Whoever coined the phrase "it's not my job to educate you" is top of my rogues gallery. If you want democracy to succeed, it is literally your job to educate everyone you can about the things you are passionate about and the changes you wish to see. I get where it came from, I understand the feeling, but it's the worst possible phrase in the context of trying to make a political change.
It really didn't. Maybe 10 people said it because they were being harassed by concern trolls, while the rest of us continued to engage in conversation with people who seemed like they might genuinely be confused.
Like literally just do a web search for your question and you will be on better footing when you ask it.
Like I felt offended the first time I heard "my culture is not a costume" but I actually did some reading / thinking before I started bothering people with questions like what??? or even banditos?? or what about mummies?
I feel like a lot of progressive vocabulary words get used outside the contexts where they apply.
"It's not my job to educate you" is a fair and valid thing to say when someone demands you defend the validity of your identity while you're just trying to live your life. It's unreasonable to expect every trans person to explain the history and complexity of gender to every chud who gives them shit.
It is, however, the opposite of activism and super unhelpful for an activist to say while ostensibly trying to build a movement.
Similarly, "mansplaining" is not a blanket term for any man explaining anything, listening to a friend vent is not "emotional labor", and participating in cultures other than the one you grew up in is not "cultural appropriation". All real terms that point at real problems, all sometimes used outside the contexts in which they are helpful.
Sure, I personally don't use "academic" terms against other people. It does make the words lose meaning, which is why I use context and followup questions to really understand if the distinction is important.
I think it's ok to bemoan the semantic drift of useful terms, away from the people trying to simply communicate with me. (No point in chastising.)
I'm not sure where you are getting where I am "ripping apart someone adjacent to me."
Yeah I mean I can understand not everyone wants to be an educator, especially of more ignorant people but when people say this I do wonder why they are even talking. I usually speak to people because I am interested in learning from them or because they’re interested in learning from me. This is the purpose of human communication. If you aren’t interested then the obvious solution is to stay silent.
I can understand not everyone wants to be an educator, especially of more ignorant people but when people say this I do wonder why they are even talking.
Exactly. If you're not willing to try and educate someone you disagree with, insulting them is no substitute (in fact it's pretty much the worst course of action re the presumed desired result), just keep quiet, or alternatively go talk to others who already agree with you so you can stroke each other's egos, lol.
When out distributing political flyers people will often come up to me pretending to want a conversation and learn something about my/our points, but just talk over me all the time. Their purpose is not to listen, or to learn, or to question, but just to feel like they matter.
Had a guy recently tell me about how he is a mechanic and that he did his own study where he found out that combustion engines do not, in fact, let out any CO2. He started it all with "give me 3 reasons to vote for you" to put me on the spot, then immediately was like "ok, I have 3 not to do it."
There is no conversation with people like that, I've tried it often. Now I just wish them a nice day and go away as it's not my job to waste time trying go educate them talking against an idiot wall.
It's not exactly the sentiment I have a problem with. There are definitely people who aren't worth engaging with and there's a time to walk away, as someone else in this thread pointed out they do. Responding in a kind of snarky, condescending tone rather than just walking away does not help you.
Think about an online thread where this happens: Someone is making an argument, and a troll appears. They engage for a bit, but realize they aren't going to make any progress. Walking away let's the thread die, and people who stumble upon it in the future will likely recognize the troll for what they are and consider the argument. Responding with condescension instead makes the person appear to only be arguing for self-aggrandizement rather than to actually help or improve anything, and it can poison the argument they made before. It plays right into the troll's hands.
This is like talking about awareness and then driving away in a Tesla. The people who are feasting upon our institutions made AI. The same people we are protesting that infested this regime.
Treating criticism like an attack is the enemy of progress, and ironically more perfectionist than being able to acknowledge flaws in your messaging too.
If you know the post is AI and you don’t delete the post, that is tacit endorsement of using AI as a propaganda tool. You seem unbothered by that.
I do ignore the message if the medium is artificial. I won’t bother to read the image’s text or attempt to process the intent if I know the delivery is not genuine. I’m not going to waste my time or sully my brain by valuing and evaluating something posing as human expression.
You want me on your team? Don’t send a robo singing telegram as a recruiting tool. Convey your message like we’re humans instead of speaking through a fundamentally false impersonator. I don’t ask you to be a perfect human — I ask that you and your messages are genuine if you want me to listen. Trickery isn’t used to gain allies; it’s used to exploit the unwitting.
A message isn't a genuine message, because the choice of instrument to prepare it is disliked.
Even if the text is the same, it's the product of a "false impersonator" & "trickery".
Here neither: merely pointing out your argument is invalid (which it is), is not an argument that your conclusion is false, which I simply didn't bother to claim.
Would bothering to claim & argue it's false (reusing your words) "waste my time" & "sully" my attention with an invalid argument?
Reusing your language even more
You know the comment is invalid and you don’t delete it, that is tacit endorsement of fallacies.
You seem unbothered by that.
I do ignore the message if it is irrational.
I won’t weigh your ideas further than necessary if I know the reasoning is poor.
I’m not going to waste my time or sully my brain by valuing and evaluating something posing as good reasoning that isn't.
You want me on your team?
Don’t disrespect my attention with your poorly reasoned demands.
Convey your message like we understand logic instead of abusing our attention with a pretense of a well-thought argument.
I don’t ask you to be a perfect human — I ask that you and your messages respect logic if you want me to listen.
Flawed reasoning isn’t used to gain allies; it’s used to mislead & exploit the unwitting.
While I don't completely agree with that argument, either (especially the first paragraph), insisting on reasoning/substance seems way more compelling than that original argument (rejecting a message over superficial considerations).
You absolutely can, but reasons that it's right or logical are lacking or conflicted.
Rejecting a message is worthy of consideration over style is something an irrational person does.
It's a classic fallacy.
Anything digital, electronic, or mechanical is artificial.
They want "genuine" human expression, and the printing press is impersonal, mass-produced schlock.
Gotta go full quill & parchment on this, hand delivered.
It’s distasteful, but a useful weapon. We need ways to create content that is good enough and really fast to make. A grassroots movement doesn’t have the funds to pay marketing teams to do our work for us.
AI is being used every social media site the world over to hamper discourse, embroil people, to enrage people...
I don't know of another way to combat it except with more AI. Maybe at some point people will completely get off of the internet with the thought "There's no real people on the internet any more".
Or here’s a discussion on r*ddit about how Glaze is totally ineffective against poisoning image generation AIs. (Same principles apply to others like Nightshade)
Basically every poisoning technique is by its very nature too specific to be useful for poisoning all the types of AI out there, or is too invasive and ruins the content for humans too, or is not strong enough and it gets lost in the cacaphony of data anyway.
Really it’s a clever idea in principle but in practice AI poisoning isn’t really a mathematically viable way to combat AI.
You can't avoid AI or things that use AI. We've been using these statistical models WELL before they became mainstream. And they mimic human authors well enough that it's impossible in many cases.
Critique. This wouldnt have been hard to make in a presentable way without AI. I get it, I'm just saying now is the time to burn all bridges. Change is coming either way.
OP, accessibility is important.
Don't provide images of text when there's real text.
If you insist on the image, then provide alt text.
You only limit reach with just an image & mark your message as exclusionary, contrary to your goals.
Quoting the person who is being critiqued isn't effective rhetoric... The whole point is that he isn't convincing because he's unable to not be a hypocrite for half a second. Pointing to his hypocrisy uncritically again doesn't do anything to excuse the issue. If you actually want to convince anyone to follow the advice above, you need to do more than exist vaguely nearby. So do better, because this was a pathetic attempt and should never be repeated.
The whole point is that he isn't convincing because he's unable to not be a hypocrite for half a second. Pointing to his hypocrisy uncritically again doesn't do anything to excuse the issue.
Nothing you said is even vaguely related to what has been said in this thread. Where do you think you are right now?
Lol. Do you call everything you can't read deranged? Because the hungry hungry caterpillar also makes sense to the literate among us.
I'm talking to cilethesane about how they're uncritically quoting nonsense without adding anything to the discussion as though it furthers any point and I'm in this thread. You know where you are too, but you definitely are lost my dude
This is fucking "genocide Joe" all over again, just much more stupid because literally no one has been harmed by the creation and posting of this image.
Has OP stolen a job from some other artist by posting their meme? Maybe they should have commissioned it?
I get it, trying the force AI into everything as an excuse to not hire people is dumb as fuck, but this post is not doing that. People using it to make shit posts and memes is fine.
Why do you ignore the steps required to get here? The model doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor did it automagically will itself into existence.
By the creation and posting, no one has been harmed, but the model's development sits atop the stolen works of artists worldwide. Now these companies are trying to obviate artists. Harm was a prerequisite for this image's creation.
You're just ignoring the steps required to get to this "harmless" phase. It's like saying "ffs, why do you want people to stop buying Nestlé where possible? Is wanting cookies evil now?"
Genuinely, why does none of this matter to you?
I'm not mad that AI exists, nor that people want to use it—so do I. But I can't just ignore how they were made, or what the normalization of GenAI usage legitimizes.
Please don't make comparisons to genocide joe. This isn't the same (I can go into this if needed, but I hope you see why), and I'm not even from the US.
Did OP build and train the models? This makes as much sense as blaming OP for using the Internet to spread their message, because the "steps required" to get to the Internet include massive contributions to global warming, abusing and stealing the labour of the working class, and the genocide of indigenous populations. Why does none of this matter to you?
