Muslim Americans in swing states launch anti-Biden campaign
"We recognize that, in the next four years, our decision may cause us to have an even more difficult time. But we believe that this will give us a chance to recalibrate, and the Democrats will have to consider whether they want our votes or not."
That's gotta be one of the strangest reasonings I've heard in a while.
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We hope that shooting ourselves in the foot today will allow us to run faster in the years to come...
Expecting either US political party to drop its support for Israel is a fool's game.
Seriously these fucking morons are going to assist the guy who wants a "complete and total ban on Muslim entering our country...." because they don't like Biden's support for Israel? I understand this is a no win situation but given the choice who's going to be better for Muslims domestically or abroad? Clearly the dem. And on that point I wonder if they think trump would have behaved any differently toward Israel? Spoiler alert.
They have a point though, neither d nor r is going to be "good" for Muslims or Palestinians, our track record sorta proves that out.
Maybe they figure that when Trump was supporting his Muslim ban, they had one major party on their side.
Instead of zero parties on their side and one party gloating that they have no choice.
Never mind a party which is more than happy to call them morons for feeling let down and wanting a candidate who actually stands up for them.
Wanting someone to stand up for you isn’t moronic.
What’s moronic is voting in such a way that elects the party FURTHEST from your ideal.
If the party needs their votes, it should act like it needs their votes.
They certainly know how to act like they need Republican votes.
Interesting. Now we have to stop people from punching themselves in the face? I tell you, you can't fix stupid.
Then give up and lose. You'll get to blame a minority for your problems, just like republicans.
I see this kind of thinking often, with regards to young voters, black voters, blue collar workers, immigrants, women, etc.
'We've checked with the experts and determined that they should be grateful! Why won't they adjust their lived experience to match our policy platform!!'
It doesn't matter whether you agree with them. They're leveraging power. You are free to disregard them if you think your personal narratives are enough to keep you comfort after Trump wins.
If Biden and his supporters want to win, they need to stop arguing with their voters and start listening. It's not that complicated.
I’ll be comfortable if Trump wins. I’m a cis white male who makes over $200k per year. Hell, I’ll probably get a fucking tax cut.
These idiots are going to be among the first and worst to get hurt.
I’ll vote to try to stop them from hurting themselves but there’s only so much I can do.
Democrats feel entitled to votes from their base are are offended at the idea they might have to earn their vote. They blackmail us with Republicans and victim blame when their bad electoral strategy fails them
This isn't unique to Democrats, it's a feature of the left in general. Democrats aren't bending over backwards to get progressive votes, but progressives aren't bending over backwards to get moderate votes either. If a Democrat loses, moderates blame Progressives for not showing up. If a progressive loses, progressives blame moderates and the establishment.
I mean how many progressives criticize Bernie's electoral strategy instead of blaming the DNC? Bernie completely wrote off Florida and Cuban Americans instead of trying to win them over. He aimed for 40% of the vote in the primaries. And he relied on non voters to win.
Democrats and progressives BOTH prefer to bicker with each other and make no efforts to court each other's base. They'd rather blame each other than critique their electoral strategy. And when fascists rise to power because of this bickering, both will blame each other again.
And just like that, candidates are expected to win votes.
This implies their voters are speaking in a unified voice. They’re not. Subsets are, closer to it, but overall, politics is about compromise and consensus.
If you want the power of dominion, go for a monarchy, and if you don’t want to compromise at all, go to war. When it comes time for peace again, it’ll be some manner of compromise.
"We decided you're expendable. We still expect your solidarity."
I tried asking that question on a post somewhere around here and they pretty much responded like I was the biggest moron who had to be spoken down to.
Because in bizarro world a ban is worse than ethnic cleansing.
Ban + more ethnic cleansing > no ban + less ethnic cleansing
It's utterly disingenuous to suggest the two are mutually exclusive. The ethnic cleaning only intensifies under Trump, and the ban is in addition to that. Unless we're in a bizarre world where Trump suddenly loves brown people and Palestinians.
Speculating while ignoring genocide. BlueMAGA is toxic as fuck
Gee I wonder why you guys have practically no meaningful political presence in reality. Maybe if you tell me more about how much I love genocide, I'll see the purity in your idealistic views and decide to support your cause instead.
Of course, I could fire back that you want dead Palestinian babies since you refuse to go against the most deadly option -- but that would be as utterly disingenuous as writing off all Biden supporters as genocide supporters.
The funniest thing about this comment is that it could be easily directed at you as well.
Biden allowing their death is the most deadly option. Do you people even hear yourself? I couldn't give a fuck if you support us or not, which is preferred since liberals tend to co-opt movements and try to redirect the energy to neoliberalism.
Personally I think a Republican actively killing them would be the most deadly option. I'm curious though why you think Biden would result in more Palestinian deaths than any Republican candidate.
Then again not like the "very shoot ourselves in the foot, but just little bit, instead of lot" on decades long repeat leads to anything good.
If ones vote is to be taken for granted, you have no power. Only way you can hold your own side accountable is by threatening to withhold the vote.
That is bargaining. Voting Democrat nomatter what and after that asking could they please do something, that is begging. Begging rarely works as well as bargaining.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Joys of two party system.
Most likely people just get apathy and instead of flipping to Trump, they simply stay home. Which is the other bargain. What you offer for me to bother to go from my home to the voting station in the first place.
That is their play "you can't take us for granted anymore, we care about our vote and bargaining power on long term enough to suffer on short term to buy long term relevance".
Whether it works is different matter. I don't know, if democratic leadership has the where with all to take their left flank of voters as anything but given serval supporters to be kept in line with "but we are only little bit bad, those guys are really really bad".
I can't wait till we find out in a few months how Russian & Iranian money was actually fueling this.
1000% guaranteed. They've done it before and their doing it again.
Why? Iran benefits from American hostility. External foes help silence domestic dissent.
I watched a video recently that indicated under Biden, the state department has worked to normalize relations between Saudi Arabia and the Israel. They went on to say that Iran supports or even outright funds Hamas, Hezbolla, and a number of other paramilitary groups in the area so they can maintain anti-west sentiment, to prevent an erosion of their regional influence.
Which is to say - a U.S. that’s embroiled in a culture war with a president that has disassembled the state department is ideal for Iran.
The guy running against Biden has far worse policies with regard to Muslims. If that guy wins it "proves" America wants the worse policies, potentially causing Democrats to switch to those policies to try to win.
Luckily, this is a publicity stunt that I don't foresee changing any actual votes.
Who are Zionists actually voting for? If it's not the Democratic party, then why would he continue to be pro-Israel? Whom is he pandering to with that stance?
