It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/08/dont-supersize-me-the-case-for-small-electric-cars-instead-of-big-suvs/Open linkView original on lemmy.world1094
Comments434https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/08/dont-supersize-me-the-case-for-small-electric-cars-instead-of-big-suvs/Open linkView original on lemmy.world
My previous car is a Yaris.
When I got the Yaris I heard people make snide comments like "Anyone see that big guy get out of that tiny car?" then gas prices went up and they became "Hey, what kind of MPG does that thing get?"
I like hatchbacks. Bigger is fine but nothing huge.
My current car is an '07 Yaris. It's totally bare bones, but everyone who has been in it comments on how spacious the interior is.
I've always driven small cars, because they're economical and I've never needed anything larger. I hate that small hatchbacks are so scarce in the US and that our roads are overrun with ludicrously huge pickups and SUVs. We transitioned from land yachts to small cars in the late 1970's and 1980's, we could do it again with the right incentives.
My current car is an ‘07 Yaris too. It’s also totally bare bones including manual windows and locks and no cruise control (the only feature I sometimes wish it had). It’s economical and much funner to try drive than most bigger cars, trucks, and SUVs. And on multiple occasions I have been able to parallel park it in tight spots that cars in front of me had to pass on.
I can't even remember what year mine was. It was the first year it was in the US. Was a decent car. Good milage. But it chewed through water pumps so bad. It was either loud squealing belt or too tight causing it to killed the pump. Never could get it "just right"
That's too bad. I have 189,000 miles on mine (304,000 km) and it's never let me down. I haven't had to do anything but regular maintenance on it. I wanted to replace it with something a bit newer and nicer, but had to replace the car my wife and daughter share, instead. Fortuately, I don't drive very much so it will probably hold out for a few more years.
Thats the way to be. I ignore the urge and ride whats paid off until it just doesn't make sense any more. The "newer spiffy" car models will still be around when its time.
I drive an Auris station wagon Hybrid (aka, the US Corolla iM with bigger boot). I had a chance to drive multiple Yaris generations and honestly I am always surprised by how roomy it is inside. They made a perfect use of space - way better than VW did with Polo (smaller Golf), that’s for sure…
I have a Yaris and think it's too big. It's 20cm longer than my previous car (2005 Clio) but somehow has less interior space, it feels cramped.
Got the same model in red but with the 1.5L engine from 2019. Love it. Already got 75k km and it’s still running like a charm.
Yaris gang rise up!
Want to trade my 09 in for a more recent model, hatchback would be ideal
The ease of driving and parking in a car that small is insane. I thought my little Outlander Sport was a big difference from my last car, then I saw my buddy's Yaris easily make a U turn on a narrow 2 lane road.
I love that this has become the hatchback and Yaris love thread. As a GTI owner it makes me happy. I do not want nor need to go any bigger. It's almost the perfect car.
My Yaris is actually older than me. so old in fact, that it was called "vitz" and/or "echo" in some countries. i am the 4th owner. had to replace the starter, all the fluids and the clutch (cuz old people). best car ever. it has around 100.000 km on it and runs like it rolled out of the factory just yesterday. considering we euros pay up to 7€ per gallon it's good i still get around 40mpg out of it. love that thing.
Just got a ford focus hatchback last year after a 95 suburban. Love it. Fits everywhere and fun to drive
As a taller woman my wife was against us getting a subcompact until I took her to test drive it thinking I wouldn’t fit. Between seeing how comfortable and efficient it was she was entirely on board
Honda Fit gangg
Americans need to embrace public transit. We need trains that don't completely suck in both speed and schedule reliability.
We're never going to convince a lot of folks to leave their lifted F-150 or massive Suburban behind for a small car. But quality, affordable public transit that is not only efficient but saves money over owning a car would actually make a difference. We're more likely to be able to get people to just leave the F-150 in the driveway and eventually move away from it.
Much better for the environment, too, and reduces traffic / congestion, etc. I agree smaller cars would be good, but the goalpost should be getting away from the automobile.
I mean, I think this is what they're saying, but yeah.
Yeah. I probably should have been more detailed in my comment, but I did not mean embrace it as it is. I mean investing in it and making it competitive. I don't think it's embraceable in its current form.
Make it good and people will use it. It's really that simple.
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You're framing it wrong. We don't need to elect scary commies to massively increase taxes in order to subsidize icky collective things; we simply need to elect Fiscal Conservatives™ who will cease massively subsidizing car dependency. In particular, it's time to repeal Big Government® intrusive regulations that try to tell Red Blooded Americans© they can't build a multifamily building on their own damn property or that dictate minimum parking requirements.
This is America, damn it! It's high time we put the invisible hand of the Free Market back in control!
[insert screaming eagle noises]
Countries like Japan, Europe and Nordic countries… My man, Nordic countries are Europe and Europe isn’t a country.
It's more complex than that.
The way the US is spread out makes public transit prohibitively expensive and difficult to achieve proper coverage. To make it effective, you would have to shift the entire way we live. Our entire society is built off the concept that everyone has a car.
Add to the fact that building transit is extra expensive in the US and you arrive at the reality that we will NEVER have a working transit system. That's why the shift to small cars is needed. We don't have any more room for roads, so we need more cars to fit in the roads we have
In fairness the Interstate system was more about air defense than transit.
Politically you have to get several different groups of people to buy in to make it work. Unfortunately "what it's about" is the deciding factor in accomplishment.
Americans have absolutely embraced public transit. It’s just that not a lot of cities have robust systems in place, but go somewhere like NYC or Chicago and you’ll see a transit system that millions rely on daily.
My dude what do you think OP is talking about. That’s what embracing public transit means ya dingus.
You live in a democracy lol
You make it sound like you're in an authoritarian state
Sure doesn't feel like it a lot of the time
That hasn't been true since the 80s.
Public transit needs to do what it says on the tin. People won't choose public transit if it's the choice between an hour commute each way and a 3 hour each way bus ride.
americans will embrace small cars like they embrace gun control
We embraced the shit out of them during the oil crisis in the '70's. Then when gasoline got cheap again we snapped right back.
"But my SUV makes me feel so 'safe' and gives me a commanding view of the road!!!!!!"
I am of the opinion that everyone ought to just get a motorcycle.
Have you ever seen Americans drive? Or the ones that ride motorcycles?
