Chief of Dutch Central Bank: US influence on payment systems is concerning, working on alternatives for Visa and Mastercard.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2560460-dnb-maakt-zich-zorgen-over-amerikaanse-invloed-op-pinbetalingenOpen linkView original on lemmy.ca841
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If anything, I'm really glad how Europe has stepped up and started cooperating more as a consequence of US actions these past few months.
The Chinese jokingly call Trump "Comrade Jianguo", because of how his trade war has made China become more independent and stopped relying as much on American companies.
In the same way Trump's latest tantrum seems to be good for the Europe.
That's the Trump bump! And it's only been eight weeks.
Or is it hump 🤔?
Soon to be the Trump depression, but probably only for America.
If it is, it will be crippling. There's enough misery on that country as it is; I don't want to see people suffer even more. But then again, maybe a systemic shock rattles the building enough.
The world economics is more interconnected that ever. Remember the crash in 1929 and what happened in the rest of the world. It's not going to be just America.
Housing market crash of 2008 anyone?
Look into Wero. Only a couple countries and people to people payments for now, but should take off quickly as a universal Euro payement method
It's about time.
Please expand it to Canada too. We need a real alternative to Visa, Mastercard, American Express and Discover.
Canada shares a land border with Denmark and a maritime border with France.
I think that is sufficient to include them in any extended EU schemes.
(To the degree that they want it, of course)
France shares a land border with Brazil, we should get them into the EU as well.
I can support this.
Brazil and Suriname back into the European world.
🇧🇷🇸🇷
Oof, yeah, sounds bad when you phrase it like that.
🤔
🤔
Brave men & women fought over Hans Island in the Whisky War, and the resulting land border is a testament to their bravery, livers, and the determination to find a longlasting solution to land disputes!
Isn't that about that disput where everynow and then a group of military from each country would go up a hill, plant a flag and leave a bottle of booze, just for the other country to take it down and swap the bottle?
If so, I've seen less convoluted ways to make friends.
Yes. It was solved in 2022 by dividing the island by a natural rift. However it was also decided that anyone who come to the island can travel the entire island without border control.
Finally! Crazy bickering.
👏
Hans Island in the Arctic for Denmark and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, which is a small island off the eats coast of Canada, which remains a part of France.
We also administer Vimy Ridge in France. While it isn't Canadian territory, we have been granted permanent usage of it. It's a little bit like a land border. :)
Canada has interac for debit no? Could that same system be used for credit transactions?
Too bad about crypto.
This is the exact kind of situation it was meant to deal with: finance independent of bad entities. But it’s such a dumpster fire…
I don’t think there’s a purer example of social media engagement hype, predatory capitalism, and disinformation ruining something neat so quick.
There is GNU Taler which is quite cool, but thats not really ready for use yet sadly.
Oh yeah, that seems really cool. The core premise is much more practical.
Yeah, money that expires is very practical
Their very own FAQ says:
How to avoid digital cash expiration?
Taler e-money is issued with a validity period. One month before the expiration date, your wallet should automatically exchange any digital cash that is about to expire for new digital cash with an extended validity period. However, if your wallet is offline for an extended period of time, it may be unable to do so. Ensure your wallet is regularly online to avoid losing money due to expiration!
People get sick, people get jailed, all kinds of events happen that can incapacicate you for extended periods of time
Their very own FAQ says:
How to avoid digital cash expiration?
Taler e-money is issued with a validity period. One month before the expiration date, your wallet should automatically exchange any digital cash that is about to expire for new digital cash with an extended validity period. However, if your wallet is offline for an extended period of time, it may be unable to do so. Ensure your wallet is regularly online to avoid losing money due to expiration!
I mean, it still works for getting around Visa and Mastercard. For instance it can be used to make donations to various media piracy groups. It's just that it's so useful to scammers and many people see the technology as a whole as being one 'brand'.
It’s more than a perception problem now, it’s a culture one within the crypto community (as far as I can tell).
Even if you treat the most prominent crypto as a utility, the sea of hype and speculation will affect you.
Maybe. I feel a bit out of the loop on "crypto community culture" because I understand that much of it largely exists on Twitter nowadays, and I don't go there. Still, it is a functional solution for a money equivalent of encrypted communication.
Or Discord! And investment TV! It’s so cultish, it’s unreal.
I think this should be distinguished between "pure" crypto enthusiasts, in it for the utility, not speculation, which are probably like pink elephants now.
