Experts: No Way to Truly Know if Redditor You're Arguing With Is Bot or Child
https://hard-drive.net/hd/video-games/report-no-way-of-knowing-if-redditor-youre-arguing-with-is-bot-or-child/Open linkView original on slrpnk.net725
Comments123https://hard-drive.net/hd/video-games/report-no-way-of-knowing-if-redditor-youre-arguing-with-is-bot-or-child/Open linkView original on slrpnk.net
Very fitting headline in a day and age where I'm constantly seeing people advocating for giving trump the Whitehouse and finishing the country off because anything less would be SuPpOrTiNg GeNoCiDe. As if the move to help Palestinians would be to elect Trump. These people are very stupid children, bots, or Russian paid actors. Impossible to know which.
I got into that exact argument about Biden. Eventually I called the person a Putin puppet and got my post deleted by a Lemmy.world mod.
So, you got into an argument, turned to insults, and moderation kicked in. Sounds like everything is working OK.
You're exactly right, and you proved your own point with this comment thread. It's really sad that people can't be polite and think they have to resort to ad hominem crap.
Sounds overzealous to me. Wrapped up in that is the assumption that associating a person with Putin is said as just a way to hurt feelings, rather than a perhaps-assuming claim.. before yesterday, it never once occurred to me that a mod would have an issue with a claim of association that cannot be proven either way. Might as well start banning people for telling each other they're wrong.
So, if I were to hit you with a claim of association that cannot be proven either way, but just so happens to conveniently dismiss anything you said, and anything you might say in response, you wouldn't consider that a personal attack?
Fine by me: How much is Putin paying you to sow bad-faith arguments among non-republicans?
I am frequently hit with much worse "attacks" than this and I laugh at and ignore the vast majority of them. Even when someone's particularly good at being personally insulting (this example is NOT) I rarely get hurt by it.
Ah, so you do, in fact, recognize it as an attack, a personally insulting one, with the intention "to hurt feelings", and not a "perhaps-assuming claim" you present it when trying to justify not getting banned for being an asshole.
Precisely what I strongly dispute. It's only an insult if you have no idea what an actual insult is.
Kinda ironic that you did not even read the conversation, and you get to call me an asshole in the same breath as telling me I was insulting, which again since you didn't read the conversation you're pulling that assumption straight from your rectum anyhow.
Annnnd I was banned from politics on lemmy.world. this is actually kind of messed up. I don't think I said anything particularly offensive even. It seems like it was more about my message.
I was banned from all of . world for shit posting in a running group by saying I'm too fat to run. The group crossed my feed when I was sorting by all and I said it just for shits and giggles.
That got me banned but when I went on the discord and asked about this another mod came along and reversed it.
Wow. It's so concerning.
The "automod" just removed 5 of my comments for complete bullshit reasons, but it honestly does seem like they did it in response to the exact same issue -- I claimed someone is a russian actor. I'm now wondering who runs lemmy.world, and what exact agenda they have.
Despite it claiming "automod" there were human-written reasons, one of which was "Provide evidence of shilling or this is personal insult."
You do realize I read Lemmy right?
No, they were reported multiple times, and I removed them by hand, no bots were involved.
Like I said in the modlog, if you have actual evidence of botting, let's see it, otherwise, you are intentionally antagonizing people, and I can't let you do that.
It seems like you assume I know a lot of things I either don't know or forgot about. Forgot about the modlog, still even looking there, it's missing detail, such as someone to message to ask a question. Also, ... "abelist insults", really? I believe I wrote a couple things like "what is wrong with your brain?" which would not be taken as seriously by anyone I know.
I did see the message about providing evidence of shilling... I am just curious what would constitute such evidence? In my experience you could almost never prove it, and ironically that is what the parent post above is literally about.
You admit that you have no evidence at all, and you are going around calling people who disagree with you "Russian bots"?
Suspicious voting patterns, repetitive spam messages, all of these would constitute as evidence, and our admins ban these spam bots usually within minutes.
