Hey could we defederate with exploding-heads.com/
The instance seems to be mostly right wing trolls. I know defederating is unpopular but I don't think much is to be lost in this case and it can save the mods some headaches.
Edit: the response on exploding-heads.com to my reporting of transphobia. Courtesy of the "second in command"
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If you all think blocking a fascist server is going "too far" and you want to keep federating, then congratulations on becoming The Nazi Bar.
The "paradox" of tolerance is not some contradictory slippery slope. It is a fact of communities and must always be upheld. I hope our admin makes the correct choice.
Tolerance is a peace treaty, not a moral precept.
Defederating is a proportional response to a server with a top-level community dedicated to trans hate.
I think people need to remember that nobody owes one's instance federation
I'd recommend defederating from beehaw if your litmus is "views that end up harmful to trans people are promoted by the instance" as they have a lot of communities like that on there.
of course, people disagree as to what "harm to X" actually means hence the problem.
I'm curious if you have examples given that seems pretty against what I've seen of Beehaw so far.
Not saying you're wrong, it's just not something I've seen yet.
Take a look at this thread. I commented trying to encourage a healthy direction, but giving this guy proper actual scientific/medical info that would help him live a healthy life would almost certainly get you removed/banned from beehaw, and the rest of the comments are encouraging something that will harm this person long term.
This happens a lot in more "progressive" lgbtqia-style spaces, because a lot of their ideology is fundamentally something that can, will, and does harm a lot of people. Look up "detransitioners" as a good example of things going wrong.
To me, and other people who are not aligned with their worldview, it's obvious that there is harm in the ideology being pushed, and by censoring those who have a difference of view, or who try to stick to proper medical science, you end up funnelling people into paths that end up harming them.
Of course, others will disagree and think there's no harm in this (that's why they're commenting as they do). But I'm someone who's seen it first hand many times and so I simply can't get on board with that way of doing things.
It's not overtly "hateful", rather the opposite: toxic positivity. But still harmful. But my point here isn't "you should actually defederate from beehaw". My point is that what people think is "harmful" differs depending on your views and beliefs.
If I tell this guy, hey you have a medical condition called transvestism, have gyneandromorphophilia, and are at risk of further developing dual role transvestism and gender identity disorder, is that "hateful"? Beehaw probably thinks it is. But IMO that is simply helping and informing.
I was very interested to see examples, as I do not like to judge without knowledge, and I am a very firm believer that toxic positivity is harmful.
That being said, I saw no toxic positivity in that thread or harmfully "positive" comments. Instead, what I saw were many people encouraging OP to explore the ideas thoughtfully while keeping in mind that no one can tell them if they are trans except themselves. I saw encouragement to seek out therapy instead of doing this alone, encouragement to consider the ideas of doing mundane things as a woman (such as doing taxes, grocery shopping, commuting, etc) and see if it still felt right (instead of just the attraction or sexual aspects), reminders that the whole concept is a spectrum and not to get hung up on labels and instead focus on actions that feel right.
I fail to see how any of that is toxic positivity.
The only worrying comment I saw was yours, and even moreso because you indicated that you were biting your tongue because of the community's rules. You used negative slang terminology to indicate this person merely has a fetish and that this big bad world is too confusing so OP should look to the past when these things were handled more simply "scientifically", and insinuated they were only going to blindly follow the answer given to them about whether or not they are trans instead of explore their identity given the info from the thread.
It's the equivalent of encouraging someone with anorexia that they should lose weight and eat less.
Anorexia is actively harming the individual, exploring gender identity and expression is not. Additionally, the commenters (multiple!) told OP that they should seek out therapy in order to actively explore these ideas.
I think I have a bead on what you're saying now.
I can't really say I agree that gently supporting someone to explore a side of themselves they are coming to grips with is the same as advocating for the eradication of trans people...
I see it like this: the more these far right types are isolated in echochambers, the more extreme they will get, and long term that is harmful. if, instead, we foster polite and civil discussions, we can come to a mutual understanding, change minds, change hearts, and actually do something that benefits all, and help everyone get closer to the actual truth of the matter.
The mod in the post clearly was speaking against overt hate (slurs and the like). And I think that's the sort of thing that should be stamped out and discouraged. But a disagreement of views? If you don't wanna see someone's differing opinion, why should that mean you're gonna prevent everyone else from talking to them? Just block yeah?
The example that beehaw defederated over makes sense. There were people posting nsfw content in sfw communities, off topic, that was clearly meant to shock, harm, etc. it makes sense.
But have these exploding-head guys posted off topic? did they spam? did they shout slurs everywhere? or did they simply disagree with you? If it's a matter of disagreement, I don't see why the strong action of defederation is needed. Surely we can talk things out?
The existence of people who detransition is often brought up in anti-trans circles as a criticism of gender-affirming care. However, the actual number of trans people who even just regret getting medical treatments is like 0.5%. Versus something like 14% for medical surgeries in general. And this is including trans people who regret it for social or economic reasons.
I could say some things about why some people here don't seem to think that people outright saying full-on alt-right shit is bad enough that we should defederate, but I don't think they'd actually understand or want to
fuck it; those people are so lucky that they've never had to think about the danger of alt-right shit as anything other than a thought experiment, the type that hasn't ever had to deal with people who fundamentally want them to stop existing
like guys, that's not "alt-right people are crazy weirdos but ultimately harmless", that's "I'm lucky because I just happen to not be a primary target for them, if a target at all, and I have mistaken this for the alt-right being of low influence"
honestly peak "I don't have to think much about politics, and haven't realized that this is an incredible privilege to have" behavior
To put another spin on it, lemmygrad and exploding heads have an old beef with each other that predates the reddit migration. Far-left vs far-right, it's not rocket science. As an example try typing in lemmygrad.com and see which instance it takes you to.
Now ask yourself what it tells people when sh.itjust.works has lemmygrad defederated but not EH. It's an endorsement, no?
Exploding Heads has never defederated lemmygrad. We invite diverse opinions, discussion, and debate.
Well put.
I hope you know that the intolerance paradox also applies to you.
I think your standards for what you call fascism is dangerously misguided, I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't recognise a totalitarian society if it snuck up on you.
No, in fact I have studied it well. It is within the established parameters, if you care to look them up. I am indeed acutely aware of the totalitarianism that is creeping further and further each day in my country.
Fascism must be ruthlessly stomped out and nipped in the bud before it can spread. It is too late in the outside world, but not here, in these small online communities.
Here, we still have a choice.
Edit: lol I just noticed you're from that instance. You're just a concern troll/crypto fascist so nvm. But I'll leave this comment up for others to read.
it's not necessarily too late in the outside world either, tbh; it's just harder
The irony of being against fascism and then getting upset when one of these supposed fascists is willing to engage with you -- But you're not willing to engage with them.
There’s no irony in that at all lol
If you'd care to check my comment history, maybe you can see your own prejudice for yourself.
I checked it. All I see is a person with an account on an instance that allows hateful posts to go on unmoderated. Now, I could surmise that you are a regular Joe that made his account on a bad server on accident. But no. You seem to have no problem sitting at the table with those biggots. Beyond that, you are dead set on defending that horrid instance at every corner. So it's kinda hard to take what you say in good faith.
For some people, they are already living in it.
I envy some people living in developed countries; they can take what they like and ignore what they dislike.
There was a guy calling Ernest (kbin dev) a fascist earlier because his avatar is a screenshot of monty python with a guy holding a gun.
for the downvoters
nazi accusation
While I don't dispute your broader point that people can have some rather broadly-ranging views on what constitutes fascism, I do wonder if that specific user might be trolling.
to some people, everyone but those they agree with are a fascist. to others, seemingly no one is a fascist. It's rare to see people actually use the word properly, as it's kinda just become an insult. The right call the left fascists and the left call the right fascists. Meanwhile actual fascists openly acknowledge such lol.
Yeah I must confess I recently went over there and agitated them a bit. I just wanted to see what their deal was because I saw a few of them over here.
TLDR they are basically like r/thedonald, libertarian types. Use slurs as a badge of honor. Angry, sad people. Fully in favor of defederation. But I get that it's early days, and defederation is a sensitive topic. I just don't see any path to that server becoming something of value that I'd want to interact with.
