California police stumped after trying to ticket driverless car for illegal U-turn
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/sep/29/waymo-illegal-u-turn-driverless-carOpen linkView original on lemmy.nz606
Comments117https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/sep/29/waymo-illegal-u-turn-driverless-carOpen linkView original on lemmy.nz
That's not how it fucking works
How have you guys not bothered to prepare for this? It's not the cop's fault, but it is not a secret that there are Waymo cars in San Francisco. How is this something that nobody thought of?
Oh, pardon me. So you're on top of it.
And your plan was to call up Waymo and ask them politely to improve their tech please? Or, that becomes the plan as of 2026?
My guy these cars went on the road EIGHT FUCKING YEARS AGO
The big invasion of Ukraine was years in the future, Covid hadn't happened and wasn't going to any time soon, Obama had just stepped down, CALIFORNIA EXPLAIN
Dude, you can't just penalize a corporation. That would be commiesocialism or something.
According to the government, "Corporations are people too."
I'll believe a corporation is a person when The Texas department of corrections executes one.
I'll believe a corporation is a person when one is successfully murdered. I don't care who does it.
Herds/corporations dissipate: only individuals can truly-die.
Groups have been hiding that pertinent-fact from discussion for ages, now..
It's time that we created legally-distinct categories for those who are only aggregates, like herds/corporations, vs individuals-who-can-die.
That'd take spine, though, which politics-the-arena weeds-out/prevents-from-having-any-say.
_ /\ _
And just like real people. They’re dead when they have no more money.
And yet, they can sell their debt
That’s only because the liberals government took away Americans’ right to buy and sell people. Gotta bundle debt and people together for good business.
Back then, both in the US and the UK, the liberal philosophers of the times considered it an infringement on property rights to restrict the buying and selling of slaves. Liberalism: A Counter-History goes over the debates at the time.
Republicans love to point to those days to claim they're not racist today
You wouldn't molotovcocktail a car (just because it's putting everyone's safety at risk simply by existing)
Surely there is a leftist or unhoused person that could be scapegoated and punished for this.
I believe the federal gubment just declared being anti capitalism is considered an act of terror or something.
If FDR was still alive, they'd execute him for "terrorism"
But exactly! You guys wanted hypercapitalism, now you complain?
Did nobody think to just write "waymo" and use the company HQ as the driver's address?
Better yet, ask the waymo car for a drivers license. None present? Impound.
Just tell the cops they're allowed to stab the tires and have it towed. The problem will fix itself one way or another.
You've got the right spirit but I think it's unlikely that the car would realize its tires have been destroyed, I think it would just keep driving around just with less control over its actions which might not be the best.
Give them a little hand-carried version of The Grappler, and then if Waymo has some kind of concern about what has happened to the brakes and suspension and all sorts of shit that is broken now, just give 'em one of these.
I'm not going to stop you, but the car definitely knows the tyre status. Most modern cars have tyre pressure sensing.
Naw. Cone ‘em and then tow them- at owner’s expense.
If the waymo hadnt been painted white they would have unloaded a clip into it instead
The state’s allowed to ban the company from the roads if they bother too many people or officials—a fairly enormous stick.
Make the whole world’s governments mad? Investors won’t be too happy. Huggge stick.
It does break from our “one immediate fine/ticket for one infraction” paradigm so I understand why it looks bad.
Gosh can you imagine if they drop our numbers from ~seven Californians killed on our roads every day to [far] fewer… (guy can dream, obvy they’re not perfect)
You finally found out how long it takes to get laws into effect bro.
Obama was elected in 2008 and took office in 2009. The biggest overhaul to American health care since FDR went into effect on March 23, 2010, and that was with the US congress involved, which always inevitably turns everything into more of a shit show than it needs to be.
You can do it, you just have to be something other than dysfunctional wreckage to do it.
The government is great
Just impound the vehicle when the driver refuses to sign, or rip the axle out.
You know, like if it had a human owner.
Corporations are people right. So why aren’t they sent all these tickets.
I mean, you're supposed to take the ticket when you're pulled over, and I don't believe we should make it easier for people who aren't in the vehicle when driving it.
Write the ticket, hold it out at the car window, when no one takes it write "Refused", make everyone exit, disable the vehicle until it can be towed to impound, and keep it at impound until some responsible person comes to claim it, sign the ticket, and pay the fees.
Honestly, should just impound all of the fleet immediately.
If the goal of the ticket is to stop the danger and enforce compliance, it has to be to the company via the entire fleet, and it must hurt them financially enough to immediately change the behavior.
Tickets have never been about stopping danger, they are a fundraiser.
Take all cars of that make off the road for being a danger, fine the company operating unsafe cars for a chunk of their revenue, suspend their licenses until they prove extensively that their vehicles have been made safe for traffic (the burden of proof for which would have to be far higher than a human driver, since we can't even assume a base level of human reason).
