What do you do if a cop approaches you and starts questioning you while you're sitting in your car in a public parking lot?
Unfortunately, I drive a ghetto minivan which causes the police to profile me and has caused people in small towns to call the police on me if I am in a public park or in their neighborhood. I even had someone call the police on me at campground that I had pre-paid for and the police were not sympathetic at all to my right to just exist.
I am aware of stop and identify laws and know that a cop needs reasonable suspicion to demand to see your ID. However, can't the cop just make up some lies about reasonable suspicion?
If a cop approaches me can I immediately start with: "Officer, do you have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred, is in the process of occurring, or is about to occur?" It seems like that will immediately escalate things even if technically the law is on my side.
I just want a damn right to exist law and to not be a target for an overactive imagination by the police which treats me like a criminal until they can check me for warrants.
Honestly, I want to tell them to fuck off right away but I also don't have money for a lawyer.
Not sure if it'd help, but you could stick a buuunch of camping, hiking, outdoors, etc. stickers on your van. Try to turn its image from a "ghetto" van to a "hippy / outdoor enthusiast" van. I imagine you can order large sticker packs online for very cheap.
Yeah, that is a good idea. It would probably work best on a VW van like the kind surfers use. I suppose with enough stickers strategically placed it could look like you were into rock climbing, or surfing, or something involving the outdoors.
Just a heads-up, vans with climbing stickers can attract break-ins because they tell people "there's a bunch of expensive gear in here that would be easy to fence". Happens all the time in vegas. Hope you stay safe out there!
Maybe a bunch of penguin stickers and one that says, "Ask me about Linux!"
Might hurt on date night, though.
"There's a bunch of computers in there! But we don't know how to use them."
Yeah, rock climbing sounds even better than hippies for this purpose.
I just had a mental image of some overweight dude with tons of rock climbing stickers on their van. (Not implying anything OP, but just a funny picture I imagined)
After seeing the article about the 300lb pentathlete (who, yes, has to deal with social pressures due to his unusual build) I wouldn't even blink.
But law enforcement in the US are eager to invoke stereotypes if it will get them closer to securing an arrest / conviction.
Ideally, you do what helps become invisible to police officers.
Guess you have to look the part to sell this one properly
However, you don't want to live in a VW surfer van. They're cold as hell at night, zero insulation. Also they're decades behind safety standards, in a collision with anything, they crumple like a soda can.
They look iconic, but I don't recommend it in practice.
Best idea in the thread. You see old subies covered in REI and mountain climbing and hiking and backpacking stickers everywhere
This is an awesome idea. Here are a couple (here's one, here's another, and for kicks and giggles a third).
😂 Love that line!
Keep Pokemon Go on your phone, when they approach, open the app and then nerd the fuck out on them about whatever Pokemon are nearby and try to recruit them, they'll leave you alone real quick.
"Sir, do i detect an herb smell?"
"Yeah I think there's an oddish around here somewhere. Want to help me look?"
That must be the incense I used to attract more Pokemon!
It's attracting me, am I Pokémon
Let's find out!
[Yeets a PokeBall at the cop]
All right! You caught a Highmon
If you're not doing anything illegal then I highly recommend keeping your hands out in the open where they can see both of them, and politely answering their questions.
They have a gun, so its not about right/wrong, it's about your own safety. You don't know if that's a decent one or a shitty one.
Yeah, you are right. Once I opened the door when I got pulled over by Border Patrol. I opened it because my power window was broken. They did not like me opening the door.
Many police departments in the US are explicitly trained to treat encounters with people as potential combat situations. They get taught lessons like “Your first job is to go home alive.” It’s continually drilled into them how dangerous their job is, even though that’s not statistically true. This obligates you to treat an encounter with an officer as a potentially life threatening situation.
If your window isn’t working, do not open your door. Police regularly approach a traffic stop prepared for a violent confrontation, sometimes going so far as resting their hand on their firearm.
I worked on a military base for a while, where each vehicle was stopped to show ID badges. The right approach is to say (and mime - eg point at the window, point down, and shake your head “no”) that your window isn’t working. They’ll probably take a step back and tell you to open the door.
It’s wrong, it needs to change, but until it does we need to adapt our behaviors to fit the situations we are put into.
Solid post. These guys get “warrior” training. Like they are embedded with the enemy. When you set the general tone like that, common folk are at a disadvantage right out of the gate.
Be respectful and polite and try to escape the situation with as little impact as possible.
