I still have that fantastic graph you made bookmarked

from the discussion we had

::: spoiler Spoiler

Party cohesion and the relative strength of the party are key factors. In a two-party system like our's, the Dems should be well-placed, nominally, to resist (if not necessarily stop) the rise of fascism, since the division of the opposition and uniting with useful idiots is often a key tactic in fascist consolidation of power. Italy and Nazi Germany alike.

... but the Democratic party has no cohesion. Neoliberal ghouls try to milk the far-right for all its worth, like Zentrum in Weimar Germany, while the socdems and demsocs in the party actually trying to resist fascism are reduced, by their extreme minority status, to nothing more than admitting that they are defenceless, but not honorless when the hour of reckoning arrives.

For example, in South Korea in the late 80s, while not strictly speaking an expression of fascism (which is generally considered to combine totalitarian revolutionary with reactionary ideas, while South Korea was just a bargain-bin authoritarian military junta), the opposition parties fought the long-lasting authoritarianism of South Korea even without holding a majority. Even in the immensely repressive environment of a police state, they managed to not simply resist the expansion of authority, but reverse it entirely. But it required the diverse opposition groups to present a united front on at least the singular issue of opposition to authoritarian abuses.

And a lot of people taking to the streets. A lot of people taking to the streets.

I suppose one more difficult component might be time, and being in the eye of the maelstrom, it’s hard to tell what phase we’re at in regards to totalitarian collapse. But if Hitlers ascent to power is on one end of the spectrum, and like, even that showed a stronger internal political resistance…

As Napoleon once noted, conflicts are resolved not according to genius, but who makes the fewest mistakes. Certainly, our fools making mistakes are less brave and less competent than the SDP. We can only hope the same counts for our Nazi Party.

We live in a comedy of errors that would be much funnier if we were not fucking living in it.

Wow. That’s fascinating about North Korea. I know you’ve got your day job and all, but if you had to stack rank say.. 5 regimes that went full blown fascism, and five that maybe were near misses, by where in the “the internal powers resisted”, I think it could make for a very interesting if brief article.

Unfortunately, modern history isn't my main field! I could probably give a quick attempt at it, though. I don't know that I can sort them, because every situation is a unique clusterfuck of successes and failures, but you might have a preference you can order the summaries in.

(Note: some of these are ambiguously fascist because of a lack of revolutionary elements; however, in the same spirit of the South Korea example, I think it counts for the purposes we're talking about currently)

Fallen To Fascism By Internal Forces:

Japan: God, this one was slow-motion. There was no single event, just a long, slow decline from the pressures of an overpowerful traditional and business class, and cowardly politicians. It was something like 20 years before the final pieces fell into place, each part being pushed forward by another group of meek moderates who preferred to yield to threats from the far-right than put up a fight. One of the figures who actually DID push back against the military's demands and forced his party to go along with it, Prime Minister Osachi, was hamstrung by the oncoming Great Depression and little economic success in alleviating it, and was assassinated in any case.

Austria: A complete failure of the political class. A not-particularly-charismatic man with a one vote majority in the legislature managed to pull a legal coup over the fucking government. The legislators were scared away by armed cops preventing them from entering the legislature, and the president was too chickenshit to dismiss the fascist as prime minister despite having the legal power to do so and having over a million Austrians petition him to do so before something irreversible happened, like, say, the destruction of Austrian democracy.

For that matter, the Austrian people themselves were incredibly lukewarm about the whole affair, in terms of intensity of feeling. The Social Democrats and Communists joined together to call for armed resistance and a general strike, and just... no one bothered. So the SocDems and Communists were crushed by the armed forces inside of a week.

Italy: Just an utterly humiliating and embarrassing series of events. The Italian liberals supported nationalist chestbeating that was more popular on the right than the left (😬), the socialists and Communists were more interested in fighting each other than the fascists, and Mussolini effectively slipped into power with a minority government of like, 1/5 of the legislature, just by making a large partisan demonstration on the fucking capital. Jan 6 but immediately successful.

The prime minister advocated to fight back initially (after letting fascist thugs suppress anti-fascist strikers - surely these fascists would never turn on ME!), but resigned when he didn't have the support of the king instead of at least going down with a shred of fucking honor. Mussolini headed the government, and the legal institutions failed to stop any further behavior performed by/passed in the legislature that was unlawful by the Kingdom of Italy's own laws.

Weimar Germany: Agh. I think most of us know this one. The Social Democrats got isolated by both the 'moderates' and the Communists, weren't numerous enough on their own to do jack shit, and while they went out (literally) fighting (with the formation of paramilitaries to challenge Nazi paramilitaries), it wasn't enough.