"ffs, why do you want people to stop buying Nestlé where possible?"
If OP is paying for access to the AI generation then they should not do that and provide them with profit. There are plenty of methods to get it for free so there is no reason to assume OP paid for it.
Please don't make comparisons to genocide joe. This isn't the same
Of course it isn't. Israel's genocide is a real issue that people actively made worse because having Palestinians die is easier than making the mental effort of thinking through the consequences of their actions (or inaction), and considering that sometimes all you can do is prevent something from getting worse.
This is just people refusing to engage with helpful messaging intended to help organize group solidarity because of a knee-jerk reaction, instead of considering if this image actually contributed to the harm AI causes in any way.
Both are people being intellectually lazy and pretending they are morally superior.
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
HUMAN creative skill. AI is not human, has no creativity, no skill. It is not art.
However, you have to be careful that your movement doesn't get infiltrated, because that will hurt your movement. You have to be careful who you are walking with, and what their end goals are.
Don't protest for a better health care system with people that are antiscientific. Don't protest for a free Palestine together with antisemitic people. Do not let them blur your message.
One thing I've been grappling with is I would completely support a violent overthrow of the Trump admin, as I don't consider him legitimate because of the insurrection clause, but I would never ever even discuss the subject with a bunch of tankies or anarchists because they're just supporting destruction of our protected rights all the same as the enemy.
I really wish my fellow "progressives" would get it through their heads how deeply true it is that perfection is the enemy of progress. It's supremely ironic that so many people who say they value freedom and individuality are so ABSOLUTELY intolerant of any slight deviations from what they see as moral perfection and adherence to doctrines. It's like you're either a hundred percent right or ten thousand percent wrong, and even suggesting there can be an in-between is being "complicit". Lighten the fuck up or we'll never get anywhere.
That sounds like something an enemy would say, right before they disagree with my objectively correct opinion about some minor thing and reveal their true nature.
the importance of that relatively minor thing also matters though, we can't just purity test everybody for everything, even if it's objectively correct, not all of it matters.
true i hate winning, i hope we keep losing so we can keep up the facade of pretending to be good instead of actually doing something to solve the problem, because we would probably fuck up.
I personally deeply desire to be a noble loser and a perfect victim.
To die ethically unassailable, with no questionable acquaintances and no discord with progressive consensus, that is the goal we should all strive for.
Our flesh may be weak and vulnerable, but at least my spirit is secularily sainty, perfect, untarnished by compromise and realpolitik.
It feels like action, it feels like some kind of accomplishment that you got some progressive content creator railroaded off the internet because they had a dumb take on israel once or used the R slur at some point.
that's great, but does it actually accomplish anything? That's what really matters, it doesn't matter if you run some weirdo out of town because he moderately disagrees with you, if he just goes to the next town over, where more people are waiting for him...
Nah dude, if you tolerate fascists in any space, they use that space to recruit and try to transform the space for their needs. I've heard this from renfaire folks, who had to drive the fascists out of the space to keep it sane. I've heard about this happening in work places too. You gotta organize with non-fascists and drive the fascists out of the space by being vocally and actively supportive of groups they despise.
I agree with this. If you've ever worked with someone that was awesome to work with and the whole space was left empty when they moved to another company, than you've experienced the opposite of a nazi. One toxic, shitty dude can make the whole place go down the toilet. It really only takes one to change a place.
Want to know what the single biggest recruiting tool Nazis use, that nobody seems to ever talk about? Prison.
I've seen normal, non-bigoted people end up getting busted for a minor drug charge or something stupid, then they go to prison, get their heads filled with racist crap, and then come out sieg-heiling Nazis.
Prison is basically a Nazi-making factory at this point, so why does nobody ever talk about this?
And it gets complicated, because bad actors use this to make spaces for cult behaviour.
Not just nazi specifically, but if you have spammers/bots you can effectively destroy any moderately nuanced progressive space by adding intentional offensive voices in the group, and at reactive voices outside the group calling the original members x/y and pointing at the bots in the group as evidence. Progressive voices will leave to avoid the association, while actual bigots will hear that it is another space for them. By the end, it's like it was always a bigot space, and the original points and nuance never existed.
Beware divisive propaganda, but also don't accept actual intentional bigots to invade a space. If they proudly wear their bigotry, let them know it's not socially tolerated. They are a cancer if enabled.
If someone says they interact with a space to try and stop it from turning into a bigot space, maybe that's not actually your enemy.
Been fighting cult building propaganda for two decades and now I'm just yelling that the emperor has no clothes. It makes me happy to see people at least engaging with the topic, without calling me a nazi for trying to stop the spread of Nazis.
Also casual reminder that black Americans are Russia's biggest target. Self segregation is what they want, don't fall for divisive rhetoric. Be wary of real bigots, especially socially empowered ones. find people you can trust, and find solidarity. Don't feed the division between those who want to cooperate. Education, exposure, and communication are paramount.
True. In addition to that it's close to far-right rhetoric. I'm not saying whether it's correct or wrong... But they sure like to play victim and say people will label them a nazi if they talk about subjects or to certain people. And they're being wronged.
Did we already forget the almost overnight shift in what was seen as acceptable discourse once Trump won in 2016? All these intolerant and hateful assholes crawled out and felt emboldened to chirp christofascist/racist/delusional conspiracies in public and online spaces. And that zeitgeist shift pulled the Overton Window sharply to the right, paving the road for our current situation.
If someone’s basic political ideology is “government should industrialize state murder of X group/s” they are not someone I can make common cause or find sympathetic arguments with, or not without a lot of cult de-programming first.
There is no 'deprogramming', the few ex-maga you see are mostly social media grifters. Even those disgusted by Drumpf's antics aren't any less cuntservative and will gladly vote for cheetolini's hand-picked successor
There's a reason that warlords used to put every man, woman, and child to the sword after a defeat
Like the Muslim voters in Michigan that voted for Trump because they didn't like Harris' support of Israel and then immediately had ICE breathing down their necks
This is true, but it's a good reminder that most people don't act like this meme. We should remember that minorities don't owe us their vote, and we should stand up for them
Right? Like, if someone's promising Free Grog and Good Times, they're probably LeChuck in disguise.
Yes, I made an Escape From Monkey Island reference.
First time I played that game, I felt stupid for not realizing the guy named "Charles L. Charles" with the same voice actor as LeChuck, was in fact, LeChuck.
Especially since the joke behind the Charles L Charles character is how easy it's supposed to be to see the twist coming, and my autistic ass just took the character at face value.
Or they could have voted for Harris and not had to deal with mass deportations and then tried to stop the genocidal acts. Instead they voted to continue the genocidal acts AND get deported. If the problem persists either way, why vote to fuck yourself twice?
Left wing groups in general tend to do a lot of purity testing online , offline is a whole different story... as a queer person it buggs me tf out of my mind that people do that
I have no idea what this is targeting... I've never encountered anything like what you're describing. What exactly are you conveying that is earning you criticism from the LGBTQ community?
I'm not shalafi but for example Blahaj and 196 is notoriously trigger happy with bans. I got permanently banned from like 5 communities all at once there for having one very tame civil discussion about where the overlap between gay and trans begins and ends. They're also the most well known instance for defederations.
Perfect is a pretty evil enemy of good… and we think we’re doing the right thing by being sticklers
If I had a nickel for every time one person got mad at another for not being as far left as them by a difference of a single millimeter, I’m sure I’d have like a buck over the past couple years.
Every so often I check my messages at Facebook and noted there’s a big 50501 group there… any chance you could get that group to start educating their Facebook members that supporting Facebook means supporting the coup and fascism?
Using Facebook to attract disgruntled hostiles who are potentially ripe for recruitment, or those who are politically agnostic and getting angry at what is happening to them, and poisoning one of their primary propganda mouthpieces, are all important missions.
How about don't ask the opposition to host it and instantly doxx every person who touches that link?
Just a thought. No fucking clue what is actually on the other side of that blue text and I'm not going to check
My thought here is that corporate owned social media needs to be destroyed and the best way to do that is to make it irrelevant — the way folks already in the Fediverse find it.
The way to make it irrelevant is to make it a ghost town.
Dreaming big, I wrote something for… Facebook idiots that might… just might… be persuaded to try something new. It’s just a doc. I can paste in the text? I guess I’m not tracking what you are concerned about?
I’m so new to the Fediverse myself, I don’t know about the closest thing there is to google docs? Educate me. I’ll pop the doc on that and then delete this link.
The coup? Who is overthrowing what exactly? I seriously just dont understand these things. I can't imagine it's very legit if there hasn't been a call to arms. That's why we bear arms, right? For perhaps an attempted coup.
I'll bite. What do we as liberals get out of this genocide? Are you gonna say our stock in Lockheed will go up? Because not all of us liberals have stock in Lockheed.
Well the democrats were very clearly pro genocide so idk why you would think it's not part of the liberal platform???? Don't the democrats represent us?
For this among a dozen other excellent reason, including and especially being generally incompetent at achieving their stated goals, Democrats do not represent me.
Never forget that even though we knew that Stalin was a vicious mass murderer of his own people, we allied with him to defeat Hitler, and it is highly unlikely that we could have done it without out them, or at least it would have taken us far longer, and cost many more lives.
We turned on each other the moment the war was over, but at least we could agree to put aside our differences for the time being.
