing only two fatalities over all FSD miles, no matter what number you come up with for miles with FSD even at 10% of Teslas reported numbers it’s safer than a human.
tesladeaths.com
The key is "with human supervision". Calling it Full Self Driving with "Supervised" in parentheses aftwards while putting out videos where they say the only reason there's some behind the wheel is because of regulations (those annoying "regulations" amirite?) leads people to think they don't really need to supervise the driving of the car.
Couple that with the fact that there are actual full self driving cars (Waymo) there's even greater confusion.
People have been killed because of the misconceptions about Telsa cars actually being full self driving. Which they aren't, they cheap out on the hardware needed for that to be possible, let alone the software.
I agree the terminology is misleading and should be changed. If you’ve ever driven in one no driver with it on can be confused, the system will yell at you to look at the road.
Waymo is ahead right now in geofenced areas for sure, I like Waymo, this post was just specifically about Tesla.
Whether FSD is possible with out LiDAR is still an open question, but I think the safety personnel in Austin will be removed soon which will answer that question.
I can’t think of a less trustworthy source. Rolling a pile of dice with words on them is likely to tell the truth more often.
Or try this link from the government of Austin Link
Fair enough. The NHTSA probe is for 2.9 million vehicles and 53 incidents. That is far below the level of incidents humans have over that span of vehicles for any appreciable level of drive time.
The same NHTSA that had its employees removed from these probes by the person being investigated?
Do you think a car that alerts you if you look away from the road and forces you to pay attention or you lose your ability to use the new features is less safe than a vehicle that is unaware if the driver is texting/sleeping or whatever?
What type of source would you trust on this? If you don’t trust NHTSA what is your basis for saying Tesla FSD is unsafe?
Do you think Tesla invented that concept? Also clearly the systems don’t work. There are literally pornographic films of people fucking in the back seat while nobody is driving.
I agree that it is incredibly harmful that we don’t have any scientific institutions that we can trust now that the Nazi ruined them. There is no replacement.
I never claimed that Tesla invented that system just stated that cars with it (teslas others) are safer than the majority of ones without.
Your second sentence is impossible with the way the system works, perhaps pornos aren’t good sources for accurate information?
If there’s no replacement for solid trustworthy data in your mind I don’t think this is a worthwhile conversation if you will trust literally no source.
Are you really rejecting reality? Just go on YouTube and you can find plenty of non-porn videos of people defeating the shitty attention system. I just chose porn as an example to show just how absurd your trust in Daddy Nazi’s lies is.
the safest thing to do, is to not drive at all! I never trusted humans anyways, with their strange motivations, and how inconsistent their behavior. its best if we let go and let the machines take us where they will
No disagreement that the safer option is not driving at all.
I don’t think a car driving itself where you tell it is giving up human self determination tho.
uhhhhhhh
Those are financial documents if they’re lying and you can prove it sue them and make some money lol
UHHHHHHHH
This conversation isn’t productive. Agree to disagree have a nice day.
Edit: lol still downvoting me while you never provided your “easy to find” video showing FSD is easily fooled. Downvotes and mocking don’t make a good argument.
lol now i gotta actually go back and downvote you
Hey, dummy.
Thank you for the source! I agree that Tesla should’ve halted FSD and went all in on ensuring FSD sees and stops for busses, this is dangerous and mishandled.
My original claim wasn’t that FSD or Tesla is perfect, just already safer than humans.
Please note my below sources are from 2024 to get a full year and have data before the Trump administration. This means that the software is older and so doesn’t hit my 10x claim but does hit 5x. I’m confident 2025 will hit 10x. (And if we keep to my original claim being FSD specific, ie not including autopilot it is already at 10x.)
https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-estimates-39345-traffic-fatalities-2024
1.2 fatalities per 100 million miles
Tesla 2024 fleet size(yes a Tesla source but tesladeaths is not up to date on fleet size)
https://x.com/tesla_ai/status/1905644814483251709
2.16 billion miles 2024 Expected deaths 34
Actual deaths 6 (once again being favorable to the opposing view including autopilot deaths in this total. For comparison, even Tesla deaths.com only claims 2 fatalities involving the use of FSD use over all time)
https://www.tesladeaths.com/
(Would’ve used this source for fleet size miles as well but not updated since 2019)
I’ve used a basically entirely biased against Tesla source for deaths. With their numbers Tesla fsd is still multiple times safer than a human.
For the record, I could find no record of FSD actually hitting a child getting on a bus. It’s still a supervised system and human drivers are aware it doesn’t work with busses and take action to stop for the bus. The coming update does in fact now stop for busses so it is being addressed, albeit I agree not with the speed and seriousness such a miss should merit.