Sure, it's shorthand, but the idea is that the Democratic Party might nominate a presidential candidate who has harsher views about Muslims and Palestine, if they see those views being the reason they lost, or among the reasons they lost.
They would see that they had the "better" policies and still didn't get the votes from the people who care most passionately about them, so their approach did not work. Maybe they go closer to the protesters view to try to get their votes, or maybe they give up on the protesters as a voting bloc since they couldn't even get their vote when they had the "better" policies. That would entail going further away from the protesters views.
Either could happen, I don't know the polling, but my point is that it isn't just "we will take 4 years of Trump to make our point and make Democrats listen," they may be taking 4 years of Trump and then proving that no one should align their policy views with theirs going forward because it hurts more than it helps.
Rationally, you have a valid point.
But I can totally understand people who can't bring themselves to vote for someone actively supporting a genocide. Something that Trump didn't do during his tenure in office.
Lesser of two evils only works when the distinction is clear to everyone.
Biden needs to separate himself from Israeli genocidal politics, and it seems his cabinet is trying to shift.
So in conclusion, you might consider this a publicity stunt. And maybe it is. But recent elections have shown that you can't ignore your base, you need to fire them up to really turn them out.
So this is definitely a good move.
Trump provided military assistance, approved arms sales, and personally vetoed a bill to end US military assistance to the Saudis in Yemen which is considered a genocide as well.
And his Israel "peace plan" was literally just giving the Israelis everything they wanted so if you're giving him credit for Israel/Palestine actions you're literally just giving him credit for not being the president when this happened. He absolutely would have been worse for Palestinians, he just didn't have the power at the time.
Then they stay home to vote "neither of the above" or in more active form cast ballot voting for "Mickley mouse" aka foiled ballot.
Trump was trying to oppress them personally. Maybe sympathy for those suffering a genocide is more important to them than their own safety, but maybe it shouldn't be.
Also, do you really think Trump wouldn't support Israel killing every last Palestinian they could?
Oh, so just the families of those citizens. Gotcha. I'm sure Trump won't do worse next time.
Also, that isn't all he did. He wanted a national registry of Muslim-Americans, for example.
Please, explain to me how doing that wouldn't be oppressing them.
...and the American base never fails to show its sheer, utter stupidity.
Good thing there's someone else running in the primary that's polling 10 times higher than that guy.
Who would that be?
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/2024/national/
I guess she's got double the votes, not 10 times, but it's funny you haven't heard of Marianne Williamson.
I've heard of Williamson. Those charts say she's polling in the single digits and is only ahead of some dude named Phillips that I've never heard of.
Not sure where you're getting your 10x or even 2x numbers.
OP didn't mean some rando that no one's ever heard of. "The guy running against Biden" meant the only other person with any chance of being president in 2025
I don't think those graphs say what you think they do. Unless you haven't noticed that blue line way at the top.
Obviously the incumbent is polling at 80%+, I'm just saying that Phillips is even less likely to challenge Biden than Williamson, so there's really no point in saying he's even worse than Biden.
I find it funny that people trot her out as if she's some solution here. Will you be telling gay men who loathe her for minimizing AIDS to suck it up and vote for her?
Didn't Trump have a travel ban on Muslims at one point?
Edit: yep, he did
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_travel_ban
If they succeed in electing Trump, Democrats won't need to reflect about anything because they won't be allowed to run for office anymore.
Ah, yes, "recalibrate" to a dictatorship. Republicans LOVE muslims!
They must want to completely lose Democracy because they aren't getting their way. That's what's in the ballot. There very likely won't BE 2028 election if Rump gets back in.
If democracy isn't working for them, why would they vote for it? Remember, they just voted with Republicans to censure Rashida Tlaib over nothing too, and then there's all the other stuff like student loans, the child tax credit, gaslighting people about how well the economy is going, etc.
Generally voting for democrats on the federal level just means halting or slowing down the inevitable ratchet towards fashism, not actually improving things, because there always a Lieberman or a Manchin ready to sink anything that would be too lefty.
Because it can get worse. This seems obvious.
Of course it can and will. But just like Weimar Germany, the centrist parties (or in this case, the only non-fascist party) are too busy with their heads up their asses (or scare mongering about socialism) instead of solving people's issues. Why would they support the party that will punish the few representatives they have any time they stand up for Muslim issues?
BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE IS WORSE.
This also seems PAINFULLY obvious.
The alternative in this case being "treating people like you need their votes."
The party would rather have Trump than the nightmare scenario of acting like their voters are worth anything.
Look, I can’t keep people from hurting themselves. I will call them morons leading up to and afterwards though.
Same as I did for dipshits in red states losing maternity wards now. /shrug
You'd rather blame people for a loss than try to win.
Both options keep getting worse and continuing to paly a rigged game isn't worth it. The Republicans might just cheat and win and all.the.Biden capitulation will have been for nothing
You show me the policies the Democrats have that comes even close to this- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
I mean I don't like the Democrats, but my god... Trump and his people want a one-party state with him as dictator for life and one of his kids succeeding him.
The capitulation would have been for stopping that.
Don't worry. There will be no shortage of people clutching their pearls and smugly saying they stood up for their ideals by not voting for Democrats, as they ride to concentration camps.
Is it an inevitable turn towards fascism, or is it people refusing to vote against fascism because Democrats don't "inspire" them?
You can either keep shaming non-voters, or democrats could maybe do something for them once in a while that's not a corporate giveaway disguised as policy.
If a progressive is running against a fascist, and a moderate chooses not to vote because they think both options are "too extreme", does that mean the progressive candidate inevitably leads to fascism?
I'll happily keep shaming non voters, because their logic makes no fucking sense and I hate such blithe idiocy. I'm no Democrat spokesperson nor party official. If a random person being mean to them online is enough for them to refuse to vote against bigotry, I couldn't care less about their opinion.
Last time moderates didn't get their very first choice, they formed a PAC to fundraise for McCain/Palin.
I see someone isn't following what is happening or how this works. The President, leader of the Dems, changed federal policy to forgive student loans (or at least a big chunk of them for a big chunk of the population) and it got struck down by the Supreme Court thanks to the other party. The Dems passed the child tax credit and then couldn't get it through the house to renew it because of the other party.
Let's say that's true, it's objectively not but let's pretend it is. Isn't that still the obviously better option? How the fuck is fascism today better than fascism tomorrow?
Then we don't fucking deserve it or it will be time to refresh the tree of liberty. When disenfranchised people tell you that they don't see a difference, ask why. These folk have lost family members and are telling you that, from their perspective the only difference between having a R and a D in the White House is whether you show up to protest too.
