Wisconsin judge sides with 11-year-old trans girl over her right to use school toilets
A district judge in Wisconsin has sided with an 11-year-old trans girl over her use of the girls’ toilets and temporarily blocked school officials from preventing her access.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/14/wisconsin-judge-trans-girl-school-toilets/Open linkView original on lemmy.ml1186
Comments494
Elaborate? In what way are they so different that they wouldn't also apply for the comment I quoted?
Woah... you weren't being sarcastic? Why? What is your logic?
Good! Republicans need to get over their obsession with trans children's genitals.
my parents angrily forbid me to do drugs or have sex and begged me not to drink to excess. Guess which activities I regularly engaged in.
I was threatened, beaten up, choked out and tortured in school for being "gay" (actually bi), and yet my (romantic) attraction to any and all genders even preceeded my understanding of any sexuality.
not my parents, not my fellow students, not exes, not internet strangers, not religion and not any form of media has managed to change my sexuality.
I too was vehemently forbidden, but I managed to understand how bad drugs and excessive drinking are and felt no need to rebel by "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"
Two people can go through the same environment and have completely different outcomes
Sometimes people don't do it to rebel, they just do it to enjoy themselves. Sometimes it's self-destructive, sometimes not.
As you say, different people do things in different ways.
What makes you think that drugs are bad?
Exactly this. Letting anything take over your life will cause harm.
Harm reduction is a thing y'know, anything can be enjoyed with the right precautions.
All of the (illegal) drugs I ever used made my life better in some way. Whenever somebody tells me that they've never used drugs, I just feel sorry for them, because they've missed out on some great experiences. Of course, there are a few people with unusual brains who should avoid anything psychoactive, but I think the vast majority of people would benefit from it.
Autsist here with trauma, I am a prime example of someone who probably shouldnt do drugs. Alcohols have weird effects let alone anything else. Though all my friends are convinced ill eventually do peyote for some reason.
Every illegal drug, and many legal ones, I've seen used have made the users' lives horrible as a result, and sometimes they've made my life horrible despite me not using them. How about instead of doing drugs you find a real solution to life's problems?
And, to further your point, anything can be harmful if taken to excess, no matter how seemingly harmless, or even necessary. An excess of water consumption can be deadly. Somewhere along the way, certain substances were just chosen as immoral because humans seem to feel a deep seated need to both judge others, and control others.
They are addictive, damaging to the body and mind, destroy your life, and are used as unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Nonsense. All of that can be true, but the vast majority of casual drug use never becomes problematic.
So is food in some circumstances, what’s your ooint
One can get you years in federal prison.
What planet do you live on? Do you even know any trans people?
I know a LOT of trans people, and none of their parents were particularly happy about their choice to transition. At best they were begrudgingly supportive.
Nothing is pushing us to transition. Quite the opposite, infact.
There are infact people who groom kids into trans ideologies. Primarily teachers. I'm not saying it's common but it isn't a lie. Additionally at such a young age kids are absolutely still finding themselves and transtrenders are a thing due to the extra attention you get these days.
How is educating children "grooming"? Do you say that they are being "groomed" into mathematical ideology by math teachers?
Do you think that children shouldn't be taught about trans people?
Conservatives (given how anti-intellectual they've become) would probably suggest that non-religious education is grooming.
I think it's very difficult, in practice, to "teach" young children about gender identity without falling back on stereotypes and gender conformity.
Since an 8-year-old girl doesn't have overtly feminine characteristics like breasts or wide hips to feel physically uncomfortable with, how do you explain what it means to "feel like a boy"? The examples I've seen in elementary schools revert to showing a boy in a dress as "feeling like a girl"...when really, preferences for toys or clothing shouldn't determine your gender or cis/trans-ness. (And even at older ages, being uncomfortable with newly-sprouted breasts or hating periods doesn't make you a trans boy, of course.)
I also think there is danger in quizzing children about this at a very young age and then taking them literally. Some of my coworkers have "transitioned" their toddlers and pre-schoolers ... but these kids are still young enough to identify as cats and dogs and fairies, depending on the day. In this case, the adults aren't intentionally grooming. But it's likely that they're asking leading questions and misinterpreting childhood play through their own lens of having an established gender identity.
IMO, we'd all benefit from taking gender a bit less seriously.
What's the danger? If a kid decides that they're a different gender, and then changes their mind back later, what harm has been done?
I think it's healthy for kids to experiment when they're still figuring out their identity. The harm comes when adults stigmatize this stuff so that a kid thinks that they're bad or wrong for being different.
I agree that it's healthy to experiment. At four years old, I was a "boy" whenever I played Peter Pan. And as a teen, I happened to go through a rather butch phase when I could easily be confused for a boy. I'm thankful that my parents weren't at all hung up on gender conformity, and neither was the community.
But if parents make a big deal out of changing a kid's name and pronouns and clothing, and swapping all the gender-stereotypical toys of one gender for another, and joining pride groups and making it a central part of the family's identity ... I think that creates a LOT of pressure for that child to continue in a trans identity (even though it's pretty unlikely their toddler was actually trans to begin with).
Why not dress however you like, play with whatever toys you like, but hold off on the assumption that gender non-conformity = transgender child? Or hold off on trying to "teach" these concepts to a little person who's perfectly content just eating dirt and playing tag?