Give everyone a motorcycle and half the country would be dead in a week
Well, that'll keep 'em off my damn roads, won't it?
Yeah that's a net win
They'd all get those goddamn ear splitting harleys too. Like there isn't enough noise already.
Honestly, fuck motorcycle drivers. I know there's plenty of them out there who operate your machines properly, but there SO MANY absolute asshats on motorcycles, always making the highway way more dangerous for everyone around them.
If I could remove one vehicle from the earth it would be motorcycles. Idgaf how fun they are for you, people can't be trusted with them in general.
Like most drivers you probably just don't notice the ones that aren't loud / ridden by asshats.
Many bikes have basically the same performance as a civic, you are painting with far too broad a brush here.
In a decade running a motorcycle as my only transport, I've never been remotely a threat to the 5,000 pound tanks I'm forced to share the road with, but almost been taken out by left turning stop sign and red light runners more times than is reasonable.
Yep couple assholes ruin it for everyone, I recognized that already,but also, it's a particular type of danger that isn't posed by anything else, and I dont think your pleasure is worth my stress tbh.
To be clear when I'm talking about danger I'm talking about the motorcyclist turning into an unrecognizable pink streak on the asphalt, not "hurting my car"...
If you pull some stupid shit and die on the road next to me that affects me more than you, since youre fucking dead then, so therefore: I should get more say in it than you.
Wrap it in whatever guise you want, you'll never convince me that riding a motorcycle is anything other than selfish.
I don't use it for pleasure, I use it to get around. If car drivers are stressing about rider safety (I don't get that impression) they can show it by putting their phones down and paying better attention to the world around them.
So wait. I am transporting one person, not taking up much space, obeying the rules of the road, don't have loud pipes nor speed, and you're telling me I'm selfish? When you literally just said you don't care about our pleasure?
I don't think it's us thats the selfish one here.
You don't like them weaving in and out of traffic and blowing past you at 40+ mph over the speed limit?
Weird right
I think there should be a separate license to drive SUVs and Trucks over a certain size. And that maintaining that license should be a bit of a hassle - like a required in-person written and practical test every 2 years. If people want that commanding view of the road and "safe" feeling that comes from endangering everyone else on the road, then they should have to put in some extra effort - not enough extra effort that it's unattainable for those who actually have a need for a vehicle of that size, but enough effort that it would discourage the widespread use we have currently.
Also, during your SUV probationary period you have to drive a Suzuki Samurai for two years or so.
I'd love to have a motorcycle that would replace my current vehicle, but it would need to be capable of keeping me warm while handling well in heavy snow. Afaik, there aren't any enclosed bikes out there
When you need a fucking step ladder to get into your jacked up pickup just so you can commute or get groceries you might have lost your mind.
I'd rather not die tyvm.
But only if it's a dual sport, right? ;)
Well I mean preferably.
The US EPA currently penalizes smaller cars thanks to a poorly thought out rule for fuel economy that scales by wheelbase size, making larger cars easier to meet requirements for. The EPA has made many embarrassingly backwards decisions, but this might be the worst.
I was taxed an extra $150 to register a 2002 Honda Insight last year. It was for a "Hybrid Tax" because hybrid owners buy less gas and therefore are paying less tax on gasoline. Like, that's the whole point of driving a small car!
They did for a while in the 70s-80s until giant SUVs got everyone hot and bothered
With their face?!?
Normal sized cars* you mean.
Normal cars aren't small. They're just small if you compare them to the giant ridiculous trucks they have over that.
Bold idea here, but maybe if we stopped fucking subsidizing SUV's, people wouldn't buy so goddamn many of them. Just a thought.
Whenever I'm in the States I hate the fact that everything is a 20 minute car ride away. I understand why road rage can be a thing if you spend so much time in the car.
USA didn't start building bullshit suburbs until 1950s. before that it was dense cities.
If anything this means Europe’s cities just can’t accommodate cars, because they weren’t built for them. The weird thing is that American cities were built for cars and yet still can’t accommodate cars. Traffic, lack of parking, road rage… it’s a huge mess, and it seems like the more you commit to cars, the worse it all gets. That’s the trouble with cars. They just don’t work.
I don’t really understand this comment though. It doesn’t take thousands of years to achieve urban density. And what does America’s sprawl have to do with loving large cars? You don’t need a huge car to drive medium distances.
You don’t even need a huge car to travel huge distances.
You need density to support a train system. You need a large number of riders to make it economical and you need them living within a reasonable distance of the stations. The US is very spread out. You can blame cars for that but that is the world we live in. The US is also very big with large rural areas, the western US didn't even really develop until trains came out in the 1869. Europe was built around compact cities based on horses and walking long before cars.
I agree that we are too car focused and it has become a sort of arms race, build more roads, more cars, more roads, etc.
Public transportationdoesn't have to be economical, it's a service.
The focus on cars is emotionally driven. The car symbolizes freedom and independence. Besides this it’s a huge status symbol. And the industry is working hard to keep it this way. The lack of decent public transportation is by design.
America exists because of the train, which it has since abandoned
The western US didn't really develop until the government started giving land that had already been ceded to indigenous peoples and couldn't actually support dense settlement to white settlers, at the behest of railroad companies who needed an artificial reason to build railroads in the first place.
Vancouver runs trains through SFH development. Montreal does too. Hell, so does London.
You're an untravelled idiot and it shows.
Uncalled for antagonism. Boooo.
Unfortunately it's zoning that caused most of this issue. Not size. Dense residential was disallowed for not entirely un-racist reasons, so it spread out enormously instead. On top of car companies lobbying in various ways to make cars essential.
I totally get that fact. I also think that it would not be bad to copy some things from other countries to make the cities in the States more liveable without car dependency. There's enough space to do that.
At the very least we could link cities with rail systems. Don't put a million stops on them either though. Try taking Amtrack from DC to Boston and you'll see what I mean.
just have more than one set of tracks and you can have a regional and express service train!
Passenger trains exist in the U.S. They used to be popular. Then planes and affordable automobiles put them out of business. If you don't live in a dense urban area, you almost certainly have a car, meaning you aren't beholden to train schedules and destinations. If you are in an area where you get by without a car, an Uber to the airport gets you to your destination much faster.