I dont see why defederation is seen as a sensitive topic.
Its a great feature, designed for specifically this purpose.
Over time people will migrate between instances and land where they fit. Some people want to be abrasive cunts, and they will land with the other abrasive cunts. Thats great, they have an instance they can do what they want on.
For the rest of us though, we dont want to see their bad faith articles and abrasiveness on our feeds. No one is being limited in their speech, but they might be limited in their reach. If they want to expand their reach, they can join a more broadly federated instance and ditch the bad faith arguments and abrasiveness.
Its the kids table at the dinner party. You can join the adults table if you behave in a way that is suitable for the adults, if not go back and play with the kids and everyone is happy.
The example that introduced me to federation was like an instance getting overrun with Nazis, and everyone deciding to just cut that instance loose; let it float alone as "the Nazi instance" that nobody has to interact with.
I thought that stuff like bad actors and assholes was one of the main reasons for the idea of federation, really surprised how many people thought differently
I think people would be surprised at the amount of instances that have already been broadly defederated.
Its just that the beehaw defederation is the first "big" incident since broader adoption, and thats for very understandable reasons with a roadmap to refederation already in place.
The only people who get angry about an instance being defederated are the types who want to act in bad faith. They know if they join the instance they got defederated from they will be banned if they spruik the shit that got the instance defederated in the first place, so they are angry that no one wants to listen to their shit.
It sucks for legitimate users that get caught up, but if youre a good user willing to participate in good faith, just join another instance and carry on.
In Beehaw's case especially I saw a lot of people who came off more that they took being defederated personally or that they felt entitled to Beehaw's communities than anything
like I still can't understand why people found it so abhorrent that Beehaw temporarily defederated; they literally stated why and explicitly stated that it's probably not permanent
like they made it clear, people just didn't bother to read for some reason
I respect beehaw's ability to defederate and their decisions to do with their community as they please. I don't agree with their actions and I don't think they did the right thing. But that's why I did not and will not sign up on beehaw.
But if people start defederating each other over slight disagreements? I think that's bad for the idea of federation in general.
My perspective isn't so much that I'd like to act in bad faith, but rather that I do not wish for others to dictate who I may speak to or what beliefs I may hold. It's one thing to have a standard of civility, respect, and polite discourse and to avoid those who do not act as such. It's another to ban/censor/close off people over a disagreement of perspective.
Defederation is top-level admins building a wall, forcing people to either have two accounts to interact with both groups, or to move and find somewhere that isn't defederated. If you don't want to see certain content or talk to someone, why not just block them? why block for everyone? I don't get that view. I avoid signing up on instances like beehaw because I know they're quick to defederate. if you want that sorta thing, why not go join them?
Your "right" to expression doesnt extend to forcing other people to listen to you.
I dont know why that seems to be such a common thought.
You have a "want" - in that you want to be able to say whatever you want to whoever you want.
Other people also have a "want" - to not have to see that shit when they are just chilling on the internet.
We find ourselves at a point where we are on a platform that allows problematic places to be excluded. People there can still say and do what they want, the majority just doesnt have to see or deal with it anymore.
No one is dictating what you can and cant do or say, you are free to do that.
What defederation does is create a place for people who dont care about that shit to exist without having to see it. By defederating at an instance level, it takes that burden away from the individual user and creates a place that they want to be at. If you dont want to be there thats fine.
Its only a problem with people who think like yourself because you want to push your views onto people who arent interested. You want your views to dictate how another community behaves. You dont get to dictate that though. You're welcome to join if you want to follow their rules, if not find somewhere with rules that you agree with.
As for myself agreeing with beehaw, I interact with that instance regularly. I dont need an account there because I have accounts elsewhere that are federated with them. If those other accounts became defederated, id weigh up the pros and cons and create a local account if I wanted to continue the interaction.
This is a fundamental, core aspect of the fediverse. If being restricted from places that you arent welcome at is something you dont like, I sincerely think the fediverse is not for you. That said, I cant think of many places that are for people who want to push their views onto unwilling others, because the places that spruik that arent attractive to the people who are sick of that shit.
There are places for the type of content you want to engage with. There are even places that are halfway, where people from both sides of this divide meet and converse. The problem only exists when you want to bring that shit into places where it isnt welcome, and the fediverse has been designed from the ground up to alleviate that problem for the majority of people who arent interested.
Indeed. That's why the block button exists. If you don't want to hear someone, you can block them. But if two people wish to speak, why do you feel like you should prevent them from speaking to each other?
No. My "want" is to be able to discuss things, understand where people are coming from, and arrive at something that is mutually beneficial. The best way to do that is to avoid censorship nazis.
Yes, I'm fully in favor of people curating their own experience, not the experience of others.
Actually it prevents other people who do care from seeing it. Defederation is not a "personal block button" it's a wall preventing anyone on the instances from communicating.
The opposite, actually. I'm in favor of people blocking who they want. We are both on kbin. If I wish to see posts by those exploding head guys and you do not, what do we do? If we defederate, you are forcing your desires onto me. If you just block them yourself personally, then you get what you want, and I get what I want. win win, right? So I don't understand why you would defederate, rather than just block?
The opposite. I've spoken many times that beehaw and sh.itjust.works are entirely free to do what they want. I don't agree with those communities defederating, but naturally they're gonna do what they're gonna do.
If you like beehaw's federation policies, and not kbin's, why not use beehaw instead of kbin? Surely that is the obvious thing to do?
My concern is over my own instance preventing me from speaking to others. If beehaw wishes to block kbin, I'm not gonna cry over it, I can speak to people elsewhere. But if kbin starts defederating, then I have an issue. I believe most places will wish to have open and civil discussions and federate with more or less everyone. This is how kbin currently does things, and I support that. But if everyone is just going to defederate each other, why bother with federation at all?
Or perhaps you just didn't see those who don't bother engaging in conflict?
I fully understand why you don't expect to find content there in the future, but is that a good argument to deny access to those who already have?
Exploding heads have gotten subscribers from here as well. There's an extensive backlog of topics some people find quite important - even if others don't.
I don't have a problem with you personally. You've been fairly reasonable in our interactions. But the people on your server are not great. Maybe you should make an account here.
I don't care for them myself, but unless they're causing problems outside for everyone else, why defederate?
If there are communities you don't want to see, you can block them as they appear.
The argument being that if they aren't blocked at an instance-level, due to how the federation works, those comments could very easily spill over into these threads. Those that do want to participate in good faith would need to create an account with an instance that is federated.
How do you block them? Not a feature on kbin yet as far as I know.
If you'd like to block them here on kbin, go to to their domain page:
https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com
and then click the "cancel" circle/crossout button over in the sidebar next to "subscribe". That'll block the entire domain.
Radicalisation starts with people "just asking questions" or "just pointing out an issue with X without having anything against them", that's enough to hook some people that will go way down the rabbit hole.
In the screenshot you see exactly what I'm talking about, "I'm not racist, but I can point out issues with the BLM movement". Alright they just opened the door to people that are a bit more radical to try and find out where the tolerance ends and to others to start looking for answers with a biased premise in mind.
I invite you to watch this video (and the whole series really) that covers all of that:
https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
I mean, there are indeed issues with the BLM movement. And this "possibly leading to radicalization" is much better than lack of critique.
Say, cultural appropriation is suddenly fine when it's black people doing it. (Talking about Cleopatra in that show, the show itself is not important, just that the "politically correct" approach to it differs.)
Or people who think that BLM is more important than actual ethnic cleansing happening in parts of the planet far away from BLM.
Of course, these issues are inherited from general ignorance and indifference to suffering of others combined with trends of virtue signaling. Same happens in many areas not connected to racism.
...
Nope.
I don't think this is a satisfactory answer.
Anyway, what I said can be shortened to "everybody who is looking sees you as a hypocrite when you are doing this kind of activism which costs nothing".
You were talking to people not even from that instance. You people need to learn how federation works
I've already acknowledged that multiple times.
Your comment is the perfect example of why defederation is even being considered. You're a sad, confused person who is angry at the world and takes it out on other people. One look at your comment history makes that clear.
We're trying to build an alternative to reddit and it's going to be really hard to do that if we have to fucking drag people like you along with us. You seem to enjoy making other people miserable.