My nephew right now is two and a half and pretty oblivious of gender. He shows no objection with being referred to with male pronouns, and yet his daycare teachers refuse to use he/him pronouns until he "comes out as cis" (in the meantime, all children are "they"). The parents in this community also fly flags and post messages like "trans children are sacred" and "bless the queer kids" constantly. It might sound lovely, and it's meant to be inclusive ... but children are quick to pick up on favoritism and which kids are considered special. In addition to that general sentiment, if parents keep asking, "Are you a boy or a girl? It's ok if you feel like a girl, sweetie" ... then eventually kids will parrot back whatever terms they hear, or whatever they think will earn a positive response. (Case in point: if you ask my nephew in an enthusiastic voice, he may confirm his identity as "cat" and "dog" and "cement mixer".)
In short: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Don't create complexity where there wasn't any before.
My guess is that in the vast majority of cases, adults who officially "transition" their very young children are simply projecting their own desire for ally-ship. And my main gripe remains: if teachers and counselors continue to conflate gender non-conformity with transgenderism, then clearly they aren't qualified to "teach" what it is in the first place. Let boys in dresses and girls with short hair be just that, without probing for more.
I wish we could all just shut up and not give a shit about other peoples gender
Weird, cause I grew up with authority figures slamming back the f-slur, disparaging gays, and promoting straight movies, books, and media. Somehow I still turned out trans and pan. Weird. Weeeird. You'd think I'd have "learned" to be straight and cis with all of the grooming I got...
The same was said about gay people years ago and guess what? It wasn't true, because of course it wasn't. Informing kids and teens of the existence of other sexualities won't convince them to adopt them.
The increase in transgender youth can be mainly attributed to the increased acceptance and knowledge of the issue among the younger generations. Simple as that.
VERY few people would ever do it for attention, since the attention you get is extremely often negative. Most transgender people are terrified of telling others they're trans because of the reaction they'd get. The popularity argument is simply unrealistic.
How long would it take to convince you that you were trans?
I remember when I was hanging out with some of the gays (I keep them as friends to keep up appearances). Before, I was always the alpha. I could swing by any bar and leave with the hottest lib in my F150. By the end of the night she'd be screaming for her daddy and fully supportive of Trump. I loved converting libs to MAGA-wearing breeders.
But then I hung around the gays, and something inside of me just fundamentally flipped: I love penis inexplicably and wearing the latest Hillary 2024 fair-trade organic cotton shirts I got for volunteering. I've never seen such a marvelous transformation!
Everything you said is wrong, but let's start with an easy question to identify your bias.
What percent of the population do you think is trans and what percent do you think identifies as trans incorrectly?
Used to be something like 2%. Doesn't mean it still isn't but self identification has risen by over double.
Trans people have usually made up less than 1% of the general population historically.
Yeah, good luck with that. I work at a school where me and my colleagues have put a great deal of effort in educating the kids we teach (grades 1-4) about what LGBTQ+ means (we're actually certified by a LGBTQ+ organization). Most of the kids could tell you what it means to be transgender, some of the ways in which LGBTQ+ people are being discriminated against and in which countries you could go to prison for being gay. Most of them also agree that people should be able to identify as whatever gender they want and that everyone else should respect that.
Despite of this, not a single kid has ever shown any desire to identify as any other gender than their biological one except for the kids who already identified as trans; the older one clearly saying they're trans and the younger one repeatedly saying things like "Why does it matter if I feel like a boy or a girl" and that they're fine with any pronouns when other kids have asked them what gender they are. We have some of immigrant kids who have trouble with pronouns and often the kids get angry with them for using the wrong pronouns ("I'm a BOY, not a girl!") and, despite of our best efforts, you can often hear them saying things like "We boys are so much better than girls". Good fucking luck convincing an 8 year old that they should identify as any other gender than the one they identify with.
There's a difference between telling a kid trans people exist and telling them those feeling of being uncomfortable in their body is being trans and not just normal puberty.
Speaking of actual grooming that occurs ... Grooming and the Christian Politics of Innocence
How about both being wrong?
Who was making the decisions when I was a teenager that didn’t know transgender men existed, but I was still making plans to get a mastectomy and hysterectomy due to dysphoria when I was an adult?
Essentially from the time I grew breasts and started having periods I was determined to do it, even though I didn’t have the words to explain why I wanted it and everyone I told reacted with bafflement. My parents and community were southern baptist, there aren’t many less trans supportive environments in the US. Surely if trans kids are all groomed into it I shouldn’t have been able to come up with this on my own, right?
That's a pretty dumb saying, where did you hear that?
Probably Tate or someone similar 🙄
There's another saying: if you spout transphobic bullshit, you may be a redneck.
(With apologies to redneck allies)
Are the meta users already bleeding into the fediverse? Go back to meta and enjoy your anti human echo chamber.
Conservatives are like vegan cats, fed the wrong shit so it's all they can regurgitate.
There's a saying about people like you. "you're an ignorant cunt".
my parents literally did not let me transition despite me begging them to. you're wrong lol.
also (full offence) only someone who's brain dead could possibly see a connection between those two things
Read the WPATH Standards of Care. Decisions are made by the child, with the support and approval of the parents and a team of medical and mental health professionals.
Not remotely compariable
Trans toddlers, ya, but 11 years old is puberty age, that's old enough to experiment with it
You are absolutely correct That's what I was thinking of. Regardless, as long as they don't give puberty blockers to children, it should be fine. But there are certainly consequences to children merely experimenting and being told that's exactly the way they are.
Why the fuck did a mod remove my post? Are you guys so delicate you can't take the tiniest bit of disagreement?