I agree and disagree with this. I don't think the US inherently must be car centric because it's big. But I do agree that Europe has superior pedestrian infrastructure because it developed for most of its history without cars. Auto and oil industry lobbying has instigated the situation in the US, but their agenda was only achievable because the technology existed to make large scale changes to the terrain, mass produce vehicles, etc. It's very likely that there were people throughout Europe's history who tried to monopolize bridges or horse wagons or other forms of transport, but the technology wasn't sufficient for it to materialize. Warsaw was destroyed during WWII and rebuilt, and it's developed to be very car-centric compared to other cities in Poland and Europe.
some reasons for the raise of vehicle size on the last decades are personal taste, but others are policy driven, we could look into that, as utility vehicles are treated differently in terms of emission requirements
Yup - in the US, pick-ups and SUVs are categorized as "light trucks," which have different fuel efficiency and emission standards and are therefore more profitable to produce.
Add to that some clever marketing to the effect of "big car = more manly/safe" and boom, now you see these big, stupid, fuel-ineffecient, dangerous vehicles everywhere.
Good job 👍
Not just that but the standards are also more lenient if the car is larger for its class which is part of why even small cars are bigger now.
I have heard also that a big car is better because a big car crashing with other bigger cars will increase the probability of surviving, but then it's a war of having the biggest car. It's basically the same as weapons.
Or an adequate mass transportation system.
Or walkable zoning, lack of which is the fundamental cause of the car dependency.
The lack of continuous sidewalks drives me nuts. A developer might put in a sidewalk but the one next to them doesn't. Sometimes you are walking alongside a ditch or have to cross a busy road to continue on.
Almost like it's designed to be annoying and pedestrian hostile
As much as I'm inclined to agree with @[email protected], the real reason is typically that all new developments are required to include sidewalks, but existing ones aren't required to retrofit. So you get a patchwork of sidewalks installed over time as things get torn down and rebuilt.
The "annoying and pedestrian hostile" part is municipalities' unwillingness to infill sidewalks in front of old developments at taxpayer expense.
Bullshit. Adequate mass transportation is competitive with a car. You don't even have to leave North America to see an "adequate" mass transportation system: just go to Montreal, Vancouver, or New York.
Most US cities have mass transportation that's designed to move around poor people so rich people in cars can't see them.
I never drove into Boston, I always took the train. I still needed a car though if I wanted to go anywhere away from the city. Boston also has an awful spoke and no rim train system. If you want to go from the end of one line to another you can't go in a ring around the city, you'd have to go all the way in then all the way up the other spoke.
Buses aren't horrible.
I do understand, I was a subway guy for the longest time, my wife would take the bus every day and she converted me.
My dream car is a Nash Metropolitan converted to an EV.
That would be fucking dope. I'd love for retrofuturist cars like this to appear
That's a pretty sweet ride.
I wish we got the Honda E. Would buy that up in a heartbeat.
Definitely would love a Honda E, got a Chevy Bolt EV as it seemed like the next best option here.
I'm usually not a hatch fan but that little car looked awesome. I got my last new gas powered manual transmission car before EVs are the main thing. Since I work from home and don't drive a bunch my plan is to keep it as long as I can and get an EV in 4-5 years when hopefully infrastructure catches up a bit and more manufacturers have an option and work out small kinks.
Bro if you could get a used leaf gen one (they run around 4k), you could take that thing to a drag strip and absolutely turn some heads.
I have a friend who wants to take my gen one leaf and do a conversion. He just went to an EV mechanics course on it.
Same with a 1959 Panhard PL 17. Some of those little old cars are just beautiful.
I've only seen one in person once, but I've loved it for years.
I'm on desktop, so how I do it is right-click, copy image, then just paste into the post. Not sure how to do it on mobile.
You'd chop up a nash, and put an ev motor in it? I do not have kind words for you.
When I was in high school back in the late 70s you'd still see a few of those around. My friend had one, but not for long. Someone had put in a more powerful motor and if she wasn't careful accelerating she would snap the drive shaft.
Give me a new El Camino EV with a 400 mile range and I'm in.
All my road trips are around 150 miles and there may or may not be a charger at the destination.
The article says range isn't important...if you've ever looked at a map of the US, you'll see why that's a misguided statement.
Forget small cars, we should be embracing non-motorized ways of transit. Make things human-sized again and allow us to walk and/or bike to destinations rather than having to have a motorized vehicle to get around.
Public transit is obviously a good thing to have, but I think it’s also important to have alternate forms of transit as well.
I was just on Block Island, RI the other day. It’s a 10mi^2 island with ferry service and an airport square in the middle of it. Very seasonal economy and the residents are wealthy NIMBY-types.
No trams or trolleys or any mass transit on the island itself. Lots of mopeds and bikes and a surprising amount of cars. We were on foot to a restaurant and approached a 4-way stop and both myself (pedestrian) and the bicyclist next to me were amazed at how hard it was to cross the street with all the taxis and rental cars around.
What a shame. The island should be a model of an ideal “minimal car” community, and could easily become it.
So much this. It's infuriating to have to get in a car every time you want to go outside your neighborhood.
I recommend moving to a city
In the US, it's really only NYC and Chicago that have functioning public transit. If you can't go to one of those, you're pretty much out of luck. It's not like in Europe where every little small to mid-size town has light rail and train connections all over.
You left out Boston
Boston is a maybe. To me, NYC and Chicago are the only places in the US that even come close to letting you live without a car.
You're funny.
NYC (and presumably Chicago - I haven't been) are the best, that's true. I've also been to Philadelphia and Boston and both had good train systems. I currently live in a medium-sized city that is 90% bus transit, and that can suffice even though it's not great. It's an exaggeration to say NYC and Chicago are the only places you can go without a car.
I have managed Denver and San Francisco many times without a car.
The question isn't about managing, but about convenience. In some cities, public transportation is more convenient than going out and getting a car and dealing with parking and all that noise. That should be the goal, not "it's manageable."
That's all fun and games until weather happens...and weather is going to happen a lot going forward.
I moved to Europe, grew up in New York near the City and decided to get a moped here to commute. It's roughly equivalent to an Ebike but was actually cheaper than one and has a 100km range. It's not highway legal as it has a top speed of 45km/h but can go on bike paths as long as I watch the speed.
After 3 months since I got the moped I am going to get a car because FUCK going to the office in the rain with that thing. The trains and/or busses go on strike about once a month, maybe a little less, and between delays and cancelations I can't rely on them for my commute. I've literally been waiting for the bus and the driver just decides not to stop to pick me up too. Also packages don't get reliably dropped off at my front door so I need to go into town or to the supermarket next to the highway to pick up my things which becomes untenable when they are bulky. Instead I'm taking taxis at a cost of €30 each way just to pick up shit that should be left at my door.