Lt. Colonel David Grossman is not the worst thing to happen to american policing but he's sure not helping anything.
oh that's the dickhead with the silly killing mentality right?
having a van that works properly would probably help your credibility, yes.
/lh
“What seems to be the problem officer?” Is how you should start every conversation with the police. Be polite, respectful, and firm in your rights. And most importantly don’t say more than the answer to legal questions.
until you feel like they are trying to lead you into giving them reasonable suspicion, at which point you begin the "am i free to go?" routine.
To me that sounds like it's opening the door by assuming there's a problem. I think I'd lead with "good morning sir" and let them start talking.
I disagree solely because you want to be the one asking why the cop is there and the cop is going to try to beat you to that punch. If they ask why you think there’s a problem “a police officer is getting my attention” is a valid response.
Anyway if anyone wonders why cops are hated, it’s the fact that ordinary law abiding citizens need to learn the special language that makes cops not get aggressive and accuse you of crimes.
Assuming this is USA, the phrase you're looking for is "Am I being detained, or am I free to go?"
For a more detailed answer, this is what the ACLU has to say.
God I love living in a developed country where the Police executes and does not judge (not USA)
You don't. It just hasn't happened to you yet.
When cops don't know the laws they are enforcing and thus telling your rights is not only seen as demeaning since it's their job to know, but makes them actively hostile and more likely to violate those rights out of embarrassment, it's a no win scenario. Better to just go along with their security theater and say as little as possible outside of answering direct questions.
You only have rights if you survive the encounter first.
A few years ago, I was pulled over after waving at a cop as we locked eyes while still stopped at an intersection. He said it was because my seat belt wasn't on, even though it was and I was in a lime green shirt so the dark gray belt should have been pretty visible across my chest and he wanted to argue that I put it on as he was pulling me over. To which I pointed out my dashcam system, said my belt was on the entire time and I could show him the video right now if he wanted. He just got pissed and gave me a ticket anyway. "Ok, but I have proof that you're wrong so this is just a huge waste of everyone's time," I said as he walked away.
Fucker didn't even show up to court so it was thrown out. Really was just wasting everyone's time. Mine. His. And the courthouse's.
Should have been a black mark on his record.
The cop mentality is all about feeling superior, so the last thing you want is to challenge him. Probably gets angry real quick and maybe even violent.
You have to treat them as if they are criminals. Don't upset them, stay quiet, try to act submissive.
How you want the world to treat you or the car only exists in your head. In reality, people gets treated after how they are perceived by others.
Wow, "treat cops as if they are criminals"
That's a piece of advice I'll share around
There's a lot of disappointing comments on here, like no shit you would use a different vehicle if you had access.
First, someone mentioned any cop has the right to check for insurance/etc, so being prepared for that and being amicable, as bright-eyed as you can be. Those marks usually get noted I think though. And another mentioned a sob story, harder in some circumstances but you can get pretty creative from Moms colonoscopy to funeral road trip (from the colonoscopy ofc).
However, I would like to add - do you have any way to meet creative people willing to turn your ghetto van into a painted art car? I was wondering what region you're around (don't need to mention it no worries) and you've mentioned a lot of small towns which makes me think mid-south or west. Either way, going over the car with some primer and a theme may help turn it from ghetto to art-van.
I would try hitting up craigslist or posting on local pages, if funds are an issue I would maybe just mention the situation, doing it in sections. A for sure place you can get it done though for free? Pretty much anywhere in the PNW (OR/WA at least) there are all kinds of weird parties and gatherings and I've seen tons of "paint me" vans, and honestly most of the time they look freaking sick. They're always a mix of hand paint and airbrush.
If you are able to save some over time, you could technically apply these yourself for just barely cheaper than an auto-shop, but it would be some work. You'd need 1 - 1 1/2 of grey primer to cover the van - anywhere from $35 (check dates then shake really, really well) to $85. And then probably the spray/air gun.
Either way, you'll want to follow the proper care for treating the car before you paint it - clean, sand, primer, (maybe sand, maybe not if art car), then the hard part is the clear coat. That part I'm not as familiar with unfortunately.
Last random idea, there are these like rental camper vans, probably a bunch of companies but faking one of those. Same idea as the art car just dumber lol.
Anyways, good luck and I hope in the future you have better reception to questions like this - and that you're able to relax wherever you're staying.
Thanks for stating that! It's like when there's a cold snap below freezing and some homeless guy freezes to death from exposure and someone says, "Why didn't he just go rent a hotel room for the night? It's just one night"
Say "hi".
Damn being white guy is the best shit ever.
