Seems like they usually leave out the "also" because apparently two things can't be bad at the same time. Wouldn't it be great to live in a world where only one thing is bad? I expect it'd be simpler, at least.
Imagine thinking that people are opposed to post-scarcity economics, and not the whole "let's kill everyone who disagrees with us until we achieve such conditions"
Go look up to see what China did during the great leap forward and cultural revolution. They killed about 30 million of their own people. I would like you to post a source proving that the United States murdered 30 million of its own people within the past 150 years, as well as persecuting tens of millions of people and sending millions of children from cities to be reeducated with forced labor on camps after being separated from their parents. Hundreds of thousands of intellectuals were murdered for being... Intellectuals.
The only thing that comes close was slavery and the Japanese internment during world War II. However, slavery was abolished over 150 years ago, and during the Japanese internment families were generally kept together and they were not forcibly reeducated.
"Please tell me a time when.this country did terrible things b-b-but only in this certain half of the country's existence!! Otherwise it's cheating!!1!"
Conveniently chose a time right where you can ignore the Slavery and the Trail of Tears (% population wise that was just as bad). Not to mention the mass Native American "reeducation" and ripping them away from their families to get a "proper white education"
Every government has done terrible things. The US, China, and Russia are among the worst. We can argue about what is "worse." But that is completely subjective. China literally just did much of what the US did, but on a larger scale 150 years later and with different technology.
Arguably Russia was the worst of them all, but literally all 3 are bad. America pulled itself out of that era and into corporate indetured servitude era of corporations committing genocides and coups in other countries. Personally I think that China is worse than the US and Russia dwarfs both of them, but just because one is maybe marginally worse doesn't mean the other wasn't/isn't bad.
Except they’re nowhere nearly comparable. The US is pretty bad but China is an authoritarian state with internet censorship and state-controlled companies.
The “America also bad” argument feels like a mass murderer saying “well you stabbed a guy 10 years ago, you’re no different!”.
I mean that’s the point of the comment. Any conversation about China’s shortcomings necessarily turns into “but US also bad” as if that’s proving a point we don’t already know. This is Lemmy, not the CPAC convention. We’re probably all pretty on board with nuanced positions on the evils of imperial states
The one they replied to may have been criticizing "whataboutism", but it could also be (mis)interpreted as implying the USA has not had similar problems.
But who hasn’t killed their citizens in a simple misunderstanding? Or, if that doesn’t work, America Also Bad! \s
Well, the citizens they killed were literally firing on them and killed around 150 soldiers. Meanwhile the military for the most part did not have guns. Not saying it is justified even then to use military force on striking workers, but a hell of a lot more justified than western media claims. Oh yeah, and literally no college students died that day, as well as nobody within a mile of Tianenmen Square.
The Solidarity movement, started in 1980 as a series of labor strikes, formed into a large trade union and then a political movement demanding workers' rights, actual worker control over means of production, and similar socialist policies. It finally forced and won a public election in 1989 (on the very same day of the Tiananmen square crackdown) which in turn led to the end of communist (and Russian) rule in Poland.
When oliver Anthony sings that he's an old world man struggling to live in a new world, all I think about is how strong the old world fought to unionize the work force. I didn't even know about it until this year. The 1900s labour movement was intense and interesing. Especially reading about it from the future which helps put a lot of current politics into perspective.
This. Unless your use/purchase directly supports something you disagree with, people shouldn’t be worried so much. Companies and organizations are huge. They are all going to contain shitty people.
If you are on the internet, you have no choice but to indirectly supporting shitty people.
If you are worried about that do actual politics, not this ‘you eat ChikFilA you monster’ type shit.0
Oh I know all about that. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy clowning on tankies on lemmy.ml so hard.
Fun fact: the .ml TLD is officially designated as belonging to Mali; the lemmy devs chose it as an acronym for “Marxist-Leninist”. This caused problems very recently when Mali suddenly re-exerted control of their TLD, where previously they did not take an active hand in its management.
I’ll copy the top comment there, because it’s actually kind of important if you’re at all into web infra or self-hosting:
Using ccTLDs when you have no relationship with the country is just asking for trouble. Comes across as naive and unprofessional, although I've seen many serious infrastructure built upon .co and .io names.
i think the Marxist Leninist thing is disputed, It's just a rumour and we don't know if the devs chose it for that or they chose it because it was free on freenom
Maybe I'm just tired of hearing of these lies, I know china didn't do it, and I know the story is a myth concocted from bits of reality and western media embellishing and skewing details. I'm really just trying to get a rise out of ya'll.
But how are we fascists? You think we are lying at all hours even when you aren't looking? It would be easier to just be a fascist if that was the truth. Those movements already exist: Nazbols, MAGA communists, and the like. Why aren't we them? Why do we always separate ourselves and constantly denounce them? Why do we go through what would be a ridiculous amount of effort to pretend to be communists? Pretend to be leftists? This is a ridiculous assertion in every way!
I dare you to spend 5 minutes on hexbear, minutes not trying to hate us, and just look around. I may be scum yes, but I don't think they are, far from it in fact. Maybe you'll see that, or you'll just keep being the way you are:
Blind and hateful, lashing out at whatever you don't understand.
