They do, but they're incredibly prone to breaking when you pull and sometimes they're just hard as shit to grip so you have to use a screwdriver to twist and pull.
I don't think I need to explain why that's so dangerous.
As someone who has changed hundreds of iphone batteries, the adhesive sucks. At least they changed to a different adhesive around iphone 8 because alcohol does wonders on it. I don't even attempt to pull the tabs on those anymore.
May I ask how you do that? Do you just...douse the battery in alcohol? There isn't much of a gap between the adhesive and the battery in my experience, so it just sits inside the chasis and rolls around. I haven't had any luck with that but I'm probably doing it wrong.
I drizzle some in the corner and then use a sturdy tool to gently pry up on the battery to allow the alcohol to get deeper under. Since the adhesive patches are small to fit around the wireless charging coil, it doesn't take much. Once you get one side of the battery loose the other will easily come with it, especially if the alcohol got to them.
Don't use a screwdriver. Use a plastic card if at all possible. I can't say I've repaired any iPhones so maybe you can't fit something like that in, but I've done plenty of Macbooks and label remover w/ plastic card = battery out in no time, with no fire.
If you can't use a card, use a plastic spudger, like the one you get with iFixit toolkits.
Fingers crossed that this will be implemented well, im tired of having sleek electronics be irrelevant in 2 years when the silicon could go for 5 or six
The silicon could go on for decades if both the modem and processor were fully documented hardware that the community can access and support in the Linux kernel.
I can run a secure and current form of Linux on 30+ year old hardware if I want to, because the hardware documentation was expected by everyone at the time even if some end users were oblivious to what this meant. The whole reason google pushes Android is because they provide a base Linux kernel that hardware manufacturers can easily slip their proprietary junk into without requiring them to add the kind of open source code needed for mainline kernel support by the community. This is the mechanism that depreciates your device. It is totally artificial and an end user exploitation by design.
It's usually not silicon on the PCB that fails, but the other electronic components (usually the capacitors) that fails first, and since they are surface mounted devices it's really difficult to solder them by hand.
There are no electrolytics in phones, and most newer phones don't even have tantalums. So long as there are no flexing stresses induced, which is nearly impossible with the way phones are constructed now, the all MLC capacitors construction has the potential to outlast any PC motherboard or laptop by a large margin.
The most critical issue is board connectors and moisture ingress. The USB-C connector or any other high pin density micro sized connector with a tiny pin pitch, and large electrical potential will fail from charge cycling and a resistance forming between pins. USB-C is particularly bad because reversing the connector doubles the number of pins on the board in a ridiculous amount of space. Just using a standard USB-C connector when ordering a prototype to be fabed at any common board house will double the price. The USB-C pin pitch is too tight for the most common fab process resolution.
The pin pitch only matters for high power application to prevent arcing, and that can also be resolved through the most modern USB-PD standard (See: USB-PD Extended Power Range, which can support up to 240w), and the electrical adjustment you have to make are all on the device side.
I don't know about the resistance forming between the pins, for low cycle applications the cheapest gold flash plating would easily last 10K plug cycles, and accounting for corrosion from hand sweat/oil/hand lotion, many companies favor going for thicker hard gold or platinum plating nowadays. (Rhodium is the absolute best, but it's just too expensive now to do at scale because they are used in catalytic converters for electric cars). USB-C lasts for many more cycles than the Micro-USB standards before it (You can read the 4 axis and wrenching test standards for mechanical testing on the USB spec) so I'm not sure what you are talking about here.
Lab tests rarely reflect the real world. I've seen several issues with Pixels that had an issue with PD failing due to moisture, corrosion, and a bridge developing at the connector.
Actually, no, the lab tests are standard with all products of all large companies, and they are usually conducted in extreme conditions, like 100% moisture at 80-90C oven for 48 hours and highly concentrated salt spray kind of extreme.
You bring up the example of Google Pixel, yeah, because it's Google, they are software people who think they can just cheap out on hardware and save a couple of cents by making it up in software. Look at the Nexus 5X and 6P, both devices had an absurd amount of quality control issues compared to the other products made by the manufacturers, and the only factor in common between them is Google.
Things change with time. The Pixel is now the most secure phone available due to its hardware encryption key verification system. It is the only phone that can run a verifiably secure bootloader and ROM on top of the same untrusted hardware situation found in all modern proprietary devices. Running a Pixel on Graphene OS is the most free and honestly liberating experience that has been available since the invention of capacitive touch technology made these handheld computers popular. The hardware build is on par with any similar device of the same price point, made in the same facilities as most devices.
Hooray!
Younger generations will finally be able to experience the joy of dropping their phone and having to pick up three to four different pieces! /s
I was 12, I think, when I got my first phone. A Nokia.
I was mortified the first time it happened. Then clack-clack-clack I was taught to put it together again.
Phones are getting more expensive so people are holding on to them longer, so it's a nice quality of life improvement to remove the barriers to battery replacement so less people have to go down to a phone repair store to get it changed. The more of a hassle battery replacement is seen the more likely people are to just upgrade and create e-waste.
The problem here is that in order for most people to be able to replace the battery themselves safely they need to be really idiot proof.
We’d need to return to back covers with latches or big screws and batteries in cases and contacts. This shit is bulky, heavy and hardly waterproof.
New iPhones use lipo pouch with a ZIF connector straight to the motherboard with a “pull to release” adhesive strip hidden under a panel with a single use sticky seal and two small screws. There is no black magic in replacing the battery yourself and the solution is small, lightweight and waterproof.
However most people wouldn’t even know which way to turn the screws to loosen them and probably wouldn’t be bothered by throwing the phone away and getting the one with a better camera AI and more emojis.
my first smartphone was an lg optimus s. that thing saw more toilet time than my butt. i lost track of how many times i dropped it in the toilet. it went in a lake a few times, also. it was a beast
Though it wasn't ever cheap enough for my allowance 🤣 probably for the best, my first android smartphone came a couple years later in the Vodafone Smart 4 Turbo. (snapdragon 410 version)
They were great little phones. I miss that form factor so much. The closest recent ones were the xperia z3 and z5 compacts they were about perfect but did not have removable battery. Then sony ditched that form for their 21:9 shapes and the price went through the roof.
@riodoro1@NightOwl I dunno, if you compare capacities of say, iPhone 14 Pro (12.38Wh) to Fairphone 4 (15.03Wh) and then the product dimensions of the two. There's not a huge amount in it. Adding the 14 Pro Max (16.68Wh) for additional comparisons.
The Fairphone is 2.6mm thicker than the iPhones. (Yes the screen bezels are chonk too lol) But the fairphone is also making allowance to make every single component swappable, and has an IPS display (switching to OLED would save 1+ millimeter)
The hard part with iPhones isn't the battery side of the equation here, it's Magsafe (which is great imo) While regular QI charging is fairly lowkey, I could see the extra tech required inside the phone for that being prohibitive in terms of spatial management.
Yeah, I wish there was some advancements made when it came to trying to create swappable battery devices that retain water proofing. That area has just stalled since expensive disposable tech is more lucrative. Average person should just get a new one like you said as long as the process is still more difficult than changing a light bulb.
Yeah, I wish there was some advancements made when it came to trying to create swappable battery devices that retain water proofing.
If nothing else, regulations like the one described in here will do just that. So far the tech giants haven't had any incentive to design sleek, waterproof devices with replaceable batteries. But you've gotta believe that if they're required to have replaceable batteries, they're not going to say "OK, back to chonky non-waterproof devices for us!". They're going to spend some of their R&D budgets to innovate ways that makes it more realistic to do all three.
The original Moto Defy got it right the first time with ip67 rated, removable battery, expandable storage, and a headphone jack. The next major improvement came with the xperia z(or z3) and they got waterproof charge ports and headphone jacks (no port plug required) but ditched the removable battery. Every other phone since seems to have stripped away some useful feature since. The new defy 2 is going to have satelite messaging but is huge and no removabpe battery or headphone jack iirc.
[edit: deleted, echo chamber here. Android good, Apple bad. Moving on and blocking this community, can't have a reasonable conversation, just like reddit I guess].
How is this an Android vs Apple thing? Most of the major manufacturers are making devices with the battery sealed in; they'll all have to innovate ways of making them removable.
The difference is that most of the people isn't expected to own a mechanical watch, but having a smartphone is pretty much expected. You cannot treat a basic commodity as if it were a luxury item.
I actually love all these regulations on smartphones (mainly by the EU), like the recent USB-C standard. That one in particular makes it so much easier to share chargers around the house!
Couldn't agree more, two years ago I was gifted a small wireless speaker which works fine and everything but I sometimes even forget to charge it because its cable is a 15cm short USB-A to Micro-USB one which somehow is the only Micro-USB cable I have left at home as I didn't have any other device with that port in years and I had thrown away a few cables when I last moved. Now whenever I am looking for a new electronic device USB-C is one of the first things I check and it's a deal breaker for me.
Excellent! Batteries in modern phones are surprisingly definitely removable and replaceable. I've done it multiple times. However, the unfriendly barrier to entry is glue and clips that require careful prying with spugers. It's quite clear manufacturers are happy blocking you getting in; plenty people just buy new phones when the battery gets too old.
If this goes through, I think it would be really good news. Battery failure is one of the leading things that force people to replace their smartphones, and having them be replaceable would go a long way towards making smartphones last longer.
If the manufacturer wants to force you to upgrade they still can... they can stop making the battery that works with your phone model (and notch them to make sure they can't fit).
Back in the day there were some manufacturers that made batteries that worked with several of their models, Nokia was one of them, but not all of them did.
Even Nokia had a deprecation cycle for battery models and when that happened you were stuck buying crappy Chinese copies.
But they are replaceable in that sense. You can take it back the the manufacturer or to one of those independent phone stores and they’ll swap out a battery for you.
I don’t think a user swappable battery is actually a feature most users need. Not when smartphones get over a day out of a charge, you can charge at home, work or in a car, and external batteries exist.
That's where I have to disagree. Perhaps in your country you have lots of OEM repair stores but where I live we have none. Only 3rd party guys who are totally independent.
I had a LG V30 in mint condition but the battery was done. No one has that battery and no one is interested in getting it because LG sold so few devices here. You can't even find cases for most phones, only Samsung phones or iPhone's.
So I had to get a new phone.
This is very common in most of the world, especially the Developing countries.
I don’t doubt they didn’t have one in stock but I have trouble believing they wouldn’t order one for you or swap it if you brought it in yourself. You can buy one online and have it delivered anywhere in the world in days for $30.
What phone are you using? Both apple and Samsung have made their devices borderline impossible to swap the battery out. They will then charge you an arm and a leg for sometime that used to be an easy swap.
In my country Apple will swap the battery for you for $160Aud on their latest phones that cost Aud1800+. Older models are even cheaper. That’s not an arm and a leg when the battery itself will be over $100aud and you get full warranty coverage out of it.
And when you scratched up the back you bought a new one for $12. No $200 glass or machined aluminum cases that we put $35 covers on just to protect them from every day use.
This is actually pretty crazy. Wonder how much it'll affect the overall design of modern smartphones. Will we witness the return of flagships with plastic back covers?
God i hope so. I miss being able to just pop the back off and change out my battery. It was great for sd and sim card slots too. I am quite excited for this
I wouldn't get too excited. I purchased a galaxy xcover 6 pro at launch. It is a recent device with a removeable plastic back cover with a gasket on it to preserve the IP68 rating, much in the same style as was popular up to the galaxy S5.
It seems like they forgot how to make that design work, because the first time I got caught in the rain it died an immediate and very hot death.
There are many other ways to carry out this design but they make the device a bit thicker which manufacturers are going to absolutely hate.
That'd be awesome. I don't understand why people think a glass back is premium. Your premium glass back doesn't look so fancy when it's shattered into a million pieces or sandwiched behind a $10 phone case from China.
I've hung on to my Note 4 that I bought in 2014 (no longer use it daily) and it's still in one piece even though it never lived in a case. The plastic and aluminum body have plenty of battle scars but no cracks or functional damage. This MFer is almost 10 years old now on its 5th or 6th battery and still hanging in there despite its aged hardware. Now that is a premium design.
