This is speculation but I'd bet there was some amount of less-than-voluntary aspect to the construction of at least some of the pyramids. As in "we'll pay you, but this is your job for the next 30 years while you're not harvesting."
to be fair, there was fuck all to do inbetween harvests. if someone came up to me as i'm bored out of my mind watching grains grow and said "hey wanna help build a huge fucking triangle? the pharaoh pays well" i'd say yes in a heartbeat. i doubt they had trouble finding workers
I honestly forget that frequently. My general attitude when any type of believer says something I consider obvious bullshit is to spend a couple of seconds thinking we're in on a pretend joke until it hits me.
In my experience the overwhelming maj{rity of believers don't. Theyll say they do and argue and gwt offended, bit its just an identity/social thing to them.
Somebody once advanced the theory that the pyramids may have been public works projects, to keep the whole economy from collapsing. The pharaohs had accumulated so much of the available wealth, they spent some of it to put people to work. I think that's an interesting speculation.
'Paid'. When some egyptaboo tells you that "there weren't slaves in Egypt at this time", remember the 'workers' were paid in housing, bread, and beer. And were kinda bound by their duty to the God-Pharaoh. Totally not slavery!
Tho now thinking of it it's not like my wage stretches farther than that either...
I am. Feel free to talk with people about this who live in old vehicles, on a friends' couch or literally on the streets despite having a "job". Or those who only have proper housing and food by working two or more jobs.
The only reason we don't have this shit in more rich countries often is that people receive welfare despite working a full-time job because it doesn't pay properly. In Germany we call this "aufstocken". Basically another way to create wage slavery and redirect money from the state towards the private sector.
The US is just very obvious and very loud about everything. Other third world countries indeed don't have it any better.
In medieval times that's certainly true. Egyptian laborers were paid. Generally in food and housing, as coinage wouldn't be introduced for quite some time. Especially skilled laborers were sometimes given land. Egypt had a very routinized farming season and most laborers were farmers with nothing to farm in the off season.
Skilled stone masons could kinda go wherever so locking them in to work with taxes was a great way to get them to leave.
Fun fact, they had a daily meal of a particularly thick beer that had chunks of bread in it. And one time they went on strike when they ran out of wigs.
Why does it sound like you think "least worst" is synonymous with "good"? And you are also combining your opinion of the type of system with specific implementations of it. The two are related, but separate. For example, an autocrat can be a fantastic leader, and overall great for their country and everyone in it. That doesn't mean an autocratic government is a good system in the general sense.
By what metric is capitalism the "least worst" system? Most of the people who defend capitalism have to sell their labor and own zero capital. The result is a two-tiered system where the obscenely wealthy exist right next to a vast majority who don't have enough savings to survive a minor emergency. This is the situation in rich countries. The ongoing exploitation throughout so-called "third-world" capitalist countries also speaks against capitalism.
Moreover, if socialism is such a bad system, why did America fight tooth and nail to stop it? Diplomatic isolation, trade embargos, propaganda, political assassinations. It is because socialism actually threatens the profits of the wealthy. The west can't exploit the land, labor, and resources of nations that place the workers in charge of their own workplaces. Maybe if the most powerful country in the history of the world wasn't working against it the system could prove its worth.
All of the democratic socialist countries would like a word. Unfortunately, the CIA already killed them all.
Edit: To clarify, capitalism + democracy goes out of its way to fuck any other burgeoning system from getting its legs. So, I don't think it's fair to state "it's the least worst".
The profit motive was covered by the Pharaoh's exploitation of the entire nation of Egypt as his personal plantation and palace; each Pharaoh's Pyramid was the resulting useless passion project wasting all that accumulated profit. Albeit at reduced cost, considering the widespread use of corvee and legal limits on the ability of worker's to negotiate contracts with the agents of the Pharaoh compared to with non-government notables.
The Bible doesn't actually say anything about slaves being used to build the pyramids or even mention the pyramids (as far I know, there may be an obscure mention in the minor prophets I don't know about). The idea of Israelite slaves building the pyramids is entirely cultural, and relatively recent. For example, in the middle ages, people believed that the pyramids were actually older than the story of Moses and Egyptian captivity, and attributed them to the biblical character Joseph, who appears in the Book of Genesis. I suspect the idea of Israelite slaves building the pyramids comes from early movies about the Exodus such as the blockbuster hit The Ten Commandments.