It is likely that when it comes time to finally put down the rabid dog named MAGA once and for all, it is going to require allying with the Traditional GOP. I despise them with everything I have, and will want accountability when this is over, but if they are willing to assist us in purging MAGA from society, we are going to have to hold our noses and accept their help.
It is likely that when it comes time to finally put down the rabid dog named MAGA once and for all, it is going to require allying with the Traditional GOP.
Kamala tried that, it lead to Leftists not voting for Kamala Harris because they no longer saw a difference between her and Trump, and Rightists didn't vote for Kamala Harris because even the "Never-Trumper" faction of the party gets in line behind whoever the GOP tells them to. Because Republicans have something Democrats will never have, unquestionable brand loyalty.
MAGA will be not be defeated by cooperating with Conservatives who fear that they "Must defeat Trump to save the party", this is because Conservatives do not have an ideology, they have a tribe, and their tribe must always win or their Gods will hold them accountable.
If Conservatives turn against MAGA, it will be because they've been directly targeted by MAGA and are looking for a way out, and by the time that happens it'll already be too late. "No one left to speak for me" as the poem goes.
That said, the Right Wing portion of the Supreme Court is turning against Trump for this exact reason, they realize that if they don't he will just get rid of the Supreme Court and rule directly.
If "The TRUE Republicans" wanted to work with us to destroy Trumpism, I'd gladly accept their help, but they will NEVER work against the tribe.
Then again, you sound like a tankie so you'd probably favor a Stalin-esque communist-style rule where the government disappears people on a whim like they had in the Soviet Union.
With that in mind, I'm surprised you don't agree with Trump's policy of sending dissidents to El Salvadorian gulags. Tankies love making dissidents disappear, after all.
Personally, I think Free America and the Allies would be teaming up with the Mexican Cartels. If anyone can terrorize the Trump Regime, it would be them. IMO, it wouldn't be surprising if Mexico and the Allies promise to give away Texas to the Cartels as a spoil of war.
yeah. There's a difference between (for example) a transphobe screaming at you, and someone who doesn't fully understand all the terms but supports you being yourself. People in the comments are thinking it's more of the former than the ladder.
In 1980 they took a poll of people who had been eligible to vote in the 1960 election between John Kennedy and Richard Nixon. One of the questions they asked was 'who did you vote for in 1960?' In real life, the election was 51-49% a real squeaker. However, according to the poll, it was a 90-10% blow out for JFK.
Less 2-dimensional and self-gratifying than you endlessly posting your Qanon-style conspiracy theory about how all of America's problems are actually due to the perfidious machinations of conniving foreigners.
Voting for a genocidal nazi to prevent another genocidal nazi is not how you stop genocidal nazis. This poster is not about electoralism, but addressing its inherent failure in any state wherein the discussion on genocide is not whether or not to do it, but to whom.
You made the Gaza genocide worse, enabled Israel to attack more countries, screwed the people of Ukraine, and got mass deportations and attacks on transpeople in the USA.
Keep telling me what a great job you did.
Adults realize that sometimes there are no good choices, on bad ones and terrible ones.
No, you people and the fascist slogan of 'vote blue no matter who,' did quite literally all of that. Liberals have been the only people in history to willingly embrace fascism, and you've done it again. Each time so far by voting for the lesser evil by your fucked up definition until it just happens. All because you're scared of classless societies.
Liberals appointed Hitler to stop them evil commies, liberals chose to get trump elected to stop them evil democratic socialists.
I'm pretty sure next time you'll elect super Hitler to stop them evil neoliberals that are just too left wing for you all.
No. The genocide was just as bad under the Democrats, you were just a genocide denier when it was your team doing it. In that sense, Trump has actually been better for Gaza, because at least liberals like you will actually acknowledge what's happening there under him, rather than downplaying and denying it.
look man, you and i both hate the current trump admin ok, let's start there, and work on what we agree upon, and then we diverge when we get past that point.
The leftists control the new leadership and the Neoliberals get in line to support us.
The Neoliberals have had too much of a say and 50 years of them in control of the Democratic party have turned it soft and corporatist. Meeting in the middle with fascists has only brought us closer to fascism.
You can get with the movement or get out of the way.
look bro, if you can get a lefty in, AOC whoever, doesn't matter as long as they have a base line of intelligence high enough to unfuck the trump admin, and you get them backed by the party, by all means i will vote for them.
You can get with the movement or get out of the way.
i'll stay out of the way if you want me to, but don't come crying to me when you lose over it.
The Democratic party, which is a private organization and has been controlled by Neoliberals for 50 years, will never support a canidate that will force the rich to make concessions.
Which is why if Bernie and AOC tell us to vote for the Neoliberals again we have to choose someone else.
Right? I hate Neo Liberals to, but the thing is, we don't have the luxury of combatting Status Quo, we are in the unenviable position of trying to hold onto the corrupt status quo because the alternative is demonstrably and unspeakably worse.
I keep hearing people say this meaning "We need to let Republicans kill trans people". It seems to be a thought terminating cliche to pull out against anyone further left than the speaker.
As a trans person, that absolutely isn't how I or other leftists in the spaces I'm in use this phrase. It means to avoid letting disagreement over method or end goal distract from a common cause. Just because a candidate doesn't run for my specific brand of leftism doesn't mean I won't support them over a neoliberal opponent.
I am unsure whether this is AI generated or not. Checking the crosspost to ![email protected] confirmed that other people also thought this may be AI generated.
The more i read "neoliberal" in political movement discussions, the more i get the feeling its the new "slap this label on anything you dont fully agree with to disqualify them imedietly"-label
Did you just "everyone I don't like is a nazi" me?
Words have meaning dummy
Neoliberals differ from leftists because Neoliberalism depends on maintaining the status quo and appealing to Capital, which is not helpful when we need to redistribute wealth.
I mearly stated that i am observing people throwing this word around, slapping it on anyone they disagree with.
More ofc in online "discussions" than in irl.
I know they differ. I get called neo liberal for saying a violent uprising isnt the way to archive socialism and the soviet union as well as china, Laos and vietnam were/are evil countrys that did evil things and perverted what socialism is about
Sadly, I keep trying to explain this to tankies, but they insisted NOT voting for Kamala because she wasn't going to use the Dragon Balls to bring back every Palestinian killed by Israel was a power move...
You're right. We liberals saw that Kamala and Biden did only the bare minimum genocide necessary. It's better than the extreme amounts of genocide trump is doing. Tankies often miss this point.
The point isn't that there's a magical "Correct Amount" of genocide that is acceptable.
The point is that there is no magical solution that saves Palestine, there was however an option that made an already horrible scenario even worse, and that's the option we took in large part thanks to people who thought not voting would be good for anyone's health.
Kamala may not have cared about the lives she was helping snuff out under Biden's watchful eye, but at least she wasn't outright planning to build a fucking resort atop the mass graves. (Trump Gaza ring any bells to you?)
By the way, I'm a transwoman, I'm seeing ciswomen get awarded for "Standing up" against my kind, as my existence is being publically reframed as an affront to women's rights in what I can only imagine is the greatest dream TERF-kind ever had.
This wouldn't be happening under Kamala.
There are already states planning to illegalize "Gender Identity Fraud" in attempt to CRIMINALIZE MY VERY EXISTENCE
The point isn’t that there’s a magical “Correct Amount” of genocide that is acceptable.
But there is an amount you were able to accept, an acceptable amount, if you will.
there was however an option that made an already horrible scenario even worse
No. The genocide was just as bad under Democrats, you were just a genocide denier when it was your team doing it. In that sense, it's better that Trump won, because at least liberals acknowledge what's happening when he does it, rather than downplaying and denying it.
And that's a real killer for the "lesser evil argument": that the people making it seem to lose the ability to appraise their evil correctly.
but at least she wasn’t outright planning to build a fucking resort atop the mass graves. (Trump Gaza ring any bells to you?)
Jesus Christ. You people really do only care about appearances and don't give a shit about human life. She also planned on exterminateing the Palestinians and building on the mass graves, but because it would just be fascist settlements and not something garish like a resort, that's fine?
Again, the lesser evil argument falls flat when everyone espousing it loses their ability to identify what evil is.
By the way, I’m a transwoman, I’m seeing ciswomen get awarded for “Standing up” against my kind, as my existence is being publically reframed as an affront to women’s rights in what I can only imagine is the greatest dream TERF-kind ever had.
This wouldn’t be happening under Kamala.
And there is: it's all fine so long as you personally aren't on the receiving end of the genocide.
When the Democratic party decides that Trans people are a necessary sacrifice and joins the Republicans in calling for their repression, are you still going to be demanding everyone votes for them?
The point is that there is no magical solution that saves Palestine, there was however an option that made an already horrible scenario even worse,
First of all, the democrats were in charge when most of the genociding was happening. They let it get this bad in the first place, don't play it off like it was just some pre existing scenario that was handed to us.
Secondly, by the sounds of it, you accepted that what was happening to the gazans. In order for the democrats to have a chance to win, it was necessary. So tell me why you have a problem with my wording?
Edit: and now if we're looking for someone to blame.. We obviously didn't do anything wrong so it's clearly the anti genocide voters. I don't know why you have such a problem with me, I'm just agreeing with y'all!!
Secondly, by the sounds of it, you accepted that what was happening to the gazans. In order for the democrats to have a chance to win, it was necessary. So tell me why you have a problem with my wording?