“Refresh the Tree of Liberty”.. that’s some bullshit, Trump gets into office and he’ll chop that tree down himself. Then deport all the Muslims he can. Voting R is the literal version of “chop your nose off to spite your face”.
If they can’t see a difference between having legal abortions and not, they’re fucking idiots.
Yes, Roe still exists and we need to preserve it by... making excuses for not codifying it.
Hey maybe republicans will do it.
"Everyone to my left is all the way to my right"
Na mine is “those idiots think getting the party furthest from their supposed ideal elected will be good for them”.
Then don't accuse me of being a Republican for pointing out that Democrats did fuck all to preserve Roe.
If you can't see the difference between not being able to get an abortion and your mother being dead, then I pity you and your lack of empathy.
If the overturn of Roe has turned you into a one issue voter, then I will pair you off with a 2nd amendment one issue voter and you can angrily jerk each other off.
Na I just picked an issue that any fucking moron would be able to tell the parties apart on.
Hey maybe Trump will be better on Muslim relations though.
Ah yes, Muslims are famously all pro-choice.
TIL discerning between two things is tantamount to support for one of them.
If you look at Democrats and Republicans and see no difference, you may want to ask yourself why a Trump presidency would be the same for you as a Biden presidency. There aren't a whole lot of non white working class Americans who can say that.
It's notable that the Republicans have not attempted to court the pro Palestinian voters in reaction to the anger at Biden. Because they are if anything more pro Israel / anti Palestine than the Democrats.
I agree that the Dems are the "only slightly better" party in a few aspects, and they need to do better. But slightly better is still better than the alternative and we need to vote like it.
FTA:
"a reflection of their outrage over President Biden's handling of the Israel-Hamas war."
If that's legit their position, then they have no candidate in 2024. It's not like they can vote for Trump.
That may be.
If Democrats need their votes, they'd best listen.
The DNC will ignore them, then blame someone else when they lose
And they clearly stated that they know trump would be worse short term, but they are hoping this puts long term pressure on democrats to represent their issues more.
This has never worked in reality though. Republicans will always pull the country to the right if they win.
Yes. That's literally their point.
These fucking idiots.
"That Muslim Ban was such a good idea and concentration camps at the border, we want to see what the orange one will do next!"
While ignoring WHO built those concentration camps
Morons.
I will never ever understand minorities that vote this way. I get people who are like me voting conservative, I don't but I get their self-interest pov. You are literally voting for people who want you deported. They have made that crystal clear.
Russian money hard at work.
Yeah that worked real well for the people that didn't vote for Hillary because sanders that shafted by the DNC. DNC never learned their lesson and Trump winning again I doubt they will learn.
I worked for that campaign during that election cycle. You would think that the DNC and coordinated campaigns would learn that not listening to voters hurts you. Shaming them didn’t work last time either. They didn’t fund outreach. They didn’t listen to organizers on the ground. They didn’t care.
They would rather lose than listen to voters.
At this point I honestly think the lesson they've learned is that curb-stomping the progressives and daring them to stay at home gets us all 4 years of punishment under the GOP and in the next election they get 100% of what they wanted in the first place without any actual lefties having power.
When you remember FDR, this is exactly what they did then- FDR, scion of privilege, ran on a progressive platform for an electorate thirsty for lefty policy. He surrounded himself with other left-leaning bluebloods interested in progressive politics but dead set against actual leftists gaining power. They doled out progressive policies as political favors but strictly kept the rabble out of actual power.
Likewise, in the waning years of the Prussian Empire, Otto von Bismarck (a staunch monarchist, facing an uprising of social democracy politics he despised) famously undertook socialist-y policies like socialized medicine and old-age insurance/pensions to steal political support from the social democrats while keeping them strictly out of power.
I could be wrong but I don't see that happening until the GOP shatters. I see Dems traditionally as a coalition of basically not GOP voters. Just using single voter issues for this example, Let's say we had a viable pro choice and pro gun third party, how many people from the current 2 parties would that pull from. I would wager mostly from the dem side which means larger chance of GOP winning. Which is a risk DEMs won't take and I feel the DNC know this.
Yeah sorry these people are idiots and should be ignored. We are in a really dangerous position right now where we could still fall to fascism and need every blue vote we can.
Do they honestly think that a Republican or Trump (who banned people from Muslim countries) aren't gonna ban them too?
Absolutely shocked that Muslim fundies hate most of the same people Christian fundies do, yet are too stupid to realize the leopard will come for them eventually.
Shocked I say.
In the little exerpt included in with the submission, a spokesman makes it clear that they would be worse off in the short run if trump gets elected, but they are thinking long term.
And this comment is implying they are pro trump...and it's the highest voted comment? What's going on here?
"But they are thinking long term"
Yes, I'm sure a second Trump presidency will be just great for democracy and Muslims in the long-term.
I agree, probably wouldn't be. Couple that with all of the other threats to our world that Trump poses and "we're not happy with Biden's Israel/Palenstine issue so we're pulling support" seems incredibly stupid to me.
But the poster implied they were supporting Trump, when they pretty clearly said they do not. Right there in the excerpt from the article. And it's still being upvoted. It's kind of embarrassing, actually, how little people had to read what is right in front of them to not be wrong on this point. . .and it's still a popular opinion getting upvotes.
In a two-party system, refusing support to one party is effectively supporting the other. It's not an insane thing to accuse people of, regardless of what they say.
If you check out the research work done by the political compass, you see it’s actually a one party system wearing a two party outfit.
Oh, lord.
Go check it out. They track democracies from all over the world. It is not partisan. They do not take pundits. They track policies and statements from the officials themselves. If you do not like actual sources, then I don’t know what to tell you. American candidates for the presidency have largely been on the authoritarian right for a decade. Candidates from both parties end up very close to each other on the chart.
Letting Democrats take advantage of your vote and not listen to you over and over again it’s not a good strategy either. They don’t actually stop any of the things they used to fearmonger people with. They just wait so that they can use them as a threat again in the next election cycle. That’s an abusive relationship.
"Yes, Jews recognize that it might not be the best next four years for us, but we just cannot support the Social Democratic Party of Germany for the 1933 election as our concerns are ignored by them and we are taken for granted. We're thinking about the long term strategy here."
Because the best strategy for leaving an abusive relationship is to start dating a serial killer.
A lot of people feel justified in not actually listening to others and judging them from afar as what is happening. They feel justified in doing this for very specific reasons.
We live in a two party system. If you form a coalition to make Biden lose, then you're making Trump win. They're pro-Trump because they're helping Trump. What's going on is a fascist takeover of our country. We aren't giving slack to anyone who enables fascism. The fascists will kill more people not less. This is bad short term thinking and bad long term thinking. The reward for helping fascists is death.