No. how could I? Armored tanks are EXCLUSIVELY implements of peace, they are NEVER used lethally or to inflict harm. The Chinese military DEFINITELY brought in armored tanks for peaceful, humanitarian reasons.
Did you cleverly infer that from the fact that I said, "no"? Or were their other subtle clues you picked up on?
The pictures of dead, maimed, mutilated civilian corpses and crushed bicycles/cars were actually staged by the protesters to frame the kind, peaceful Chinese military, who were only there to have friendly dialogue with the protestors.
No, sorry. As I said a few times, I don't keep a file of NSFL grotesque photos like that. If the photos already posted in this thread aren't enough, my adding the other won't be. If you can't convince them with the mountains of clear and simple evidence, you can't convince Holocaust Deniers, Flat Earthers, or Tienanmen Square deniers with any evidence no matter how disgusting.
Not denying it happened, but I couldn't find any images of such. Although it won't do much to change the minds of some people, linking or embedding the actual image would make your statement much stronger :)
Someone already produced the "crushed bicycle" picture here with a couple crushed/mutilated bodies. It's not the only one, but it strikes a chord of being the least NSFL while still proving the event.
Looks like they were posted here after my comment. Pro-CCP people are probably still going to find a way to justify it for the greater good or something like that, but at least now they can't deny there are photos.
I'm getting bugged for the other photo heavy now, by people telling me they can give back with photos of "the mob burning people". Pro-CCP people don't even consider the basically-confession and disagreement of the leader of the Communist party (which led to his long-term house-arrest).
Does that whole section quote only a single source in Chinese that I can't read? Yes. You can believe it or not, I don't care. Assuming that your curiosity into why people believe that protesters got mowed down by tanks is genuine, this should answer your question.
That's a fairly weak counterpoint. It seems really meaningless who died or didn't, the state crushed protests. A lot of ml assertion about the west is accurate but then to turn around to be blindly nationalist. Additionally, Mao was not a good leader. He likely was fairly correct in his goals, but a failure in methodology and leadership. Largely because of nationalism and the state.
What are you even responding to? I didn't say anything about Mao, who died vs surviving, or what people think about the West. I wasn't even making a counterpoint, I was indulging someone's genuine curiosity.
From my conversations with mainland Chinese, they often tout the line that the US was somehow involved, so it was partly an excusable defense of the homeland against dangerously co-opted students. That said, most acknowledge that it was pretty bad. But these are also well-educated Chinese working abroad, so I assume the majority of Chinese don’t know much.
One story I heard retold by an English teacher working in Nanjing that I used to know was about the experience of one of the people involved in the protests…or at least they were an academic in Beijing at the time of the massacre. They were really depressed 20 years later and felt that nobody around them, particularly their students, knew anything.
The people I have spoken to in China understand something happened, and most of them know that it was the suppression of a student protest movement. From there the knowledge diverges as to what kind of protest movement and how violent was the suppression and whether it was justified. My family will kind of halfheartedly repeat some version of the party line but acknowledge it was a fucked up situation, and they also understand that the censorship surrounding it is awkward and unnecessary.
Generally the Chinese I have spoken to are mostly aware of and opposed to the CCP's censorship, but they also don't really like to talk about it for obvious reasons.
That young and foolish people around the world get easily manipulated by Western propaganda should be clear to anyone by now. If those dumb kids got their Amerika slums and ghettos they so wished with that immitation of the statue of liberty, they would understand. But by then, they would have no way of going back to socialism. This is what the government tried to do and since they lost narrative supremacy, they used force. For the good of everyone.
For those not around when that happened, i remember it this way, after 20 years of booze, weed & hookers:
The student protest was extremely peaceful and organized. There were student delegations that would report up to student representatives, educatio delegation, housing delegation, for example. The representatives were negotiating with Party people. It was unclear at the time if the Party people were indicative of the top brass. But there was a worldwide feeling something good and right might be changing in China. If I recall correctly this went on for weeks, so the implications were setting in.
Then it all changed when the Fire Nation attacked.
What the video & still represent is not 1 man facing a line of tanks. It a culmination of a generation of students frustrated enough but clever enough to find a way to negotiate a change and when the Army came in they knew they failed. The world knew they failed. The question was how badly that failure was. There were a few days when nothing happened after this video. Then it happened all at once. And the rest as they say is History -- repression, violence, killing, abductions, lost family members, and rewriting history.
Like the Velvet Revolutions of the Middle East, it was a short time of hope for a better future, for the students & for their nation.
That feeling stays & that feeling is what China wants their populace to forget - and you forget by meming this historic picture without context.
P.S I don't know if the man was ever found out, but I hope he stays anonymous.
Oh sick link, the first report is literally the Murderers' "Offical and True ;)" accounting of what happened.
It's genuinely entertaining to read (in a very dark way), how their words are so blatantly flowery and dictatorial, I can't believe that those CCP chucklefucks actually expected to be taken at their word lmao
Like who other than a troll or a moron would buy that report XD
You think the CPC writes the CIAs reports for them? What a weird take. I'm not sure which telegram you clicked on but since this is true for all the top results I'm fairly confident you read communication from the USA embassy to the USA secretary of state's office.
