What if Hitler was the best case scenario result of time traveler interference? He bungled a lot of decisions someone like Himmler probably wouldn't have. What if WWII is ultimately unavoidable, and every other timeline was way worse?
Germany was only 75 years old in 1941; for all we know it'd be some totally new country that ended up conquering everything. "Hail to Field Marshal Bing Bong Potatoman, ruler of our great glorious Zambonian Empire"
Eh, yes and no. Red Alert 1 is part of both the Red Alert and Tiberium series. One ending results in RA2 and the other in Tiberian Dawn (C&C '95) but there's no consensus on which ending leads to which game. I think that the Allied ending leads to TD and the Soviet ending leads to RA2, but there are arguments the other way, too.
Reminds me of that twilight zone episode where she goes back in time and swaps baby Hitler for a kid she found on the street without the parents noticing. Turns out that baby on the street was the Hitler we knew and she caused the holocaust.
Heads up, Hitler's mom died of breast cancer when he was young. If you're going to seduce her, you should be emotionally prepared for the consequences.
Eva: Adolf, why are you destroying everything?
Adolf: My father is a time traveler from the future and he left me. So I make sure he will not exist.
Eva: From the future? So he could also be our son? laughs
Adolf: takes the gun
I mean I get the whole post isn't super serious but for real, I doubt that getting rid of Hitler-Hitler would have stopped the rise of fascism and nazis. There would have just been another leader who might have caused even greater damage.
I think often such things merely accelerate the time line. I'm pretty sure the urge to go look at the big shiny thing in the sky has been with us a looong time. We would have gotten there eventually one way or another.
That's sadly a very good point. I work in the biomedical sphere and it is an uncomfortable topic that a lot of our knowledge would not exist without the horrible experiments done on people during the second world war.
We would have gotten a communist germany. The first big enemy Hitler and his nazi party had to defeat were the communists who were operating similar death gangs to their gestapo.
If you think about it, there are on average 30 to 80 million sperm in a typical ejaculation. So I'd find Hitler's dad on the street, bump into him and jiggle his nuts a bit. Surely that'd be enough to change history.
So naive.... your bump was precisely necessary for the single unlikely Adolph sperm to make its way to the front of the line. You were always the nut-bumper that caused Hitler.
Adopt baby Hitler and raise him in a way that would not give rise to the kinds of feelings and ideologies that could lead him down the path of ethno-nationalsim.
That's when we figure out that this is the path that lead him to flip flop completely hating everything you taught. You went back to stop Hitler only to be the thing that caused his reign of terror. Life would have that kind of irony.
In general, all the "use time machine to kill Hitler" ideas (in the rare cases they are not presented as just a joke) assume that it was Hitler the person and not the socioeconomic and historical conditions that resulted in the catastrophe. There were enough little Hitlers to fill that role. If you want to prevent anything beyond small details, you have your hands full of work as a time traveler.
I think this comment really understates just how effective Hitler was as a politician and a leader. He tried to forcibly take over the government and it failed. That part any "little Hitler" could do and also likely fail. What set him apart was his charisma and appeal to the downtrodden, not unlike a certain US politician. He was so well loved and respected that he was able to do heinous acts with near universal support. I don't think there are many people in history that can do that sort of thing as effectively as he did
But just as that certain other US politician, he mostly came to power due to complacency and collaboration by more moderate nationalists and conservatives. And while the mythos of Hitler was immense, his draw not to be underestimated, without people like Goebbels, without the people hungering for just about any populist figure that enabled their own conspiracy theories, he would have been just another charismatic figure.
Let's put it this way: If you went back in time and somehow turned Hitler into a communist would that have led to the KPD being voted into power by the enabling act? I seriously doubt it, he was an exceptionally skilled speaker and decent political tactician, but he was no hand that pulled the strings of fate on his own.
I used to think the Great Man of History idea was silly. Clearly, it was a about a complex set of conditions that made somebody like them inevitable.
Then I worked for a few CEOs, good and bad and realized that, even in a company of thousands, the vision and charisma of one man makes all the difference.