Wireless charging isn't all that needed IMO. It's kind of old technology, my phone had it 10 years ago but none of my phones have had it since and I haven't really missed it because USB C charging is fast enough where wireless charging isn't really necessary.
It's also a gimmick afaic, it's not "Wireless" to me until it can charge contactless from a distance. This not-really-wireless wireless crap just moved the connection and made it magnetic instead of a plug. It's a glorified magsafe lmao
Hell yeah, dont understand why people are big about this while it just contact charging. It doesnt even charge phone fast nor efficient. Funny people keep bragging about waste while they use inefficient charging method which waste more energy.
It's inefficient, but it doesn't depend on a finnicky-ass charging port so that's nice.
When Apple goes USB-C on iPhones, I will unfortunately have to start using wireless charging, because USB-C ports are so annoying to clean compared to Lightning, I don't plan on having a functional one after a year of owning a USB-C phone.
I'd never want to get rid of wired charging, but wireless is a really nice option. I'm never able to find a good angle/spot for my phone in my car with a wire sticking out of it. Even with a dashboard mount, I would prefer the mount itself be powered to avoid having the cable just hanging with the pull of gravity on it.
Phone manufacturers: "Man this glass stuff likes to shatter a lot no matter what we try to make it stronger. I know, let's wrap the whole phone in it that'll solve everything!!!! 111"
I hate wireless charging too, though. It's inherently less efficient than wired, and you have less range of motion while charging. With a wire, I can still use my phone while it's plugged in. Wireless charging needs to go away imo.
Couldn't disagree more. Wireless charging with magnetic attachment like magsafe is a godsend for using my phone as a GPS. Just slap it onto it's magnetic wireless charger and go. Pull it off when done. A million times better than the old chargers that grip the phone and then also having to plug it in every time I need to drive somewhere, then undo it all when I get there.
I'm pretty glad to have both options. I take your point about using it while charging, but I also find myself having to jump up from my desk quite a bit, and it's nice to be able to just pick up my phone without first unplugging it. And I imagine all of that plugging and unplugging is reducing the durability of the port over time.
I really like the magnetic charging port plug adaptors for situations like that, but personally, if I'm jumping up and down from my desk at work or something and have my phone plugged in, I'll just leave it on my desk while I'm away. And if I'm not coming back to it for a good bit, the extra half second it takes to unplug my phone is more than worth the more efficient power transfer, imo.
Even disregarding material, it is literally less efficient due to transmission losses, and it's only "wireless" in so far as you have a wireless dock to drop your phone on that is then attached to the wall just like a regular cable. The only thing it does is make it so you don't have to plug a cable in or use a magnetic cable attachment, but there isn't really any convenience gain over just having a charging cord especially if you have a super long charging cable for your stationary spots in the house.
I recently read an article how indeed American consumers benefit from European regulations as often it is easier to make one product that fits all the market than multiple variations of it.
For companies like Apple, it would be cost more to keep two types of ports for different regions rather than upgrade the new devices all together.
Been holding out with my broken iPhone 12 waiting for that sweet USB-C
I do miss being able to swap out a phone battery and this will certainly be a step in the right direction in terms ewaste and device longevity.
One thing that I wonder about is waterproofing or water resistance. Some phones are basically waterproof in shallow water. How achievable is this with a device with a trivial way to remove the battery?
I had this and I loved it. But it was quite a poor waterproofing. It didn't work under much pressure and the gasket was super prone to losing it's seal. If it was ever dropped the back popped off. I use the waterproof feature of the modern sealed phones a lot and frankly these didn't cut it at all. Water-resistant at best.
Would still be dope to have the default be removable battery with gasket backs though.
This is my concern as well. Having a phone that is water and dust resistant is far more important to me than being able to replace the battery. I haven't had the need to replace a phone battery in probably more than a decade.
For my needs, I probably need enough basic water resistance to keep rain out or moisture from wet hands, etc, but it really would be nice to have full water proofing. When I lived in a more humid climate the moisture in the air was enough to kill an old phone of mine over time.
I’m one of the few who agree with you here. I have my phones for many years and simply take them to the Apple Store for a battery replacement when needed - takes a few minutes. I’m happy doing that for the size and durability benefits.
I imagine water resistance comes in handy quite often for many people. It has certainly saved me countless times. Not that I need to go swimming or deep sea diving with my phone, but I have dropped phones in water, been stuck in the rain, spilled a glass of water, etc. I ruined many phones before it became common.
You don't ever really 'need to use' the waterproof feature on your phone. It's more insurance for most people.
I have personally known dozens of people for who'm it's saved their phone including:
Dropped it in the toilet.
Dropped in pool.
Dropped it in the bath.
Bag flooded when water bottle broke.
Flooded when coffee cup failed.
Rained out.
Pouring rain on a bike ride.
Pouring rain when needed GPS on motorcycles.
The above are things that happened both to people I know individually and also all of the above have happened to be at some point.
I don't necessarily like the lack of being able to swap out the batteries for a cheap replacement but I do like that waterproofing to a high degree should be a default feature for things like phones. It could be argued to get waterproof cases or keep it in a bag and that's all good and well (except the waterproof cases as they suck and break) but isn't it nice for the default to be that the device itself is waterproof if that was an option?
But removable batteries and waterproof are not mutually exclusive. It was already possible 10 years ago and still is. The current selection is limited, but this legislation will change that.
Manufacturers have options to coat the boards in a rubber-like coating - this makes it much less likely to short out, if it gets wet. Like stated above, that with used in conjunction with gaskets, these devices are pretty darn watertight even with replaceable/removable batteries.
Water proofing is for more than just taking it underwater though. It's also for getting caught in the rain, leaving it on a bathroom counter while you shower, or accidentally dropping it in a puddle.
That's not waterproof though in the marketing world. That's water resistant. Waterproof means you can dump your phone in your toilet after you took a piss standing up drunk at the bar and pick it up piss covered and it will still work.
I agree that is isn't really necessary for most people, but I do know quite a few people who use it because they know the phone will be safe. My partner uses her phone in the pool all the time. I'm often dripping wet after coming in from surfing, even after drying off with a towel. It is nice to be able to check my phone without worrying I'm going to mess it up.
I'm not saying it is a feature every phone needs, but it is something that some people use. I'm all for replaceable batteries and would like to see them more available. They will improve the longevity of devices as long as they aren't damaged in other ways.
Hmm well I don't know the solution to this. The only phone I know of that was popular that had a removable battery and "waterproof" was the galaxy S5. It really wasn't waterproof though.
It was IP67 certified if the port cover was closed. We've come a long way with sealing USB ports over the last 10 years so I'm certain it could be done without needing a door now.
I worked in mobile phones at the time and many customers came back with damaged S5s because they were told it was waterproof and spilt a glass of water or some such and it ruined the phone. We saw the moisture strip on the battery activated more than a few times.
Makes sense. If the port cover was open even a bit, the microUSB port wasn't sealed against water at all and water goes everywhere. Modern phones wouldn't have that particular problem so we'd have to see how they'll handle replaceable batteries now.
I just assumed they had some hydrophobic setup figured out because not long after the sony Xperia Z waterproof marketing I saw phones without gaskets and coverings touting IPs.
Fairly certain Iphones are IP whatever and they have open ports.
You know, I really like my Essential Ph-1. It was a lovely little phone. I had the little 360 camera accessory that snapped on magentically and everything. It was so cool! Then, 1.5 seconds, dropped into water from which I grabbed it instantly, and it was done. No warranty coverage for dropping it in water, and zero waterproofing, and toasted phone. So, yes, more of us "use" waterproofing on our phones than you would think. The thing is that it didn't need to be this way. There were waterproof phones back before everything was glued glass slabs all the time. Galaxy S5 Sport as mentioned by @[email protected] above (and other "sport" edition phones). We have a lot of hygrophobic coatings and tech we didn't have in the day of the Galaxy S5 series. We can do better now, if manufacturers are forced to.
They can just seal the rest of the components exposing just a connection for the battery. There were water resistant phones before, the major reason they decided to make the battery unremovable was to make people buy new phones. Nobody wants to charge their phones multiple times a day.
Some "Sport" phones had this before everything was glued together, with gaskets and rubber port plugs (because the hygrophobic coatings used in ports now weren't available yet).
It worked really well on my Galaxy S5. IP67 and easy enough to replace the battery on without tools. They'd just have to switch out the back for something not glass probably on modern phones.
It won't happen though. It'll be a kind of malicious compliance from the manufacturers: we'll incorporate replaceable batteries but we're not going to waterproof anything
Misleading title. Phones can still be glued. Waterproof phones still don't need to have a user replaceable battery (the battery needs to be replaceable but by professionals).
Do you have a reference for that? From all the documentation I've seen elsewhere, that's not true. There's no exclusion for waterproof devices, and everything has to be possible with tools a normal person can buy (you might need to go to a local hardware store, but no unique specialist expensive kit).
It's totally possible to make waterproof phones with removable batteries - Samsung did it with the Galaxy S5 (IP67 - 1 meter under water for 30 minutes) way back in 2014 and there's lots of other examples. It's just not quite as cheap as glueing everything together.
Thank you for linking the text. For anyone wondering, here is Ch. 2, Article 11 regarding portable battery replacement:
Article 11
Removability and replaceability of portable batteries
Portable batteries incorporated in appliances shall be readily removable and
replaceable by the end-user or by independent operators during the lifetime of the appliance, if the batteries have a shorter lifetime than the appliance, or at the latest at the end of the lifetime of the appliance.
A battery is readily replaceable where, after its removal from an appliance, it can be substituted by a similar battery, without affecting the functioning or the performance of that appliance.
The obligations set out in paragraph 1 shall not apply where
(a) continuity of power supply is necessary and a permanent connection between the appliance and the portable battery is required for safety, performance,
medical or data integrity reasons; or
(b) the functioning of the battery is only possible when the battery is integrated into the structure of the appliance.
The Commission shall adopt guidance to facilitate harmonised application of the
derogations set out in paragraph 2
"if the batteries have a shorter lifetime than the device" sounds like it could be exploited though, well folks the processor can only last 2 years on these new phones because of (insert random corpo bullshit here)
By way of derogation from paragraph 1, the following products incorporating portable batteries may be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals:
(a) appliances specifically designed to operate primarily in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion, and that are intended to be washable or rinseable;
(b) professional medical imaging and radiotherapy devices, as defined in Article 2, point (1), of Regulation (EU) 2017/745, and in-vitro diagnostic medical devices, as defined in Article 2, point (2), of Regulation (EU) 2017/746.
Thanks! That's interesting to see, looks like this is an amendment? I'm not totally sure how that bit of the legal process works here.
I'd be surprised if this is intended to apply to mobile phones though - very few phones are used primarily in an environment of water immersion. They're designed for incidental protection, but the regular day-to-day use case is pretty dry! I'd read that as intended for things like watersports & diving equipment.
It's not an amendment, this is the actual law as it is adopted. The other document was just the proposal.
very few phones are used primarily in an environment of water immersion
They don't have to be primarily used in that environment, they have to be designed to be used in that environment. The way this is worded is extremely broad and can basically mean anything you want it to mean. All current waterproof smartphones could fall under this exemption.
I love the EU and regulations like this but it always makes me sad when they make them broad and open to interpretation because that means corporations will find ways to get away with whatever they want.
Honestly, I'd be surprised. Fighting the EU on technicalities when the intention here is so clear is going to be hard work! To even get close to a good case, they'd have to change all the marketing for the device to show it's clearly being intended as a primarily water-use product. The words "primarily" and "regularly" in there aren't just decorative, they'd really have to demonstrate that to make it stick! Seems to have more downside than just making the battery removable in the first place.
The full quote also has this bit:
This derogation should only apply when it is not possible, by way of redesign of the appliance, to ensure the safety of the end-user and the safe continued use of the appliance after the end-user has correctly followed the instructions to remove and replace the battery.