The dissonance is strong, I still need a car, and I still need one big enough to move bulky crap at least once a month if not more.
And before someone says rent a car, it's €70+ a day to do so here and I have a preferred account through my employer. I need to book it in advance so it's not a "same day" thing. Oh and the places they drop the packages off have weird fucking opening times and are often closed when they should be open so I've literally spent €60 on taxis to come home with nothing. That time the seller did me a solid and refunded me the €60 as an apology (it was a €350 item).
Cars have gotten bigger externally, but internally it seems storage space is actually going down. My 2014 Nissan Note has a 10% larger storage capacity than a 2023 Renault Espace, even tho the latter is 50cm larger in all three dimensions and is literally called 'spatious'.
I have a Volt, and I resent how few compact hybrid options there will be when I get a replacement. When I drive around, I literally struggle to see around the giant land boats cruising around. They hold up parking lots trying to stuff themselves into spaces, and if I get hit by one I'm much more likely to be injured. Average car size is kind of a tragedy of the commons. Everyone suffers when the cars get bigger, but the individuals with the dumb land boats suffer little of the cost.
It's time for Americans to stop spending so much time in their cars. Emissions from burning hydrocarbons are destroying the planet.
Here we have higher taxes for cars more than 4m long, so there are lots of small cars. Also, a lot of 3.99m cars.
CAFE is killing the smaller vehicle. Vehicles are getting super round and boring for aerodynamics. Wheel base is getting longer. Track is getting wider. There's no such thing as a small truck. Everything is am SUV ("truck") or crossover (hatchback / station wagon). CAFE allows for less fuel efficiency for wider track and longer wheelbase and trucks over everything else.
Remember how VW got caught cheating on the mileage tests? Remember how every other major manufacturer was caught too?
The govt has set far too high of a standard for mileage, so car companies are making giant ass cars to meet (cheat) CAFE standards. The manufacturers have done everything they can but still can't meet the standards.
There was a time back when gas prices got kinda high when I thought Americans would finally shift down to slightly smaller cars, but now it's practically a cultural thing for half the country to burn as much fuel as possible, so I suspect even if gas prices here hit Europe levels it wouldn't cause them to budge much.
It does feel really odd, though, going somewhere like a school and just being absolutely surrounded by huge SUVs and pickup trucks that you know damn well like 90% of the drivers aren't actually utilizing.
Double-sucks because it's becoming more and more difficult to find a small car. Everything new, even most cars, are huge.
In California, America's largest state by population, our #1 selling vehicle is the Honda Civic. And driving on our roads, Civics, Corollas, Accords etc... dominate the roads. And even the biggest selling SUV the CRV gets like 30+ to the gallon.
Small cars sell in places where small cars work.
It's time for Americans to embrace bicycles and ebikes and, gasp, walking
That is barely even the start of what we need. It would do us better to embrace public transit and densification. If we all just switched to small cars instead it wouldn't solve the underlying issues with car dependent infrastructure. We'd still have wide swaths of useful land buried under miles of concrete and asphalt. We'd still have urban spaces that are hostile to anyone not in a automobile (admittedly somewhat less so). My commute time is nearly doubled simply because all of the parking lots I have to walk through. There's no need (outside of accommodating drivers) for everything to be separated by so much empty space.
Yeah, changing up cars seems like scratching at a symptom rather than the problem. If there are thousands of cars all headed in the same direction every day... It seems like offering a train would be pretty obvious win.
Cars would still be needed in some situations though, in which case it would be better if they were small
For sure, I'm not saying we have to entirely ban cars. And small cars are much better than large cars. But neither should be everyone's first thought for "how do I get around town?"
Trains are great for getting from one dense area to another. As soon as you need to go in any other direction though you are stuck. Plus the US is so spread out you still need a car to get to the station unless you live a mile or so near it and that is a pretty limited area.
It is amazing to think of how much land is buried under pavement. The problem is solving the "last mile" issue. You still need a car to get to the train station for instance.
Even in Europe we can't, since they replace them with fat Crossovers.
Or, please, trains.
Increase the gas tax. Set registration fees per pound of car.
We know how to do this. We also know how scared politicians are of angering anyone.
The trend in truck size is, well, yeah.
I want a small truck. Not the new small ones that are the size of 20yr old full-size trucks.
I miss the old rangers, the new ones might as well be f150s.
The Maverick is the current equivalent.
I wish you could get newer kei trucks in the states.
I'd kill for an 81 Rabbit pickup.
I'd like a hybrid truck similar in size to a chevy s10. 50-60 miles off electric with a switch over to gas. Use all electric daily, and my 15-17 hour drive to family could use gas when needed.
the only problem i had when i was driving a small car (i drive a mid-size car now) was my sense of vulnerability when surrounded by stupid massive lifted trucks bearing down on me. it felt really unsafe. and i live in stupid-giant-truck land, they're not an anomaly here.
eta - plus giant truck owners seem to get off on being scary aggressive drivers.
I mean, yeah. Small electric cars, more trains, more public transport.
That's going to be a hard job. Cue the ones willing to die for their god given right to drive a car the size of a van to the shops they can see from their front door.
I drive a 2015 Chevy Spark, the gas version. The ev version was discontinued in 2016, the gas version was discontinued in 2022. The Chevy Sonic, a similar, but slightly larger model was discontinued in 2020. The Chevy Bolt, an ev and larger, but still compact model and a successor to the Spark and Sonic was discontinued this year. It's become apparent that most Americans do not like small cars. I don't think much can be done to make small cars likable here, I'd love to be able to drive a car like the Honda E, but there's no market for it here.
Small, pink cars?
I like it. Reminds me of a movie or something.
The author notes that he would like to see more people take public transportation, and I’m all for that. There’s one problem for me: In Michigan where I live there is no public transportation that really gets you around Detroit, or gets you from the suburbs to Detroit. There is the joke of a QLine that goes no where and the People Mover that also doesn’t do much, but other than that nothing. Convincing people that have private transportation (read: cars) that they should invest/have their taxes used for public transportation is a no-go. Convincing the rich that they should pay more than $0 a year in taxes is even harder. This is probably the case a in several states around the country, but definitely in Michigan (and believe me, we tried with a bus system). So while I get that smaller cars can be and maybe should be thing, I think public transportation, as the author points out, could also be a thing. However, trying to get anyone, especially millionaires and billionaires, to pay a cent more than they are forced to is like pulling teeth.