AI has a similar divide, where like 99% of the hype is on Twitter and TV with AI bros, but there are little niche communities messing with open weights, locally runnable models in a much more grounded way. /r/localllama used to be a hub for this (and there is a little branch on Lemmy), but unfortunately it seems to be getting strangled by Reddit enshittification .
Do you mean privacy?
No I meant piracy, as it's an example of something good you can use crypto for that payment processors are liable to censor. For example Annas Archive, which is practically a modern Library of Alexandria, takes crypto. I don't think Visa is censoring the EFF etc. Yet.
Doesn't work when the valuation goes up and down like a yo-yo. You need same currency.
Stablecoin is a thing. So is a system to control inflation.
The more pressing issue to me is the core premise: a totally anonymized but publicly recorded financial system makes no sense, especially when the user generally won’t grasp it. It’s just begging for thieves and scammers, and that’s what it got.
But if you can't get rich, no one wants to buy it or use it. This is the conundrum of crypto.
Yeah, and that toxic idea has completely poisoned the well.
But you can use the technology behind it
Afaik, not really.
CBDCs & IPFS are a thing (even GNU-Jami uses it too)
Seriously? Blockchains are only useful for cryptocurrencies?
All of them?
Big/popular ones have been taking over by the day trading/tech bro crowd.
Small ones seem to be in the realm of scammers/hypers, and there is no way to sort through the sludge.
Those in the middle seem to spin with no traction, and even stablecoins or the GNU one have some inherit issues to adoption.
GNU Taler seems to be a good thing to look into. Not a crypto currency but a payment system which preserves anonymity of the buyer.
It has been a while since this appeared; I wonder if it picks up steam. Now or never?
Imagine a future where Taler Systems SA becomes a financial powerhouse, holding a significant percentage of Euros to issue as tokens! Swiss bank accounts 2.0, giving Tether and USDC a run for their money.
There's Wero, a European alternative to VISA and Mastercard.
Is it? Doesn't look like they offer debit/credit cards.
Looks more like a PayPal alternative.
Yup that’s the current state of it. They say they’re planning to add in-store and online payment options though
It’s based on iDEAL, which we use in the Netherlands since 2005. All the Dutch banks are connected to it and when you pay, you approve the payment in your banking app or website, after which it’s immediately deducted from your bank account and the webshop gets an instant payment confirmation. Variations of this are also used peer to peer, for example for splitting the bill or when buying second hand stuff. You send someone a payment request (url) or show a QR and payments arrive instantly on your bank account, without any fees.
So indeed, even though it’s immensely popular and widely used, it’s not a full replacement for physical debit cards and it doesn’t offer credit.
Every country in the EU has some system for direct debit payments.
Italy has Bancomat, Germany has EC/Giro, France has Carte Bleue, Belgium has Bancontact/Mister Cash (still have not figured out whether they're supposed to be different or just different names in Flanders and Wallonia), and so on and so forth.
Does the Netherlands not have such a system?
It used to be that people would use these within their own country, but there would be Maestro for payments around Europe.
MasterCard decided to discontinue Maestro for MasterCard Prepaid which has higher fees.
The Germans whined about it a little and said that Europe should have come up with its own payment systems, but nothing came of it.
By now we are also supposed to have SEPA Instant, that should offer Europe-wide bank transfers. I still have not quite understood why a debit card system can't leverage that directly.
For debit cards we’ve always used Maestro for as long as I can remember. Nowadays new debit cards are usually Mastercard or Visa due to Maestro being discontinued, like you mentioned. Back in the days we also had a system called Giro cards, but then I’m taking about the time when cheques were still a thing.
There’s also the option to use direct debits from your bank account, which we use for subscriptions and utilities. This can be approved using iDEAL, same as with one-time payments. This doesn’t involve Maestro, Mastercard, or any card whatsoever. Most Dutch people only use debit cards in a physical stores.
We use iDEAL to pay taxes, the invoice of your house renovation, your Spotify subscription, your utilities, you name it. Of course instant bank transfers are also an option, but that’s basically the same thing, but with more effort and room for error.
It's a PayPal alternative, but developed in tandem with most European banks. That way, it will at some point also be used as backend for your normal debit and credit card payments, instead of VISA / MasterCard. If I remember correctly.
I would love to have an EU bank card. Hope we get one soon.
Cashless payment is fucked. Using a phone to pay with? Sorry, only google wallet or apple pay, and in most cases only visa or mastercard. It's only recently that that Danish "Dankortet" is getting support in those apps. Bit fucking late, but US led companies don't give a fuck.