Since real phones do already exist that are both waterproof and have removable batteries, I think it's very hard to plausibly say "it's impossible to design this in a way the user can safely remove the battery".
Of course, to know for sure we'll both just have to wait and see 😄
Do you have any examples other than the S5, because like zero people have given any, and many have pointed out the S5 failed at "water resistance" at very high rates.
They are mostly fairly old, because manufacturers have stopped making batteries removable (which is exactly why they're legislating it). Some new though, and in fact Samsung's current ultra-resilient rugged edition phones all have removable batteries: https://www.samsung.com/us/business/mobile/phones/galaxy-xcover-pro/. It's clearly possible!
Even if this is the case, that's still pretty good. That means either it has to be waterproof for it to warrant being glued OR it has to have a removable battery. Forcing manufacturers to either improve the ingress rating on their phone or increase the usability and repairability. Still a good step no?
You cannot have a consumer device at a reasonable price point, designed to provide water resilience, which also contains an open section to the power supply.
You certainly can. Look up any flagship smartphone and you can see that they provide water resilience and they have a charging port.
Phones with battery covers can also be waterproof, it has been done before, we can still do it now. My Galaxy S5 was waterproof and it had a removable battery cover. That was almost 10 years ago, imagine what we can do now. USB ports are waterproof now and don't require a cover like they did on the S5.
Although this is obviously a step in the right direction it needs to be followed up with security updates, no point increasing the life of the hardware without doing the same for the software.
Yes! That would be the best. We should have access to our hardware. And just like most things you want to keep around for a long time (e.g. cars) you will have to tinker with it to keep it running smoothly into old age.
I hope you mean, always make it possible to unlock the bootloader offline (to not be dependent on them). There are good security reasons to have it locked by default.
While it is certainly nice to have continued support, I think I'd disagree that forcing companies to maintain software on legacy/outdated hardware is something that should be legislated. I think that would greatly stifle innovation in a lot of cases.
I'd be a supporter of something like @[email protected]'s suggestion, though. If they are no longer able to support security updates, then they should open it up to be able to maintain it yourself/community-maintainable. Expecting a company to maintain support through continued development on a 10 or 20 year old device that in some cases may not even be physically able to handle the updates is a big ask.
I don't think the market has been very innovative over the last few years anyway, slow iterative upgrades that do not necessitate modern hardware for security. It's not like the latest phone attacks are thwarted by a macro and wide angle lens.
The older phone are perfectly capable of handling further security updates.
If they want to sell phones they should be breaking new ground.
I'm not saying I think it would be a bad thing for support to continue. I just don't think it should be legally required. If a small company decided to develop and produce a device, knowing they'd have to perpetually support it, legally, makes it exponentially cumbersome to continue further development. Newer software may not be able to run on older hardware, meaning they'd have to develop and maintain multiple versions of any security fix. For Apple, it'd hardly be a problem (financially) to continue support.
On the other hand, I understand that this creates a situation where new phones keep being churned out that are hardly different hardware-wise. It'd be lame to stop supporting the older devices just to push people to buy another one (Apple). There's probably some middle ground to be found here.
This is very neat!
I wonder how this is going to impact almost all phones these days having some sort of ingress protection. They glue the phones together to keep the water out, it would still be nice to have the option for water-resistant phones, but the manufacturers just gonna have to figure it out
Removable batteries existed in smart phones before. There are plenty of devices today, walkie talkies for example, that are fully waterproof and are battery swappable.
But there were smartphones with removable covers. The Samsung Galaxy S5, for example, had both an IP67 rating, and a similarly thin profile to modern smartphones. (It also managed to fit wireless charging in if you had a special back).
Do owners actually want thin? I've never heard anyone brag about how thin their phone is. I'm almost positive the thin fetish only exists so companies have a nice easy number to advertise, like all the useless numbers they slap on processors and TVs.
Good, it's a small victory but one step closer to a society that doesn't create waste just to buy the next new shiny toy. Products should be build to last, be easily repairable and create as little waste as possible (which isn't possible in a system that demands unlimited growth over anything else). If we want to have a somewhat ok climate in the future, just focusing on electric vehicles (which are doing the whole subscription to access your hardware fully, not easily repairable bs as well) isn't gonna cut it.
I've not read the actual legislation, but it sounds like you could be compliant with these rules as long as it's theoretically possible to replace the battery with a screwdriver - manufacturers wouldn't have to go as far as old-style swappable batteries that you just pull out and plug a new one in.
I own an older flagship Android phone that is almost as good as anything that currently exists on the market. It even has a capacity that outperforms every single new phone I've looked at. The only issue is that now, after about 4 years, the battery only lasts me about a day. If I can replace my battery, I'll end up likely keeping this phone for another two years. It's still in perfect physical condition.
Same here. Fairphone 3 from first shipment, second battery, and I keep the old one around as a replacement on hikes. Way better then a power bank.
I also dunked my phone more than once in wash water and bathtubs (small children) and never had to do more than pull out the battery and spread the parts to dry for a day.
It will be a pretty major redesign of the chasis and body to accommodate a removable battery and the cover, so I think it would make little economical sense to maintain two designs for every phone sold here.
I’m wondering how ‘user replaceable’ is defined. Will we get backs that just pop off, or do they just need to be easier to replace? (No glue or proprietary tools required)
I can’t wait to hear the Apple marketing word for this feature. They’ll add some gimmick like the battery is held in with magnets and say “We call it MagPack and we think you’re going to love it.”
I recently bought an iPad as my first Apple device ever, and I keep laughing my ass out every time I decide to dig deeper into their weird locked in system. Like, with the next iOS update they should finally enable side loading apps because the EU is forcing them to, and while reading about it I came across lots of statements from them on how this will create a HUUUUUGE risk for the users and it's basically the end of the world. Guys just tell your users to not download weird shit and that's about it. It's not like iPhones are gonna magically download spyware by themselves.
It’s true that sideloading adds risk but it’s a risk that all desktop and laptop computers AND android devices AND jail token iPhones have lived with since the beginning of time. Speaking of that, Apple are even trying to limit sideloading on Macs. Sometimes MacOS will block you from installing software you downloaded from the web, complaining of “unknown developer.” There is a MacOS App Store too and they want you using only that. You can still dig through settings to override this but for how much longer?
Holy fuck this is insane. EU is doing something right (still salty about them wanting encryption keys but provisions to improve repair of hardware is big)
This i fucking loved the times around Samsung S4 , i literarily could just go and buy a replacement battery on amazon even with 200 MAH more snap the old one out and new one in BAM better battery.
Exchanging battery for my Poco x3 pro is complicated and would cost me atleast 70-80€ thats literarily half the device lol
I don't actually care about their marketing that much, but removable batteries on mobiles is the right direction moving forward. Batteries are literally the only reason why I can't use a 5 year old mobile
Ye same my poco x3 pro that is coming close to 2 years kinda needs soon one, it's slower charging and the battery is at 83-79% health it could use a new one but man... Swapping it is so complicated in it and paying someone is like 50% of the device.
My last phone bit the dust because I made the mistake of taking it apart to repair it. It became a gluey piece of garbage. If I want it be waterproof I'll stick it in a sandwich bag. Or maybe the manufacturer can use the novel tech of gaskets.
Wow ; thats pretty amazing - now I have even more respect for them thinking ahead and going after the USB-C ports first... this could force manufacturers to give us a better product - I'll be watching this.
No it doesn't. you have have IP68 and a removable battery. What's not as easy it making them paper-thin as the battery needs to have structural integrity of its own.
I used a hammy down s5 for a few years. Just had to replace the battery and it was good to go. It eventually degraded and became really really slow. Good phone.
I've never understood the whole waterproof thing. I've never been in an instance where my phone was in any danger of getting wet. I get float trips and stuff but that seems like an uncommon case and even then there are ways to waterproof a phone temporarily.
You don’t use your phone on the bathroom or the kitchen? It never rains where you live? You never keep your phone in your pocket next to a sweaty leg?
I want a phone that can survive minor issues. I don’t want a phone that will die because it slipped into the sink while washing my hands or something like that. A degree of being waterproof does that.
I don't think a phone needs to be 100% waterproof to 50 metres, but some amount of water-resistance is just good product design. Companies should not be encouraging people to dunk their phones in water, I think IP ratings sadly encourage this as well as some of the advertising around their water resistance claims.
But having some amount of water resistance built into electronics helps reduce e-waste because accidents do happen. For more serious water activities people should be buying waterproof bags for their electronics.
Add to this, most people will put on a big honkin' rubber case which increases its size dramatically and the battery size issue will become irrelevant!
I had a cubot power which had an "non-removeable" battery. The running time was about two days with medium usage. I thought probably they packed every remaining space with battery which explains a non removeable one.
So I broke it a few weeks ago and decided to check out the battery. Turns out it was just that they glued the shit out of the backplate (which was more work to get of than the screen which glue already gave up) and put a normal sized battery in wich had no quick connector attached, but one of those flimsy wires that fall apart if you look at them wrong. The same shit apple introduced in their ipods.
There is and never was any reason for "non removeable batteries" other than prohibiting the user from repairing the most common failure point of a phone!
Absolutely nothing will change
You can already swap the battery very easily, once you win the fight with the glue. Granted, most of the recent phones now allows removing said glue more or less easily, too.
The only problem i can see are the IP ratings, as the backplate would need to be swappable
I'm assuming somewhere in the middle leaning more toward easily user replaceable. The current crop of batteries are designed to be replaced by specialists with the right tools and the EU voted to depart from that.
Good! I loved having removable batteries, especially while traveling. Just carry a charged battery and hotswap them instead of having to find a plug to camp by for 30-60 minutes
So many solid wins for EU, so exciting!
If it means things become much easier then having to remove a bunch of components just to get to the battery to replace it. I am in.
I honestly don't have too many issues removing the back with a spuger and heat... Provided they make it so you can replace it just as well.
The majority of the reasons people dispose of smart phones and buy a new phone is due to the battery degrading. It costs a lot just to replace it.
Swappable batteries increases the longevity of a phone, means I can daily drive my phone for longer.
Which is what I want... My pixel 5a battery is already degrading pretty badly.
I like my phone but I feel disappointed I didn't get more usage out of it.
I saw how to replace it, and to do so it means removing a lot of components including the screen... And even though they sell replacement parts including screens they do not for whatever reason sell 5a screens to the UK it honestly baffles me...
Google doing some things for right to repair but much like other companies. It does feel like they are dragging their feet a little bit.
Finally! Now to also force phonemakers to universally provide bootloader unlocks so we can put our own ROMs on our devices once the software support ends.
That link is dead for me. I wonder what constitutes "removable". I'd honestly be fine if it still required a spludger, but it required them to make it easily accessable and not loaded down with glue once you're in. And make OEM batteries available for sale.
i would be fine if it needed some tool to stay water tight or whatever atleast make it easily exchangeable doesnt need to be the old removeable plastic backs.
About bloody time! Devices these days are so far technically advanced, no need to upgrade every 2 years. I can hold onto a phone for easily 3-5 years. Especially with hot swap batteries!
Really hoping this happens. I want to be able to replace the battery on my phone after a year because the performance on the battery degraded by nearly half.
That being said, I'm also willing to bet some time shortly after this goes into affect, the cost of mobile service (at least in the US) will go up another $10/$15 a month, and phones will increase in cost by another $100-$200. Not because materials cost more, or designs change. But to preemptively screw people over.
I dunno if the mobile costs will increase since the manufacturers and cellular ISPs are separate companies. Verizon and Tmobile probably don't make any money off phone sales. It's more about the monthly service. People keeping their phones longer might even mean more revenue since people often jump ship with a free upgrade offer.
I'm curious to see what this will mean for phone designs & dust/waterproof ratings. Either way, it only takes effect in 2027 so that should give some time for innovation rather than falling back on plastic clamshells of yore.
Samsung and Sony have been able to waterproof phones with removeable batteries in the past. Don't let Apple's complaints fool you into thinking it can't be done, it's just an excuse for planned obsolescence.