Those poor soldiers that were attacked in their tanks :( They were just visiting Beijing as tourists that day and had no orders to violently suppress any protests. Total misunderstanding.
Your guess was as good as mine, he seem to hand the tanker groceries at one point, seems to gesture them to go back to the square, and has what looks like a full on convo with them.
Wowsers, I never knew the tanks were there as an honour guard to politely support the protestors. I suppose a lesser country would see sending tanks against the people as pure cowardice, but that time tanks were sent to show support to the people protesting against them! Very upright and cool!
Nothing happened on Tienanmen square, how naive are you all. The British ambassador inventer a tad too detailed horror stories, based on "trusted sources". In fact, the students protesting killed a PLA soldier but after a talk with the intervention force decided to clear square peacefully. The deaths happened elsewhere but we have almost no information about those. People protested against different things, some were for liberal freedom, some for more communism. We know what told us the Western "objective" press.
Inaccurate, yes, but I personally see the connection with the almost religious dedication to their ideology. Anything is permitted and forgiven, so long as it is in the name of [insert ideology here]
It's all a farce. Spend some time on Hexbear and you'll see where I'm coming from (actually, don't, unless you want to get irrationally angry). Those people aren't real communists; they're fascists pretending to be communists. All they ever do is act like aggressive douchebags and talk shit about "liberals". I've seen this exact behavior over on /r/The_Donald and on Fox news. They're not even trying to hide their true colors. Hell, one of them even told me that republicans are liberals. 🤣 (edit:Screenshot in case link goes down)
Yank interacts with the real world for the first time.
Conservatives can be a variety of things, even communists. What you refer to as conservative is completely unrelated to conservativism and is just people who vote for a particular liberal party in your one ideology two party system. You're a brainwashed populace thought to hate knowledge and learning so that you can be maximally exploited. You do not have any political understanding. Your election cycle engages with identity politics because they're afraid of mentioning policy in case people start looking up what words mean. All your news sources are propaganda and you live in the most authoritarian country on earth ruled by dictators who do not value your opinion or needs.
You can measure these. They're not just words. For the first, you can compare the subset of the population who are experiencing some form of correction, be it prison or otherwise to the total population. For the second, you can compare opinion polls to the actual policy being enacted. In both cases you score as bad as it's possible to score.
And finally, everyone who supports liberal policies is a liberal. This includes people who are conservative in the global meaning of the word, but support, let's say, a humane social democratic system with strong safety nets, but who's backbone is an inhumane system of exploitation in the global south. This includes someone who is socially progressive and wants major political changes, but who's fiscal politics are that of neo-liberalism.
I wonder why an event that happened almost before I was born is so important to some people here. Why aren't we showcasing how monstrous Hitler was burning people for racism then? That's far more fitting to the situation of most western countries that are all leaning on fascism and racism. Some western countries like France are not far from crushing protestors with tanks btw.
But I guess the cold war world of 40 years ago is more comfortable. There was this nice black and white taint where capitalists were the good guys against evil communists. And we must now bring back all the sins of China and USSR to never forget what they did, so can be blind to what's happening now I guess.
People throwing "tankies" everywhere are worth no more than any Russian troll honestly.
To answer yours, maybe it’s because Germany has literal museums dedicated to education about the horrors of its past while China tries to hide them and has that same party in power. That’s slightly different.
Also don’t fool yourself. The Cold War was capitalists against capitalists that called themselves communists. Real communism never existed for more than a week in any country in the world.
He. If you want to criticise China you should talk about ouïghours or Hong Kong. Tiananmen is irrelevant. It's as relevant as slavery in the US. Aren't you busy killing black people these days btw?
I don't care where you live. You're not Chinese yet you care about tiananmen apparently. But you don't care about slavery in the US apparently. Nor about fascism eventhough it's making a comeback in all western countries.
Which proves my point: tiananmen is not about China. It's a symbol of communist oppression. And a Godwin point to end any discussion about communism. And a liberal fuck you to all leftists and communists of lemmy. There's a reason I've never read "tankie" before I read lemmy.
I care about slavery and I care about fascism. Am I not allowed to care about those things and at the same time about the fact that the second-most populated country in the world is a literal dictatorship?
Again, there was nothing communist about Tiananmen, nor there is anything communist about the current CCP. It’s just fascism under a different name. Invent a time machine and bring back Marx to see this shit, he definitely wouldn’t be happy about it.
That's pure anti-china propaganda. Anti-left propaganda even. It's a Godwin point.
There's a saying in French : it's easier to see the straw on the neighbor nose than the beam you have in the eye.
If you want to criticised China you should talk about the current, these days genocide they're doing. Or about Hong Kong. Tiananmen is a Godwin point, in my generation you'd only know about it if you're exposed to liberal propaganda. Because as a historical event it is irrelevant.
I can’t wait to hear about Spez’s new 5-year plan!
Based on that one sub he used to mod, he and Mao might have something else in common. At least a Spez 5-year plan only risks causing a content famine.