If you genuinely think libertarians are equivalent to r/thedonald posters, you have no clue what you're talking about. Which is why defederating based on politics is stupid.
I never said they were equivalent. One of the most popular posts on the server is about creating an index of libertarian/right-leaning instances.
https://exploding-heads.com/post/92733
One of the most prominent users (4 month acount!) is named maga_force.
What term would you use to describe their users?
@imaqtpie "What term would you use to describe their users?"
Nazis, probably.
Comma separation implies a list of traits (users are both r/thedonald users and libertarian) whereas or/and would imply that libertarians and r/thedonald users both exist in the instance
Conservative/MAGA fits the majority of the content a lot better
Lol fair enough, thats true.
I honestly thought libertarian was the more flattering descriptor, but sure we can go with Conservative/MAGA
Yeah, so do they - that's why they try to co-opt the term lol
Ok word. Yeah libertarians usually have some kind of rationale and principles while MAGA people are just walking memes that regurgitate spam.
Honestly most self-described right-libertarians are really differing levels of feudalists. With the uber-feudalists being the “anarcho-capitalists”. Which is the dumbest term ever but that’s not the point.
So I’m always very very suspicious of someone who says they are a libertarian…
Most people who think they are “libertarians” have no clue what they are talking about.
Proudly planting the libertarian flag on top of a few pet peeves.
Then watch them cry foul whenever libertarianism strikes in any of the soft spots they don't want touched, or don't understand through lazy ignorance. An extreme cartoonish (yet sadly real) example being something like "Keep your dirty government hands off my Medicare".
It is as disappointing to see MAGA-types try to co-opt "libertarian" for optics as it is to see the general populace so lacking in critical thinking as to take the bait hook, line, and sinker.
The term had been coopted by feudalists much before that. The term originally referred to anarcho-socialists as opposed to the growing “authoritarian” socialist trend. I put authoritarian in quotes, because that term has also completely lost its meaning.
Anarcho-communists represent.
Nazi instances will proliferate and it benefits nobody else to stay in federation with them. It makes the whole fediverse less usable and more dangerous. And whether you like it or not it sends a message to people who are targeted by them that they are not truly welcome here, regardless of whatever moderation rules are espoused.
And in North America, as in many places, these people are acting as a propaganda arm for a literal violent terror movement. Sometimes under a fig leaf of ”irony” but it makes no material difference whether they’re chuckling when they spew shit to me
That place is gross. They have a parent community that is just trans hate. I can't imagine spending so much energy being a hateful idiot.
It's easy: have nothing else going for you in life and making fun of others becomes a super fun way to pass time.
Basically playground bullies who never matured beyond that mentality.
Fake news
Defederation should be the LAST and FINAL option. From what I understand, this is a small instance that isn't causing much trouble outside of their instance. Block them on your own! I'm on lemmy.world, but personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post. I don't think we should start going around defederating communities that we disagree with, even though their opinions are shit, vile, offensive, and disgusting. Leave it up and block them on your own.
Edit: 10 years ago I used to be one of those intolerable fucks. Yes - exactly like them. Until I talked to other people on Reddit, real life, and listened to other ideas. I had a change of heart and hope even a couple of them could too. It happens.
It's always funny as, non American, to read about this naive anti- censorship slogans. Hateful political groups never stay in their places and play nice everywhere else. They brigade and harass every fucking time. There's a reason why every place without moderation turns into a absolute toxic cesspit.
Not the prettiest instance, but have they caused any real trouble outside of their own instance? Not much of a fediverse if we just defederate from instances that lean different politically. Especially seems like a weird move to go defederating on other instances this early given y'know, that we just got defederated from beehaw because of one misbehaved asshole.
Given that no bigotry is one of the stated rules of this instance and that bigotry is pretty rampant over on that instance I think it would be appropriate to disassociate with them.
Seems like something you should block individual users over rather than a whole instance
If the instance lets bigots participate then the problem is with the instance itself.
lemmy.ml has tankies on it among normal discussion, but it allows the genocide-denying tankies, therefore we should defederate from lemmy.ml too right? Very sound logic.
Nice whataboutism you got there, care to come up with an actual argument instead of trying to deviate the discussion?
So only certain bigots count, got it.
Now you're putting words in my mouth as well?
You're totally unable to stay on topic, aren't you?
Bigotry is a matter of personal taste. I found some posts from trans subs talking about cis white men killing people, but I didn't try to censor them because I'm an adult and possess the ability to ignore them.
I'm not saying we should immediately defederate, but the reason I originally went to check them out was partially because of this comment and the reply from [email protected]
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/207742
When he made that reply, it got rapidly upvoted to +7, while my comment was also sitting at about +7. This morning, several hours later, when a bunch of actual sh.itjust.works users woke up and read the thread, the ratio of votes changed in my favor.
I fear that we are going to deal with a significant level of brigading from that instance, and unlike reddit we don't really have any tools to combat that.
They also had a good laugh about the troll who posted here about getting us defederated by beehaw. They really don't like beehaw, or gay people in general.
It's whatever but we are already defederated with lemmygrad.ml and I feel like this stuff is on that same tier.
this is an interesting post-reddit effect, we have people of all different types and motives seeking new places.
A lot of people seem to think this is an all out battle between a new community and reddit. Like we have to beat them or something. The situation with reddit is not a win-lose, reddit would never go dark overnight. A lot of users are just over reddit and moving on. I personally don’t care about lemmy becoming the next reddit nor do I really care what happens to them.
A big difference to me with this migration is the instances seem to attract like minds. This is going to be a very interesting event to watch how the fediverse grows and changes.
I personally do see this as a war against reddit and the corporate internet. But we are just marshaling the troops, we aren't about to march into battle.
I think this migration is different for two reasons.
Firstly, because the main users who were alienated were the mods, app devs, and long time redditors. The composition of the exodus is infinitely superior to the voat migration for example.
Secondly, because the platform of Lemmy and the fediverse provides actual value due to the ability to federate. You can't get the combination of access and protection that this platform might eventually provide on regular social media.
I had a look through their hot-page and couldn't find anything on the level of lemmygrad. Do you have any examples?
https://exploding-heads.com/post/100772
Many of the trolls on that thread aren't actually from that server, but they clearly reside in the same dark corner of the internet. But yeah its not really as bad as I thought in terms of needing to defederate, I thought they had over 1k users acting like that but I guess I just replied to the wrong person because the server is mostly dead.
But I have to say, I've never encountered people with such a burning hatred of redditors. Again, it's whatever but I wouldn't be bothered if we did defederate.
Your continuous misrepresentation of Exploding Heads is depressing. Burning hatred for redditors? Where do most of the anti-reddit posts on Exploding Heads originate from? Mostly from the new instances. You say dark corners of the internet, but we're digital neighbors.
If you check the timestamps on that thread you linked you'll see the non-EH people attached themselves to my comment from god knows where. It was unwanted, unsolicited, I've never seen them before and they used it as an example to show how a lemmy thread works. I blocked most of them, that's why you see my engagement disappear.
That's the example you use.
I was here years before you guys. I've seen the lemmyverse struggle. I have advocated so hard for openness, inclusiveness and communication through interconnectivity - all the while saying that people should block what they don't like or find offensive.
I find this whole thread symbolic of the culture you all on average have brought with you. Prejudice, misrepresentation, moral reprisals... I had it enough conflict, I know Exploding Heads won't block you and I know I can't be bothered to individually block thousands and thousands of users accusing me of the most horrible things, like being a Nazi.
At least you guys won't have to block two known prolific shitposters maybe having opinions other than yourselves, mostly in a space you'd have to seek out.
By being on the sh.itjust.works you are personally as responsible for this as the average exploding-head user is responsible for a few of our idiots posting on the internet. I'm leaving lemmy until full instance block is available for individual users so I won't ever have to interact with the type of average user I've seen on sh.itjust.works. Or at least in this thread.
You all drove me away from this platform. At least I have the decency not to seriously argue that you all should be disconnected from other instances.
I'm sorry.
I now recognize that the thread I commented on was full of people that were trolling you just as much as they were trolling me.