You are going around and calling people stupid," it's just a joke bro" is not going to cut it. Ironic prejudice is still prejudice.
I don't want to argue with you more. Take the next 3 days off, talk about something else, think about how you can contribute positively before you come back.
No I didn't, to any of this.
Uh, wow. No prejudice involved.
News to me this was an argument as the first contradiction just occurred
A child often behaves like an LLM-based bot - a child too often will imitate proper argumentation in style, but say junk, because they want to "win" an argument and not be correct. I would do that when I was a child.
I mean, adults do that too all the time, so the only way to distinguish bots from people is to communicate with people you know are real or others know are real.
I love how the old way of using the Web would solve this problem automatically, and P2P solutions with webs of trust too, but the majority of people uses the architecture most advantageous to bots.
Almost as if you needed bots to attract the majority of people. They wouldn't come to the web otherwise, for just real people and real communities. It's like a hunter's whistle. Or like porn.
What about unpaid russian actors?
Biden is assisting a genocide though. Will I vote for him in 2024? Most likely. I still fucking hate him though.
Nobody said we had to like him to vote for him.
I know some people that certainly seem to think I have to like him to vote for him. They genuinely think I'm going to sit out an election that could have a wannabe dictator on the ballot.
You know who thinks we have to idolize a guy to let him run our country? Russians and bots made by Russians... it's literally all they've ever known. After that, people who fall for propaganda.
This guy is an irl friend of an irl friend. He gets absolutely mental if you post a quote or news article about something Biden did that unpopular. Recently, I posted about how I'm depressed about the next election and he went into a spiel about how it's our civic duty to vote and how Biden is the only thing keeping use from falling into a dictatorship. I mean, sure, but I'm still depressed that he's our best option. Honestly, the way he talks about Biden reminds me of Trump supporters. Ever hear someone call Biden "Uncle Joe" unironically?
Millions are supposed to swallow their Principles and vote for this one man, when the by far simplest, easiest solution to "keep Trump out" is for this single man to change his actions.
Clearly for Joe Biden keeping Trump out is secondary to "I should be able to do whatever I want", the very opposite of "I am but the elected representative of the will of the voters".
If you think democracy has ever been about the principles of millions, you're missing its point.
The theory of Representative Democracy is for those elected to represent those who voted for them.
However the reality is indeed different, the less democratic the country the worse. I'm just pointing out the US is already de facto way down towards the Dictatorship side of things when the current POTUS prefers to keep materially supporting a racist genocidal massacre over doing what millions of those who voted for him demand as a question of Principle (we're not talking about disagreements over what to do for the Economy here, we're talking about outright support with bombs to those committing what is already the largest genocide of the century).
I wonder if there trully is any significant distance between Biden and Trump in terms of democratic principles. Maybe their loudness and the openness of the methods they use to subvert Democracy is their main difference in this, not their spirit as (non-)representatives of their voters, since they both behave as masters whose will is more important than everything else including some of the most important things for those who elected them: they behave as kings or dictators, not as elected representatives.
You tipped your hand there.
There are way more political positions in genuinelly Democratic countries than merelly 2.
If you assume that if I'm not for #A then I must be for #B, then you're just betraying your profound ignorance of Politics under Democracy.
“I wonder if there trully is any significant distance between Biden and Trump in terms of democratic principles.”
Are you serious? What a completely naive and ignorant take. Gee, I wonder if there’s much difference between Biden and a man who LITERALLY tried to overthrow the government and has stated, quite clearly, his desire to be a dictator.
I don’t understand your “logic” at all here.
When in a Circus, the out of control clown might be the one getting your attention but its the quiet pickpockets working the crowd that are doing most of the damage.
Trump and Biden both couldn't care less about the what the people who voted for them want, it's just that one is a loudmouth and uses overt means to try to subvert Democracy whilst the other one is quieter and does his subversion of Democracy via campaign contributions, appeals to negative vote, not fullfilling that which he promises in the campaign trail undemocratic primaries and so on.
Ultimatelly in both cases those who vote for either of them end up not being represented at all.
