Wife's boss is on a power trip. Is this legal?
My wife works in a restaurant, and the power-tripping manager has instituted a new policy where all shift changes must be approved by management. I think that is reasonable enough, but they're also asking the originally-scheduled employee why they are switching shifts, then approving or denying based on the answer.
For example, her coworker (Tom) wanted Monday afternoon off, and Harry agreed to cover the shift. The manager asked Tom why he wanted Harry to work for him, and Tom said, "I have a softball game." Manager denied the shift change because it was "unnecessary".
Is this legal? I feel like if you're able to find someone to cover your shift, you don't owe management any explanation why you need the time off. How should my wife approach this situation? Colorado, USA BTW.
“Personal obligation.” Should be the only response anybody gives him going forward.
Bad case of anal glaucoma. I just can't see my ass going in to work today.
A+, just got to figure out how to work this into conversation without getting HR involved now.
Then use a more medical sounding term
I think my Rectal-Ocular Degeneration is flaring up.
Exactly. I'm a manager and literally never ask the reason unless it's longer than a week. They like to tell me anyway even though I've told them I don't care.
Maybe they just really feel like they can open up to you, Dicksinabag.
I feel like I could open up to Discksinabag pretty easily
I'd actually prefer it if they opened up to me.
I don’t know, that feels like a risk
Wait, are we all talking about docking now?
I thought we were talking about hamburgers and got hungry. I love dicksinabag
Isn’t that called sounding?
Open on up, bro. (But seriously, I believe in authenticity as a manager. I don't hide anything from them unless I'm told explicitly not to share with them.)
I can't imagine having a manager like in this post. I had to get a few hours coverage for my on call shift to pick my partner up from the hospital for an outpatient surgery. Manager didn't ask why I needed coverage but it just happened to come up. They immediately offered to get my entire shift moved without me even asking.
Seriously don't understand managers like this. Also a manager, qnd I'll even find the coverage if someone needs a day off. I know how nerve wracking it is as an employee calling around asking someone to cover your shift, its a lot easier for me to send a mass text. Incidentally, the staff seem much more willing to pick up shifts this way.
Could go into great detail about significant health issues, becoming more and more emotional as you go on, and tearfully asking "why would you make me talk about this? I wanted to keep this private! I haven't even told my family yet!".
I’ll show you my medical record if you pay for it.
It’s legal but insane. Your wife should start looking for a new job.
I'm not sure it would be legal if they were forced to reveal medical information.
Christ are we going to be having "hippa"(sic) arguments again?
You can refuse to answer - I sure would. Or just say you have an appointment. Being asked is not illegal.
Then I assume the jerk will just deny your request.
Right, but if you're request for denied for something medically necessary unless you revealed it, you went anyway (because it's necessary), and then you got fired... That feels like it shouldn't be legal (obviously that doesn't mean that it isn't).
It's up to you to reveal it or not. It's not a "request" if it can't be denied.
People think hippa is magical medical privacy. It has fuck all to do with telling your manager anything. It only applies to medical professionals or those who may see your records as part of their job. If your manager also processes insurance claims, then it applies, otherwise it's not different than telling a neighbor.
That would be a violation, but it is perfectly m legal to ask if someone is going on generic “sick” or “medical” time off or leave. Every company I’ve ever worked for has had be declare my PTO as sick leave or discretionary time off. And the latter is what it means, it’s at the discretion of the manager to approve it.
Sure, but that assumes this manager would be happy with generic "medical stuff" as an answer...
Worst comes to worst, they could ask for a doctor's note. And doctors notes are always pretty generic and basically say "yup, they can't work." But if the manager does ask for Dr's notes, they need to apply the policy equally to all employees.
It's usually a HIPAA violation if an employer asks for specifics about a medical issue.
Source: I'm a people manager who has had to go through a bunch of trainings about these laws.
Sorry but most restaurant work doesn't come with paid time off or sick leave. You either work and get paid or don't work and don't get paid.
Correct, non sick leave is usually considered discretionary time off; meaning, it’s at the discretion of the manager to approve it.
That said, this manager sounds like a nut job. It’s legal to be a hard ass, but people don’t have to remain working for you.
I see what you're saying, but we're not talking about requesting a paid personal day. We're talking about having you're shift covered by another person, and having that denied because management doesn't like the reason you want the shift covered.
I would decline to answer, and if pressed, say something vague, such as, "a medical procedure". That should be enough for most people, but if it they keep pressing, I would come up with something embarrassing, such as, "I need the time off to get my anal prolapse taken care of." Then be upset that you had to disclose private medical information and ask to speak to HR.