The (largely religious) moderates claimed definite opposition to the Nazis, in the spirit of a moderate and democratic Germany! Until the Nazis were in a good position, at which point they immediately started licking boots.

The Communists were taking marching orders from Moscow, and Stalin preferred a Nazi victory in Germany to a Social Democrat victory, so the Communists refused cooperation with the SPD and even made political alliances of convenience with the literal fucking Nazis to weaken Social Democrats.

The conservatives handed over power once it was apparent that no one was going to stop them from doing so. Anything to crush the filthy poors and minorities.

Resisted Fascism By Internal Forces:

The USA: Yep, we've been through this song and fucking dance before. Though with the president in opposition, rather than support of the fascists. The US was in uncertain straits at the beginning of the Great Depression, with both the dissatisfied working class and big business interests eyeing the idea of an overthrow of democratic governance. The Silver Shirts were something of a joke, but figures like Coughlin had significant influence over the opinions of the electorate.

Luckily, the Dems didn't shit the bed for once, and nominated a charismatic (if moderate) progressive reformer to head off trouble - FDR. After FDR's election, and the control and cooperation of the legislature, the New Deal gradually reduced workers' grievances and business independence to the point where fascist and fascist-adjacent movements to a tiny minority that were formally suppressed come WW2. It was touch-and-go, requiring a great deal of skirting and bending rules without breaking them and destroying the government's legitimacy, but the Dems (and even some Republicans) were desperate enough to risk that kind of brinkmanship.

You could also point to Nixon, back when the system was still semi-functional, and Nixon's own party was willing to demand a resignation from him over him breaking the law and then trying to argue that the president has unlimited legal power to do whatever he wants.

Interwar France: The Communist, Socialist, and liberal parties all sucked it the fuck up and worked together, forming a popular front that shut out the fascist movement, with the liberals offering concessions to the working class and the left-wing offering legislative support, while simultaneously stringently enforcing the law against fascist paramilitaries who had been boldly skirting (or passing) the edges of legality.

Unfortunately, all three groups turned on each other before long. While it didn't lead to a resurgence of fascism, WW2 was so close on the horizon that it didn't much matter in the end.

Boulangist Crisis in France: This is one of those comedy of errors things, except this time the fascist (or proto-fascist) is the one who makes the most mistakes. The fascist had basically set up all the pieces for a successful coup, but decided to wait instead of striking immediately. This gave the French non-fascists time to unparalyze themselves from their shocked stupor, and actually do something about the fascists, directing their justice department to actually prosecute the criminal, despite having won a recent election (😬), causing him to flee and commit suicide.

India: Despite Indira Gandhi's genuine and enduring popularity, the opposition parties all uniting to condemn the coming election as the last chance to choose between dictatorship and democracy (😬) resulted in a crushing victory for the opposition. While Indira Gandhi would return to the position of Prime Minister later, she would not regain the political support to repeat her initial 'rule by decree' period that risked total autocracy and the dissolution of Indian democracy.

Spain: After a pro-democracy leader came into power (King Juan Carlos I had been playing the long game under the fascist regime), there was an attempt by pro-fascist forces to coup the government and restore a far-right regime. They literally stormed the legislature and took the representatives hostage. However, while the King's actual power under the new system was limited, as a figurehead, his voice still carried great weight. Juan Carlos went to the radio and condemned the coup in no uncertain terms, resulting in most of the rank-and-file abandoning the cause.

Who is in the driver's seat, however little formal power they may have, matters greatly. Appeals to national unity and expressing confidence in the democratic process can go a long way from the lips of a respected figure.

Reversed Fascism By Internal Forces:

Pinochet's Chile: The people voted fascism out. Yes, literally. Most dictators still rely on elections for the illusion of legitimacy to the dumber portion of the population that's willing to lick boots, but not necessarily comfortable with naked dictatorship (sadly not insignificant). Pinochet held an election that he tried to clamp down on as tight as he could, but popular opinion was so overwhelmingly against him at that point that he couldn't suppress or falsify enough results to be believable. Mass protests demanding the implementation of the results of the election were coupled with the military refusing to back Pinochet having blatantly and unambiguously lost an election, and Chile returned to democracy after nearly 20 years under dictatorship.

Legitimacy is a big deal, and sometimes people who focus too much on the 'raw' policies and personalities of governance forget that. Even kings can be felled by a loss of legitimacy; dictators are no different.