One could say that Trump-style subversion of Democracy has actually been less successful that the style practiced by Biden, mainly because Trump is so spectacularly incompetent. In fact plenty of less loud and more sneaky Republicans who practice the same style as Biden are probably much more dangerous.
Whilst I myself would also tend to see Trump as the most dangerous, in light of just how confident Biden is that he can do whatever he wants without being punished by voters, I'm starting to ponder on "what does he know which I don't" and if I and most people haven't been foolled into seeing the loudmouth as much more dangerous when the quiet one is also dangerous.
Granted, I'm an outsider, don't even live in the US, and don't really have to make a choice between swallowing my principles and vote for the quieter Nazi-lover to keep out the loud Nazi-lover or not vote at all.
The closest I've been to that situation was when I lived in the UK, were I ended up joining the Greenparty - even though I could only vote in Local and EU elections and it's a very small party - and just helped them out with campaigning.
I mean, that's fine. I only have a problem with people who will watch the world burn under the guise of principles
But if biden loses I'm going to blame HIM, not the voters. We all know how dangerous trump is. If biden and other mainstream dems actually believed it they'd be pushing boundaries like never before. But they're not. They're actually moving further right to try and appease "centrists" which is pretty much what the social democrats did in Germany in the 30s and we see how well that worked out. They should be promoting the organizing of militias in case trump supporters try to fuck around and seize power again if democracy really is on the line.
It won't matter whose fault it is when democracy in the United States has been snuffed out.
"democracy"
Right, a semblance of it beats none of it
Hey man, tell it to biden. He's clearly not taking this seriously enough.
Why am I unsurprised that its lemmy.world libs bringing the 'everyone I don't like is a russian bot' line to the fediverse.
Hey. It's only a problem if you're actually wrong.
Nah, even if they are out to get you, paranoia is still paranoia.
lemmy despite trying not to be like reddit, it's still moderated by people that get off on the power trip exactly the same
They don't care that much.
vote biden because trump bad
what about their resumes? what have either candidates done that has benefited your life enough directly that demands your vote?
please name one thing biden has done that your life now is better for
was it the cannabis reforms he promised and flip flopped on with prosecutor harris? was it the police reforms he promised? was it defending our human rights? was it the immigration policies he talked up that now mirror republican strategies? or is that stagnant paycheck after biden promised a higher minimum wage of $15 which is still too low due to the inflation?
forgot he can not do anything because republicans and republicans never can do anything either because democrats
through policies and laws crafted and put in place by politicians like biden, trump, obama, and the list goes on my right to vote was taken so not like have a say in this election anyways
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/biden-promise-tracker/?ruling=true
Not that those links would be the metric to go by when voting, but they do not support your position as Biden's stats are much better there.
I will not waste any more time on you so don't bother replying
Yeah. I had to look at both twice to make sure and laughed a bit. Some people can site sources. But they can’t read em
Or just people with different opinions to yours
Anyone who sites “genocide” and then, in the same breath, supports Trump is either a shill, a fool, or both. There is no metric you can look at and say Trump is better,
To say the least
There is a very valid point made there. Think about all the weird arguments you had with other users on the internet over really frustrating stances that made you think "no one can be that dense, or with discussion tactics that were just utterly pointless (constantly shifting goal posts, strawmen, weird pseudo-philosphical ramblings that missed the point completely but ended in some smug "gotcha" that actually was nothing but nonsense). Those tend to leave us in a.bad mood sometimes, right? At least they wanted our mozherfuckin time.
Now ask yourself: would the impact on your day, the evaluation of what was said and/or your reaction to it have changed, had you known that your opponent is either a literal child or a teenager who just discovered the message behind an Ed Sheeran song and now thinks of themself as some conveyor of deep thoughts?
I'd bet that around half of all political debates on the internet are useless duels between one person actually arguing something and a child/teenager regurgitating what their dad said and they think they understood but actually didn't.
As a counterpoint, I've had in person/face-to-face arguments with people that looked convincingly like typical adult humans that did all of these things.