As a father of two elementary school aged girls, I can tell you that they don't give a shit. They would rather be supportive of their friend. People who insist on perpetuating outdated concepts of gender roles and modesty are on the wrong side of history.
It is good your daughter's are good with this. Would be nice if everyone was. But do you think all the girls or even the majority are comfortable that need to use same bathroom if they know someone might be biological male?
When I'm using the restroom, the last thing I care about is which genitals the person in the other stall has. Why would this be a concern?
Honest question, if this is the take why do transgender people need to use the opposite sex bathroom? Why does it matter?
I'm not transgender, so you probably should ask them.
What I do know is that this is a major issue for them, to the point where some of them develop bladder issues from avoiding the restroom out of fear of being bullied. When people tell me that something is causing them to suffer, I tend to believe them, unless there's some compelling evidence otherwise.
When I was in college, I knew a transman. One day, I walked into the men's restroom as he was walking out, and one of the other men in the restroom turned to his friend and said, "What's she doing in here?" (Meaning the transman.) Now imagine if you had to deal with the possibility of being bullied that way (or worse!) every time you wanted to use the restroom.
Preface: am not trans, but have thought about and read many things from transppl about everything going on in their heads bc its still sth i struggle with
This will also vary based on the individual, and there's probably at least one transperson out there that doesn't care. But for those that do, I'd think it comes down to it being one more aspect where they're put into a box they really don't feel like they belong in. Something that on its own would likely not be a big deal, but if you're already trying to 1) get away from everything your birth sex has confined you to and 2) try to feel as close to your actual gender as possible in every day life, it can make a difference.
Really I'm just confused why bathrooms are gender seperated in the first place though, we have stalls for a reason?
Some girls have a problem with it. Should we ignore their concerns? I wish everyone had no issues at all like you. If that was the case we could just build single coed bathrooms. Possibly that is what we should do from an early age. Get rid of the male/female bathroom entirely so that it is normal to all use the same bathroom and gender identity would no longer matter.
Yes. The concerns of transphobes (and other bigots) should be ignored.
So if you oppose your automatically a phobe. Got it.
Yes, we should ignore them. Just like we ignore homophobes that have a problem sharing with gays, or racists that have a problem sharing with back people.
Some people have a problem with using the same bathroom a black person uses. Should we care?
N=2
I am speaking anecdotally, but in my daily interactions at my kids daycamp, my kids views are pretty much on par with the rest of their peers. There's a boy at their daycamp who likes to wear dresses. He's treated no differently than any of the other kids. They have unisex bathrooms because the ratio of girls to boys is out of whack, so it makes more sense.
My point is that kids today don't care. They don't have the same hangups that we were raised with. And why should they?
My boys (19 and 16) are the same way. If "John" comes out to them and says that they prefer being called "Jane," my boys immediately accept it completely and start calling her with the correct name and pronouns.
My boys regard trans (or any other facet of LGBTQ) as the same level of information regarding a person as "they have black hair" or "they have blue eyes." It's a basic fact about them, but not a reason to judge the person.
Now, if the person acts like a jerk, then my boys will definitely judge them.
Is actually love to see a survey of different age groups and see how much they care about this, but this sort of feedback is neither constructive nor useful.
Your thought is valid.
But what I wanted to tell you is that based upon my kids, their friends, and other people's kids that I know and talk to - very VERY few of them give a single fuck about this sort of thing. Like surprisingly few.
It's refreshing, because it's truly no big deal.
That's a you problem, and it's up to you to get over.
Your problem is “My way or the highway”
It's called human rights. You can either accept them, or move to a country that does not value them.
Unless your are a Female
The majority of people think your transphobia is disgusting and not something we want perpetuated. It's a myth to think your way of thinking is anything normal. Most people don't think about other people's genitals as much as you do. We just go pee and never give other people any thought.
Please change your path before you're too far gone.
The cult had spoken
For someone with Uncle Iroh as your username, you sure aren't as understanding as your namesake. I think you're more like Zuko at the beginning of his journey; only thinking about himself and his needs.
Imagine being so triggered by someone using a stall near you. As a man, I wouldn't care if a woman came into the gents and used a stall. Why would I care? Anyone in the bathroom is there to do their business and get out, not to look at your little fella.
Isn't this just an argument against your point of view? Most people I've ever talked to don't care as long as the trans individual is minding their own business, why should the majority conform to a very small minority who is uncomfortable? Your argument is the same one made to support segregated bathrooms.
All that’s being asked is that people mind their business in public restrooms. See someone who looks a little different? Cool, wash your hands and leave. If a trans person is being a creep in a bathroom, kick them out the same way you would kick out anyone else being a creep. The other 99.9% of the time, just mind your own business and let people pee and wash their hands in peace.
Would you be okay with a man using the women's bathroom if he isn't trans?
Alright, you lost me.
You don't have to conform. You have to learn that it makes no difference at all.
Shame you're besmirching the name of Uncle Iroh. He would calmly pour some tea and tell you, "How odd, in that situation, that it is you who needs to grow a pair."
how uncle iroh('s voice actor) actually responds to transphobes:
I read that in his voice
I am confident you don't realize the full implications of what you're saying, so please don't take this as an attack, but would you also support "black only" restrooms for this exact same reason? If not, why not?
Why do either matter in the bathroom? How does the sex of someone else change how you pee or poop?
There are already laws in place to prevent people from harassing others in the bathroom, regardless of sex. I just don't understand. There are SO many contradictions in the belief that banning trans people from the bathroom of their choosing is even worth discussion.