But it's not my fault either, I commented on your server once and got fucking dogpiled by a bunch of creeps. I didn't even make this post about defederation, I just responded and gave my honest experience and opinions.
I acknowledge I was mistaken in some of the things I said about your server. But you never came out and explained who you guys are and why you're here. I still have no idea why you have 1.2k users who are mostly inactive, or when or why the server was created.
I feel bad and I hope you reconsider, but I haven't treated you poorly at all, so don't go around saying I drove you off the platform. You're welcome to create an account here and promote openness and inclusiveness through interconnectivity.
That is the only post with those people on it. You specifically found where other's are trolling exploding-heads and then trying to get exploding-heads defederated. You are being manipulated.
Nice
I think we should stay federated with them. They haven't said anything wrong or bad yet.
What can I say about brigading other than Exploding Heads having to turn off downvotes for the first time ever due to silent brigading?
How's our federation affecting your instance?
Well for starters, your instance users are pretty much the only ones popping in and complaining that we're defederated from lemmygrad, despite it not affecting you at all.
Y'know, since you're on a different instance and all.
Attempting to exert influence on a different instance seems kinda like the federation attempting to affect this instance, no?
We are bigger than you so you can't really affect us too much. But all I can say is I never downvoted anybody on your instance, I only made comments
If you are bigger than us (by a factor of 100?) and we can't really affect you much, is the fear of substantial downvote brigading perhaps a bit unnecessary?
Don't feel like I'm accusing you of brigading, you seem like the type of person who'd rather have a discussion than just anonymously downvote.
If anything, based on your previous statement about seeking out a different community to rile them up, trolling would be more correct.
I didn't seek them out to rile them up, that's just what ended up happening.
Yeah it's probably a bit unnecessary, but even if the brigading doesn't overly affect the community, it's annoying when people come in to post divisive shit and it gets upvoted to +7 before anyone here notices.
And then when I go over there I get people coming out of the woodwork to hurl slurs at me. I know those aren't necessarily people from your server, but they are part of that whole scene, so I can't just ignore that kind of stuff.
Also by my count you've got 1.2k users and we are closing in on 5k. So not bigger by a factor of 100
1.2k registered users on one of the oldest Lemmy instances.
We had 20 active users today, you had 640. I retract my guesstimate, my argument is that you're only bigger by a factor of 32.
And is it impossible that some of the users from your instance upvoted something they subscribe to, so it must be brigading?
But let's not discuss like we disagree. You all have convinced me to support defederation.
Yeah I suspected that was the case, but you didn't make it super clear that most of your users were afk. You should have put that in the headline.
What was the reason that instance was created and how long ago? I really don't know anything about Lemmy history before I joined.
Being openly bigoted isn’t a “political leaning” though, and it’s against lemmy.world’s code of conduct as stated on the sidebar link: https://mastodon.world/about
No one is saying let’s ban conservatives. This discussion is about defederating an instance that seems to be crawling with alt-right trolls. I don’t understand why that would be a problem.
Like I'd hope that we wouldn't follow in Reddit's footsteps of tolerating alt-right bigotry
Defederating isn't like being fucking censored or whatever; it's people deciding that they don't want to be around you
Basically near-every instance did this for Lemmygrad with zero complaint, so it's fucking weird that there are so many people complaining now when it comes to an instance teeming with alt-right bigotry
Reddit didn't tolerate alt-right bigotry. What are you on about?
And yes, defederating is censorship. I had a burggit account because I liked the name, but then once they got defederated from everything, I needed to make a new account. That's censorship.
Lemmygrad, Exploding-Head and Beehaw are all safe-spaces and echo-chambers. They won't wander outside their zone, which they haven't. Find it hilarious you're so huffy about the alt-right, but silent about multiple mods enabling pro-communist content.
Do not mistake inconvenience for oppression.
That is NOT censorship. Everyone on that instance still has every opportunity to say whatever they'd like. Don't cry over the fact that it's not reaching as many people as you want it to.
Obligatory XKCD about this topic.
So you're pro echo-chamber? You also completely disregarded my point about having to make a new account.
No, needing to make a new account is not censorship, get over yourself.
How is having to make a new account in an entirely separate instance not censorship?
Yes it did, until media brought attention to it, then they banned The Donald and Metacanada and these users just joined other subs where they spewed their poison with the admin's blessing in the cases where mods from subs that got banned were also modding other subs that didn't (metacanada mods also modding Canada).
And all of the tankie subreddits were never touched despite having the same content.
The whole reason lemmygrad.ml (and hexbear) got big is literally because their subreddits got banned
Really? What subs?
Almost like tankie subreddits weren’t gaming the Reddit vote system to push literal propaganda to the front page for years or something
Propaganda is the front page, my dude. Won't deny T_D was shitty, fuck em, they deserved the ban-hammer for having an echo-chamber.
Whataboutism, try again in a discussion about tankies.
Whataboutism is perfectly valid.
Get your American politics out of your head when talking about global issues. Just makes you look ignorant.
how about that whole span of time that r/the_donald was a subreddit lmao
edit: it's not censorship if you can easily move to another instance with little difficulty and just continue from there, with most of the same communities even
people like you just think someone telling them that they don't want to hear you is the same as being suppressed
I can tell you the exact same thing. Keep the attacks to yourself.
Agree. I think blocking should be done on an individual basis unless it truly becomes a problem for most users and a turn-off for new users
Agreed, defederation exists for a reason. Maybe if exploding heads admins get their shit together and clean up the instance they can get regenerated but as is nothing us to be gained from this federation.
Exploding Heads have between 40-60 active users, you probably noticed two posters you find disagreeable.
Have you considered blocking the users or communities you find offensive?
I second this.
If nothing else, this should count as a wakeup call to the exploding-heads admins, that if these are just outlier users they should probably be reigned in. If there is pressure to defed now, it will only increase if nothing changes. If the instance won't manage its users, that's precisely why they will get defederated.
yeah, like if anything else support it because actual talk of defederation might get the admins to get their house in order
and if not, then nobody's gonna miss an alt-right haven anyway
If the platform itself allows these users to participate then the platform is also an issue.
If you hang out with racists and don't argue against them then you're racist too.
I support this. Keep Nazis out of my feed.
Defederation is de-platforming. These hate communities are able to recruit because let them. We give them free reign to whisper hateful falsehoods in the ears of the vulnerable, all in the name of free speech. They can be as hateful as they want on their own, but we are under no requirement to give them a platform to spread their ideologies. De-platforming works, so let the nazis chirp in their own little echo chamber. Keep their hateful rhetoric contained to their own little garden so our vulnerable youth need not be exposed. It's easy to say "just block them yourself," but that doesn't cut off the steady supply of misguided incel-larva to fill their ranks. Drown 'em out. De-platform them. Defederate now. No quarter for hate.
The issue with censoring is that as soon as you start censoring people because you think their ideas are harmful, there are those who think your ideas are harmful. yet the group doing the censorship never sees their own views as harmful. it just increases polarization, echochambers, etc. which IMO leads to more harm, not less.
I think the way beehaw goes about things is harmful, so should we defederate from them as well? Or are only the things you think are harmful what should be censored? And if the latter, who made you boss?
sh.itjust.works can decide their federation policies on their own, but defederating over a difference of belief is always odd to me. the mod message that OP shared is clear they don't allow truly hateful speech, they merely have different views on things. same goes for lemmygrad, they get defederated often but they seem quite civil despite their fringe views?
I wonder if kbin will stay the course and continue federating with everyone or if it'll eventually defederate. I hope the former, and those who wish for an instance that defederates can go elsewhere.
No one is censoring anyone. They are free to post whatever toxic shit they want. But we, as an instance, have elected NOT to listen. Censorship would be banning their instance from existing, which IIRC is impossible with federated instances. No, this is just de-platforming. We are turning off the loudspeaker connected to their instance. We don't have to give them a platform. There is no reason to do so. So we defederate.
EDIT: Let me dumb it down further. "We are removing the link to Stormfront from our home page due to their stances." Would you call that censorship? Is it censorship that I would unfriend someone because they are spewing hateful garbage? Of course not. If you really want to read that hate, there are plenty of ways to find it. We just aren't going to help you find it anymore.