Samsung have their own wallet app, too. There are also a number of alternatives to Visa and Mastercard, but unfortunately, they are not as widespread or are limited to a particular countries banking system. In Canada, we have Interac, for example.
Yeah, but at least here in DK the banks have to "support" those wallets. And as far as I know, none of them do, it's just Apple or Google. For reference the biggest bank in Denmark, "Danske Bank" also support Garmin Pay, but that's for smartwatch NFC pay. (Also those products aren't for plebeians like myself.)
I really hope that the EU introduces a global payment and banking system that is agnostic. I don't want to be under MasterVisa's thumb, and would prefer to keep the bulk of my money as Euros instead of American Dollars. Problem is, as an American, I can't readily use Euros in my daily life.
Here's hoping the EU can strike up a solution with Blue States, so that I don't need to ask Musk for permission to buy anything.
You could solve half of it by getting a Wise account which comes with both a real USD routing number as well as an European IBAN. You can keep your money as euros and do card payments in USD or any other currency with better rates than a normal European bank account would give you
HOWEVER
The Wise debit card is still a VISA one.
Wise is definitely on my radar. I will go for it. Also, I should get my passport if I can. Who knows what kinds of interesting times we will live in?
Hopefully not too interesting. As much as we love to rag on Americans here, I don't think anyone is rooting for mass deaths.
Unfortunately, the Traitor in Chief really likes Hitler and enjoys giving Putin a reacharound. I don't like our odds for having peace.
Don't let the Christians get up in there and dictate what you can and can't buy with it
Christian in name only.
it's sucked since roman times, but now even the good parts are being bled out until controlling and scamming people is all that's left.
I know what you mean, but it depends on definition (I commend you for having a more ethical one than them). They self-identify as Christians though.
Yeah, that is what happened to DLSite. It sells Japanese media such as hentai, so Visa & Mastercard put a universal ban on their products, no matter the category. It is a 1st Amendment violation IMO, since they are gatekeeping an entire culture.
I can easily see MasterVisa banning European or Canadian merchants for the sake of a Trump Regime.
we shouldn't allow private tyrants to control us like that
This is a worry for me. I opened an ebay.co.uk account in 2004. You had to pay for purchases via Paypal. I had all sorts of problems using Paypal and customer care was lousy. I started looking into Paypal and decided it was unethical. I opted out. Ever since, I have been looking for more ethical financial services. When I cannot find them, I just do without stuff.
Right now, I have allegedly ethical bank accounts with Co-Op Bank (UK), Smile Bank (UK) and Triodos (EU). I have a savings account with a community-run credit union (UK) and a prepaid debit card account through my trade union for online purchases (UK). This is good enough for UK-based activity. But I often need to send money abroad e.g. to charities in other countries or to support podcasts or creatives based abroad. I am asked to fund via USA resources like Patreon and I refuse. I want an ethical alternative.
I want to see each nation (or groups like the EU) create its own local resources and make them compatible with other nations via some exchange service that guarantees secure, quick, ethical transactions. I am glad EU is starting to do this, it is decades overdue. I guess UK will drag itself forward eventually but only after we get a government able to live in the here and now instead of the C20th like Starmer does - I suspect he has not had a new idea since 1995. He's younger than me but his mental processes make him seem like my grandfather. Oh, for some young people in government!
P.S. Hello, Media Storm, UK prize-winning investigative journalism podcast. You are great but I cannot fund you as you use oligarch-owned Patreon and communicate only via oligarch-run Instagram or gmail - if you read this, set up some UK-based, ethical comms or funding account and I will set up a monthly subscription. I will email you about this using mediastormpodcast(at)gmail.com but I resent it.
The EU plans this for many year, but the problem is every country is doing its own thing with its own standard, that is not working anywhere else. In Germany for example we have Giropay as a solution, which doesn't work in other countries. As it turns out, people move though, that's why for a couple of years now every bank is switching to VISA debit cards...
As far as I know, Giropay is being replaced by Wero, which is already supported by some banks in different European countries.
It is so far one if the better PayPal/Visa/MasterCard alternatives I‘ve used, but adoption is still a problem.
Yeah I’ve got a notification about Wero in my Sparkasse App but haven’t bothered checking it out yet lol
I have a couple of friends that seem to like it tho, I just rarely send any money
Annoyingly, we already have fast transactions as part of SEPA. But they're somewhat inconvenient to do and especially not available by just holding your card in front of a sensor.
If we had a harmonized standard for that we could get rid of Visa and MasterCard. And if we had a common web interface to make SEPA transactions more convenient than manually typing an IBAN into a homebanking interface we could get rid of PayPal as well.