Americans will embrace small cars when we don't need to drive 1+hours every single day.
You dont need a large car for that...
You just need a comfortable car for that.
For some people, bigger is more comfortable. Different strokes for different folks. Others don't want to deal with playing Tetris with baggage and family every time they need to go on a trip. For others, it's a safety issue or at least they feel safer in a bigger car.
But yes. I generally agree with you.
Especially for an obese country.
It isn’t even that. America, Germany, and the UK are all very similar. And those numbers are only becoming more similar over time.
Europeans need to remember that American states are often larger than European countries.
And that generations of neglect or intentional sabotage has rendered public transport completely useless outside of outlier scenarios.
People want to handwave it away, but there are legitimate safety concerns with driving smaller vehicles in the US. Not only are they less comfortable (in a country where you have to drive everywhere, for long periods of time, even for incidental items). They will get destroyed by our obnoxiously huge SUVs and trucks. Happens all the time.
Same thing needs to be remembered when people who don’t live here insist everyone should just be biking everywhere. I agree in spirit, but the reality is that biking in the US is a gamble every time someone does it. And you can’t convince a populace to do it when a normal American is 10+ miles away from a grocery store, and when most of our states experience both extreme heat and extreme cold.
The problem is truly systemic. We have a majority of civil planning intentionally implementing hostile engineering to incentivize vehicles.
So actually there are many cars that are nearly or just as safe as SUVs and have similar storage capacity. These arguments are often used by industry but don't really hold any weight
https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/unsafe/theme.html
As someone who goes to Italy yearly with a family of 4 and a dog often the smaller car storage notes are bullshit.
We rent to drive to our home here and then use bikes when or borrow the inlaws car but they often say 5 or 6 seater with room for 3 luggages but it often means at the expense of seats. I often travel with my daughter's stroller beneath the kids feet and a luggage or several backpacks on the floor or in the middle seat and for a several hours drive it's not comfy. Meanwhile my traverse in the states I can fit all of them plus the luggages etc on way to anywhere and we're all comfy for hours.
Not that that's a justification for larger cars but it's definitely not on par and you totally need to play Tetris or sacrifice comfort to make it work.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/jN7mSXMruEo
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Well, when a County drops nearly a million dollars on a bus stop, it's not hard to understand why.
You kind of hit on the biggest problem with lack of public transit investments, and I don’t think you even realize it.
On I-66, they added an additional travel lane for 4 miles and it cost $85million. That’s more than $20million PER MILE. And it is only ONE travel lane, not an entire highway. And yet, we accept this as the norm, but god forbid we spend money on public transit. Everyone is up in arms on how our taxes are wasted only when it is public transit. I’m not saying that $1 million bus stop was money well spent, I honestly don’t know. But it still sounds like a better deal than $1 million for 264 feet of travel lane.
http://inside.transform66.org/about_the_project/i-66_eastbound_widening.asp
The US should really just directly employ regional workers to handle these projects. Corruption and nepotism are rampant in public construction projects, and the profit motive requires an inefficient use of tax dollars since we must pay a completely useless margin just so somebody can become richer for doing zero work.
We also need to stop expanding highways since additional lanes have been proven to not help congestion, and actually worsens it because it encourages more driving.
I remember when they expanded rt 3 in MA. I said to myself "It'll be packed in a few years." Sure enough people immediately packed into the towns along it or changed their routes and now it is a jammed as every other highway, just wider.
For them to establish a true high speed rail system down the east coast they'd have to buy up billions in property via eminent domain before they even put down a single track. I don't see that getting much support.
I drive a, for American standards, small Peugeot 308. It’s the 2018 model. Does about 45-50 MPG (the diesel does even better) and has all the luxuries I can imagine. I drive the station which means I have plenty of space for everything I could need. I drive it for 2,5-3 hours a day. It drives like a dream. You don’t need a massive SUV for that.
I drive a Crosstrek and have a small truck. I'm about as small as it gets before going to clown cars. I don't why everyone here thinks they are going to persuade me how wrong I am....I was making a statement that's isn't wrong. You want people to move to smaller vehicles, build better infrastructure.
A cross trek isn't a small vehicle. It's larger than almost all sedans. I drive a WRX which is significantly smaller and far from a 'clown car'. I wouldn't say that yours are large vehicles, but your statement about going smaller absolutely is wrong. I don't have to persuade you, you're just categorically wrong.
That doesn't make any sense. What does duration of transit have to do woth how large your vehicle is? The article didn't say clown cars.
I'm 6'2" (188cm) and I drive a tiny little '05 Mazda 3s, for 1.5 hours each way to work/home. It's not an issue at all. If anything, I'm honestly LESS comfortable in larger vehicles.
Would I like to drive less? Definitely. Working from home during Corona was fantastic and I was so much more productive.
How are you less comfortable in a large vehicle? I'm the same height and driving a Corolla my head would hit the roof sometimes. Getting in and out of a Civic felt like I was human origami. I got a Forester and it is so much more comfortable. My partially disabled dad loved being able to just slide into the seat and swing his legs in without having to drop down and struggle to get his legs folded in or out.
You have kids? Pets? Long work commute? A small car makes having to balance any of these (especially together) difficult. Sprawling suburbia makes commutes and driving anywhere suck, you want Americans to get smaller cars? Build better city infrastructure so that I don't need to use the car 98% of the time I need to leave the house. If I don't need to use it as much I can deal with less comfort and a smaller car.
Make sense now?
Uhh nope. None of those are good reasons to have a massive vehicle. Especially long work commute...thats completely irrelevant.
How many Americans do you think are going to be able to afford two or three vehicles?
If you have a family and any pets , it's very difficult to travel around anywhere. At most, people are going to get a car that can fulfill as many needs as possible. Just because YOU can get around comfortably in a smaller car, doesn't mean someone else will be. Different families have different needs.
Also a Mazda 3 is not that small, neither is a Corolla.
Not anymore they're not. Not in the U.S., at least.
Neither of which will be big enough to travel with. A family with kids and a dog is a crammed vehicle. If I can't afford a larger car, I'm going to get something that's less cramped and uncomfortable when theres a full load like that.