100% this. A former coworker was fired a month ago because he filed an HR complaint about his boss, because the boss was being an asshole to him (according to co worker).
This is the same boss who joked about beating his wife and kicking his dog in a meeting, so I'm fairly certain it's true.
HR is NEVER your friend.
If that's the case and they aren't leaving out pertinent information, that's a pretty clear case of retaliation, which is illegal in many/most US states, even those without robust worker protection laws.
Sounds like he didn't have documented proof sufficient to bring a suit against the company. Sucks but save your emails. Forwarding is free
That's exactly the point. HR is there to protect the company from you suing them for forcing you to provide personal medical information that you weren't comfortable sharing.
Yes you use HR as a weapon against such a manager for perceived federal protection violations
Ehh, I've worked in HR for 20 years and this isn't even close to true. It's what angry losers like to shout on reddit and now lemmy bc they've been fired. The whole point of hr is to balance between employees and the company. Sorry you got fired, I'm sure you'll find your talents valued somewhere else
I don’t know if you were addressing the specific case mentioned, but if someone has a softball game they want to go to, and they say they have a medical procedure to take care of, that could easily be grounds for termination.
Best answer I can think of is to unionize and negotiate a CA that includes shift trade rights. Short term, I don’t think there’s much you can do if the company wants to be a dick.
Mental health is a medical issue. Ergo any vacation is medical.
Points for creative thinking, but I would prefer not to get fired and have to seek redress through the courts.
Ok, unemployment.
It's a restaurant, not the presidency. Get a coworker to be your reference, do well at your interview and move on.
If it's a softball game, just say "I have to see someone about my balls".
In my experience most restaurants dont even have HR lmao. My mileage obviously varies but I have worked a few food industry jobs, and exactly 0 had any HR person other than the managers and assistant managers themselves
I believe HR in this instance would be "calling corporate."
assuming its a chain or franchise. if its a small family run/independant place, good luck
I like this answer.
Always give your boss as little information as possible. They aren't entitled to it and are much more likely to use it against you.
I say that as a manager. It's just good practice. If the manager doesn't know exactly why you're taking the day off, they can't be held accountable for it either.
As a manager, I don't give a flying fuck why my team wants to take time off. Wanna sit on your ass and play video games for a week straight, cool all good by me : just let me know the dates, check their PTO balance, and ensure it doesn't conflict with key deliverables and if so either work out a plan for coverage or suggest they look for a different time to take off if possible
Yeah, I don't know what Colorado's laws are on this in general, but even if it's technically legal it seems like a huge risk that someone is going to plausibly allege that given the specific facts denying them time off was race/religion/family status/... discrimination. It might be legal (don't know), but it's a stupid policy for a number of reasons.
"I've got a christening, communion, marvel movie, spaghetti dinner to attend. It's religious."
Or
"I'm re attaching my leg, keeps falling off. Medical things and getting old are hard, right?"
I have a co-worker who says her reason for the time off request is always gynecology related. Bosses never ask questions.
"Good morning boss, I need two weeks off for gynecology-related activities".
You could be having a baby, that falls into the scope.
Or trying to make one on the beach in Fiji with a partner or a local.
Or spending the week in bed, flicking the bean.
How about a partner and a local - Belts and Suspenders, and you only get one two-week shot at this.
It's time to give up this dream, you never even went to med school
"I don't want to know, Dave."
I need a leave for my pap exam.
Denied.
Why?
You're a man.
Gender discrimination reported to corporate headquarters.
Yeah the policy OP described just creates a culture where people lie about why they need time off 😆
It's not school - if someone agrees to cover the shift, just let em
One way you might resolve this is to get everybody talking about it without the boss there. I bet nobody likes the policy. Maybe everyone would agree to not give a reason, or to give the same reason that is an obvious lie?
Maybe if all the employees presented a united front. Like a sort of joint group of just the employees. Together in a union of sorts.
Maybe individually they do not have a lot of power, but together could be strong?
Individually they are weak like a single twig, but bundled together they form a mighty removed.
https://youtu.be/q34Qxl5HINg
Edit:
Aww, the text filter messed up the joke
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/q34Qxl5HINg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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This idea probably wont stick in the states. The workers there arent very united.
Everyone should always say 'its because I'm on my period.' Men and post menopausal women too. It could be great, if the first few times the younger women use the line it works. Then whenever someone who doesn't have menses uses it, everyone unites together and puts a little bit of their labor to helping a coworker. It'd be nice if there was a name for something like that.
Synced menstrual cycle?
"Personal reasons". If they continue to pry just say it's extemely personal and hopefully they'll back off.