Yes, I know services like that exist but I really hate how the current ones expect me to type the login credentials for my homebanking into a third-party website.
Exactly. Austria has eps which works well within Austria and with Austrian companies online, but no further than that.
We got UPI in india and it's amazing. You use it and feel like the rest of the world is living in the past.
Every country except US has an equivalent system tho.
How does India and Brazil (PIX) have that but US/EU doesn't?
To me, it is a bastard child who turned out noble. In India, the government a few years back had announced overnight invalidity of the highest two denominations of cash notes, in an ill-informed attempt to "eliminate black money". The alternative note to replace the two, was of even a higher denomination and often in scarcity due to the sudden and unplanned decision. (ATMs were malfunctioning due to the different size of the note). It was a chaotic time and many daily-wage earners, and other vulnerable groups, the economy as a whole suffered. These events indirectly led to a very good technological infrastructure, but I will always believe that the price included some of our blood. (It didn't have to be)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_banknote_demonetisation
We're so capable, it's crazy we needed to be threatened to realize it.
The problem is the dollar. While international trade is in US dollars, US can dominate global economy. But Trump is trashing dollar and promoting crypto. How long will the dollar remain default currency? I think when dollar loses its value, USA economy will crash harder than any crash in history. Wheelbarrows of dollars will not buy matches. Will another traditional currency replace the dollar or is dollar's fall a sign that the old system no longer works for any currency. How does economics function after money fails? Are we all going to have to use crypto? How does that work? I hope some expert in economics has worked out a plan. I doubt they have though, this is all unchartered territory.
When the same happened to the Zimbabwe currency - I have a friend who keeps a trillion dollar note in his wallet - they switched to US dollars. When the US economy crashes out something similar will happen.
I hope. Maybe Euro, maybe PRC's renminbi. We'll see.
I just wondered, give how US dollars is world's 'reserve currency' (since 1944 Bretton Woods pact), how its crash might affect the whole of global trade (it must hurt more than failure of a national currency like Zimbabwe's since it is a reserve currency and has a special role in the world). Will we get another reserve currency or has the world economy changed so much that we will get a new way of doing business with no reserve currency or multiple competing reserve currencies? I think we are in uncharted territory so its hard to predict...
I doubt it'll be any of the BRICS currencies, although my only knowledge of that stuff is what I get from Peter Zeihan vids on YT. His rather amusing take on that is that each nation only wants to be in it if they can run it, which obviously isn't going to work. The Euro is already proven to work across multiple nations and 32% more people than the USA, it's only idiots like us Brits that won't use it "bEcAuSe SoVeReIgNtY".
Watching the dollar crash will certainly be interesting...
It would probably work out ok for the UK if they used the Euro, but it's still useful to be able to dictate fiscal policy.
Very much so. People forget that the Euro comes with strings attached.
I'd rather have currency sovereignty. The euro is cute if you're a large country in the "free" trade region that supports it... otherwise it just means local produces unable to compete with scale economy and the slow dismantling of your country's production and transformation into a services country. Yay europe. But let's blame China instead.
Isn't that a old Chinese curse? 'May you live in interesting times...' Hold on to your hat!
My dad used drilled out and used his Zimbabwe coins as washers when he built a pergola there
An expert in economics saw the same problem and did work out a plan in 2009. Trump is trying to jump on the bandwagon of something much bigger than him.
Give us the sources, mate.
Cool. Thanks for that info.
Portugal has it's own network, Multibanco, and I know our central bank is working on a system targeted to the SEPA+ area. We already can send money to each other usong our phone number and our fiscal number.
I'm Portuguese and also lived in other countries in Europe and Multibanco is a vastly superior system to everything else I've seen, but on the ATM side rather than the payments side (everybody seems to have their own payment solution or, like the UK, rely on the likes of Visa and MasterCard) - already back in the 90s in Portuguese ATMs, in addition to withdrawing money, you could check your bank account balance, get a statement with the last transactions on your account and even pay your bills all this well before widespread internet access and online banking: that stuff was way ahead of its time back then.
Right now they've added stuff like touchless mobile payments and transfers, but the rest has caught up with them so you'll find such solutions in most countries plus that whole system is entirely local as it's the product of ages ago (before neoliberalism) the government forcing the banks to get together and create a company - SIBS - under shared ownership of the banks, responsible for setting up and managing a national interbank payment systems.
I wouod even say that the Multibanco system probably helps Portuguese banks maintain market lock-in against external competitors, which does get translated to Portugal having pretty high banking fees compared to the rest of Europe, especially for one of the poorest countries in the EU.