I think you might enjoy this song:
Lil Dicky - White Dude
I'm sorry officer. I didn't know I couldn't do that.
That was such a a good bit. I remember when I saw it thinking about the time I got turned around at a major transit center and drove in the restricted area. Cops gave me a look, I rolled down my window and just said I was sorry and was going to leave.
What color are you? Pigs basically use as training material, so the darker shade you are the more careful you gotta be with slow hand movements and clear communication.
The answer is “am I being detained or am I free to go?” The answer to every question after is “lawyer” or shut the fuck up. Every day is Shut The Fuck Up Friday.
STFU Friday is gospel. Especially the one with Michael Rappaport.
Are you living out of said van? That complicates things quite a bit. If you really are just chillin' just show them your ID and get on with it. None of these dudes are trained and are already aggressive towards you.
Yes, I am.
Don't show them your ID then. If I were you I wouldn't chill anywhere longer than thirty minutes during the day. Misery loves company so that shit is illegal in a lot of places. I dont know of any of them but I vaguely remember forums about surviving like this on reddit.
Yep, I agree with you. I do move around a lot. But I also paid for a spot at a campground where you're supposed to be able to just chill and I still got harassed.
Check the rules for the campground next time you pay for a spot. Sometimes they sneak shit in there where you actually can't be camping out of your car. I haven't seen that where I live in the southwest. But I have seen people post about it in northern states.
Yeah, you're right about that. I have seen those rules about car camping. Not sure what they were at the campground I was at but I got there around 1:30PM and was only there an hour before the deputy sheriff showed up. Even if that campground had a rule like that it was only 2:30 in the afternoon and surely there wouldn't have been a "you must set up your tent within x minutes of arriving" rule. Cops suck! And the people who call cops because their overactive imagination gets the best of them suck too!
get a decoy tent. /s
maybe cleaning it will help. the difference between someone's "i'm gonna haul shit" van and a drug dealer's van is often just the amount of dirt and the straightness of the panels.
If you're in a vehicle, they do have the right to check if you're the registered owner, are licensed and insured, tags up to date, etc.
Best advice:
https://youtu.be/6EI_RYIEtrg
https://youtu.be/RkN4duV4ia0
Longer, but the most important 45 minutes you can spend today:
https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE
tl;dw - The Miranda warning tells you everything you need to know: "Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU." Not for you, AGAINST YOU.
Nothing you say to the cops will be used to help you, so do not talk to them.
If I see them approaching from far away and hop out of the vehicle am I then a pedestrian and no longer count as being in my vehicle?
Unless they see you exiting the vehicle.
The only thing that really matters is if you are driving or not. So if the vehicle is turned off and the keys are out of the ignition, you are not a driver. Therefore they cannot issue any moving violations or any similar driving related citations. Unless you are illegally parked, that's another issue.
If they are already approaching you, and you jump out of the car, that would look automatically suspicious to the suspicion-filled pig brain. So if you want to get out just do that before they approach.
Nah, if you are in control of the vehicle. Meaning if you have the keys and the ability to turn it on and drive. Sleeping drunk in a vehicle can get you a DUI even if the car is off and you're parked.
Seems to me you can be charged with DUI if you're drunk and in a car regardless of whether the keys are in it or not?
I don't think so
It depends on the location and local laws, but even then cops can charge you with whatever they want. Whether those charges hold up in court is another story.
Correct. This is no different than if my friend gives me a ride and runs into a store to buy something while I stay in the car. It's not a traffic stop so police can't just demand that I give them papers and prove the car is legally allowed to be on the road because we're not on the road.
You shut the fuck up is what you do and film them if possible. Are you under arrest? No. Then police may not detain you without cause. See ya!
All inexperienced young people who get into issues with cops or landlords seem to want to be as deferential as possible, thinking that will mitigate any trouble that's coming their way. But in essence, these people always ask for ways to make the cops/landlord's job easier. Don't tell them what words they need to say to you, don't ask for specific paperwork. It's their job to remove your personal freedoms and liberties, why would you make it easier for them to do that?
Best bet? Get some local PD/Sherrif or PBA (or equivalent) stickers and place near the rear license plate and on the glass by the driver side A pillar.
Lol, no it doesn't and no don't do this. Especially don't do it on a "ghetto" looking van. This will make you even more of a target.
The only time that might work is if it's a nice, expensive and well kept car. But then with that I doubt you're too worried about being harassed in the first place.
like it's a fucking goop frequency sticker keeping headaches away, lol.
If you want to legally be able to tell police to leave you alone, unfortunately being in a car probably isnt the right move.