I agree with you it's a dumb move. But dear God, they're literally telling you, almost explicitly, that they don't support the trump (basically supporting noone in the up coming election) and you're still desperately torturing logic and twisting words to deny it. Is it really so hard for you to accept reality? Is it really so hard for you to accept that things are not so black and white?
It is that black and white. We live in a two party system, that's reality. It's not twisting words, it's math. If one candidate doesn't win, the other candidate does. Republicans are overrepresented by the electoral college, not voting helps them win. The support may be inadvertent, but it's still support. They can say they don't support Trump all they want. If they don't vote for Biden, they are supporting Trump.
Using this tortured logic, if one doesn't move to a swing state, even if they support and vote for Biden, their non action inadvertently helps trump get elected, so they actually support Trump.
It's painfully dumb.
Republicans typically represent rural communities with low populations and high surface area. The electoral college votes are allocated to states based on the number of senators and representatives. Both of these are in turn skewed in favor of Republicans as each state gets two senators no matter what and the total number of house seats is capped at 435. Since neither chamber is properly apportioned by population, Republicans are overrepresented in both chambers.
No one knows for sure which states are swing states until it's too late. Remember the blue wall in 2016? Not enough democrat voters showed up and what were supposedly blue states went to Trump.
If a person doesn't vote in an election then they are helping Republicans. If a person doesn't vote for Biden then they are helping Trump.
A person doesn't have to declare their undying loyalty to a candidate in order to support them. Making the other guy lose the election is sufficient. Your argument is splitting hairs.
Trump didn't win any blue states, he won most of the swing states. And we also knew these were the close states, and we know which states are likely to be close again. This idea that "well, we plumb just don't know what will be close states" is pretty much nonsense.
This is a dumb argument used to totally miss the point.
What if that person had voted, they would have voted for Trump? That voter is now hurting Trump's chances, but according to this big-brain logic, that voter is actually helping Trump! lol.
And a person who doesn't vote in a swing state is also helping Trump, despite the fact that they might have even voted for Biden. So, again, according to your logic, you can support and vote for Biden and still be a Trump supporter.
You literally just argued "well, we don't know for sure which are going to be swing states!" in an attempt to take down my point, and you're accusing me of splitting hairs by pointing out that not supporting Biden does not mean you support Trump. Holy shit, this is hilarious. Do you even think about what you write down?
Oh yes because religious people are known for making smart decisions....
Religious people making bad decisions doesn't preclude people here from not being bright enough to read an excerpt that is right in front of them so they won't be terribly wrong on what they think is a ridiculous position.
Their idiot's facade of justification doesn't stop it from being a ridiculous position.
Liberals love speculating what MIGHT happen, while ignoring what is actually happening.
You’re not very self-aware, are you?
I'm self aware and aware of harm around me. Your party and Republicans contribute the most harm to society
Ahhh… you’re one one of those “bOtH siDeZ!” kids I’ve heard about.
Carry on with your rhetoric.
Not both sides because they are both on one side, and its not ours. What is it with liberals that love to infantilize while remaining smug and arrogant, does it make them feel intellectually superior? From the left its hard to tell a liberal from a republican.
So, what were trumps worda about muslims when he was president? Since youre concerned with what actually happened.
Still better then genocide. You and your fellow cohorts would be in an uproar if the exact same thing was happening if a republican was in the WH. You don't care about people's lives, only the one doing the killing
If supporting Israel is supporting genocide than Trump supports that too. Trump is one of Netanyahus strongest supporters, LOL.
I said nothing about supporting trump, I said oppose Biden. But Biden does happen to be the largest recipient of JStreet money
Opposing Biden is supporting Trump unfortunately in our two party system. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good
Instead of voters punching left, they should be making demands of the DNC to replace Biden.
"Me and my cohorts" you seem to know who I am. Why dont you tell me about myself, and I can explain a "false dichotomy" to you.
You're making it obvious that you have a double-standard and are simply projecting that.
There's no double standard, your comment makes the assumption I advocate for a Republican
I made no such assumption. But considering how quickly you jumped on this despite me not saying, it's clear how much you were intentionally baiting it.
Projecting and not arguing in good faith. Probably should be obvious from your name that you're just a bad troll.
Muslim ideology doesn't exactly fit with democracy so it makes sense for them to embrace radical extremism. Same goes for most religions.
These people are stupid. Short-sighted generation that can't see past next month. They're not going to be changing anything, just making sure worse for no reason and giving conservatives more time to get the anti-minority establishment further embedded in everyday culture.
This thread indicates not.
Centrist Democrats have never considered that a party is obligated to represent people whose votes it needs.
You don't understand that people don't want to participate in a system where both choices require them to take active participation in what they see as genocide of their own people?
Or you just don't see how anyone could possibly oppose genocide?
In either case, you certainly didn't show any evidence at all that you have given any consideration whatsoever to the idea that a party is obligated to represent people whose votes it needs.
You've only got three options.
Pick Gun A. Someone shoots 8 people with Gun A.
Pick Gun B. Someone shoots 20 people with Gun B.
Don't pick either gun. Other people decide which gun will be used. Someone shoots either 8 or 20 people with the chosen gun.
If I don't want people to die, what should I pick? Should I pick Gun A because I want to make sure the fewest people die? Or should I not pick at all, so that I can feel good about myself if gun B is chosen and 20 people die?
I'm sympathetic to them, but refusing to participate in the system doesn't mean the system goes away. It just means you pretend you don't have blood on your hands. If you care about keeping the Palestinian death toll as low as possible, you vote for the option that will kill the fewest. That's voting for Biden. Choose not to vote, and the death toll may be higher.
Blood will be on my hands no matter what I pick. I choose to see and accept that blood, if it means even one life is saved that would be doomed otherwise.
I suppose congrats are in order. We have a real life Trolley Problem.
Shit. It actually is.
You just forgot options D:
If enough people don't pull the lever to not kill anyone, nobody will be killed. But then the Democrats get real mad you voted third party.
If you can get enough people to vote third party to outright win the election, then you're wasting your time talking to me. You should be talking with a third party to take over their strategy, because it's readily apparent that no one currently leading a third party has any clue how to win.
Point and case, third parties could barely break 5% combined against Hillary and Trump.
If you don't need their votes, keep acting like you can order them to vote like you want. You can always blame them for the results, but you'll still have the results.
The party would rather lose to Trump and have someone to blame than try to appeal to the voters it regards with withering contempt. It may make you feel morally superior to scream at people, but that doesn't move the needle in the direction you need.