Portugal: Basically, even in a dictatorship, opinions matter. Militaries are recruited from ordinary people - and when the ordinary people become dissatisfied, generally, so too does the general population of the military. The cruelty and incompetence of the fascist regime, and the influence of outside politics pushing democracy and socialism, led to a pro-democracy conspiracy being formed amongst mid-ranking officers, and then executed with unexpected mass civilian support, which probably prevented pro-government forces from engaging with the revolutionary forces. No one wants to fire on their neighbors, friends, and family.

South Korea: See above comment.

Resisted Fascism Internally, Fell Externally: Special shout-out to the Spanish Republic, which didn't let even a military coup dissuade it from resisting fascism. The parties of the Republic (initially) rallied together, despite their differences and called on the people to support them in the war for the soul of Spain. Unfortunately, several years of civil war wherein major powers (Italy and Germany) funded the fascists did result in their eventual defeat by force. Also, there was infighting after like, a year. Not good.

:::

On one hand, I'm hesitant to keep up something this recent as 'history'.

On the other hand, Jesus fucking Christ, I hate living through history.

Back when NASA was flinging things into space for the first time, the tolerances that were even possible were extremely tight. Every pound mattered (every pound still matters, but because we have other things to do once we get to space nowadays, plus every pound is expensive).

600 pounds of white paint for the fuel tank was considered unnecessary, once the engineering team figured that it didn't actually protect the special foam covering of the fuel tank anyway. Thus the distinctive orange color!

lol. lmao, even.

Mandatory Note: Being prepared for shit to go down is different than advocating any sort of lone wolf action. Organize first and foremost. We may yet salvage something out of this debacle without an outright civil war or like burst of violence, though certainly not without brave folk on the streets physically resisting the fascists and making it impossible for them to quietly oppress the American people and make it the new 'normal'.

In either case, comrades are invaluable. Yes, even ones you might disagree with on matters other than "Holy fucking shit, the administration really dialed up the fascism"

The bullet is an option, and an option we must acknowledge and prepare for, but still an option of last resort.

lmao, the joke was more about infodumping about one's obscure interests, but as for urine taxation:

Explanation: The Roman Emperor Vespasian decided he needed more income, but didn’t feel raising the proportions of existing taxes was appropriate. So he instituted a new tax - on urine. Urine was used in bleaching, cleaning, and tanning (it’s the ammonia), so it was actually a valuable commodity. Terracotta amphorae were placed around the city of Rome where citizens could relieve themselves like CIVILIZED people, and Vespasian implemented a tax on those who collected those pisspots.

Vespasian’s son, Titus, expressed disgust at the tax, but Vespasian is said to have waved a gold coin under his nose, and told him that the coin came from urine, yet it didn’t smell. From which we get the modern Latin phrase ‘Pecunia non olet’ - ‘Money doesn’t smell’

Also, for this reason, some Romance languages still use words derived from Vespasian’s name for urinals.

Explanation: In the Super Mario games, made by Japanese company Nintendo, one of the main enemies are turtles, and the usual boss, Bowser, is himself a giant spiked turtle who spits fire.

... in the 16th century AD, Japan's invasion of Korea (the Imjin War) was foiled in part by a series of naval disasters inflicted by Korean 'Turtle Ships' which were spiked, armored warships armed with heavy cannons.

(Bowser is not actually based on the Turtle Ship, but the similarity is funny)

As long as people enjoy my reposts, I count my time well-spent!

Explanation: Khutulun, a descendant of Genghis Khan (the great-granddaughter of his heir, Ogedei Khan), was famed for her beauty and her athletic prowess. She swore not to marry any man unless he could defeat her in a wrestling match. No man ever did (though I believe she eventually married).

Any man who challenged her and lost would forfeit 100 horses to her. She earned a herd of some 10,000 horses this way - a considerable amount of wealth even for a Mongol princess!

... my inner sub is giving me very bad financial advice for my herds right now...

She was also a skilled warrior, and favored by her father to become the next Khan, but he was eventually dissuaded from this by political maneuvering. Khutulun herself would become a prominent military commander under one of her brothers, who became Khan instead.

Hilarious, but also, ICE doesn't give a fuck if you're legal. They've already 'accidentally' deported citizens.

Maybe to give someone more at risk a better chance of getting away, but not just for the funsies. Stay safe out there in these trying times.

Jesus fucking Christ. What a cretin Seinfeld is.

Based Inigo Montoyo, at least.

In a July 2025 New York Times interview with his wife Grody, Patinkin was critical of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's policies during the Gaza War, arguing that his actions are "endangering the Jewish population all over the world" and that "to watch what is happening, for the Jewish people to allow this to happen to children and civilians of all ages in Gaza, for whatever reason, is unconscionable and unthinkable."[64][65][66]

Et tu, Piefed? Then fall, PugJesus!