Are you worried about girls and women being uncomfortable in the bathroom around someone who looks like a guy? Ok, so if a ban is in place, they now have to share the bathroom with trans men who look a hell of a lot more like a guy than a trans woman.
Is it about preventing people who may be attracted to others from sharing space in the bathroom? First, gross, it's a bathroom; only pervs go looking for any kind of sexual gratification there (and again, there's already laws that cover this). Second, gay people exist, so it's kind of a moot point to ban trans people.
It just seems like any concern used to justify a trans bathroom ban would still exist even if a ban was in place. I mean, unless of course the only concern is "trans people have too many rights in our society" in which case, kindly, fuck right off.
and it's worth mentioning that there is no genital check before entering a bathroom. An "anti-trans bathroom" law would likely also get wielded against masculine women and effeminate men who are not transgender.
None of it makes any sense when you take 30 seconds to consider it.
Yeah, laws already cover all the bases. Thats why I think the entire idea of not letting trans people use their bathroom of choice is derogatory.
Are they? What if someone still feels weird when a Black person walks into the bathroom with them? Should we take that person's feeling into account and simply give Black people their own space where they can be comfortable and let everyone else be comfortable too?
If no: why not?
Racism and transphobia are 2 completely comparable things.
I think the point is that the kids don't care and the only people complaining are the adults who don't feel completely comfortable.
I have a friend who's son is transitioning, not a single of the kids at his school give a single shit. Even more so they say things to their parents like, "how can you be so binary" and such like. The kids don't care it's the parents who are uncomfortable and projecting it unto the kids.
Bullies would. But not so much because they're transphobic, but because they just look for anything that could be a soft spot to abuse.
You know what happens when I'm uncomfortable about something? I try and look at why. If I feel that the reasons are because of my own personal insecurities and triggers, I try and deconstruct them and find reasons and solutions to them. What I don't do is project those insecurities on others, and force them to conform to my point of view.
Hell yeah, well said.
You don't see a problem with needing to build a 3rd bathroom in every place that only has 2 bathrooms, and would single out those who use it as an "other" to anyone seeing them use it?
Build a 3rd bathroom is still a hilarious take to me. No the solve is Female only and Unisex. That way you don't need to build anything.
Why? What kind of "weird"?
Fr 💀 does he think his friend is going to sexually assault him? His mindset proves he has a huge lack of respect for his friend.
I wonder if his friend knows how he feels. I feel bad for him. Imagine the first person you're comfortable opening up to feeling this way.
I bet his friend doesn’t exist
It sounds suspiciously like “I have a black friend” and that black friend is a white guy who did blackface once
Stop looking at your friends genitals in the bathroom. Problem solved. Fuck your comfort, no one cares about your feelings. Let people use the bathroom for fucks sake.
“That’s a small sample size. Here’s my anecdote with an even smaller sample size!”
They don't want to feel different and "other" though, which a separate bathroom would absolutely do. The kids don't care, the kids don't have your old school hangups. So let's not breed new hangups, let's let the old ones die.
As to sports, we get to decide how things are organized. Sports rules aren't handed down from on high. We can change the sorting of genders to make it fair and inclusive. We can experiment with different ways of sorting until we find that correct balance. We don't have to cling to the old ways just because it's what we're uses to.
the kids are all right
Cool. I hope you don't misconstrue that to think that it happens everywhere.
So you think we should ignore the concerns of less confident girls and boys that are uncomfortable with it?
I think that transphobia should be addressed, but not by taking away rights from trans people.
Please just either go back to reddit or go outside and get a social life
The kids don't give a fuck. It's the backwards parents who can't get their mind out of the dark ages that are 'uncomfortable'.
Can u honestly imagine being incensed by a fellow human being going to the bathroom? It's ludicrous.
Wouldn't it be choosing the bathroom?
I don't think people would be 'incensed' if this person went to the boy's room.
No, instead they would be like "Why is this girl in the boys' bathroom".
lol
Something separate, but equal?
Alexa, define "segregation"
Tbh this segregation is also stupid as well, it’s completely possible to make non-gendered bathrooms that are safe spaces. High traffic areas with to the floor stalls that are basically rooms are the best option. Low traffic areas are the issue however. But segregation is overall pretty ridiculous even for bathrooms, and implies a failure of our culture to minimize predators.
There have to be millions of restaurants, cafes and other places that already have unisex bathrooms, and apparently that's never been a problem. Weird, huh?
Exactly. The Red Rocks Amphitheater in Colorado does exactly this and it makes so much sense. Also by far the nicest bathrooms I’ve ever seen at a concert venue
Yes, but that's not an option here, because in response to a suggestion that she use a non-gendered bathroom 'she had suffered “emotional distress and mental-health effects, including thoughts of self-harm, nightmares, embarrassment, social isolation and stigma, and lowered self-esteem”' That's copied directly from the article.
Non-gendered bathrooms would appear to be the ultimate solution here, so obvs this girl's going to be majorly traumatised every time she needs a wazz in that setup.
Because most of them are happy to use one of the existing options you've already mentioned, it is people like you who have the problem, so why shouldn't you be the ones to be segregated?
Why do you want to other trans people?
There's alot of other ways you could have divided bathroom use but you ignored race, occupation, sexual orientation, housing status, handedness, whether they support the Yanks or the Mets, if-or-not they wear flip flops, number 1 or number 2, time since their last covid test, attractiveness, their tact when sniffed, and dick size.