Same with Fairphone. They're specifically made to be repairable, and the Fairphone 4 is supposed to be water resistant. Too bad the specs aren't great.
Yeah gaskets have existed for a hundred and fifty years or more so it won't take great feats of engineering to solve this issue. I personally don't care if my phone is waterproof or not since it's ingrained in me not to get them wet from years of using electronics prior to waterproofing being common. Maybe adding a removable back will mean the end of camera bumps too.
The waterproofing has been solved, but the real issue is that device size and/or battery capacity is going to be affected. And with the resiliency of modern batteries, you're making design sacrifices for something that won't affect most users.
Sure, it was nice being able to swap a fresh battery in on the fly. But these days you can also just get a decent power bank for less money than a proprietary battery pack.
A middle ground would end up being better for everybody. Keep the batteries as they are now, but make the phones a bit easier to open (and use fasteners instead of adhesives).
I might be in the minority here, but I feel this is actually a step back.
In the 5 years I've had my phone, there have been two times I've ever really needed to pull the battery, and still the hard reset sequence still eventually worked in both cases.
Anyone remember how some phones had issues with the battery door becoming somewhat loose over time, causing any slight bump to turn the phone off? Many have already commented on how they explode into multiple pieces when dropped. Traditionally the battery covers are incredibly flimsy plastic, even on flagship devices (cough Samsung). Waterproofing is a common concern too, however it actually can be done with a removable battery (e.g. Galaxy S5).
What really needed to be addressed here was how cumbersome it is to get into these devices to replace the battery, and how often people are price gouged to replace them. I believe this could have been better written to allow for either a removable battery, or a standardized and affordable built-in battery replacement process.
This will come into play at roughly the same time that solid state batteries will make battery replacement mostly irrelevant. We'll see some terrible designs to accommodate battery replacements that, for the most part, won't be used.
I'll believe that once I see it..
We have been told the era of next gen batteries is just around the corner every year since the iPhone came out now.
We're still using some version of lithium based tech in most applications where power density is important (phones, laptops, cars, etc.)
What're the odds this will carry over to the US out of convenience? I'd love for the batteries in phones to become more repairable over here, and I hope that companies would simply make all phones repairable from here on out to make things easier on themselves, but do you think they would, from now on, make two separate iPhones that have repairable batteries (EU) and non-repairable batteries (US & everywhere else)?
How is it a loss for you in any way? Just because the battery can be replaced more easily doesn't mean you have to replace it if you're at 89% after 5 years. I use my phone a lot and burn through batteries in 18-24 months. This shouldn't have any effect on people who only have light usage like you but benefit the rest of us tremendously.
It'd be like only driving 1,000 miles a year and saying there's no need to make oil changes easier to accomplish. Some of use have to change it orders of magnitude more frequently than you and would appreciate not having to disassemble the whole front of our cars to do it.
Replaceable battery means extra plastic,extra size, and reduced design parameters because the design has to be around the battery and it’s ability to be replaced using connectors. Look at what blackberry devices looked like. Battery and OS tech got a little better, but they used the same batteries for a long amount of time. I’m not saying that we’ll have blackberry devices again, I’m saying that things like connectors, latches, and the extra size of a battery that’s designed to be held all adds up to extra space being used.
My usage is probably above average. Probably closer to your average fediverse/redditor. I’m far from a “light user”.
That being said, your average user doesn’t burn through batteries like you do. Maybe you should be pressuring the market to build your phone instead of forcing everyone that has no need for a replaceable battery to put up with the deficiencies of that form factor?
I guess what I’m getting at is that there are two valid opinions on this matter. On one side, people want to replace batteries, on the other, people don’t care about the battery.
The government is stepping in on the issue for some reason. This irks me. If there was a market for it, it would exist.
This isn’t about a monopoly or even a significant environmental impact like aerosol spray in the 80s, or leaded gas of the 70’s. Right to repair? Yeah I agree. Specific charge port? Hmm, I understand the argument but politicians shouldn’t decide it. Required replaceable batteries? Hold up, aren’t their bigger issues that need to be addressed?
And yeah your dad remembers when his phone would last two weeks on the dash of his truck that he parked it the sun every day. Those were different times, and he should know those phones still exist if he really wants it, but no one does.
You keep talking about the market as if consumers get a vote in what Apple or Samsung build next year and not the other way around. If replaceable batteries weren't desirable, they wouldn't have been standard for the first 33 years of existence of cellphones. It wasn't until the last few years when the market got stagnant that manufacturers turned to cutting features left and right in order to cut costs and increase profit.
The only phones manufacturers offer with replaceable batteries are still using the same hardware that was around when replaceable batteries were still the norm. There was never a time were you could get a Note 8 with a replaceable battery or a Note 8 with a sealed case -- a true choice that one could then use to make informed statements like "the market decided". Saying the "market decided" when every major manufacturer removed them within a single generation leaving people with little to no alternative isn't the market deciding, it's manufacturers deciding.
Because you are an outlier when it comes to most people's experience of battery life in their phones.
The recycling scheme is a good idea too, we should do both.
Reducing is just as important as recycling. And reducing the amount of people buying new phones because their battery dies is a win.
Also there are these well-used battery recycling boxes in plenty shops where I'm from. If people could remove their phone battery, they might still throw away their phone, as there's not as obvious, easy and visible a recycling system for those yet, but perhaps some might at least take out the battery first and chuck it in the recycling bin next time they go to shop.
Opposite boat. My perfectly good device gets replaced after about 4 years because it struggles to hold a charge. I don't give a shit about iterative phone specs, and I say that as a tech enthusiast.
I agree, I think this is a miss. This will just mean more batteries will be manufactured. Most people will replace the device before the battery performance degrades.
Unless the battery is a universal/interchangable model this will increase waste as the manufacturer will have to make replacements available per model.
People will also perhaps then buy replacement batteries when handing down/selling devices, where they would have just have managed with degraded performance in the past.
Typically, replacement parts are only manufactured during the lifetime of the device. Because of that, I don't think that the replacement batteries would contribute significantly to waste.
People will also perhaps then buy replacement batteries when handing down/selling devices, where they would have just have managed with degraded performance in the past.
Most of the enviromental impacts are from mining and disposal, or lack of recycling. I looked it up and there is a 90% recovery rate for the minerals in the batteries alone if done properly.
Maybe asking manufacturers to make more batteries per model isn't a good answer, it has an additional cost of resources per model/battery and most people do not dispose of batteries correctly anyway and just dump them in the trash. It might be better enviromentally to offer real incentives to manufacturers, retailers and people to return their phones and recycle,reproccess the existing components.
I worked in enterprise IT support for 10 years and battery degredation/failure in laptops and mobile devices was not that much of an issue. Waste electrical and electronic equipment however, who knows how much is actually recycled properly, even most house hold batteries are thrown in the trash.
Phones were designed with non-removable batteries for a reason. It's not just to screw w/ the customer and make them pay someone to replace their phone battery. It's to aid in water resistance and to help with a smaller form factor. This will lead to nothing good. And I'm sure it will carry over to other countries as well as I'm sure a lot of phone manufacturers won't want to make special models JUST for the EU.
Just another example of the EU imposing nonsense regulations that will screw over the rest of the world, like their stupid cookie popup nonsense.
if you see a cookie popup, it's because the website operator decided to use third-party tracking cookies on their site; they could have easily spared their users the banner by using privacy-friendly analytics, or no analytics instead. blaming the EU for inconveniencing users with these warnings is doing free PR for the worst parts of the advertising industry.
Honestly, with Apple making it incredibly fucking hard to take out their batteries with excessive amounts of glue, I'm okay with this.
Do they not have the tabs you can pull out anymore?
They do, but they're incredibly prone to breaking when you pull and sometimes they're just hard as shit to grip so you have to use a screwdriver to twist and pull.
I don't think I need to explain why that's so dangerous.
As someone who has changed hundreds of iphone batteries, the adhesive sucks. At least they changed to a different adhesive around iphone 8 because alcohol does wonders on it. I don't even attempt to pull the tabs on those anymore.
May I ask how you do that? Do you just...douse the battery in alcohol? There isn't much of a gap between the adhesive and the battery in my experience, so it just sits inside the chasis and rolls around. I haven't had any luck with that but I'm probably doing it wrong.
I drizzle some in the corner and then use a sturdy tool to gently pry up on the battery to allow the alcohol to get deeper under. Since the adhesive patches are small to fit around the wireless charging coil, it doesn't take much. Once you get one side of the battery loose the other will easily come with it, especially if the alcohol got to them.
Uhhhhh
Don't use a screwdriver. Use a plastic card if at all possible. I can't say I've repaired any iPhones so maybe you can't fit something like that in, but I've done plenty of Macbooks and label remover w/ plastic card = battery out in no time, with no fire.
If you can't use a card, use a plastic spudger, like the one you get with iFixit toolkits.
Fingers crossed that this will be implemented well, im tired of having sleek electronics be irrelevant in 2 years when the silicon could go for 5 or six
The silicon could go on for decades if both the modem and processor were fully documented hardware that the community can access and support in the Linux kernel.
I can run a secure and current form of Linux on 30+ year old hardware if I want to, because the hardware documentation was expected by everyone at the time even if some end users were oblivious to what this meant. The whole reason google pushes Android is because they provide a base Linux kernel that hardware manufacturers can easily slip their proprietary junk into without requiring them to add the kind of open source code needed for mainline kernel support by the community. This is the mechanism that depreciates your device. It is totally artificial and an end user exploitation by design.
It's usually not silicon on the PCB that fails, but the other electronic components (usually the capacitors) that fails first, and since they are surface mounted devices it's really difficult to solder them by hand.
Nice, good to know! And you were awesome in the Suicide Squad series
Thank you! Go see "Barbie" in theater too!
There are no electrolytics in phones, and most newer phones don't even have tantalums. So long as there are no flexing stresses induced, which is nearly impossible with the way phones are constructed now, the all MLC capacitors construction has the potential to outlast any PC motherboard or laptop by a large margin.
The most critical issue is board connectors and moisture ingress. The USB-C connector or any other high pin density micro sized connector with a tiny pin pitch, and large electrical potential will fail from charge cycling and a resistance forming between pins. USB-C is particularly bad because reversing the connector doubles the number of pins on the board in a ridiculous amount of space. Just using a standard USB-C connector when ordering a prototype to be fabed at any common board house will double the price. The USB-C pin pitch is too tight for the most common fab process resolution.
The pin pitch only matters for high power application to prevent arcing, and that can also be resolved through the most modern USB-PD standard (See: USB-PD Extended Power Range, which can support up to 240w), and the electrical adjustment you have to make are all on the device side.
I don't know about the resistance forming between the pins, for low cycle applications the cheapest gold flash plating would easily last 10K plug cycles, and accounting for corrosion from hand sweat/oil/hand lotion, many companies favor going for thicker hard gold or platinum plating nowadays. (Rhodium is the absolute best, but it's just too expensive now to do at scale because they are used in catalytic converters for electric cars). USB-C lasts for many more cycles than the Micro-USB standards before it (You can read the 4 axis and wrenching test standards for mechanical testing on the USB spec) so I'm not sure what you are talking about here.
Lab tests rarely reflect the real world. I've seen several issues with Pixels that had an issue with PD failing due to moisture, corrosion, and a bridge developing at the connector.
Actually, no, the lab tests are standard with all products of all large companies, and they are usually conducted in extreme conditions, like 100% moisture at 80-90C oven for 48 hours and highly concentrated salt spray kind of extreme.
You bring up the example of Google Pixel, yeah, because it's Google, they are software people who think they can just cheap out on hardware and save a couple of cents by making it up in software. Look at the Nexus 5X and 6P, both devices had an absurd amount of quality control issues compared to the other products made by the manufacturers, and the only factor in common between them is Google.
Things change with time. The Pixel is now the most secure phone available due to its hardware encryption key verification system. It is the only phone that can run a verifiably secure bootloader and ROM on top of the same untrusted hardware situation found in all modern proprietary devices. Running a Pixel on Graphene OS is the most free and honestly liberating experience that has been available since the invention of capacitive touch technology made these handheld computers popular. The hardware build is on par with any similar device of the same price point, made in the same facilities as most devices.
