Spyke
feddit.de

Unfortunately it's not the people here that need to read this

72
Gormadtreply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

In this community? It's useful for talking points

Lemmy in general? There's a lot of people on Lemmy who need to read this.

73

You’d be surprised how widespread misunderstanding of systemic racism is, even on the left.

19

Aaand? People have always sent screenshots of posts from other social media on social media. Nothing new.

65
lemmy.blahaj.zone

Yes, lol.

But in my defense, I’ve had this saved on my phone for over a year, and I probably got it from /r/196 to begin with :p

18

I've been told that if you add the text "Made with Memetic" at the bottom, it counteracts the Snoo-pidity.

1
rabreply

Well how else am I gonna read it? Open it on reddit???

15

If you think that the problems (inequalities) racism brought ceased to exist with segregation, try learning about red-lining and how countless black neighborhoods got unfairly bulldozed to make space for highways. All that stuff happened only a lifetime ago, of course its effects can still be felt today.

::: spoiler . You could also use the same reasoning to argue that colonialism hasn't really ended either, when the colonialists went home they still left behind the scars of centuries of exploitation, that shit doesn't get washed away in a day. :::

34

Damn this is an excellent example. I'm 100% going to use this image in the future, thanks!

27
lemmy.world

The analogy is a little shaky but yeah that's a pretty good intro. The hard issue to solve here is with how this injustice is resolved. I think the most reasonable solution attacks the problem directly: rewriting racist laws (like zoning) and punishing or heavily disincentivising racist behavior in government officials (including police and judges). In the analogy, this would be equivalent to enacting hotel policies against discrimination and retrofitting disabled-accessible options into the building.

22
OrnateLunareply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

That still isn't directly Attacking the problem, you remove racist laws however you still have a system in place to add oppressive laws so they will come back. The problem isn't the laws or the government officials it's the whole damn system and unless you change the system it will continue to oppress. The hotel is designed to be discriminatory and to slowly go back to being discriminatory (as you said shaky anlogy) if changes are to be made. The only real solution is tearing the whole hotel down and building a park there

2
lemmy.world

I appreciate your response but I'm lost. What exactly is the system if it's not the government, the laws, and their lasting effects? Are we just talking about society?

3
OrnateLunareply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

Well the system I am talking in the broadest sense is hierarchy.

For someone or something to have the ability to oppress they must have more power over others and they must take that power away from those others ( you can't really oppress the U.S government bc it holds more power than you). Government holds more power bc it has taken that power away from me and you (think of all the regulations and restrictions put on us or laws), and they keep that power through force (i.e the police) This whole system of oppression enables even more direct violence, if the government had no power over people it couldn't systematically oppress black people or other minority groups.

And the thing is this power imbalance has and will always lead to certain groups being oppressed bc that is how it functions.

Now how do you actually build a system without violence and hierarchy well then you can learn about anarchism and it's proposed ways of living. Anark and Andrewism have good Intro videos about all of this.

0
lemmy.world

if there is no hierarchy at all and no one has more power than anyone else how do you have a government? If the government had no power over people it couldn't exist. Why would anyone care what they say?

1
lemmy.world

What view are they trying to counter here? I understand all the words of the post and I agree with the logic but I don't see in what situation this argument is useful. Perhaps I'm lucky not to have been exposed to the people for whom it would be useful...

Edit: I saw some very clear answers to my questions after scrolling down a bit. I think I just didn't understand what the term "systemic" meant here.

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drislandsreply
lemmy.world

There are people who believe that any kind of fix to counter discrimination is unnecessary, because "well I'm not racist, and I certainly haven't discriminated in X way, so nothing needs to change". They are either unaware or ignoring the reality that the effects of past discrimination don't go away just because the people that did it are gone.

22

Thank you. I never thought of it that way even though I'm quite passionate about the topic. Passionate but not well informed it seems...

10

"wow you are trying to punish x people for wrongdoings of their parents/grandparents" is the argument it's trying to counter.