"show me in my employment contract where it says I have to disclose that"
If this is in the US employment contracts are virtually nonexistent.
If a policy doesn’t discriminate against a protected class, it’s pretty much legal. Your recourse is to find another job.
We need legal advice communities
With the country built into the community name. Less confusion and wasted energy that way.
In the US, the state matters as well.
Not really, it's a private company unless you sign a contract they can indeed make their own policies.
Within the laws of the location of the employer. That's why state and sometimes even local laws matter.
I am pretty sure at any firm bigger than a mom & pop, there will be some sort of written agreement that the employee signs that establishes their intent to work for the employer. That's an employment contract even if it's not labeled as such. For example, they can sue if they aren't paid their agreed compensation. Because there's a contract for them to receive that compensation.
This is not correct. Wage theft is protected by law, not contract.
An offer letter is specifically not an employment contract - that distinction is usually spelled out in the law and also in virtually every offer letter.
In Ontario that's perfectly legal. It's also legal for you to decline to answer that question.I worked in kitchens for about 15 years and came across that problem at about 1/3 of the places I worked. Not super uncommon, the industry is filled with flakes.
Keep in mind in most jurisdictions Restaurants get special labour rules.
"special labour rules"
Seems every industry has their own... I work in IT and we get shafted as well
It's like a "special military operations", in the workplace!
I think I would simply comply, maliciously.
What's my reason? I'm going on a journey in alignment with my religion. Try telling me I can't follow my religious beliefs on the record.
I work retail and have tuesdays off for my men’s group, which takes 7 hours out of my day once travel is taken into account.
A coworker advised me that if management ever asks about why I need tuesdays off, I should just say “It’s religious”.
I don't live in the US, so I cannot comment on the legality of this. However, I will advise an informal policy of malicious compliance. If the manager asks why someone needs to take a day off, that someone should reply with incredibly graphic medical issues, whether real or fake. Think 'I'm shitting blood and I need to see a doctor,' or something like that. Keep it up for a few months and see how management responds.
My intestines backed up and every so often I need to cough up a loogi of chunky diarrhea
Whats it say in the employee handbook regarding time off?
It’s not the manager’s job to decide if someone’s personal obligations are necessary or not. It’s their job to assure there is coverage and the work is complete.
If the employee is abusing the shift-change timeoff policy, that is a different story.
If the manager is the owner, it may be a good idea for your wife to freshen her resume.
Of course it's legal. Why wouldn't it be?
She should approach it by either following the stupid rules or finding a new job
I second others advice by saying as little as possible. "Family issues" "personal obligations" "health problem"
No use being honest with a boss that isn't understanding
I'm assuming you're USian?
The question almost anywhere else in the wealthy world is why would it be legal? The manager does not need to know therefore the manager has no right to ask.
No that's the case in the US too. I never ask why my employee wants time off, I don't need to know any more about their personal lives, they tell me too much already...
Yes I'm in the US and I gave US-centric advice because OP is in US.
We all know US has shit labor laws. Although to be fair, I think in this scenario it would work the same way in ny home country of Brazil. When you want to switch you're essentially saying "I'm not showing up to my shift"
I'm not sure in what country that isn't insubordination and isn't subject to legal penalties by the employer.
Do you understand what a "switch" is?
I'm thinking you don't. "I'm not showing up to my shift but I have someone to cover for me" is still "I'm not showing up to my shift"
No it isn't. But you know that.
Question. Are you physically present at the job site when you get someone to cover for you?
The answer is going to depend on Country, State (if in the US) and locality. For a US based answer, you can contact he US Department of Labor and ask them for a real answer (certainly better than you'd get asking people on the internet). You can also contact the Department of Labor for whatever State the work is performed in.
At a guess, it's probably legal under certain circumstances. Knowing most small businesses, the policy is probably not that nuanced.
Where I live (California) it's basically the opposite of this. The employer can deny non-medical time off, but the employer must provide a good reason, such as a workplace emergency.
A lot of incorrect answers here as to the legality - this is not a blanket 100% definitely legal situation. In the US, the boss can certainly ask why. But, if he denies leave for something that is discriminatory then that is an adverse employment action under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act if they employ at least 15 employees.
For instance, if he doesn't allow leave to someone to observe a religious holiday, but allows others to go on leave under similar circumstances, that could be illegal.
A lot of things could be discriminatory. Its stupid of him to ask for specifics beyond medical vs personal.
My wife is of the opinion that a lot of these policies are being designed to make her work environment miserable. One of the main perks of that job is that two of her close friends also work there. The chef recently instituted a policy that the three of them are not to be scheduled on any shifts together because they "talk to each other too much".
