Pythagorean Theorem Found On Clay Tablet 1,000 Years Older Than Pythagoras
https://www.iflscience.com/pythagorean-theorem-found-on-clay-tablet-1000-years-older-than-pythagoras-70934Open linkView original on lemmy.ml656
Comments73https://www.iflscience.com/pythagorean-theorem-found-on-clay-tablet-1000-years-older-than-pythagoras-70934Open linkView original on lemmy.ml
What I would like to know is if tablets like this are being scanned digitally into three dimensions so that they can be reproduced. I feel like everything we find from antiquity needs to be scanned this way. With humans constantly going to war destroying history, I'd hate the idea of losing things like this forever.
UPDATE: And thus a journey down the interwebs rabbit hole begins. I need better internet and PC to check this out more later, but answering my own question, here's the entrance to the rabbit hole should others wish to venture with a few examples:
Didn’t all kinds of antiquities get destroyed in Iraq? Totally irreplaceable stuff.
As you alluded, probably common in many places. How sad.
Most recently I remember it happening really really badly within Syria. Very intentional destruction. But yes, it happens all the time--Iraq included. With the technology we have now, we can preserve a lot of it (digitally at least).
I hate how it's so damn hard to find these things and yet so easy to destroy it.
A lot was destroyed but a lot of it was looted and and sold to sleazy collectors. Remember when the guy who owns Hobby Lobby got caught buying looted artifacts?
Still horrible, obviously, but at least there’s some hope looted items will be recovered.
I wonder how many artifacts could be recovered if we could search all the rich people mansions...
Yea ISIS and other extremist groups like to destroy evidence of their ancestor’s greatness for some reason.
Lesser sons of lesser sons
I recall there was at least one location which was 3D scanned and photographed in detail before ISIS destroyed it, so at least not all of it is lost.
https://www.fastcompany.com/3052498/these-3d-scans-are-digitally-saving-ancient-monuments-before-isis-blows-them-up
https://apnews.com/general-news-travel-arts-and-entertainment-dbca5e23519f44c4a881c9cd69f41cd6
Oh man.
It's only recently that the idea of "archaeology" has been a thing. Before then there were only "antiquarians" which were just looters.
Often they had royal backers. There's a podcast series called "stuff the British stole"
There's pretty well documented instances in the 1800s in Egypt, and pompeii.
Honestly the amount of amazing stuff that has just been "collected" is just eye watering.
That puts some of my own knowledge into perspective :)
There's also the https://cdli.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/about Obviously, losing a dimension isn't great but still pretty cool
I knew Pythagoras was smart but I never knew he invented time travel. So cool!
I took the opposite tack.
You ain't shit, Pythagoras! You just wrote it down, you didn't figure it out, you absolute fucking fraud. We're taking your immortality back!
Quick! Change all the textbooks to “clay tablet theorem”!
Why not call it the Summerian Theorem ? Or Arabic/Persian/Philistine Triangulation Theorem ?
And he invented plagiarism too!
nah he probably stole that as well.
Poor poor Plagiar, everything he invented people stole and took credit for.
The Plagiarian theorem is a real bummer.
This makes a strong case on the discovery side of the discovery vs. invention controversy.
Ironically, my dad idolized Pythagoras and the notion of discovering a scientific fundamental to be remembered for thousands of years, for which the secret is not to actually do science, but raise a cult of scientists who attribute their inventions to you. Like Thomas Edison.
*cough* Elon Musk *cough*
Edison, Watson/Crick, Musk, Jobs....I hope today it's much harder to get away with being an idea stealing tool bag since the internet has competent archivers, sans working under a company that owns anything you make.
As in turns out, Watson and Crick may not have actually stolen anything from Rosalind Franklin after all. If you're interested, I found an article I read regarding it about a year back. A couple of researchers provide some interesting info and context that make the original data stealing narrative less certain.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/rosalind-franklin-dna-structure-watson-crick
It was most of the Greeks. We credit Democritus with atomism even though the Greeks said it came from an earlier Phoenician, Mochus of Sidon. Even Democritus's teacher doesn't get credit.
Democritus wrote it down in a way that survived.
That's it.
Not really. The Pythagorean theorem (or whomever you want to credit for it) assumes plane geometry. It’s not true in general.
Plane geometry is the invention that makes all of the math work. The earth is not a flat plane (not even close to flat pretty much anywhere). If you want to do Pythagorean-like calculations between cities on earth, for example, you’ll get a much more accurate result with spherical geometry operating on geodesics. Unfortunately, spherical triangles not obey the Pythagorean theorem!
🎶 They say Thomas Edison he’s the man to bring us into this century
And that man is me…
Cool but is there a better source on this than "I fucking love science"?
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/jt.2009.16
This paper was sourced in the article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IM_67118
Wikipedia, Springer is even worse, the company of tabloid press.