Hexbear thinks spez is based af
You probably do not know about lemmygrad. It’s like the MAGA version of /r/The_Putin
Spez' thoughts & Wisdom about Musk & Twitter:
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/reddit-blackout-protest-private-ceo-elon-musk-huffman-rcna89700
But who hasn’t killed their citizens in a simple misunderstanding? Or, if that doesn’t work, America Also Bad! \s
Seems like they usually leave out the "also" because apparently two things can't be bad at the same time. Wouldn't it be great to live in a world where only one thing is bad? I expect it'd be simpler, at least.
I mean, China fucking sucks and is a shit authoritarian statist government but let's not pretend America hasn't done similar things.
Ever heard the stories of how America won the right to unions?
Columbine Mine Massacre
Ludlow Massacre
Thibodaux Massacre
Battle of Blair Mountain
Herrin Massacre
Hundreds of people killed in total because they were protesting.
The difference in outcome is that back then the technology was more of a level playing field.
Those things? Also bad.
Incredible that two things can simultaneously be shit, but it’s true.
Congrats. That is exactly what I wrote.
Half this site can't accomplish holding two thoughts at once
thats what we're saying lol
Weird how I only ever hear one of those events used to dismiss an entire system of economic organization though
I guess you’re not listening then because “capitalism fucking sucks and is responsible for countless atrocities” is a pretty common tale these days.
Hey man anarcho-syndacalism slaps, no worries if that's your preference.
Imagine thinking that people are opposed to post-scarcity economics, and not the whole "let's kill everyone who disagrees with us until we achieve such conditions"
"Just wake me up when we get there" 👍
I use those events in the US (and many more) to condem capitalism. I also use Tianamen (and others) to condem state capitalism.
Can always rely on there being at least one person ... "but the USA did XYZ." Doesn't change what happened in 1989.
No it doesn't. But the same people who whine and cry about people using whataboutism in favor of China do the EXACT same thing in favor of the US.
They are both shit. Everyone is tired of each side pretending that only one side is shit.
Go look up to see what China did during the great leap forward and cultural revolution. They killed about 30 million of their own people. I would like you to post a source proving that the United States murdered 30 million of its own people within the past 150 years, as well as persecuting tens of millions of people and sending millions of children from cities to be reeducated with forced labor on camps after being separated from their parents. Hundreds of thousands of intellectuals were murdered for being... Intellectuals.
The only thing that comes close was slavery and the Japanese internment during world War II. However, slavery was abolished over 150 years ago, and during the Japanese internment families were generally kept together and they were not forcibly reeducated.
"Please tell me a time when.this country did terrible things b-b-but only in this certain half of the country's existence!! Otherwise it's cheating!!1!"
Conveniently chose a time right where you can ignore the Slavery and the Trail of Tears (% population wise that was just as bad). Not to mention the mass Native American "reeducation" and ripping them away from their families to get a "proper white education"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools
Every government has done terrible things. The US, China, and Russia are among the worst. We can argue about what is "worse." But that is completely subjective. China literally just did much of what the US did, but on a larger scale 150 years later and with different technology.
Arguably Russia was the worst of them all, but literally all 3 are bad. America pulled itself out of that era and into corporate indetured servitude era of corporations committing genocides and coups in other countries. Personally I think that China is worse than the US and Russia dwarfs both of them, but just because one is maybe marginally worse doesn't mean the other wasn't/isn't bad.
Except they’re nowhere nearly comparable. The US is pretty bad but China is an authoritarian state with internet censorship and state-controlled companies.
The “America also bad” argument feels like a mass murderer saying “well you stabbed a guy 10 years ago, you’re no different!”.
Do u know banana republics, thats a rad story. i think u should look up what usa have done to south american contries.
it doesn't, but for sure dispels the myth that the US isn't evil.
I mean that’s the point of the comment. Any conversation about China’s shortcomings necessarily turns into “but US also bad” as if that’s proving a point we don’t already know. This is Lemmy, not the CPAC convention. We’re probably all pretty on board with nuanced positions on the evils of imperial states
No one here holds that myth
This is so off topic I read it in grampa Simpson's voice.
Stop smoking the Copium.
The one they replied to may have been criticizing "whataboutism", but it could also be (mis)interpreted as implying the USA has not had similar problems.
Well, the citizens they killed were literally firing on them and killed around 150 soldiers. Meanwhile the military for the most part did not have guns. Not saying it is justified even then to use military force on striking workers, but a hell of a lot more justified than western media claims. Oh yeah, and literally no college students died that day, as well as nobody within a mile of Tianenmen Square.
Who said that
Ah yes the one demonstration to push a government to the left and organize labor that tankies don’t like acknowledging
No, there was another one, interestingly at the exact same time, in Poland. They don't like that one either.
Could you be more specific? I hadn't heard about that before
The Solidarity movement, started in 1980 as a series of labor strikes, formed into a large trade union and then a political movement demanding workers' rights, actual worker control over means of production, and similar socialist policies. It finally forced and won a public election in 1989 (on the very same day of the Tiananmen square crackdown) which in turn led to the end of communist (and Russian) rule in Poland.