21

But on top of that, the previous owner raised the new one. On top of the hotel issue we now have the same issues, but with the new owner

11
lemm.ee

It's different with racism, because it's easier and cheaper to stop racist practices than it is to modify a building. And modifying a building isn't hard or all that expensive.

7
lemmy.world

Does a business owner need to accommodate disabled people? Answer in your own opinion

6
lemmy.world

By law, yes, because you people wouldn't never account for any kind of minority unless if forced.

Y'all wouldn't return the cart unless to recover the coin. There's people beating up rough sleepers. People are intrinsically selfish

16
lemmy.world

Not all people are intrinsically selfish. Most people return the cart.

3
Holzkohlenreply
feddit.de

Tragedy of the commons. Just try using any free toilet at a highway rest. Last time for me I could not have used the urinal without standing in a puddle of dark yellow piss. People are assholes. Not all, but most. At least if nobody is looking and they can get away with it.

1

I think it's really about the level of effort people are willing to put in. I think most people are willing to expend some effort to not be a dick, some don't spend any, and a few people will spend a considerable amount.

1
lemmy.world

I don't find you digressing on my poor language skills as a valuable thing to add to the discussion. Would you kindly, bugger off?

9

He’s got a point, I had a lot of trouble deciphering what the hell you were trying to say lol

3

The only reasonable reason why not, would be that it would be impossible to do so. If you are physically able to add those accomodations and not doing it then well you are a bigot that makes people's lives more difficult on purpose.

2
lemmy.world

I thought this was fuckcars for a second and it would end differently , but very similarly!! Car centrism is another form of discrimination.

5

Yes! I’m very glad to live in a place where at 32 I still don’t need a driver’s license. I can see how crippling and isolating it can be to need a car (e.g. North America), but not being able to drive it.

7

I’m very much a car guy. I love cars, I love driving them, I love fixing them, etc.

I wholeheartedly wish they were purely optional. Please put less people on the roads, let more people use cheaper public transportation, and let those distracted drivers stay out of heavy machinery!

Not to mention, sometimes walking is just preferred. I visited Chicago without a car and it was fantastic. Walking and trains were all I needed, and it was great. Definitely want more of that around, especially for cross country options.

6

Idk who has to pay, are you trying to say old families that had slaves in any country and it can be proven they did should have to pay? So much shit that's happened in history has had no reparations.

3
lemmy.world

You want examples of systemic racism?

  • Poverty is inherited and it's impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Black people in America are poor because they used to be slaves
  • White cultural traditions are legal in Australia. Many aboriginal cultural traditions have been made illegal in Australia due to land ownership changes
  • Black people are under-represented in universities, so the university scientists building facial recognition apps aren't building them to work on black people
  • Schools teach their lessons in english. Multilingual students who don't speak english at home often have a disadvantage in lessons that will be felt their whole lives
  • Children of illegal immigrants may have never received identification such as a birth certificate and it can be hard to get this as an adult
  • Whenever the police use robotic and computer systems to detect criminals the AI ends up racial profiling and harassing black people
32
programming.dev

Poverty is inherited and it's impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Black people in America are poor because they used to be slaves

That's capitalism's fault. Poor white kids would face the same issues.

Black people are under-represented in universities, so the university scientists building facial recognition apps aren't building them to work on black people

That's just a lack of data points and not a system constructed by anyone. The data points should be increasing naturally.

Schools teach their lessons in english. Multilingual students who don't speak english at home often have a disadvantage in lessons that will be felt their whole lives

It'd be awesome if we can just solve language barriers generally. Before we can do that having a single official language in working situations seems to be not avoidable for productivity.

Children of illegal immigrants may have never received identification such as a birth certificate and it can be hard to get this as an adult

Not related to racism.

Whenever the police use robotic and computer systems to detect criminals the AI ends up racial profiling and harassing black people

Is this happening? I think it's straight out wrong to predict criminals with AI trained on previous data.