SIBS came up with virtual credit cards since at least 2009 - those are Visa or Mastercard cards, mind you, although that's defined by the debit card that it's associated with (so defined by the bank).
You can pay your bills in Portuguese ATMs, buy tickets, recharge your travel pass, withdraw money without a card, etc... makes most other systems seem like the stoneage.
E eu a tentar ser resumido.
Sempre achei interessante o quanto mais avançado o Multibanco era que o resto e geralmente só que viveu fora e dentro de Portugal usando os sistemas bancários de onde viveu é que se apercebe disso.
A nossa união bancária forçada, juntamente com a imposição do regulador, criou e ainda cria soluções interessantes. Entristece que os portugueses não sejam conscientes destes avanços.
Não é só em Portugal - por exemplo poucos têm noção que a razão pela qual a Europa estava na dianteira da technologia móvel no início (entre os anos 80 e para aí 2010) era porque usava um único standard - o GSM - algo que foi imposto pelos reguladores quando leiloaram o espetro móvel. Os Estados Unidos, entretanto, tinham vários standardes competitivos e não interoperáveis e até à era do smartphone estavam atrás da Europa na maioria das métricas de coisas como cobertura móvel, preços e adoção da tecnologia pelos consumidores (e por volta de 2010 tinha uníficado as redes deles à volta do GSM-3)
Eu diria mesmo que a maioría dos políticos na Europa do Presente, depois de 4 décadas de neo-liberalism e um prégar sem parar da Bíblia Da Desgregulamentação e Do Mercado Livre, esqueceram-se dessas lições, e isso inclui a maioria deles em Portugal, na minha opinião.
Padronização faz falta e dá fruto e não elimina concorrência nem inovaçâo.
That's the customer-facing ATM network, i'm not so sure SIBS's infrastructure doesn't rely on Via/Mastercard, even if they provide SPEA facilities.
Multibanco existed way before Visa/Mastercard arrived here.
Yes it'd s called GNU-Taler, Chief
Try it, you might just like it ;-)
I really like the concept of Taler.And I hope it goes somewhere.
Please let's think this ALL THE WAY: it is pointless to look for alternatives to the customer facing part if the backend still runs on US software.
We need European alternatives to the 2 American duopolies: Visa and Mastercard / Android and Apple.
Android is open source so any European company can just fork their flavor the same way Huawei did.
And there are alternatives to visa/mastercard but their local to each country: Cartes Bancaires in France, Girocard in Germany etc.
Local alternatives are not good enough. We need something that works internationally, otherwise it's not a true alternative.
Isn't CB in France still running through visa/MC?
Nope, they just integrate visa/mastercard for international payments like most other European providers.
That was true, once upon a time. "Carte Bleue" is part of Visa Europe (which has been reintegrated into Visa. Inc in 2015) since 2010.
We also have MobilePay here in Denmark, Swish in Sweden, Bancomat in Italy.
But I am still dubious there is proper sovereignty in the whole stack each one of these run on.
You sweet summer child...
We have a few options …Fairphone with EOS is probably the best.
I’d love to see it.
It's weird that this hasn't already long since happened. Most every Asian country I've been to has had its own local payment systems.
There seems to be this idea that Visa & Mastercard are somehow too big to be usurped, but it's all illusion.
I'm a firm believer in payment neutrality. Visa and Mastercard as payment processors should neither be held liable for what payments go through their pipes, but at the same time they cannot stop any payment going through their pipes.
For all things like money laundering etc. Those must be handled by banks and the government, not the payment processor. Visa and Mastercard are just pipes for money to travel through, not banks.
Cash is king
Those are Euros.
D€ will basiclly acomplish this.
Edit: Important FAQ
Yup, there's no reason to be happy about the alternative to MC and Visa, they will use it as an opportunity to introduce CBDC
If only there was an encrypted permissionless way of sending money instantly, it's cryptic nobody hasn't invented a lite coin or moneyro like that.
I don't think I will. But say hi to your bank teller for me next time your card is declined (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ
I see you're having a hard time keeping up with the convo, we can end it here buddy, don't worry.
Lol why am I a scammer, dummy? Because I like crypto? Listen let me give you a heads up... You're not tge sharpest tool in the shed. You're most likely at a disadvantage when arguing with strangers, so today's tip: don't. ಠ_ಠ
Why would a central bank ever want that
What a central institution wants should be irrelevant if it's what people want and use.
The up/down voting ratio on your comment is quite enlightening with regards to bias (or pride).