Now, I think I see it like great plays in sports. It is the whole team, and the other team, and an uncountable number of factors ( bump in the turf ) that setup the conditions for that perfect shot. Once conditions are right though, you also need somebody capable of capitalizing on that moment and making history. Perhaps the most important element is that history making player. You still have to put them in the right spot though and a lot goes into that.
True, individuals aren't completely without influence of course, it would certainly re-roll details of what exactly happens, which could turn out significantly better. Unfortunately it could also be worse.
Also, there are limits to what can be achieved with it. For example, even without Hitler, to achieve a successful socialist movement in Weimar Germany, you'd have to do a lot more, Hitler was raised into a fascist demagogue by organizations active long before him, and their foundation was so rooted in the sense of revanchism and the rampant conspiracy theories drenching with antisemitism in Germany at that time, I genuinely think he was not important enough as a rallying figure to have tipped the scale, it was weighted heavily in their favour to begin with.
Keeping the SPD from hiring and strengthening the protofascist Freikorps alone would be more influential than killing Hitler, for example.
Go back in time and try to flag down Archduke Ferdinand's motor carriage only for the driver to get freaked out and go down the alternate route right to where Gavrilo was trying to get to the original route but was running late because another time traveler delayed him...
Personally, I'd think that would have resulted in a very different World War in the following years, but I am genuinely of the opinion that it was unavoidable. The conflicting imperialist interests were getting more and more tense, and Bismarck's web of alliances to keep the peace had not only already failed but had become impossible to maintain (due to those ever more rising tensions)
Plot point: hero person goes back in time to kill Hitler, but finds they have to fight off a bunch of other time travelers from different points in the future bc everyone wants the kill for themselves. Hitler still gets away.
Alternative plot point: The hero/es keep traveling back in time because everytime they kill a potential Nazi leader, someone worse ends up taking its place. We are left with the timeline where Hitler eventually takes that spot because it's considered the "best"/"least destructive" timeline.
In Legends of Tomorrow, there's a secret bar for time travellers that want to save Franz Ferdinand. You pull a number and wait your turn like at the DMV.
Just finished binging the 12 Monkeys TV show, thats just variations on an oops loop. If you seduce Hitlers mom you'll just end up being the father figure he never met. If you strand him in Nepal then either Hitler or any Austrian who witnesses you doing the timey-wimey dance will just blame an international cabal of time traveling Jews for it.
I think probably because it would take him a little while to get back probably, if he ever did. But wouldn't kill him. It's not like Hitler's grandpa really did anything wrong, that I know of at least
Closed loop, meaning you cant change anything cause it already happened. You time traveling was already written.
Back to the future, you can change things just be careful and dont accisently erase yourself through the butterfly effect.
We'll call this one reverse flash, not only can you change things but you can litterally kill your parents because you are disconnected from the timestream. (Not exclusive to number 2)
Future Trunks, congrats you just created a new timeline. You cannot change your future, have fun.
Alternate dimension, you just went to an alternate dimension that looks like your past. Dont let the British museum find out.
There's really only 2 not 5. Most are just variants of the two:
Singleton universe: time is linear, causality is set in stone, either through fix points (events that can't be changed). Time travel will just create a loop but causality dictates that this will already have happened and you can't change events.
Multiverse: You can go back in time, but doing so will branch the timeline and create a different universe. This will not have impact on any causality as you're an anomaly and you can do whatever you want (kill your grandpa, have a relationship with yourself etc.) and nothing will happen because you are in a parallel dimension and effectively can't produce paradoxes.
Sometimes movies just ignore paradoxes or logical fallacies because it makes for better screen time. But really all time travel is one of the two.
Primer is 1.
MCU is 2. (Endgame pretends to be 1 but really with the series Loki it's clear it's 2)
Predestination is 1.
The series Dark is actually a weird mix of the two. First it's 1. And then morphs into 2.
Triangle is 1.
Rick and Morty is 2.
There is also type 3, called a closed timelike curve or Lorenzian manifold. Aka a Djinn: a loop in causality where the original cause depends on the final effect. It exists outside of linear time and yet is not a separate timeline or "-verse" in the multiverse.