Quite ironic, when you think about it… - the working class defeating the communist party!
Tankies when the people being told heirarchy is bad and steals the value of your labor when people actually believe it and try to abolish it:
Also tankies claiming to be anti-imperialist when people want to leave your empire.
Having to live in an authoritarian shithole takes its toll on you after a while.
When oliver Anthony sings that he's an old world man struggling to live in a new world, all I think about is how strong the old world fought to unionize the work force. I didn't even know about it until this year. The 1900s labour movement was intense and interesing. Especially reading about it from the future which helps put a lot of current politics into perspective.
They demanded this, won, and then ignored all of it and introduced neoliberal capitalism pretty much straight away?
Only idiots want communism.
You mean the massive labor strikes calling for the return of the socialist government after inflation skyrocketed 400% (or 300% idc)
Bro China is not real, it's just the back of Taiwan.
Taiwan numba 1
Actually Taiwan is China as in its the actual legitimate government of China not the occupiers in Beijing
I wouldn't call the ROG illegitimate since they won the civil war and they are recognised by pretty much every country in the world.
That doesn't mean I like them more though.
Edit: PRC not ROG lol.
The Republic of Gamers won the Civil War? (/s)
oh yes the far right nationalists who lost the civil war are the legitimate government.
i'm an anarchist. how would you describe your politics?
I mean, all those people are generally dead or in their '90s now, so whatever.
As of the writing of this comment, 3 tankies have seen this post
Edit: T+15h: 35 tankies (829 up). And 5 of those saw this comment.
I don't see any reason to care about that as long as they aren't forcing their opinions on anyone tbh.
This. Unless your use/purchase directly supports something you disagree with, people shouldn’t be worried so much. Companies and organizations are huge. They are all going to contain shitty people.
If you are on the internet, you have no choice but to indirectly supporting shitty people.
If you are worried about that do actual politics, not this ‘you eat ChikFilA you monster’ type shit.0
Yup. And they literally gave us the tools to take our toys and go home to make our own fun if we don't like the way they run Lemmy.ml.
Lemmy is open source so it doesn't matter. Devs come and go.
Oh I know all about that. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy clowning on tankies on lemmy.ml so hard.
Fun fact: the
.mlTLD is officially designated as belonging to Mali; the lemmy devs chose it as an acronym for “Marxist-Leninist”. This caused problems very recently when Mali suddenly re-exerted control of their TLD, where previously they did not take an active hand in its management.I’ll copy the top comment there, because it’s actually kind of important if you’re at all into web infra or self-hosting:
i think the Marxist Leninist thing is disputed, It's just a rumour and we don't know if the devs chose it for that or they chose it because it was free on freenom
It’s a rumor, but the devs themselves have said they’re strongly Marxist-Leninist
I heard it was cuz .ML was free to get a domain from.
I don’t see why I should care, as long as their not assholes, not breaking their own rules, and not abusing their powers as devs.
Why would I care?
hexbear alt spotted!! this is the most popular comment that those fascits/bigots/neo-terrorists post in any thread that makes them salty!
¿
lmao that was my first thought, this comment section should be very interesting
Given that they defederated from Lemmy.world (at least Hexbear did, idk about lemmygrad), probably not
And thank fuck for that. Site is better off without them.
Lol, for all their enthusiastic talk about "let's go dunk on the libs", that sure happened quickly.
thanks for the affirmation
you need to go back to reddit, people like you are exactly why it became so shit
Exhibit A.
bro I was purged 6 times for death threats and "propaganda" you got rookie numbers
Sounds like you have issues that should keep you out of the public (even social media), and I'm not talking about your gender identity.
No, YOU should go back to Reddit.
The mods are asleep. Crosspost this to all the lemmy.ml communities.
Marxists don't sleep, especially us trans ones, our depression doesn't let us!
You're not a real Marxist; you're a Fascist cosplaying as one. Anyone who spends 5 minutes on Hexbear can figure it out. You're not fooling anyone.
Edit: Lots of people replying to me who are in denial, I see.
I've seen every post of theirs in this thread and nothing seems fascist to me, perhaps you merely disagree with them.
Actually go to Hexbear and you'll see what I mean.
I'm aware that radicals exist
fooling
You really think that, don't you?
Maybe I'm just tired of hearing of these lies, I know china didn't do it, and I know the story is a myth concocted from bits of reality and western media embellishing and skewing details. I'm really just trying to get a rise out of ya'll.
But how are we fascists? You think we are lying at all hours even when you aren't looking? It would be easier to just be a fascist if that was the truth. Those movements already exist: Nazbols, MAGA communists, and the like. Why aren't we them? Why do we always separate ourselves and constantly denounce them? Why do we go through what would be a ridiculous amount of effort to pretend to be communists? Pretend to be leftists? This is a ridiculous assertion in every way!
I dare you to spend 5 minutes on hexbear, minutes not trying to hate us, and just look around. I may be scum yes, but I don't think they are, far from it in fact. Maybe you'll see that, or you'll just keep being the way you are:
Blind and hateful, lashing out at whatever you don't understand.