If you have 20 kids and a great Dane I guess you're right. If you have 2 kids and a dog that's on you.
Just buy a station car? It’s hot more space than I’ll ever need and I have all of the things you mention. Small does not equal clown car you know.
Motherfucker, 15% of American males don't even have friends, 95% of you don't need an SUV. You think people in other countries don't have jobs and families and cities? Christ, pull your head out of your ass and look out a window once in a while.
I can see why...
Yeah, poor stupid Americans.
Getting in and out of a higher-riding vehicle with an upright seating position is more natural and comfortable, particularly for the elderly and/or infirm. Furthermore, we have engineered away most of the drawbacks of crossovers and SUVs.
Based on the numbers of SUV's and large trucks on US roads I'm going to assume 90% of your population is elderly or infirm.
Vast majority are obese, close enough to infirm.
I agree that most people don’t need SUVs. And even more don’t need a truck. But few others are forced to drive as much nor as far as Americans on a daily basis, so we don’t give a shit if people in other countries with robust public transport sometimes have to drive places in their (comparatively) small countries with their families.
TIL that a dubious 15% is also === 95%.
Edit: that is to say, this isn’t as simple as “LOL Americans fat, Americans dumb.” The same old Euro arguments don’t work on this one. Civil planning is completely fucked here. It isn’t just bad, it is actively hostile to non-drivers.
And SUVs in particular can get these massive tax advantages that cars don’t get. Same with some models of truck. Plus, marketing is highly effective and nearly totally unregulated like so much else over here.
You have morons giving themselves brain damage for the right to own gas stoves, and we have similar morons suffocating themselves and everyone else by insisting they need huge vehicles. And the government actively encourages it.
Aww. Someone got angry lol.
Don't be so disingenuous as to assume that just because I enjoy cursing that I'm angry, you just make yourself sound like a fucking idiot. Especially when you don't respond to the message with anything of substance, like a belligerent child.
I'm not responding to an insufferable little bitch. Either learn to talk like an adult and, you know, be somewhat respectable, or get use to being treated like a child. Byeeeeee
The stick is so far up your ass it's pushing shit out of your mouth, careful there.
If self awareness was a disease you'd be the healthiest person alive. How much of a coward do you have to be to run away from mean words? It's a bullshit excuse, you can't attack my message so you try to disingenuously dismiss it without consideration. Pathetic.
No it doesn't make sense but thanks for patronizing me.
All I see here is you barking back the truck industry's talking points to me. I know plenty of people with kids and pets and small cars and guess what? They are used to it and don't hate it.
Your entitlement is the difference, let's not make any mistake about this.
Entitlement over what? I drive a crosstrek mate. I can't get into a smaller car otherwise I'm leaving the kids behind. Your arguing with a single person. The reality of PEOPLE is that they won't change unless they don't need cars as much.... it's only logical mate.
Right because all these small vehicles only have two seats, I keep forgetting the only small car options are old mr2, fiero, and rx-7's. SILLY ME
I commuted 2 1/2 hours a day, mostly highway driving. In a Yaris, with a passenger. For 8 years. I was driving, not stretching out to take a nap.
TBH, I would have preferred a car that was quieter and had a bit more comfortable ride. But a Corolla, Civic, Mazda 3 or Elantra would have been just fine.
It does, these days.
How about one of these bad boys?
https://www.motor1.com/news/680166/third-generation-honda-n-box-debut/
They're actually pretty roomy inside. Not aerodynamic, and I wouldn't want to be driving over 55 in one, but they're pretty neat.
Just sold my Model 3 for a long time want, Fiat 500 Abarth. Couldn’t be happier.
I wonder how many people are doing something like this. My plan is to sell my model 3 as well and get a cheap 5speed hatchback, whatever seems most fun when the time comes.
If you don't mind me asking, what made you want to switch to gas and what do you like about the fiat 500? I've never been in one!
Everyone along the way asked the same thing. Everyone thinks I’m crazy going EV to gas or they try to make it political. I loved my Model 3, one of the best cars I’ve had. EV & Gas had nothing to do with my decision at all.
I personally am a big fan of hatchbacks, and I especially prefer smaller cars. Coming from an 01 CLK, the Model 3 always felt a bit big to me. It’s really nice to be back in a smaller car.
I love the Fiat for its size and it’s look. It’s a little guy with a lot of personality. The Abarth especially. Some may not like how loud it is, but it really sounds like a big sports car, and that’s with factory exhaust. There’s a lot of aftermarket support so you can really make it your own as well.
Mine is a five speed manual. And after just shy of four years with one pedal driving, it’s been a huge adjustment. It’s my first manual car, but I like the challenge and have been working super hard at learning all the tricks with it.
That's really great, I'm glad your enjoy it! Super cool it's your first stick shift. You and I think alike in the model 3 feeling a little large. I really like the hatchback aesthetic and I came from a 6 speed manual to the model 3. While I like the instant power and speed, the fun of rowing gears is something I miss.
The acceleration was wonderful! But even going slow, the Abarth sounds like you're going fast. It's really enjoyable.
I went the opposite route and instead of selling my 3 I bought a Y as well. Despite elon and all the negative press, it's hard to beat an electric car.
The only trouble is that the super charger network pretty much makes the choice of EV for you if you don't want any gas cars in the garage.
Supercharger is exactly why I didn't own a different brand. I love to drive and often put plenty of miles on it, so not having that reliability wasn't an option for me.
As for the Elon business, I ignore that best I can.
Won’t be that long till you can get an adapter for existing CCS cars, so eventually vehicles like mine will be able to use almost any charging station there is. In the meantime, I’ve almost entirely charged at home and had no failures yet with public chargers.
We had compact cars in the 70s and 80s then massive SUVs and now massive pickups became the norm. Pickups have not only become louder but they don't even fit in parking spaces completely anymore.
Same with EV's, this stuff will save the car industry but not the planet.
We need to figure out how to rebuild our infrastructure and our ways of thinking such that we don't need individual hunks of carbon toting us around.
Let me buy a kei truck. Let me revel in its smallness.
I really really wanna get a Honda Acty van. The trucks are cool, but that little van (or really any Kei van) is just the best thing to me. Pretty rare in the US though, so finding one nearby is a challenge!
Same (and it is a thing where I'm at, it just needs to be used+imported). But also I don't really want to drive, and I do not afford such a thing (both in terms of need and money).