A singleton universe doesn't allow for multiple versions of a single moment to coexist. A closed timelike curve does, and potentially an infinite number of variations all as long as they are continuous in the same curve. It's also different from a proper many worlds theory with quantum variations. The relationship between causes and effects are mapped differently. Thus it's its own thing.
Starting a relationship with Hitlers mom will eventually end in heartbreak when she dies from breast cancer after several painful experimental treatments. I'd rather kill a baby.
Gotta love the heteronormativity on this post. Why fuck the mother? Why not go back in time and fuck Hitler and make him fall in love with me? All hail homo-hitler!
"Fuck hitler's mom"
Yeah that sounds like the setup to a bootstrap paradox in which you were always hitler's dad.
Get a vasectomy, then start the relationship.
Ah, yes, the "release a bunch of infertile male mosquitoes so the females won't have any babies" approach to Hitler-offing.
If that’s the case, trying to kill Hitler would make Hitler what he always has been.
I believe theres a twilight zone episode where that happens.
Which episode?
The one where they go back in time and fuck hitler's mom.
Which one?
He only had one mom!
Still not answered, I wonder too.
Cradle of Darkness maybe? https://youtu.be/byIkAPRnWnU
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Yes.
Thx.
I had to look it up. Its called "cradle of darkness", the fifth episode of the 2nd twilight zone revival series.
What if Hitler was the best case scenario result of time traveler interference? He bungled a lot of decisions someone like Himmler probably wouldn't have. What if WWII is ultimately unavoidable, and every other timeline was way worse?
Best case?
https://youtu.be/_WzxiWWZnww
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Germany was only 75 years old in 1941; for all we know it'd be some totally new country that ended up conquering everything. "Hail to Field Marshal Bing Bong Potatoman, ruler of our great glorious Zambonian Empire"
I welcome our new ice resurfacing overlords
As a Canadian, I always knew the Zamboni’s would take over eventually.
Literally the start of Command and Conquer Red Alert lol
Would there even be an Oppenheimer movie in the new timeline?
And without Oppenheimer we'd never have Barbie!
:(
But we'll always have Margot in our hearts!
:)
Wait wait, I should have said:
We'll always have Margot in our hearts, even if Hitler was never alive!
I feel pretty Aladeen about this.
Such is the nature of time travel that you go back in time to seduce and fuck Hitler's mom and guess what?
Your son is Adolf Hitler.
No one ever considers that this is the best timeline possible and we got Hitler because someone already time shivved the SUPER NAZIS and SUPER HITLER
Mecha-Hitler wasn’t just some artist’s drawing for Wolfenstein, it’s a remnant of another timeline where there’s fuckin robot Nazis all over
The premise of the entire Command and Conquer universe is that Einstein deleted Hitler and it went horribly wrong.
That's just the Red Alert series, but ok.
Eh, yes and no. Red Alert 1 is part of both the Red Alert and Tiberium series. One ending results in RA2 and the other in Tiberian Dawn (C&C '95) but there's no consensus on which ending leads to which game. I think that the Allied ending leads to TD and the Soviet ending leads to RA2, but there are arguments the other way, too.
No need to be pedantic.
It's something of a thing we are doing now at lemmy. Don't worry, it gets worse. Like a mutated Reddit
So the Holocaust is OP's fault?
Hitler was always your son.
Reminds me of that twilight zone episode where she goes back in time and swaps baby Hitler for a kid she found on the street without the parents noticing. Turns out that baby on the street was the Hitler we knew and she caused the holocaust.
Heads up, Hitler's mom died of breast cancer when he was young. If you're going to seduce her, you should be emotionally prepared for the consequences.
So you're saying Hitler could have been one of the Guardians of the Galaxy?
Treat his mom's cancer, then?
Eva: Adolf, why are you destroying everything? Adolf: My father is a time traveler from the future and he left me. So I make sure he will not exist. Eva: From the future? So he could also be our son? laughs Adolf: takes the gun
That actually went full circle, 12 Monkeys style.