.ml readers interpretation: Tanks (fighting for democracy) brutally killed students
Don't lump us all in with those naive authoritarian children. Some of us believe the internet deserves a better class of communist.
Or in reality, tanks stop, the driver gets out and talks to the guy.
Bro show non faulty evidence tanks killed anyone in the square
Do you really believe that is what happened? That tanks were used to kill protesters?
No the tanks were there as part of a humanitarian mission /s
No. how could I? Armored tanks are EXCLUSIVELY implements of peace, they are NEVER used lethally or to inflict harm. The Chinese military DEFINITELY brought in armored tanks for peaceful, humanitarian reasons.
Did you cleverly infer that from the fact that I said, "no"? Or were their other subtle clues you picked up on?
The pictures of dead, maimed, mutilated civilian corpses and crushed bicycles/cars were actually staged by the protesters to frame the kind, peaceful Chinese military, who were only there to have friendly dialogue with the protestors.
Please tell me you aren't this dumb
I mean, there is that photo of a bunch of crushed human bodies under tank treads that nobody likes to reference.
As it's not NSFL, I'm not posting. After seeing that image, I lost all doubt that the massacre happened exactly as we know.
And no, I don't intend this to convince you. I don't think seeing the photo would convince you either.
where, show me this photo
I can give you ones of mobs burning random people alive on the street
No, sorry. As I said a few times, I don't keep a file of NSFL grotesque photos like that. If the photos already posted in this thread aren't enough, my adding the other won't be. If you can't convince them with the mountains of clear and simple evidence, you can't convince Holocaust Deniers, Flat Earthers, or Tienanmen Square deniers with any evidence no matter how disgusting.
I love it I'm a nazi and flat earther now lol
There are actual images of that happening. It's genuinely an undisputable event.
Not denying it happened, but I couldn't find any images of such. Although it won't do much to change the minds of some people, linking or embedding the actual image would make your statement much stronger :)
Someone already produced the "crushed bicycle" picture here with a couple crushed/mutilated bodies. It's not the only one, but it strikes a chord of being the least NSFL while still proving the event.
Looks like they were posted here after my comment. Pro-CCP people are probably still going to find a way to justify it for the greater good or something like that, but at least now they can't deny there are photos.
I'm getting bugged for the other photo heavy now, by people telling me they can give back with photos of "the mob burning people". Pro-CCP people don't even consider the basically-confession and disagreement of the leader of the Communist party (which led to his long-term house-arrest).
https://archive.ph/7Tdzh
specifically:
::: spoiler spoiler :::
Any other questions?
CCP agent detected ( •_•)>⌐■-■
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_at_the_1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre#Tank_encounters_students_at_Liubukou and other accounts.
Does that whole section quote only a single source in Chinese that I can't read? Yes. You can believe it or not, I don't care. Assuming that your curiosity into why people believe that protesters got mowed down by tanks is genuine, this should answer your question.
That's a fairly weak counterpoint. It seems really meaningless who died or didn't, the state crushed protests. A lot of ml assertion about the west is accurate but then to turn around to be blindly nationalist. Additionally, Mao was not a good leader. He likely was fairly correct in his goals, but a failure in methodology and leadership. Largely because of nationalism and the state.
What are you even responding to? I didn't say anything about Mao, who died vs surviving, or what people think about the West. I wasn't even making a counterpoint, I was indulging someone's genuine curiosity.
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West Taiwan did some bad shit.
I wonder what actual Chinese people think, anyone originally from China able to weigh in?
According to my aunt, whose parents fled the Cultural Revolution when she was a teenager:
It's like if Chinese people kept trying to give you shit about the Kent State massacre and not Vietnam itself.
That's interesting.
lmao I will strive to turn this reactionary in to the CPC
This is why everyone hates you and the working class rejects you fucking stop with the larping
Nah, irl they hate me cause im trans girl with autism
cool name tho, Imma write that one down next to Privatized Sun
From my conversations with mainland Chinese, they often tout the line that the US was somehow involved, so it was partly an excusable defense of the homeland against dangerously co-opted students. That said, most acknowledge that it was pretty bad. But these are also well-educated Chinese working abroad, so I assume the majority of Chinese don’t know much.
One story I heard retold by an English teacher working in Nanjing that I used to know was about the experience of one of the people involved in the protests…or at least they were an academic in Beijing at the time of the massacre. They were really depressed 20 years later and felt that nobody around them, particularly their students, knew anything.
The people I have spoken to in China understand something happened, and most of them know that it was the suppression of a student protest movement. From there the knowledge diverges as to what kind of protest movement and how violent was the suppression and whether it was justified. My family will kind of halfheartedly repeat some version of the party line but acknowledge it was a fucked up situation, and they also understand that the censorship surrounding it is awkward and unnecessary.
Generally the Chinese I have spoken to are mostly aware of and opposed to the CCP's censorship, but they also don't really like to talk about it for obvious reasons.
That young and foolish people around the world get easily manipulated by Western propaganda should be clear to anyone by now. If those dumb kids got their Amerika slums and ghettos they so wished with that immitation of the statue of liberty, they would understand. But by then, they would have no way of going back to socialism. This is what the government tried to do and since they lost narrative supremacy, they used force. For the good of everyone.