Could have segregated bathrooms by any the above categories but you chose to suggest a bathroom for (presumably cisgender) Man, a bathroom for (presumably cisgender) Women, and an "Other" bathroom occupied by people who are not just not men and not women (whose absence of a space "for" them is a salient if side point) but people who very much fit within the binary categories "Man" and "Woman" but you still want separate, with the odd, ends, and enbys, from the Cis People bathroom.
Think about why it is you want a "Cis People Bathroom".
Don't even think about the invasion of genital privacy or general propriety required to effect the border you wish to erect.
Think about why this is a thing you want.
Why you want people, who have genders—which are every bit as real as yours—, to have to expel the semi-solid remains of food and wastes and toxins filtered from their blood in a separate room from you.
What is it about these people that makes their shit stink more (or less) enough to warrant their doing so separately?
Surely it's not as simple as "Their gender turned out differently than a 13-second-old genital exam told them that it should, for which they need be punished."
Respect if that's it. "Fuck Trans People." Not the way I'd go with things, but it's an ethos.
I don't think that's it, though.
You seem nice enough I doubt naked bigotry compels your actions.
You seem well-informed enough—further—to know just how expensive a "fuck you" a third for every second bathroom would be just to keep a percentage point the populace apart 'pon poop and piss.
So if it's not naked bigotry, and it wouldn't be very effective bigotry even if it was, what is it that makes you think trans people need to not be around people who aren't trans during the 15/1440 minutes a day the average ass spends on a toilet?
You and I both know they have no answer.
Why should we? Because they make you uncomfortable?
Why should we legislate what other people do based on your discomfort? They're not trying to change the way you live your life, they're not getting in your face by using a bathroom (unless you're blocking their path for some reason), they're just trying to live their life to the best of their ability. Why is that so discomforting for you?
Stalls are already “segregated.” Who cares if you have to wash your hands next to someone who looks a little different?
So who cares if I as a man go into a girls' bathroom?
Because trans people are not a third, distinct gender. They are male or female.
Not all of them.
Should make sure to have separate drinking fountains, too, just to be safe.
So did the people who made Jim Crow laws.
Holy shit, you're not being sarcastic? Why? What is your logic?
You have to be trolling at this point, he alley-ooped it and you dunked the on yourself 💀
They're dense enough to be considered a singularity at this point.
They're 100% a Dutch troll and should be properly ignored by the majority in here. Like someone else said, such a disappointment given the username.
Yeah, either really confused and ignorant or just trolling. Either way, fuck that guy.
do you hear yourself right now?!
The 11 year old girl the judge sided with is one of the "little girls being uncomfortable with it".
I wish I could boost this again
I got you.
💜
Right click "new private window".
Let's not advocate for vote manipulation.
Can you really say that was advocating?
I didn't Nathaniel Demerest anyone into wishing they could do things.
I just told a person how they could do a thing they're already expressed a wish to do.
"I just told them a good place to rob and gave them a gun to do it, officer, I didn't do anything wrong!"
Lol, good one.
This discomfort usually comes up if you expect a trans kid (most likely trans girl) to show their genitals (usually a dick) to you or your kids. That does not happen. This is what conservatives want you to think though when they ban trans kids (or even trans people of all ages) from using the toilet matching their gender.
This doesn't happen because most of the time trans people are not comfortable with their genitals anyway. But even if they are: They don't show their genitals because they want to take a dump in the toilet.
Besides: I find the confidence of conservatives truly remarkable that they think that a trans woman will go around and show them their dick. Conservatism is not sexy for us at all, nevermind sexy enough that we get naked on the spot.
You know what is sexy enough to make us undress on the spot? Consent! There's nothing more sexy than a consenting partner!
Also what dismalnow said.
It's about the discomfort of adults who don't want to think about things that are different than what they learned is "normal" when they were growing up.
11 year olds aren't generally the ones giving that many fucks. Remember that most boys have only just entered puberty by that age, literally no one reasonable is expecting the bag of hormones that is, say, a 16 year old.
I'm honestly really fucking disappointed someone would take the username uncle_iroh and just use it to be a malignant cunt.
completely off-topic but even with all his good qualities, Iroh was actually kinda sexist and probably contributed a great deal to Azula's aggression and compulsion to prove herself as a worthy successor to the throne of the fire nation.
In what fucking world do you live in where anything he just said would justify being a "malignant cunt". Happy to see this place is just reddit 2.0.
I agree actually. I'm hoping they're just misguided.
If you dont like it you could always leave instead of being a lil bitch about it.
So you're just a cunt. Glad we cleared that up.
I work with kids. They only give a fuck about shit like this if their parents make a huge deal about it. Trust me, they do not fucking care otherwise.
I'm a cisgender male and would much rather take a shit in a stall next to a dude with a pussy and a beard than take a piss at a urinal next to a woman with a dick, and I think women would probably rather take a piss next to someone who looks like a woman than next to someone who looks like a man. As long as the transgender person in question is dressed as their identified gender then I highly doubt any reasonable person will give a shit about their presence in the bathroom, unless women like to inspect eachother's genitals in there or something.
Exactly what is dressed as their gender require? Are you suggesting transgender girl has to wear a dress or makeup or some defining cloth? If she decides to come to school in jeans and button shirt she must use the boys bathroom that day?
That they dress how you'd expect their gender to dress
As long as women look like women and men look like men in the bathrooms, I won't bat an eye
This ain't 1953, women are allowed to wear jeans and shirts now. I just don't wanna take a piss next to someone who looks like a woman, is that too much to ask?
Again what exactly makes a women look like a women? What exactly does she have to do or wear to make it acceptable to you?And when did a trans person have to conform to yours or my opinion of what visually determines his or her gender?