It's never "give Hitler a good life where he is never taught or led to be a prejudice psychopathic murderer."
I mean I get the whole post isn't super serious but for real, I doubt that getting rid of Hitler-Hitler would have stopped the rise of fascism and nazis. There would have just been another leader who might have caused even greater damage.
I always think more about the technological leaps made because of the war. We might not have gone to space if nobody made rockets as weapons.
I think often such things merely accelerate the time line. I'm pretty sure the urge to go look at the big shiny thing in the sky has been with us a looong time. We would have gotten there eventually one way or another.
It would also probably go even faster if we just stopped requiring things to be """economical""" to get research.
That's sadly a very good point. I work in the biomedical sphere and it is an uncomfortable topic that a lot of our knowledge would not exist without the horrible experiments done on people during the second world war.
Or fascism may become the new trend in democracy because it didn't get associated with genocide...
you imply this isn't what's currently happening anyways
We would have gotten a communist germany. The first big enemy Hitler and his nazi party had to defeat were the communists who were operating similar death gangs to their gestapo.
What about get Hitler art lessons at a young age or don't let him try art at all
Traumatize Hilter to make him hate art.
Imo, his art wasn't bad. But yeah. I think maybe just don't let him join the army
I agree it wasn't bad. Bribe the art school to let him in, and his career path changes completely.
i mean, who has that kind of time?
If you think about it, there are on average 30 to 80 million sperm in a typical ejaculation. So I'd find Hitler's dad on the street, bump into him and jiggle his nuts a bit. Surely that'd be enough to change history.
Ye old scrotal quantum shake
Twist his dick!!!
So naive.... your bump was precisely necessary for the single unlikely Adolph sperm to make its way to the front of the line. You were always the nut-bumper that caused Hitler.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo
Because it is a thought experiment about punishing people for pre-crime, not people actually planning what to do with a time machine.
No, I'd 100% kill Hitler if I ever got a time machine. It would be my first stop on my way to see the dinosaurs.
i'd fuck his mom
You'd wipe out everyone born to someone displaced from the war
I think this is the plot of Tenet.
The cool thing about a time machine is you'd be able to kill Hitler several times, in several ways, in several different back drops. 😃
Kill Hitler, every single day that he was alive, starting with the last day and working your way back to his birth.
Hey if you ever get access to a time machine and i somehow piss you off in the future, could you do me a favor and hop back to this day and warn me?
Consider yourself warned.
oh no
And you just legitimized a large swath of serial killers. How can you deny someone his kill who is "saving the world"?
That's a little sociopathic
One might argue that the Holocaust was also a bit sociopathic.
More than a bit. But I don't fantasize about mutilating and murdering a serial killer every day. Dexter wasn't saying that its normal
Adopt baby Hitler and raise him in a way that would not give rise to the kinds of feelings and ideologies that could lead him down the path of ethno-nationalsim.
That's when we figure out that this is the path that lead him to flip flop completely hating everything you taught. You went back to stop Hitler only to be the thing that caused his reign of terror. Life would have that kind of irony.
Oh shit my phone doesn’t work back here. I know I’ll send him to art school!
How would you know that this situation including time traveler dad's disappearance doesn't ultimately create him?
In general, all the "use time machine to kill Hitler" ideas (in the rare cases they are not presented as just a joke) assume that it was Hitler the person and not the socioeconomic and historical conditions that resulted in the catastrophe. There were enough little Hitlers to fill that role. If you want to prevent anything beyond small details, you have your hands full of work as a time traveler.
I think this comment really understates just how effective Hitler was as a politician and a leader. He tried to forcibly take over the government and it failed. That part any "little Hitler" could do and also likely fail. What set him apart was his charisma and appeal to the downtrodden, not unlike a certain US politician. He was so well loved and respected that he was able to do heinous acts with near universal support. I don't think there are many people in history that can do that sort of thing as effectively as he did
But just as that certain other US politician, he mostly came to power due to complacency and collaboration by more moderate nationalists and conservatives. And while the mythos of Hitler was immense, his draw not to be underestimated, without people like Goebbels, without the people hungering for just about any populist figure that enabled their own conspiracy theories, he would have been just another charismatic figure.