Edit: and now if we’re looking for someone to blame… We obviously didn’t do anything wrong so it’s clearly the anti genocide voters. I don’t know why you have such a problem with me, I’m just agreeing with y’all!!
Because your wording is not only in bad faith, but you're twisting what we're saying to suit your own agenda
I don't know what you want from me, if the genocide was unnecessary then why did the dems allow it to happen? Like clearly it is necessary for our democracy?
Downvoted. This is how you get tankies in your movement. This is why they consistently show up to every fucking protest like they're welcome there. If we work with authoritarians to get rid of authoritarians, what's the point?
Huh, looks like this account got hijacked; it used to be a "tankie", then it went dark for a month and is now back doing literally nothing except ranting about tankies.
Exactly. The fallacy of this argument becomes perhaps more obvious to y'all left-leaning people when you consider that USA is an imperfect ally for a lot of the world right now.
Thats why tankies are quickly gaining control of every left movement.
A left movement sadly always either gets taken over by tankies and then no one wants to do anything with them, respectfully, or they get "tamed" and turn into "social democrats" like the german SPD that holds left values only in writing but not in action
Trust me i am not. I want to see nothing more than a world where capitalism is no more. Where anyone can do what they love to do without financial or social hurdles in their way.
Capitalism is the source of 90% of our worldly problems.
I hate it being put into the same pot as tankies. Why tankies are bad, i dont have to elaborate on, do i?
Buddy, if you not only think that "tankie" is a meaningful political label, but that they're a powerful faction in the West that is taking over movements, you are the most tamed, housebroken socdem in the world.
Why tankies are bad, i dont have to elaborate on, do i?
Of course you don't; "tankies" are bad for the same reason that "pinkos" and "commies" are bad, they are all synonyms, after all.
Ooooh i understand, to you anyone that calls for a violent revolution is a "tankie". And anyone that doesnt want a violent revolution is a "moderate social democrat". Did i get that right?
Then yes to you i am a social dem because i know that threw violence you only make yourself seem to be the enemy of peace, stability and democracy. Creating an easy enemy image to rally against. Thus creating a hard wall against anything that is pro workers. You know, litterly how the Red Scare.
But that isnt what a tankie is for me.
For me a tankie is someone appologetic to and or denial of the horrible attrocities, undemocratic and dictatorial ways, supression and crushing demonstrations with force, imperialism, denying of freedom in all ways, speech, publication, travel and more, enrichement of them and their ruling class buddys on the exploitation of the workers, not caring about the workers and their lifes, and more, by mao's and current china, north korea, vietnam, soviet union and its puppet states (poland, east germany, romania, hungary, czechia, slovakia, slovenia, bulgaria, albania), yugoslavia, cuba and others.
And yes i saw you are from .ml, meaning you probably fall under that label too.
But you know what is even worse than people like tankies?
People like you, discussing terminologie and hardening on political ideological labels and names rather than discussing and coming up with a long term solution to a problem.
Then yes to you i am a social dem because i know that threw violence you only make yourself seem to be the enemy of peace, stability and democracy.
Yes, that does indeed sound like a completely tamed social democratic perspective: a complete commitment to fanatical pacifism and a naive belief that capitalists won't oppose you if you can just prove how dang peaceful and docile you ar.
But that isnt what a tankie is for me. For me a tankie is [proceeds to describe every serious communist]
So literally anyone who is remotely sympathetic to any leftist project anywhere.
And yes i saw you are from .ml, meaning you probably fall under that label too.
Yup, and there it is: Tankie as a purely online insult used for people from the wrong website.
But you know what is even worse than people like tankies? People like you, discussing terminologie and hardening on political ideological labels and names rather than discussing and coming up with a long term solution to a problem.
Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were "discussing and coming up with a long term solution" when you were ranting about "tankies" having to much presence and calling for complete pacifism. Oh, and clearly you don't think 'tankies' are that bad if you think people who are sticklers for terminology are 'worse.'
For me a tankie is [proceeds to describe every serious communist]
Wtf? Are you an agitator or a poser or what? Did you even read what they said? This is what you call "describing every serious communist", emphasis mine
But that isnt what a tankie is for me.
For me a tankie is someone appologetic to and or denial of the horrible attrocities, undemocratic and dictatorial ways, supression and crushing demonstrations with force, imperialism, denying of freedom in all ways, speech, publication, travel and more, enrichement of them and their ruling class buddys on the exploitation of the workers, not caring about the workers and their lifes, and more, by mao's and current china, north korea, vietnam, soviet union and its puppet states (poland, east germany, romania, hungary, czechia, slovakia, slovenia, bulgaria, albania), yugoslavia, cuba and others.
What of the bolded portions are you claiming to be a part of communism?
Whoever coined the phrase "it's not my job to educate you" is top of my rogues gallery. If you want democracy to succeed, it is literally your job to educate everyone you can about the things you are passionate about and the changes you wish to see. I get where it came from, I understand the feeling, but it's the worst possible phrase in the context of trying to make a political change.
“It’s not my job to educate you” led to Prager University
If you don't, someone else will.
It really didn't. Maybe 10 people said it because they were being harassed by concern trolls, while the rest of us continued to engage in conversation with people who seemed like they might genuinely be confused.
Like literally just do a web search for your question and you will be on better footing when you ask it.
Like I felt offended the first time I heard "my culture is not a costume" but I actually did some reading / thinking before I started bothering people with questions like what??? or even banditos?? or what about mummies?
I feel like a lot of progressive vocabulary words get used outside the contexts where they apply.
"It's not my job to educate you" is a fair and valid thing to say when someone demands you defend the validity of your identity while you're just trying to live your life. It's unreasonable to expect every trans person to explain the history and complexity of gender to every chud who gives them shit.
It is, however, the opposite of activism and super unhelpful for an activist to say while ostensibly trying to build a movement.
Similarly, "mansplaining" is not a blanket term for any man explaining anything, listening to a friend vent is not "emotional labor", and participating in cultures other than the one you grew up in is not "cultural appropriation". All real terms that point at real problems, all sometimes used outside the contexts in which they are helpful.
Gaslighting is another often misused term. It's not just a blanket term for lying, it is a specific type of lie.
Sure, I personally don't use "academic" terms against other people. It does make the words lose meaning, which is why I use context and followup questions to really understand if the distinction is important.
I think it's ok to bemoan the semantic drift of useful terms, away from the people trying to simply communicate with me. (No point in chastising.)
I'm not sure where you are getting where I am "ripping apart someone adjacent to me."
Thanks for the clarification! Sorry, I misunderstood.
Yeah I mean I can understand not everyone wants to be an educator, especially of more ignorant people but when people say this I do wonder why they are even talking. I usually speak to people because I am interested in learning from them or because they’re interested in learning from me. This is the purpose of human communication. If you aren’t interested then the obvious solution is to stay silent.
Exactly. If you're not willing to try and educate someone you disagree with, insulting them is no substitute (in fact it's pretty much the worst course of action re the presumed desired result), just keep quiet, or alternatively go talk to others who already agree with you so you can stroke each other's egos, lol.
When out distributing political flyers people will often come up to me pretending to want a conversation and learn something about my/our points, but just talk over me all the time. Their purpose is not to listen, or to learn, or to question, but just to feel like they matter.
Had a guy recently tell me about how he is a mechanic and that he did his own study where he found out that combustion engines do not, in fact, let out any CO2. He started it all with "give me 3 reasons to vote for you" to put me on the spot, then immediately was like "ok, I have 3 not to do it."
There is no conversation with people like that, I've tried it often. Now I just wish them a nice day and go away as it's not my job to waste time trying go educate them talking against an idiot wall.
It's not exactly the sentiment I have a problem with. There are definitely people who aren't worth engaging with and there's a time to walk away, as someone else in this thread pointed out they do. Responding in a kind of snarky, condescending tone rather than just walking away does not help you.
Think about an online thread where this happens: Someone is making an argument, and a troll appears. They engage for a bit, but realize they aren't going to make any progress. Walking away let's the thread die, and people who stumble upon it in the future will likely recognize the troll for what they are and consider the argument. Responding with condescension instead makes the person appear to only be arguing for self-aggrandizement rather than to actually help or improve anything, and it can poison the argument they made before. It plays right into the troll's hands.
Wish we wouldnt use AI
yeah the identical styles get old real fast
Its also the weapon of the enemy.
"Hey look, it's Steve! ...oh wait."
Perfection is the enemy of progress. Way to derail <3
This is like talking about awareness and then driving away in a Tesla. The people who are feasting upon our institutions made AI. The same people we are protesting that infested this regime.
I was right to block your low info ass
It was a critique, not a tear down.
Yeah, this is silly. They literally just expressed that they wished AI wasn't used.
And look how much it has derailed the conversation.
Treating criticism like an attack is the enemy of progress, and ironically more perfectionist than being able to acknowledge flaws in your messaging too.
There are always the snobs that prefer nobody else be doing shit either so they can feel even more superior.
Where’s AI? Is the whole image AI or just the art?
The whole image.
You've improved my AI detection skills, thanks.
But you seem to be ignoring the message.
Perfection is the enemy of progress. Organize, don't just argue
and
Imperfect allies are not enemies.
I'm not. The message is good. But its spouted from atop the corrupted bloom of our stolen labor.
If you know the post is AI and you don’t delete the post, that is tacit endorsement of using AI as a propaganda tool. You seem unbothered by that.