The point I am making is that this is not black and white. It is rather rich in that you are fine providing a trans person confirms to your idea alone of what is acceptable.
Plenty of things. Hairstyle, specifics regarding their types of clothing, mannerisms, etc.
You know it when you see it, that's all I can say.
If a trans person wishes to be recognized as whatever gender they identify as, then that means that unless they carry around a sign saying "I AM A WOMAN" or "I AM A MAN" 24/7, they're gonna have to conform to society's expectations of how their identified gender is supposed to look and act. Otherwise, people will be made uncomfortable if they look like they don't belong. Most women wouldn't want to share a bathroom with someone with a beard who wears blue jeans and a tank top, and I don't want to share a bathroom with someone with a skirt and a ponytail.
Good lord they are only 11 years old. Who cares what bathroom they use.
Make them all unisex. If it's a large facility with a bunch of stalls or a small facility for only one person, make them all unisex.
I went to a club with only one, huge, unisex bathroom once. It was.. like any other bathroom. Seeing people of the opposite gender wasn't really a concern anyways.
Since it was a rather yuge bathroom for a yuge club, if there was any shenanigans going on there would've been plenty of witnesses to call it out.
There was even one guy who went piss at a urinal, and started to leave without washing his hands. All the other guys started shouting at the guy to was his hands lol.
I support this.
The Grand Unified Toilet Theory
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You could go take a shit together on your first date
Yes. And get rid of that creepy door gap while you're at it
I hate those gaps
It’s only America that has pervert friendly toilet gaps.
To be fair, there is safety in numbers and consequently I also see a benefit to combining them. I'm a dude, and I would rather walk down a busy pedestrian mall than a sketchy half-empty street or an urban trail on a moonless night.
Same thing with bathrooms. I imagine women feel better in a bathroom where other women and other people are present and aware, vs a nearly empty bathroom where a creep could walk in and isolate them at any moment. I've been to places with large unisex bathrooms (hot springs, spas, etc.) and there's enough people in there that no one is gonna try anything stupid/inappropriate without being immediately noticed. Bathroom troublemakers are a small subset of the universally large group of people who have to use the restroom anyway.
I only support gender-segregated bathrooms because I don't want a bunch of chicks clogging up the mensroom with their slow pissing/shitting/bloody paper towels on the floor. :D I am unreasonable and self-centered, but anyone who has ever been to a concert knows which line is longer.
....so you are going to take away my urinals, my fast turnaround time, and my silence?
They can put urinals in a unisex restroom.
In fact, there are all sorts of things in public restrooms that are unused. For example, the last restroom you visited had a sink where you could have washed your hands.
Oh look this site has a block feature
See how easy it can be to get urinals and silence?
If turnaround time is still a problem, get your prostate checked. Help is available, even for old geezers.
In my hypothetical example, when you pictured stalls, you pictured them with only toilets inside. You didn't even consider that there could be a stall with just a urinal.
You may enjoy sidling to the trough and gazing at your competition, but some of us appreciate not having creeps trying to size us up.
I haven't seen a trough style urinal in a developed nation in my entire life.
You have never been to a stadium bathroom before?
I have not.
You haven't been to the right bars.
That is a distinct possibility.
I've seen them in seven States in the US, also on a trip to Canada. I lived in Germany for a while, and used them there - and Austria.
Maybe you should try traveling and open up that closed mind. Expand those horizons.
I travel monthly for work. Last two months I have been to Germany and South East Asia. Maybe I am just not going out of my way to find the most disgusting toliet system, unlike some people I can mention.
Your urinal privilege has been pissed away.
Right so how do people plan to sell this? "Hey 49% of the population, we are going to make a basic need more difficult for you and you get nothing in return".
You don't have to. Nobody votes on this shit. You just start building buildings with a large number of private, all-gender stalls like we've been doing in limited quantities for a long time. And most wouldn't care that strongly, or might even appreciate the added privacy.
Wow tell me more about this country that has no building codes.
Pretty much only conservatives. They're actually pretty obsessed with thinking about children being raped in bathrooms.
We need to separate the bathrooms by function!
Number ones on the left number twos on the right!
Now the problem with that would be that then people would only use the pissing bathroom, because who would want to poop with other people? I sure wouldn't.
gender neutral bathrooms are the answer here.
most public places have them now, don't get why you can't have one in a school.
In places with large crowds, gender neutral bathrooms (assuming you also mean single-use) don't really work. It causes massive lines.
Not to mention, there's no need. It's a bathroom. Why does anyone care who they pee or poop next to? It seems so silly and arbitrary to me. Just get in, do your thing, wash your hands, and get out. haha
Right? I've been using public restrooms for a long time and I don't recall ever seeing anyone's naughty bits.
..and for me the most ridiculous part of this discussion is that bathrooms have never been a secure space. If some creep wanted to go into a bathroom to harass people, there is literally nothing stopping them. It's not like bathrooms have guarded entrances and now people have a sneaky way to get into a bathroom by pretending to be transgender or something insane like that.
It's literally a manufactured issue to get the GOP electorate terrified, as everything they do is designed to do.
I see you've never had the misfortune of using the circular trough-style urinal where everyone is facing each other and peeing into the middle. Thankfully, they are not very common.
From the Horrible Bathroom Hall of Fame, I present the Mathematical Sciences bathroom at the University of Central Florida:
https://imgur.io/gallery/FJvcZ
What is it with the US and making public toilets as weird as possible? Your freaking walls & doors are bad enough but this is like a piss fountain. I'd expect something like this in maybe a swinger / fetish club or something like that.