I did buy a small+cheap+geared ebike (45 pounds, 20" wheels) and it's pretty great. Would be nice to be lighter, but that's a cost thing. Somewhat smaller perhaps too (not that I've tried it), though that would probably require a custom design or perhaps an normal bike (I am not sure how a niche smaller bike would compare to what I have now in terms of riding effort/experience and cost especially without a good-deal local used or clones on sale).
Though bicycling also has its limits/caveats where I'm at (also for me personally, so I don't have a standard commute) but the specific utility (especially due to a nearby trail) that is there in different forms makes it worth it (health being a big one, 1-way trips, I even fetched water 12L at a time when the pump was out).
My husbands 2009 Corolla finally needed replacing (couldn't pass inspection due to rusted frame) and he had the WORST time finding a car anywhere at the nearby dealerships. Everything was trucks and SUVs, finally he found one that had 3 cars and 1 mostly fit the price/criteria he wanted.
We're in the rural north east and the number of big ass trucks is insane, it's getting harder and harder to park between them all and I hate trying to get out of parking spaces when I can't see for shit around them.
It's the 70s all over again.
Yep. All it will take is one oil shock and we'll have GM and Ford scrambling to build small cars, fail miserably, get bailed out, and then start building giant cars again.
I looked at the Ford Canada page - the smallest vehicle in the line up was the Mustang, most were trucks or should big SUVs. Then I looked at the Ford Switzerland page - lots of reasonable cars of all sizes, basically zero trucks.
They make them, they just don't sell them here. It's bullshit.
It's annoying that the home country of Ford doesn't get a lot of their best vehicles. I want a new Focus ST estate, and an Australian ute.
It's the same with a lot of the other manufacturers. You can buy a Toyota Yaris in Mexico, but not in the US.
Or just not buy so many ugly ass SUVs/crossovers/minivans/god the list goes on.
from the thumbnail, thought it was the Simpsons car haha
I can’t fit 3 kids with car seats in a small car. I drive anything that is affordable
I have 4 kids, vans or suvs are my only option. I got my explorer new for 24k. It was the cheapest vehicle with 3 rows and room for luggage in the back. I miss driving a car, but for the next decade I need a kid hauler.
I love my lil 2002 subie hatchback.
Hatchbacks are the shiznat.
The main reason is manufacturers make more money off of larger cars. The cost of making cars doesn't vary that much, but larger cars can be sold for much more, so the profit margin is greater. That, and costs for parts tend to be greater, also.
My 2005 Scion xB is still going strong. Love that car. It’s not just short but also narrow so I can easily fit in compact parking spaces that many others can’t. Yet it feels huge on the inside. Great car.
I'm all for smaller more efficient cars, easier to drive too
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Heavier vehicles also wear out roads faster, though the difference between a small sedan and a large electric SUV amounts to very little when compared to the effect of a garbage truck rolling by each morning.
Just this week, Automotive News reported that the Mitsubishi Mirage is on the way out, joining the choir invisible alongside cars like the Chevrolet Sonic, Honda Fit, and Toyota Yaris, all of which were once sold in the US.
The Bolt's biggest problem, from a bean counter's point of view at least, was a battery that cost a lot more per kWh than one made with General Motors' new Ultium cells.
News of the Bolt's cancellation was met with much dismay, and GM recently decided to bring the nameplate back at some unspecified time on a new Ultium-based platform.
But GM CEO Mary Barra has also warned that even with the lower cost of Ultium cells, the company won't make any profit on sub-$40,000 EVs until late in the decade.
In addition to the ever-escalating safety arms race that entices American car buyers, a misplaced obsession with having as much range as possible also factors in here.
The original article contains 493 words, the summary contains 193 words. Saved 61%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Ford F150/Chevy 1500 and bigger just keep getting bigger every style change. I call them pavement tanks.
A Toyota Pixis Mega/Honda N Van as a daily and a toy on the side, that's ideal for me and maybe it should be for Americans too. But I'm biased because I love driving
I would love to have smaller cars, but my average size Civic can’t see around the driving billboards that all the people are driving these days, increasing the danger and risk to myself and passenger(s).
I'd be happy enough with a Smart Fortwo style vehicle. I'd be more than happy with good public transportation and non-car dominated urban planning. I'd be over the moon for high speed rail lines covering the country.
or idk.... make real city?
I like my Smart EV. From the outside, it is as long as most cars are wide, can U-turn as right as a Tesla Cyber truck, if not tighter, and can get me from A-B daily, charging overnight off a regular household outlet.
Miata is always the answer!
I usually ride my bike, but my daily driver was a Honda Fit before I started getting back into cycling and ebikes. Good little car, I kinda miss it.
That's me right now. I walk/bike when I have to go in to work, and have a Fit for when I need a vehicle otherwise. I wish I could go smaller, but I don't want to buy a new car until I need to.
As someone that just traded in my Sierra 1500 for a Sienna Minivan, I don't understand why minivans get so much hate. My van is an excellent people mover, can carry a lot of shit, and gets 36MPG. The Tahoe I was looking at doesn't hold a candle to my van, and uses a lot of expensive gas to boot.
Towing. The tahoe could tow way more than the van. They have different purposes.
Vans are awesome!! So are trucks, de0ends on your needs
There still exist cars in 2023. It's not just SUV's available on the lot.
People just want them, because of grocery trips or a kid in school sports or whatever.
Whether most of them actually need that SUV space is something up for debate, but it's gonna be hard to convince the average American (already in love with full SUV's) to just switch away.
Great, but they don't sell them here.
And no ones gonna go get a fiat or smart
Fuck it, it's Wuling Hongguang Mini EV posting hours
I'm doing my part.
Been driving a Honda civic for years.
But maybe the one on this photo.
They will when forced too. Like europe and the tax on their petrol/diesel.
I've love a big stinking 5L v8 but fuel is so expensive.
Work harder, play harder. Isn't that the American way?
Meanwhile the cars for sale in the US, driven partially by EV range anxiety, are getting bigger on average.
They are only bad for business if gasoline is unreasonably cheap
I love me some power wheels; I'm just too damn big for 'em. 😩
Efficient is sexy
Sorry but that looks like a suppository.
I'd entertain this much more if getting in a car crash with a bigger vehicle didn't mean death. My dad used to work in the ER and also commute in the snow. It's not that bigger equals safer but sometimes slightly larger means not getting demolished.