So you're saying the bible claims Egypt enslaved the abrahamic worshippers until after Moses, but because moses came after the pyramids that means the bible doesn't say the thing that it says.
Does religion even being mentioned give you people brain damage or something? I am legitimately curious how you could have misread my comment so hard unless you were just foaming at the mouth about religion even being mentioned that you disregarded even the most basic thought about it. I am just saying that the Bible doesn't actually claim that enslaved Jews built the pyramids and doesn't even mention the pyramids at all, and I included the other stuff more to demonstrate that this is actually a pretty recent belief based mostly on Hollywood movies. Exodus clearly depicts Israelites being enslaved in Egypt, but I wasn't trying to dispute that.
The labourers would have been enticed by the mix of high-quality food and the opportunity to work on such a prestigious project. Today, many of the highly experienced archaeological workmen at the pyramids come from the same region, though they are paid in hard currency, rather than prime beef and accolades.
The Pharaohs were large plantation owners with enormous surplus foodstuffs, including livestock and garlic (which was highly prized for its medicinal value). And the workers were, in many ways, members of an enormous enthusiastic cult community that rewarded the construction of these mega-projects both economically and socially.
So, not all that far off from capitalism in the modern sense.
Ancient Egyptians were able to sell themselves and children into slavery in a form of bonded labor. Self-sale into servitude was not always a choice made by the individuals' free will, but rather a result of individuals who were unable to pay off their debts.[
Several departments in the Ancient Egyptian government were able to draft workers from the general population to work for the state with a corvée labor system. The laborers were conscripted for projects such as military expeditions, mining and quarrying, and construction projects for the state. These slaves were paid a wage, depending on their skill level and social status for their work
They used slaves for everything and paid them, so having a paid receipt is a weird distinction to try and make something less worse than it was.
You mean the wealth inequality, gig economy, being paid below a fair living wage, and unaffordable rent/bills keeping people in jobs they hate and aren't fit for?
Sounds more like slavery now than what the ancient Egyptians had. Sign me up to build the next pyramid.
Slaves were bought as well, they have receipts as well, it’s just a way to make it “legal”. Even though the end purpose is the same.
Just because you’re paid and have a room, doesn’t remove the forced aspect of it, do you think they were free to say no and be able to do something else?
I wonder if, because that's how most of the world got things done for a little bit, we retroactively apply slavery as the only solution to how the ancients got stuff done?
Thats only part of the answer. There were slves in Egypt, everyone had them. They just weren't the labour pool for the pyramids as all the recently uncovered (last couple of decades) records indicate.
Nope, well paid workers who got vacation time and sick pay for such horrible conditions "stung by scorpion” (probably a metaphor for hangover), “bleeding wife” (wife on her period).
I mean the artisans who worked on the pyramids were payed quite well. They even got buried nearby when they eventually passed away.
And no, slaves were not the ones building a the pyramids.
From what I have seen the newest consensus seems to be that they were essentially a massive jobs program.
This is speculation but I'd bet there was some amount of less-than-voluntary aspect to the construction of at least some of the pyramids. As in "we'll pay you, but this is your job for the next 30 years while you're not harvesting."
to be fair, there was fuck all to do inbetween harvests. if someone came up to me as i'm bored out of my mind watching grains grow and said "hey wanna help build a huge fucking triangle? the pharaoh pays well" i'd say yes in a heartbeat. i doubt they had trouble finding workers
Should have just called it the pyramid scheme.
The ROI was eternal life
Do people just forget religion exists and believers take it fully seriously?
I honestly forget that frequently. My general attitude when any type of believer says something I consider obvious bullshit is to spend a couple of seconds thinking we're in on a pretend joke until it hits me.
In my experience the overwhelming maj{rity of believers don't. Theyll say they do and argue and gwt offended, bit its just an identity/social thing to them.
It's kinda sad,
Somebody once advanced the theory that the pyramids may have been public works projects, to keep the whole economy from collapsing. The pharaohs had accumulated so much of the available wealth, they spent some of it to put people to work. I think that's an interesting speculation.
So trickle down eventually works. You just have to let them get to godhood first. Got it.