It's not a urinal, it's for washing your hands. I've mostly ever seen them in factories where you have shifts coming on and off the clock at the same time so they need to be able to handle a high volume of workers.
That said, I'm not a big fan of the piss walls you get in the UK and Ireland. They always feel awkward to me, but I guess if you're used to it...
LOL when I first saw the pic you posted I thought the sink in the middle was for communal pissing
This is what happens when you have theoretical scientists in charge of bathrooms.
Oh you know what? I think I did have those in elementary school. That was a while ago though.
Yes I hate this kind of shit too. It costs less and somehow might be able to pack more pissers, but it's so weird. Maybe unless you're into staring at other people when you're peeing.
Lol! Those are meant for washing your hands, not for pissing. Although I guess I can imagine a scenario where some genius thinks one is a urinal and somehow the idea catches on. Still pretty funny though.
The best compromise for neutrality and efficiency is to keep gender neutral stalls but also retain an area with urinals which will be much quicker for large numbers of men to pass through then using stalls, and also saves water.
The other consideration would be that the stalls will need to be sufficiently screened that people in them don't feel overlooked or vulnerable (I'm looking at you USA with your weird gappy stall building!).
I'm a big fan of just getting rid of urinals altogether as a man, I'm choosing stalls every time anyway
You son of a bitch
I went to a mixed bathroom in France and had to walk past bare backsides to get to a stall. I don't want to see one guy's ass let alone a whole row of them.
In the US at least people don't generally have their asses hanging out when using urinals.
That's not really a thing in Europe either. I saw it only once in my life, and that was back in school, from some third or second grader or something.
You're supposed to run down the line and slap those butts.
While cheering about your favorite sportsball team.
I was at a concert at Red Rocks Amphitheatre and they had gender neutral single stall bathrooms with a shared sink area. It was great. Sure, there was a line, but there was going to be one anyway. However, it ensured 100% utilization, when potentially one side would have less than 100% usage when the other has a line. It's ideal for places with large crowds.
(The stalls were also well built basically single rooms, not the shitty American stalls with gaps in them.)
It works perfectly, it's just more expensive to construct. In some Nordic countries there are very few places with bathroom stalls, they either have lots of single-use bathrooms or completely walled-in rooms (wall from ground to roof, regular door) with a toilet and then sinks outside to wash your hands. Works in shopping malls, airports, schools (from small elementary schools to huge high-schools, I've never seen one with stalls). The only exceptions I can think of that have stalls are amusement parks, some sport arenas and (ironically) IKEA.
How about single occupancy? No one cares if you use the wrong port-a-potty.
Because it's not cost effective
All this bathroom talk is just a bourgeois plot to make us all rent bathrooms.
You mean like how it used to be in the US decades ago? You very much used to have to pay to use public bathrooms until a bunch of students protested it.
I've never understood why I should care where someone else goes to the bathroom anyways.
Imagine holding in a shit for months as a court determines where you can poop.
The best I can do is 3 days.
I see what you did there.
Wait I think I found a solution the Lemmy no poop challenge...
Just shit in front of the door. Someone will move it to the correct toilet eventually.
While this is welcome news, it's also depressing that we live in a timeline stupid enough that bathroom panics are enough of a thing that there are laws on the books like this to be struck down by judges (and of course, the fact that other judges are likely to reverse this ruling).
I keep asking myself this every time the christofascists win a supreme court case.
The majority of US citizens believe in legal abortion but, hey here we are!
Err... this simply isn't true.
Children are fucking brutal and always looking for ways to put others down. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Remember when we were kids?
Sided with an 11 year old or sided with the law and the 11 year olds rights?
Good point. Shouldn't slaves have just been happy what the majority of people in the south wanted?
This is like the 4th time the state congress has tried pulling this crap and it keeps getting shot down. Meanwhile they don't even consider marijuana legislation even though millions of dollars are going to taxes for other states they have it legalized. So stupid.
A little bit of an overreach here.
I'd like it so we can easily see censored content, so we don't have to scour the modlog to see what happened. Is that possible?
I am annoyed with all the deleted high-activity comments as well.
Bet the school will find some small thing coming out of this to attach to that they will claim have endangered/inconvenienced their life somehow.
The obvious solution is to make available an additional bathroom that is universally available to anyone.
Wouldn't it be their right to choose toilets?
When did you start to believe that you were cis?
What do you mean? What's cis?
Sure, I'll play along, I love educating people that need it :)
"Cis is short for cisgender, which refers to when a person’s gender identity corresponds to their sex as assigned at birth. Cisgender is the opposite of transgender."
Happy to help, but next time, maybe check the dictionary yourself. So, when did you start to believe that you aren't trans?
I looked it up but still didn't understand the question and TBH I'm still not sure if I'm answering the question probably or not but I'll try my best, since as far as I can remember/I never questioned whether I'm cis or trans, in other words, I'm x and never questioned if I'm x or not
If you never questioned, you are then most likely cis. But trans people start questioning it at like 5 or 6 years old. A lot will not find the answer before a long time. Me, I hated my body, hate when people said how much a handsome man I was, I was questioning myself but only find the answer at 16 that I was in fact a trans girl. The vast majority of people are cis so they never question their gender, simply they don't need to do that
Some people don't even know until they're adults, so the question is dumb AF. Not everyone realizes or thinks theyre trans at 11.
Where was I talking about knowing?