"we as an instance" you're on kbin. has kbin defederated? I just woke up so maybe I missed something this morning but.... this is the sh.itjust.works community lol.
🤓
kbin is still federated with everyone lol. and afaik sh.itjust.works hasn't defederated exploding-heads.
hun you're a kbinaut, not a sh.itjust.works user. You'd be unaffected by their defederating if it happens.
Hey kbin users if you want to block this domain just go to https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com and block that domain there.
Perfect!
Now my preferences are in place while others squabble over federation.
Thanks!
This. Kbinauts should encourage using the block button, rather than demanding defederation. Curate your own experience, don't try to curate others' experience. Please and thank you :)
That's super helpful, thanks. Still learning the platform and wrapping my head around things.
Let's wait for per-user instance filters to be implemented, then everyone can block instances to taste. As long as their users don't cause trouble in our communities, there's no need for our instance to act as a moral guardians and decide what our users can and cannot see. Defederation is a nuclear option that should only be done if their instance is disrupting our instance's operation (spamming and breaking rules while in our communities).
I like that sh.itjust.works currently federates with almost everyone, and I can see a big part of the fediverse from here. It would suck having to visit multiple instance to see the whole fediverse.
If per-user instance filters are implemented, perhaps instances could have "default blacklists" for new users for stuff like exploding-heads or lemmygrad that most people don't want to see, with the option to manually un-block them if someone does want to see that.
Lemmy or Jeroba just ate my comment so let me try again.
I didn't initially want to join here, but the instance I did want to join (which is defederated with Lemmygrad, Burggit, and Exploding Heads and I think that's a fantastic defed list) is having significant growing pains at the moment, while shit just works here. I ran across my first Exploding Heads post in All and it was gross, and it seems like the tools available to me as a user will leave me playing whack a mole to get rid of all of it which I'm not looking forward to. Right now I'm planning on moving to that other instance in a few weeks once they get everything sorted out, but if Burggit and Exploding Heads are defederated here and the issues with Beehaw are sorted out (which I'm optimistic that they will be), I'm open to staying here, it's certainly the easiest option for me given the lack of account migration options, and the perks of being in a larger instance (the community search feature in Jeroba has worked well for me and I think it's due to the large user base here). I'm extremely impressed with how The Dude is handling the scaling issues and his communication with Beehaw right now, also I generally like Canadians and green energy, lol.
I’ve defederated with Lemmygrad and exploding heads on my instance. I haven’t heard of Burggit before, are they also kind of out there like those instances?
Burggit allow loli porn, that's bout it
Animated child porn. Absolutely fucking revolting that they allow that.
Mind if I ask what the instance that you’re planning to move to is? That sounds like a great defed list and I’d like to support that sort of behavior.
They're a regional instance. That should narrow it down a bit but I'm sorry I don't feel comfortable saying outright. They've been having server issues, I'd prefer to try to keep them from having moderation issues too, there's been a couple of people from shit just works brigading other instances. Most Lemmy instances have defederated from exploding heads at least.
if there are other instances that have defederated instances u want defederated, i recommend joining them, as you yourself seem to be aware of.
There's no way I'm going to read all of that but I scanned it and caught a "I have many gay friends" and said ayup, there it is.
These guys fucking suck, no doubt, but I really prefer that we put the impetus on users to block communities they don't like rather than pursue total defederation
We should absolutely not turn to defederation as a first action. You know how traditional social media bans opinions that are not acceptable according to themselves?
We must be better than that. It creates a ridiculous otherwise where people think everyone agrees with them and they are never challanged in how they think about things.
I think we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it's within the rules, meaning people must be polite, not hateful, not breaking the law etc.
Read up on the Paradox of Tolerance, please. "We must be better than them" is a call for total tolerance, which will inevitably lead to the disappearance of tolerance, and that cannot be allowed to happen. It is simply impossible to have a community where transphobes and trans people coexist happily together, and I'll choose the side that's not trying to hurt others (trans people, in case that wasn't clear) every day.
Every censorship-enjoyer loves talking about the Paradox of Tolerance. Here's the part Popper said that they like to gloss over:
But certainly the proposed defederation isn't the same as suppressing utterance, considering there would remain a publicly accessible instance for that speech. This would be closer to keeping in check by public opinion, since it's the action of exterior social forces.
Thats an interesting link, thats for sharing it.
I mean sure, I dont have a lot of faith in humanity in general. It seems the majority is unable to act in a mature way, so maybe you and the link is correct.
But I wish we would grow up as a species. We are acting like monkeys.
No, we are acting like humans. But close enough ;-)
Hate is not an opinion
You say we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it is within the rules and yet this instances most active communities post anti Trans hate and covid conspiracy shit. Surely this goes against our instances rule of no bigotry. Also paradox of tolerance, etc.
I agree holy shit I went there today and there was some hateful af stuff
I often hear the argument "they'll just go elsewhere," "they'll just start new accounts," etc, to defend not censoring/defederating/blocking/whatever fascist or proto-fascist people or sites. That's not an argument, that's a commitment to rolling over for fascists and intolerance. They're bringing the fight, and not fighting back and making their lives harder is just helping them move the Overton Window further to the right, and making horrific ideas palatable.
If we're losing our minds over ~20 active users, then we have way bigger problems than that instance.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I have no issues defederating with an instance like that. I just don't think it matters much either way.
They've probably gotten more clicks from this thread than they have in their entire existence.
Why wait until it becomes a problem? The_Donald literally started as a joke brought over from 4chan. It grew and over time it basically went from "too small to do something about it" to "too big to do something about it" (to Reddit admins at least). Why even give these people a platform? We don't have any reason to give them space to grow.
The difference here is that there's no financial gain to platforming. If they're actually causing problems, then the response can be swift and easy because there's no ad dollars to worry about.
Again, I don't disagree with this on principle, and if TheDude wants to defederate them I would support it. I just don't see it as ridiculously urgent or dire.
IDK why people are thinking he's gonna de-federate for transphobia when he has allowed the matt walsh documentary to sit on his instance for days now
Yeah I noticed that.
seems like that instance is gonna approximate the worst parts of reddit in the future lmao
I am thankful I found a non-ban-happy home where I can see opinions I may dislike.
That's your prerogative. I hopped to a different instance that more closely aligned with what I was looking for and also appears not to be ban-happy.
I don't see exploding-heads on lemmy.world's blocklist.
You're right. I just blocked them directly.
Only thing I'm blocking is loli and annoying hentai spam. My ego is not fragile enough to shield my eyes from opinions I may dislike.
Sometimes people just don't wanna see slurs or dehumanizing content. Doesn't make them soft. Something you see that is "an opinion you dislike" might feel a whole lot worse for someone else depending on their age, race, sexuality, gender, ect.
How do those people function in real life where they don't have such a pre-filter?
didn't know "some people shouldn't have rights or the right to exist" is just an opinion
whatever, clown
Who is saying that?
Just as an outside observer - a lot of people from reddit are out searching for a new home. Convos like these will set the tone for every new entrant so you have the opportunity now, before it all goes really big like reddit, to shape a community based on mutual aid, love, earnestness instead of one focusing on building capital at any cost.
There are so so many socially conservative sites and spaces fully dedicated to those communities, big enough that even normal media covers them. But how many Gabs or Parlers exist out there for marginalized people, how many communities are willing to do the hard work of ensuring there could be a beloved community where hatred and minimization is curtailed, who don't act according to the will of private investors demanding incessant growth?
I hope there can be spaces like that which can grow from a watershed moment like this. It would be really cool if it were this one 😌
I'd really like to see a space where people who are more on the conservative side of things can speak freely and be exposed to alternative views, rather than just getting insta blocked and banned and having to go to the more extreme corners of the internet.
I'd like to decide for myself what I want to see and what not, as an adult.
it would be better, to be able to block a whole domain/instance per user, like we can do it with communities
Yeah okay I get we’re all upset but he has read the patriot act, so…
Isn't it just better to do it on your own accord?
If you do not wish they mingle with you, block the community you do dislike. You can even block individual person.
If you do not want to participate in theirs, just don't visit them.
Defederating is extreme, it takes liberties and freedom from other users, and should only be used as last resort.