Something like this probably. Just make sure to video tape everything.
Watching it now, thanks! It sucks that you have to study the law for rights you already have but "it is what it is".
To the guy downvoting every time I comment - do you feel powerful doing that? I even got a downvote for simply stating the country I live in. Dude, I live in a van and I get harassed by cops. I'm just trying to get some advice from people (like that Youtube link @David_Eight just posted) Keep downvoting, you're not going to make my life any worse.
The US has a long history of carving out segments of civil rights, especially from poor and marginalized groups. It is dangerous to depend on the rights allegedly afforded by the Constitution of the United States, especially with a SCOTUS eager to nullify the bill of rights.
Thanks for that video. I want to be like that kid. He wasn't always the most elegant with his words but he was right the entire time. That's what I would like to do when the cops show up. I'd just like to state my rights, ask am I free to go, and then have them go away.
You can fall down a rabbit hole on YouTube of similar videos. Rarely do the cops just respect the law and back down. For many of them it's about ego and power and they seem to believe whatever information they receive first, as in a caller said you were suspicious so they're going to treat you like a criminal regardless of the facts or what you tell them.
I didn't read the whole thread before linking that video, so a few things to consider.
It's really helpful to say what country you are in.
if someone doesn't tell you what country they're in, it's the U.S.
and maybe germany, made that mistake too many times.
I know, but I was trying to do it the nice way.
Lol was it not immediately obvious with this description of police? The us has the worst police issue like ever. Cops in other corrupt authoritarian countries at least don't pretend they aren't corrupt and authoritarian
It's actually obvious as soon as a person doesn't say where they are from, because there's typically only one nationality that assumes you know where they are from.
Couldn't agree more lol. It's like that meme from an anime where a very American looking dude is like the whole world belongs to America !
U.S.A.
I'd just show them my ID.
Well, go buy a shitty minivan and drive it through some small towns and then after you get harassed you might get fed up a little. Maybe I was too ambiguous with the post title....I should have posted "what should I do" rather than "what do you do"
All of that is good advice. I do get haircuts and stay clean shaven most of the time. So, I don't look homeless but my van does.
It seems like every day there's a new article about people getting priced out of apartments and unable to afford homes. So, it's just a matter of time before there's some huge "Grapes of Wrath" style caravans of people living in cars. I wonder if it will get to the point where the cops look the other way simply because there's too many people living in cars.
Dude in my area apartments are 3/4 of my take home pay.
I can only live because I live in coop housing that is 1/4th my pay, and I was only invited here because my buddy moved away and the neighbors already like me.
I don't see how asking for an ID is harassment. Like, are they asking you every day even though they know you by now?
different towns....also the incident at the campground happened and there were other people camping. The cop didn't go check in on any of them. His specific "reasonable suspicion" was that in the past at that campground they have had trouble with "riff-raff". Great! So be it, then why not go ID check all the other campers then? I was being profiled and targeted because of the vehicle I was driving. If you don't understand then that's because this hasn't happened to you 10 times or more. It gets tiring.
But I don't see how you can argue yourself out of the situation. Even if you find the magical words you can say to police officers to leave you alone, you will still have to say these words to them in every town. At this point just showing your ID seems like less effort.
Not arguing that. But I also don't see how you can change anything about that without changing the actual vehicle. There is a reason my drug delivery guys only drive B.M.W. and Mercedes.
I don't want to argue...in fact I don't even want to talk to them. I just want to say "If you don't have reasonable suspicion then I am not legally required to show you my ID" then I want them to go away. I suspect that would not happen. I was hoping someone would read my post and tell me that they did that exact thing and let me know how it turned out.
Were the other campers actually camping and you were just a minivan parked at a campsite?
Because not many campers just sit inside a minivan the whole time.
But meth heads do, because they can't smoke meth out in the open.
Stop being angry people notice you, and start trying to blend in. If you're paying for the site, you might as well use it.
I have a ghetto van. It does not blend in. The campground was one incident. There are many more which have happened in parking lots where other people are also sitting in their cars. Since the invention of smart phones a lot of people sit in their cars for various reasons and look at their phones or use laptops. It's not illegal nor suspicious to sit in your car. - Anytime you vent online people look for an angle to blame you. I just want to exist without being harassed like everyone else.
What is a "ghetto van"?
It seems reading through the comments you always point that out as the reason you're getting singled out.
Maybe you should improve the Van such that it's no longer a "ghetto van" and that would help to stop said profiling.