Add to that requirements for longer software support. At least for security patches.
Hooray! Younger generations will finally be able to experience the joy of dropping their phone and having to pick up three to four different pieces! /s
(I'm all for this change, by the way)
Oh I remember that with Nokias. It's like shock absorbing for cars lol.
I was 12, I think, when I got my first phone. A Nokia. I was mortified the first time it happened. Then clack-clack-clack I was taught to put it together again.
Happened many more times afterwards.
I was around the same age. :) I still have the old Nokias. What a time that was, with Symbian being an OS.
I was under the impression this is just stopping companies gluing batteries so the phones are repairable.
Are we going back to nokia style batteries?
lego phone best phone
Phones are getting more expensive so people are holding on to them longer, so it's a nice quality of life improvement to remove the barriers to battery replacement so less people have to go down to a phone repair store to get it changed. The more of a hassle battery replacement is seen the more likely people are to just upgrade and create e-waste.
The problem here is that in order for most people to be able to replace the battery themselves safely they need to be really idiot proof. We’d need to return to back covers with latches or big screws and batteries in cases and contacts. This shit is bulky, heavy and hardly waterproof.
New iPhones use lipo pouch with a ZIF connector straight to the motherboard with a “pull to release” adhesive strip hidden under a panel with a single use sticky seal and two small screws. There is no black magic in replacing the battery yourself and the solution is small, lightweight and waterproof. However most people wouldn’t even know which way to turn the screws to loosen them and probably wouldn’t be bothered by throwing the phone away and getting the one with a better camera AI and more emojis.
Nah, the og motorola defy had removable battery, ip67 rating, expandable storage, and a headphone jack. It was a tiny phone and it was brilliant.
my first smartphone was an lg optimus s. that thing saw more toilet time than my butt. i lost track of how many times i dropped it in the toilet. it went in a lake a few times, also. it was a beast
@Know_not_Scotty_does @riodoro1 for some reason when I was 16 I really wanted the Defy Mini (XT320)
Though it wasn't ever cheap enough for my allowance 🤣 probably for the best, my first android smartphone came a couple years later in the Vodafone Smart 4 Turbo. (snapdragon 410 version)
They were great little phones. I miss that form factor so much. The closest recent ones were the xperia z3 and z5 compacts they were about perfect but did not have removable battery. Then sony ditched that form for their 21:9 shapes and the price went through the roof.
@riodoro1 @NightOwl I dunno, if you compare capacities of say, iPhone 14 Pro (12.38Wh) to Fairphone 4 (15.03Wh) and then the product dimensions of the two. There's not a huge amount in it. Adding the 14 Pro Max (16.68Wh) for additional comparisons.
The Fairphone is 2.6mm thicker than the iPhones. (Yes the screen bezels are chonk too lol) But the fairphone is also making allowance to make every single component swappable, and has an IPS display (switching to OLED would save 1+ millimeter)
@riodoro1 @NightOwl
The hard part with iPhones isn't the battery side of the equation here, it's Magsafe (which is great imo) While regular QI charging is fairly lowkey, I could see the extra tech required inside the phone for that being prohibitive in terms of spatial management.
Yeah, I wish there was some advancements made when it came to trying to create swappable battery devices that retain water proofing. That area has just stalled since expensive disposable tech is more lucrative. Average person should just get a new one like you said as long as the process is still more difficult than changing a light bulb.
If nothing else, regulations like the one described in here will do just that. So far the tech giants haven't had any incentive to design sleek, waterproof devices with replaceable batteries. But you've gotta believe that if they're required to have replaceable batteries, they're not going to say "OK, back to chonky non-waterproof devices for us!". They're going to spend some of their R&D budgets to innovate ways that makes it more realistic to do all three.
The original Moto Defy got it right the first time with ip67 rated, removable battery, expandable storage, and a headphone jack. The next major improvement came with the xperia z(or z3) and they got waterproof charge ports and headphone jacks (no port plug required) but ditched the removable battery. Every other phone since seems to have stripped away some useful feature since. The new defy 2 is going to have satelite messaging but is huge and no removabpe battery or headphone jack iirc.
[edit: deleted, echo chamber here. Android good, Apple bad. Moving on and blocking this community, can't have a reasonable conversation, just like reddit I guess].
How is this an Android vs Apple thing? Most of the major manufacturers are making devices with the battery sealed in; they'll all have to innovate ways of making them removable.
The difference is that most of the people isn't expected to own a mechanical watch, but having a smartphone is pretty much expected. You cannot treat a basic commodity as if it were a luxury item.
[edit: deleted, echo chamber here]
People disagreeing with you isn't what an echo chamber is.
I actually love all these regulations on smartphones (mainly by the EU), like the recent USB-C standard. That one in particular makes it so much easier to share chargers around the house!
As a USA citizen, thanks EU for making our cellphone companies not be dick's.
I mean... Sure, but we've had USB-C as de facto standard for many years now. When was the last time you saw a micro USB phone?
USB-C is standard for Android devices, but Apple devices still use lightning.
I know, but the person I was replying to made it sound like EU regulation is to thank for Android devices having USB-C
I don't want to brag but my 5 yo phone is micro USB. B)
Couldn't agree more, two years ago I was gifted a small wireless speaker which works fine and everything but I sometimes even forget to charge it because its cable is a 15cm short USB-A to Micro-USB one which somehow is the only Micro-USB cable I have left at home as I didn't have any other device with that port in years and I had thrown away a few cables when I last moved. Now whenever I am looking for a new electronic device USB-C is one of the first things I check and it's a deal breaker for me.
Excellent! Batteries in modern phones are surprisingly definitely removable and replaceable. I've done it multiple times. However, the unfriendly barrier to entry is glue and clips that require careful prying with spugers. It's quite clear manufacturers are happy blocking you getting in; plenty people just buy new phones when the battery gets too old.
Worst was when the batteries were glued to the screen so you could break the entire phone apart trying to change it yourself.
See Pebble Classic
Man I loved that phone. WebOS felt so ahead of its time. Unfortunate hit to repairability though
I loved my Palm Pre. I would still switch back to a modern WebOS device if it was a thing lol
spudger
If this goes through, I think it would be really good news. Battery failure is one of the leading things that force people to replace their smartphones, and having them be replaceable would go a long way towards making smartphones last longer.
If the manufacturer wants to force you to upgrade they still can... they can stop making the battery that works with your phone model (and notch them to make sure they can't fit).
Back in the day there were some manufacturers that made batteries that worked with several of their models, Nokia was one of them, but not all of them did.
Even Nokia had a deprecation cycle for battery models and when that happened you were stuck buying crappy Chinese copies.
It's the reason I've had to get my last two phones.
But they are replaceable in that sense. You can take it back the the manufacturer or to one of those independent phone stores and they’ll swap out a battery for you.
I don’t think a user swappable battery is actually a feature most users need. Not when smartphones get over a day out of a charge, you can charge at home, work or in a car, and external batteries exist.
That's where I have to disagree. Perhaps in your country you have lots of OEM repair stores but where I live we have none. Only 3rd party guys who are totally independent.
I had a LG V30 in mint condition but the battery was done. No one has that battery and no one is interested in getting it because LG sold so few devices here. You can't even find cases for most phones, only Samsung phones or iPhone's.
So I had to get a new phone.
This is very common in most of the world, especially the Developing countries.
Not to mention, 3rd parties can make a mess at times, and then good luck obliging them to make up for it...
I don’t doubt they didn’t have one in stock but I have trouble believing they wouldn’t order one for you or swap it if you brought it in yourself. You can buy one online and have it delivered anywhere in the world in days for $30.
What phone are you using? Both apple and Samsung have made their devices borderline impossible to swap the battery out. They will then charge you an arm and a leg for sometime that used to be an easy swap.
In my country Apple will swap the battery for you for $160Aud on their latest phones that cost Aud1800+. Older models are even cheaper. That’s not an arm and a leg when the battery itself will be over $100aud and you get full warranty coverage out of it.
https://support.apple.com/en-au/iphone/repair/battery-replacement
Do y'all remember the days when you dropped your phone and it exploded into 3 or 4 pieces? 🤣 Those were the good days.
Three. Battery, cover and the rest. Weirdly, no damage to the plastic display. How? I guess it was the
weatherbezelAnd when you scratched up the back you bought a new one for $12. No $200 glass or machined aluminum cases that we put $35 covers on just to protect them from every day use.
Well, it was plastic. Pretty hard to crack plastic like glass
But it could get scratched
Three or more. My Nokia 3310 exploded into five pieces. Front plate, keypad rubber thingy, phone, battery and battery cover.
Huh, totally forgot about Nokias bursting into the rubber keypad and the front plate too!
right to repair LETS GOOO
This is actually pretty crazy. Wonder how much it'll affect the overall design of modern smartphones. Will we witness the return of flagships with plastic back covers?
God i hope so. I miss being able to just pop the back off and change out my battery. It was great for sd and sim card slots too. I am quite excited for this
I wouldn't get too excited. I purchased a galaxy xcover 6 pro at launch. It is a recent device with a removeable plastic back cover with a gasket on it to preserve the IP68 rating, much in the same style as was popular up to the galaxy S5.
It seems like they forgot how to make that design work, because the first time I got caught in the rain it died an immediate and very hot death.
There are many other ways to carry out this design but they make the device a bit thicker which manufacturers are going to absolutely hate.
I couldn't care less if the back cover is plastic, it's just going inside a case anyway.
I would be comfortable to not use a case if it were plastic instead of glass.
That'd be awesome. I don't understand why people think a glass back is premium. Your premium glass back doesn't look so fancy when it's shattered into a million pieces or sandwiched behind a $10 phone case from China.
I've hung on to my Note 4 that I bought in 2014 (no longer use it daily) and it's still in one piece even though it never lived in a case. The plastic and aluminum body have plenty of battle scars but no cracks or functional damage. This MFer is almost 10 years old now on its 5th or 6th battery and still hanging in there despite its aged hardware. Now that is a premium design.
Yeesh I hope not.
I hope everything just becomes brushed aluminum ffs. I hate all these glass back phones
Phones only have glass backs to let wireless charging work so I don’t see aluminium making a come back any time soon.
Wireless charging isn't all that needed IMO. It's kind of old technology, my phone had it 10 years ago but none of my phones have had it since and I haven't really missed it because USB C charging is fast enough where wireless charging isn't really necessary.
It's also a gimmick afaic, it's not "Wireless" to me until it can charge contactless from a distance. This not-really-wireless wireless crap just moved the connection and made it magnetic instead of a plug. It's a glorified magsafe lmao
Hell yeah, dont understand why people are big about this while it just contact charging. It doesnt even charge phone fast nor efficient. Funny people keep bragging about waste while they use inefficient charging method which waste more energy.
It's inefficient, but it doesn't depend on a finnicky-ass charging port so that's nice.
When Apple goes USB-C on iPhones, I will unfortunately have to start using wireless charging, because USB-C ports are so annoying to clean compared to Lightning, I don't plan on having a functional one after a year of owning a USB-C phone.
I'd never want to get rid of wired charging, but wireless is a really nice option. I'm never able to find a good angle/spot for my phone in my car with a wire sticking out of it. Even with a dashboard mount, I would prefer the mount itself be powered to avoid having the cable just hanging with the pull of gravity on it.
Phone manufacturers: "Man this glass stuff likes to shatter a lot no matter what we try to make it stronger. I know, let's wrap the whole phone in it that'll solve everything!!!! 111"
Plastic also works, and is far more durable
I hate wireless charging too, though. It's inherently less efficient than wired, and you have less range of motion while charging. With a wire, I can still use my phone while it's plugged in. Wireless charging needs to go away imo.
Couldn't disagree more. Wireless charging with magnetic attachment like magsafe is a godsend for using my phone as a GPS. Just slap it onto it's magnetic wireless charger and go. Pull it off when done. A million times better than the old chargers that grip the phone and then also having to plug it in every time I need to drive somewhere, then undo it all when I get there.