Would this kill the company? Possibly. Would I shed a tear? Only if those same cars end up driving again without better security measures.
Aircraft must have pilots in command.
Radio stations must have control operators.
Pedestrian manglers can just roam free!
Even a train, the thing that runs on rails has operators
I could see a subway train or other "No other traffic runs on or crosses these rails" being automated, but with normal pulling freight down the rails trains, somebody needs to be on board the damn thing.
The entire reason they’re deploying AI in the battlefields is to avoid accountability for those firing. The lack of accountability is an intended feature, not a bug.
A troubling conclusion I hadn’t yet come to. God damn.
They’re not being subtle about it. The weapons companies are offering it as a selling point at the conventions.
Great RoboCop with better weapons.
It really doesn't take much intelligence to figure out who needs to get the ticket for that.
Spoken like someone who hasn't had to interact with American law enforcement much.
Being intelligent is quite literally a disqualifying characteristic.
"Couldn't give a ticket. Tried to drag the driver out, force him do to tests and beat the ever loving shit outta him but... holds back tears There...there was no driver..."
Follow the money. Who owns the car?
That level of effort is way above the pay grade of a typical beat cop.
It's not a question of what feels right, it's a question of what the law actually says. I'm pretty sure most of us are actually not all that fond of the idea of cops making up or creatively reinterpreting the law to suit their own whims, so I don't see why we should suddenly be cheering for it now.
If the law isn't written in such a way as to be able to apply to driverless vehicles, that's a problem that lawmakers need to correct.
Lawmakers are too busy focusing on irrelevant distractions to be addressing gaps in the law.
And, just so we're clear, you're saying you're cool with the alternative being proposed here, which is that the police just make up the law as they see fit?
I don't believe I said that, nor implied it ?
So which is it then? Do you want cops making the law, do you want lawmakers making the law, or do you want to offer a third option?
Ticket the damn manufacturer. They need to be made to understand not to put substandard devices into public hands
Sho nuff
I can see rego plates in the picture, are they not linked to anyone? Ticket the owner, it's not rocket science.
And boot it to prevent repeat offense.
It'd likely require a different statute. Like how running a red light is a different penalty if the driver is pulled over by a cop versus the vehicle owner being caught by a stoplight camera.
They're remote cars. I would ticket the operator, even if its just a corporation. Let the courts figure out if it applies
This is the right answer for issues with driverless cars. Ticket the registrant/owner. The State shouldn’t have to fight with a manufacturer to ensure legality in a vehicle’s programming, that’s a losing battle that will cost ridiculous amounts of taxpayer money. Fine vehicle operators so they’ll stop buying vehicles that incur costly fines. Losing customers is the only thing a corporation will listen to.
Well also those cars are likely insured as the state law requires and if they keep getting citations, even if those fines are easy for the company to pay off, their insurance should hopefully skyrocket causing more lasting and impactful damage
Law says the driver is ticketed for driving infractions.
So if your car gets ticketed by a speed camera without the driver being identified, who do they send the ticket to?
They send it to the registered owner and treat it as a parking violation, which does not go on your driving record. The ticket also has a "it wasn't me" box you can tick to get the fine removed when you mail it in.
Easy, Just impound it. When they have to deal with going to get them in person, they'll stop the illegal shit
These things make illegal left turns across double yellows and even opposing left turn lanes. They will literally stop in the middle of the road and block traffic to make the turn, instead of pulling up to the nearest center lane/left turn lane. I report it every time through the Waymo app but they keep doing it regardless.
It's at the point where I have to carefully plan my route to prevent the car from making stupid illegal moves. But even with the mistakes I still trust them more than I do a human driver. They just need more refinement, but Google doesn't seem to actually give a fuck about my feedback.
That said, at least they actually go to the pickup marker I set and wait patiently for me to arrive, unlike Uber/Lyft drivers who ignore your pickup spot, and then immediately cancel the ride when they don't see me because they went to the wrong pickup spot!
why in the world would you trust this thing more than a human driver? Like do you feel it's more predictable or smth?
I used to work there, and I'm in the same boat as ![email protected]. I've got over 10k miles behind the wheel (most from the early days when the software sometimes felt like it was actively trying to kill you) and even with all the stupid shit they still do, I trust it more than 95% of the people on the road. It doesn't have an ego and drive angry, it doesn't get distracted by a phone, etc.
Granted, driving near them can be rough, as they're programmed to follow the laws. And since most people don't, it can be a bit jarring as it's not what you expect from other cars.
Because I've been on over 50 rides totalling nearly 1000 miles, so I know what to expect. They're very consistent and very cautious; the radar sees everything (you can see what it sees on a screen), even once avoided an accident I would have never seen coming.