I’m just wishing him goodbye and good luck on whatever he spends his (newly copious amounts of free) time on next.

Heh, not as much new free time as you might think! One of the things I enjoyed about posting on here was that I could do it in little pockets of waiting while doing other tasks. But some hours freed up weekly, certainly. Sadly, I'll probably fill it with games instead of anything useful, since all my other hobbies I'm pretty much full-up on. But there are worse fates! :p

Still would prefer history shitposting

I always liked history since I was a kid. It was really awesome seeing this… this… FLOOD of posts about history here every day without fail, realizing that history was important to other people and that it could be fun and enlightening and half the time I wouldn’t know wtf a post was about and I’d end up spending half an hour on wikipedia reading up on it and I’d post a link in comments and it’d feel like I was taking part in things. Anyway I’d disagree with PugJ once in a while about various things, but PugJ always struck me as sincere and passionate regarding things they cared about, which is admirable.

Stop, you'll make me tear up.

One of the things I always hoped for when posting or writing an explanation was giving more than a chuckle (though I loved giving a chuckle) but connecting with and supporting the history enthusiasm of others.

In retrospect, I do wish I was less acrid at times. Not always. But some times.

PugJesus, it’s too bad that you’re cutting away from the threadiverse. Your posts greatly improved life here over the past couple years. I hope you will consider staying around in some capacity, perhaps even under a different name. But if not, that’s cool, I can understand that sometimes things are too much and you just have to step away.

If I come back, likely as not, it would be under the same name. My reputation is one thing I don't fear - not least because I've earned it, for better and worse! A new name would eventually acquire just the same reputation from my cantankerous soul. :p

In his (admittedly limited) defense, he joined the GOP in a very different time. He's still filled with free market delusions, but he's a pre-Reagan Republican, and has never supported Trump.

Holy fucking shit.

This timeline just keeps getting dumber.

This is the fucking savior of half of the voting population of the United States.

Explanation: In Christian mythology, the ichthys symbol, depicted, was used as a secret sign of one's faith. To outsiders, it would appear only as an innocent fish - to those in the know, it would be a sign of belonging to the DANGEROUS CULT OF CHRISTIANITY.

It still sees use today, though not as a secret so much as virtue signaling.

It's not to conceal the fact that they're Muslim. It was simply the standard for a significant period of European history to Latinize names, as Latin was the common tongue of academia. Germans, Norse, and Slavs all suffered this same Latinization.

For that matter, translating names into the local language is far from abnormal in world history - the use of the local name is extremely recent in nearly all languages. Even personal names of people who were known, personally, was not abnormal - famously, T.E. Lawrence was known by his Arab allies as "Auruns". In English, the Anglicization of Marcus Antonius as Mark Antony by Shakespeare still has currency some 400 years later, even as other Anglicizations of Roman figures have largely fallen out of favor.

This is making mountains out of molehills. It's one thing to want the Arabic forms to replace the old Latinization - that's valid. It's another thing entirely to accuse it of being done to steal credit from Muslims.

"It's so long ago! Who cares!"

"So you're fine repudiating it, since you don't care?"

"NEVER! THOSE MURDERERS WERE HEROES!"

It's so frustrating to deal with people who reverse their position on racial justice as soon as it's convenient for them to do so. Frustrating, too, to have fucking family who will look me in the eyes and say shit like that about other atrocities.

I mean, the Saudis have killed far more than just one journalist.

But yes, the double standard is appalling. For that matter, that we align ourselves with either, much less fucking both, is horrific.

https://www.uniladtech.com/news/tech-news/fbi-woman-hack-10-years-old-reveal-punishment-450281-20251208

At the age of just 10, Kubecka's school had just gotten a grant and installed some brand-new computers that fed her curiosity. In her own words, Kubecka explained: "I explored so much, I found my way into the Department of Justice and the FBI, and I thought, this can't really be real.

"It must be a game, because their passcode was only zero, zero, zero, zero. So I didn't think it was real, because it was too easy."

Unfortunately for the young hacker, she really had found her way into the DoJ and the FBI, accidentally stumbling across files on undercover FBI agents.

Explaining a little more about how she hacked the FBI, Kubecka said she used a dial-up modem and simply saw whether the computer on the other end was connected. If it were, she could communicate with it, possible to even play games on someone else's computer back in the day.

First part is true. We didn't evolve to have 'jobs', but instead to live in small and unspecialized societies.

Second half is an absurdly utopian view of hunter-gatherer societies. Hunter-gatherer societies do less work than subsistence farmers, but more work than modern day 40-hour workweek laborers. Not only that, but it comes at a price of severe food insecurity and low survival rates for anyone with serious health problems.