閉嘴書呆子
干嘛那么凶，别人就问一句问题
未曾设想在这里能看见中文回复 笑死
Never saw the full video... You can hear machine gun fire towards the end.
Has the 50 cent party found us yet? 🤣
we're in your walls
please pass some cheese through the outlets, we get hungry sometimes
Starve.
Can we morph the Tiananmen Square into a hyperbolic shape next?
Non Euclidean 4D Tiananmen spheroid.
2d citizens afterwards though
For those not around when that happened, i remember it this way, after 20 years of booze, weed & hookers:
The student protest was extremely peaceful and organized. There were student delegations that would report up to student representatives, educatio delegation, housing delegation, for example. The representatives were negotiating with Party people. It was unclear at the time if the Party people were indicative of the top brass. But there was a worldwide feeling something good and right might be changing in China. If I recall correctly this went on for weeks, so the implications were setting in.
Then it all changed when the Fire Nation attacked.
What the video & still represent is not 1 man facing a line of tanks. It a culmination of a generation of students frustrated enough but clever enough to find a way to negotiate a change and when the Army came in they knew they failed. The world knew they failed. The question was how badly that failure was. There were a few days when nothing happened after this video. Then it happened all at once. And the rest as they say is History -- repression, violence, killing, abductions, lost family members, and rewriting history.
Like the Velvet Revolutions of the Middle East, it was a short time of hope for a better future, for the students & for their nation.
That feeling stays & that feeling is what China wants their populace to forget - and you forget by meming this historic picture without context.
P.S I don't know if the man was ever found out, but I hope he stays anonymous.
Are you at least paid to write this emotional propaganda fantasy? Chinese students didn't give a damn how you felt.
Is the Tiananmen Sphere the rebuke to the flat-earthers who insist it is really the Tiananmen Plane?
That's just a Tiananmen 2d circle with stretching though.
Me when
When I discover G'MIC
We were all on vacation! In Poland!
That’s one frame of a video.
https://youtu.be/YeFzeNAHEhU
They guy cloned the tank to enter it.
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B-But China is free and good...
Here's some more information about what happened if you're curious. https://search.wikileaks.org/?query=Tiananmen+Square&publication_type%5B%5D=6&order_by=most_relevant#results
Oh sick link, the first report is literally the Murderers' "Offical and True ;)" accounting of what happened.
It's genuinely entertaining to read (in a very dark way), how their words are so blatantly flowery and dictatorial, I can't believe that those CCP chucklefucks actually expected to be taken at their word lmao
Like who other than a troll or a moron would buy that report XD
You think the CPC writes the CIAs reports for them? What a weird take. I'm not sure which telegram you clicked on but since this is true for all the top results I'm fairly confident you read communication from the USA embassy to the USA secretary of state's office.
People just don't hang and burn a cop without some serious grievances or mental disorders.
Protip: if the government response is tanks, it's unlikely that mental illness is part of the equation.
sorry if the reality of the situation, which you came here to laugh at is upsetting.
Those poor soldiers that were attacked in their tanks :( They were just visiting Beijing as tourists that day and had no orders to violently suppress any protests. Total misunderstanding.
https://archive.ph/7Tdzh
specifically:
::: spoiler spoiler :::
Totally justified, obviously!
whataboutism
I wonder what happens when you watch the full video
the one where the tanks politely wait for the man to leave and then continue on their way, away from the square.
I wonder what the man was protesting 🤔
Your guess was as good as mine, he seem to hand the tanker groceries at one point, seems to gesture them to go back to the square, and has what looks like a full on convo with them.
We don't know what he said so its up in the air
Likely simply letting one of the tankers know that their fly was undone!
idk some people are weird like that
fact is that the tanks waited for him to leave when they had no reason to, didn't engage him at all, and then went on their merry way.
I'd like to see a Palestinian kid be able to do the same to zionists
Unfortunately the students that could have brought peace to the middle east were horribly crushed the day before! Shame, really.
who lol, student protests never go anywhere
Especially when they’re horribly crushed!
Wowsers, I never knew the tanks were there as an honour guard to politely support the protestors. I suppose a lesser country would see sending tanks against the people as pure cowardice, but that time tanks were sent to show support to the people protesting against them! Very upright and cool!
holy fuck I heard lemmygrad was hard left, but actually denying well known massacres....
just wow
We don't deny it, but doubt its extent
Nothing happened on Tienanmen square, how naive are you all. The British ambassador inventer a tad too detailed horror stories, based on "trusted sources". In fact, the students protesting killed a PLA soldier but after a talk with the intervention force decided to clear square peacefully. The deaths happened elsewhere but we have almost no information about those. People protested against different things, some were for liberal freedom, some for more communism. We know what told us the Western "objective" press.
Your memes are just objectively cringe
also love crashes it allows the government to nationalize the private sector even more
also you really think the cpc cares about your existence at all and to pay us losers to bother you? Give me any evidence of them doing so.
Fuck off tankie.