EDIT: @eta_aquarid, why you are discussing this instances meta, you are from kbin.social? And then why you blocking me? Is there some sort of brigade going on here?
EDIT2: So many other unrelated instances' user come in here. Wow. There are some coordinated attacks to make sh.itjust.works worse huh?
KBIN.SOCIAL PEOPLE: This https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/39264/Hey-could-we-defederate-with-exploding-heads-com#comments means it is HOSTED on sh.itjust.works instance! It is NOT kbin.social post! Even if you can see from your instance!
Wtf, what liberties and freedoms does it take from anyone? No one has the right to anyone’s attention nor any instance. They aren’t being blocked from using the software.
I'm not blocking you; had you been replying to what I said?
also being blocked from an instance doesn't mean you're suddenly not able to use the Fediverse; it just means that that instance doesn't want to associate with yours
this can be fixed by just moving to another instance, or (in this case) getting rid of the alt-right shit
Defederation isn't an attack on free speech; it's a group saying that they don't want to interact with you; freedom of expression doesn't mean everyone must listen
@[email protected] Many common people only joined lemmy for joining niche communities, and agreeing with admin rules.
New users here won't know beehaw stuff. Defederating robbed their communication.
We are all adults, we can block them. I do not participate in exploding-heads, I do not support many of their discussion. But when defederstion stuff comes up, I always think some new, niche users from there who do not know fediverse stuff, want to visit here. They will be the biggest victim.
Like I said, just block them yourself. Block individual that say nasty stuff. Defederation just hurt common users.
Also you are also from kbin? Why are you here discussing this instance direction?
@[email protected] I swear I can't reply to you for half an hours. Kbin probably have some issues.
But, how about nonpolitical community? How about people who do not wish to participate in drama of defederating and only want to talk to each other?
Since you are from kbin.social, the outcome of this thing does not affect you at all. I wish you do not participate any further to stir the pot.
considering that I'm definitely not the only kbin user on this thread, no?
and that "nonpolitical" thing, what does that mean?
What do we consider as so normal that believing in it or saying it is considered apolitical?
because the context here is that there are alt-right users on an instance and the instance is either doing a bad job of getting rid of them, or is completely fine with them being there
and maybe that's apolitical to you, but not to a lot of minorities
Then by being a part of the instance that is causing problems they are supporting and enabling the problems. They can continue to participate in the conversations that they wish to participate in by joining the instances they are interested in in good faith.
I'm also from kbin.social, but the whole point of the federation, as you JUST pointed out, is to participate in conversations across instances and provide input in good faith to create multiple perspectives. Additionally, just because THIS post is about sh.itjust.works doesn't mean it won't have an outcome for kbin.social or other instances as well.
I’m as leftist as they come and I do not support this action. If you don’t want to see it, mute the instance rather than creating an echo chamber.
you're leftist but aren't considering the paradox of tolerance?
like, why? What is the reason you're not supporting defederation?
How does one mute an entire instance?
Community blocking was a recent addition, instance blocking for users is coming. I don't think the massive growth of instances could be expected so I understand the prioritisation.
I’m not actually sure, honestly. Maybe mute the users instead if the instance isn’t possible to mute.
@[email protected] I can't reply to kbin.social users so I will say it here.
For your information. If sh.itjust.works defederates from exploding-heads, only those users on those communities will be affected.
Kbin.social won't. The users there still can see both sides and interacting with both sides regardless sh.itjust.works and exploding-heads defederates or doesn't. A simple example, kbin.social people can still interact with beehaw.org, right? We here can't interact with them at all. Some already made another account on another instance.
So, people on Kbin.social should not having voice on dispute between these two communities because it has no impact on them.
Why NOT kbin.social that defederates from exploding-heads then? Why MUST sh.itjust.works? Yet I see four or more accounts from kbin.social try to do discuss this thing. Why you guys from kbin.social try to do this?
I made my point in a previous comment about why I am providing input info this thread, and I'll copy it here:
Because we can see the discussion and it could lead to a decision on our instance as well. Just because the question was raised about your instance doesn't mean others shouldn't also start discussing it.
Do you think when the titanic started sinking the people in the front told the people in the back to stop discussing it because it had nothing to do with them?
KBIN.SOCIAL users, this is the post URL: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/39264/Hey-could-we-defederate-with-exploding-heads-com#comments
It means it is on sh.itjust.works instance! It is NOT kbin.social post, even if you can see it from your instance! Speak to your own kbin.social admin if you wish to defederate from exploding-heads!
I was also kinda surprised that sh.itjust.works doesn't block exploding-heads as most instances I'm aware of do. That coupled with the fact that the instance doesn't block them but blocks lemmygrad made me think at first sh.itjust.works was going to be some far-right instance, but from what I've seen it isn't. Though, I don't understand why sh.itjust.works would want to federate with them, considering their content often violates the rules of the instance.
And it has begun!
https://exploding-heads.com/comment/95292
The link is from exploding heads, but it's a comment on a post on the main board for sh.itjust.works
No. Nazis need to be blocked by the instance admin. Otherwise, it's time to look for a new instance.
Don't de-federate unless they're allowing the planning of violence, CSAM material, or actual abuse.
As a leftist I see it like this:
Blocking someone is: "I don't want to see this"
De-federating is: "I don't want you to see this"
Blocking someone is: Ignoring a person saying bigoted things.
De-federating is: Jailing a person saying bigoted things.
If you can't handle people saying shit you don't like then you need thicker skin. If you can't engage in a conversation with a person who shares an opinion that you fine distasteful then you need to seek maturity.
If you can't disagree with someone without physically attacking them, then you don't deserve to be part of a community. If you can't exist without abusing another person, then you don't deserve to be part of a community.
Their answer is full of demagogia ... Its scary how its good...
If they start raid, or to be meaningful we can ban the specific communities or users instead of unfederate.
I really want to be able to read them (curiosity, see the new words their using etc ).
For now we should use reports functions and see how its going ?
This post has like 50x more users than this site, why are people still talking about it
that's dumb just block the communities with a lot of subscribers - aka where all of the users/trolls are. if someone gives you grief about it, block them.
This is silly. Just block the users/instance yourself.
Defederation exists for a reason. Shit heads and extremists should not be welcome here.
Given that one of the rules for the server is no bigotry, I would assume that extends to the ones we federate with from what I read.
If I do that does it auto-block it's users from showing up in other threads for me? Or just it's content from my feed?
I blocked it and still see @AyyLMAO (who is from E-H) in this thread, so I don't think it works that way. Hmm..
Nothing against that particular individual, they seem very well adjusted, but it's an easy test.
I personally think defederating shouldn't happen generally. I'd rather there be customizable user filters for either words, subjects, etc.
Like I'm not really into their content (or that of some other instances) but defederating at an instance level is kind of a giant hammer for the few folks who may (for better or worse) be interested in both instances.
The paradox of tolerance.
Not really a fan of putting on shades so I don't have to see the nazis in the nazi bar
just kick the nazis out
you're on kbin.social, not on sh.itjust.works, so first of all, why are you voting on what sh.itjust.works does?
sh.itjust.works is not a defederate-happy instance. If you want to join a defederate-happy instance, unlike kbin.social and sh.itjust.works, consider one such as the following, where exploding-heads.com has already been defederated:
Why? It will only create echo chambers, I want to access the entierty of Lemmy
https://i.postimg.cc/4xY36kWJ/shit.gif
If you're in the US your Overton Window for what constitutes normal right-wing might be what the rest of the world sees as hateful nutters
surprising how little some USAmericans know this
edit: like our Overton Window is so far right that even the Democrats would be conservatives in many countries ; if someone doesn't comprehend the severity of this, they have little business talking about the alt-right
I mean, being a minority, I can't help but see that as a distinction without a difference; the right-wing, if not outright fascist, is definitely flirting with it and that already makes me want to distance myself
Normal right wing is fiscal conservatives, people who believe that society should be moving forward but don't necessarily believe that governments should be involved in everything to make it so.
What we're dealing with here and on social media in general is social conservatives, far right, alt right, call them what you will, in the end they're just people who are intolerant of anything that isn't like them.
Considering that lemmy.ml deletes ap news or bbc articles for being "orientalism." Up until recently there hasn't been a server for anyone right of Mao.