All in all I agree that many of the existing systems sucks but I don't think it's helpful to link every problem to racism. Disclaimer: I'm not black or white

8

That’s just a lack of data points and not a system constructed by anyone. The data points should be increasing naturally.

But why is the data lacking in the first place?

9
programming.dev

Lack of public black faces as suggested by previous comment? That's not a "system" tho, which would imply something like a policy to reject black faces as learning data.

6
Rozaŭtunoreply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

That’s capitalism’s fault. Poor white kids would face the same issues.

True, but that's not what the discussion was about. Black kids are disproportionately poorer than white kids, and that's because they inherited inequalities from the past, which came about because of slavery and systematic racism.

It’d be awesome if we can just solve language barriers generally. Before we can do that having a single official language in working situations seems to be not avoidable for productivity

What you are suggesting is a lingua franca, which is already the norm in multilingual countries. That's quite different from having a colonial language dominating over the others.

7

Lingua franca is a language that 2 groups speaking a different language both understand, English is a lingua franca.

It makes sense to teach in 2 languages when bit percentages of the population speak them, in the case of America teaching native American language would be pointless for the children aside from preventing the language from dying

0
Squidsreply
sopuli.xyz

I'd add for the "school in English/dominant spoken language" part (because compared to the other it doesn't seem that bad) in a quite a few cases it stems from a previous active effort to suppress a culture that was never really 'fixed', not simply just "eh I don't understand so why do I have to cater for it?".

If you're European, chances are you can name a good few examples that happened in your borders, both as something you did or something that was used against you

7
guyreply
lemmy.world

Schools teach their lessons in english.

When you have to pick a language to teach in, isn't this the best language to teach in though, in a predominantly English speaking society?

I don't think segregating classes into separate language-based ones would be a good idea. That leaves kids not speaking English at home nor at school in an even bigger disadvantage in terms of learning English and we need we need kids of all different backgrounds mixing together so that they may understand and accept one another.

6
lemmy.world

The solution are extra English lessons for both the kids and the parents, and financial support so that the parents can afford the time to learn English at these classes

10
guyreply
lemmy.world

That's a good solution, yes.

Though good luck convincing governments, that continue to cut funding for important social programs like these, to bother supporting minorities in schools.

3
lemmy.world

That's what this post is about. We have racially biased systems, and we can implement solutions to fix them, but it's not free because nothing's free. It's still worth doing.

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Rozaŭtunoreply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

When you have to pick a language to teach in, isn’t this the best language to teach in though, in a predominantly English speaking society?

And how did that society become predominantly English speaking? You just highlighted the point OOP was making.

English (and French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc) became dominant by pushing the native languages on the brink of extinction through systematic racism. So now that the damage is done, instead of fixing it, we just carry on and deny kids the right to receive an education in their native language? (Speeding up the rate of extinction)

0

I'm from the UK, we are the natives here.

Though, I would agree in the UK when it comes to other native languages under threat, like Scottish Gaelic and Welsh.

However, I still think in any English speaking country, proficient English is the most important thing a child can learn in order to thrive in modern society. And separating children of different languages is not a good thing, it only makes racism worse. Instead, we should focus on lessons and programs that teach other native languages, to preserve them, and also teach English to those that don't speak it at home.

Teaching and preservation programs have worked well for Welsh and the language is growing once again.

5
heirdreply
lemmy.ml

Poverty: Same thing for any people of any race the most important part is their ability to get an education that'll get them out of it while having stability, slavery has nothing to do with it.

Australia: I live in Australia what are you talking about?!

Black people are up to 4 times more likely to be accepted in American medical universities due to diversity quotas https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med.png

Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!

It makes sense that the government doesn't want to encourage illegal immigration.

So facial recognition doesn't work on black people but ai facial recognition can discriminate against them?

Seriously it seems that your taking all this out of your imagination.

1

Poverty: Same thing for any people of any race the most important part is their ability to get an education that’ll get them out of it while having stability, slavery has nothing to do with it.

Whataboutism. Black people are poor exactly because they descend from slaves. When the slaves got freed, most of them were destined to poverty, and poverty is inherited under capitalism.