Pretty much. If fascism takes over America centrist Democrats will be partly to blame
Won't stop them from blaming all the people they alienated.
Weird so many in this thread seem to think if you insult people for not wanting to be genocided, they'll support the candidate you like. Make it feel more clear that these people don't actually care about them and just see them as pawns for their own goals.
"Vote for me to do shit you hate, moron! Wait... why are you staying home?"
If you refuse to vote for the option that will result in the fewest Palestinians being killed, you care more about your ideals than you do their lives. Full stop. You aren't an ally if you're content with letting the more deadly option win because the less deadly option is still lethal.
As I keep having to say, I'm voting for Biden.
The party needs to start trying to get back votes it's losing. That is if they care about beating Trump and not just having yet another opportunity to punch left and never right.
I know you are, that's why I find it interesting to engage with you. You understand what I'm saying if you're voting for Biden.
I don't disagree. I'm all for discussing what Democrats can realistically do so long as we agree that Trump is an existential threat that takes priority over everything else.
So, let's discuss it. We both know that outright telling Israel to go fuck itself isn't an option. What do you think would be the best, realistic way to stop their massacre while alienating the fewest voters overall and leveraging our relationship to put pressure on them?
These comments are crazy. No political party in power in the united states deserves support. Its those who cling to the democratic party who are "electing" trump by not moving to support a new alternate. Those who are promoting and supporting politicians who support genocide are those who are in the wrong and who are sabotaging progress.
I’m not clinging to the Democratic Party. I’m simply aware of how first past the post voting works.
That just tells you there can only be two dominant parties. Which parties are those two can change. Those who keep supporting democrats are still the ones preventing it from being another party. If it not democrats, it would be a different one...
I’ll bet you any amount of money that either Dems or reps win the next election. How much would you like to wager?
I'd bet its not democrats if people stopped voting for them.
I think its more that they kinda can't win. Trapped in the inertia of past governments propping up Israel...backing out of support fully is never going to happen. Best they can do is try to lean on Israel to ceasefire. Then of course there's the consideration for Jewish voters who support Israel, which iirc is a larger voting bloc than American Muslims.
Of course it is also amusing that Muslims are seemingly okay with getting Trump in, the guy who intentionally inflamed tensions in the Middle East.
Then of course there's also the danger of turning Dems against Muslims because of the perceived betrayal...which honestly I'd care a lot less about what happens to Muslims in America if they get Trump in.
Essentially, this is sorta like trying to create a hostage situation with a pistol at your own head.
I'd wager the majority of American Jews would actually approve of at least conditioning aid to Israel so they stop bombing civilian targets. And the ones that are pro-genocide, are probably already voting for Republicans.
You're probably not wrong. It's an impossibly difficult problem to determine exactly what every voter wants.
Then of course we have to wonder all the non-public things that are keeping the US tied to Israel...would make it a lot easier to understand why things are happening as they are.
For one, the occupation is an amazing source of tools and tactics that end up being used by cops in the US to
occupypolice certain neighbourhoods.It's a lot easier to not give a shit and just scream insults at anyone who's had enough.
Like you're doing in this entire thread? LMAO
Who have I insulted?
Dishonest discussion is insulting lol
All you've done is throw out supposed "gotcha" statements and added nothing to conversation. It makes me embarassed to fundamentally agree with you on things.
It's literally dipshits like you that undermine the cause of the left: head to far up your own ass to accept anything less than everything being what you want. Learn the reality of the situation before crying about how the dems did something that isn't what you think is best and turn your energy to actually achievable results
Yeah, it doesn't work when the person you're attempting to extract concessions from doesn't care if you pull the trigger. And it's evident that Democrats would prefer Trump to even attempting to represent these people.
See, the problem here is that the Muslims can do whatever they want in this scenario, but the bottom line is that they have to accept the same shit as everyone else.
If I'm being honest, this whole stunt just looks like trying to force the democratic party into doing what they want at the expense of other, more numerous voters.
For example, I have to accept that Biden isn't going to do everything I want like go hard after the wealthy or force through student loan forgiveness. However, him being in power means my LGBT friends and family, as well as any female relatives and friends have protection for their rights and bodily autonomy.
It's not a great choice to have to make because our system sucks, but I have to make that call because Republicans will absolutely make things worse. In the cold, calculating world of politics, if I had to choose between my friends and family having rights or Palestinians not being killed...I'd pick my friends and family 10/10 times. Of course I'd rather have both, but that's the reality of the situation.
Then of course there's the whole question of why those Muslim people are in America (yes, I'm aware of how dangerously close this line of thinking gets to dipshit conservatives bitching about immigrants). Is making their current home demonstrably worse for them really a good idea?
Yeah, voters having free will is a problem for Democrats.
You were already close to the line.
Like are you dense or just being intentionally dishonest? I'm not saying it is a problem the Muslims have free will: I'm saying the problem is that they are free to do what they wish, but their actions will have consequences for them that are likely to not be worth it, so they need to accept tradeoffs like everybody else.
And then you don't bother actually responding to my arguments. Maybe try that next time in order to get meaningful responses.
Accept tradeoffs like everybody else? When was the last time the republican-adjacent wing of the party had to accept any tradeoffs?
When they didn't successfully do all the horrible shit they wanted to do under Trump. When they failed to coup the US Government on Jan. 6. The fact that a nationwide abortion ban isn't in effect and Muslims are allowed to enter the country.
Bitch and cry all you want about "wahhh it's just accepting Fascism more slowly with the Dems." Go look at how the government actually votes on issues and see how much shit is stopped by the Dems, and how much actually positive legislation for people does get passed exclusively because of the Democrats.
I hate having to defend them, but I have to accept the reality that without them my life would be objectively worse.
Everyone in the comments focusing on literally only this election and ignoring what they said in their reasoning.
Yes they understand if Trump wins it will be worse in the next 4 years. They’re hoping that the democrats realize that putting a candidate just slightly less evil isn’t good enough anymore and they actually need to win votes instead of saying “we support marginally less genocide then the republicans” and that being good enough.
Not saying that’s going to fully work out, but people acting likes that’s crazy aren’t seeing the full picture. At a certain point the democratic establishment needs to be punished for its bullshit lesser of two evils otherwise it’ll continue to do it. Is now the best time? Maybe not but thats a much more in depth analysis than just reacting “oh they must love Trump then!?”
Punishing the lesser of two evils by rewarding the greater evil isn't going to lead in the direction you want it to.
Just it will, it it makes the lesser of two evils to turn to be actually good, instead of lesser evil.