I do ignore the message if the medium is artificial. I won’t bother to read the image’s text or attempt to process the intent if I know the delivery is not genuine. I’m not going to waste my time or sully my brain by valuing and evaluating something posing as human expression.
You want me on your team? Don’t send a robo singing telegram as a recruiting tool. Convey your message like we’re humans instead of speaking through a fundamentally false impersonator. I don’t ask you to be a perfect human — I ask that you and your messages are genuine if you want me to listen. Trickery isn’t used to gain allies; it’s used to exploit the unwitting.
That good ol' purity spiral.
A message isn't a genuine message, because the choice of instrument to prepare it is disliked. Even if the text is the same, it's the product of a "false impersonator" & "trickery".
Genetic fallacy & non sequitur.
Edit: specifically, style over substance.
The fallacy fallacy is thinking that just naming fallacies discredits an argument. Literally what you just did in your post.
Definition doesn't fit.
Here neither: merely pointing out your argument is invalid (which it is), is not an argument that your conclusion is false, which I simply didn't bother to claim.
Would bothering to claim & argue it's false (reusing your words) "waste my time" & "sully" my attention with an invalid argument? Reusing your language even more
While I don't completely agree with that argument, either (especially the first paragraph), insisting on reasoning/substance seems way more compelling than that original argument (rejecting a message over superficial considerations). You absolutely can, but reasons that it's right or logical are lacking or conflicted.
Rejecting a message is worthy of consideration over style is something an irrational person does. It's a classic fallacy.
Noted
Alright now get back to the drawing board, and don't come back until you have a meme you made in Krita
Nah, didn't you read?
Some royal majesties
and will not have their attention sullied with
Anything digital, electronic, or mechanical is artificial. They want "genuine" human expression, and the printing press is impersonal, mass-produced schlock.
Gotta go full quill & parchment on this, hand delivered.
It’s distasteful, but a useful weapon. We need ways to create content that is good enough and really fast to make. A grassroots movement doesn’t have the funds to pay marketing teams to do our work for us.
What did people do before AI? It wasn't that long ago.
AI is being used every social media site the world over to hamper discourse, embroil people, to enrage people...
I don't know of another way to combat it except with more AI. Maybe at some point people will completely get off of the internet with the thought "There's no real people on the internet any more".
You poison it and you dont use it. That'd how you fight AI. With tarpits and poison. They're like Mentats.
That doesn’t work, based on the results we’ve seen so far. All attempts to poison AI have quickly been bypassed.
Is there any source to this claim?
Sure, a quick google search turned up this, published just four days ago:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10962550
Or here’s a discussion on r*ddit about how Glaze is totally ineffective against poisoning image generation AIs. (Same principles apply to others like Nightshade)
https://www.reddit.com/r/aiwars/comments/12f9otc/so_the_whole_entire_glaze_ai_thing_does_it/
Basically every poisoning technique is by its very nature too specific to be useful for poisoning all the types of AI out there, or is too invasive and ruins the content for humans too, or is not strong enough and it gets lost in the cacaphony of data anyway.
Really it’s a clever idea in principle but in practice AI poisoning isn’t really a mathematically viable way to combat AI.
How naive
Ban AI where you can and talk about how bad it is when its relevant
They are never going to ban AI. It replaces too many workers. Hell, it's smarter than half the people I know -- even when it makes mistakes.
Who is "they"?
But i know AI wont be banned in most countries ever. The point is to try to make people avoid AI or avoid things that use AI
You can't avoid AI or things that use AI. We've been using these statistical models WELL before they became mainstream. And they mimic human authors well enough that it's impossible in many cases.
Its impossible in some cases, but possible in others
If people are openly using AI, others will be encouraged to do that to
Is this critiquing to build or tear down?
Critique. This wouldnt have been hard to make in a presentable way without AI. I get it, I'm just saying now is the time to burn all bridges. Change is coming either way.
I'm so fucking done with you people, every one of you is getting blocked from now on, no exceptions
Username checks out
Thank you for annotating the post. Bumping engagement with my comment.
Thank you!
OP, accessibility is important. Don't provide images of text when there's real text. If you insist on the image, then provide alt text. You only limit reach with just an image & mark your message as exclusionary, contrary to your goals.
I'd be more likely to listen if this weren't next to an AI Gen otter
Another sepia toned AI comic.
Yea I haven't even read the message, the second I saw the text wobble I came to the comments to see who else has already called it out.
"Critique to build, not tear down"
Quoting the person who is being critiqued isn't effective rhetoric... The whole point is that he isn't convincing because he's unable to not be a hypocrite for half a second. Pointing to his hypocrisy uncritically again doesn't do anything to excuse the issue. If you actually want to convince anyone to follow the advice above, you need to do more than exist vaguely nearby. So do better, because this was a pathetic attempt and should never be repeated.
How's that? Build you up enough?
Nothing you said is even vaguely related to what has been said in this thread. Where do you think you are right now?
I'm sorry you can't read, but it definitely has been said to you, multiple times. I'm just not babying you about it.
Let me check the comment chain again:
-comment whining about AI
-comment whining about AI
-your deranged rant that is unrelated to anything that has been said before
Nope. Don't know where you think you are or who you think you're talking to but you seem to be lost.
Lol. Do you call everything you can't read deranged? Because the hungry hungry caterpillar also makes sense to the literate among us.
I'm talking to cilethesane about how they're uncritically quoting nonsense without adding anything to the discussion as though it furthers any point and I'm in this thread. You know where you are too, but you definitely are lost my dude
yeah, it just cheapens the message heavily
"Perfection is the enemy of progress"
"Division is a weapon used by elites"
uses currently divisive technology popularly known to be made by elites
I hope this unnecessary choice doesn't cheapen my message or bother people I'm trying to meet where they are.
This is fucking "genocide Joe" all over again, just much more stupid because literally no one has been harmed by the creation and posting of this image.
Has OP stolen a job from some other artist by posting their meme? Maybe they should have commissioned it?
I get it, trying the force AI into everything as an excuse to not hire people is dumb as fuck, but this post is not doing that. People using it to make shit posts and memes is fine.
Why do you ignore the steps required to get here? The model doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor did it automagically will itself into existence.
By the creation and posting, no one has been harmed, but the model's development sits atop the stolen works of artists worldwide. Now these companies are trying to obviate artists. Harm was a prerequisite for this image's creation.
You're just ignoring the steps required to get to this "harmless" phase. It's like saying "ffs, why do you want people to stop buying Nestlé where possible? Is wanting cookies evil now?"
Genuinely, why does none of this matter to you?
I'm not mad that AI exists, nor that people want to use it—so do I. But I can't just ignore how they were made, or what the normalization of GenAI usage legitimizes.
Please don't make comparisons to genocide joe. This isn't the same (I can go into this if needed, but I hope you see why), and I'm not even from the US.
Did OP build and train the models? This makes as much sense as blaming OP for using the Internet to spread their message, because the "steps required" to get to the Internet include massive contributions to global warming, abusing and stealing the labour of the working class, and the genocide of indigenous populations. Why does none of this matter to you?
If OP is paying for access to the AI generation then they should not do that and provide them with profit. There are plenty of methods to get it for free so there is no reason to assume OP paid for it.
Of course it isn't. Israel's genocide is a real issue that people actively made worse because having Palestinians die is easier than making the mental effort of thinking through the consequences of their actions (or inaction), and considering that sometimes all you can do is prevent something from getting worse.
This is just people refusing to engage with helpful messaging intended to help organize group solidarity because of a knee-jerk reaction, instead of considering if this image actually contributed to the harm AI causes in any way.
Both are people being intellectually lazy and pretending they are morally superior.
Get over yourselves, AI art is not going away any time soon
It's not art
You don't understand what the word 'art' means then
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
HUMAN creative skill. AI is not human, has no creativity, no skill. It is not art.
It signifies to me that the post is low-effort garbage or worse. That's not a good thing if you want the message to stick.
However, you have to be careful that your movement doesn't get infiltrated, because that will hurt your movement. You have to be careful who you are walking with, and what their end goals are.
Don't protest for a better health care system with people that are antiscientific. Don't protest for a free Palestine together with antisemitic people. Do not let them blur your message.
One thing I've been grappling with is I would completely support a violent overthrow of the Trump admin, as I don't consider him legitimate because of the insurrection clause, but I would never ever even discuss the subject with a bunch of tankies or anarchists because they're just supporting destruction of our protected rights all the same as the enemy.
I really wish my fellow "progressives" would get it through their heads how deeply true it is that perfection is the enemy of progress. It's supremely ironic that so many people who say they value freedom and individuality are so ABSOLUTELY intolerant of any slight deviations from what they see as moral perfection and adherence to doctrines. It's like you're either a hundred percent right or ten thousand percent wrong, and even suggesting there can be an in-between is being "complicit". Lighten the fuck up or we'll never get anywhere.
The incessant purity testing is completely exhausting and aggravatingly frustrating.
That sounds like something an enemy would say, right before they disagree with my objectively correct opinion about some minor thing and reveal their true nature.
I feel personally attacked by your vague statement and therefore see you as an enemy for life
the importance of that relatively minor thing also matters though, we can't just purity test everybody for everything, even if it's objectively correct, not all of it matters.
I would rather lose all my rights than stand beside ten thousand men who think neopronouns are cringe.
It would be impossible to achieve real change without your rigidity. Thank you.