Jesus Christ
I'm pretty glad to have both options. I take your point about using it while charging, but I also find myself having to jump up from my desk quite a bit, and it's nice to be able to just pick up my phone without first unplugging it. And I imagine all of that plugging and unplugging is reducing the durability of the port over time.
I really like the magnetic charging port plug adaptors for situations like that, but personally, if I'm jumping up and down from my desk at work or something and have my phone plugged in, I'll just leave it on my desk while I'm away. And if I'm not coming back to it for a good bit, the extra half second it takes to unplug my phone is more than worth the more efficient power transfer, imo.
But to each their own.
Each to their own indeed!
I interested in how your hate for wireless charging has anything to do with this thread?
We've had wireless charging in every single material back and it's absolutely wonderful QOL improvement.
It can't be done through metal backs, for what it's worth.
Even disregarding material, it is literally less efficient due to transmission losses, and it's only "wireless" in so far as you have a wireless dock to drop your phone on that is then attached to the wall just like a regular cable. The only thing it does is make it so you don't have to plug a cable in or use a magnetic cable attachment, but there isn't really any convenience gain over just having a charging cord especially if you have a super long charging cable for your stationary spots in the house.
WTF? Just don't use wireless charging ffs. What a dumb opinion.
Considering it comes at the cost of your phone being more fragile, the argument is not without merit
And the extra costs to support a feature I never use.
What does wireless charging has to do with phones being more fragile?
We had phones with glass backs before wireless charging was widespread (see sony xperia z phones from 8+ years ago for example)
The LG G5 solved the problem in 2016.
The LG G5 solved the problem in 2016.
Manufacturers may use it as a scapegoat, but it won't be the reason
This is awesome. Thank god for EU legislation that directly benefits me as an American consumer. Now I can microwave lithium ion batteries in peace!
I recently read an article how indeed American consumers benefit from European regulations as often it is easier to make one product that fits all the market than multiple variations of it.
It's called the Brussels effect and I love it.
another EU win!!!
i hope they mandate RCS for buyphones, the pear company has been holding back technical progress worldwide
What is RCS for buyphones?
RCS messaging for iPhones. Apple is basically never going to do it because iMessage is a big part of the iPhone lock in.
Here's hope to standardized USB-C connector charging will also happen outside of Europe for the rest of the world.
For companies like Apple, it would be cost more to keep two types of ports for different regions rather than upgrade the new devices all together. Been holding out with my broken iPhone 12 waiting for that sweet USB-C
I do miss being able to swap out a phone battery and this will certainly be a step in the right direction in terms ewaste and device longevity.
One thing that I wonder about is waterproofing or water resistance. Some phones are basically waterproof in shallow water. How achievable is this with a device with a trivial way to remove the battery?
The Galaxy S5 sport had a battery door and water resistance. They just used gaskets.
I had this and I loved it. But it was quite a poor waterproofing. It didn't work under much pressure and the gasket was super prone to losing it's seal. If it was ever dropped the back popped off. I use the waterproof feature of the modern sealed phones a lot and frankly these didn't cut it at all. Water-resistant at best.
Would still be dope to have the default be removable battery with gasket backs though.
This is my concern as well. Having a phone that is water and dust resistant is far more important to me than being able to replace the battery. I haven't had the need to replace a phone battery in probably more than a decade.
For my needs, I probably need enough basic water resistance to keep rain out or moisture from wet hands, etc, but it really would be nice to have full water proofing. When I lived in a more humid climate the moisture in the air was enough to kill an old phone of mine over time.
I’m one of the few who agree with you here. I have my phones for many years and simply take them to the Apple Store for a battery replacement when needed - takes a few minutes. I’m happy doing that for the size and durability benefits.
People make this argument and barely anyone really uses the waterprooding features of a phone
I imagine water resistance comes in handy quite often for many people. It has certainly saved me countless times. Not that I need to go swimming or deep sea diving with my phone, but I have dropped phones in water, been stuck in the rain, spilled a glass of water, etc. I ruined many phones before it became common.
I would rather have a cheap phone that does calling texting and web browsing well with a replacement battery door than water resistance.
You don't ever really 'need to use' the waterproof feature on your phone. It's more insurance for most people.
I have personally known dozens of people for who'm it's saved their phone including:
The above are things that happened both to people I know individually and also all of the above have happened to be at some point.
I don't necessarily like the lack of being able to swap out the batteries for a cheap replacement but I do like that waterproofing to a high degree should be a default feature for things like phones. It could be argued to get waterproof cases or keep it in a bag and that's all good and well (except the waterproof cases as they suck and break) but isn't it nice for the default to be that the device itself is waterproof if that was an option?
But removable batteries and waterproof are not mutually exclusive. It was already possible 10 years ago and still is. The current selection is limited, but this legislation will change that.
https://www.androidauthority.com/best-android-phones-removable-battery-697520/
Manufacturers have options to coat the boards in a rubber-like coating - this makes it much less likely to short out, if it gets wet. Like stated above, that with used in conjunction with gaskets, these devices are pretty darn watertight even with replaceable/removable batteries.
Water proofing is for more than just taking it underwater though. It's also for getting caught in the rain, leaving it on a bathroom counter while you shower, or accidentally dropping it in a puddle.
That's not waterproof though in the marketing world. That's water resistant. Waterproof means you can dump your phone in your toilet after you took a piss standing up drunk at the bar and pick it up piss covered and it will still work.
My cheap not-waterproof phone survives mild rain just fine, as does being in the bathroom while I shower, or being in my pocket under very heavy rain.
Waterproof means it can be submerged, but most technology meant for daily use have a fair bit of resilence baked in...
I agree that is isn't really necessary for most people, but I do know quite a few people who use it because they know the phone will be safe. My partner uses her phone in the pool all the time. I'm often dripping wet after coming in from surfing, even after drying off with a towel. It is nice to be able to check my phone without worrying I'm going to mess it up.
I'm not saying it is a feature every phone needs, but it is something that some people use. I'm all for replaceable batteries and would like to see them more available. They will improve the longevity of devices as long as they aren't damaged in other ways.
Hmm well I don't know the solution to this. The only phone I know of that was popular that had a removable battery and "waterproof" was the galaxy S5. It really wasn't waterproof though.
It was IP67 certified if the port cover was closed. We've come a long way with sealing USB ports over the last 10 years so I'm certain it could be done without needing a door now.
I worked in mobile phones at the time and many customers came back with damaged S5s because they were told it was waterproof and spilt a glass of water or some such and it ruined the phone. We saw the moisture strip on the battery activated more than a few times.
Makes sense. If the port cover was open even a bit, the microUSB port wasn't sealed against water at all and water goes everywhere. Modern phones wouldn't have that particular problem so we'd have to see how they'll handle replaceable batteries now.
I just assumed they had some hydrophobic setup figured out because not long after the sony Xperia Z waterproof marketing I saw phones without gaskets and coverings touting IPs.
Fairly certain Iphones are IP whatever and they have open ports.
You know, I really like my Essential Ph-1. It was a lovely little phone. I had the little 360 camera accessory that snapped on magentically and everything. It was so cool! Then, 1.5 seconds, dropped into water from which I grabbed it instantly, and it was done. No warranty coverage for dropping it in water, and zero waterproofing, and toasted phone. So, yes, more of us "use" waterproofing on our phones than you would think. The thing is that it didn't need to be this way. There were waterproof phones back before everything was glued glass slabs all the time. Galaxy S5 Sport as mentioned by @[email protected] above (and other "sport" edition phones). We have a lot of hygrophobic coatings and tech we didn't have in the day of the Galaxy S5 series. We can do better now, if manufacturers are forced to.
They can just seal the rest of the components exposing just a connection for the battery. There were water resistant phones before, the major reason they decided to make the battery unremovable was to make people buy new phones. Nobody wants to charge their phones multiple times a day.
Some "Sport" phones had this before everything was glued together, with gaskets and rubber port plugs (because the hygrophobic coatings used in ports now weren't available yet).
It worked really well on my Galaxy S5. IP67 and easy enough to replace the battery on without tools. They'd just have to switch out the back for something not glass probably on modern phones.
That is good to hear. Do they have some sort of rubber gasket inside?
That's exactly it, gasket around the inside but not where it would get damaged. It was a pretty slick solution.
It won't happen though. It'll be a kind of malicious compliance from the manufacturers: we'll incorporate replaceable batteries but we're not going to waterproof anything
You can have both https://youtu.be/Yn-R39-dtc0
Misleading title. Phones can still be glued. Waterproof phones still don't need to have a user replaceable battery (the battery needs to be replaceable but by professionals).
Do you have a reference for that? From all the documentation I've seen elsewhere, that's not true. There's no exclusion for waterproof devices, and everything has to be possible with tools a normal person can buy (you might need to go to a local hardware store, but no unique specialist expensive kit).
The full law is here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/docs_autres_institutions/commission_europeenne/com/2020/0798/COM_COM(2020)0798_EN.pdf. It only mentions 'water' 3 times and none of them relate to waterproof phones (they're talking about batteries of waterbourne transport & environmental impact of water use) so I don't know where that's coming from.
It's totally possible to make waterproof phones with removable batteries - Samsung did it with the Galaxy S5 (IP67 - 1 meter under water for 30 minutes) way back in 2014 and there's lots of other examples. It's just not quite as cheap as glueing everything together.
Thank you for linking the text. For anyone wondering, here is Ch. 2, Article 11 regarding portable battery replacement:
"if the batteries have a shorter lifetime than the device" sounds like it could be exploited though, well folks the processor can only last 2 years on these new phones because of (insert random corpo bullshit here)
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237_EN.html#title2
(a) appliances specifically designed to operate primarily in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion, and that are intended to be washable or rinseable;
(b) professional medical imaging and radiotherapy devices, as defined in Article 2, point (1), of Regulation (EU) 2017/745, and in-vitro diagnostic medical devices, as defined in Article 2, point (2), of Regulation (EU) 2017/746.
Thanks! That's interesting to see, looks like this is an amendment? I'm not totally sure how that bit of the legal process works here.
I'd be surprised if this is intended to apply to mobile phones though - very few phones are used primarily in an environment of water immersion. They're designed for incidental protection, but the regular day-to-day use case is pretty dry! I'd read that as intended for things like watersports & diving equipment.
It's not an amendment, this is the actual law as it is adopted. The other document was just the proposal.
They don't have to be primarily used in that environment, they have to be designed to be used in that environment. The way this is worded is extremely broad and can basically mean anything you want it to mean. All current waterproof smartphones could fall under this exemption.
I love the EU and regulations like this but it always makes me sad when they make them broad and open to interpretation because that means corporations will find ways to get away with whatever they want.
Honestly, I'd be surprised. Fighting the EU on technicalities when the intention here is so clear is going to be hard work! To even get close to a good case, they'd have to change all the marketing for the device to show it's clearly being intended as a primarily water-use product. The words "primarily" and "regularly" in there aren't just decorative, they'd really have to demonstrate that to make it stick! Seems to have more downside than just making the battery removable in the first place.
The full quote also has this bit:
Since real phones do already exist that are both waterproof and have removable batteries, I think it's very hard to plausibly say "it's impossible to design this in a way the user can safely remove the battery".
Of course, to know for sure we'll both just have to wait and see 😄
Do you have any examples other than the S5, because like zero people have given any, and many have pointed out the S5 failed at "water resistance" at very high rates.
Here's 106 phones with at least IPx6 (full immersion for 30 minutes) waterproofing and removable batteries: https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?sIPCerts=5,6&idBatRemovable=1
They are mostly fairly old, because manufacturers have stopped making batteries removable (which is exactly why they're legislating it). Some new though, and in fact Samsung's current ultra-resilient rugged edition phones all have removable batteries: https://www.samsung.com/us/business/mobile/phones/galaxy-xcover-pro/. It's clearly possible!
Even if this is the case, that's still pretty good. That means either it has to be waterproof for it to warrant being glued OR it has to have a removable battery. Forcing manufacturers to either improve the ingress rating on their phone or increase the usability and repairability. Still a good step no?