Let's put it this way: If you went back in time and somehow turned Hitler into a communist would that have led to the KPD being voted into power by the enabling act? I seriously doubt it, he was an exceptionally skilled speaker and decent political tactician, but he was no hand that pulled the strings of fate on his own.
Well, history is actually full of those guys. Successful enough to actually conquer territories? Much less, but still quite many.
It is both.
I used to think the Great Man of History idea was silly. Clearly, it was a about a complex set of conditions that made somebody like them inevitable.
Then I worked for a few CEOs, good and bad and realized that, even in a company of thousands, the vision and charisma of one man makes all the difference.
Now, I think I see it like great plays in sports. It is the whole team, and the other team, and an uncountable number of factors ( bump in the turf ) that setup the conditions for that perfect shot. Once conditions are right though, you also need somebody capable of capitalizing on that moment and making history. Perhaps the most important element is that history making player. You still have to put them in the right spot though and a lot goes into that.
True, individuals aren't completely without influence of course, it would certainly re-roll details of what exactly happens, which could turn out significantly better. Unfortunately it could also be worse.
Also, there are limits to what can be achieved with it. For example, even without Hitler, to achieve a successful socialist movement in Weimar Germany, you'd have to do a lot more, Hitler was raised into a fascist demagogue by organizations active long before him, and their foundation was so rooted in the sense of revanchism and the rampant conspiracy theories drenching with antisemitism in Germany at that time, I genuinely think he was not important enough as a rallying figure to have tipped the scale, it was weighted heavily in their favour to begin with.
Keeping the SPD from hiring and strengthening the protofascist Freikorps alone would be more influential than killing Hitler, for example.
Indeed. Some people wrong place wrong time completely alter the course of history from that point forward.
Use time travel to 1914 and save archduke Franz Ferdinand, avoid the great war and the economic sanctions imposed into Germany after the war
Go back in time and try to flag down Archduke Ferdinand's motor carriage only for the driver to get freaked out and go down the alternate route right to where Gavrilo was trying to get to the original route but was running late because another time traveler delayed him...
There are some key points though that if prevented could stop the whole shit. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand for one.
Personally, I'd think that would have resulted in a very different World War in the following years, but I am genuinely of the opinion that it was unavoidable. The conflicting imperialist interests were getting more and more tense, and Bismarck's web of alliances to keep the peace had not only already failed but had become impossible to maintain (due to those ever more rising tensions)
So kill all of Germany just to be safe. Gotcha.
Nuke it from orbit. It is the only way to be sure.
The Vogon constructer fleet is on its way...
🎶 Hitler's mom has got it going on 🎶
Plot point: hero person goes back in time to kill Hitler, but finds they have to fight off a bunch of other time travelers from different points in the future bc everyone wants the kill for themselves. Hitler still gets away.
Alternative plot point: The hero/es keep traveling back in time because everytime they kill a potential Nazi leader, someone worse ends up taking its place. We are left with the timeline where Hitler eventually takes that spot because it's considered the "best"/"least destructive" timeline.
In Legends of Tomorrow, there's a secret bar for time travellers that want to save Franz Ferdinand. You pull a number and wait your turn like at the DMV.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/5uilpw/wp_the_year_is_1910_adolf_hitler_a_struggling/ddug54b/
Here is the ultimate
yeah that takes the cake haha
I would watch that.
Just finished binging the 12 Monkeys TV show, thats just variations on an oops loop. If you seduce Hitlers mom you'll just end up being the father figure he never met. If you strand him in Nepal then either Hitler or any Austrian who witnesses you doing the timey-wimey dance will just blame an international cabal of time traveling Jews for it.
And why just Hitler? If we could time travel I'd assume he'd have plenty going after him
Based on what's happening in the US it'd have been a good idea to sink the puritan ships
As a Nepali expat... Why Nepal? Did Indiana Jones not do enough demonization? #KeepHitlerProblemWhite
I think probably because it would take him a little while to get back probably, if he ever did. But wouldn't kill him. It's not like Hitler's grandpa really did anything wrong, that I know of at least
Wouldn't that just make it so you are actually Hitler's dad?