The Crown did nothing wrong :( /s
Oh god you libs drive me nuts this is hilarious
honestly I really don't give a shit if they did or didn't
Shut the fuck up, MAGAt. Go back to Hexbear.
How did you manage to get MAGA out of someone with a hammer & sickle in their username? You arrived at a total opposite.
Inaccurate, yes, but I personally see the connection with the almost religious dedication to their ideology. Anything is permitted and forgiven, so long as it is in the name of [insert ideology here]
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
It's all a farce. Spend some time on Hexbear and you'll see where I'm coming from (actually, don't, unless you want to get irrationally angry). Those people aren't real communists; they're fascists pretending to be communists. All they ever do is act like aggressive douchebags and talk shit about "liberals". I've seen this exact behavior over on /r/The_Donald and on Fox news. They're not even trying to hide their true colors. Hell, one of them even told me that republicans are liberals. 🤣 (edit: Screenshot in case link goes down)
Not irrationally😊
Yank interacts with the real world for the first time.
Conservatives can be a variety of things, even communists. What you refer to as conservative is completely unrelated to conservativism and is just people who vote for a particular liberal party in your one ideology two party system. You're a brainwashed populace thought to hate knowledge and learning so that you can be maximally exploited. You do not have any political understanding. Your election cycle engages with identity politics because they're afraid of mentioning policy in case people start looking up what words mean. All your news sources are propaganda and you live in the most authoritarian country on earth ruled by dictators who do not value your opinion or needs.
You can measure these. They're not just words. For the first, you can compare the subset of the population who are experiencing some form of correction, be it prison or otherwise to the total population. For the second, you can compare opinion polls to the actual policy being enacted. In both cases you score as bad as it's possible to score.
And finally, everyone who supports liberal policies is a liberal. This includes people who are conservative in the global meaning of the word, but support, let's say, a humane social democratic system with strong safety nets, but who's backbone is an inhumane system of exploitation in the global south. This includes someone who is socially progressive and wants major political changes, but who's fiscal politics are that of neo-liberalism.
P.S. Everyone hates liberals.
oh my god the only people who like liberals are liberals
EVERYONE ELSE HATES LIBERALS
I will tread where I please
So the west is still hunting communists to this day? Easier than fixing climate or providing healthcare I guess.
Predictable "West bad" comment when criticizing a massacre committed by the CCP
Care to explain what was communist in the event except the name of the party that enacted the massacre and maybe some of the people who died?
I wonder why an event that happened almost before I was born is so important to some people here. Why aren't we showcasing how monstrous Hitler was burning people for racism then? That's far more fitting to the situation of most western countries that are all leaning on fascism and racism. Some western countries like France are not far from crushing protestors with tanks btw.
But I guess the cold war world of 40 years ago is more comfortable. There was this nice black and white taint where capitalists were the good guys against evil communists. And we must now bring back all the sins of China and USSR to never forget what they did, so can be blind to what's happening now I guess.
People throwing "tankies" everywhere are worth no more than any Russian troll honestly.
You didn’t answer my question.
To answer yours, maybe it’s because Germany has literal museums dedicated to education about the horrors of its past while China tries to hide them and has that same party in power. That’s slightly different.
Also don’t fool yourself. The Cold War was capitalists against capitalists that called themselves communists. Real communism never existed for more than a week in any country in the world.
He. If you want to criticise China you should talk about ouïghours or Hong Kong. Tiananmen is irrelevant. It's as relevant as slavery in the US. Aren't you busy killing black people these days btw?
Definitely not as relevant since you can talk about slavery and it’s widely condemned (by the ruling party, at least).
I’m also not American, but nice try.
I don't care where you live. You're not Chinese yet you care about tiananmen apparently. But you don't care about slavery in the US apparently. Nor about fascism eventhough it's making a comeback in all western countries.
Which proves my point: tiananmen is not about China. It's a symbol of communist oppression. And a Godwin point to end any discussion about communism. And a liberal fuck you to all leftists and communists of lemmy. There's a reason I've never read "tankie" before I read lemmy.
I care about slavery and I care about fascism. Am I not allowed to care about those things and at the same time about the fact that the second-most populated country in the world is a literal dictatorship?
Again, there was nothing communist about Tiananmen, nor there is anything communist about the current CCP. It’s just fascism under a different name. Invent a time machine and bring back Marx to see this shit, he definitely wouldn’t be happy about it.
Jerk off with sandpaper.
Forbidden? Hahaha that's so funny!
That's pure anti-china propaganda. Anti-left propaganda even. It's a Godwin point.
There's a saying in French : it's easier to see the straw on the neighbor nose than the beam you have in the eye.
If you want to criticised China you should talk about the current, these days genocide they're doing. Or about Hong Kong. Tiananmen is a Godwin point, in my generation you'd only know about it if you're exposed to liberal propaganda. Because as a historical event it is irrelevant.
If Hitler or his party was still around and denying the Holocaust that that would be a comparable analogy. But it's not, so it isn't.
Huh?
Obvious troll is obvious.
The troll is the OP posting this picture if you ask me.
When OP is a Godwin point you know...
The real shit is always in the comments.