Thank you more, for recognizing that sacrificing principles is bad and unnecessary, and victory is optional.
I hope we can also agree that anyone who unironically watches South Park are problematic and must be actively shunned if discovered.
And atheists who won't suspend their theophobia for Islam are even worse.
I just felt like those groups needed to be mentioned for no particular reason.
true i hate winning, i hope we keep losing so we can keep up the facade of pretending to be good instead of actually doing something to solve the problem, because we would probably fuck up.
I personally deeply desire to be a noble loser and a perfect victim.
To die ethically unassailable, with no questionable acquaintances and no discord with progressive consensus, that is the goal we should all strive for.
Our flesh may be weak and vulnerable, but at least my spirit is secularily sainty, perfect, untarnished by compromise and realpolitik.
I. Am. Unproblematic.
This is 100% something a few people here on Lemmy need to see.
Which is fortunate since there are so few people on lemmy
Its something people should have seen and accepted on or before November 5th.
Now I kind of just want to see the anti-electoralists suffer. Even if it means I suffer.
This for everytime some one suggests an idea. It's not your job to snipe it because it's too lofty an idea. If it's a good idea, help hold it up.
And little victories. Healing by ten thousand stitches.
that's great, but does it actually accomplish anything? That's what really matters, it doesn't matter if you run some weirdo out of town because he moderately disagrees with you, if he just goes to the next town over, where more people are waiting for him...
Well sure, but that does pretty much rehash the comment you responded to.
Leftists ? You mean Liberals, they're the ones who are behaving like rabid dogs.
Huh!? I dont pay attention to US news and i am already out of the loop!? Comon maaaan!
People on lemmy retort stuff like this with "If you talk to a nazi, you ARE a nazi".
Meanwhile it's just some dude who likes sourdough.
Honestly we have more in common than we think - on the left we just happen to "eat our own" so to speak.
Nah dude, if you tolerate fascists in any space, they use that space to recruit and try to transform the space for their needs. I've heard this from renfaire folks, who had to drive the fascists out of the space to keep it sane. I've heard about this happening in work places too. You gotta organize with non-fascists and drive the fascists out of the space by being vocally and actively supportive of groups they despise.
I agree with this. If you've ever worked with someone that was awesome to work with and the whole space was left empty when they moved to another company, than you've experienced the opposite of a nazi. One toxic, shitty dude can make the whole place go down the toilet. It really only takes one to change a place.
Want to know what the single biggest recruiting tool Nazis use, that nobody seems to ever talk about? Prison.
I've seen normal, non-bigoted people end up getting busted for a minor drug charge or something stupid, then they go to prison, get their heads filled with racist crap, and then come out sieg-heiling Nazis.
Prison is basically a Nazi-making factory at this point, so why does nobody ever talk about this?
And it gets complicated, because bad actors use this to make spaces for cult behaviour.
Not just nazi specifically, but if you have spammers/bots you can effectively destroy any moderately nuanced progressive space by adding intentional offensive voices in the group, and at reactive voices outside the group calling the original members x/y and pointing at the bots in the group as evidence. Progressive voices will leave to avoid the association, while actual bigots will hear that it is another space for them. By the end, it's like it was always a bigot space, and the original points and nuance never existed.
Beware divisive propaganda, but also don't accept actual intentional bigots to invade a space. If they proudly wear their bigotry, let them know it's not socially tolerated. They are a cancer if enabled.
If someone says they interact with a space to try and stop it from turning into a bigot space, maybe that's not actually your enemy.
Been fighting cult building propaganda for two decades and now I'm just yelling that the emperor has no clothes. It makes me happy to see people at least engaging with the topic, without calling me a nazi for trying to stop the spread of Nazis.
Also casual reminder that black Americans are Russia's biggest target. Self segregation is what they want, don't fall for divisive rhetoric. Be wary of real bigots, especially socially empowered ones. find people you can trust, and find solidarity. Don't feed the division between those who want to cooperate. Education, exposure, and communication are paramount.
True. In addition to that it's close to far-right rhetoric. I'm not saying whether it's correct or wrong... But they sure like to play victim and say people will label them a nazi if they talk about subjects or to certain people. And they're being wronged.
Did we already forget the almost overnight shift in what was seen as acceptable discourse once Trump won in 2016? All these intolerant and hateful assholes crawled out and felt emboldened to chirp christofascist/racist/delusional conspiracies in public and online spaces. And that zeitgeist shift pulled the Overton Window sharply to the right, paving the road for our current situation.
If someone’s basic political ideology is “government should industrialize state murder of X group/s” they are not someone I can make common cause or find sympathetic arguments with, or not without a lot of cult de-programming first.
There is no 'deprogramming', the few ex-maga you see are mostly social media grifters. Even those disgusted by Drumpf's antics aren't any less cuntservative and will gladly vote for cheetolini's hand-picked successor
There's a reason that warlords used to put every man, woman, and child to the sword after a defeat
Okay but if your options are more murder and less murder then you shouldn't feel good about refusing to participate.
looks around the thread
I don't know why you felt the need to make a message like this, OP. We're all fully united and never quibble over inconsequential shit.
In this essay, I will outline how your post actually SUPPORTS the patriarchy…
FOUND THE NAZI
Sarcasm is so '10s
Like the Muslim voters in Michigan that voted for Trump because they didn't like Harris' support of Israel and then immediately had ICE breathing down their necks
This is true, but it's a good reminder that most people don't act like this meme. We should remember that minorities don't owe us their vote, and we should stand up for them
As a transwoman I'm suddenly used to abuse from false allies who see me as an "Guaranteed Vote"
They're not wrong, but only because it's a two-party system and a true enemy is worse than a false friend.
Yes, this is the attitude they are referring to.
Right? Like, if someone's promising Free Grog and Good Times, they're probably LeChuck in disguise.
Yes, I made an Escape From Monkey Island reference.
First time I played that game, I felt stupid for not realizing the guy named "Charles L. Charles" with the same voice actor as LeChuck, was in fact, LeChuck.
Maaaan now i got spoilered for a game that came out many many many years ago! Thaaanks!!! Angry emoji, angry emoji
Especially since the joke behind the Charles L Charles character is how easy it's supposed to be to see the twist coming, and my autistic ass just took the character at face value.
Tbh i might have been the same, my fellow 'tism friend.
I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm glad that you are here and having a good time.
Wow! This is the second best Monkey Island reference I've ever seen!
Exactly. If you don't want to be deported, you're going to have to be okay with genociding some folks.
Or they could have voted for Harris and not had to deal with mass deportations and then tried to stop the genocidal acts. Instead they voted to continue the genocidal acts AND get deported. If the problem persists either way, why vote to fuck yourself twice?
LGBT folks got their ears on? Listening?
I've never felt friendlier, closer to a group of people and felt so much "fuck you die in a fire not enough!"
I will never stand against you, but it sure as fuck is hard being a friend.
(IRL, no problem. But online? Jesus fucking Christ what purity testing assholes.)
Left wing groups in general tend to do a lot of purity testing online , offline is a whole different story... as a queer person it buggs me tf out of my mind that people do that
I have no idea what this is targeting... I've never encountered anything like what you're describing. What exactly are you conveying that is earning you criticism from the LGBTQ community?
I'm not shalafi but for example Blahaj and 196 is notoriously trigger happy with bans. I got permanently banned from like 5 communities all at once there for having one very tame civil discussion about where the overlap between gay and trans begins and ends. They're also the most well known instance for defederations.
Oh I think I read something about
…without offering an opinion…
them creating a space for enthusiastic agreement only since they have plenty of enthusiastic disagreement elsewhere
Yeah that's fine but as a result they're self segregating and showing hostility to their allies. It's a mixed bag, so to speak.
Perfect is a pretty evil enemy of good… and we think we’re doing the right thing by being sticklers
If I had a nickel for every time one person got mad at another for not being as far left as them by a difference of a single millimeter, I’m sure I’d have like a buck over the past couple years.
Those are probably straight people trying to convince everyone else of how much they believe in the cause
sadly not. I know some people personally that are this way
Dear 50501 folks,
Every so often I check my messages at Facebook and noted there’s a big 50501 group there… any chance you could get that group to start educating their Facebook members that supporting Facebook means supporting the coup and fascism?
Just a thought, Wwe
I get what you're saying, but if we sequester ourselves to niche spaces, how can we spread information? Isn't it important to reach Facebook users?
What you do is underground railroad them out of Facebook.
Dear Captain My Captain,
Here is a link to a document I’m working on that hopes to do just that. Please let me know what you think:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10KqzL0M2QzUTCdTFzcA1sRkfbNdCoaL7Xn4n4ilpwi8/edit?usp=drivesdk
And it’s not just the Cap’n I hope to get comments from. Please dive in.
Using Facebook to attract disgruntled hostiles who are potentially ripe for recruitment, or those who are politically agnostic and getting angry at what is happening to them, and poisoning one of their primary propganda mouthpieces, are all important missions.
Breaking through to them is something I have tried to do for years. I’ve stumbled up on this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10KqzL0M2QzUTCdTFzcA1sRkfbNdCoaL7Xn4n4ilpwi8/edit?usp=drivesdk
Comments if you have them.
How about don't ask the opposition to host it and instantly doxx every person who touches that link? Just a thought. No fucking clue what is actually on the other side of that blue text and I'm not going to check
You're literally just making a list for them
Slow down. We are on the same side.