Oh yes I completely support this law but as usual it leaves too much wiggle room for companies to be scummy.
Galaxy S5 did it.
Any other examples though? Because the S5 didn't do it all that well.
You certainly can. Look up any flagship smartphone and you can see that they provide water resilience and they have a charging port.
Phones with battery covers can also be waterproof, it has been done before, we can still do it now. My Galaxy S5 was waterproof and it had a removable battery cover. That was almost 10 years ago, imagine what we can do now. USB ports are waterproof now and don't require a cover like they did on the S5.
Although this is obviously a step in the right direction it needs to be followed up with security updates, no point increasing the life of the hardware without doing the same for the software.
Making it illegal to lock bootloaders would make each device community-maintainable.
Yes! That would be the best. We should have access to our hardware. And just like most things you want to keep around for a long time (e.g. cars) you will have to tinker with it to keep it running smoothly into old age.
I hope you mean, always make it possible to unlock the bootloader offline (to not be dependent on them). There are good security reasons to have it locked by default.
Yes. No more of that unlock code nonsense. Even Fairphone has an online bootloader unlocking process. I hate it.
While it is certainly nice to have continued support, I think I'd disagree that forcing companies to maintain software on legacy/outdated hardware is something that should be legislated. I think that would greatly stifle innovation in a lot of cases.
I'd be a supporter of something like @[email protected]'s suggestion, though. If they are no longer able to support security updates, then they should open it up to be able to maintain it yourself/community-maintainable. Expecting a company to maintain support through continued development on a 10 or 20 year old device that in some cases may not even be physically able to handle the updates is a big ask.
I don't think the market has been very innovative over the last few years anyway, slow iterative upgrades that do not necessitate modern hardware for security. It's not like the latest phone attacks are thwarted by a macro and wide angle lens. The older phone are perfectly capable of handling further security updates.
If they want to sell phones they should be breaking new ground.
I mean, Apple does it for 10 years old devices and it's not stopping them from churning out phones every year
I'm not saying I think it would be a bad thing for support to continue. I just don't think it should be legally required. If a small company decided to develop and produce a device, knowing they'd have to perpetually support it, legally, makes it exponentially cumbersome to continue further development. Newer software may not be able to run on older hardware, meaning they'd have to develop and maintain multiple versions of any security fix. For Apple, it'd hardly be a problem (financially) to continue support.
On the other hand, I understand that this creates a situation where new phones keep being churned out that are hardly different hardware-wise. It'd be lame to stop supporting the older devices just to push people to buy another one (Apple). There's probably some middle ground to be found here.
At a minimum, stuff should be put in place to allow for people to update legacy hardware to be maintained by individuals.
This is very neat! I wonder how this is going to impact almost all phones these days having some sort of ingress protection. They glue the phones together to keep the water out, it would still be nice to have the option for water-resistant phones, but the manufacturers just gonna have to figure it out
Removable batteries existed in smart phones before. There are plenty of devices today, walkie talkies for example, that are fully waterproof and are battery swappable.
Manufacturers just want your money.
Well... most of those devices aren't thin boutique items. Something a lot of smartphone owners want.
But there were smartphones with removable covers. The Samsung Galaxy S5, for example, had both an IP67 rating, and a similarly thin profile to modern smartphones. (It also managed to fit wireless charging in if you had a special back).
Do owners actually want thin? I've never heard anyone brag about how thin their phone is. I'm almost positive the thin fetish only exists so companies have a nice easy number to advertise, like all the useless numbers they slap on processors and TVs.
Thinness enables large screens while keeping the device usable/ergonomic.
Holding a brick ain't exactly the same feeling.
Good, it's a small victory but one step closer to a society that doesn't create waste just to buy the next new shiny toy. Products should be build to last, be easily repairable and create as little waste as possible (which isn't possible in a system that demands unlimited growth over anything else). If we want to have a somewhat ok climate in the future, just focusing on electric vehicles (which are doing the whole subscription to access your hardware fully, not easily repairable bs as well) isn't gonna cut it.
It might lead to thicker phones, but battery and/or SW obsolescence are the main reasons I have been swapping phone in the last 10 years.
Thank you, Mr. EU
I've not read the actual legislation, but it sounds like you could be compliant with these rules as long as it's theoretically possible to replace the battery with a screwdriver - manufacturers wouldn't have to go as far as old-style swappable batteries that you just pull out and plug a new one in.
I own an older flagship Android phone that is almost as good as anything that currently exists on the market. It even has a capacity that outperforms every single new phone I've looked at. The only issue is that now, after about 4 years, the battery only lasts me about a day. If I can replace my battery, I'll end up likely keeping this phone for another two years. It's still in perfect physical condition.
You will then be glad to hear that now days most phones only last for a day or shorter on a single charge. So your phone is still good!
What phone do you have?
Same here. Fairphone 3 from first shipment, second battery, and I keep the old one around as a replacement on hikes. Way better then a power bank.
I also dunked my phone more than once in wash water and bathtubs (small children) and never had to do more than pull out the battery and spread the parts to dry for a day.
Wonder if phone manufacturers will fragment their offerings to satisfy EU requirements or if we'll all end up with removable batteries.
It will be a pretty major redesign of the chasis and body to accommodate a removable battery and the cover, so I think it would make little economical sense to maintain two designs for every phone sold here.
I’m wondering how ‘user replaceable’ is defined. Will we get backs that just pop off, or do they just need to be easier to replace? (No glue or proprietary tools required)
Could also be 4-6 small screws and a tiny sealing ring, to keep the water protection.
The general idea is, that people without experience have to be able to replace the battery on their own easily and without special equipment.
I am not sure, but I think either no tools required or a normal screwdriver should suffice.
@ClassyDave @Roman0 Let's hope that it doesn't happen.
Also it could create a black market for exported/imported European phones.
I can’t wait to hear the Apple marketing word for this feature. They’ll add some gimmick like the battery is held in with magnets and say “We call it MagPack and we think you’re going to love it.”
Just as long as it doesn't resemble what the poors would use. Yuck.
I recently bought an iPad as my first Apple device ever, and I keep laughing my ass out every time I decide to dig deeper into their weird locked in system. Like, with the next iOS update they should finally enable side loading apps because the EU is forcing them to, and while reading about it I came across lots of statements from them on how this will create a HUUUUUGE risk for the users and it's basically the end of the world. Guys just tell your users to not download weird shit and that's about it. It's not like iPhones are gonna magically download spyware by themselves.
It’s true that sideloading adds risk but it’s a risk that all desktop and laptop computers AND android devices AND jail token iPhones have lived with since the beginning of time. Speaking of that, Apple are even trying to limit sideloading on Macs. Sometimes MacOS will block you from installing software you downloaded from the web, complaining of “unknown developer.” There is a MacOS App Store too and they want you using only that. You can still dig through settings to override this but for how much longer?
Now make SD cards mandatory and you've got something really good.
One of the few areas where I favor a "One-world" standard.
AA it is!
Good. I haven't been able to replace a battery since my S4.
W move for the EU. Very glad they're mandating stuff that should have been common place to begin with (ex. USB C on iPhones).
Holy fuck this is insane. EU is doing something right (still salty about them wanting encryption keys but provisions to improve repair of hardware is big)
This i fucking loved the times around Samsung S4 , i literarily could just go and buy a replacement battery on amazon even with 200 MAH more snap the old one out and new one in BAM better battery.
Exchanging battery for my Poco x3 pro is complicated and would cost me atleast 70-80€ thats literarily half the device lol
Exactly! How I wish the US and Canada would implement such rules too, but I know it's not going to happen
Comes up to if its cheaper for them to produce all phones with removeable batterys.
i bet it is , and they will race to use it as selling point" LOOK how revolutionary we are Removeable battery PLS BUY US "
Cant wait for the ads for the next Iphone playing it out like its the best thing in 1000 years and that its entirely new lol
I don't actually care about their marketing that much, but removable batteries on mobiles is the right direction moving forward. Batteries are literally the only reason why I can't use a 5 year old mobile
Ye same my poco x3 pro that is coming close to 2 years kinda needs soon one, it's slower charging and the battery is at 83-79% health it could use a new one but man... Swapping it is so complicated in it and paying someone is like 50% of the device.
I'm still rocking my S8!
This is awesome! I hope the EU Compliant phones come overseas too!
My last phone bit the dust because I made the mistake of taking it apart to repair it. It became a gluey piece of garbage. If I want it be waterproof I'll stick it in a sandwich bag. Or maybe the manufacturer can use the novel tech of gaskets.
Wow ; thats pretty amazing - now I have even more respect for them thinking ahead and going after the USB-C ports first... this could force manufacturers to give us a better product - I'll be watching this.
No it doesn't. you have have IP68 and a removable battery. What's not as easy it making them paper-thin as the battery needs to have structural integrity of its own.
My old Galaxy S5 was water resistant (IP67, 30min/1 metre submerged)
The rear cover had a gasket to prevent water entering the motherboard, micro sd, battery, sim etc.
I used a hammy down s5 for a few years. Just had to replace the battery and it was good to go. It eventually degraded and became really really slow. Good phone.
I've never understood the whole waterproof thing. I've never been in an instance where my phone was in any danger of getting wet. I get float trips and stuff but that seems like an uncommon case and even then there are ways to waterproof a phone temporarily.
You don’t use your phone on the bathroom or the kitchen? It never rains where you live? You never keep your phone in your pocket next to a sweaty leg?
I want a phone that can survive minor issues. I don’t want a phone that will die because it slipped into the sink while washing my hands or something like that. A degree of being waterproof does that.
I don't think a phone needs to be 100% waterproof to 50 metres, but some amount of water-resistance is just good product design. Companies should not be encouraging people to dunk their phones in water, I think IP ratings sadly encourage this as well as some of the advertising around their water resistance claims.
But having some amount of water resistance built into electronics helps reduce e-waste because accidents do happen. For more serious water activities people should be buying waterproof bags for their electronics.
This. If you really want to take your phone on your extreme surfing adventure, just put it in a waterproof case!
People mount phones to bike handlebars for navigation. Then it starts raining.
That seems like an edge case though.
Motorola Defy was waterproof with removable battery. A small switch locked the cover in place with a rubber gasket. This was over 10 years ago.
LET'S GOOOOO
Holy. 👍
I wonder how thick phones will be because of this, what about phones with dual-cell battery? I know some of them do this for faster charging speed.
There were 8mm(0.31in) thick phones with removable batteries 5-6 years ago(phones like the Samsung J series).
iphone 14(fall 2022) does not feature a removable battery and is 7.8mm(0.309in).
Meaning you literally wont be able to tell the difference.
In fact, there were 7.5mm ones with a replacable battery a few years ago.
Add to this, most people will put on a big honkin' rubber case which increases its size dramatically and the battery size issue will become irrelevant!
I had a cubot power which had an "non-removeable" battery. The running time was about two days with medium usage. I thought probably they packed every remaining space with battery which explains a non removeable one.
So I broke it a few weeks ago and decided to check out the battery. Turns out it was just that they glued the shit out of the backplate (which was more work to get of than the screen which glue already gave up) and put a normal sized battery in wich had no quick connector attached, but one of those flimsy wires that fall apart if you look at them wrong. The same shit apple introduced in their ipods.
There is and never was any reason for "non removeable batteries" other than prohibiting the user from repairing the most common failure point of a phone!
Absolutely nothing will change You can already swap the battery very easily, once you win the fight with the glue. Granted, most of the recent phones now allows removing said glue more or less easily, too. The only problem i can see are the IP ratings, as the backplate would need to be swappable
I don't think the IP ratings are gonna be that much worse.
The galaxy s5 had IP67 with a removable battery back in 2014.
The question is, easily removable by the user or easily removable by a specialist with the right tools?
I'm assuming somewhere in the middle leaning more toward easily user replaceable. The current crop of batteries are designed to be replaced by specialists with the right tools and the EU voted to depart from that.