Capitalism probably
Workers were paid. More interesting to ask why they built the pyramids.
'Paid'. When some egyptaboo tells you that "there weren't slaves in Egypt at this time", remember the 'workers' were paid in housing, bread, and beer. And were kinda bound by their duty to the God-Pharaoh. Totally not slavery!
Tho now thinking of it it's not like my wage stretches farther than that either...
Edit: spelling and punctuation are hard.
That's more than many people will get today from a single job. 💀
You can't be fucking serious.
I am. Feel free to talk with people about this who live in old vehicles, on a friends' couch or literally on the streets despite having a "job". Or those who only have proper housing and food by working two or more jobs.
Oh, one precision : people in the USA
Or other third world countries.
The only reason we don't have this shit in more rich countries often is that people receive welfare despite working a full-time job because it doesn't pay properly. In Germany we call this "aufstocken". Basically another way to create wage slavery and redirect money from the state towards the private sector. The US is just very obvious and very loud about everything. Other third world countries indeed don't have it any better.
🖐️Aliens🤚
they were actually paid labourers, the slave thing is a victorian invention i believe
it might be more biblical but I'm no historian
Religion.
The ROI was outstanding if it facilitated their journey to a good afterlife well.
It was a public works project, just like government jobs, infrastructure, and the military are for the US.
Death
Motive was someone's huge fucking ego to be remembered forever.
Glory and worship is equally addictive as profit. The whole point was to have a badass setup in the afterlife. So you could consider this "profit"
It's how the labour caste paid their taxes
In medieval times that's certainly true. Egyptian laborers were paid. Generally in food and housing, as coinage wouldn't be introduced for quite some time. Especially skilled laborers were sometimes given land. Egypt had a very routinized farming season and most laborers were farmers with nothing to farm in the off season.
Skilled stone masons could kinda go wherever so locking them in to work with taxes was a great way to get them to leave.
Fun fact, they had a daily meal of a particularly thick beer that had chunks of bread in it. And one time they went on strike when they ran out of wigs.
I mean the pyramids were wholly improductive multi-decade undertakings, so that's not making the point you think it's making.
Probably brought in some tourism revenue
In other words, capitalism is in no way necessary for human civilization.
Of course it's not necessary. The democracy +capitalism combo is just the least worst setup we figured out so far.
That's what the state propagandists tell us, anyway.
The global south would disagree with you.
Its working out pretty well for the wealthy in colonialist countries though.
Why does it sound like you think "least worst" is synonymous with "good"? And you are also combining your opinion of the type of system with specific implementations of it. The two are related, but separate. For example, an autocrat can be a fantastic leader, and overall great for their country and everyone in it. That doesn't mean an autocratic government is a good system in the general sense.
By what metric is capitalism the "least worst" system? Most of the people who defend capitalism have to sell their labor and own zero capital. The result is a two-tiered system where the obscenely wealthy exist right next to a vast majority who don't have enough savings to survive a minor emergency. This is the situation in rich countries. The ongoing exploitation throughout so-called "third-world" capitalist countries also speaks against capitalism.
Moreover, if socialism is such a bad system, why did America fight tooth and nail to stop it? Diplomatic isolation, trade embargos, propaganda, political assassinations. It is because socialism actually threatens the profits of the wealthy. The west can't exploit the land, labor, and resources of nations that place the workers in charge of their own workplaces. Maybe if the most powerful country in the history of the world wasn't working against it the system could prove its worth.
All of the democratic socialist countries would like a word. Unfortunately, the CIA already killed them all.
Edit: To clarify, capitalism + democracy goes out of its way to fuck any other burgeoning system from getting its legs. So, I don't think it's fair to state "it's the least worst".
Wasn't there some archeological evidence that many of the workers and their families were actually compensated?
Im not sure if its the great pyramid but I know some of the Egyptian great works were used as a jobs program during the off season of harvest.
Im sure the majority was slavery, but there was a tiny bit of good in those.
The profit motive was covered by the Pharaoh's exploitation of the entire nation of Egypt as his personal plantation and palace; each Pharaoh's Pyramid was the resulting useless passion project wasting all that accumulated profit. Albeit at reduced cost, considering the widespread use of corvee and legal limits on the ability of worker's to negotiate contracts with the agents of the Pharaoh compared to with non-government notables.