My thought here is that corporate owned social media needs to be destroyed and the best way to do that is to make it irrelevant — the way folks already in the Fediverse find it.
The way to make it irrelevant is to make it a ghost town.
Dreaming big, I wrote something for… Facebook idiots that might… just might… be persuaded to try something new. It’s just a doc. I can paste in the text? I guess I’m not tracking what you are concerned about?
Seriously… link to FOSS app plz
I’m so new to the Fediverse myself, I don’t know about the closest thing there is to google docs? Educate me. I’ll pop the doc on that and then delete this link.
The coup? Who is overthrowing what exactly? I seriously just dont understand these things. I can't imagine it's very legit if there hasn't been a call to arms. That's why we bear arms, right? For perhaps an attempted coup.
Please read this:
https://allr.cat/a-strange-stain-in-the-sky/
WhY Do YoU SuPpOrT GeNoCiDe?
It's an unfortunate but necessary genocide
Edit: I don't support it!! But at this point it's pretty clear it's necessary, no? As liberals we need to be honest with ourselves at least.
i guess you need to spell out for me exactly how wiping out an entire culture of innocent human beings in cold blood is "necessary"
idk if you're just trolling for attention but saying shit like that and calling it "unfortunate"... dude wtf
I'll bite. What do we as liberals get out of this genocide? Are you gonna say our stock in Lockheed will go up? Because not all of us liberals have stock in Lockheed.
Well the democrats were very clearly pro genocide so idk why you would think it's not part of the liberal platform???? Don't the democrats represent us?
Everyone see what this person is doing? Thats the point of the original post.
I'm trying to figure out whether it's an LLM or not. I'm always interested to see how far they've advanced.
I tried this trick on Substack once a the account was deleted soon after. I'll test it out here
Idgi, if that's the case then why is one of the top comments an unprompted criticism of antigenocide protesters? That's not divisive?
For this among a dozen other excellent reason, including and especially being generally incompetent at achieving their stated goals, Democrats do not represent me.
We all can learn a little, from a little machine learning. In this essay I will...
This comment was reported. It does not violate our rules. Downvotes are appropriate here, convincing arguments even more so. Carry on.
Also, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Never forget that even though we knew that Stalin was a vicious mass murderer of his own people, we allied with him to defeat Hitler, and it is highly unlikely that we could have done it without out them, or at least it would have taken us far longer, and cost many more lives.
We turned on each other the moment the war was over, but at least we could agree to put aside our differences for the time being.
It is likely that when it comes time to finally put down the rabid dog named MAGA once and for all, it is going to require allying with the Traditional GOP. I despise them with everything I have, and will want accountability when this is over, but if they are willing to assist us in purging MAGA from society, we are going to have to hold our noses and accept their help.
Kamala tried that, it lead to Leftists not voting for Kamala Harris because they no longer saw a difference between her and Trump, and Rightists didn't vote for Kamala Harris because even the "Never-Trumper" faction of the party gets in line behind whoever the GOP tells them to. Because Republicans have something Democrats will never have, unquestionable brand loyalty.
MAGA will be not be defeated by cooperating with Conservatives who fear that they "Must defeat Trump to save the party", this is because Conservatives do not have an ideology, they have a tribe, and their tribe must always win or their Gods will hold them accountable.
If Conservatives turn against MAGA, it will be because they've been directly targeted by MAGA and are looking for a way out, and by the time that happens it'll already be too late. "No one left to speak for me" as the poem goes.
That said, the Right Wing portion of the Supreme Court is turning against Trump for this exact reason, they realize that if they don't he will just get rid of the Supreme Court and rule directly.
If "The TRUE Republicans" wanted to work with us to destroy Trumpism, I'd gladly accept their help, but they will NEVER work against the tribe.
There is no substantive difference between "MAGA" and the traditional GOP.
LMAO the "traditional GOP" was killed by MAGA.
More like MAGA is the traditional GOP dropping the mask
Naah, I like my version better. More accurate.
Nah, your version implies that there was ever a traditional GOP that was meaningfully different from MAGA
No, my version is simply the correct one.
Then again, you sound like a tankie so you'd probably favor a Stalin-esque communist-style rule where the government disappears people on a whim like they had in the Soviet Union.
With that in mind, I'm surprised you don't agree with Trump's policy of sending dissidents to El Salvadorian gulags. Tankies love making dissidents disappear, after all.
Liberals not descend into lazy insults and strawmen challenge (impossible).
Good to know the definition of tankie has continued to expand that it now includes "people to the left of George Bush"
Personally, I think Free America and the Allies would be teaming up with the Mexican Cartels. If anyone can terrorize the Trump Regime, it would be them. IMO, it wouldn't be surprising if Mexico and the Allies promise to give away Texas to the Cartels as a spoil of war.
teaming with what might as well be classified as terrorists, and literal drug trafficking cartels is kind of insane not gonna lie.
Agreed. Unfortunately, we live in a world where Project 2025 is being supported by the 1%.
yeah, there is also that.
ITT: A demonstration of the precise behavior OP is trying to warn against.
yeah. There's a difference between (for example) a transphobe screaming at you, and someone who doesn't fully understand all the terms but supports you being yourself. People in the comments are thinking it's more of the former than the ladder.
"I can't vote for Harris! She was endorsed by Dick Cheney!"
By that logic, none of the people threatened by the Nazis should have accepted help from Imperialist England and racist USA.
Protest voters did not meaningfully impact the election.
Those people will not participate unless it's required by law.
Expect at least 1 thrid of the population to never vote otherwise.
Cool they will never participate so focus on the ones who will
People didn't vote for Harris because she was a colored woman, that's what voting patterns show
They just said it was because of Dick Cheney or Palestine
Reminds me of this story.
In 1980 they took a poll of people who had been eligible to vote in the 1960 election between John Kennedy and Richard Nixon. One of the questions they asked was 'who did you vote for in 1960?' In real life, the election was 51-49% a real squeaker. However, according to the poll, it was a 90-10% blow out for JFK.
Less 2-dimensional and self-gratifying than you endlessly posting your Qanon-style conspiracy theory about how all of America's problems are actually due to the perfidious machinations of conniving foreigners.
Nah if you refuse to look at voting data because it goes against your narrative you can fuck right off.
The real numbers show white men/women, and hispanic men stayed home for Kamala when previously they voted for Biden.
And that's a difference of almost 13 million votes which would have made them win in 2024.
Those groups could vote for the white man but not the colored woman with the same policies.
I'm blocking you now because reality is not subjective.
Voting for a genocidal nazi to prevent another genocidal nazi is not how you stop genocidal nazis. This poster is not about electoralism, but addressing its inherent failure in any state wherein the discussion on genocide is not whether or not to do it, but to whom.
Congratulations.
You made the Gaza genocide worse, enabled Israel to attack more countries, screwed the people of Ukraine, and got mass deportations and attacks on transpeople in the USA.
Keep telling me what a great job you did.
Adults realize that sometimes there are no good choices, on bad ones and terrible ones.
Protest voters did not meaningfully impact the election.
Congratz on getting tricked into despising poor college students like your boomer parents.
No, you people and the fascist slogan of 'vote blue no matter who,' did quite literally all of that. Liberals have been the only people in history to willingly embrace fascism, and you've done it again. Each time so far by voting for the lesser evil by your fucked up definition until it just happens. All because you're scared of classless societies.
Liberals appointed Hitler to stop them evil commies, liberals chose to get trump elected to stop them evil democratic socialists.
I'm pretty sure next time you'll elect super Hitler to stop them evil neoliberals that are just too left wing for you all.
This is pretty fucking stupid.
"Vote for Neoliberal fascism or you're getting conservative fascism" is a stupid Duopoly to accept you're right.
So, you take no blame for an election that happened last year, but blame me for an election that happened long before I was born?
Okay, you win.
You picked your ideology willingly, despite knowing what it always leads to. You get no sympathy or assumption of good faith from me.
And no, I don't take any blame for voting against genocide while protesting in the street against the uniparty. You voted for genocide.
I'm shocked by that. Absolutely stunned.
I've seen the bodies resulting from what makes you cheer, your boos mean nothing to me.
No. The genocide was just as bad under the Democrats, you were just a genocide denier when it was your team doing it. In that sense, Trump has actually been better for Gaza, because at least liberals like you will actually acknowledge what's happening there under him, rather than downplaying and denying it.
Any chance having source of this ? Thanks <3
It’s an AI slop hallucination. The source is thousands of hours of stolen labor.
More fiber? What kind of movements are we talking about?
Neoliberals will not allow meaningful change to happen
look man, you and i both hate the current trump admin ok, let's start there, and work on what we agree upon, and then we diverge when we get past that point.
Here's the deal this election.
The leftists control the new leadership and the Neoliberals get in line to support us.
The Neoliberals have had too much of a say and 50 years of them in control of the Democratic party have turned it soft and corporatist. Meeting in the middle with fascists has only brought us closer to fascism.
You can get with the movement or get out of the way.
look bro, if you can get a lefty in, AOC whoever, doesn't matter as long as they have a base line of intelligence high enough to unfuck the trump admin, and you get them backed by the party, by all means i will vote for them.
i'll stay out of the way if you want me to, but don't come crying to me when you lose over it.
The Democratic party, which is a private organization and has been controlled by Neoliberals for 50 years, will never support a canidate that will force the rich to make concessions.