And then I'd have to time travel to fuck Hitler's dad's mom. I didn't make the rules, I just enjoy them.
Yeah depending on the time travel rules we apply, fucking Hitler's mom could be one of the worst calls you could make.
Hitler is likely the surname of Hitlers father, so he wouldn't be called that.
Sounds like the plot of Terminator, but told wrong.
Speaking of plots told wrong, I found this collection of gems while looking for someone doing it with Terminator 😁
Ahahah, excellent! 😂
Hitler’s mother, for those considering it: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Klara_Polz_Hitler.jpg
For the fellas into tomboys
Michael cera?
Woof, good thing this was before prohibition.
I'd take one for the team.
The day I find out I’m Hitlers father and my own grandfather…
You did do the nasty in the pasty
Walt a second...
You can never change history even if you can time travel. How did you manage to kill your own grandpa before you were born again?
You do relize there are like five different types of time travel. You could just as easily pull a future Trunks as you could a Marty McFly.
I... I need to know the different types of time travel.
Closed loop, meaning you cant change anything cause it already happened. You time traveling was already written.
Back to the future, you can change things just be careful and dont accisently erase yourself through the butterfly effect.
We'll call this one reverse flash, not only can you change things but you can litterally kill your parents because you are disconnected from the timestream. (Not exclusive to number 2)
Future Trunks, congrats you just created a new timeline. You cannot change your future, have fun.
Alternate dimension, you just went to an alternate dimension that looks like your past. Dont let the British museum find out.
There's really only 2 not 5. Most are just variants of the two:
Sometimes movies just ignore paradoxes or logical fallacies because it makes for better screen time. But really all time travel is one of the two.
Primer is 1.
MCU is 2. (Endgame pretends to be 1 but really with the series Loki it's clear it's 2)
Predestination is 1.
The series Dark is actually a weird mix of the two. First it's 1. And then morphs into 2.
Triangle is 1.
Rick and Morty is 2.
There is also type 3, called a closed timelike curve or Lorenzian manifold. Aka a Djinn: a loop in causality where the original cause depends on the final effect. It exists outside of linear time and yet is not a separate timeline or "-verse" in the multiverse.
That's a variation of a singleton universe timeline.
A singleton universe doesn't allow for multiple versions of a single moment to coexist. A closed timelike curve does, and potentially an infinite number of variations all as long as they are continuous in the same curve. It's also different from a proper many worlds theory with quantum variations. The relationship between causes and effects are mapped differently. Thus it's its own thing.
Theirs zero different types of time travel
I meant in fiction pedant. And there is one type of time travel, forward.
Ooh, the uberpedant. That's a rare one
Theres five or four of us!
And I love you all
...because of time travel?
Starting a relationship with Hitlers mom will eventually end in heartbreak when she dies from breast cancer after several painful experimental treatments. I'd rather kill a baby.
Look time travel is just one big series of accidents until you just wish Schopenhauer was dead
Why are we assuming it wasn't all Hitler's mom's fault?
She did create Hitler... I'm just saying...
And dad, just to be safe
Is c/suddenlybi a thing?
Gotta make it the best he could possibly have. Otherwise he may be interested enough to try Mrs. Hitler's claims minge.
What if I had a vasectomy first? I could accuse her of being barren and really treat her like dog shit.
/s on that second part.
shoots
Ah u meant as in sex..
Pulls up corpse
The Evil Baby Orphanage is RIGHT THERE.
They would have to send a jew back to bush wack his mom. That may be a better solution.
The best solution is to approach him during his artist phase. Mentor/sponsor him. Become his patron. Intoduce meth early. Let the meth do the work.
Adolf
Wir müssen kochen
because she probably uggo
I'd imagine his mother likely shared similar beliefs?
Gotta love the heteronormativity on this post. Why fuck the mother? Why not go back in time and fuck Hitler and make him fall in love with me? All hail homo-hitler!
Red Alert
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