Good! I loved having removable batteries, especially while traveling. Just carry a charged battery and hotswap them instead of having to find a plug to camp by for 30-60 minutes
So many solid wins for EU, so exciting! If it means things become much easier then having to remove a bunch of components just to get to the battery to replace it. I am in.
I honestly don't have too many issues removing the back with a spuger and heat... Provided they make it so you can replace it just as well. The majority of the reasons people dispose of smart phones and buy a new phone is due to the battery degrading. It costs a lot just to replace it. Swappable batteries increases the longevity of a phone, means I can daily drive my phone for longer. Which is what I want... My pixel 5a battery is already degrading pretty badly. I like my phone but I feel disappointed I didn't get more usage out of it.
I saw how to replace it, and to do so it means removing a lot of components including the screen... And even though they sell replacement parts including screens they do not for whatever reason sell 5a screens to the UK it honestly baffles me...
Google doing some things for right to repair but much like other companies. It does feel like they are dragging their feet a little bit.
The EU is the new USA when it comes to consumer protections.
When was the USA leading the way in consumer protections?
Basically before the EU was a thing.
Another win for Europe
Finally! Now to also force phonemakers to universally provide bootloader unlocks so we can put our own ROMs on our devices once the software support ends.
huge W
That link is dead for me. I wonder what constitutes "removable". I'd honestly be fine if it still required a spludger, but it required them to make it easily accessable and not loaded down with glue once you're in. And make OEM batteries available for sale.
i would be fine if it needed some tool to stay water tight or whatever atleast make it easily exchangeable doesnt need to be the old removeable plastic backs.
I hope this passes, but I wonder how it will get watered down, where the loopholes are.
About bloody time! Devices these days are so far technically advanced, no need to upgrade every 2 years. I can hold onto a phone for easily 3-5 years. Especially with hot swap batteries!
Really hoping this happens. I want to be able to replace the battery on my phone after a year because the performance on the battery degraded by nearly half.
That being said, I'm also willing to bet some time shortly after this goes into affect, the cost of mobile service (at least in the US) will go up another $10/$15 a month, and phones will increase in cost by another $100-$200. Not because materials cost more, or designs change. But to preemptively screw people over.
One year nearly half ? wtf , even my 24/7 power used phone lost approx only 17% on battery health and its a Poco x3 pro
Probably keeps it on 100% for extended periods of time.
Mine charges very often over night, but I'll try to never let it drop below 20% ( that's the worst situation for a battery)
Above 80% also isn't ideal but not as bad as sub 20%
I dunno if the mobile costs will increase since the manufacturers and cellular ISPs are separate companies. Verizon and Tmobile probably don't make any money off phone sales. It's more about the monthly service. People keeping their phones longer might even mean more revenue since people often jump ship with a free upgrade offer.
thank you EU!
I love reading such headlines, really glad there's an entity that can enforce such rules on manufacturers, at least when they're looking after us
I'm curious to see what this will mean for phone designs & dust/waterproof ratings. Either way, it only takes effect in 2027 so that should give some time for innovation rather than falling back on plastic clamshells of yore.
Samsung and Sony have been able to waterproof phones with removeable batteries in the past. Don't let Apple's complaints fool you into thinking it can't be done, it's just an excuse for planned obsolescence.
Same with Fairphone. They're specifically made to be repairable, and the Fairphone 4 is supposed to be water resistant. Too bad the specs aren't great.
Yeah gaskets have existed for a hundred and fifty years or more so it won't take great feats of engineering to solve this issue. I personally don't care if my phone is waterproof or not since it's ingrained in me not to get them wet from years of using electronics prior to waterproofing being common. Maybe adding a removable back will mean the end of camera bumps too.
The waterproofing has been solved, but the real issue is that device size and/or battery capacity is going to be affected. And with the resiliency of modern batteries, you're making design sacrifices for something that won't affect most users.
Sure, it was nice being able to swap a fresh battery in on the fly. But these days you can also just get a decent power bank for less money than a proprietary battery pack.
A middle ground would end up being better for everybody. Keep the batteries as they are now, but make the phones a bit easier to open (and use fasteners instead of adhesives).
I might be in the minority here, but I feel this is actually a step back.
In the 5 years I've had my phone, there have been two times I've ever really needed to pull the battery, and still the hard reset sequence still eventually worked in both cases.
Anyone remember how some phones had issues with the battery door becoming somewhat loose over time, causing any slight bump to turn the phone off? Many have already commented on how they explode into multiple pieces when dropped. Traditionally the battery covers are incredibly flimsy plastic, even on flagship devices (cough Samsung). Waterproofing is a common concern too, however it actually can be done with a removable battery (e.g. Galaxy S5).
What really needed to be addressed here was how cumbersome it is to get into these devices to replace the battery, and how often people are price gouged to replace them. I believe this could have been better written to allow for either a removable battery, or a standardized and affordable built-in battery replacement process.
This will come into play at roughly the same time that solid state batteries will make battery replacement mostly irrelevant. We'll see some terrible designs to accommodate battery replacements that, for the most part, won't be used.
I'll believe that once I see it.. We have been told the era of next gen batteries is just around the corner every year since the iPhone came out now. We're still using some version of lithium based tech in most applications where power density is important (phones, laptops, cars, etc.)
Amen! Now let's see how Apple gets around that one too. :)
This is great.
Or - your cellphone will only last 2 months before you have to buy another one.
Finally! The extra few millimetres of thickness don't matter, now it is easier to keep a phone for longer.
What're the odds this will carry over to the US out of convenience? I'd love for the batteries in phones to become more repairable over here, and I hope that companies would simply make all phones repairable from here on out to make things easier on themselves, but do you think they would, from now on, make two separate iPhones that have repairable batteries (EU) and non-repairable batteries (US & everywhere else)?
Holy shit! This is amazing
How is this a win? My non-Android device is at 89% health after 5 years. I’m not going to replace the battery, I’m going to replace the device.
I’d prefer that we get paid $20 to recycle an old phone so that they actually get recycled.
How is it a loss for you in any way? Just because the battery can be replaced more easily doesn't mean you have to replace it if you're at 89% after 5 years. I use my phone a lot and burn through batteries in 18-24 months. This shouldn't have any effect on people who only have light usage like you but benefit the rest of us tremendously.
It'd be like only driving 1,000 miles a year and saying there's no need to make oil changes easier to accomplish. Some of use have to change it orders of magnitude more frequently than you and would appreciate not having to disassemble the whole front of our cars to do it.
Replaceable battery means extra plastic,extra size, and reduced design parameters because the design has to be around the battery and it’s ability to be replaced using connectors. Look at what blackberry devices looked like. Battery and OS tech got a little better, but they used the same batteries for a long amount of time. I’m not saying that we’ll have blackberry devices again, I’m saying that things like connectors, latches, and the extra size of a battery that’s designed to be held all adds up to extra space being used.
My usage is probably above average. Probably closer to your average fediverse/redditor. I’m far from a “light user”.
That being said, your average user doesn’t burn through batteries like you do. Maybe you should be pressuring the market to build your phone instead of forcing everyone that has no need for a replaceable battery to put up with the deficiencies of that form factor?
I guess what I’m getting at is that there are two valid opinions on this matter. On one side, people want to replace batteries, on the other, people don’t care about the battery.
The government is stepping in on the issue for some reason. This irks me. If there was a market for it, it would exist.
This isn’t about a monopoly or even a significant environmental impact like aerosol spray in the 80s, or leaded gas of the 70’s. Right to repair? Yeah I agree. Specific charge port? Hmm, I understand the argument but politicians shouldn’t decide it. Required replaceable batteries? Hold up, aren’t their bigger issues that need to be addressed?
And yeah your dad remembers when his phone would last two weeks on the dash of his truck that he parked it the sun every day. Those were different times, and he should know those phones still exist if he really wants it, but no one does.
You keep talking about the market as if consumers get a vote in what Apple or Samsung build next year and not the other way around. If replaceable batteries weren't desirable, they wouldn't have been standard for the first 33 years of existence of cellphones. It wasn't until the last few years when the market got stagnant that manufacturers turned to cutting features left and right in order to cut costs and increase profit.
The only phones manufacturers offer with replaceable batteries are still using the same hardware that was around when replaceable batteries were still the norm. There was never a time were you could get a Note 8 with a replaceable battery or a Note 8 with a sealed case -- a true choice that one could then use to make informed statements like "the market decided". Saying the "market decided" when every major manufacturer removed them within a single generation leaving people with little to no alternative isn't the market deciding, it's manufacturers deciding.
Because not everyone has the same anecdotal experience as you?
I manage around 200+ mobile devices and battery life isn’t an issue that comes up.
So probably work devices that sit idle for 8+ hours a day before being shut back off and thrown into a backpack overnight/weekend?
I wish. Most are their primary device for work and personal use.
How old are those mobile devices?
iPhone XR for myself, and most are 11-13. We regularly have to replace older devices as they reach EOL/EOS.
Because you are an outlier when it comes to most people's experience of battery life in their phones.
The recycling scheme is a good idea too, we should do both.
Reducing is just as important as recycling. And reducing the amount of people buying new phones because their battery dies is a win.
Also there are these well-used battery recycling boxes in plenty shops where I'm from. If people could remove their phone battery, they might still throw away their phone, as there's not as obvious, easy and visible a recycling system for those yet, but perhaps some might at least take out the battery first and chuck it in the recycling bin next time they go to shop.
Opposite boat. My perfectly good device gets replaced after about 4 years because it struggles to hold a charge. I don't give a shit about iterative phone specs, and I say that as a tech enthusiast.
And wht's stoping you from paying the 80 bucks for a battery swap? After 5 years, that seams like a very reasonable maintenance cost to me...
@Brkdncr @Roman0 Why not both?
Easily replaceable for those who burn through capacity through heavy use. Which would also make recycling easier funny enough.
And pushing to make recycling encouraged. These aren't opposing ideas.
I agree, I think this is a miss. This will just mean more batteries will be manufactured. Most people will replace the device before the battery performance degrades.
Unless the battery is a universal/interchangable model this will increase waste as the manufacturer will have to make replacements available per model.
People will also perhaps then buy replacement batteries when handing down/selling devices, where they would have just have managed with degraded performance in the past.
Sounds good but I don't know really.
Typically, replacement parts are only manufactured during the lifetime of the device. Because of that, I don't think that the replacement batteries would contribute significantly to waste.
What's the problem with this?
Most of the enviromental impacts are from mining and disposal, or lack of recycling. I looked it up and there is a 90% recovery rate for the minerals in the batteries alone if done properly.
Maybe asking manufacturers to make more batteries per model isn't a good answer, it has an additional cost of resources per model/battery and most people do not dispose of batteries correctly anyway and just dump them in the trash. It might be better enviromentally to offer real incentives to manufacturers, retailers and people to return their phones and recycle,reproccess the existing components.
I worked in enterprise IT support for 10 years and battery degredation/failure in laptops and mobile devices was not that much of an issue. Waste electrical and electronic equipment however, who knows how much is actually recycled properly, even most house hold batteries are thrown in the trash.
I'm finally happy! I hope that's the case.
Stupid plain simple, increase in weight.
EU votes to increase phone prices for swappable batteries. video says it's great. skip skip scroll
Phones were designed with non-removable batteries for a reason. It's not just to screw w/ the customer and make them pay someone to replace their phone battery. It's to aid in water resistance and to help with a smaller form factor. This will lead to nothing good. And I'm sure it will carry over to other countries as well as I'm sure a lot of phone manufacturers won't want to make special models JUST for the EU.
Just another example of the EU imposing nonsense regulations that will screw over the rest of the world, like their stupid cookie popup nonsense.
if you see a cookie popup, it's because the website operator decided to use third-party tracking cookies on their site; they could have easily spared their users the banner by using privacy-friendly analytics, or no analytics instead. blaming the EU for inconveniencing users with these warnings is doing free PR for the worst parts of the advertising industry.
Where's lemmy's /r/confidentlyincorrect
Ah the Reddit troll I've missed since I quit. Thank you, you made me feel at home.