Have you seen early 2000s Dodge Caravan models? Imagine one of those with dents and a lot of rust. All of life is about money - sure the solution is go buy a $100,000 RV but if I could do that I would have already done that.
Can you grab a crap tent you can throw up, just to look the part? Something that’s quick to put up just to look the part. Or heck just leave camping gear outside conspicuously
I have thought about that. It is a good idea. I believe in psychology they call that "signaling". Might have to start doing that. But I don't go to campgrounds a lot. I still get harassed if I am eating fast food in a public park or just sitting somewhere on my laptop.
So...
You did go to a campsite where families were in tents and you just sat inside your sketchy minivan and don't understand why the cops were called?
It might be just one example, but it was your pick. You saw nothing wrong with you behavior or understood why it was suspicious...
So there's a good chance lots of the time you don't see a reason, there's a very good reason it's happening.
Go lurk on r/vandwelling on Reddit, there's a shit ton of old posts going over common sense stuff that you would greatly benefit from. And I sincerely mean that as good advice, by your own admission you want help.
But there's not a lot of people on Lemmy, and this is pretty important.
So go reathe posts of people who live this life and have been doing it for years.
I am upset about the profiling. Being poor does not automatically make you a criminal. Like when they profile people of color or Middle Easterns at airports. There's plenty of rich dudes driving $100,000 cars who are committing crimes in society. I know there's nothing I can do...just venting. Also, I had out of state license plates. As long as the locals were using their imaginations they could have just imagined that I was driving cross country (which was actually the case). So, because I am poor and have an ugly van I have no rights to use a campground that I paid for, right?
Lol ok if different cops came to your front door multiple times a week, asking for ID, you don't think you would feel harrassed.
That's privilege buddy.
Your frontdoor usually doesn't move from town to town, entering different jurisdictions ... but ok buddy.
Alright, get a visit from the cops every time you move house or stay at a hotel.
Nard.
It's almost like cars and houses are different.
I understand OPs situation. Your non-sense analogy isn't adding anything.
So you draw the line of a domicile somewhere between RV and van, just like the law says. Like a guy living in poverty is less entitled to peace because of his choice of cheap vehicle.
Bootlicker.
Hear hear, privilege speaking here...
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8kgw/the-pot-brothers-at-law-want-you-to-shut-the-fuck-up-around-cops
'That’s not exactly how the Founders framed the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but it is what Craig and Marc Wasserman want you to do.'
"Why did you pull me over? I’m not discussing my day. Am I being detained or am I free to go? If detained, you say, “I invoke the Fifth [Amendment],’ and then you shut the fuck up.”
Thanks for that article. I do agree with it. But this might be similar to "there's plenty of dead pedestrians who thought they had the right of way". I already know that technically I can refuse to show my ID without reasonable suspicion but if the cop arrests me illegally I still have to go to court to assert my legal rights and I can't afford the money or the time.
Dead right.
There isn't any kind of script that I know of that actually prevents cops from being cops, sometimes this helps.
I used to hop freight trains, often with at least tacit permission from the crews ( I've driven locos before). Cops are a different beast as you know. It's taking each one individually, but still you are going to get screwed sometimes.
I've been banged up for 'attitude' and let off when one of the guys I was with had pron the cop liked.
During the pan, I ran out of stuff to watch. I ended up watching police-cams and dash-cams of car chases. Ironic, given that I loathe the police. But it's way better than fake reality TV cause it's authentic.
I believe in our rights not to be abused by police. I believe even more that asserting our rights can make us a target for bullies. I'd say clam up and offer nothing beyond an ID. Tell them you don't want to speak without representation. You may have to invoke your right to stand mute for it to be relevant in court (if it comes to that) to argue that that was your intent. I think that's the best way to say nothing without appearing to challenge their power.
I am not an expert or lawyer or anything. I just know that I've seen a LOT of videos of cops getting belligerent when they feel challenged and they are fucking violent. There may be some who aren't, but I wouldn't gamble on it at all. My plan, if confronted, is to obey every physical order and never to argue.
I don't have reason to think I'll ever have a confrontation with a cop (I'm not a "kid" anymore) beyond maybe a speeding ticket, but if it happened, I'd be super compliant and assert my rights after the fact.
I have no specific advice but check out the book "Talking to strangers" by Malcolm Gladwel, it might be insightful.
I have heard of that book. I'll check it out. Thanks!
Youre welcome bud.
I have lived in my van for a few periods too, on and off up to a year at a stretch. It can be really mentally draining. I hope you find some respite and peace & quiet soon.