Ones power in democracy isn't in given ones vote It is in withholding it. Your vote is your hostage and the political party is the hostage negotiator trying to get it from you.
If you give away the hostage before the bargaining even begins, you have no leverage. You are nobody, non-entity. Your opinion and your interests don't matter. Since you always release the hostage, before the negotiating starts.
At some point in comparative lesser of two evils must come the moment of "in absolute measures the evil is too much, even the lesser evil". Withold vote and the egotistical lesser evil, who doesn't want to lose to the greater evil has to listen to your concerns and turn course.
Until the first moment you withhold vote, they can happily slide in behind the greater evil just two microns behind them in the evil slide.
I'll take those two microns over actively chasing fascism.
But we all know it's a whole fucking lot more than two microns.
Rewarding genocide with a vote will ensure genocide.
You support genocide if you vote Biden.
Yes, yes, you're very clever. We get it.
One of two people is going to win the election in November. I'll take the one that isn't promising to deploy the military against anyone who doesn't vote for him.
Again they understand that for the next 4 years, the thought is after that
The last 4 years of a GOP president saw 3 supreme court seats that will cause brutal ripples though our country for 20-30yrs at least.
Thinking that "whatever happens will only last 4 yrs" is either wildly stupid or intentionally misleading.
It's a non-trivial assumption that there would even be a genuine election after that.
How well has that worked? Republicans won major victories in 2010 and 2016. Did we get a huge leftward swing between 2010-2016? Have Republicans been forced to moderate themselves since 2020?
There's a key mistake in your thinking. If Democrats lose, Republicans win, and when they win, they feel emboldened to push us as far right as possible. When they won in 2016, they took it as confirmation that Trumpism and fascism was the way to go.
Losing elections has never worked to push Democrats to the left. It's probably done the opposite actually, since Republican victories pull the country the other way.
The problem is that the Democratic Party interprets all losses as evidence that they haven't yet moved far enough to the right, and all wins as evidence that moving to the right works.
They've been running on Clinton's "third way" for three decades.
AOC and the squad are finally starting to turn it around.
And will continue doing so, win or lose, until elections are no longer a thing.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. What I'm saying is that if the farther right candidate wins, the next nominee is going to move right because that's where the voters are.
And that's ignoring the rest of the comments about if there will even be another election.
So they will help put someone in power that will remove fair elections? That makes no sense as a long term plan, imo it's more likely they are trying to push democrats a certain way but are not truly entertaining the notion of voting for a fascist.
Yes, because that worked out so well last time a block of Dems threw a fit and decided not to vote. The party definitely learned a lesson and would never do something like 2016 again, right?
It literally is crazy. It's psychotic to think that the party would change their mind about the system that holds them in power after another 4 years of Trump, assuming we even get to have a real election again at all. Project 2025 anyone? It's psychotic to think that all the harm that will come from another 4 years of Trump, now with a grudge, nothing left to lose, and a playbook of how to not be stopped is somehow worth the hope that Dems will change their mind. You know what made the party pick Biden in 2020? The four years of hell before it. You know what will guarantee a "moderate" Dem as the only option in perpetuity? Another 4 years of Trump. Allowing him to win doesn't move the party left, it moves them right to try and get people who actually fucking vote from the middle to move over. The closest we ever came to an actually left president was after 8 years of a moderate Dem.
I mean has going with the status quo worked for 50+ years (in the specific case of Palestine)? Clearly not? So makes sense they would try something else.
Just because the dems decide not to learn the actual lesson in 2016 means we should just eat shit forever?
As far as the party is concerned, we should like the taste of shit because they do.
The Dems have moved a LOT in 50 years in almost every aspect. You think the Dems of 50 years ago would have even tried to forgive student loans? Hell, even in 2016 it was laughed out of the park. Believe it or not, the Dems have moved on their position with Israel, just not enough to be hugely noticeable. The biggest change has been Israel increasing moving further right and the Dems staying where they have been/very slightly moving.
In the past few weeks we've seen Biden go from "Ceasefire is off the table" to "We helped organize a humanitarian pause." They just announced a plan to block violent settlers from the States. It's not much, and certainly not enough, but to act like the Dems have not moved on anything in 50 years is a level of stupid I cannot abide. Hell, the Dems of 50 years ago passed DOMA.
Why do you think they shifted their policy? It's because dem voters are threatening to not vote for them if they are shitty. Yeah, democrats have a problem with not voting together leading to 2016-like elections, but that type of event causes the party to correct themselves a little. It'd be better if they would actually learn the lesson though.
They won't because they are corporatists and reactionary, but maybe one day.
Exactly if it's a system which requires the export of genocide how can you tell the people being genocided that they should consent to that. Isn't trying to pressure the better option to not genocide you a good thing?
I'm sure there were a lot of protest votes making a similar rational choice against the increasingly unpopular and ineffective Social Democratic Party of Germany in 1933 too.
Don't act like if Trump wins this election he isnt going to try to stay in office again. Don't pretend that he won't erode the election process, or eliminate it if he could.
I don't like Biden. But look how close the fucking baboon came to overthrowing the government. Imagine him have competent people next time. People prepared to do what is necessary, to go as far as is necessary.
I saw their reasoning and it is flawed. We might not even get a 2028 election if Trump wins in 2024. We are heading to a christofascist dictatorship under the Republican party. Once they get power they are going to do everything they can to keep it.
It takes activism between elections to push the Democratic party further to the left. Abstaining spits in the face of our democracy and the people fighting to keep it. It does nothing to influence Democratic politicians.
We live in a two party system. If you are against one presidential candidate, then you are helping the other presidential candidate. Attempting to make Biden lose makes them pro-Trump, as Trump ultimately beneifts. They can say it is long term thinking, but that doesn't change the fact that Trump put three supreme court judges and many more lower court judges into office in one, four year term. Giving Republicans control is going to set us back decades.
It would be harder for Biden to get elected without support for the Jewish community, which leans heavily Democratic. I'm sure he's winning plenty of Jewish voters to make up for whatever loss this amounts to, if any.
Yup, they're about as dumb as the Sanders or bust people.
They want change then vote/volunteer in the damn primary, volunteer to get rid of the first past the post bullshit.
Doing this, this is just 2016 levels of fucking stupid.
The leopards are going to have their bellies full of face meat this election season...
I'm sure all those Muslims are real glad they voted Genocide Joe last elections. Good thing their faces weren't eaten. Oh wait.
Spoken like somebody who is cluelessly buttering their face in front of the leopard cages.
Maybe… Just maybe this is an attempt to get Biden to finally listen. Because it sure seems like he hasn’t been. All the people in this thread sure are quick to write off how it feels to be Muslim/Arab in America right now.