Which is why if Bernie and AOC tell us to vote for the Neoliberals again we have to choose someone else.
well then you've got a really tough position to start from already. Unless you have a solution to this, i'm not sure what you want me to do about it.
You might be able to start another party and propose a competing candidate i suppose. But historically they've never been very popular.
Yeah a lot of money has been spent fucking the system like this.
Gee I wonder why 🙄 it's almost as if there have been hundreds of years+ of empires with a problem with any kind of actually solution focused party
^ Oh, they will definitely blame you when they lose over it.
Right? I hate Neo Liberals to, but the thing is, we don't have the luxury of combatting Status Quo, we are in the unenviable position of trying to hold onto the corrupt status quo because the alternative is demonstrably and unspeakably worse.
The corrupt status quo is how you got to this situation, trying to hold onto it just make the "unspeakably worse" alternative inevitable.
10 lessons for stronger Christians
Even works
Ok, but why an otter?
They’re fuckin rad.
Right? Why NOT an otter?
Wilco
Smart.
Smart smart smart.
I keep hearing people say this meaning "We need to let Republicans kill trans people". It seems to be a thought terminating cliche to pull out against anyone further left than the speaker.
As a trans person, that absolutely isn't how I or other leftists in the spaces I'm in use this phrase. It means to avoid letting disagreement over method or end goal distract from a common cause. Just because a candidate doesn't run for my specific brand of leftism doesn't mean I won't support them over a neoliberal opponent.
I am unsure whether this is AI generated or not. Checking the crosspost to ![email protected] confirmed that other people also thought this may be AI generated.
Does this mean that power has to be handled with care because it threatens feelings
or
does it mean that it's ok to ignore feelings when it is possible to increase power?
AI cancer
Also Neoliberals are controlled opposition who have been shrugging their shoulders for 50 years, they are complicit or impotent.
The more i read "neoliberal" in political movement discussions, the more i get the feeling its the new "slap this label on anything you dont fully agree with to disqualify them imedietly"-label
Did you just "everyone I don't like is a nazi" me?
Words have meaning dummy
Neoliberals differ from leftists because Neoliberalism depends on maintaining the status quo and appealing to Capital, which is not helpful when we need to redistribute wealth.
I didnt. Nore was it my intend.
I mearly stated that i am observing people throwing this word around, slapping it on anyone they disagree with.
More ofc in online "discussions" than in irl.
I know they differ. I get called neo liberal for saying a violent uprising isnt the way to archive socialism and the soviet union as well as china, Laos and vietnam were/are evil countrys that did evil things and perverted what socialism is about
Ok keep denying what you can look an inch upward and see you wrote.
Blocked
you got'er otter
Sadly, I keep trying to explain this to tankies, but they insisted NOT voting for Kamala because she wasn't going to use the Dragon Balls to bring back every Palestinian killed by Israel was a power move...
Anyway, that's how Donald Trump got re-elected
Amazing that you think this post is promoting punching leftwards in support of electionism
You're right. We liberals saw that Kamala and Biden did only the bare minimum genocide necessary. It's better than the extreme amounts of genocide trump is doing. Tankies often miss this point.
sighs
The point isn't that there's a magical "Correct Amount" of genocide that is acceptable.
The point is that there is no magical solution that saves Palestine, there was however an option that made an already horrible scenario even worse, and that's the option we took in large part thanks to people who thought not voting would be good for anyone's health.
Kamala may not have cared about the lives she was helping snuff out under Biden's watchful eye, but at least she wasn't outright planning to build a fucking resort atop the mass graves. (Trump Gaza ring any bells to you?)
By the way, I'm a transwoman, I'm seeing ciswomen get awarded for "Standing up" against my kind, as my existence is being publically reframed as an affront to women's rights in what I can only imagine is the greatest dream TERF-kind ever had.
This wouldn't be happening under Kamala.
There are already states planning to illegalize "Gender Identity Fraud" in attempt to CRIMINALIZE MY VERY EXISTENCE
But there is an amount you were able to accept, an acceptable amount, if you will.
No. The genocide was just as bad under Democrats, you were just a genocide denier when it was your team doing it. In that sense, it's better that Trump won, because at least liberals acknowledge what's happening when he does it, rather than downplaying and denying it.
And that's a real killer for the "lesser evil argument": that the people making it seem to lose the ability to appraise their evil correctly.
Jesus Christ. You people really do only care about appearances and don't give a shit about human life. She also planned on exterminateing the Palestinians and building on the mass graves, but because it would just be fascist settlements and not something garish like a resort, that's fine?
Again, the lesser evil argument falls flat when everyone espousing it loses their ability to identify what evil is.
And there is: it's all fine so long as you personally aren't on the receiving end of the genocide.
When the Democratic party decides that Trans people are a necessary sacrifice and joins the Republicans in calling for their repression, are you still going to be demanding everyone votes for them?
First of all, the democrats were in charge when most of the genociding was happening. They let it get this bad in the first place, don't play it off like it was just some pre existing scenario that was handed to us.
Secondly, by the sounds of it, you accepted that what was happening to the gazans. In order for the democrats to have a chance to win, it was necessary. So tell me why you have a problem with my wording?
Edit: and now if we're looking for someone to blame.. We obviously didn't do anything wrong so it's clearly the anti genocide voters. I don't know why you have such a problem with me, I'm just agreeing with y'all!!
Because your wording is not only in bad faith, but you're twisting what we're saying to suit your own agenda
How so?
Yep, it's sad, but the
JewsPalestinians have to be eliminated for the good of theReichRepublic."We liberals".
Yeah right. Troll harder.
Nothing says "I'm not part of this group" quite like "We [group]s"
I don't know what you want from me, if the genocide was unnecessary then why did the dems allow it to happen? Like clearly it is necessary for our democracy?
Why did they choose a Rape Weasel as their mascot? Besides the adorableness of course.
"Imperfect Aliens" ok so only a "little" veiled racism is okay? Like in the good old days I guess.
Allies = Aliens???
I'd read again just to double check.
🤦
Downvoted. This is how you get tankies in your movement. This is why they consistently show up to every fucking protest like they're welcome there. If we work with authoritarians to get rid of authoritarians, what's the point?
Huh, looks like this account got hijacked; it used to be a "tankie", then it went dark for a month and is now back doing literally nothing except ranting about tankies.
Exactly. The fallacy of this argument becomes perhaps more obvious to y'all left-leaning people when you consider that USA is an imperfect ally for a lot of the world right now.
Thats why tankies are quickly gaining control of every left movement. A left movement sadly always either gets taken over by tankies and then no one wants to do anything with them, respectfully, or they get "tamed" and turn into "social democrats" like the german SPD that holds left values only in writing but not in action
If you're going around complaining about "tankies taking over movements", then you already ARE one of those tamed social democrats
Trust me i am not. I want to see nothing more than a world where capitalism is no more. Where anyone can do what they love to do without financial or social hurdles in their way. Capitalism is the source of 90% of our worldly problems.
I hate it being put into the same pot as tankies. Why tankies are bad, i dont have to elaborate on, do i?
Buddy, if you not only think that "tankie" is a meaningful political label, but that they're a powerful faction in the West that is taking over movements, you are the most tamed, housebroken socdem in the world.
Of course you don't; "tankies" are bad for the same reason that "pinkos" and "commies" are bad, they are all synonyms, after all.
Ooooh i understand, to you anyone that calls for a violent revolution is a "tankie". And anyone that doesnt want a violent revolution is a "moderate social democrat". Did i get that right?
Then yes to you i am a social dem because i know that threw violence you only make yourself seem to be the enemy of peace, stability and democracy. Creating an easy enemy image to rally against. Thus creating a hard wall against anything that is pro workers. You know, litterly how the Red Scare.
But that isnt what a tankie is for me. For me a tankie is someone appologetic to and or denial of the horrible attrocities, undemocratic and dictatorial ways, supression and crushing demonstrations with force, imperialism, denying of freedom in all ways, speech, publication, travel and more, enrichement of them and their ruling class buddys on the exploitation of the workers, not caring about the workers and their lifes, and more, by mao's and current china, north korea, vietnam, soviet union and its puppet states (poland, east germany, romania, hungary, czechia, slovakia, slovenia, bulgaria, albania), yugoslavia, cuba and others.
And yes i saw you are from .ml, meaning you probably fall under that label too.
But you know what is even worse than people like tankies? People like you, discussing terminologie and hardening on political ideological labels and names rather than discussing and coming up with a long term solution to a problem.
No, you didn't get that right.
Yes, that does indeed sound like a completely tamed social democratic perspective: a complete commitment to fanatical pacifism and a naive belief that capitalists won't oppose you if you can just prove how dang peaceful and docile you ar.
So literally anyone who is remotely sympathetic to any leftist project anywhere.
Yup, and there it is: Tankie as a purely online insult used for people from the wrong website.
Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were "discussing and coming up with a long term solution" when you were ranting about "tankies" having to much presence and calling for complete pacifism. Oh, and clearly you don't think 'tankies' are that bad if you think people who are sticklers for terminology are 'worse.'
Wtf? Are you an agitator or a poser or what? Did you even read what they said? This is what you call "describing every serious communist", emphasis mine
What of the bolded portions are you claiming to be a part of communism?
Yes, yes, I'm sure Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and all of your favorite dictators agree that tankies are wonderful people.
Liberals not descend into lazy strawmen challenge (impossible)
Again, not a liberal you godless pinko commie.