Australia: I live in Australia what are you talking about?!

About all the aboriginals that went through genocide, both physically and culturally, for about 200 years?

Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!

Yes, monolingual countries are mostly a thing only in the western world. Most of the world is multilingual, and it has been for most of human history. And there's a big difference between having a lingua franca and being dominated by a colonial language.

3

And yet black people only make up 7% of med school matriculants. Given that roughly 14% of the us population is black, this indicates a systemic issue preventing black people from achieving a level of educetion to even apply to med school.

Meanwhile, white people have entry rates as expected for their proportion of the general population, and asian applicants have entry rates twice what you would expect: 12% of the population is taking 22% of the seats.

These numbers are American, but thats also the country where "diversity quotas" are an issue. What we can see from the outcomes is that the opportunity is given out unequally from the very beginning, and thus even with an entrance process with a bias towards black people, the system as a whole is so biased against black people that half as many are able to participate

3
barsoapreply
lemm.ee

Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!

Over here we have schools which teach completely in Danish and hand out both German and Danish graduation papers, we have schools offering native-level classes in Frisian... Frisians don't really care about more they've always been bilingual. Even more so our Sinti, they don't want to see the language in schools at all but teach it inside the family, they've also always been bilingual. Frankly speaking we're doing more for our autochthone minorities language-wise than we do for ourselves, which would be protecting Low Saxon against the steady onslaught of Standard German.

But, no, we won't start teaching whatever Portuguese just because you arrived here recently and speak Portuguese. Best results are achieved when kids learn the majority language in kindergarten, on the playground, in school, while still speaking their parent's native language at home as that ensures that they're learning both languages properly. It's a matter of experience: Back in the 60s Turkish parents were told to speak German with their kids at home and the result was that the kids learned broken German and their Turkish sucks. That's not just a matter of not knowing those two languages properly as they never learned any languages properly there's measurable developmental delays.

Transposing that to America you should have plenty of schools teaching in native languages. Of course don't mandate everything being taught like that as that would segregate minorities, but things like maths in English and history in Lakota or whatever make perfect sense.

Circling back to black folks: It's high time AAVE is recognised as a proper variety of English. None of that "you're doing grammar wrong", or (in courts) "we'll pretend that you speak Standard English thus not provide a translator, then misunderstand you (tenses and aspects be hard) and lock you up based on that". If a decent number of your students speak AAVE natively it'd also be high time to teach its grammar on a native level, that can happen in ordinary English classes it's, after all, English.

So facial recognition doesn’t work on black people but ai facial recognition can discriminate against them?

Bias in data is always a problem. Take me: I have legs. I'm a man. Supposedly, when I buy trousers made for men they should fit me but all the data that clothing designers have seems to indicate all men are storks so I have to buy trousers for overweight people and then hem ass and waist. And I don't even fucking work out. Soap dispenser doesn't work for you because noone ever bothered to test it on black skin? Same shit just affecting a historically oppressed minority. Personally I wouldn't even call it an issue as it tends to get sorted out very quickly once the bias is spotted, unlike my issue which noone seems to care about because y'all are fucking storks.

As to the police thing: No it's really an issue in the US and it's not systemic racism it's plain racism. Policy makers know all too well that overpolicing breeds crime yet they do it and then say "we need to overpolice even more because black people do so much crime".

3

Americans already struggle to teach English to their people and you want to have them teach dying tongues?

Only 79% of Americans were literate in 2022 from 91% in the 60s

0

What would be equivalent of "no disabled parking" in this case when it comes to racist institutions?

One needs to be more precise when pointing out systematic racism, you need to point out which rules or regulations are made to be "white race centric", which rules exactly hinder the progress of black/brown people.

Also, I think analogy can also be taken in bad way as black people are being being considered handicapped or inferior and the institutions should make special arrangements to accomodate them. And that's completely not true, as obviously the only difference is skin color. But, yeah, that's another way of looking at this analogy.

1