"Springer Science" (scientific journals and books) is not to be confused with "Axel Springer" (Bild, Welt, politico).
But is from the same group, like Nestle in food.
No, one is Axel Springer (tabloid shit), the other is Julius Springer (science stuff, founded around 100 years before the other Springer), they're not related.
To cite the famous cabaret artist Volker Pispers talking about the Bild gives a good impression in what it is:
No? As far as I can see they have no connection.
Cuneiform scripts were frequently coppied by scribes, so the theorem could be even older
A handful of people can be credited with discovering the theorem prior to Pythagoras, this isn't the first time this has come up, and incidentally there is almost no evidence to suggest Pythagoras did.
Good to know! TBH, I'm specifically excited to see it was present in the fertile crescent. I really like clay tablets.
Quite possible. Ancient Greeks really liked Akkadians.
I'm not sure I understand this statement? Isn't that what the article says?
Oh, right.
I think that this theorem is at least as old as the pyramids.
The recent "Fall of Civilizations" podcast talks a lot about the history of the pyramids. They may still have known a lot about geometery, but the slopes and angles involved in the pyramid building seem to have been trial and error as much as anything
A few days ago I was building a Lego set and had to go back 10 steps because of a mistake and that made me very angry.
The pyraamids are way more complex and accurate as been build only by trial and error. It's architects knew exactly what they were doing and also geometric theorema way more complex as the one of "Phytagoras", as shown also in other ancient buildings, which are still difficult to reproduce by modern architects.
What makes you say that? I'm not an expert. Accurate geometry or not, the pyramids are pretty cool. What about them means it couldn't have been trial and error?
https://www.si.edu/spotlight/ancient-egypt/pyramid
Yes, the bent pyramid, but that say nothing, maybe simply a design of an bad architect. They always exist, even today.
There are records of why it was bent though. It was one of the first pyramids. The king wanted it very tall and steep. he ended up being burried in a pyramid with less slope. Do you have any archeological evidence of complex geometry being used?
Again, the pyramids are an impressive feat of craftsmanship and the organization of labor, but does that mean they employed the pythagorean theorem?
They may very well have known geometry, or at least developed during the course of their civilization but I don't think the pyramids represent sufficient evidence for them definitely knowing the pythagorean theorem
edit: also if you haven't heard the podcast, i recommend it. It's pretty cool
I thought it was pretty well established that Pythagoras didn't invent it, he was just the leader of a Math and Murder cult so he stole it
"Math and Murder Cult" sounds metal as hell. I'd join.
math murder cult = my new band
Send me a demo. Or hell I'll play bass
Simmer down Hulk Hogan.
Right on brotha
Damn this is really cool. I always thought stuff like this must go back way farther - it's not like humans have gotten significantly smarter in the last 1000 years, we just don't have many records going way back
I think it’s actually difficult for people to comprehend that we are no smarter than people from thousands of years ago. We just have all this externalized knowledge available to us. Along with our wealth of technology. So much technology.
I think there's also a change in perspective for the average person. I was watching premodernist on YouTube and he mentioned that people didn't used to think about technology and inventing/improving stuff all the time like we do - that there was a perception for a long time that life is what it is, and it had been that way for thousands of years and there was no reason to think it would be anything else.
I bet Pythagoras had substandard copper too
Pythagoras has superior copper. All other thagoras has inferior copper.
This is one of the reasons why we shouldn't name things after people.
This, and the fact that most stuff is invented by teams and not individuals. I think our tendency to name after a single person helps keep the hero/savior/Messiah complex of western society alive, and blinds us to the power of community and cooperation. It's like "individual-washing" the past.
Isn't this common knowledge that the Indians knew the theorem well before Pythagorus?
Given what other comments are saying about him (cult leader appropriating works of others), I think the west/europe would do well not to associate themselves with him.
Yes and also I have a hard time believing the builders if the great pyramid didn't understand it in some capacity either. They just didn't have symbolic algebra to express it the way we do .
There are mentions of pythagorian triplets in pyramid era Egypt, and in all fairness, ancient Greeks didn't have symbolic algebra either - it is a fairly recent form of expression.
And, as far as I know, ancient Indians were actually writing mathematical expressions in full prose form - word problems et al.
I feel like at this point I've seen this story in 1,000 year old reposts.
What a classic situation. Some hype man taking credit.
And garden of eden as well as the story with a baby in a basket in Nil, are already in Atrahasis epos, from which Gilgamesh epos copied btw.
people joined a cult because of this theorem. that must be awkward
yah but pythagoras is the new bob
Ok so
because understanding the history of our technology gives anthropologists a better way to determine what we were capable of in our earliest stages of civilization. because understanding the history of us is important to understanding who we are. do you really not see the value in knowledge?
Someone is lost!