I’d rather have a system with a human and computer ensuring safety. Even if at the moment there are still for sure situations where the computer is far worse than a human, it being better in the majority of cases still makes it more safe to have than not have.
I only answered because I think you have a shit opinion.
I didn’t read your response and I probably won’t. Feel free to defend Musk more and pay attention to me less.
Bye!
You know what, you're right.
You know what has an even better safety track record than a car with FSD supervised by a human?
Trains.
If your concern is actually safety, advocate for the safest methods of transportation - mass public transit, coupled with pedestrian- and bicycle-safe roads, and advocate against passenger cars, in any form.
I would love walkable cities. I frequently bike to work you’ll get no disagreement from me there.
It's not safer. I know because I've driven one. Not only does it make it easier to get distracted for just a moment, but also, you pay less attention to the surroundings, handling of the vehicle, situational awareness, etc. Because you know you don't "have to".
And when it makes mistakes (and it does quite often) you're less prepared to deal with it.
Now you're going to parrot "but you're supposed to be attentive at all times", and yes, you're right, but we're humans. And yes, you can absolutely extrapolate that FSD is less safe because of it, because it definitely puts the final safely measure on a weak part: us.
Adaptive cruise control plus some level of Lane assist is, in my experience, safer. You're still driving but you can relax your muscles, therefore allowing you to be less tired. More so if you have a manual transmission.
Anecdotal. I’ve also driven one and felt it safer. I didn’t lead with that in my post because anecdotes aren’t real evidence. Please share an actual study or report or information showing it’s more dangerous.
I agree right now is a weird in between as humans will keep looking at the road but may begin to daydream. But Austin with no one in the drivers seat shows were nearly past this in between.
I don't have stats, but my personal feeling is that car safety features trump full self driving.
Eg, you are actively driving (which ensures you are engaged and dont fall asleep, etc), but if the car sees something it can react (drifting out of lane, car slows down ahead of you, person walks in road, etc).
That seems so much safer in my opinion.
(That works for driving around town, ofc I think adaptive cruise control + the above safety features is safe for highways, etc)
For the moment absolutely, that’s why the system requires your attention and will lock you out of using it fairly quickly if you are distracted. Tesla drivers on FSD are forced by their car to pay attention to the road. Surely people can see how that alone makes it safer than all of the cars that don’t know their driver is texting or whatever in a car that can’t drive itself at all.
i've personally seen this not to be true and it's not hard to find videos verifying my position.
Could you please share a video showing this demonstrated on version 13.2.9? I will happily watch and admit you were right if you can find a video of the current version being easily tricked.
Edit: To anyone reading this comment in the future think about what is revealed when not only is a video provided but I’m downvoted for merely asking for it.
If it can ensure you are looking at the road, that sounds good.
Not sure if it seems as safe as you in full operation of the car for turns etc around town, but its a good safety feature to ensure you arent distracted.
Not only can it, it is a required part of FSD. You can not operate it without it making sure your eyes are on the road. Every source looking at actual incidents per mile driven shows that FSD (and Waymo and the others) is already safer than human drivers. I’d be happy to be proven wrong on that.
There are incidents. It’s not perfect, but right now that’s why humans must still be actively paying attention.
Bot found
Did you even look at my account/post history?
Yes.
Tesla autopilot performs better than humans per mile because it runs mostly on the freeway which has a far lower chance of accidents per mile than slower city areas which are more difficult to navigate.
So you admit I’m not a bot? A persistent chiefs fan is a real person.
I will if you retract your statement about Tesla being better than real drivers by using Tesla as a source.
I won’t retract my statement but I added a link to tesladeaths.com showing that FSD has only caused 2 fatalities over its entire lifetime of miles. Even at 1/10th of Tesla’s reported miles that’s safer than a human.
Neither of those deaths were the current software version either so currently FSD 13.2.9 has caused 0 fatalities.
Tesla lies about this stuff why would I trust them https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article311553847.html
Care to respond to my argument with reason or evidence and not resort to ad-hominem?
that wasn't an ad hominem, it was an insult
Insults are ad hominem... 🤦♂️
You're attacking the person, and not their argument.
Calling me stupid is attacking my character in my view but sure I mislabeled it when it was an insult. Your point?
Again you’ve yet to actually debate my sources or provide your own. You may continue to insult me or mock me as much as you want but I’m not interested in a conversation without actual discussion of the facts.
are you sure? that seems to be far from the case, as you must get the last word in. now we're just teasing you for fun.