Aliens
It's real estate. They were playing the long game
Slavery.
Archaeologists aren't so sure.
https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/were-the-egyptian-pyramids-built-by-slaves
Who do you really trust on this topic: Lifelong scholars pursuing the truth with hard evidence, or the abrahamic texts?
The Bible doesn't actually say anything about slaves being used to build the pyramids or even mention the pyramids (as far I know, there may be an obscure mention in the minor prophets I don't know about). The idea of Israelite slaves building the pyramids is entirely cultural, and relatively recent. For example, in the middle ages, people believed that the pyramids were actually older than the story of Moses and Egyptian captivity, and attributed them to the biblical character Joseph, who appears in the Book of Genesis. I suspect the idea of Israelite slaves building the pyramids comes from early movies about the Exodus such as the blockbuster hit The Ten Commandments.
So you're saying the bible claims Egypt enslaved the abrahamic worshippers until after Moses, but because moses came after the pyramids that means the bible doesn't say the thing that it says.
Got it.
Does religion even being mentioned give you people brain damage or something? I am legitimately curious how you could have misread my comment so hard unless you were just foaming at the mouth about religion even being mentioned that you disregarded even the most basic thought about it. I am just saying that the Bible doesn't actually claim that enslaved Jews built the pyramids and doesn't even mention the pyramids at all, and I included the other stuff more to demonstrate that this is actually a pretty recent belief based mostly on Hollywood movies. Exodus clearly depicts Israelites being enslaved in Egypt, but I wasn't trying to dispute that.
Not brain damage, just forces us to relive trauma because Religion is a foul invention causing immeasurable harm throughout all of human history.
That's fine but you responded to a comment about facts with just completely unnecessary hostility.
Ancient superyacht
Whips. Lots of whips and middle managers.
Were the Egyptian pyramids built by slaves?
The Pharaohs were large plantation owners with enormous surplus foodstuffs, including livestock and garlic (which was highly prized for its medicinal value). And the workers were, in many ways, members of an enormous enthusiastic cult community that rewarded the construction of these mega-projects both economically and socially.
So, not all that far off from capitalism in the modern sense.
I mean at the same time
They used slaves for everything and paid them, so having a paid receipt is a weird distinction to try and make something less worse than it was.
"Capitalism in the modern sense"
You mean the wealth inequality, gig economy, being paid below a fair living wage, and unaffordable rent/bills keeping people in jobs they hate and aren't fit for?
Sounds more like slavery now than what the ancient Egyptians had. Sign me up to build the next pyramid.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Slaves
I believe the most recent understanding is that the builders would have been paid, actually.
We have the receipts and the village for the artisans. While it was difficult work they were well taken care of and well compensated.
So are/were a lot of slaves.
Being forced to do something with room and board is just slavery with a justification.
They have the receipts for their incomes and weren't listed as slaves by the the Egyptian state at the time.
They weren't forced they were hired.
That’s a distinction without a difference.
Slaves were bought as well, they have receipts as well, it’s just a way to make it “legal”. Even though the end purpose is the same.
Just because you’re paid and have a room, doesn’t remove the forced aspect of it, do you think they were free to say no and be able to do something else?
Why would you pay slaves?
Slaves in most of history receive payment - and considering that the payment in this discussion is in bread and beer...?
To make it not seem like slavery and give them more motivation.
Oh hey, yeah you’re totally not slaves, you can buy your freedom in 25 years, but how many make it that far as well.
Why not pay slaves, the money is all yours and comes right back. So why not in that situation?
Were they free to say no and do something else? You didn’t answer this question.
I wonder if, because that's how most of the world got things done for a little bit, we retroactively apply slavery as the only solution to how the ancients got stuff done?
Thats only part of the answer. There were slves in Egypt, everyone had them. They just weren't the labour pool for the pyramids as all the recently uncovered (last couple of decades) records indicate.
The vast majority of people who built the pyramids were paid laborers.
Source
Nope, well paid workers who got vacation time and sick pay for such horrible conditions "stung by scorpion” (probably a metaphor for hangover), “bleeding wife” (wife on her period).
Oh.
Not slaves, that is a myth.
Oh!