Everyone saying "this is a vote for democracy" apparently doesn't see the irony in demanding everyone vote for a single candidate no matter what or democracy fails. Like isn't the whole point of democracy having the ability to pressure politicians to make concessions to your cause?
So many BlueAnon comments too. Yeah for sure this is just a massive Russian psyop, definitely not people trying to stop their ethnic group from being genocided 🙄
Bring on the downvotes.
If Trump gets into office, Democracy does fail.
If this were an election where the opposition was someone like Romney or McCain, sure. I would agree with you. But this is where the opposition wants to start a dynasty where here and his descendants are dictators for life.
And if you think genocide in Gaza is bad, just wait until Trump gets done with queer people and Latinos.
Or just wait until what kind of genocide happens when Trump is backing Bibi to the hilt.
Do people forget he moved the embassy to Jerusalem? Do they really think he wants a free Palestine?
Trump could back literal death camps in the West Bank and they'll say, "Well, at least I didn't vote for the lesser evil!"
Since you guys are so brain-broken by the status quo of American politics, let me break down the goal of these people.
Threaten to not vote for party because they are doing bad thing
Party sees significant numbers of people threatening not to vote for them.
Party changes it's policies.
People vote for party.
It's like you're completely incapable not thinking in black-and-white, and don't understand it's actually possible to leverage politicians. No one wants Trump, and if he wins no one is to blame but the Democrats.
Isn't Biden pretty much the only reason Netanyahu agreed to a cease fire? Hasn't he been warning Israel from the beginning not to follow the same path and make the same mistakes as the US after 9/11? It's also regularly reported his administration is pressuring Israeli leaders to stop what they're doing to civilians. Given that the US genuinely cannot directly control what the Netanyahu administration does, I guess I'm asking what you want him to do differently?
Make US aid contingent on not committing genocide would be a great help. Reagan stopped the bombing of West Beirut with a literal phone call. The US has that much influence on Israel.
Biden does not control that aid. Congress does.
Doesn't mean Biden is doing anything about it. Hell he didn't even condemn the warcrimes or call for a ceasefire.
You said:
That is not something Biden can do. It is not under his control.
We don't actually know how much Biden has really been doing. By all indications, Qatar and Egypt were more influential in getting the ceasefire to happen.
And the US just sent a bunch of new high powered weaponry over to Israel for destroying buildings better: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-sends-israel-2-000-pound-bunker-buster-bombs-for-gaza-war-82898638
And apparently one of the four main people in the US government with influence on proceedings is a pro-genocide maniac who is happy for things to proceed as they are so long as it makes money: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/biden-national-security-adviser-brett-mcgurk-israel-palestine_n_656936c0e4b07b937ff4287f?4q
No. Joe Biden greenlit the genocide and barely even pays lop service to peace
Yeah, but Democrats don't listen.
Maybe... Just maybe, don't threaten to throw the whole country, including yourself, under the bus just because you can't completely change a country's position they'd had for over 50 years in 2 months.
I’m likely voting for Joe Biden. But I’m not an Arab or Muslim. I’m a Jewish guy who can see how fucked it is to have to vote for a guy that doesn’t believe how many Palestinians were killed or is actively throwing gobs of cash to the country that is indiscriminately bombing friends, family, people who are the same religion, who are the same race. I’m not in a position to judge. Keyboard warriors such as yourself are.
I'm a trans, jewish, atheist, social democrat. I'm on the chopping block as much as you or anyone else if Trump wins in 2024. I'm going to be warrioring my keyboard up all of your asses if it means more people vote for Biden. Under a fascist dictatorship, I could very well be too dead to hear your judgments so keep them coming.
Israel is committing genocide in the Gaza strip against Palestinians. That doesn't mean I'm going to go easy on people who inadvertently enable ethnic cleansing and genocide here in the US. Two wrongs don't make a right. Our imperfect democracy is the best tool we have to enact positive change. Once it's gone, typing about it won't bring it back. So I'm going to type about it for as long as I can.
We have until November 5th, 2024 to convince people to vote against fascism. That means pointing out abstaining from voting or voting third party helps Trump and the fascists. A fascist takeover doesn't benefit the Palestinians in the short term and it doesn't benefit them in the long term. Biden is a hard pill to swallow, and we are going to have to remember that when we try to sell people on him, but silence in the face of fascism is death. edit: typo
Incredibly shortsighted. This conflict has no easy solution and everyone involved wants Biden to take their side.
The trouble here is that the democrats coalition has stakes in both sides. This entire conflict was practically a gift to the republicans.
Biden will win some and lose some no matter what he does. He's probably not too concerned about this.
Ok, since it's not a big deal and he doesn't need to worry, no blaming these people if he loses. If he doesn't need their votes to win, they can't cause his loss.
Where'd you glean all that?
Right here. Don't know how you missed it.
I think you misread this, if you gleaned from this what you said
I think I read it just fine.
the original post suggested not worrying about appeasing certain people on the issue as there is a significant support from all sides.
That's different than whether people who didn't vote for Biden can be blamed for anything. When democracy itself is on the ballot it's hard to justify voting against it, regardless of some foreign policy grievance.
Honest question: what would Trump be doing right now? Nuking Gaza? Nuking Iran? "If you're not with us, you're against us"? And I'm sure Fox News would be backing him up how the US needs to invade Iran.
Probably nothing. I think his foreign policy resembles something if an isolationist one. But Israel is a wildcard when it comes to US politics so who knows.
Were you out sick the time Trump assassinated a top Iranian general in Iraq and almost caused WW3 over it?
Rounding up "terrorist sympathizers" domestically while encouraging Israel to go full genocide and rattling all the sabers at Iran. It would be a complete shitshow and probably spiral out of control quickly.
Every election cycle it seems to happen. Republicans mostly put aside their individual beefs and vote against the same candidates. Meanwhile, everyone else slap fights and struggles to come to any consensus. Positive change can happen. Fuck me if we agree on what to tackle first. I'd be rather impressed if there wasn't so much on the line.
Wow I wonder why they're choosing this course of action with comments like this. Utterly surprising
Galaxy IQ
Jews for Hitler was a German Jewish organization during the Weimar Republic and the early years of Nazi Germany that eventually came out in support of Adolf Hitler.
For all those castigating them for not supporting Biden: imagine the issue is abortion, and the Democrats are upholding a bipartisan anti-abortion consensus, the only difference being they feel bad about it sometimes. Would you still be blasting the women's rights activists trying to raise a stink, and tell them to shut up because the alternative is worse?
Yes. That’s not a hard question to answer.