This is why I tend not to reply. I make a post and if someone replies with "actually you're wrong" I just move on with my day. I've never seen a reply chain 12 comments deep where the two people arguing come to a reasonable compromise.
I've seen it once or twice but it's really rare!
Wanna have another go?
You are, my fire
Believe, when I say
I tend to reply more often than is probably good for me not because I care about changing that person's mind, but instead the others that are reading.
Welcome to the internet. I don’t see the point of banning someone for a post that no one will ever read again after 12 or so hours.
No u
Haha ive not seen that. It's a work of art.
Thanks for the reply!
Too bad there isn't a copypasta reply to the Rick and Morty high IQ one.
Why is it that despite knowing how utterly futile snarky little debates are, I can't resist doing it?
I hate it, but it's so damn engaging.
The thing is. It's never satisfying. Luke no one ever concedes. Ever. They just stop replying eventually.
It is satisfying on the rare occasion someone makes an actually interesting argument you haven't heard before, or actually addresses your points.
Because it's a battle of egos and about dominating the conversation. Both of which are vitally important to human life whether other people want to accept it or not.
I'm the exact same.
Most of the time I purposely torture people with strong feelings on whatever. You know, the ones that know nothing but try to force their opinions by posting, of all places, on Lemmy. Stupid arguments by over zealous humans should be shot down immediately.
Confessions of a Troll
Facepalm...
Irony
Wut
So you should be shut down. Got it
You will never know why I love your response, but thank you.
Much obliged, I guess
Everyone's being funny about it, but the Dead Internet Theory is looking more and more rational, especially on Reddit. I really don't have any rational reason to expect that even the dancing TikTok people are real, never mind Reddit comments. I'm fairly certain that I am a living thing, but I have to question everyone else, with all due respect.
Man, Reddit's weird now. I think it's just responding to the cookies that it sets as I use it, but I don't log in and FF dumps cookies every time I close the browser for the night, so when I browse into r/All there's a new "hot" subreddit every time, and it's always kind of random. The usual suspects, like JusticeServed and all that fashy shit, those are kind of conspicuously absent, too.
I think Reddit's on their way out, not because of Lemmy, sorry, but because all the normies getting forced online in 2020 was the last hurrah, and the site is on the way down, finally, I can feel the traffic dropping. Everyone's either getting sucked into the jet engine of TikTok and Instagram or they're just using group chats and avoiding social media altogether.
The fascinating thing about modern Reddit is at long last the Americans all seem to have left, and suddenly the site feels like it belongs to the EU, and even South America a bit. So either it's about to rise with a new flame in this next decade or you should probably buy one share of the IPO as a keepsake and no more. I wonder how long it will take to delist.
My dude, I've spent the last couple years really upgrading my finance chops and now I just keep looking around at the variety of internet based things that seem to be winding down like a shitty old clock while going, hah! interest rates too high now! The current internet was only possible in the free money era.
Are you in the EU yourself? Americans have not left reddit. Simply, Reddit has been agressively trying to expand into the EU and LATAM, by constantly pushing the local equivalent of English subreddits like me_irl. To the point where if you are in the EU and logged out you will maybe 10% English content and 90% content in your language.
Judging by where the quality of fully AI video on the AI image subs is at, we're probably still a few months out from that being easily possible.
We are already there, here is a good example https://www.instagram.com/emilypellegrini
Reddit is for cops. Its destruction was on purpose.
El/gin ai,rforce base is reddit's most addicted city in a scrubbed blog post. Here's a reddit post bragging about it to fellow a,irforce.
What do they do at El/gin? Don't click anything. They do many things but mostly oh, nothing. Nothing to see here.
They're just kidding, right? Right?
They wouldn't do anything malicious, would they?.
That can't be legal can it? Oh, thanks Obama.