Before addressing the American people, speak to the NHTSA that regulates safety in vehicles. The car shown doesn’t have side airbags.
The hell are you on about. This car is ancient.
It’s an article reference photo of a small car. A small car that cannot be sold in US, if new. That’s what I’m on about.
Only way we’re getting a car that small is a 2-seater.
Caption:
Does the modern Renault 5 EV also lack airbags?
What does this have to do with technology versus posting this in one of the car communities?
This is the played-out automotive circlejerk on the internet.... everyone acts like they would run out and buy X car if a car maker released it. Then a single car maker actually does, and no one buys it. And it is always because of one (usually lame) reason after another. People don't want to put their money where their mouth is and yet they still think car makers will listen.
I'm here to embrace physics. Small Car + Big Truck = Death.
Edit: I don't understand why this is getting downvoted. Americans aren't going to give up their gas guzzler for a smaller vehicle (although I agree that they should at least not have a gas guzzler), and even if they did, not everyone would. Sure, you'll probably have points in the replies (once I get some), but I'm going off of an IIHS perspective. If a small vehicle gets into an accident (assuming it's head on/moderate/overlap) with another vehicle (as most American vehicles are either SUVs or Trucks [yes, I know an SUV is technically a truck, but that's not the point]), that person in the smaller vehicle will most likely be dead or seriously injured in that crash. It doesn't have to be particularly fast for a weight problem to show a big impact.
The time was in the 60’s. Now it really doesnt matter. We fucked up already and its too late
I'm 6'4", fuck your small cars, lol.
I'll continue to pay extra for a large truck. Handling, strength, towing, hauling. I'm positive I'll get mostly downvotes but it doesn't make a difference, I'll still be driving my truck dozens of miles commuting every day! 9-12 MPG, pure diesel baby!
I'm with Americans on this one, they are too morbidly obese to fit in regular cars. Leave the fatfucks alone.
Americans don't want small cars, and honestly, I don't think its a problem.
They are tricked into wanting big vehicles.
No one is tricking them, they want them. It is a self image thing, like the giant offroad trucks I see around me all the time with the winch and all the accessories that spend 99.9% of their time going shopping.
A self image that has been instilled through years and years of highly targeted, and highly researched ad campaigns.
People "want" these because they believe they need it, because the ads told them they need it. Then the other men who own those vehicles proceed to shit on the men with smaller trucks, and those insecure enough to bend over get the big truck as well.
I don't see this truck culture in Europe. I don't see people buying stupid vehicles to go offroading full of expensive gadgets and so on. While I'm sure it exists in small pockets it is by no means the level it's at here. (In Europe it's probably more for sports cars anywho)
Point being, no one wanted those SUVs until the car companies told them they want those SUVs.
No need for a trick. Bigger vehicles feel better to drive. And space isn't much of a concern in America.
I've heard this plenty of times, but are you using that field? Are you using that forest? This road that road? Are you using the parking lot in Seattle when you live in Georgia?
"We have the space for bigger vehicles" does not make sense when we have to drive farther and farther to reach things that are useful for us. (Also sprawling development destroys local ecosystems, and along with that, natural resources.)
While I would've agreed with you a few years ago, it's just not a realistic thought process when most people live their day-to-day lives in an area about the size of Luxembourg.
Big vehicles are a huge waste of valuable resources that could've been used on other things, such as infrastructure, public transport, smaller vehicles. Etc.
If you like body roll, yeah. Otherwise they are worse overall.
I'd rather drive something smaller and more fun than some big lumbering hunk of metal and plastic.
Especially with how tall vehicles here are getting.
I'll stick with my Jetta and you do you, short king.
Then you see the jacked up trucks, they weren't high enough already
Bigger vehicles are less likely to feel the bumps in the shitty roads we have because everybody drives big vehicles that wear down the roads 10x as fast.
So let's all buy 68 Bonnevilles and convert them to EVs.
All the wasted space is part of the reason why car traffic, public transit, walkability, and road quality suck so bad here. Zoning laws are basically forcing us to build single family household suburbs. We need dense, mixed use cities that have work and shops closer to homes, with many options for public transit servicing every street. Instead, we’re paying to build and maintain roads to connect homes that are orders of magnitude less dense, meaning it’s more expense per land area and less income from its users as well. Suburbias needs to turn into downtowns, and we need to build bike lanes, trains, subways, streetcars, and bus lines instead of more car lanes.
On a country perspective America is indeed big, but cities usually become denser as they grow, and in some decades will become a traffic nightmare just like old European cities are.
edit: not to focus about all the problems that bigger cars carry
"space isn't much of a concern in America" is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while! What the fuck does that even mean? Like I get we have a large country but it isn't all roads and parking lots... yet
Makes sense for overweight drunk Americans. Bigger vehicles accelerate slower, aren't nearly as nimble, consume more fuel($$$), don't stop as well, destroy roads faster, consume more wear parts. Overall a net loss.
Granted they fit fat people better
Super insightful thoughts from exactly the problem with the US.
No
Why not?
The big truck is important to compensate for the small penis.
A small car means several trips to do normal things instead of just one. How is that beneficial exactly?
What "normal things" are you doing that need a huge car?
He needs to know he can move an entire house worth of belongings once a decade without having to rent a U-Haul like a pussy.
Daily too. They're either a contractor or lying
Either your definition of small car is extra tiny or your definition of normal things is exaggerated.
Jobs need trucks. Daily driving doesn't.
I remember a guy called into Car Talk asking about what he should buy. After describing his needs they recommended a smaller or midsize car. The guy said "But what about when I need to haul stuff?" They asked him how often he actually did that and he said about 2-3 times a year. They said to save himself thousands of dollars and get the smaller vehicle and rent a truck for a fraction of the cost for the few times he needed to haul stuff.
Dude, I drive a Miata, and a 1st gen rx7. I can think of maybe 2 times I’ve needed to drive my husbands car (which is a veloster, so not terribly large either) in the 8 or so years of Miata ownership. At least one of those times was because I didn’t want to drive the RX7 from San Diego to Los Angeles with no air conditioning, no power steering, and a relatively heavy clutch, in the middle of summer, in rush hour traffic. Not because what I was picking up wouldn’t fit in the rx7.
What exactly do you need to do multiple trips for?
No way it can fit groceries lol.
This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard about small cars lol