One of two candidates is winning the presidential election. The Republican or the Democrat. That’s it. Those are the two to pick from.
Henry Cuellar is a pretty good example of why I don't have to tax my imagination too severely on that one.
If one candidate vowed to stop abortion and the other candidate vowed to end elections, violently suppress dissent and install themselves as a dictator, I sure as hell would vote for the anti-abortion candidate. I would hate it, but I would still do it.
If one candidate vowed to stop abortion and the other candidate vowed to support an increase in the minimum wage, the Democratic Party will support the anti-choice candidate.
I know this because it happened in 2022.
And also stop abortion, and execute anyone who ever had an abortion.
Like, it's not even a case of "This is justified because they're better on the issue and I'm a single issue voter." It's an issue of "I'm voting for the WORSE candidate on the issue who is also WORSE in every conceivable way and will likely remove my ability to express myself in the civic process because the single issue I'm voting on isn't supported strongly enough."
When there are only two viable options, the only rational move is to vote for the one that does the least damage. Otherwise, you might as well not vote. That's just how it works in a FPTP system. And good luck changing that in America any time soon.
Why do you think USA has abysmal voter turn out... ... ... ... ...
The important thing is to spend time asking those questions in 2023 in order to allow Republicans to implement Project 2025.
Republicans can’t believe their luck. Like, did they even have to pay for this one?
On the other hand, Biden is probably adding to the already overwhelming percentage of Jews who vote for Democrats. Overall, probably not going to make much of a difference even if some Muslims choose to heed these calls.
It might. Michigan has a lot of Muslims and it's a battleground state.
In Michigan, 25 percent of the population identity as evangelical Christians and 30 percent of those typically vote for Democrats. They probably wouldn't have been been very happy with an anti-Israel stance. Neither would the Jewish community.
No matter what any president would have done in this situation, they would have won some and lost some.
republican psyop.
Most religious people are not good on this sort of reasoning.
Americans would deserve everything they would get and worse if they elected Trump over Biden because of a conflict overseas.
They've shown they can be self destructive having elected Trump before but if the Muslim community legitimately thinks that the guy who banned Muslims from immigrating as one of his first moves in office would be any more friendly to the Muslim community, then they'd deserve their fates.
Be nice if the leaders endorsed third parties instead of just going anti-democrat. Gotta give people the alternative and keep that vote relevant.
Voting third party or sitting at home is the same damn thing when it comes to effecting the outcome of the election.
Excellent example of why nothing will ever change in the US.
With the electoral college, going to vote is the same as not voting in the vast majority of places with regards to the federal elections.
Michigan, which contains a lot of Arab Americans, is one of those places where votes very much do matter.
Indiana went for Obama in 2008. Don't make assumptions.
Reagan got almost every electoral vote in 84, with the exceptions of Minnesota and DC. But in landslide wins, your vote matters even less.
Ok then I guess never vote. Problem solved. You do you.
Not trying to get the votes of people whose votes you need is dangerous negligence.
Dumbass tokens spending astroturfed money.
Really odd to watch these pro Netanyahu Muslims.
The actual idiots are the people calling them idiots. If the democratic party wants their votes then stop funding a genocide in Palestine. Neither party represents them or even tried to court them, so why should they vote for someone who only promises not to hurt them even more?
Americans are brainwashed by the two party system. It's always been "vote for the lesser evil'. It will continue to be that way until you do something about it.
If voters still support Biden after condoning genocide they deserve to lose. Rewarding the party with continued power after their recent actions enables them to do it again and again with each time getting progressively worse. This is the brain rot from accepting 'lesser evil' that's grown so large that ethnic cleansing is now acceptable
What a hot take. The only brain rot here is yours. Nobody with any sense of nuance is saying "it's acceptable." You can hate what's going on in Israel without also letting the fascists take over. Choosing the lesser evil means the greater evil doesn't win. Also, what do you suppose the fascists will do?
You are presuming there's a viable third option in this scenario. If you can't mobilize voters to vote for a third option en masse, there's effectively only two options. I'll take the one that won't also take my human rights away.
The fascists have already taken over, and democrats helped enable it. But taking away the human rights and the right to live overseas is ok?
Prove it. Start by defining "fascist." Then, demonstrate how the US has become a fascist state.
No. But if it's a choice to keep my human rights and take away someone else's versus take away both mine and theirs, I'll take the former. Life isn't always fair, and sometimes you have to make shit choices.
More importantly however, your scenario again presumes Biden is the cause of the loss of those human rights, that if we didn't do a thing, Israel wouldn't be bombing Palestine in retaliation anyway. Yet, who was it that secured a temporary ceasefire to get humanitarian aid in, release hostages, and let civilians escape?
If your entire argument boils down to, "I'm going to turn my nose up at Biden to feel ideologically superior," you are about as politically savvy as single-issue conservatives.
That's ironic coming from people whos single issue is keeping the red fascists out of office so their blue ones can stay in.
And you still haven't defined what a fascist is or how they've taken over the country. Words have meaning, and if you can't do those two things, your arguments are meaningless.
I learned a long time ago I could list bullet points of proof and shitlibs would still cry 'but Trump.' Fascism can never gain a foothold without a complicit liberal party supporting them
A.k.a: "I'm bullshitting, and I'm hoping desperately you don't call my bluff."
List them or admit you are unjustifiably spouting nonsense. A claim is not evidence.
"I want to argue semantics now."
I notice you didn't either. Know why? Because you won't. You know that if you used a definition people accepted, Biden doesn't fit it, so you can't keep using that as some kind of rhetorical club to feel superior.
GOP has openly called for actual genocide
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republican-calls-for-all-palestinians-to-die-in-viral-video/ar-AA1jHM13
Republicans and Democrats have always been on the same side regarding war. And most other things.
A single republican out of a red state calling for killings is far different than the leader of a party, and the one that can stop it, allowing it
And the Republicans would surely be purely on the side of Muslims...hmm...
You do know that's the alternative, right?
Because a ban is so much worse than murder... Jesus fucking Christ
LMAO, this guy seriously thinks it will just be a ban...
Palestinians deaths are in the hands of everyone allowing their murder to happen. Which includes Dem voters
What a silly reduction.
If you support someone that condones murder, you are complicit in their action
If YoU sUpPoRt SoMeOnE tHaT cOnDoNeS mUrDeR, yOu ArE cOmPlIcIt In ThEiR aCtIoNs.
Muslims bad?
Is Steve Bannon's hand in this too?
Based. If you have to choose between Hitler and Stalin just stay home and don't vote.
There should be consequences for publications hosting fascist propaganda
So what does this conflict have to do with Islam, exactly?