Like I said, the kinks have to be worked out, but they're still 10x safer than any human driver IMO. I'll take a Waymo any day over an Uber/Lyft driver. The best part is you don't have to tip! Hell, you don't even have to talk to anybody, because there's nobody to talk to! All of my rides are blissfully silent.
Doesn't the car have an owner? Because in Brazil, the ticket always goes to the owner, even when someone else is driving - something that has its share of problems
That's how a lot of US states do it for speed cameras.
Just realized I'm not sure if the same happens when you get pulled over or are driving a rental but in general the idea fixes more problems than it causes.
Google. You think they give a fuck about anything less than six figure sums? Hell, seven figure sums. A low our figure traffic fine is probably less than the person handling the paperwork makes in a week at Google.
What is this "Airbud" rules.
Cant give it a ticket cause my ticket book doesn't say anything about "robots" breaking laws.
Surprised Pikachu!
Prepare to run people over!
You know, we should re-assess many assumptions in light of emerging technologies. Even the conceptual value of labour is becoming more and more obsolete as AI and automation comes. We need a new Marx in relation to data as leverage to demand social equity, as in advocate for universal basic income/utility. Tech barons stole our data to train AI and automation, it's only right we bear fruit from our personal information.
That sounds concerning, but how is it different from regular taxes to collect & distribute the funds?
I mean, besides the obvious push from them to reduce taxes to 0% as they already do in the States.
Not sure it's even possible to achieve being "completely free of corruption from moneyed lobbying", but at least getting to a system where the legislature or whoever has the power and the will (if not absolute mandate) to continually evaluate the situation and combat corruption (sanctioning, suspending, or expelling violators; penalizing lobbyists who don't follow the rules; amending the rules as needed to keep ahead of the problems).
There's just not enough real consequences for any of these people failing to live up to the standards we should expect of them.
Well if my choices are
A) live in a tyrannical oligarchy where a few powerful people hold all the power and don’t value me at all
Or
B) live in a tyrannical oligarchy where a few powerful people hold all the power and don’t value me at all but I have money for food…
Man that’s a tough choice. I’ll go with B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Really? Because you’re living in that false dilemma and and humans always have lived in that false dilemma.
So it’s not all that false
If you only present 2 options then it is a false dilemma.
The sky is blue. True or false?
Is Chicago in America or not?
Are palm trees a tree , yes or no?
You need to revisit the dictionary. Not every a or b choice is a false dilemma.
Dude, you don't even know the difference between a decision and a question.
And, just for fun.
The sky is transparent
Chicago is in Kwekwe
Palm trees are a grass.
And that worked extremely well exclusively for white men in that great society you mentioned. It leaves out “lessers” living in that society. The ones who struggled to scrape by because their homes were redlined and valueless and they just took down your neighborhood to build another toll road.
The fact is that perfect time was only perfect for those in the chosen class. Boo.
I think we can do better than that.
Go read “the power broker” good book.
It's an understandable concern but IMO if people are made aware of the value of their personal information being used to advance information age, like people learned the value of their labour during the Industrial age, then we can leverage to demand UBI. We need to be compensated for eventually losing jobs to robots, and using our information that trained the AI doing the jobs they would replace us with.
And even if it's not compensation by UBI, there is universal basic services in which people are provided housing and utilities unconditionally. Carbon dividend could also be a source of income to fund UBI or UBS until we achieve net zero greenhouse emissions.
May a firefighter tear the cars in half using the jaws of life.
You have 30 minutes to move your cube.
How did you make these legal and not put in place a process for this? Absolutely corrupt incompetence.
Boot it
I think you can stop robotaxis by just putting a traffic cone on its hood.
Yeah but that's easy to take off. The least you could do is epoxy it to the hood of the clanker.
Wouldn't spray painting the sensors be easier and more effective?
Not necessarily. You'd be surprised how many sensors and cameras have coatings on them which prevents spray paints from sticking (before it dries it just slides off)
Oh in that case we should just boot it and call it a day.
Shut it down and impound it? It's a fucking piece of MALFUNCTIONAL equipment, SHUT IT DOWN.
I wonder, if they hinder the car enough, wouldn't that cause the remote operator to connect to it? Sounds like you've now identified a driver :-)
I would suspect they were already watching it. They pulled it over and it pulled over.
It’s easy just tow it!!! Let god sort it out because the tech is not there yet
Okay so they can't give it a citation. However aren't there seperate laws that could be employed? If a car is not roadworthy they are not allowed to let it continue the journey. Like without light at night, or with a missing wheel.
When a driverless car autonomously breaks rules of the road, doesn't that make it a malfunctioning piece of equipment. One that is dangerous to let continue?
Considering it's California the uturn was illegal only because the cop said so.
Issue a ticket to the owner of the car. Let them contest in court that they were not driving it.
May you live in stupid times.