They seem to be 3 or 4 active users, I think I know @[email protected] if he was on votal. One of the most active at the moment. He is far from a troll. Though he may hurt some people's feelings, he will defend your Liberty of speech.
Now something related : will we ban "fat_people_hate" ? We will ban jokes on any minorities ? Where do we draw the line ?
Something is clear in my mind : we have to band apology of genocide, war, call of violence, and such. We have to ban what would be illegal in many civilized countries
https://kbin.social/d/exploding-heads.com There's a block button on the sidebar, then you'll never have to see anything from it on your feed here.
That's a kbin only thing afaik, this thread is for the sh.itjust.works instance.
No. Get fucked, fascist. I should choose what content I get to see, not some power-tripping admin.
My experience with exploding-heads is they are mostly level headed serious users and not trolls at all. Defederating because one person had their feeling hurt is dumb and ruins the fediverse for everyone
Call me an outlier, but isn't the point of using Lemmy (and similar federations) is to allow free speech? Now federations are de-federizing day one? I don't like this trend
Don’t take it out on exploding heads, I’ll stop posting here, i was only sharing music here. And asked two questions. I have helped several of your users understand how to use lemmy better. I’ve been running a community for big tech exiles. I’m not a nazi, not a troll, this will be my last post here.
No, don't defederate. Just because an instance doesn't align politically with your views doesn't mean that they have to be gone. And we should definetly avoid a mastodon blocklist situation.
If you refuse to meet someone on level ground because you consider them intolerant of your own ideas, you're the one being intolerant.
Why should the ground be lowered to a level that fits the criterias of bigots?
If being bigoted is wrong, it doesn't take a genius to prove that, no?
I can disagree with everything they stand for, and think they are absolutely stupid, but god damn do they have a right to be. The mentality stemmed from twitter of "They are just so wrong I wont even listen or let them talk" is so ignorant and authoritarian. What if north korea censored people for saying anything negative about their government? That would be wrong to us, but to them it is based in logic.
The internet has become so used to banning expression, it baffles me. It used to be commonly agreed apon that every individual has a right to thought, and if they're stupid it should be easy to prove them so. Nowadays everyone is censoring everyone they dont like. Some people on the right wanting to stop LGBT content, someone in this thread wanting to censor the Matt Walsh documentary. I've watched it to hear his opinion, despite how much I may disagree with him. And it brought up some good points. If the documentary is so wrong, we should put it out there to show and publicly shame, no? Censorship is the weakest form of countering, no one is the moral authority they may think they are.
Sorry to make this so long but I am tired of people being willingly ignorant because they don't like what someone said. Have a nice day, stranger I disagree with.
god damn it, this "free market of ideas" bullshit never fucking worked
people who are bigots more often than not double down on their bigotry when it's challenged
because it's not a reasoned position they're taking; it's "Things in my life aren't that great, and I don't trust those people; I am going to rationalize to myself that that's their fault" or "I just don't like those people and I want an excuse to hurt them"
like yeah, sometimes it's genuinely not knowing, but if you're constantly proven wrong about your bigotry and you keep doing it then you, on some level, want to continue being bigoted
You are correct. People having free ideas is never going to work if you want everyone to have the same ideas. That's called fascism.
That's not what they're saying but hey, go on defending bigots and their right to use all platforms they feel like using to convert people 🤷
Please explain to me what I misinterpreted so I can understand better. And yes, I will defend the rights of all who want to express their viewpoints.
They're not saying everyone should have the same idea, they're saying arguing with bigots leads to nothing because when they're proven wrong instead of changing their mind they just double down and go further down the rabbit hole. The only way to prevent that is to just not let them take part in the discussion since they're not mature or intelligent enough to do so.
holy shit you have zero comprehension of politics at all, do you
"fascism is when people stop listening to you", right next to "communism is when the government does stuff"
"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."
Don't try to misinterpret what I said. Censorship of opposing views is attacking someone's right to free speech. Once again, you are correct, you don't have to listen, but they have every right to say. I'm sorry that you truly believe that people that don't like you should be censored. I don't like them either, but censorship is a violation of their rights.
"But this isn't a government entity!" No, its not, but that doesn't mean I can't argue for the right to free speech on here.
"Letting them have a platform will spread hate." The right to hate is part of free speech. Just as you may hate, from what I can tell, republicans/people on the right, they can hate anyone else too. "Speech can be ugly, disgusting, hateful, prejudice, and alarming, but it can never be dangerous to a free society as long as men and women of good will have the freedom of speech to dispute it, challenge it, and reject it."
As my final comment, because this comment chain has gone on for too long... the instance isn't far-right or disgusting. All of the arguing of "They're equal to nazi's!" is an equivocation that resulted in an unrelated argument. They don't have "hate speech", just speech you hate. Anyway, I suggest that BOTH of us stop arguing on here. As good of a point as either one of us may have, I think its clear we're cemented in our morals and are wasting our time. I encourage you to fight for what you believe in, and have a nice day.
not every place in the internet is America
Create a level ground then. Beehaw never said they are a level ground, they are an instance that doesnt want rightoids arguing in bad faith, the same way exploding heads wouldnt want an army of lefties coming in and injecting themselves into every thread.
A level ground where people of whatever affiliation can converse is a great idea. Beehaw doesnt have to be that place
the marketplace of ideas means fuck all when it comes to people telling you that you shouldn't be allowed to exist
Someone with a brain cell, finally
Unfortunately they just have the one
Anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, huh? Sounds to me this call for defederation is just to create yet another echo-chamber.
I have no patience for "both sides" BS, anyone who uses it is obviously not worth listening to
Bragging about your ignorance isn't attractive. Try to be like Daryl Davis, it'll enlighten you.
Good example, someone whose tireless activism that helped avoid openly racist people from getting into positions of power ... oh wait, no, they just got more powerful.
10 years of engaging on reddit taught me that the only way to combat their hateful ideas is to deprive them of oxygen
What are you even on about? How has Daryl's work caused KKK members to get into more powerful positions?
lmao, what a pathetic comment. "10 years of engaging on reddit"
The comment that was a reply to is also calling everyone idiots but somehow you don't have an issue with it?
No, don't de-federate. If you don't like it, block it, easy as that.
Lemmy is meant to be better than reddit, which means dealing with opposing views. If they're triggering or offensive to you, block them.
As far as I am concerned there is nothing to be lost by defederating with an instance whose most active communities are devoted to transphobia and covid conspiracy shit. It's not a matter of both sides having value they bring to the table. They are wrong, and we have nothing to gain from a federations with them.
I've already watched at least two people get banned for sharing a story that doesn't jive with the popular opinion on some instances.
I don't want another echochamber.
I've been banned because I used the British Cigarette word about my experience of homophobia. Truly hilarious.
I'm not British, but when camping my friends use the original meaning of the word "faggot".
Hey, the fire's about to die, bring us another faggot.
They say the exact same about you.
But unlike you, they are willing to engage, though nonsensically. Maybe you should try finding some common ground, or convince them, or just make fun of them if they peep their heads out of their echo-chambers, which they most certainly will not. I've been active and haven't seen a single user from exploding-heads outside of their instance.
There are enough echo-chamber verses as it is, we don't need sh.it to become yet another.
There is a very big difference between being willing to engage with those whose viewpoints are different to yours and supporting a hateful, bigoted rhetoric.
No one is encouraging sh.itjust.works to become an echo chamber because so one is suggesting viewpoints to be the basis of the instance. Only being against bigotry, which is already in the sh.it terms.
I agree.
But do you want them to be blocked? Or kept a close eye on?
Did you look at the image OP provided of the response from the "second in command" of EH?
He opens with stating that he will only ban in those certain cases (ok, reasonable to provide expectations for when you will ban), but when you read the cases they are actually situations for which he is legally required as the admin to report to law enforcement authorities, and he doesn't indicate that he will do that, just ban. So, are we to believe he will actually handle those properly?
What about if he feels a post isn't quite violent enough to be banned, or if the plans to commit a crime weren't quite specific enough to be considered ban-worthy? What if something that is "anti-jew" (to use his word) he considers to just be fact? What's "over-the-top" racism to him?