Meanwhile I feel like there's a much bigger issue going on. 11 years old? Did they even go through puberty yet?
Why would they need to go through puberty? Did you not know what gender you were before puberty?
Plus, if you figure out you're trans (or might be trans) that young, you'd usually take puberty blockers explicitly to delay puberty until you're a bit older and doctors can be more certain, at which point HRT can be started. Puberty blockers are very safe and reversible, unlike puberty (whether natural puberty or HRT puberty).
You disgrace your user name.
Really, at 11?
Yes? 11 is an age where children often are hitting puberty and if someone is trans, that's when gender dysphoria would become more pronounced.
Well, at what age did you start to believe you were cis?
Bigots are incapable of thinking this way. They only see LGBT+ people as "the other" and themselves as "normal", so they never realize that they themselves at one point figured out their own identity (including both gender and sexuality). They think it's only LGBT+ folks having to figure those things out.
It's bizarre, especially since society does push cisgendered and heterosexual norms at a very early age. Young boys will get asked if they like any girls and they'll constantly be pushed with gender roles and stereotypes for their birth gender. It's so normalized that most folks don't even seem to realize that it happens until confronted with the existence of any alternative (like LGBT+ folks). A reasonable person would examine their biases and realize stuff like "huh, I guess I knew my gender from a young age", but bigots have this irrational hatred for LGBT+ people so they're not willing or capable of this kind of insight. Their brain has to twist logic into justifying the bigotry that they've already concluded on.
Sure, why not?
It's sad that the parents allowed this kids identity to be determined by what's currently relevant in social media.
How do you know that to be true?
i guess it must have also been sad when parents allowed kids to identify as sinister. meaning left-handed, of course. one moment, it was rightfully shunned, the next moment sinister people started getting everywhere and it was growing at an alarming rate, threatening to take over society...
...until it hit 12.5%, where it flatlined and stayed ever since. turns out if you don't bully people into repressing a trait they're born with, you'll see a meteoric rise in the amount of people you now accept, when they stop (rightfully) fearing that you'll repress them. today, it's beyond trivial that if you think there ever has been a point in history where one eight of all people haven't been left-handed, you're just a moron, but your rhetoric would perfectly fit the era when that started to be accepted.
we don't know exactly how many people are trans, but the sharp rise you see and characterize as "currently relevant in social media" is simply due to society (mostly) letting people finally be who they always have been. realistically, trans people are a minority, but that doesn't mean they don't have the same right to be themselves that you and i already enjoy simply for having been born into the majority.
I see no correlation between someone being born left handed and someone who claims to have been born in the wrong body, that's a bit of a stretch. What's not a stretch though is that social media has dictated a lot of what is acceptable in society but that doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing. People can live their lives however they want but it makes no sense that a kid born in this time would have come to this decision on their own without the influence of social media given how much it's affected our society in the past ten years alone. That's the problem and thats what makes it hard to understand and justify. Those in support of children changing who they think they are, give them pats on back but for what reason exactly and what cost? How is this a good thing? In my opinion, kids need to grow and learn to be productive members of our society before they should ever start being told "you're probably not who you are." It's silly.
Why don't you just let people raise their own children, and you can raise yours?
What happens when she'll be 42?
She'll probably be a regular 42 year old woman?
jej
JANNIE!!!
They do it for free
Love and support them?
The fuck did your parents do to you to make you so proudly ignorant?
PSA for anyone unaware, the ‘desistance studies’ that conclude that most children with gender dysphoria outgrow it are based on the DMS-IV criteria for gender identity disorder, now renamed to gender dysphoria.
Well, who cares and why does it matter? It matters because in the DSM-IV criteria children literally did not need to identify as another gender to be diagnosed with it. They might as well have called it sissy disorder. Gender nonconforming kids who are cis would get diagnosed with this, and the entire point of therapy was to make them gender conforming and straight. This is so psychologically damaging to kids that it’s banned in many western countries.
So, they take every gender nonconforming kid, the majority of which are cis but a minority are trans, declare they all have the same disorder (doesn’t do gender right disorder), and when the cis kids don’t transition as adults they go “look, this proves you can stop kids from being trans!” and hope you don’t notice the sleight of hand.
On top of what the others have said: at 11 years old, a trans kid is very unlikely to be medically transitioning, and so their transition is entirely social. With that in mind, what is the actual harm to a kid socially exploring trans identity and then later changing their mind? Why would that percentage need to be 100%?
Why does anything need to have a label. Why can't people just be what they want without prescribing to some socially defined idea
Trans folk still identify as Trans indefinitely in about 94% of cases. Evidence suggests many of the other 6% are bullied, harassed, or threatened as a factor in their changing the way they identify.
Or was that a rhetorical question?
Sounds more like a sealioning question, especially with their username implying trolling.
I figured as much (though the term is new to me). Giving a solid answer is often the right response to that kind of question. Every propaganda technique has a weakness, and "hard questions"'s weakness is that people usually read the replies and if those replies are calm and collected recitations of facts, people hear them and the question's bullshit value is mitigated.
I doubt you'll read these. I'm pretty sure your "wonder" is meant to stay that way permenantly so you can continue to feign ignorance and ask inflammatory questions. Just say you hate trans people already. This coy shit is annoying.
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/study-finds-2-5-of-transgender-kids-go-through-detransition/135029/
https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/150/2/e2021056082/186992/Gender-Identity-5-Years-After-Social-Transition?autologincheck=redirected
Never went away for me, and I didn't even know what the term "trans" was back then.