This shift switch approval policy is new. Before, any shift swich had to be logged in a book, with both employee's initials. Now, the manager also needs to approve the shift change, and she's wanting to know why the change is requested, before she decides if she thinks it's important enough to allow.
It's a person with .0001 oz of power, trying to get the most out of it.
What bullshit. I’d make something up every time.
Whether their request is legal or not, my personal life isn’t my employer’s business, and certainly doesn’t revolve around their “approval”.
You shouldn't even "find someone to cover your shift". That's the manager's job. If the manager is not the owner then a call to corporate is necessary. If they're the owner then fuck this place.
If you were scheduled to work it is a reasonable thing to do though.
Nope, that's why there is management. They take care of scheduling. Employees don't need to do management's job for them. I always call off at my job, never heard my manager tell me to find someone to cover my shift, they take care of it. This is a culture that restaurants made us think is ok, and it is not
Well Colorado is an at will state so I would think it would be legal. Shitty but still legal.
It is legal, but this is going to kill the restaurant.
Maybe take it up with his boss? I really can't see the restaurant caring one way or another, as long as the shift is covered by someone qualified to do the job.
This is perfect for /c/Antiwork, do you mind if I cross post this?
Go for it!
What bullshit. I’d make something up every time. Whether their request is legal or not, my personal life isn’t my employer’s business, and certainly doesn’t revolve around their “approval”.
Not illegal but dumb if it’s a power trip. If the shift is covered, then the business doesn’t suffer, but there may be other things at play. For example, the day and time of the shift. If it’s during a super busy day sad you may need extra coverage.
Now, there may be other things going on, like employees constantly changing shifts at will. When I owned a restaurant, I spent an awful amount of hours figuring out shifts that were equitable. As a manager if I want to have some certainty, the constant changes by employees whom only informed me they had negotiated behind the scenes, would feel disrespectful of my time and of the time of others.
This probably has nothing to do with your wife, but everything to do with that other dude. If I had known that he had a softball game coming up, or is in a league on Saturdays, I’d have been happy to work with him to figure out a shift change. Shit like that happens. But if this guy keeps bothering other employees to get them to cover for him constantly, that would also be disrespectful of their time. Even if they agree to do it.
In other words: If that guy thinks that his softball game is more valuable than your wife’s time with you or your family, then he should look for a job that suits his lifestyle.
If your wife, on the other hand, would come t me and tell me she needed the hours, I could work with her on that.
In the long run, I agree. A personal softball game by itself, is not reason enough to miss your shift. Just like shit happens, work also happens.
And just a no without an explanation is also not valid. A good manager lets people understand their decisions.
Interesting, I have had a nearly opposite experience in the past.
At one retail job I had, if you needed a shift off, you had to find someone else to agree to cover your shift. That was basically the whole process of getting out of a scheduled shift. Take a shift off, fine, but it was the responsibility of the worker who needed a shift covered to get that shift covered.
Meh, not going to argue but everything you are saying in your post….. it’s just wrong…. Incorrect.
At a restaurant there’s pretty much zero reason leave shouldn’t be approved with or without notice.
Why do you have sick time or vacation time if people can’t use it.
It’s none of you business why anyone needs to use their leave time, I get that that is difficult for you to understand…. But it’s none of your fucking business why anyone is using their leave time. Ever…..
You should definitely provide fake answers. Make them medical and sexual in nature. "Hi boss, I'm getting a vasectomy, Bob's going to cover my shift." There's nothing wrong about this, and it maximizes the chance your boss will do or say something actually illegal because it's sexual discrimination. Colorado is an at-will state, so your employer has a ton of leeway, but discrimination is something where they still have to follow employment laws.
I'm thinking take it to the extreme and say you've got to go get an abortion (or take someone you knocked up to get an abortion). Then if they deny your request, ask them if they really want to be the next cable news headline.
Sounds like you need to source some tips from
![email protected]
If we look at it from the management side, a person covering your shift means he/she will go overtime which means more cost for the restaurant. I don’t know how big or popular this place is but if one doesn’t like the way things are going, she should file a complaint with HR or maybe look for another job.
Overtime in the hospitality trade?
Where?
Let me guess, you live in the U.S.
My suggestion, move away from that cesspool and towards more developed parts of the globe.
Because a server definitely has the resources to pick up and move internationally on a whim. 🙄
Well that went over your head.
I think getting actionable advice was the point of the thread.
Editorials are often seen as disrespectful and dont get the engagement you'd hope (this isn't a news community).