I did go over to the instance to get some first hand knowledge, and from the little bit if scrolling I did, it's a mixed bag. But this admission from the "second in command" looks like it's giving the green light to every one.
So we're holding him responsible for things that haven't even happened yet? That doesn't seem fair.
You know you can just ask him all of these things, right? If you want, I can even ping him so he can answer you within this very thread, something that will not be possible if they got blocked.
Which is why the questions were raised. I am one of the ones that pointed out to you that we are not discouraging engaging in open discussion. I am also not in the instance bring discussed at this moment - as you pointed out on multiple occasions, despite the benefits to this discussion including all instances as I have pointed out multiple times. However, these are also questions I feel you should ponder, as well as others in this thread, which might inspire other questions or thoughts. That's the point of posting a comment on a forum.
That means running the fediverse on non-proprietary software, not forcing the end-users to interact with conspiracy theorists
They're a tiny instance with even smaller communities, just block them and you're set.
So we just wait until they're a big instance with big communities before we start considering that it might be a good idea to not let them interact with an instance that has rules against them? 🤔
Exactly. r/thedonald started as a tiny joke sub started by 4Chan that wasn't dealt with until it became a festering cesspool of hate that became big enough to be a serious problem, brigading other subs and spreading hateful rhetoric. It has to be nipped in the bud and made clear that it is not welcome.
Our instance’s rules are for our own instance. If they come over here and start spewing ridiculous nonsense, then sure, we should start banning them. For now they aren’t even causing much trouble. If they do in the future then I’d support defederating, but I disagree with jumping the gun.
The alt-right became an issue because social media gave it the reach it never had in the past, you're arguing to let them have reach until they become problematic instead of preventing the issue in the first place, by the time they become problematic the number of converts will have increased, all because some people feel bad for them.
Firstly, the alt-right is far from a modern issue. And secondly it’s nothing to do with feeling bad for them. I couldn’t agree less with the nonsense they’re saying there. I’m saying that defederating them doesn’t “prevent the issue in the first place” at all. Isolating communities only makes them get more extreme over time. Refusing to let them interact with us only causes their beliefs to be echoed and amplified in their communities. And I should clarify again, by no means am I saying that they should be allowed to promote their hateful messages here. If they break the rules of our instance, here in our instance, they should be banned, simple.
The scale of it is a modern issue, far right extremists existed in the past, never have their ideas been as mainstream as they are today, social media and a certain politician gave them a reach they never had in the past. It's much harder to get people hooked when you have to meet them in person to recruit, now you just "question things" on digital public spaces and you'll have people who will start following you.
Isolating them is the solution because, for every one of them that gets out because they're exposed to other points of views, you've got hundreds or thousands being exposed to their message.
Moderation isn't instantaneous either so saying "We'll delete their message as they post it" just isn't a logical solution when you've got the capacity to just prevent them from taking part in the discussion in the first place.
They already have their spaces to radicalize themselves, the goal of taking part in discussions on general forums is just to get people to enter the spiral and to move the window of what is and isn't acceptable. Just look at what happened on /r/Canada, that place was becoming a right wing cesspool before metacanada was forcefully shutdown. Why? Because the mods decided to tolerate bigots.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ
No one is forcing anything. You’re allowed to block them, so do just that. If anything, defederating is the more “forcing” course of action.
Blocking them means I'm interacting with their posts which is exactly what I do not want to do
I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to be better, just different. While I'm never going back to reddit, if the one who owns the server makes a choice on the content of their server, I can decide whether or not I agree and stay or move. THAT is what's good about this system. You can stick to the instance that follows your ideology.
Okay, then move if you don't enjoy the instances available. Personally I'd like to see the blocked instances on a user-level instead of a mod-level.
That functionality doesn't exist yet as far as I know so the best bet is to ask the instance you're on "Would we defederate over this" and if the answer is no, change instances
Defedarating for political reasons seems stupid to me. If it's proven that the community is toxic and full of trolls, that is an argument to do it. Anyways, as other said, for now I don't think we really need some more defedaration drama
"Defederating for political reasons" is like a completely normal reason to do so. Like, why the hell should we tolerate alt-right shitheads here?
If you think this is "just political drama", count yourself lucky to not be affected by the alt-right
I'm affected by the alt-right, and I don't consider them much of a threat. They're just a bunch of closeted little boys with mummy problems.
well congrats on being lucky so far
how have they affected you personally in recent years?
The paradox of tolerance.
I understand that. I would love to just have a place where politics aren't something that is main focus
@chalkman >hEy cOuLd wE deFedErate wITH exploding-heads.com/
is this the best redditors can come up with????????? :guraKekw:
To me, Exploding-heads are on the other side of the same coin that Beehaw exists on in regards to fringe exteme ideologies and sensitive emotionally fragile admins. Defederating them both is pretty fucking dumb because it will create echo chambers that will in result churn out more idiots. Just block them via your preferred instance.
fucking wild to hear Beehaw being of a "fringe extreme ideology" for...
...deciding to defederate with really huge communities with lax registration requirements because they were overworked and didn't have good enough mod tools (because the platform doesn't) to deal with it?
Even saying that they'd consider refederating once those issues were solved?
In what world is this extreme, and in what world is this "the opposite of an instance that is amenable to right-wing people"? Like how could you even logically think that?
Maybe lemmygrad, but Beehaw is hardly radical because they did a temporary defederation because they didn't have the manpower to deal with users breaking their community rules.
I would say beehaw is more extreme than lemmygrad. Lemmygrad may have fringe extremist views, but their behavior on social media is rather tame (at least in my experience). Whereas beehaw may have more "tame" views, they're much more extreme in their moderating.
Listen cupcake, you wanted decentralized freedom. This is what it looks like. People you don't agree with exist. Grow a pair and block them yourself.
Well it doesn't have to look like that, people can openly discuss what they want to do as a community, deal with it snowflake.
Okay, as someone who actually has an account on sh.it. I'd like to let exploding heads stay, but keep an eye on them.
You have a group of people who want a filter bubble and a group of people who want a community.
Who do you exclude from a filter bubble? : Anybody you disagree with.
Who do you exclude from a community? : People who commit violence or abuse.
It is healthy for you to be exposed to ideas you disagree with. It keeps you from becoming a person who is never challenged and does real harm when they think they're doing the right thing.
The standard should basically be: "If this person said what they said in public, would be put them in jail?" that's what gets them banned and instances full of those people get those instances defederated.
If you don't want to hear opinions you disagree with then use the block button. Build you filter bubble how you'd like, but you don't get to control everyone else's view of opinions.
Yes, thank you! Finally, a reasonable take that doesn't go off the rails.
Reasonable isn't popular.
Seems a lot of people here would burn all of the witches so long as that ensured that they burned the correct witches.
I haven't seen one person post a link to a post or comment that would justify de-federation. Instead they're setting up nice strawmen with nazi hats and then attacking them ruthlessly.
Don't worry about it. These people will go back to reddit eventually.
Maybe these specific people will...
But the idea of ruthlessly filtering people out of your sight if they disagree with you rather than engaging in conversation is endemic. These people have zero interest in being challenged in any way, it's easier to press block or press the downvote button than it is to reply. The OP wants to cut off an entire instance because that's easier for their existence.
They feel like they're doing the right thing... but you can't convince them otherwise because they won't engage in any kind of debate. If you disagree with them they'll just label you as a bad person (OP suggested that someone, who disagreed with them, should go make an account on EH "because you sound like you belong there") and put you outside of their filter bubble.
Or, to Godwin this entire thing, you know there was another group of people who decided to label an entire group of people as a problem and to cut them out of society...
This is some top tier cringe right here.
tell me that you're a white middle class guy who's never faced marginization without teling me that you're a white middle class guy who's never faced marginalization
Listen Millefuille, you wanted decentralized freedom. Choosing to not associate with hateful ideas is what it looks like. People you don't agree with exist. Go find another instance.
Fuckers like you are the reasons this is going to fail. Redditor neckbeard hivemind that mass downvotes everything they disagree with.
If you're getting downvoted everywhere you go, maybe your opinions are just shit.
Downvotes from asshole Redditors usually means you're doing something right.
If you step in shit everywhere you go, look under your own shoe.
Bruv, we're on Lemmy
but it won't even affect you.