It's a dead platform for cops, square haircuts, corporate fellatio, thugs of capital, jackboot goons, and well trained Jan 6 architects
Man I posted one fully loaded question on askreddit and I'm shadow banned not even a warning fuck reddit
3-5 years ago, posting this would get people copy pasting the dictionary definition of solipsism at you and downvotes to hell. But now....it seems we are determined to crowdsource proof of it being the world we live in 🙃
Edit: the gutter subs that post the incendiary content is missing for you? That's interesting
Man I posted one fully loaded on askreddit and I'm shadow banned not even a warning fuck reddit
I mean… welcome to the internet. It’s not just Reddit, but most social media, and some “news” sites.
I hypothesize that so many bots are being dumped into our internet conversations to make us all sick of their shit and break our internet addiction so we will all go back out and rejoin the real world again.
The problems on Facebook aren't children. They're men aged 39-55 wearing sunglasses.
I usually assume they are a piss drinker.
I only drink it when I feel scared about something. Ask your grandma she will tell you it's true
https://youtu.be/6vbCKava_JE?si=V1FZuUZ4U0Vqpn9R
How is this from the Onion!?!? I don’t know which is which anymore…
It’s from The Hard Drive, which is another satire site. The sidebar for this community mentions that other satire sites are okay to post.
Thanks; I meant the "news" itself, about not longer being able to tell wether the news being satire or not., even though it’s from the Onion or Hard drive
This is not an Onion article, this is a research paper
I wonder what Alan Turing would think of this.
He'd be too busy shitposting on Tumblr as King of the Gay Pirates
Gay Pirates have no king. Gay Pirates need no king.
Gay Pirates not only have a king, but need a king, because the writer is a monarchist
Let me ask the Alan Turing chatbot...
Probably be too busy in the garden looking at flowers, or too fascinated by the complexity of the emerging properties of neural networks and things.
Any AI smart enough to pass a turing test would also be smart enough to fail it on purpose.
Bots write better.
Akshually, Distinguishing between an AI-generated comment and a child's input can be challenging due to evolving language models. Both may exhibit simplicity, occasional errors, or innocence in expression. As technology progresses, this line blurs, prompting reflection on the nature of communication and the expanding capabilities of AI.
This feels like it was written by AI
It's... a mask!!!
Thanks ChatGPT
... Or me
Effectively you are dismissing users based on your own feelings and not much else
That's a bad method especially on Lemmy which prides itself on friendliness.
If I know I'm right, and coming down hard on someone in an argument, I actively avoid acknowledging insults because I see it as a tactic to stall from losing an argument.
People will start ramping up insults before they lose in order to bait you into arguing about the insults instead of the facts that they are wrong about.
I mean, it can pride itself on friendliness, but it's not really a friendly place. People are toxic and dismissive, often ignoring any nuance in a discussion.
🤣🤣🤣
I've seen a minor increase in people willing to reply and bring actual sauce to discussion. I've still never seen anyone willing to change their mind despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Even when you have a username like my which goads people into ad hominems using fake historical earworms lol.
🤔🤔🤔
A really good way I have found that doesn't turn the audience against you like barbecuing souls does is to not speak to whoever you're replying to at all. Openly say you're addressing the audience and speak of your opponent in the third person, the way you do when you are talking about someone else right in front of them. Or like, the way you'd show them a new game system you bought, or cookies you made, or something.
I did that before to an astroturfer on Reddit and the guy never responded back, and I got tons of sweet sweet Reddit karma.
Do you keep a list of people whom you've verified as human, perchance?
Your strategy, while innovative, is fundamentally flawed. It's disingenuous and presumptuous, alienating those who maintain composure and objectivity rather than reacting emotionally to your minor provocations.
I propose an easier solution: interact with people who you find interesting. Worst case, you have a wonderful conversation with a bot and find your prejudice wasn't even warranted.
You just run away when someone questions your bad faith argument like a true adult.
This is embarrassing.
You think that anyone behaving like an adult after you insult them is a shill? Kee-rist, no wonder the internet is in such bad shape.
Only 30? If you weren't online before '93 then you're a n00b.
Huh, you're nicer about it than I am. I usually just barbecue their souls and then get banned. 🤷